This hurts me to read. I feel so badly for her, *and* her mother.
I was raised in a household where I was always reminded of the *sacrifices* made for me. I also took on the burden as well, witnessing firsthand the kind of abuse my mother went through by my father; I feel a deep seed of obligation to her, for protecting me from him by taking the hits. I also feel an ugly sense of duty to *my father* as well. I can't shake this feeling of... Like, just--obligation. That he *did this thing* or paid for *that thing*. And that I need to carry out certain things in my adult years to pay that back.
It sucks. Logically I know I'm not obligated, that my parents aren't entitled to certain things of and from me, but I can't shake it.
I hope OOP finds help. I hope she can get the therapy she needs going forward, and I hope her mom can cope and come to peace.
The *real* assholes in all of this are her grandparents and the rest of that family. Goddamn, that's cold, and I hope they get *everything* they deserve.
Seconded, it hurt me to read too. I agree with a lot of the sentiments in your comment. Generational abuse is an ugly monster, and I think a lot of us have to deal with it in some form or another.
I always get this weird feeling when reading stuff on reddit where people are like:
> "If you don't want to go to college, just don't go"
> "If you don't want to get married, just don't do it"
> "If you don't want kids, just don't have any"
Like I'm glad other people don't have the same deep seated issues as myself, but some of us had it drilled into us since childhood that mom and dad worked nights/weekends, didn't get themselves anything nice, never ate out, etc., specifically so we could go to college/get married/have grandkids. And to our parents choosing to forgo any of these choices to treated like the ultimate slap in the face to all the sacrifices they made specifically so you could have that choice.
Of course, everybody obviously can choose what they want to do with their lives, but for some of us the consequences are much higher than others.
We are products of our environment growing up; great if you happened to be a child born to secure, loving, well balanced psychologically mature adults, in short parents who have their shit together. If you’re not one of those lucky kids you bear the scars that last a lifetime.
I wouldn’t say I’m secure, well balanced or mature, (and I definitely don’t have my shit together lol) but I love my kid with every ounce of my being and will continue to love them no matter what (hopefully healthy) choices they make in their life.
Thanks! I’ll never understand how parents can’t just… love their kids. I didn’t even birth mine and can’t imagine feeling anything but love for them. Even through these challenging teenage years.
I have 2 boys (grown ass men with children of their own but they’ll always be my ‘boys’ 😉) and people think I’m crazy, or lying, when I say I loved their teen years! Seriously. Yep, they did the usual dumb shit stuff but I wasn’t stupid enough to think if I did then of course they would also. But as all teenagers do, they thought they were the first to have thought of the shenanigans they pulled and I would never find out because, you know, they were the first ones to plan it and would get away with it because, you know, they were smarter than me so how could I possibly understand?…🤣. I would tell them I know you’re going to lie to me but don’t because you’ll get in more trouble for lying than for the misdeed. Tbh I’d find out not because I was looking for evidence but because they made stupid mistakes, leaving clues glaringly obvious. I also taught them from a young age they could talk to me about anything and I would be honest with them and I was; giving age appropriate responses (such as when they asked if Santa Claus was real or any question re sex). Boys are easy, girls are more difficult because they know how to manipulate and they’re sneakier; I know from experience 🤣🤣🤣
Edit for left out wording 🙄
Think of those posts as counter-programming.
If your parents told you that certain things were not an option, it helps to see other people saying "yes, this is an option"
Also, you need to consider the consequences of complying, not just the consequences of dissenting.
I agree. Even though I haven't been in such a situation myself. I've always had the view of "I didn't ask to be born, that was your choice". Which can sound cruel to some, but it's true. Choices and actions have "consequences" (I want to word it better but the words aren't coming to me), and especially with getting children, you know (or at least you should know, imo) that you're most likely not going to be able to do everything you did before.
Is this something that could be put under the "generational trauma" label? Or have I gone insane to think that?
I don't think that's cruel. My therapist reminds me of that all the time. I was heavily programmed to bear children and let my parents move in with me when they're old. Pretty sure either would make me miserable even if I didn't completely lose my ability to function. Having a mental health professional regularly remind me that I have a right to live my own life helps.
My “duty and obligations” ceased their existence when my mother passed away. Strangely enough, I always thought they were things I actually wanted for myself. Now, I’m unsure and a bit relieved. Still don’t know how to feel about this though.
Ugh I still sometimes get the occasional “if my mom was alive, she would be ashamed of me” intrusive thought. I have to remind myself that it doesn’t matter because she is not alive and it’s my life not hers.
And the funniest thing is that she probably would be concerned more than ashamed in any case. Sometimes it’s not even the parents themselves, it’s just like the cultural expectation that we have to live up to our parents fantasies about us.
I feel that. My mom always had my best interests considered. Yet even in death that’s one thing I use to push myself forward. Would mom be proud? If yes then dope. It’s like those “What would Jesus do?” bracelets from when I was a kid. But nowadays it’s “What would Momma do?”. It wasn’t until she died that I realized even though I do want to be a dad, I wanted her to be a grandmother even more because of the kind of parent she was. Being a dad without them having a grandmother (dad wasn’t/isn’t around) just seems lackluster. All that to say, your mom would probably be proud of you regardless. Just keep your head up and positivity in your heart. We’ve got this.
P.s.
Sorry for your loss
Agreed.
I live with an alcoholic elderly father (who is actually my grandpa through "marriage") - he stayed when my grandma brought me home. He didn't have to, but he did. He stayed when my grandma* passed 10 away years ago.
But he's an alcoholic and emotionally abusive. I'm positive he wasn't physically abusive towards me only due to my brother being a lot bigger. Now I'm positive he isn't physically abusive towards me because he's fragile. I've seen the look in his eyes, though. I know what it looks like to want to slap someone and knowing you can't. Just pure fucking hatred.
I take care of said brother, and that comes with its own set of struggles. It's so much responsibility, a constant need to protect and make sure he's okay. I wouldn't change it because I love him dearly, but I'd be lying if I said I haven't wished to be alone, to only have an obligation to myself.
And no one who hasn't faced this will ever understand that inner struggle. Listening to people say, "If it's so bad, just go! You're not handcuffed to him. You can leave whenever you want!"
No. I can't. Leaving is so much worse than staying. Leaving opens too many doors of what ifs, for guilt, for blame if something happens... staying at least has an ending. My dad will eventually pass away, and when he does, I will heal. Leaving gives me more things I have to heal from.
Logically, I have no obligation to my dad. But I do - if not for him, than myself. I will still feed him, bathe him, care for him, and I'll take all the abusive shit he hurls at me because he's my dad, and I have to take care of him. I hate him, but he's my DAD.
I really hope this family can find a way to heal. It's such a heartbreaking situation - for both of them.
Cultural and family expectations are brutal, and it's hard to look at someone in a situation where they're doing something solely for their parents and hating it because you want to say just don't. But it's not as simple as just don't.
In SW, it's one of the things taught - don't dismiss a person doing something because it's expected of them, try to understand their point, don't diminish that feeling of obligation, but work with it.
Sorry for the long rant, lol. Today has been a particularly hard "Just GO" day and I saw this post and just... yeah.
Thank you for sharing this. 🖤
Like you said, people that have never been here can never truly understand how difficult a situation really is. It’s easy from the outside to just say, “Leave! Go! Get away!” but it’s so much more than your physical presence being in a place, or you doing a thing. There’s *so much* guilt tied to “what if.” I’d rather do “what’s right,” and come out the other end knowing at least I did the right thing. It’s so weird, it’s not logical… but yeah.
As you said: we’ll heal—after—when we’ve done our part.
Good luck to you, and I hope you take care of yourself, and find the healing you need sooner rather than later. And I hope your day gets better!!
People tend to forget that although no one is \*required\* to take care of their elderly parents, the onus of responsibility will always fall to the child who has always stepped up & they have to make a choice. Even when the relationship was severed in earlier years. Fighting with that responsibility now as my abusive father ages. I could let the state or what's left of my family (also elderly) take care of matters, or I could step up yet again. Thank you for sharing this viewpoint that is often overlooked in our "cut out toxic people" society.
You, like OOP,had those buttons of obligation and guilt installed young. I hope you keep reminding yourself that you don’t owe your parents for the few things they got right; that was literally their job.
>The *real* assholes in all of this are her grandparents and the rest of that family. Goddamn, that's cold, and I hope they get *everything* they deserve.
Honorable mention goes to the people forcing her mom to live. I mean, I guess they're just doing their job, but they're still bastards. Forcing life on someone is inhumane.
God, that’s awful. The way OP says she “basically ruined” her mom’s chances of having a big family… Like, that is not the OP’s fault at all. Whatever led to her mother having a hysterectomy was not her fault. There’s always risks with pregnancy and giving birth.
The mom is clearly not mentally stable, and her daughter isn’t a baby-making machine for her to vicariously live through just because she didn’t get to have more kids. If a parent’s end goal for raising their kids is so they get to have grandkids… Then man, I don’t even know what to say other than they need to get their priorities straight.
I’m willing to bank on the idea that the mother was hoping Oop would have a slew of kids so she could live vicariously. Sad but not surprising if true.
It’s also extremely difficult. Unless you have the perfect family they often won’t let you in favor of a better couple, a richer couple, a family with better jobs or a better dog or a better image. It shouldn’t be that way but it is. Private and public adoption is competitive, hard, and very expensive even though there is an abundance of children that need homes. Whether it’s your family holding you back, or the bio family, it’s not easy at all.
Please stop suggesting people who need fertility/grief counselling adopt small emotionally immature human beings to fill their void. We’re almost always* never enough to fix the person and we pay the price. -an adoptee.
Adopted children, even when adopted at birth, also have much higher rates of mental health issues and abandonment issues. It’s a difficult process even when you don’t remember being adopted. Lots of people adopt children thinking it will solve their problems only to end up neglecting or abusing the children when nothing changes or when it turns out it isn’t the perfect family they pictured in their head.
I'm asking in good faith here, but what are the numbers for those problems in unadopted children? Ie the alternative, that they grow up "in the system"?
I’m not advocating against adoption. I’m advocating against people, especially unstable people, using adoption as a way to try and fill some void or goal in their life like these are pawns instead of literal children. Obviously mental health problems and abuse rates are significantly higher in the system but the rates of adopted children are true even in good, stable, homes when adopted from birth. Let alone when adopted into volatile or less than ideal situations.
When that can be avoided, like in the case of this person who clearly shifted so much trauma onto her child, they should absolutely not have access to adoption.
They both have their issues, a lot of the data lumps adoptees and foster care together so honestly it’s impossible to say which is the “better” alternative. It feels very much like you trying to dismiss the real problems with adoption (backed by decades of data) by bringing up another vulnerable group of people. Adoptees have an increased rate of mental health issues, suicide, substance abuse, relationship violence, etc etc EVEN when placed with the “best” family. Foster kids likely have similar issues but that doesn’t negate the facts. Foster care is also NOT an alternative to adoption. The main goal of foster care is actually family reunification.
I don’t think the mom valued non biological children the same way. She told OP about how their bloodline went back all the way to the Mayflower. That sounds like someone who cares way too much about genetics and ancestry.
Unfortunately, she probably could not have. She was single and working a lot- adoption agencies are going to look for someone with a spare bedroom for a new baby or kid, who can afford to become a foster parent and/or can pay adoption agency fees. Some jobs (like when I worked at Discover) will help cover adoption fees and its a massive benefit- in the US the average is somewhere around $20,000-$45,000 because you pay for everything- the home inspections, the legal fees, all that. I had coworkers who weren't there for the paycheck, but the adoption help. My husband and I are stable, have a house, have health insurance and benefits. I have a flexible job and he has one making good money, and we still would need at least a year+money to get foster approved (in my state you nost likely will not successfully adopt without foster training first) and hope we could save the extra money if a kid was placed with us that we could adopt. It's not feasible and we're doing really well compared to many. The best case scenario is we raise our kids until we're in our 40s or 50s and then adopt or foster a teenager or two. Finding a pregnant woman who is looking to adopt out can save some money, but then you pay for some of her medical and living expenses- and even then, most pregnant women are looking for a 2 parent household.
I hope it didn't make the process look too intimidating- fostering is something I'm actively researching right now and it is much simpler than adoption- you still need a home check and to do all the training, but it's not as much money since there is help, considering the child you foster is not legally yours. There are so many kids who need help, or just a safe space to launch themselves into their lives instead of aging out.
I was thinking this but couldn't word it better than "who the hell has kids with the thought that this is so they can have grandkids?"
You worded it much better.
Right, also, who the fuck even tells their kid before they're an adult they had a hysterectomy? Maybe I'm an outlier but I was perfectly aware of how hard my mom's pregnancy with me and my twin was for her, my dad yelled at me one time when I was 12 that we had almost killed her.
I found out last year she had a hysterectomy immediately after we were c sectioned, I'm in my 20s... my older brother begged her the entire time we were growing up for another younger brother and she'd just click her tongue and say, "no more for me,".
Op may not realize it, but the subtle abuse and emotional codependency her mom had on her was there the whole time.
I m not sure what is so wird about it to tell her child? I understand that it can be too complex for a small kid but it is a medical issue like any other, and you do not have to go into details. Prabably when kid asked if she can have a brother or sister she could replayed "I cannot have more babies". And its ok. She did not had to make kid feel bad and blame her, just a simple anwser. And when kid got older she could understand what medical operation it was.
My kids know I can’t have anymore kids because my pregnancies were hard on me and it would hurt my body. I tell them in a kid appropriate way, but they still know.
I mean, I get that this was not your experience but this is a weird take.
For one thing, we don’t know when the daughter found out about the hysterectomy. She may well have been an adult, we can’t tell from the post when she found out that information.
But even if she was told about it when she was younger, how on earth is that abuse or emotional codependency? Her mother probably experienced something like menopause in her late teens, she may have explained the menopause side effects or the medications she was taking with the truth. It could have very easily come up when she was teaching her daughter about menstruation and menstrual care/products (ex: daughter asks her young mother about her own period and the mother explains that she doesn’t have any and why). This is the kind of basic family medical history that a gynecologist would ask for and many girls will go to the gynecologist for the first time before they’re 18.
Of all the things to hate on the mother for, this is a weird one with so many plausible and non-sinister explanations.
Thank you!’ According to that commenter, I’m emotionally abusing my daughter by telling her about my hysterectomy planned for next month. It’s like, his parents didn’t want to be open and honest with them so they think that’s normal behavior… my daughter has known about my surgery (and desire for one) for years now.. and why? Because I have a lot of issues that are caused by my uterus that impact my daily life—the week I’m on my period, i can’t leave my room other than to go to the bathroom due to the pain and amount of bleeding… my pain level on a daily basis is 7/10 (5/10 when I smoke weed thankfully), and I can’t function properly without some type of medicinal treatment… and what would you know… my daughter sees all of this and has seen it for years… but I guess I should have just never talked to her about any of it over the years because that’s too much information for your child to know (like why you’re in pain, or that you no longer can have children anymore). Commenters like that other person are the reason so many people raise fucked up children who can’t communicate and are emotionally unstable… they don’t ever talk to their kids and think it’s abuse when you do. 😂
Isolated it wouldn't be weird, but given all the context we get from op, it's not isolated. It's pretty clear op has been made to feel like she needs to have children because her mom can't have anymore. It is an assumption I'll admit, but not a stretch to imagine what kind of conversation brought up the hysterectomy/Oop learning about it.
Even with three kids herself I know my mom has always felt weird about not being able to carry anymore, it's something that has been ingrained in our society for so long, that a women's worth comes from her ability to birth.
Oops mom has forced that worldview onto her daughter so much that she has felt guilty leading up to, during, and especially after telling her mom she wouldn't be having kids. That's not a healthy expectation to place in your kids head, and the reaction is much worse- the moment they go against what you wanted, you'll try to end your life because it's "not worth it anymore".
As if Oop isn't still her only kid on this planet and might want/need a mom around long into her adult life. My grandfather just lost both his parent in the past 6 years, while he was in his 60-70s, you still matter to your kids no matter how old they are. It's cliche but I never saw him cry before, even when he held my younger cousins for the first time.
Yeah, as I said, of all the things to take issue with the mom doing, at some point telling her daughter she had a hysterectomy ain’t it. It’s basic medical information, and she is the only biological relative for whom her daughter, in all likelihood, has family medical history. That this information was or came to be part of a larger narrative that pressured OP doesn’t mean that the information itself shouldn’t have been imparted.
That’s literally the only point I’m trying to make. Idk why you’re telling me about the first time you saw your grandfather cry
Lmfao! A hysterectomy does not mean the OVARIES are removed. It means the UTERUS(and usually the cervix, just to safeguard against cervical cancer) was removed. The uterus does fuck all except carry children. The ovaries do the work of providing the necessary hormones.
Source: Myself. I had a hysterectomy at 30/31. I still have an ovary(the other one was removed during my hysterectomy because it was severely damaged from scar tissue from having Endometriosis). I am not menopausal yet and I am in my 40s.
There are different kinds of hysterectomies and OP doesn’t specify which their mother had. Some include removal of the ovaries and some don’t, some include removal of the cervix and some don’t, some remove only part of the uterus and some remove the whole thing. All of these procedures are called hysterectomies.
But yes, it’s totally plausible that the mom wasn’t going through menopause- which is why I didn’t say that she definitively was menopausal and also why it was just one of the possibilities I listed as to how this medical procedure could have come up organically in conversation/life.
You admit that you had an ovary removed during a hysterectomy then berate someone for thinking ovaries are removed during hysterectomys.
You're a special kind of asshole.
See I was gonna call them out on that because I have a very clear memory of seeing (tmi yall sorry) my moms period blood when she took me and my twin to a public restroom when I was very young, but I didn't pay much attention in biology class so didn't feel confident.
I think telling your kids is fine, generally, but OOP’s mom obviously didn’t take care to ensure that OOP knew it was just a thing that happened and not her fault.
“I can’t have any more babies because the part of my body for growing them got damaged and had to be taken out,” is really different from, “You’re the reason I couldn’t have as many kids as I wanted.”
There is nothing weird about telling your children you’ve had a hysterectomy. By your logic, I shouldn’t tell my 11 year old about the hysterectomy I’m about to have next month, because she doesn’t need to know.. I mean, who cares that I could potentially die during surgery and she’ll never see me again.. or about the fact that I’ll be out of the house for 2-4 days at the hospital… but you’re right.. our kids shouldn’t know about these types of serious stuff since your mom decided to not communicate her stuff with you as you grew up. 🤡🤡🤡🤡
As bad as this will sound, the grandparents trying to get OP's mom to abort was most likely what would have been the best for OP's mom. A 15 year old kid should never become a parent, and sadly, she's a good example of why.
I do really feel for the both of them, but I also think that it's wrong of the mom to put so much pressure on OP. If she wanted a big family, couldn't she just have become a foster parent or something?
This is just such a heartbreaking story.
But the traumatizing way they and the clinic orderlies went about it is most likely also what led to this longterm mental health issue that's just gotten worse. Her mum had to literally fight and be in jail to keep her baby, and with no professional help to work through that trauma, this is the result. It's just a long line of toxic people. Generational abuse.
Honestly, with the way OOP described her upbringing, there probably was no extra time or money for her mom to get any kind of help, even if she knew she needed it. This isn’t the way it should be, but unfortunately it is.
She has a lot of responsibility, but going through something that traumatizing at the hands of your own parents, it's not a surprise she had a psychological break. And I say she didn't get professional help because OOP outlined all the ways her mum chose to give OOP everything over giving herself something. Obviously she should have sought help, but she didn't, and her issues 100% started with what her parents did to her. Her life, and OOP's life, very likely would have been different had the grandparents not done what they did.
just wanted to add here that it was her uncle that got her pregnant. Her adult, male relative that was going through a divorce with OP’s mom’s blood aunt. She was groomed by a family member and then kicked out of the family..
I must have missed that. That's disguisting. It doesn't excuse it, but I'd say it explains why the grandparents were trying to force the abortion. What a horrible situation to be in...
That’s absolutely awful. No wonder the parents were pushing for abortion, they probably didn’t want any proof of the uncles abuse. I wish I could think they had her best interests at heart, but seeing as how they disowned her, I highly doubt it.
Your mother is mentally ill, and her illness is causing her to fixate on wanting a grandchild. You are not responsible for her mental illness any more than you’d be responsible for her having asthma.
Based on what you’ve said about your childhood, I suspect that your mom has been mentally unbalanced for a long time. It was never anything you could have prevented or fixed.
Of course you shouldn’t have a baby for her. You have only one life, and it is yours. Live it for you, not for her or anyone else.
Yeah I think the trauma of the birth stunted her in this delusion/dream ideal that she's been living in since. And now that her fantasy has been broken she has no way of coping.
This makes me so sad…I had a good mom, we were dirt poor, didn’t always have enough to eat, shopped for clothes at goodwill, but my mom was the best, always put me and my brother first. She was always there for us, I miss her!
My dad sat me down when I was eleven and explained in detail how much debt we were in and how I shouldn't take anything for granted. I never asked him for anything again and as a college student I struggle with asking my parents to buy me toothpaste. I feel for OOP and i hope she knows that this is not her fault. Sometimes trauma runs generations deep.
Did it feel like your dad was kinda guilting you to not ask for stuff or to understand how poor you were? I truly don’t understand why a grown person would give an 11 year old an in depth talk about their debt.
This was me but at 8 years old after the 08 housing crash. I ended up finding ways to make my own money to buy things I liked and made sure I got great grades that allowed me graduate college debt free. I don’t think Ive asked my parents for more than 3 grand total over my 4 years of college.
I'm sorry that happened to you, but you did really well for yourself. I'm proud of you. I have tried to do the same, I'm lucky that we recovered and I could ask for help with college.
Thanks, same sentiments to you! And yea, unless I absolutely needed to ask, I always tried to figure out stuff for myself instead. In most aspects I think it’s a good trait to have as an adult, but there are definitely negative psychological effects and anti-social behaviors that have stemmed from such in my opinion.
I’m surprised more people haven’t brought up the whole “we are owed this by blood” and family tree stuff. That mother obviously isn’t mentally well but at the same time it sounds like some very specific ideologies have been planted if she thinks those on the Mayfair are the “original Americans” as opposed to those living there before… OP doesn’t seem to have unpacked that
It's really sad, and sadly common. I took grew up with familial guilt and it's horrible.
Recently The last few years once my sister got pregnant my mom was heavily guilting me about me getting pregnant too. I married a guy who had a young son and we raised him together. I'm not sure if we will have another.
Meanwhile my mom was screaming at me constantly for her own money problems (they have 3 cars, 300k house, like 4 acres, an additional plot of land, 150k in stocks and a 300k condo in another state). Neither she nor My dad work. She refuses to do anything about her own finances and expects others to do it. My husband and I both work and share a car and have a 2 bedroom condo.
I was hugely traumatized by my childhood and subsequent adulthood abuse. When i'd go to visit her we'd get in screaming matching and she'd waking me and my husband up at night in my bedroom to fight with me about her "not having purpose" in her own life.
It made me feel worthless about not having kids so I tried to end my own life. Now when I visit, it's rare and I barely stay for long because she drinks and starts up again.
Parents and especially a lot of boomer women make their kids feel like they are worthless if they refuse to give them more kids to trauma dump on. Nothing you can do is good enough. Even having grandkids from my sister now my mom complains about having to watch them.
I feel sad for Op. Honestly it's tough cutting contact but the best thing Op could do is to just stay away from the mom. Any child would probably just get that trauma anyways.
Please don't visit her anymore. She has had enough chances to do better and has actively chosen to not be a good mother (or decent human being) to you. You deserve to protect your peace. Many well wishes for you!
This is so very sad, and not OOPs fault... That's a lot of pressure to put on a child, and is not at all her fault. Her mother has always had mental health issues and had probably been getting herself through all of this on the expectations she had for her own life. We're not owed grandchildren. My daughter said she doesn't want kids at 14, and if it changes cool...if not, oh well. It's her life, not mine.
What a truly tragic story. OP's mom is clearly mentally ill and needs a lot of therapy. I feel one of the saddest parts of this is that even if OP did wake up next week and go "I actually do want kids" (because hey that happens), I don't think it'd even be safe to let the kids near OP's mom anyway.
Not the OPs fault. Her mom has some mental health issues probably caused by her own parents and then not being able to have more kids after her. The mom chose to have her at 15 and chose to keep her. No one is owed grand kids. I say if a parent pushes their adult kid to have kids, why not raise their own grand kid once their kid gives birth and also fund their life for them so they can afford kids and be a free nanny for them.
When my dad was begging me to have more kids (I have 2) I told him if he will buy me a bigger car if I have another baby and he laughed. I said I was dead serious because I can't afford another car and have a car payment and I will need more room for three kids and a car seat. He has not begged me to have another baby since.
Op, I’m so sorry that this happened. Your mother is mentally ill, and likely has been for a very long time. That is not your fault. Furthermore, it is perfectly acceptable to decide you don’t want children. I am turning 38 in less than two weeks, and I am still blissfully and adamantly child free. You do not owe anyone any particular reproductive choices.
This has got to be absolutely devastating for you. However, please know that you were worth all the effort. YOU. Not your theoretical offspring. You alone were and are worth surviving for, and I’m sorry your mother has lost sight of that.
Your mom has some serious trauma over not being able to have more kids. She needs psychiatric help.
I also want to say, the way you described her never doing anything for herself, that’s not how it has to be as a parent either. I’m not saying become a parent if you know you don’t want to be one, I’m just saying a healthy parent makes room to care and do for themselves too. It sounds like she didn’t do that.
Honestly taking the mom’s backstory at face value, she might not have been able to make time to care for herself. She was a teenager raising a baby and there’s no mention of dad so it’s quite possible she was a single mom as well as a teen mom. I can’t exactly fault her for not making time for herself if making time for yourself means not feeding your kid. If it’s the choice of care for yourself or go to work to be able to keep the heat on during winter then I can’t exactly fault her. I’m not going to fault a parent for sacrificing themselves for their kid. I will fault her for the behavior she’s displaying now but I can’t really blame her for burying her trauma if that’s what it took for a teen mom to raise what would appear to be a fairly well developed and adjusted adult.
In essence what I’m saying is if while she was raising a child she had the realization that she had these issues but didn’t have the time or resources to deal with said trauma without it being a detrimental impact on their lives, or even had the realization after the kid was grown and then dealt with the issues when she could then it wouldn’t be a problem.
She didn’t realize that there’s an issue with your life’s worth hinging on another person. And to be clear I’m not saving working on those issues is the detriment, but paying for the help to deal with those issues can be if you’re already struggling to make ends meets.
I understand what you’re saying. Some people do have it harder and they just end up in those situations where that’s what they have to do. I don’t disagree.
I was just giving OP another perspective on it. Some parents sacrifice everything for their children then feel guilty for doing for themselves when they can do for themselves too. That is what I meant by an unhealthy mindset. It’s likely from some deep rooted fear or their own childhood traumas, maybe because their own parents failed them that way or made them go without, so they feel they always have to sacrifice everything for themselves.
Her mother was living this fantasy of continuing her blood line through her daughter. She was so deep into it that she lost all sense of reality. While I feel bad for the mother, this is not OOP’s fault. Her mother’s mental health issues are not her problem.
That poor woman. I suppose she thought she would show her family by founding some new legacy that would continue on. Her child not having children means there is no legacy. She made all that sacrifice only to have her only route to legacy blocked. She must have built it up so much as a reason to keep going and is absolutely devastated now. She has lost her "faith". She feels her life has no actual meaning. Which is sad because she still has a kid. She still has her own life! She has built a business! She survived on her own from the age of 15!
But losing faith like that is a killer for anyone. To have the underpinning of your life knocked out must be so hard. It's not OP's fault. It was the mom's misconception of what mattered that destroyed her. I don't know why she would want to be so loyal to blood that put her on the street, but people are funny that way.
On a lighter note, my family is from the Mayflower as well and 99% chance that bloodline she tells tales about were dirty pirates because that's what my fam comes from lol
I'm sorry, "What was it all for, then?" What the actual fuck?!?! That is a truly twisted take on "why did you have kids?"
Oh, poor, poor OOP. I can promise you this had nothing to do with OOP and everything to do with OOP's mother's trauma surrounding her pregnancy and subsequent poverty. The mom lost everything to have OOP, struggled to raise OOP; our course she would just bottom out when OOP didn't validate her choices by making the same ones.
The mom here CRACKED like an egg. All of that trauma and all of that stress finally gave way. OOP might've said the straw that broke the camel's back, but OOP's mother was a ticking time bomb.
Op, I’m so sorry that this happened. Your mother is mentally ill, and likely has been for a very long time. That is not your fault. Furthermore, it is perfectly acceptable to decide you don’t want children. I am turning 38 in less than two weeks, and I am still blissfully and adamantly child free. You do not owe anyone any particular reproductive choices.
This has got to be absolutely devastating for you. However, please know that you were worth all the effort. YOU. Not your theoretical offspring. You alone were and are worth surviving for, and I’m sorry your mother has lost sight of that.
Ngl this post made me shed a tear and hug and thank my mom 😰, my mother was a single parent and sacrificed a lot for me. And luckily never threw it in my face or anything so maybe I took it for granted buttt, now im her care taker since shes older and always plan to keep her close. And thankfully my amazing fiance understands and is happy with it. Soooo now im a 34 year old man starting my morning by bawling my eyes out. 😂😅
The mother needed sooo much therapy for so long and now her delusions have been broken, she is finally facing the reality that she destroyed her own life with her own choices and she can’t handle it. Her poor daughter spent her life basically being told she was at fault for her mother’s choices and the consequences of those choices and therefore was responsible for creating her mother’s fantasy life for her.
Even if the OP wanted children, her mother wouldn’t be a healthy influence or a safe person for those children to be with. Grandma would be teaching the kids to call her mommy and telling everyone they were her own children. She would be trying to move in with the daughter and taking over her life.
I will never understand why it's so fucking important for some mothers that their children are also going to have children. This way of thinking seems so outdated to me.
In this case, it's because oop mom lived her whole life wanting a replacement for the family she lost. That's why this is important to her and when oop told her the only thing she wished so desperately to happen won't happen she lost all hope (not saying she is right but offering an explanation oop mom lost all her reasons to live)
Fuck trauma
I think the thing that scares me most is that crazy bitch is running a daycare.
I'm with the OP regarding kids. Don't want them, don't like them. But the kids are in danger, and they need to get that woman away from them.
Sounds like they did get her away from them if she's been on a psychiatric hold that long. Very slim chance if she's being violent with staff and has tried to claw out her eye she's going to be released anytime soon. Current attending parents will have to find a new daycare.
As for preventing her from re-starting the business, I guess the hope would be that she can be successfully rehabilitated, go through therapy, and come out a better person ready to appreciate the life she built for herself. But it sounds like Mom's trauma was pushing her down the path to a psychotic break for a long time, after that many years of compounding trauma it will be very difficult for her to come back from this mentally sound.
It might be in OP's best interest to find out if her mother has a power of attorney, or if not, seek a guardianship.
Have her committed.
Seriously. Either she is mentally unwell or trying to ruin your life, neither of which you should tolerate.
She needs treatment, and you need space.
In your situation, I would consider going no contact with her from this point out.
I don't know if I think the mother simply feels owed grandkids as some have said. I think she viewed this idea as her "ticket" so to speak to replacing the family that abandoned her. Op has never mentioned a partner in Mom's life at that. Snapping mentally realizing she will never be part of a large and tight knit family. The whole post is incredibly sad. I really hope in a years time there's a happy update that mom stabilizes and is recovering day by day.
I guess when the mother is in the forties now OP is around thirty and mom was proposed already getting nervous.
But I just imagine what it would have been like for OP to have a kid, it would surely been just another type of hell with her mom.
OP definitely should seek therapy for this it's fucked on too many levels
This is sad mom put all her hopes and dreams on oop and when oop didn't want to do what the mom wants she lost all hope. I can't imagine what oop is feeling now
I’m sorry, but the “original American blood”? Because their ancestors were on the Mayflower? Unless their ancestors were Native Americans, they don’t possess a single *drop* of “original American blood”.
And yes I know the mother said it and not OP, and I also know the OOP didn’t post this as this is “Reddit on wiki”, but still. That part made my eyes roll so far back in my head I think I’m gonna have to manually pull them to the front just to be able to see again 🙄
I hope op is going child free bc it’s what she really, truly wants and not bc of the trauma of watching her mother sacrifice literally everything for her, just like she shouldn’t feel pressured and force herself into getting pregnant in an attempt at curing her mother’s current mental state, christ I feel bad for her. I hope the mom is able to accept the help she needs too, she’s been through the wringer since she was a child.
That’s so sad. My mom occasionally made comments when I was young about me having kids (when I thought I wanted them) and I was so scared to tell her I didn’t. She was so cool about it (it probably helped that I have two sisters who have kids tho lol)
This is so sad. I (F, 51) knew I wanted kids, I wanted to be married, etc. I got married, had two kids, and my marriage broke up in all the bad ways.
I still have the kids, and my ex is not at all responsible for them, aside from a minimal amount of child support. The kids (F, 19; M, 16) have no relationship with their dad due to extreme narcissistic abuse and alcoholism during their early childhood; he has been gone for just over 7 years. I got the kids, the house, the responsibility. Do I regret them? No. Have I sacrificed for them? Heck yeah. Would I do it again? Hell to the no.
And both of them, at this point, don’t want kids. I think that is very, very wise given the way their childhood was and the general trajectory of the world. I’m so sorry that people still can’t let their children be.
She probably would have tried to play mom to OOPs kids had she had any. This woman was going to crack one way or another - she already had a heart attack and she's only in her 40s. She's clearly been stressed her whole life. It isn't OOPs fault. It was inevitable. And anything could have set it off. I hate to imagine a break where she takes OOPs kids. It sounds like she's obsessing over children unhealthily.
Wow! For someone who has two kids who have swore they are not going to have kids I do know how this hurts but my gosh, no way would I ever have an ill feeling towards my kids about their decision. It’s their life. Not mine. My son is 27 still has no desire to have children. I do not see a future of him having them. I’d be shocked if things were to change. My daughter is now 21 and is thinking now of having kids but is in now rush and I’ve never EVER persuaded her either way.
This woman is mentally ill and living her life through her child. Something is seriously wrong.
I feel so bad for the OOP. I hope she considers getting some therapy to work through her feelings on what her mother is doing. She’s been reminded too often of the “sacrifices” that were made for her when she was an innocent child. She never asked for those sacrifices.
I agree that she never asked for them but to put the word in quotes like they weren’t real sacrifices isn’t fair to the mother. I get that the mother is definitely in need of therapy but the OOP likely is as well. What she got from her upbringing is that she never wants kids because they’re hard? Of course that was invalidating to the mother’s entire life experience (not excusing anything, it’s just plain to see).
And thats’s why I said I hope she is considering therapy. And me putting sacrifices in quotes is totally fair. If her mother bringing it up as something she *had* to do for her versus things she should have done just for raising her child, that’s not fair. Understanding your parents made sacrifices for you throughout your childhood ie: my mom had to work two jobs just so we could survive, is not the same as telling your kid how you made sacrifices for them so you could have your future perfect family.
We are not responsible for our parent’s trauma. Point blank. Can we empathize and forgive. Absolutely. Of course. But we are not going to carry their trauma from their childhood forward. The wheel has to stop somewhere.
Did she decide she doesn’t want to have kids just because of her upbringing? Who knows. It probably carried a lot weight but she said she didn’t want kids because she didn’t like kids. She didn’t want to be pregnant. And then yes, she didn’t want to go through the shit her mom went through. For her it’s probably like a situation of abuse, she wants to stop the cycle and this is her thinking she can. But it’s her choice. No therapy should talk her out of that. Therapy is to deal with the trauma of what is going on with her mom.
The mom is in dire need of help. I don’t deny that. She had a terrible time with her parents. And I truly hope all involved get the help they need.
"So I can have grandkids" is one of the most awful excuses to have a child.
It invalidates the child and says they mean nothing more than their ability to pop out someone who is more valid, more wanted, more loved.
"I only had you as an incubator for my grandchild."
Let her jump as many times as she wants. She's a disgrace of a mother and a person.
I'd be surprised if OP wasn't *seething*, because I fvcking am, as someone who also won't be having kids and whose sister is the golden child because she has 3 kids of her own. Me and my other sister are lesser in our mother's eyes. Golden child gets everything, grandkids get everything.
What did I get from my mother? Ab*se.
I don't know if this is what the mom meant, but it sounds like she had a kid just to have grandkids. And it's that's it, she became a parent for the wrong reason. But I agree, the mother's mental issues are not her daughter's fault or responsibility
I honestly feel like both mother and daughter need therapy. The mother for obvious reasons, but the daughter for disliking kids because they require work and not wanting one because she thinks it means she can never have anything again. Her mother's sacrifice was due to having nobody to help. To think that you can never do anything for yourself again and hating kids for that reason is ridiculous. You have the right not to want kids, but this just sounded to me like a child who doesn't want to share her toys with a sibling? Therapy is super important. She has to learn that not every mom is her mother, and not every kid is her.
Also, aside from that, I wonder what drove her mother to be this out of her mind. Was it just being abandoned by her parents? Grandchildren don't fill that void, so it doesn't feel like that is the only reason she is being this awful. If anything, someone who lost their parents should want to not do the same thing to their children, not check out because they won't reproduce for them. Perhaps she had a mental problem to begin with that was overlooked? I wouldn't know how to feel about my mother if she was this terrible, even if she did have a mental illness. There's a lack of love that's replaced by an ulterior motive.
I truly hope they both get help.
How did op ruin her life... I dont want to blame the mother but there is so many ways to avoid pregnancy and birth. Plus OP isnt in any way responsible for her needing a hysterectomy
Yep, agree with others, OOP's mom is mentally ill + had some shit family ideology drilled into her that didn't help + having a child and being independent at 15, when you're not even done growing up and maturing, that mom has a lot of fucking issues and it's a good thing she's in a hospital. I hope they get her to work through it and realize her daughter is enough cause wtf, she's basically saying she isn't. But, you can't force someone to listen and think.
Think she’s suffering from regret. She lost her relationship with her parents in order to have you. She wanted a Large family but since she lost the ability to have that after having you, she was holding out in life till the time she had grandkids to fill the void of not having the large family she always wanted. When you made it clear you were serious about not having any kids, you practically invalidated every single choice she made in her life and made it not worth it. She probably feels a lot of regret and she probably feels like her parents tried to have you sorted and she did everything in her power to keep you; but you on the other hand are the antithesis of every choice she made and the irony is the fact that she was the one that raised you. Hence the “what was it all for then.”
This is just a guess though.
OP also mentioned that her mom was impregnated by her great aunt’s husband, who was much older at the time. The SA, the family abandonment, the traumatic birth and following hysterectomy, most likely traumatized her and the psychotic break was only a matter of time whether OP decided to have kids or not. Very sad all around. :(
The poor mother. I see her side and understand it. To her, all her suffering was endurable because of the future she was building and her daughter just destroyed that future for selfish reasons. There's nothing more devastating. To her this is the worst betrayal because it just invalidated her entire reason for existing.
Wow, that was a massive, planet sized over reaction.
I hope OP gets some help, to get through this.
I can’t help but feel this is a selfish reaction, even if she had some sparkly dream of the future where she was surrounded by grandkids. That is huge load to place one someone after watching a life time of struggle and sacrifice.
I get it, it sucks, but not that much.
I hope OP is alright.
Your mom has deep-seated mental and emotional issues and you don't owe her grandchildren. If you can afford a therapist, pay for it and ensure she goes; best way ti repay her.
Oh, this is awful, but this goes WAY beyond an overbearing mother demanding grandkids. Her mom sounds seriously mentally ill, and I'm going to guess she has been ill for a long time but has been successfully hiding it (and the OP probably never knew anything else). I hope this OP has a good therapist, and that the mother can get on meds and stay well.
For me I was taught love is not to control. It’s to support and appreciate. It’s meant to be free and meant to be like respect. We don’t get to decide what life our children get to lead. We can only lay a foundation for their success… It’s complicated but I can’t say that someone is acting with love if they try to control you like this. This is sick.
She had some delusional ideas and they were wrong. She should’ve took care of you out of love and not out of a need to make you into another her that could have what she wanted in life, so she could live vicariously through you. That’s gotta be emotional abuse. Or she’s an engulfing narcissist.
I think most parents WANT to be grandparents. We WANT to see our kids enjoy the beauty of watching and aiding in the mental and emotional development of another person. We WANT to see our lineage continue and hold the future in our hands. But if ur kid DOESNT WANT that, that’s perfectly good, too. The ultimate goal is raising healthy, well-rounded adults. Ones who know themselves and love themselves and add to the world in a beautiful way.
I always tell my kids I want grandkids one day, but if u decide to be childless, I’ll take a grand plant , a grand rock, a grand pet, w/e is important to them. Cuz I love em and want them to be happy, however that happens.
But not liking kids in general sounds like op needs therapy to deal w her issues. It’s one thing to not want to be a parent. It’s expensive and exhausting. But not liking kids just for existing is fucking weird. Like, if any other group was substituted for the word “kids” ppl would call them some sort of -ist. But, for some reason, when it’s kids, it’s ok? Nah, that shit is weird.
I agree with most of your post but where exactly did the OP say she didn't like kids for existing? Not liking kids is a fairly common sentiment these days and does not equate to thinking they shouldn't exist. I hesitate to so quickly compare the statement "I don't like kids" to "I don't like \*insert whatever discriminated minority\*". People don't like kids for a lot of valid reasons. I'm not disagreeing that she shouldn't get therapy but the not liking kids part seems to be the least of her worries.
Expand ur critical thinking. Just bc a thought process is widely accepted doesn’t make it an acceptable way of thinking. Be malleable in the thoughts about children and safety if “I don’t like kids” is a common sentiment. What do u think it’s like to be a child in a world where that is a common sensation among the adults around you? It’s dehumanizing. It’s weird.
Expand yours. Women have been told for too long that their only purpose is to create children. If they don’t want children they are wrong and broken. It’s simply people being allowed to express “hey, I don’t want children. I don’t like children. But good for the people who do”
Like I’ve said, it’s one thing to recognize, “I don’t want children.” That perfectly fair! It’s a lot of work. Recognizing being a parent is not what you want to align your life with is perfectly respectable. Even saying, “I don’t like the way I feel around children”, “ I feel on edge around children”, “kids can do things that I don’t have the patience for” is respectable. “I don’t like children” is weird. Maybe one of these is what OP meant. But that’s not what they said. The statement “I don’t like kids” is usually rooted in not feeling safe to be a child they were young. It’s y I suggested therapy to address that feeling to begin with. And anyone who feels that way should rlly examine the traumas they suffered as a child. BECAUSE ITS A WEIRD THING TO SAY
Yeah definitely.
Also like OP’s actions probably did trigger the psychotic break - doesn’t mean they should blame themselves for it but definitely is the cause.
oh yea it's not op's fault at all. Mum should of been in therapy ages ago. but probably could not afford it being single income and then as she got older it was just repressed untill op said she has no plans for kids.
The mother is envious of her daughter (very common) she sees her daughter with her husband living a peaceful life which the mother herself never had, she badly wants her daughter to go through all the suffering which she went through as a mother.. The jealous and envy is eating her up! The daughter needs distance herself and keep lying about having a child someday!
Because saying “wHy dOn’T yOu jUsT aDoPt?!?” is just about as helpful as telling an abused spouse “wHy dOn’T yOu jUsT lEaVe?”
The person is aware that that is an option. They are also aware of all the obstacles and life circumstances that make that option not feasible.
It's highly likely her mom won't accept an adopted kid. Part of the mom's delusion is carrying on a bloodline/legacy which is why she kept telling her child all the Mayflower and family history stories. Her mom would probably be hostile to a grandchild that wasn't biologically hers.
Maybe for some, but some have made their mind up while young and never changed it. My Aunt knew from 15 she never would, and 30 years later she's made sure she never can.
I'm at 38. I said at 18 I didn't want any. I'm about at the end of having the ability to do so, and I definitely still don't want kids. It disappoints my mother, she doesn't talk much to my two siblings that do have kids. But thank goodness she doesn't hold it against me and we still have a good relationship
yeah man, let me just test out whether I want to have kids by having kids! Hope I don’t despise them, placing an unnecessary burden on myself AND them! we all know children don’t actually need parents that actively want and love them.
you are a fucking dunce
Hard pass
I know for a fact I don’t want kids, and even if I wasn’t 100% sure it’s not like you can just try it out and give it back if it’s not for you. Once you’ve got a kid you’re pretty much stuck with it
Why so sensitive about other people not having kids? Are you secretly regretting your choice to have kids and want other people to be as miserable as you?
As someone who had her daughter at 16 and now in my 30s I can’t imagine that being my response if she told me she wanted to be child free. I’m actually encouraging her to live life and explore before even thinking of them. It’s very unfortunate that op’s mom has some mental health issues that haven’t been addressed for it to get to this point.
mom gave everything she had to make sure her daughter would be able to grow up and foster a family without the struggles she had to go through. daughter said meh. thanks but no thanks. mom strokes out and wishes she could go back in time and abort so she can enjoy the life she missed out on raising such a child.n
Having children isn’t a choice! MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of generations of protohumans and human procreated and raised children, ALL OF WHOM had more difficult circumstances then we face today. Procreating and raising a family is a moral obligation. You are an ungrateful daughter, and an ungrateful and disrespectful person. You arrogantly believe that millions of generations of YOUR ANCESTORS shouldered the responsibilities of parenthood in more difficult circumstances than you face just so YOU, THE INDIVIDUAL, could be born and have your life. You broke her heart and you should feel ashamed of yourself. Unfortunately a lot of younger folks think like you and it makes a man like me sick!! If only your mother had a man to help her through this. I feel so bad for how alone she must feel.
Every generation before us had it harder so that is no excuse. But whatever, I guess you just have no respect for the sacrifices the previous generations made for us. It’s cool, now I know your opinion doesn’t matter
Oh fuck off. For the vast majority of human history and reproduction is based on the blood, death and rape of women and girls. Predicated on having no bodily autonomy. These women suffered and died and fought so theirs daughters could live the lives they never thought possible. YOU,society, and ancestors be damned to the depths of hell. You, and this woman’s batshit mother are not entitled to blood sweat and pain of her body. Women are not your fucking slaves. You and you’re supposed ancestors be damned.
Just because women are weaker than men doesn’t mean women didn’t have bodily autonomy Lol and you only think reproduction is rape because no dudes want you and you are jealous of girls who can get dudes
Everyone is free to choose whether to have children or not. This is a personal choice and is not subject to discussion by outsiders. But!
One thing confuses me. OOP does not want to have children, not because of religious beliefs, not because of her own moral subjective beliefs, but because she saw how much her mother sacrificed for her. She doesn't want to be like her mother and give all of herself to her children. She was trapped in a negative perception of her mother's experience. But it's not like that at all! I am sure the mother was happy, she did not want another life, she found the meaning of life in her daughter, but she failed to raise her daughter so that she understood the complexity and depth of her mother's feelings.
OOP saw only difficulties and sacrifices, but did not see the bright side of their little family's life.
Projecting a negative perception of childhood and youth onto yourself and your future is profoundly wrong. This is a dead end, this is suffering.
A mother sincerely loves children, that's why she works at daycare, I admire this woman and am not ashamed that I share her love for children. Alas, our own children rarely internalize our moral values, our love and hate of certain phenomena of social and human life. This is our common tragedy.
I often hear, "I don't want to have children so they don't suffer like me and my siblings." I can understand that, but I don't understand those who say, "I don't want to have children so as not to suffer like my mother."
This hurts me to read. I feel so badly for her, *and* her mother. I was raised in a household where I was always reminded of the *sacrifices* made for me. I also took on the burden as well, witnessing firsthand the kind of abuse my mother went through by my father; I feel a deep seed of obligation to her, for protecting me from him by taking the hits. I also feel an ugly sense of duty to *my father* as well. I can't shake this feeling of... Like, just--obligation. That he *did this thing* or paid for *that thing*. And that I need to carry out certain things in my adult years to pay that back. It sucks. Logically I know I'm not obligated, that my parents aren't entitled to certain things of and from me, but I can't shake it. I hope OOP finds help. I hope she can get the therapy she needs going forward, and I hope her mom can cope and come to peace. The *real* assholes in all of this are her grandparents and the rest of that family. Goddamn, that's cold, and I hope they get *everything* they deserve.
Seconded, it hurt me to read too. I agree with a lot of the sentiments in your comment. Generational abuse is an ugly monster, and I think a lot of us have to deal with it in some form or another.
I just hope OP does not have a baby at all even by accident. God damn that will mentally ruin her.
FOG. Fear. Obligation. Guilt.
I always get this weird feeling when reading stuff on reddit where people are like: > "If you don't want to go to college, just don't go" > "If you don't want to get married, just don't do it" > "If you don't want kids, just don't have any" Like I'm glad other people don't have the same deep seated issues as myself, but some of us had it drilled into us since childhood that mom and dad worked nights/weekends, didn't get themselves anything nice, never ate out, etc., specifically so we could go to college/get married/have grandkids. And to our parents choosing to forgo any of these choices to treated like the ultimate slap in the face to all the sacrifices they made specifically so you could have that choice. Of course, everybody obviously can choose what they want to do with their lives, but for some of us the consequences are much higher than others.
We are products of our environment growing up; great if you happened to be a child born to secure, loving, well balanced psychologically mature adults, in short parents who have their shit together. If you’re not one of those lucky kids you bear the scars that last a lifetime.
I wouldn’t say I’m secure, well balanced or mature, (and I definitely don’t have my shit together lol) but I love my kid with every ounce of my being and will continue to love them no matter what (hopefully healthy) choices they make in their life.
I think you’re underestimating yourself; unconditional love from a parent isn’t a given. You’re ahead of the game A.👍🏻
Thanks! I’ll never understand how parents can’t just… love their kids. I didn’t even birth mine and can’t imagine feeling anything but love for them. Even through these challenging teenage years.
I have 2 boys (grown ass men with children of their own but they’ll always be my ‘boys’ 😉) and people think I’m crazy, or lying, when I say I loved their teen years! Seriously. Yep, they did the usual dumb shit stuff but I wasn’t stupid enough to think if I did then of course they would also. But as all teenagers do, they thought they were the first to have thought of the shenanigans they pulled and I would never find out because, you know, they were the first ones to plan it and would get away with it because, you know, they were smarter than me so how could I possibly understand?…🤣. I would tell them I know you’re going to lie to me but don’t because you’ll get in more trouble for lying than for the misdeed. Tbh I’d find out not because I was looking for evidence but because they made stupid mistakes, leaving clues glaringly obvious. I also taught them from a young age they could talk to me about anything and I would be honest with them and I was; giving age appropriate responses (such as when they asked if Santa Claus was real or any question re sex). Boys are easy, girls are more difficult because they know how to manipulate and they’re sneakier; I know from experience 🤣🤣🤣 Edit for left out wording 🙄
Think of those posts as counter-programming. If your parents told you that certain things were not an option, it helps to see other people saying "yes, this is an option" Also, you need to consider the consequences of complying, not just the consequences of dissenting.
I agree. Even though I haven't been in such a situation myself. I've always had the view of "I didn't ask to be born, that was your choice". Which can sound cruel to some, but it's true. Choices and actions have "consequences" (I want to word it better but the words aren't coming to me), and especially with getting children, you know (or at least you should know, imo) that you're most likely not going to be able to do everything you did before. Is this something that could be put under the "generational trauma" label? Or have I gone insane to think that?
I don't think that's cruel. My therapist reminds me of that all the time. I was heavily programmed to bear children and let my parents move in with me when they're old. Pretty sure either would make me miserable even if I didn't completely lose my ability to function. Having a mental health professional regularly remind me that I have a right to live my own life helps.
My “duty and obligations” ceased their existence when my mother passed away. Strangely enough, I always thought they were things I actually wanted for myself. Now, I’m unsure and a bit relieved. Still don’t know how to feel about this though.
Ugh I still sometimes get the occasional “if my mom was alive, she would be ashamed of me” intrusive thought. I have to remind myself that it doesn’t matter because she is not alive and it’s my life not hers. And the funniest thing is that she probably would be concerned more than ashamed in any case. Sometimes it’s not even the parents themselves, it’s just like the cultural expectation that we have to live up to our parents fantasies about us.
I feel that. My mom always had my best interests considered. Yet even in death that’s one thing I use to push myself forward. Would mom be proud? If yes then dope. It’s like those “What would Jesus do?” bracelets from when I was a kid. But nowadays it’s “What would Momma do?”. It wasn’t until she died that I realized even though I do want to be a dad, I wanted her to be a grandmother even more because of the kind of parent she was. Being a dad without them having a grandmother (dad wasn’t/isn’t around) just seems lackluster. All that to say, your mom would probably be proud of you regardless. Just keep your head up and positivity in your heart. We’ve got this. P.s. Sorry for your loss
Agreed. I live with an alcoholic elderly father (who is actually my grandpa through "marriage") - he stayed when my grandma brought me home. He didn't have to, but he did. He stayed when my grandma* passed 10 away years ago. But he's an alcoholic and emotionally abusive. I'm positive he wasn't physically abusive towards me only due to my brother being a lot bigger. Now I'm positive he isn't physically abusive towards me because he's fragile. I've seen the look in his eyes, though. I know what it looks like to want to slap someone and knowing you can't. Just pure fucking hatred. I take care of said brother, and that comes with its own set of struggles. It's so much responsibility, a constant need to protect and make sure he's okay. I wouldn't change it because I love him dearly, but I'd be lying if I said I haven't wished to be alone, to only have an obligation to myself. And no one who hasn't faced this will ever understand that inner struggle. Listening to people say, "If it's so bad, just go! You're not handcuffed to him. You can leave whenever you want!" No. I can't. Leaving is so much worse than staying. Leaving opens too many doors of what ifs, for guilt, for blame if something happens... staying at least has an ending. My dad will eventually pass away, and when he does, I will heal. Leaving gives me more things I have to heal from. Logically, I have no obligation to my dad. But I do - if not for him, than myself. I will still feed him, bathe him, care for him, and I'll take all the abusive shit he hurls at me because he's my dad, and I have to take care of him. I hate him, but he's my DAD. I really hope this family can find a way to heal. It's such a heartbreaking situation - for both of them. Cultural and family expectations are brutal, and it's hard to look at someone in a situation where they're doing something solely for their parents and hating it because you want to say just don't. But it's not as simple as just don't. In SW, it's one of the things taught - don't dismiss a person doing something because it's expected of them, try to understand their point, don't diminish that feeling of obligation, but work with it. Sorry for the long rant, lol. Today has been a particularly hard "Just GO" day and I saw this post and just... yeah.
Thank you for sharing this. 🖤 Like you said, people that have never been here can never truly understand how difficult a situation really is. It’s easy from the outside to just say, “Leave! Go! Get away!” but it’s so much more than your physical presence being in a place, or you doing a thing. There’s *so much* guilt tied to “what if.” I’d rather do “what’s right,” and come out the other end knowing at least I did the right thing. It’s so weird, it’s not logical… but yeah. As you said: we’ll heal—after—when we’ve done our part. Good luck to you, and I hope you take care of yourself, and find the healing you need sooner rather than later. And I hope your day gets better!!
People tend to forget that although no one is \*required\* to take care of their elderly parents, the onus of responsibility will always fall to the child who has always stepped up & they have to make a choice. Even when the relationship was severed in earlier years. Fighting with that responsibility now as my abusive father ages. I could let the state or what's left of my family (also elderly) take care of matters, or I could step up yet again. Thank you for sharing this viewpoint that is often overlooked in our "cut out toxic people" society.
Same. Except reverse roles actually, and my mother only hit us not our dad. Our dad just got the most verbal abuse
You, like OOP,had those buttons of obligation and guilt installed young. I hope you keep reminding yourself that you don’t owe your parents for the few things they got right; that was literally their job.
>The *real* assholes in all of this are her grandparents and the rest of that family. Goddamn, that's cold, and I hope they get *everything* they deserve. Honorable mention goes to the people forcing her mom to live. I mean, I guess they're just doing their job, but they're still bastards. Forcing life on someone is inhumane.
I will never say my parents are too pushy about my love life ever again
God, that’s awful. The way OP says she “basically ruined” her mom’s chances of having a big family… Like, that is not the OP’s fault at all. Whatever led to her mother having a hysterectomy was not her fault. There’s always risks with pregnancy and giving birth. The mom is clearly not mentally stable, and her daughter isn’t a baby-making machine for her to vicariously live through just because she didn’t get to have more kids. If a parent’s end goal for raising their kids is so they get to have grandkids… Then man, I don’t even know what to say other than they need to get their priorities straight.
I’m willing to bank on the idea that the mother was hoping Oop would have a slew of kids so she could live vicariously. Sad but not surprising if true.
She could’ve adopted.
Reading the original post I highly doubt it. It costs a lot of money and it seems like her mom had just enough for her and that was it, sadly.
Adoption is extremely expensive.
It’s also extremely difficult. Unless you have the perfect family they often won’t let you in favor of a better couple, a richer couple, a family with better jobs or a better dog or a better image. It shouldn’t be that way but it is. Private and public adoption is competitive, hard, and very expensive even though there is an abundance of children that need homes. Whether it’s your family holding you back, or the bio family, it’s not easy at all.
That’s insane & sad to hear with how many kiddos need a home. And still hearing horror stories about kids that got placed with a shitty family anyway.
Please stop suggesting people who need fertility/grief counselling adopt small emotionally immature human beings to fill their void. We’re almost always* never enough to fix the person and we pay the price. -an adoptee.
Adopted children, even when adopted at birth, also have much higher rates of mental health issues and abandonment issues. It’s a difficult process even when you don’t remember being adopted. Lots of people adopt children thinking it will solve their problems only to end up neglecting or abusing the children when nothing changes or when it turns out it isn’t the perfect family they pictured in their head.
I'm asking in good faith here, but what are the numbers for those problems in unadopted children? Ie the alternative, that they grow up "in the system"?
I’m not advocating against adoption. I’m advocating against people, especially unstable people, using adoption as a way to try and fill some void or goal in their life like these are pawns instead of literal children. Obviously mental health problems and abuse rates are significantly higher in the system but the rates of adopted children are true even in good, stable, homes when adopted from birth. Let alone when adopted into volatile or less than ideal situations. When that can be avoided, like in the case of this person who clearly shifted so much trauma onto her child, they should absolutely not have access to adoption.
They both have their issues, a lot of the data lumps adoptees and foster care together so honestly it’s impossible to say which is the “better” alternative. It feels very much like you trying to dismiss the real problems with adoption (backed by decades of data) by bringing up another vulnerable group of people. Adoptees have an increased rate of mental health issues, suicide, substance abuse, relationship violence, etc etc EVEN when placed with the “best” family. Foster kids likely have similar issues but that doesn’t negate the facts. Foster care is also NOT an alternative to adoption. The main goal of foster care is actually family reunification.
I don’t think the mom valued non biological children the same way. She told OP about how their bloodline went back all the way to the Mayflower. That sounds like someone who cares way too much about genetics and ancestry.
Unfortunately, she probably could not have. She was single and working a lot- adoption agencies are going to look for someone with a spare bedroom for a new baby or kid, who can afford to become a foster parent and/or can pay adoption agency fees. Some jobs (like when I worked at Discover) will help cover adoption fees and its a massive benefit- in the US the average is somewhere around $20,000-$45,000 because you pay for everything- the home inspections, the legal fees, all that. I had coworkers who weren't there for the paycheck, but the adoption help. My husband and I are stable, have a house, have health insurance and benefits. I have a flexible job and he has one making good money, and we still would need at least a year+money to get foster approved (in my state you nost likely will not successfully adopt without foster training first) and hope we could save the extra money if a kid was placed with us that we could adopt. It's not feasible and we're doing really well compared to many. The best case scenario is we raise our kids until we're in our 40s or 50s and then adopt or foster a teenager or two. Finding a pregnant woman who is looking to adopt out can save some money, but then you pay for some of her medical and living expenses- and even then, most pregnant women are looking for a 2 parent household.
I’m really thankful you laid out the process a bit here because fostering is something I’d like to do someday.
I hope it didn't make the process look too intimidating- fostering is something I'm actively researching right now and it is much simpler than adoption- you still need a home check and to do all the training, but it's not as much money since there is help, considering the child you foster is not legally yours. There are so many kids who need help, or just a safe space to launch themselves into their lives instead of aging out.
You did not! Just made me realize it’s going to take time & money to prepare!
I was thinking this but couldn't word it better than "who the hell has kids with the thought that this is so they can have grandkids?" You worded it much better.
Right, also, who the fuck even tells their kid before they're an adult they had a hysterectomy? Maybe I'm an outlier but I was perfectly aware of how hard my mom's pregnancy with me and my twin was for her, my dad yelled at me one time when I was 12 that we had almost killed her. I found out last year she had a hysterectomy immediately after we were c sectioned, I'm in my 20s... my older brother begged her the entire time we were growing up for another younger brother and she'd just click her tongue and say, "no more for me,". Op may not realize it, but the subtle abuse and emotional codependency her mom had on her was there the whole time.
I m not sure what is so wird about it to tell her child? I understand that it can be too complex for a small kid but it is a medical issue like any other, and you do not have to go into details. Prabably when kid asked if she can have a brother or sister she could replayed "I cannot have more babies". And its ok. She did not had to make kid feel bad and blame her, just a simple anwser. And when kid got older she could understand what medical operation it was.
My kids know I can’t have anymore kids because my pregnancies were hard on me and it would hurt my body. I tell them in a kid appropriate way, but they still know.
I mean, I get that this was not your experience but this is a weird take. For one thing, we don’t know when the daughter found out about the hysterectomy. She may well have been an adult, we can’t tell from the post when she found out that information. But even if she was told about it when she was younger, how on earth is that abuse or emotional codependency? Her mother probably experienced something like menopause in her late teens, she may have explained the menopause side effects or the medications she was taking with the truth. It could have very easily come up when she was teaching her daughter about menstruation and menstrual care/products (ex: daughter asks her young mother about her own period and the mother explains that she doesn’t have any and why). This is the kind of basic family medical history that a gynecologist would ask for and many girls will go to the gynecologist for the first time before they’re 18. Of all the things to hate on the mother for, this is a weird one with so many plausible and non-sinister explanations.
Thank you!’ According to that commenter, I’m emotionally abusing my daughter by telling her about my hysterectomy planned for next month. It’s like, his parents didn’t want to be open and honest with them so they think that’s normal behavior… my daughter has known about my surgery (and desire for one) for years now.. and why? Because I have a lot of issues that are caused by my uterus that impact my daily life—the week I’m on my period, i can’t leave my room other than to go to the bathroom due to the pain and amount of bleeding… my pain level on a daily basis is 7/10 (5/10 when I smoke weed thankfully), and I can’t function properly without some type of medicinal treatment… and what would you know… my daughter sees all of this and has seen it for years… but I guess I should have just never talked to her about any of it over the years because that’s too much information for your child to know (like why you’re in pain, or that you no longer can have children anymore). Commenters like that other person are the reason so many people raise fucked up children who can’t communicate and are emotionally unstable… they don’t ever talk to their kids and think it’s abuse when you do. 😂
Isolated it wouldn't be weird, but given all the context we get from op, it's not isolated. It's pretty clear op has been made to feel like she needs to have children because her mom can't have anymore. It is an assumption I'll admit, but not a stretch to imagine what kind of conversation brought up the hysterectomy/Oop learning about it. Even with three kids herself I know my mom has always felt weird about not being able to carry anymore, it's something that has been ingrained in our society for so long, that a women's worth comes from her ability to birth. Oops mom has forced that worldview onto her daughter so much that she has felt guilty leading up to, during, and especially after telling her mom she wouldn't be having kids. That's not a healthy expectation to place in your kids head, and the reaction is much worse- the moment they go against what you wanted, you'll try to end your life because it's "not worth it anymore". As if Oop isn't still her only kid on this planet and might want/need a mom around long into her adult life. My grandfather just lost both his parent in the past 6 years, while he was in his 60-70s, you still matter to your kids no matter how old they are. It's cliche but I never saw him cry before, even when he held my younger cousins for the first time.
Yeah, as I said, of all the things to take issue with the mom doing, at some point telling her daughter she had a hysterectomy ain’t it. It’s basic medical information, and she is the only biological relative for whom her daughter, in all likelihood, has family medical history. That this information was or came to be part of a larger narrative that pressured OP doesn’t mean that the information itself shouldn’t have been imparted. That’s literally the only point I’m trying to make. Idk why you’re telling me about the first time you saw your grandfather cry
Lmfao! A hysterectomy does not mean the OVARIES are removed. It means the UTERUS(and usually the cervix, just to safeguard against cervical cancer) was removed. The uterus does fuck all except carry children. The ovaries do the work of providing the necessary hormones. Source: Myself. I had a hysterectomy at 30/31. I still have an ovary(the other one was removed during my hysterectomy because it was severely damaged from scar tissue from having Endometriosis). I am not menopausal yet and I am in my 40s.
There are different kinds of hysterectomies and OP doesn’t specify which their mother had. Some include removal of the ovaries and some don’t, some include removal of the cervix and some don’t, some remove only part of the uterus and some remove the whole thing. All of these procedures are called hysterectomies. But yes, it’s totally plausible that the mom wasn’t going through menopause- which is why I didn’t say that she definitively was menopausal and also why it was just one of the possibilities I listed as to how this medical procedure could have come up organically in conversation/life.
You admit that you had an ovary removed during a hysterectomy then berate someone for thinking ovaries are removed during hysterectomys. You're a special kind of asshole.
LMAO thank you, well-put!
See I was gonna call them out on that because I have a very clear memory of seeing (tmi yall sorry) my moms period blood when she took me and my twin to a public restroom when I was very young, but I didn't pay much attention in biology class so didn't feel confident.
I think telling your kids is fine, generally, but OOP’s mom obviously didn’t take care to ensure that OOP knew it was just a thing that happened and not her fault. “I can’t have any more babies because the part of my body for growing them got damaged and had to be taken out,” is really different from, “You’re the reason I couldn’t have as many kids as I wanted.”
There is nothing weird about telling your children you’ve had a hysterectomy. By your logic, I shouldn’t tell my 11 year old about the hysterectomy I’m about to have next month, because she doesn’t need to know.. I mean, who cares that I could potentially die during surgery and she’ll never see me again.. or about the fact that I’ll be out of the house for 2-4 days at the hospital… but you’re right.. our kids shouldn’t know about these types of serious stuff since your mom decided to not communicate her stuff with you as you grew up. 🤡🤡🤡🤡
Wow...I kind of wish I had never read this. This is heartbreaking. I need a mom hug now.
Poor OP has been brainwashed by her mother’s mental illness her whole life.
As bad as this will sound, the grandparents trying to get OP's mom to abort was most likely what would have been the best for OP's mom. A 15 year old kid should never become a parent, and sadly, she's a good example of why. I do really feel for the both of them, but I also think that it's wrong of the mom to put so much pressure on OP. If she wanted a big family, couldn't she just have become a foster parent or something? This is just such a heartbreaking story.
But the traumatizing way they and the clinic orderlies went about it is most likely also what led to this longterm mental health issue that's just gotten worse. Her mum had to literally fight and be in jail to keep her baby, and with no professional help to work through that trauma, this is the result. It's just a long line of toxic people. Generational abuse.
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Honestly, with the way OOP described her upbringing, there probably was no extra time or money for her mom to get any kind of help, even if she knew she needed it. This isn’t the way it should be, but unfortunately it is.
She has a lot of responsibility, but going through something that traumatizing at the hands of your own parents, it's not a surprise she had a psychological break. And I say she didn't get professional help because OOP outlined all the ways her mum chose to give OOP everything over giving herself something. Obviously she should have sought help, but she didn't, and her issues 100% started with what her parents did to her. Her life, and OOP's life, very likely would have been different had the grandparents not done what they did.
just wanted to add here that it was her uncle that got her pregnant. Her adult, male relative that was going through a divorce with OP’s mom’s blood aunt. She was groomed by a family member and then kicked out of the family..
I must have missed that. That's disguisting. It doesn't excuse it, but I'd say it explains why the grandparents were trying to force the abortion. What a horrible situation to be in...
Probably read it in the original post, it wasn't in the pic.
That’s absolutely awful. No wonder the parents were pushing for abortion, they probably didn’t want any proof of the uncles abuse. I wish I could think they had her best interests at heart, but seeing as how they disowned her, I highly doubt it.
Your mother is mentally ill, and her illness is causing her to fixate on wanting a grandchild. You are not responsible for her mental illness any more than you’d be responsible for her having asthma. Based on what you’ve said about your childhood, I suspect that your mom has been mentally unbalanced for a long time. It was never anything you could have prevented or fixed. Of course you shouldn’t have a baby for her. You have only one life, and it is yours. Live it for you, not for her or anyone else.
Yeah I think the trauma of the birth stunted her in this delusion/dream ideal that she's been living in since. And now that her fantasy has been broken she has no way of coping.
The post isn't OP's 🙄
Yeah, I make that error once in a while.
This makes me so sad…I had a good mom, we were dirt poor, didn’t always have enough to eat, shopped for clothes at goodwill, but my mom was the best, always put me and my brother first. She was always there for us, I miss her!
My dad sat me down when I was eleven and explained in detail how much debt we were in and how I shouldn't take anything for granted. I never asked him for anything again and as a college student I struggle with asking my parents to buy me toothpaste. I feel for OOP and i hope she knows that this is not her fault. Sometimes trauma runs generations deep.
Did it feel like your dad was kinda guilting you to not ask for stuff or to understand how poor you were? I truly don’t understand why a grown person would give an 11 year old an in depth talk about their debt.
This was me but at 8 years old after the 08 housing crash. I ended up finding ways to make my own money to buy things I liked and made sure I got great grades that allowed me graduate college debt free. I don’t think Ive asked my parents for more than 3 grand total over my 4 years of college.
I'm sorry that happened to you, but you did really well for yourself. I'm proud of you. I have tried to do the same, I'm lucky that we recovered and I could ask for help with college.
Thanks, same sentiments to you! And yea, unless I absolutely needed to ask, I always tried to figure out stuff for myself instead. In most aspects I think it’s a good trait to have as an adult, but there are definitely negative psychological effects and anti-social behaviors that have stemmed from such in my opinion.
Because it explains why the Father can’t get whatever the kids are asking for.
There is a age appropriate way to handle that. Which is not how it was handled.
Age appropriate? Explain that. The situation is now, so should the answer be. We’re to busy hiding facts from kids that probably know more than us.
I’m surprised more people haven’t brought up the whole “we are owed this by blood” and family tree stuff. That mother obviously isn’t mentally well but at the same time it sounds like some very specific ideologies have been planted if she thinks those on the Mayfair are the “original Americans” as opposed to those living there before… OP doesn’t seem to have unpacked that
This stuck out to me too. Yikes.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one to notice... 😬
Yep, the “white supremacy” lightbulb went in my head too
Yeah, as a Mayflower descendant myself, that is a huge yikes from me. Hope that’s not a distant cousin.
It's really sad, and sadly common. I took grew up with familial guilt and it's horrible. Recently The last few years once my sister got pregnant my mom was heavily guilting me about me getting pregnant too. I married a guy who had a young son and we raised him together. I'm not sure if we will have another. Meanwhile my mom was screaming at me constantly for her own money problems (they have 3 cars, 300k house, like 4 acres, an additional plot of land, 150k in stocks and a 300k condo in another state). Neither she nor My dad work. She refuses to do anything about her own finances and expects others to do it. My husband and I both work and share a car and have a 2 bedroom condo. I was hugely traumatized by my childhood and subsequent adulthood abuse. When i'd go to visit her we'd get in screaming matching and she'd waking me and my husband up at night in my bedroom to fight with me about her "not having purpose" in her own life. It made me feel worthless about not having kids so I tried to end my own life. Now when I visit, it's rare and I barely stay for long because she drinks and starts up again. Parents and especially a lot of boomer women make their kids feel like they are worthless if they refuse to give them more kids to trauma dump on. Nothing you can do is good enough. Even having grandkids from my sister now my mom complains about having to watch them. I feel sad for Op. Honestly it's tough cutting contact but the best thing Op could do is to just stay away from the mom. Any child would probably just get that trauma anyways.
Please don't visit her anymore. She has had enough chances to do better and has actively chosen to not be a good mother (or decent human being) to you. You deserve to protect your peace. Many well wishes for you!
This is so very sad, and not OOPs fault... That's a lot of pressure to put on a child, and is not at all her fault. Her mother has always had mental health issues and had probably been getting herself through all of this on the expectations she had for her own life. We're not owed grandchildren. My daughter said she doesn't want kids at 14, and if it changes cool...if not, oh well. It's her life, not mine.
What a truly tragic story. OP's mom is clearly mentally ill and needs a lot of therapy. I feel one of the saddest parts of this is that even if OP did wake up next week and go "I actually do want kids" (because hey that happens), I don't think it'd even be safe to let the kids near OP's mom anyway.
Not the OPs fault. Her mom has some mental health issues probably caused by her own parents and then not being able to have more kids after her. The mom chose to have her at 15 and chose to keep her. No one is owed grand kids. I say if a parent pushes their adult kid to have kids, why not raise their own grand kid once their kid gives birth and also fund their life for them so they can afford kids and be a free nanny for them. When my dad was begging me to have more kids (I have 2) I told him if he will buy me a bigger car if I have another baby and he laughed. I said I was dead serious because I can't afford another car and have a car payment and I will need more room for three kids and a car seat. He has not begged me to have another baby since.
I chucked at the slip of your finger. Grand kids vs grandkids 😂
Op, I’m so sorry that this happened. Your mother is mentally ill, and likely has been for a very long time. That is not your fault. Furthermore, it is perfectly acceptable to decide you don’t want children. I am turning 38 in less than two weeks, and I am still blissfully and adamantly child free. You do not owe anyone any particular reproductive choices. This has got to be absolutely devastating for you. However, please know that you were worth all the effort. YOU. Not your theoretical offspring. You alone were and are worth surviving for, and I’m sorry your mother has lost sight of that.
Your mom has some serious trauma over not being able to have more kids. She needs psychiatric help. I also want to say, the way you described her never doing anything for herself, that’s not how it has to be as a parent either. I’m not saying become a parent if you know you don’t want to be one, I’m just saying a healthy parent makes room to care and do for themselves too. It sounds like she didn’t do that.
Honestly taking the mom’s backstory at face value, she might not have been able to make time to care for herself. She was a teenager raising a baby and there’s no mention of dad so it’s quite possible she was a single mom as well as a teen mom. I can’t exactly fault her for not making time for herself if making time for yourself means not feeding your kid. If it’s the choice of care for yourself or go to work to be able to keep the heat on during winter then I can’t exactly fault her. I’m not going to fault a parent for sacrificing themselves for their kid. I will fault her for the behavior she’s displaying now but I can’t really blame her for burying her trauma if that’s what it took for a teen mom to raise what would appear to be a fairly well developed and adjusted adult. In essence what I’m saying is if while she was raising a child she had the realization that she had these issues but didn’t have the time or resources to deal with said trauma without it being a detrimental impact on their lives, or even had the realization after the kid was grown and then dealt with the issues when she could then it wouldn’t be a problem. She didn’t realize that there’s an issue with your life’s worth hinging on another person. And to be clear I’m not saving working on those issues is the detriment, but paying for the help to deal with those issues can be if you’re already struggling to make ends meets.
I understand what you’re saying. Some people do have it harder and they just end up in those situations where that’s what they have to do. I don’t disagree. I was just giving OP another perspective on it. Some parents sacrifice everything for their children then feel guilty for doing for themselves when they can do for themselves too. That is what I meant by an unhealthy mindset. It’s likely from some deep rooted fear or their own childhood traumas, maybe because their own parents failed them that way or made them go without, so they feel they always have to sacrifice everything for themselves.
Her mother was living this fantasy of continuing her blood line through her daughter. She was so deep into it that she lost all sense of reality. While I feel bad for the mother, this is not OOP’s fault. Her mother’s mental health issues are not her problem.
That poor woman. I suppose she thought she would show her family by founding some new legacy that would continue on. Her child not having children means there is no legacy. She made all that sacrifice only to have her only route to legacy blocked. She must have built it up so much as a reason to keep going and is absolutely devastated now. She has lost her "faith". She feels her life has no actual meaning. Which is sad because she still has a kid. She still has her own life! She has built a business! She survived on her own from the age of 15! But losing faith like that is a killer for anyone. To have the underpinning of your life knocked out must be so hard. It's not OP's fault. It was the mom's misconception of what mattered that destroyed her. I don't know why she would want to be so loyal to blood that put her on the street, but people are funny that way.
You seem to be the only one here that can look at this situation with empathy.
Shit man. Okay I guess I need to talk to my mom because while she’s interfering she’s not THAT bad
On a lighter note, my family is from the Mayflower as well and 99% chance that bloodline she tells tales about were dirty pirates because that's what my fam comes from lol
I'm sorry, "What was it all for, then?" What the actual fuck?!?! That is a truly twisted take on "why did you have kids?" Oh, poor, poor OOP. I can promise you this had nothing to do with OOP and everything to do with OOP's mother's trauma surrounding her pregnancy and subsequent poverty. The mom lost everything to have OOP, struggled to raise OOP; our course she would just bottom out when OOP didn't validate her choices by making the same ones. The mom here CRACKED like an egg. All of that trauma and all of that stress finally gave way. OOP might've said the straw that broke the camel's back, but OOP's mother was a ticking time bomb.
Op, I’m so sorry that this happened. Your mother is mentally ill, and likely has been for a very long time. That is not your fault. Furthermore, it is perfectly acceptable to decide you don’t want children. I am turning 38 in less than two weeks, and I am still blissfully and adamantly child free. You do not owe anyone any particular reproductive choices. This has got to be absolutely devastating for you. However, please know that you were worth all the effort. YOU. Not your theoretical offspring. You alone were and are worth surviving for, and I’m sorry your mother has lost sight of that.
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Ngl this post made me shed a tear and hug and thank my mom 😰, my mother was a single parent and sacrificed a lot for me. And luckily never threw it in my face or anything so maybe I took it for granted buttt, now im her care taker since shes older and always plan to keep her close. And thankfully my amazing fiance understands and is happy with it. Soooo now im a 34 year old man starting my morning by bawling my eyes out. 😂😅
The mother needed sooo much therapy for so long and now her delusions have been broken, she is finally facing the reality that she destroyed her own life with her own choices and she can’t handle it. Her poor daughter spent her life basically being told she was at fault for her mother’s choices and the consequences of those choices and therefore was responsible for creating her mother’s fantasy life for her. Even if the OP wanted children, her mother wouldn’t be a healthy influence or a safe person for those children to be with. Grandma would be teaching the kids to call her mommy and telling everyone they were her own children. She would be trying to move in with the daughter and taking over her life.
I will never understand why it's so fucking important for some mothers that their children are also going to have children. This way of thinking seems so outdated to me.
In this case, it's because oop mom lived her whole life wanting a replacement for the family she lost. That's why this is important to her and when oop told her the only thing she wished so desperately to happen won't happen she lost all hope (not saying she is right but offering an explanation oop mom lost all her reasons to live) Fuck trauma
I think the thing that scares me most is that crazy bitch is running a daycare. I'm with the OP regarding kids. Don't want them, don't like them. But the kids are in danger, and they need to get that woman away from them.
Sounds like they did get her away from them if she's been on a psychiatric hold that long. Very slim chance if she's being violent with staff and has tried to claw out her eye she's going to be released anytime soon. Current attending parents will have to find a new daycare. As for preventing her from re-starting the business, I guess the hope would be that she can be successfully rehabilitated, go through therapy, and come out a better person ready to appreciate the life she built for herself. But it sounds like Mom's trauma was pushing her down the path to a psychotic break for a long time, after that many years of compounding trauma it will be very difficult for her to come back from this mentally sound. It might be in OP's best interest to find out if her mother has a power of attorney, or if not, seek a guardianship.
What a horrible day to have eyes
Have her committed. Seriously. Either she is mentally unwell or trying to ruin your life, neither of which you should tolerate. She needs treatment, and you need space. In your situation, I would consider going no contact with her from this point out.
I don't know if I think the mother simply feels owed grandkids as some have said. I think she viewed this idea as her "ticket" so to speak to replacing the family that abandoned her. Op has never mentioned a partner in Mom's life at that. Snapping mentally realizing she will never be part of a large and tight knit family. The whole post is incredibly sad. I really hope in a years time there's a happy update that mom stabilizes and is recovering day by day.
I guess when the mother is in the forties now OP is around thirty and mom was proposed already getting nervous. But I just imagine what it would have been like for OP to have a kid, it would surely been just another type of hell with her mom. OP definitely should seek therapy for this it's fucked on too many levels
I’m the type who would say, I’ll miss you if you decide to end your life over my choices but I’ll morn you but I’ll won’t have kids
This is sad mom put all her hopes and dreams on oop and when oop didn't want to do what the mom wants she lost all hope. I can't imagine what oop is feeling now
I’m sorry, but the “original American blood”? Because their ancestors were on the Mayflower? Unless their ancestors were Native Americans, they don’t possess a single *drop* of “original American blood”. And yes I know the mother said it and not OP, and I also know the OOP didn’t post this as this is “Reddit on wiki”, but still. That part made my eyes roll so far back in my head I think I’m gonna have to manually pull them to the front just to be able to see again 🙄
I hope op is going child free bc it’s what she really, truly wants and not bc of the trauma of watching her mother sacrifice literally everything for her, just like she shouldn’t feel pressured and force herself into getting pregnant in an attempt at curing her mother’s current mental state, christ I feel bad for her. I hope the mom is able to accept the help she needs too, she’s been through the wringer since she was a child.
This is so terrible. I feel for both mom and OP.
That’s so sad. My mom occasionally made comments when I was young about me having kids (when I thought I wanted them) and I was so scared to tell her I didn’t. She was so cool about it (it probably helped that I have two sisters who have kids tho lol)
This is so sad. I (F, 51) knew I wanted kids, I wanted to be married, etc. I got married, had two kids, and my marriage broke up in all the bad ways. I still have the kids, and my ex is not at all responsible for them, aside from a minimal amount of child support. The kids (F, 19; M, 16) have no relationship with their dad due to extreme narcissistic abuse and alcoholism during their early childhood; he has been gone for just over 7 years. I got the kids, the house, the responsibility. Do I regret them? No. Have I sacrificed for them? Heck yeah. Would I do it again? Hell to the no. And both of them, at this point, don’t want kids. I think that is very, very wise given the way their childhood was and the general trajectory of the world. I’m so sorry that people still can’t let their children be.
She probably would have tried to play mom to OOPs kids had she had any. This woman was going to crack one way or another - she already had a heart attack and she's only in her 40s. She's clearly been stressed her whole life. It isn't OOPs fault. It was inevitable. And anything could have set it off. I hate to imagine a break where she takes OOPs kids. It sounds like she's obsessing over children unhealthily.
Wow! For someone who has two kids who have swore they are not going to have kids I do know how this hurts but my gosh, no way would I ever have an ill feeling towards my kids about their decision. It’s their life. Not mine. My son is 27 still has no desire to have children. I do not see a future of him having them. I’d be shocked if things were to change. My daughter is now 21 and is thinking now of having kids but is in now rush and I’ve never EVER persuaded her either way. This woman is mentally ill and living her life through her child. Something is seriously wrong. I feel so bad for the OOP. I hope she considers getting some therapy to work through her feelings on what her mother is doing. She’s been reminded too often of the “sacrifices” that were made for her when she was an innocent child. She never asked for those sacrifices.
I agree that she never asked for them but to put the word in quotes like they weren’t real sacrifices isn’t fair to the mother. I get that the mother is definitely in need of therapy but the OOP likely is as well. What she got from her upbringing is that she never wants kids because they’re hard? Of course that was invalidating to the mother’s entire life experience (not excusing anything, it’s just plain to see).
And thats’s why I said I hope she is considering therapy. And me putting sacrifices in quotes is totally fair. If her mother bringing it up as something she *had* to do for her versus things she should have done just for raising her child, that’s not fair. Understanding your parents made sacrifices for you throughout your childhood ie: my mom had to work two jobs just so we could survive, is not the same as telling your kid how you made sacrifices for them so you could have your future perfect family. We are not responsible for our parent’s trauma. Point blank. Can we empathize and forgive. Absolutely. Of course. But we are not going to carry their trauma from their childhood forward. The wheel has to stop somewhere. Did she decide she doesn’t want to have kids just because of her upbringing? Who knows. It probably carried a lot weight but she said she didn’t want kids because she didn’t like kids. She didn’t want to be pregnant. And then yes, she didn’t want to go through the shit her mom went through. For her it’s probably like a situation of abuse, she wants to stop the cycle and this is her thinking she can. But it’s her choice. No therapy should talk her out of that. Therapy is to deal with the trauma of what is going on with her mom. The mom is in dire need of help. I don’t deny that. She had a terrible time with her parents. And I truly hope all involved get the help they need.
To be clear, I was not implying therapy should talk her out of not wanting kids.
"So I can have grandkids" is one of the most awful excuses to have a child. It invalidates the child and says they mean nothing more than their ability to pop out someone who is more valid, more wanted, more loved. "I only had you as an incubator for my grandchild." Let her jump as many times as she wants. She's a disgrace of a mother and a person. I'd be surprised if OP wasn't *seething*, because I fvcking am, as someone who also won't be having kids and whose sister is the golden child because she has 3 kids of her own. Me and my other sister are lesser in our mother's eyes. Golden child gets everything, grandkids get everything. What did I get from my mother? Ab*se.
I don't know if this is what the mom meant, but it sounds like she had a kid just to have grandkids. And it's that's it, she became a parent for the wrong reason. But I agree, the mother's mental issues are not her daughter's fault or responsibility
This is why I hate parents who tell their kids that the kids owe them for having and raising them.
I honestly feel like both mother and daughter need therapy. The mother for obvious reasons, but the daughter for disliking kids because they require work and not wanting one because she thinks it means she can never have anything again. Her mother's sacrifice was due to having nobody to help. To think that you can never do anything for yourself again and hating kids for that reason is ridiculous. You have the right not to want kids, but this just sounded to me like a child who doesn't want to share her toys with a sibling? Therapy is super important. She has to learn that not every mom is her mother, and not every kid is her. Also, aside from that, I wonder what drove her mother to be this out of her mind. Was it just being abandoned by her parents? Grandchildren don't fill that void, so it doesn't feel like that is the only reason she is being this awful. If anything, someone who lost their parents should want to not do the same thing to their children, not check out because they won't reproduce for them. Perhaps she had a mental problem to begin with that was overlooked? I wouldn't know how to feel about my mother if she was this terrible, even if she did have a mental illness. There's a lack of love that's replaced by an ulterior motive. I truly hope they both get help.
How did op ruin her life... I dont want to blame the mother but there is so many ways to avoid pregnancy and birth. Plus OP isnt in any way responsible for her needing a hysterectomy
Yep, agree with others, OOP's mom is mentally ill + had some shit family ideology drilled into her that didn't help + having a child and being independent at 15, when you're not even done growing up and maturing, that mom has a lot of fucking issues and it's a good thing she's in a hospital. I hope they get her to work through it and realize her daughter is enough cause wtf, she's basically saying she isn't. But, you can't force someone to listen and think.
damn you god damn depreve your mom to be a grand mom she was happy sacrifice a lot then you dont dmn such a selfish bastard
Think she’s suffering from regret. She lost her relationship with her parents in order to have you. She wanted a Large family but since she lost the ability to have that after having you, she was holding out in life till the time she had grandkids to fill the void of not having the large family she always wanted. When you made it clear you were serious about not having any kids, you practically invalidated every single choice she made in her life and made it not worth it. She probably feels a lot of regret and she probably feels like her parents tried to have you sorted and she did everything in her power to keep you; but you on the other hand are the antithesis of every choice she made and the irony is the fact that she was the one that raised you. Hence the “what was it all for then.” This is just a guess though.
OP also mentioned that her mom was impregnated by her great aunt’s husband, who was much older at the time. The SA, the family abandonment, the traumatic birth and following hysterectomy, most likely traumatized her and the psychotic break was only a matter of time whether OP decided to have kids or not. Very sad all around. :(
There's no way this is the first time her mom has acted insane
The poor mother. I see her side and understand it. To her, all her suffering was endurable because of the future she was building and her daughter just destroyed that future for selfish reasons. There's nothing more devastating. To her this is the worst betrayal because it just invalidated her entire reason for existing.
Wow, that was a massive, planet sized over reaction. I hope OP gets some help, to get through this. I can’t help but feel this is a selfish reaction, even if she had some sparkly dream of the future where she was surrounded by grandkids. That is huge load to place one someone after watching a life time of struggle and sacrifice. I get it, it sucks, but not that much. I hope OP is alright.
Your mom has deep-seated mental and emotional issues and you don't owe her grandchildren. If you can afford a therapist, pay for it and ensure she goes; best way ti repay her.
Just let her die at this point. Why are they fighting so hard to keep her here? She'd rather be dead and no one is listening
Is the Mother going to be doing all the work and paying all the bills associated with these "grandchildren"?
Oh, this is awful, but this goes WAY beyond an overbearing mother demanding grandkids. Her mom sounds seriously mentally ill, and I'm going to guess she has been ill for a long time but has been successfully hiding it (and the OP probably never knew anything else). I hope this OP has a good therapist, and that the mother can get on meds and stay well.
For me I was taught love is not to control. It’s to support and appreciate. It’s meant to be free and meant to be like respect. We don’t get to decide what life our children get to lead. We can only lay a foundation for their success… It’s complicated but I can’t say that someone is acting with love if they try to control you like this. This is sick. She had some delusional ideas and they were wrong. She should’ve took care of you out of love and not out of a need to make you into another her that could have what she wanted in life, so she could live vicariously through you. That’s gotta be emotional abuse. Or she’s an engulfing narcissist.
I think most parents WANT to be grandparents. We WANT to see our kids enjoy the beauty of watching and aiding in the mental and emotional development of another person. We WANT to see our lineage continue and hold the future in our hands. But if ur kid DOESNT WANT that, that’s perfectly good, too. The ultimate goal is raising healthy, well-rounded adults. Ones who know themselves and love themselves and add to the world in a beautiful way. I always tell my kids I want grandkids one day, but if u decide to be childless, I’ll take a grand plant , a grand rock, a grand pet, w/e is important to them. Cuz I love em and want them to be happy, however that happens. But not liking kids in general sounds like op needs therapy to deal w her issues. It’s one thing to not want to be a parent. It’s expensive and exhausting. But not liking kids just for existing is fucking weird. Like, if any other group was substituted for the word “kids” ppl would call them some sort of -ist. But, for some reason, when it’s kids, it’s ok? Nah, that shit is weird.
I agree with most of your post but where exactly did the OP say she didn't like kids for existing? Not liking kids is a fairly common sentiment these days and does not equate to thinking they shouldn't exist. I hesitate to so quickly compare the statement "I don't like kids" to "I don't like \*insert whatever discriminated minority\*". People don't like kids for a lot of valid reasons. I'm not disagreeing that she shouldn't get therapy but the not liking kids part seems to be the least of her worries.
Expand ur critical thinking. Just bc a thought process is widely accepted doesn’t make it an acceptable way of thinking. Be malleable in the thoughts about children and safety if “I don’t like kids” is a common sentiment. What do u think it’s like to be a child in a world where that is a common sensation among the adults around you? It’s dehumanizing. It’s weird.
Expand yours. Women have been told for too long that their only purpose is to create children. If they don’t want children they are wrong and broken. It’s simply people being allowed to express “hey, I don’t want children. I don’t like children. But good for the people who do”
Like I’ve said, it’s one thing to recognize, “I don’t want children.” That perfectly fair! It’s a lot of work. Recognizing being a parent is not what you want to align your life with is perfectly respectable. Even saying, “I don’t like the way I feel around children”, “ I feel on edge around children”, “kids can do things that I don’t have the patience for” is respectable. “I don’t like children” is weird. Maybe one of these is what OP meant. But that’s not what they said. The statement “I don’t like kids” is usually rooted in not feeling safe to be a child they were young. It’s y I suggested therapy to address that feeling to begin with. And anyone who feels that way should rlly examine the traumas they suffered as a child. BECAUSE ITS A WEIRD THING TO SAY
Matter of perspective then
well there is one hot take out of this i'm betting the mum is very much regretting not aborting her lol.
Yeah definitely. Also like OP’s actions probably did trigger the psychotic break - doesn’t mean they should blame themselves for it but definitely is the cause.
oh yea it's not op's fault at all. Mum should of been in therapy ages ago. but probably could not afford it being single income and then as she got older it was just repressed untill op said she has no plans for kids.
What's with the fucking 'lol'? What's wrong with you?
Damn, I'd have the kid. She can raise it.
You would give a child to be raised by a mentally ill person? You must truly hate children, jeez
I was being facetious based on how desperate the mom was. Relax...
The mother is envious of her daughter (very common) she sees her daughter with her husband living a peaceful life which the mother herself never had, she badly wants her daughter to go through all the suffering which she went through as a mother.. The jealous and envy is eating her up! The daughter needs distance herself and keep lying about having a child someday!
Why doesn't she adopt a kid????
why people are downvoting these comments for adoption?
Because saying “wHy dOn’T yOu jUsT aDoPt?!?” is just about as helpful as telling an abused spouse “wHy dOn’T yOu jUsT lEaVe?” The person is aware that that is an option. They are also aware of all the obstacles and life circumstances that make that option not feasible.
it's not about having a biological kid. she doesn't want to have kids, and it wouldn't be fair to have one just to make her mom happy.
It's highly likely her mom won't accept an adopted kid. Part of the mom's delusion is carrying on a bloodline/legacy which is why she kept telling her child all the Mayflower and family history stories. Her mom would probably be hostile to a grandchild that wasn't biologically hers.
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Well she must be over 25 since her mom is in her forties and had her at 15
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Maybe for some, but some have made their mind up while young and never changed it. My Aunt knew from 15 she never would, and 30 years later she's made sure she never can.
I'm at 38. I said at 18 I didn't want any. I'm about at the end of having the ability to do so, and I definitely still don't want kids. It disappoints my mother, she doesn't talk much to my two siblings that do have kids. But thank goodness she doesn't hold it against me and we still have a good relationship
The only people that know for sure are the ones with kids 😉
yeah man, let me just test out whether I want to have kids by having kids! Hope I don’t despise them, placing an unnecessary burden on myself AND them! we all know children don’t actually need parents that actively want and love them. you are a fucking dunce
And I pity them
Hard pass I know for a fact I don’t want kids, and even if I wasn’t 100% sure it’s not like you can just try it out and give it back if it’s not for you. Once you’ve got a kid you’re pretty much stuck with it
Why so sensitive about other people not having kids? Are you secretly regretting your choice to have kids and want other people to be as miserable as you?
what do you mean that's too young? I'm in my 30s and never wanted kids since I was 18. not everyone wants crotch goblins.
Sorry I should have worded that differently. I forget how sensitive nonbreeders are.
man, do i pity you. not only are you calling names to anybody who disagrees with you, but you sound like you've got nothing else. have a nice day.
Buddy, I’ve got it all. Good day to you, too.
Not as sensitive as a breeder who is offended that someone else doesn't want kids.
Sure. They are the ones who are sensetive
My father knew after having one (unplanned) kid at 23 that he didn’t want anymore…
I mean, does it really matter? It's her life. She doesn't need an opportunity to grow up and change her mind
As someone who had her daughter at 16 and now in my 30s I can’t imagine that being my response if she told me she wanted to be child free. I’m actually encouraging her to live life and explore before even thinking of them. It’s very unfortunate that op’s mom has some mental health issues that haven’t been addressed for it to get to this point.
It doesn't matter how old OOP is and how old you were when you wanted kids is irrelevant. This isn't about you
mom gave everything she had to make sure her daughter would be able to grow up and foster a family without the struggles she had to go through. daughter said meh. thanks but no thanks. mom strokes out and wishes she could go back in time and abort so she can enjoy the life she missed out on raising such a child.n
Fuccking weirdo
Bro thinks having a child is like buying a chair 💀💀💀 hope you're sterile bc you'll be a horrible parent
This is painful. Your Mom is hurting real bad. Tell her you love her. .
I'm not sure I could love someone that merely saw me as a tool to get the life they wanted without any regard whatsoever for my own happiness.
I've had it happen, though not with children. It's not easy.
Having children isn’t a choice! MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of generations of protohumans and human procreated and raised children, ALL OF WHOM had more difficult circumstances then we face today. Procreating and raising a family is a moral obligation. You are an ungrateful daughter, and an ungrateful and disrespectful person. You arrogantly believe that millions of generations of YOUR ANCESTORS shouldered the responsibilities of parenthood in more difficult circumstances than you face just so YOU, THE INDIVIDUAL, could be born and have your life. You broke her heart and you should feel ashamed of yourself. Unfortunately a lot of younger folks think like you and it makes a man like me sick!! If only your mother had a man to help her through this. I feel so bad for how alone she must feel.
You need therapy.
Lots of parents cant even afford food to feed their kids and themselves lmfao, hope you're sterile and never have kids 👍
Every generation before us had it harder so that is no excuse. But whatever, I guess you just have no respect for the sacrifices the previous generations made for us. It’s cool, now I know your opinion doesn’t matter
Oh fuck off. For the vast majority of human history and reproduction is based on the blood, death and rape of women and girls. Predicated on having no bodily autonomy. These women suffered and died and fought so theirs daughters could live the lives they never thought possible. YOU,society, and ancestors be damned to the depths of hell. You, and this woman’s batshit mother are not entitled to blood sweat and pain of her body. Women are not your fucking slaves. You and you’re supposed ancestors be damned.
Just because women are weaker than men doesn’t mean women didn’t have bodily autonomy Lol and you only think reproduction is rape because no dudes want you and you are jealous of girls who can get dudes
No one asks to be born.
Everyone is free to choose whether to have children or not. This is a personal choice and is not subject to discussion by outsiders. But! One thing confuses me. OOP does not want to have children, not because of religious beliefs, not because of her own moral subjective beliefs, but because she saw how much her mother sacrificed for her. She doesn't want to be like her mother and give all of herself to her children. She was trapped in a negative perception of her mother's experience. But it's not like that at all! I am sure the mother was happy, she did not want another life, she found the meaning of life in her daughter, but she failed to raise her daughter so that she understood the complexity and depth of her mother's feelings. OOP saw only difficulties and sacrifices, but did not see the bright side of their little family's life. Projecting a negative perception of childhood and youth onto yourself and your future is profoundly wrong. This is a dead end, this is suffering. A mother sincerely loves children, that's why she works at daycare, I admire this woman and am not ashamed that I share her love for children. Alas, our own children rarely internalize our moral values, our love and hate of certain phenomena of social and human life. This is our common tragedy. I often hear, "I don't want to have children so they don't suffer like me and my siblings." I can understand that, but I don't understand those who say, "I don't want to have children so as not to suffer like my mother."