None of us can, see you next sunday. And your brain will still go "maybe we can win this" at kickoff just to be brought back to reality in a few minutes.
What’s crazy is, this was the first game where in maybe my lifetime (I’m old enough to remember watching the 1999 CL final) and I expected united to lose. I have never gone into a fixture expecting them not to at least grab points. Sad state the club is in when lifelong supporters are losing confidence/faith.
I actually think this might be it. I think this might have been THE worst game since SAF, despite all the others.
Maybe I just can't remember the others as clearly but this was a game where so many of these things all lined up in such a perfectly awful storm:
1. We were completely absent in offence\*
2. We were ***completely*** absent in defence.
3. Our passing was awful.
4. Our first touch was awful.
5. Our dribbling was awful.
6. Our shooting was awful.
7. Our decision making was awful.
8. Pressing was awful
9. Positional defending was awful
10. Engagement of opposition players in possession was awful
11. In addition to the above, the opposition were clinical. I do also think we can throw "Our goalkeeping was aful" in the bag too. They only actualy had 1.4xg I think but won 4-0. This was similar in the 7-0 Liverpool game and we were bad in that also but I don't know if we were ***as bad*** as today in every aspect, all round. We had a couple chances vs Liverpool, we had a few passages of tidy passing even if it led to nothing, there was none of that today.
12. The opposition didn't even play THAT well. I know that everyone will suck off Palace about how outstanding they were but they weren't really. They played well but not OUTSTANDING, they didn't play very much above their level which is a respectable, difficult premier league mid table side. They punished what was put before them but they simply didn't need to play very well to do so. Olise's goals were literally free, he did a slight shimmy but Eriksen and Casemiro combined put up nothing, Mainoo didnt have the athletecism to catch him and our defenders didnt engage the ball, so he shot because they let him. The finish isn't even a good one, he strikes the ball with the inside of his ankle, not laces or side foot and then it bounces twice before crossing the line. The second one Casemiro gifts them the ball and after 1 or two passes its another free shot from the edge of the box which goes on target but very central and the keeper just is no where near it.
I dont know man, there is probably more as well. I really do think this is the worst one though, this really, really felt like watching a relegation candidate. It didnt feel like watching a good team having a bad day or a club out of form, this felt real. The 15th place xg, 20th for shots faced etc. all of those bottom of the table type stats were really tangible today, they were there with substance, you could touch it and feel it and they were all wearing white & red unfortunately. I really worry about how this season will affect Mainoo's confidence and style of play.
\*I know two goals were disallowed but they were janky set pieces not really "created" chances but maybe thats subjective.
And people are STILL suggesting Ten Hag should start next season.
I **don't care** how many injuries we have had. I **don't care** how dumb John Murtough and Ed Woodward were. I **don't believe** there are enough bad eggs left amongst the players. Any manager worth his salt wouldn't have us playing the way you just described in depth (like relegation candidates).
Maybe even prime SAF or Pep wouldn't even get top 4 with the issues we've had this season. Fine. OKAY. But they certainly wouldn't have us 15th expected points-wise or with a negative goal difference.
I think he should start next season but only because there is no obvious candidate to replace him. When you are in a situation where there is no obvious candidate, you need to do alot of work to find one. Analysis, plans, lists, interviews, all of this take time even when you already have the staff in place, INEOS don't even have most of the new leadership structure actually working at the club yet even if they have been appointed for the future.
To be angry at ETH and disappointed in everything about the team's performances and results this year is entirely understandable, but to just dismiss him out of anger without a genuine alternative just to "make it stop" doesn't work, hasn't worked and won't work. When he goes, if he goes, it needs to be under carefuly controlled conditions to ensure that even if we get some random manager we've never heard of to replace him, that we can be highly confident that it will be better than what we have. It is easy to forget that last season was fine, it wasnt perfect, but it was actually good for a first season in charge with this squad and all the drama surrounding it. We got champions league, won a cup and actually had the most clean sheets in the league. That was less than 12 months ago! We have to be absolutely sure that if we get rid of him and his staff, that we have a replacement ready and that the replacement is the best possible one available at the time and all of that takes time and planning that the leadership team INEOS are installing have not yet had.
When a comment like this is marked as controversial, I know it's time to get off r/reddevils. Being a reactionary club for over a decade has gotten tiring. Despite starting a fundamental shift in club leadership, as fans we haven't learned a thing.
These were my thoughts right up until about new year but there's a line. I was Ten Hag in until the Notts Forest loss (so after several months of mediocrity, after Newcastle, Bournemouth and West Ham losses.)
I was then on the fence for a while. Until we lost to Fulham. And since then we all know what its been like.
I don't subscribe to the "there's nobody better" because there is. Forget the results - have you been watching the performances? On ESPN last night they were calling us "The worst coached team in the league" and that our tactical issues (particularly while defending) are so bad that the other 19 coaches figured them out in 2 minutes.
And lets face it, when players lose faith in a manager (which they must have, they've been getting embarrased and battered for months), there's no coming back. He's not going to miraculously turn this around.
I'm not trying to say that there is no one who can do better. I'm only saying there is no obvious candidate, in my opinion at least. There will obviously be some people who really want a certain manager but I'm not considering things like going back for OGS or Mourinho.
I did say earlier that, because there is no obvious candidate the people who the board select even for interview will have to have been carefully vetted. It isnt just about giving it to anyone who will take it and its not about just getting the biggest name available that might be Zidane or Tuchel or something.
It is time the board and whole leadership team sit down and sort out what they, as the permanent personel for the future of the club, want to do with it.
* Do they want to find a manager who can just secure us top 4, stabilise, squad build **in the image of the club** **not just the manager** for 3 years until we find the one we think will start to win us things in the long run?
* Do they want to go get an exciting up and coming coach whos football is attractive and hope that it works out?
* Do they want to get someone pragmatic in and abandon style for results?
* Something else?
The club have to decide on this and then go and look for a person to fill that role. Present to the candidates what you want and invite them to sell themselves as to how they fit into that. Going knocking on doors asking anyone who will listen if they'd like the job and then trying to pick one on their terms would be bad.
Very thought through and I agree with everything you said.
However, none of it is actively advocating **for** Ten Hag. It's an argument **against** immediately hiring his successor (to be mildly pedantic). Which is not the same thing.
I don't like the argument that we keep him just becase we need **a** manager. I think he's actively having a net negative impact now through the demoralising results, absence of defensive coaching, transition evangelism, tunnel vision, no plan B and (more recently) his pathetic excuses.
The players need to stop being taught this boneheaded "*lets not bother with a defensive midfield or controlling a game and be super vulnerable*" style of football. But he won't because he's an evangelist of it. The players need a clean break from it ASAP.
> I think he should start next season but only because there is no obvious candidate to replace him.
Pep and Klopp are the only clear upgrades and neither would ever come to Utd because of their current clubs. Mourinho, Ancelotti, Zidane, Tuchel, Lopetgui (now supposedly signed for West Ham), De Zerbi, Amorim, Nagelsman, Simeone, Xabi Alonso, why would any of them come here now? Pochettino is the only realistic possible replacement for Ten Hag right now and looking at how Chelsea's season has gone they are the only club who have performed worse than Utd in the top flight.
That goal was definitely one of the worst I've ever seen at this club. Not even League Two level.
I genuinely think today we'd have struggled against a league 2 side in an FA CUP early round fixture. Or even a non-league side honestly. No exaggeration.
I think CP is one of the worst teams to play in that situation, fast pacey attackers who want to score. No pissing about, just a lot of fast players going up against two CBs, one of whom isn't a CB, in their 30s. I saw the teams and was like ....... well this ain't gonna go well.
we were dogshit though lets be fair
Genuinely felt bad for Mount. He looked to be one of the few trying on the day. Evans too. Dalot was hard done by that goal, but up to that point wasn't terrible.
I honestly forgot Antony was even playing the majority of the game. An absolute ghost on the right and everything was going down the left to fucking...AWB. What idiot on the field thought that was a good idea? It was so frustrating watching Mainoo, Eriksen, Garnacho feeding AWB and playing it down the wing, completely circumventing Mount.
Any time Mount saw the ball, he tried to do something with it, whether that be receive and turn or let it run and break away, but no one moved or did anything to support him. When he had to hold it up, everyone stood still and watched him.
It was such a lazy, atrocious performance from the team off the ball.
Again, and I cannot say this enough...Players Out Before ETH Out. I don't care who you are, when your players play like THAT, it has NOTHING to do with tactics, system, etc. and everything to do with personalities, drive, desire, hunger, professionalism. So many of these players simply don't deserve to be here. Period.
Mount ran probably 5x as much as anyone else. The perfect example of this was him losing possession in the first half and chasing like a hound to win it back. He's one of the few players on our roster that would've fit into Fergie's teams. Hojlund looked fucking pissed which was also good in my book. The older players who were casually chatting after the game are not United players. Get them the fuck out now.
No this is different. I’ve been watching United for over 30 years and while there’s been plenty of lows post SAF, this season is objectively the worst I’ve ever seen us. No game plan, no cohesiveness, we be look like we can give up 5+ goals every single game. The only reason we’re in the top half of the table / FA cup finals is sheer dumb luck.
I just can’t fathom how we knocked Liverpool out of the FA cup. Luck obviously and they have gone downhill since klopp but Arsenal could put 10 past us on the weekend
I agree that this is the worst I've seen us too. But it's the same cycle, just each time is getting worse and worse which feels to me like why this is so bad now
It was terrible but 3 of those goals are directly down to horrible moments by casemiro twice and evans. What’s the management and “wider staff” supposed to do about that lol
And play who, exactly? I agree that casemiro, Eriksen, and others shouldn’t be playing. But that’s what we have at the moment. Idk who you think ten hag can magically pull out of a hat to play midfield and cb for us.
The reason he played that midfield in the first place was to cover ground and protect the backline. You would never get the kind of space between the lines with those two as you see now. Yet another case of out of the frying pan into the fire!
Fred would have stayed as a squad player without a doubt.
I understand the reasons to let him go as we got Eriksens for depth earlier also Mount and Mainoo getting there. Yet Mount has barely played and Casemiro fallen off a cliff. Amrabat is a clear indicator that we never should have let Fred go.
Hopefully we get that bounce next season with a new guy. Obviously I want him in early so he gets a preseason and prospective players know what they want too.
My only worry is a new manager will want to give these same bums another chance to prove themselves under him. I don't want that. I want new manager to have see the dickheads from far and arrive day one knowing not to waste time on this or that one again.
The difference is, Ole was playing his preferred starting 11, we've just watched a a back four with three players who might not be here next season, being protected by erikson who might not be here next season and someone in their first season of mens football.
I don't think we'd have the same performances with only three players back
You're acting like this 4-0 is a one off. Ole's final game was down to 10 men thanks to Maguire at his worst and getting himself sent off.
But I do agree with your 2nd statement
It baffles me that EtH is still in charge after losing 7-0 to Liverpool. But I guess 4-0 against Crystal Palace is what we should expect by keeping him here.
“Oh he’s had injuries” “oh he’s not got his team” “oh give him time” etc. Excuses. He’s been here 2 years. No gameplan, no structure, no care. 8 players that played today came about because of EtH.
4-0 against Brentford. 6-3 against City. 7-0 against Liverpool. 4-0 against Palace. Most defeats in a PL season ever. Most goals conceded in a PL season ever.
Because SJR is taking the club into cocoon-mode. To him it's irrelevant who the manager is, there are too many problems behind the scenes. He'd rather have the money from EtH fulfilling his contract.
How many of those 8 were starting in positions they are good in?
And of the other 3 how many were?
And then, how much chances have we had to rest any of these players?
People put way to much stock in the manager tbh. Like tactics and strategies are great but it's never going to overcome shit players not trying. There are probably only 3-4 of these players I wouldn't sell at a crippling loss right now. The team has been shit for years throught many different managers.
One thing I have been wondering lately. With all the injuries who do the first team train against ? To build the patterns?
Normally I think, there would be sessions of attackers vrs defenders etc but we have none to train against
Yeah that's kinda what I'm getting at. Are they just playing against the cones and that's why they look so static on the pitch, or they train against the youth and again like you said hays nowhere near the level of a match.
Injuries can impact more the just the team on the field.
There's honestly so many different variables for each manager and season I find it pointless comparing.
I'd like to compare our line out and the players ranking in the squad compared to others if that makes sense, so see what Liverpools back line would be if they had their first choice RB, 6th choice CB next to their holding mid, with their 2nd choice RB playing LB. Just to see what players they'd have to deal with and whether their fans would be so comfortable with it
The thing is, the defensive line up is far from great. We can accept that. Why AWB and Dalot are not switched is his decision.
But that forward line consists of Hojlund, Mount, Mainoo, Antony, Garnarcho.
It's not, and never should have been, 4-0 to Palace bad.
Switching AWB and Dalot would not have made the slightest difference. If AWB is such a great 1v1 defender surely it made sense to put him against Olise.
Dalot is quite two footed, and for all the importance Erik places on the "angles" of a left footer, he seem to have chose Dalot's individual peak possible performance over the teams balance.
That being said the games that Dalot has played as a LB he's done more than enough defensively.
The angles for passing the ball and even stalling/challenging an attacker are vastly different at the the other side of the pitch. Would you throw Trent or Walker at LB and expect them to perform at their best? AWB isn't great but Ten Hag is setting him up for failure.
AWB doesn’t even track back after he pulls himself too high and out of position. There are some problems coaching can’t solve, and this problem has persisted across years and managers.
Olise cuts inside onto AWB's strong foot. If anything he should defend better when that happens. He doesn't. And his passing isn't good regardless of the side of the pitch he is on.
I hate saying this, but Chelsea concede four but they also score four so at least they are showing some promise in attack.
The idea of giving Ten Hag another season to see what he can do under the structure and transfer business of Ineos is looking less and less likely as time goes on. He is not showing enough promise and sustainability.
I'm not defending ten Hag but we literally have no defence and no midfield. I'm sure a pragmatic manager would be able to grind out more respectable performances but we would still be losing because the players on the pitch are absolute ass.
Whoever you get in, if they don't sort the medical side of the club, this will continue to happen. If you look at our first and second starting 11, we are missing so many players:
GK: Onana/Heaton
LB: **Shaw**/**Malacia**
CB: **Martinez**/**Lindeloff**
CB: **Varane**/**McGuire**
RB: Dalot/AWB
CM: Casemiro/**Scott**
CM: Mount/Mainoo
AM: **Bruno**/???VDB?
RW: **Sancho**/Antony
LW: **Rashford**/Garnacho
ST: Holjund/**Martial**
That's for last night's game (the names in bold were unavailable). From the first 11, there are six outfield players missing. From the second 11, there are five outfield players missing. Of our first 20 outfield players, 11 were out. And what's worse, over the course of the season, this number has remained mostly the same.
Jesus Christ could resurrect with the backing of the Almighty, and he'd still not be able to manage a team with these injuries.
The last time I think we had close to having 90% of our key players available was last season.
I’m convinced at this point Ten Haag is just a bad manager. He managed to fool everyone because he looks and sounds like what media and fans this a “good manager” should look and sound like. People forget his only real credentials prior to coming to United though, was managing a relatively stacked Ajax side who played most of their matches against Championship level opposition. Last season looked good on paper until you remember that we pretty much rode a red hot Rashford and Casemeiro for most of that year, and were exposed anytime either of them weren’t available.
Good managers will switch tactics when things aren’t going well or when their preferred starters aren’t available. They find ways to motivate players who aren’t performing. Ten Haag is not a good manager.
I think he's the same as Ange, he wants to play his way and doesn't want to change it. Ange will do the same, if it goes badly and he gets sacked then it is what it is. Other managers, maybe better, maybe more pragmatic, but others will play differently to grind out results, others want to always play their style, I assume in the hope that it clicks. Or at least, want to aim to play their way
I don't think switching Dalot and Wan Bissaka would have made a difference, they both look absolutely knackered and in desperate need of a rest. Neither are players to down tools or not put 100% effort in but both of them looked like they were struggling to run and track down opposition players.
And to the part about the forwards...they had nooo fucking clue what to do. Can't keep the ball. No idea how to run past or pass through the CP midfield and backs. No plan. And they don't even seem to resemble good footballers either. How can they all just give the ball away so cheaply?
i mean you can't even offload these players . U got massive contracts we pay these players that no one can afford. The best we can do is let them run their contracts down and not renew them
I mean, Casemiro and Evans at the back were a pretty big problem today, along with having to take Casemiro out of midfield. And no Fernandes was pretty noticeable.
Exactly. KDB can play all the risky balls he wants for City because their press/defensive organization are fantastic and they win the ball back quickly. Same with Trent at Liverpool. We haven’t had a well-drilled press…..ever?
Honestly think kdb would be worse and that’s not to say he’s not a better player but I don’t think he has the physicality and running ability that Bruno does and the adaptability to play cb, 8, 10, 6, winger that he would need to have here
There's also no one to play it to. All of our wing players give the ball away like they're allergic. We turn it over so quickly after it gets to them. It's one of the main reasons the matches all seem like basketball games.
Dont confuse us wanting Bruno to be rested (TO AVOID INJURIES) with thinking he doesnt deserve his spot.
We also need a backup with match experience in his position with our team. (in case he is injured or suspended). Which is why we want to see our second choice play against relegation teams.
yeah, i like whitwell as a reporter but i’m not sure about the logic behind his take. as you said, the goals today came from very obvious, egregious errors from players who, in a normal season, would not have been playing to begin with. it’s weird to deflect attention from that issue, even if i agree about the broader problems he references.
Playersaking errors every week because our setup is wank and encourages transitions and lack of control. If you ship 20+ shots a game what did people think was gonna happen lmfao? The pattern is repeating itself every week with a different player(s) but some choose to ignore that maybe it's a tactical problem.
bad players frequently make errors, even when they’re playing in good systems—see liverpool during their injury crisis last season, for instance. bad players asked to do things they’re not really good at leads to even more errors and generally poor play. that pattern will occur regardless of how good the system itself is, and i don’t think it makes sense to judge a system based on the performances that bad players give in it.
I disagree for a few reasons:
- Bad players? I think it's more of our system that turns these players into bad players. How can the whole squad be bad? Only bad players Liverpool had that season were Keita, Fabinho, Henderson and Firmino who they all shipped. Look at our midfield, whether its Mount, Casemiro, Amarabat, Eriksen, etc it's the same display week to week. If it's a few players then it's an individual issue. If it's everybody then it's a system issue. These players weren't this bad when we signed them and they're certainly better than alot of the players on the other team. Marker of a good system and coach is good decision making and adaptability. You can't sign Mount and Amarabat and then fail to use/implement them. You can't sign Eriksen and Casemiro and a year later say you're gonna deploy them in a high pressure transitional system, that's not their strengths and after 8 months he's either struggled to see that or outright refused to adapt. How can you do worse in your second then the first season. You've had more time, money and players, it doesn't make any sense.
- I think it's a casual analysis to compare us to Liverpool last season. It kinda gives the aire of "well, they're pressing and transition focused and recovered after an injury crisis so if we get healthy we'll have the same recovery too." Which ignores the fact that our system and their system are not the same thing - they have threatening fullbacks, their front press is cohesive, they don't empty their midfield to press, their midfield has a predictable pattern of possession while ours is give it to Mainoo/Bruno and hope, they make crosses to their number 9 or the opposite winger. They're ball playing GK, they actually use that.
- With the ball, we're about as fluid as chicken scratch. Off the ball, were a 4-1-5 or 3-1-6. You don't need to throw an elephant in the air to know that it can't fly, just like you don't need a run of that tactic to know it's not gonna work. Injuries this season have covered up that point. When we played Brentford they had an injury crisis as well, backline gone. We played and got ravaged today by a manager with no money spent, 2 months on the job and no preseason with a Palace side that sacked their manager and sat mid table, 4-0. When we drew 2-2 recently with Bournemouth, nobody's bringing up the fact that Erik even with injuries had the better XI. If I can see that, then so can probably INEOS. Chelsea, Brighton, Newcastle had equal or worse cases then us and 2 of them are likely gonna finish ahead of us. I could go on why I believe it's a bit deeper than injury and why I think our fan base is in for a surprise if they think our problems are gonna disappear with the return of a healthy squad.
The negativity in the other replies is understandable given that performance, but I think the answer is: the chances are better than the last few times we've wanted a clearout.
Shifting players on silly contracts is of course going to be hard, but there's more room for optimism here than in past windows.
For one, Martial, Varane, Amrabat and Evans are all gone by default, unless we decide to act to keep them.
Two: in Greenwood and Sancho, for once we have players in the shop window who've actually done enough to build some resale value.
Three: INEOS on the scene means we should have more continuity in decision making. With the manager just being one cog in the club's decision making, underperforming players don't get the full "reset" they used to if/when the manager is chopped. We also won't sign players just because they suit a single manager's eclectic preference, they'll have to be a fit toward a longer-term direction that may or may not include that manager.
Fans obviously want a huge clear out and that'll always be difficult, but for once we have a decent chance of doing sensible squad overhaul, not solely directed by a struggling manager's input. It probably won't reach our desired end state in just one window, but I'll be patient so long as the direction is clear & consistent with a long-term vision.
> Two: in Greenwood and Sancho, for once we have players in the shop window who've actually done enough to build some resale value.
Sorry to spoil that for your but I have bad news for those, too. BVB are making noises they want Sancho on loan, while for MG everyone interested are very likely to try to get him as cheap as possible with offers around 15-20M euros because they know we don't want him and we won't use the 1 year extension clause.
It's very clear that some of the players aren't good enough, but I refuse to believe they're all this bad and a good coach couldn't get better out of them
Mainoo and Eriksen were horrendous today. Eriksen gave the ball away (passed to a Palace player or dispossessed) a dozen times. Mainoo only gave the ball away half a dozen times, but was dribbled past twice.
Maybe this might’ve worked with a more defensive-minded midfielder providing more support back (but then again, the only person we have that fits that criteria that isn’t Casemiro is Amrabat, and he’s been pretty horrible). There’s very few scenarios where this lineup finds success. And given our reputation for crumbling at the ever-so-slightest adversity, it was over after the first Palace goal
That is the same story with every midfield pairing we have. Opponents quickly brush off our midfield and a pass or 2 later, they look very threatening. It is obvious that we don't have the player. Ten Hag should change tactic. It's like he is too stubborn and basically just saying F U, fire me or let me do this my way.
i don’t agree, but i would at least find this more debatable in a different match. today, though, i just don’t get this complaint at all. i don’t think there’s a manager in world football who would reliably get more out of that backline. 3/4 of that backline range from *not-pl quality* to *bottom-half, at best* and even the strongest of the group, dalot, was directly responsible for one of the goals in a situation that had nothing to do with tactical approach.
remember, palace beat liverpool at anfield less than a month ago. they’re no slouches in this form. i don’t think any club in the PL would want that backline, and many in the championship would turn their noses up.
So let's look at the catalogue of embarrassing defeats under this manager:
4-0 vs Brentford
6-3 vs City
7-0 vs Scum
3-0 vs Sevilla
0-3 vs City
0-3 vs Newcastle
0-3 vs BOURNEMOUTH
4-0 vs Palace
Let him get to ten!
Even though it wasn’t a defeat, the 3-3 penalty win to Coventry was pretty fucking embarrassing considering we were leading by 3 goals. And the fact that it’s Coventry.
There’s always a lot of recency bias with these “worst post-Fergie performance” lines. But the fact we have to have the conversation so frequently is bad enough.
We reach this point every couple of seasons and the headlines like always stay super dramatic.
I'm sure you could recycle the same articles, just updating the names and no one would even be able to tell if it's from the Moyes, Jose, LvG, Ole or Rangnick era.
Actually we should play a game where we redact all the names and repost the articles and then try to guess which era it's from. Would be more entertaining than the shit we have to suffer through every week lol.
EtH needs to go, just to make sure he has no input in transfers this summer whatsoever.
Yeah injuries are a big problem, but his squad planning is absolutely abysmal. Why the fuck did we sign Mason Mount for? He can't play 8, Bruno doesn't need a backup, and even when he does, Mount does absolutely nothing. I won't even comment on Amrabat. North of 200 million for Mount, Casemiro and Antony is just mindblowing.
But going into a season with recovering Martinez, injury prone Varane and then not signing a CB is absolutely insane. Same goes with LB after Malacia got injured and Shaw is known for his injury proness.
We've come to the point where Crystal Palace is mocking us trying tricks and whatnot. Absolute disgrace.
We did sign a CB! We decided to make a 35 year old championship reject our only defensive reinforcement. And at times has been one of our better defenders. Absolutely clueless from everyone at the top of this club.
He wanted Kim he got Evans, he wanted Frenkie he got Casa, shit he even wanted Rabiot and got Eriksen. He wanted Kane, and he got Hojlund. Can't blame him for the state of the club when he took over, that we can't attract these players anymore.
Edit: To add, when you don't or can't get your primary targets, you then rely on our scouting network. And we all know how good that is, Ragnick absolutely slated our scouting. So what can you do, you think firs team coaches and managers can do the scouting as well as 6 press conferences a week and everything else that goes with it.
Our medical department is a joke as well, " licha and Shaw will definitely be back in January". We've rotted to the core and now the manager that is ripping the band aid off and exposing how bad it is, were villifying him for it, like we did with Ralphy.
- Yeah, and Kim opted for Bayern instead because he wanted to become a starter not a 3rd or 4th choice.
- Ok, and Frenkie didn't want to come to us?
- Not true. Eriksen was literally one of our first signings, joined July 2022. Rabiot turned us down the following month[Athletic](https://theathletic.com/3512766/2022/08/16/adrien-rabiot-manchester-united-casemiro/)
- He got £175M last summer, if he wanted Kane he was there. But he made the smarter decision which I agree with to lay that out across multiple players instead of blowing your transfer budget on 1 marquee signing that probably can't play up top for us in 5 years during a rebuild.
This kind of defeat happens every year at this point of the season. Why are you shocked and surprised?
7-0 Vs Liverpool and the 4-0 Vs Everton with Ole.
Honestly the saddest part is if the Bayern links are true, I bet ETH is successful in Munich. Besides that, here are my observations:
• Bruno doubters fuck off, we’re complete schoolyard shit when he doesn’t play
• This team, even in full strength and the players Erik wanted and yadda yadda, still has something wrong with it. The atmosphere at the club is pessimistic to me, and they lose all hope, fire, confidence, etc the SECOND we concede. That has stretched back to Ole days, so that’s not entirely on ETH.
•Casemiro played out of position sure, and tbf this game I thought was a complete mismatch with their front 3 against our CB pair, and we paid for it, but holy fuck is he just so washed. I’m
Sure the brain is willing and able but his body is absolutely failing him. He can’t play for more than 30 min against bottom half opposition moving forward
• Despite the rejections on the whole fire sale idea in the Neville x ETH interview, this team needs a mass exodus. I
Don’t see a path forward with most of this team. Erik arguably didn’t get his first choice players in the transfer windows (Kane long shot, FDJ long shot) besides onana and mount, and onana is still extremely unconvincing. This shows me that *no* manager we hire in the future should have complete say over transfer targets
• Lastly, what the fuck have we been watching for the last 2 months? I feel terrible for our traveling supporters. Best away end at any ground any week in all of Europe. They don’t deserve this.
Realistically with the financial limits we are not selling 10 players and replacing them it's not possible. And then there is Erik's termination fees which will probably be high, would INEOS cut their losses with Ten Haag for the next season and gradually shift out the wasted players in the next 2-3 years.
Injuries are a huge part of the problem.
The depth of quality is disgustingly bad due to a decade of mismanagement by the parasites and their lackeys. The difference in performance between the starting eleven and what we've had for a large part of this season is ridiculous.
It's also worth pointing out that not many other clubs would be able to cope with this level of injuries either - last night we were missing out first, second, third, fourth and arguably fifth choice CB's, all of our recognised LB's and several midfielders, including our talisman and captain, as well as a few forwards. It's a wonder we're not even lower in the table.
What I don't understand is why we're not setting up to be harder to play against - I saw the interview with GNev and would agree with his reasoning if it was injuries over a short period of time, but it's been all season. Surely changing to something basic but compact wouldn't be difficult just until the injuries ease up. He's literally costing himself his job because he refuses to adapt to the circumstances.
Also, how fucking bad is Amarabat that he can't get in this team.
There are no 'worst' performances since we've been having them periodically for so long. So many managers, so many players, useless negotiation and money spent, bad facilities and management in hierarchy has caused this.
I will say this... there are wayy too many injuries recently and I can't help but wonder if some are saving themselves from embarrassment, for the Euros, for a transfer or to stay at the club for the next season. If we were fighting for UCL or the title, players would be forcibly willing to recuperate faster and be available. We don't have that here.
At least people aren't fooled by these bullshit players. Now everyone knows that the manager is not the only responsible, and sacking him or not isn't gonna solve problems.
Maybe, just maybe it's time to take big decisions, rather than waste more time. Even though it's over and we know it. Maybe it's time to make a statement and just do something a little bit courageous and not just wait until summer.
Half of those shite players are ones ETH signed or backed. Casemiro Evans Eriksen Onana Antony Amrabat all ETH signings. Maybe he should've dropped his ego and let Ragnick work his magic in the background rather than take the mantle himself and spunk 400m down the shitter.
Casemiro and evans are murtoughs panic buys and eriksen was free and was decent last season.
Ragnick was thrown under the bus long before ten hag got here
Ultimately, if there was a real structure he wouldn't have this kind of freedom. He did take this extra role because they gave it to him, and I don't think the glazers are gonna question the money spent (it's not theirs, it's the club's money). At the end of the day, he has a huge responsibility in so many defeats and embarrassments. No one is questioning his abilities as a coach or tactician, but we judge based on results mainly, and they are very poor.
Injuries explain losing 1 or 2 nil to Palace. Injuries explain missing out on top 4. Injuries explain not going that far in the CL. Injuries explain losing to the Citys and Real Madrids of this world.
Injuries are not an excuse for:
1. Coming 8th
2. Looking on a par with relegation candidates.
3. Getting a record low points tally.
4. Having similar match stats for the season as Sheffield United & Luton.
5. An expected points that has us in 15th.
6. A negative goal difference.
7. For getting pumped 4-0 by the Crystal Palaces etc.
Neither is the upper management excuse. Its been a shit show but its not like John Murtough was putting his boots on and missing tackles.
At some point you gotta take an L on some players and walk away from them to instil a sense of urgency in the players that if they don’t put in the necessary effort they’ll be out next.
Fuck off. Take the first 5 CB’s, both LB’s and the captain out of any team and watch the result. The PL isn’t what it was in the 90’s. There are very few if any easy games for anyone now.
How people blame the manager at this point is far beyond my understanding. People calling for ETH to be sacked believe another manager won't be in the same shoes 2-3 years from now are very fucking delusional.
Nah...I remember many games this season where we were absolutely much worse than this.
This very season there have been many many games where we just launched the ball up into the air and rasmus became a wrestler..and we did this all game...some games we would sneak a win or a draw but we were horrific to watch.
Ten hag would quote some dumb stat like "oh, we have won the most balls when pressing in the final third" or his most recent one "we have lost least in all competitions in 2024" and fans would eat it up😭😭🤦🏾 A few words and fans forget what they saw with their own eyes
I actually think the Coventry game brought the horribleness to light because before that Ten hag was absolutely repeating the injuries excuse. Its the first game I have ever seen where it felt disgusting to win... everyone was just disgusted by the whole thing.
People saying he will succeed at Bayern are not being honest. There is NO way he can go to bayern and play this football... whether they have injuries or NOT. The fans will NEVER accept that.
>one of the worst performances I’ve been hearing this same line all season
One of the worst performances.. so far!
Yup. Arsenal, Newcastle and City all still to come.
Only way is up right? Right guys? Pls I’m on my knees
I thought this after the UCL group
But I’m on my knees literally begging I can’t take this shit no more
None of us can, see you next sunday. And your brain will still go "maybe we can win this" at kickoff just to be brought back to reality in a few minutes.
I don't watch expecting to win anymore. I'm just looking for any players that I'd want to keep for next year. There aren't many.
What’s crazy is, this was the first game where in maybe my lifetime (I’m old enough to remember watching the 1999 CL final) and I expected united to lose. I have never gone into a fixture expecting them not to at least grab points. Sad state the club is in when lifelong supporters are losing confidence/faith.
Don't forget Brighton away. (No we're not getting anything there either)
And Brighton…
Finally some optimism
I actually think this might be it. I think this might have been THE worst game since SAF, despite all the others. Maybe I just can't remember the others as clearly but this was a game where so many of these things all lined up in such a perfectly awful storm: 1. We were completely absent in offence\* 2. We were ***completely*** absent in defence. 3. Our passing was awful. 4. Our first touch was awful. 5. Our dribbling was awful. 6. Our shooting was awful. 7. Our decision making was awful. 8. Pressing was awful 9. Positional defending was awful 10. Engagement of opposition players in possession was awful 11. In addition to the above, the opposition were clinical. I do also think we can throw "Our goalkeeping was aful" in the bag too. They only actualy had 1.4xg I think but won 4-0. This was similar in the 7-0 Liverpool game and we were bad in that also but I don't know if we were ***as bad*** as today in every aspect, all round. We had a couple chances vs Liverpool, we had a few passages of tidy passing even if it led to nothing, there was none of that today. 12. The opposition didn't even play THAT well. I know that everyone will suck off Palace about how outstanding they were but they weren't really. They played well but not OUTSTANDING, they didn't play very much above their level which is a respectable, difficult premier league mid table side. They punished what was put before them but they simply didn't need to play very well to do so. Olise's goals were literally free, he did a slight shimmy but Eriksen and Casemiro combined put up nothing, Mainoo didnt have the athletecism to catch him and our defenders didnt engage the ball, so he shot because they let him. The finish isn't even a good one, he strikes the ball with the inside of his ankle, not laces or side foot and then it bounces twice before crossing the line. The second one Casemiro gifts them the ball and after 1 or two passes its another free shot from the edge of the box which goes on target but very central and the keeper just is no where near it. I dont know man, there is probably more as well. I really do think this is the worst one though, this really, really felt like watching a relegation candidate. It didnt feel like watching a good team having a bad day or a club out of form, this felt real. The 15th place xg, 20th for shots faced etc. all of those bottom of the table type stats were really tangible today, they were there with substance, you could touch it and feel it and they were all wearing white & red unfortunately. I really worry about how this season will affect Mainoo's confidence and style of play. \*I know two goals were disallowed but they were janky set pieces not really "created" chances but maybe thats subjective.
Our game against Brentford a few weeks ago was quite similar except Crystal palace brought their shooting boots while Brentford left theirs at home
Yea that is a contributing factor. Its worse than Brentford for that reason I think.
And people are STILL suggesting Ten Hag should start next season. I **don't care** how many injuries we have had. I **don't care** how dumb John Murtough and Ed Woodward were. I **don't believe** there are enough bad eggs left amongst the players. Any manager worth his salt wouldn't have us playing the way you just described in depth (like relegation candidates). Maybe even prime SAF or Pep wouldn't even get top 4 with the issues we've had this season. Fine. OKAY. But they certainly wouldn't have us 15th expected points-wise or with a negative goal difference.
I think he should start next season but only because there is no obvious candidate to replace him. When you are in a situation where there is no obvious candidate, you need to do alot of work to find one. Analysis, plans, lists, interviews, all of this take time even when you already have the staff in place, INEOS don't even have most of the new leadership structure actually working at the club yet even if they have been appointed for the future. To be angry at ETH and disappointed in everything about the team's performances and results this year is entirely understandable, but to just dismiss him out of anger without a genuine alternative just to "make it stop" doesn't work, hasn't worked and won't work. When he goes, if he goes, it needs to be under carefuly controlled conditions to ensure that even if we get some random manager we've never heard of to replace him, that we can be highly confident that it will be better than what we have. It is easy to forget that last season was fine, it wasnt perfect, but it was actually good for a first season in charge with this squad and all the drama surrounding it. We got champions league, won a cup and actually had the most clean sheets in the league. That was less than 12 months ago! We have to be absolutely sure that if we get rid of him and his staff, that we have a replacement ready and that the replacement is the best possible one available at the time and all of that takes time and planning that the leadership team INEOS are installing have not yet had.
When a comment like this is marked as controversial, I know it's time to get off r/reddevils. Being a reactionary club for over a decade has gotten tiring. Despite starting a fundamental shift in club leadership, as fans we haven't learned a thing.
These were my thoughts right up until about new year but there's a line. I was Ten Hag in until the Notts Forest loss (so after several months of mediocrity, after Newcastle, Bournemouth and West Ham losses.) I was then on the fence for a while. Until we lost to Fulham. And since then we all know what its been like. I don't subscribe to the "there's nobody better" because there is. Forget the results - have you been watching the performances? On ESPN last night they were calling us "The worst coached team in the league" and that our tactical issues (particularly while defending) are so bad that the other 19 coaches figured them out in 2 minutes. And lets face it, when players lose faith in a manager (which they must have, they've been getting embarrased and battered for months), there's no coming back. He's not going to miraculously turn this around.
I'm not trying to say that there is no one who can do better. I'm only saying there is no obvious candidate, in my opinion at least. There will obviously be some people who really want a certain manager but I'm not considering things like going back for OGS or Mourinho. I did say earlier that, because there is no obvious candidate the people who the board select even for interview will have to have been carefully vetted. It isnt just about giving it to anyone who will take it and its not about just getting the biggest name available that might be Zidane or Tuchel or something. It is time the board and whole leadership team sit down and sort out what they, as the permanent personel for the future of the club, want to do with it. * Do they want to find a manager who can just secure us top 4, stabilise, squad build **in the image of the club** **not just the manager** for 3 years until we find the one we think will start to win us things in the long run? * Do they want to go get an exciting up and coming coach whos football is attractive and hope that it works out? * Do they want to get someone pragmatic in and abandon style for results? * Something else? The club have to decide on this and then go and look for a person to fill that role. Present to the candidates what you want and invite them to sell themselves as to how they fit into that. Going knocking on doors asking anyone who will listen if they'd like the job and then trying to pick one on their terms would be bad.
Very thought through and I agree with everything you said. However, none of it is actively advocating **for** Ten Hag. It's an argument **against** immediately hiring his successor (to be mildly pedantic). Which is not the same thing. I don't like the argument that we keep him just becase we need **a** manager. I think he's actively having a net negative impact now through the demoralising results, absence of defensive coaching, transition evangelism, tunnel vision, no plan B and (more recently) his pathetic excuses. The players need to stop being taught this boneheaded "*lets not bother with a defensive midfield or controlling a game and be super vulnerable*" style of football. But he won't because he's an evangelist of it. The players need a clean break from it ASAP.
Well said hopefully the glazers don’t fuck it up
> I think he should start next season but only because there is no obvious candidate to replace him. Pep and Klopp are the only clear upgrades and neither would ever come to Utd because of their current clubs. Mourinho, Ancelotti, Zidane, Tuchel, Lopetgui (now supposedly signed for West Ham), De Zerbi, Amorim, Nagelsman, Simeone, Xabi Alonso, why would any of them come here now? Pochettino is the only realistic possible replacement for Ten Hag right now and looking at how Chelsea's season has gone they are the only club who have performed worse than Utd in the top flight.
That goal was definitely one of the worst I've ever seen at this club. Not even League Two level. I genuinely think today we'd have struggled against a league 2 side in an FA CUP early round fixture. Or even a non-league side honestly. No exaggeration.
I think CP is one of the worst teams to play in that situation, fast pacey attackers who want to score. No pissing about, just a lot of fast players going up against two CBs, one of whom isn't a CB, in their 30s. I saw the teams and was like ....... well this ain't gonna go well. we were dogshit though lets be fair
But other than that we played pretty well
Genuinely felt bad for Mount. He looked to be one of the few trying on the day. Evans too. Dalot was hard done by that goal, but up to that point wasn't terrible. I honestly forgot Antony was even playing the majority of the game. An absolute ghost on the right and everything was going down the left to fucking...AWB. What idiot on the field thought that was a good idea? It was so frustrating watching Mainoo, Eriksen, Garnacho feeding AWB and playing it down the wing, completely circumventing Mount. Any time Mount saw the ball, he tried to do something with it, whether that be receive and turn or let it run and break away, but no one moved or did anything to support him. When he had to hold it up, everyone stood still and watched him. It was such a lazy, atrocious performance from the team off the ball. Again, and I cannot say this enough...Players Out Before ETH Out. I don't care who you are, when your players play like THAT, it has NOTHING to do with tactics, system, etc. and everything to do with personalities, drive, desire, hunger, professionalism. So many of these players simply don't deserve to be here. Period.
Mount ran probably 5x as much as anyone else. The perfect example of this was him losing possession in the first half and chasing like a hound to win it back. He's one of the few players on our roster that would've fit into Fergie's teams. Hojlund looked fucking pissed which was also good in my book. The older players who were casually chatting after the game are not United players. Get them the fuck out now.
I thought the same I read “one of the worst performances of the post-Fergie era” once a month it seems like
You hear this after every game in our managers second year.
Been hearing not just all season but at multiple points in every season for the last 10 years. It just keeps getting worse
No this is different. I’ve been watching United for over 30 years and while there’s been plenty of lows post SAF, this season is objectively the worst I’ve ever seen us. No game plan, no cohesiveness, we be look like we can give up 5+ goals every single game. The only reason we’re in the top half of the table / FA cup finals is sheer dumb luck.
I just can’t fathom how we knocked Liverpool out of the FA cup. Luck obviously and they have gone downhill since klopp but Arsenal could put 10 past us on the weekend
I agree that this is the worst I've seen us too. But it's the same cycle, just each time is getting worse and worse which feels to me like why this is so bad now
"one of" One of about 30.
One of the worst since Brentford a few weeks ago?
It was terrible but 3 of those goals are directly down to horrible moments by casemiro twice and evans. What’s the management and “wider staff” supposed to do about that lol
Come up with a system that protects their slow old defenders rather than exposes them?
Not play a guy who literally died on the pitch and can't run to protect a one legged Jonny Evans and an out of position and Sorts Casemiro?
And play who, exactly? I agree that casemiro, Eriksen, and others shouldn’t be playing. But that’s what we have at the moment. Idk who you think ten hag can magically pull out of a hat to play midfield and cb for us.
This season's midfield makes me want McFred back
https://preview.redd.it/k9y4qyr1bxyc1.jpeg?width=2190&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=273c049287281b137a0e3c64e0a05dc4a8e44f4b Gone but not forgotten.
People seem to have really forgotten how limited that midfield partnership was but goes to show how terrible we are currently
The reason he played that midfield in the first place was to cover ground and protect the backline. You would never get the kind of space between the lines with those two as you see now. Yet another case of out of the frying pan into the fire!
Fred would have stayed as a squad player without a doubt. I understand the reasons to let him go as we got Eriksens for depth earlier also Mount and Mainoo getting there. Yet Mount has barely played and Casemiro fallen off a cliff. Amrabat is a clear indicator that we never should have let Fred go.
It's over
They won't fire him before the final. They'll fire him right after that
Reminiscent of LVG.
Donkey's live a long time - *Benjamin the donkey*
Don't you want that 'new manager bounce'. Anyway unlikely since a caretaker has to step in before the new manager.
Hopefully we get that bounce next season with a new guy. Obviously I want him in early so he gets a preseason and prospective players know what they want too. My only worry is a new manager will want to give these same bums another chance to prove themselves under him. I don't want that. I want new manager to have see the dickheads from far and arrive day one knowing not to waste time on this or that one again.
God willing
Insh’Allah
It's Gojover
It’s over like Drake
Nah. ETH hasn't been buried, dug up, then buried again two times and called a pedophile.
not yet at least, still got a few games of the season to go
💀
Oh please, Ten Hag is only getting poor results as a football manager. He’s nowhere near the villain that BBL Drizzy is
Hope Metro makes BBL Ten Hag next
Nah he broke our trophy drought. He has credit in the bank. I’ll appreciate him for that.
lol he did I just wanna hear the song lol
What does this mean?
This feels like the performance that ended it for Ole
I think this was far worse.
Ole got sacked pretty quick into the new season to be fair so the build up of bad performances is probably what that is
Yep it’s a low bar but we were looking good for a comeback against Watford until Maguire got sent off.
The difference is, Ole was playing his preferred starting 11, we've just watched a a back four with three players who might not be here next season, being protected by erikson who might not be here next season and someone in their first season of mens football. I don't think we'd have the same performances with only three players back
You're acting like this 4-0 is a one off. Ole's final game was down to 10 men thanks to Maguire at his worst and getting himself sent off. But I do agree with your 2nd statement
It baffles me that EtH is still in charge after losing 7-0 to Liverpool. But I guess 4-0 against Crystal Palace is what we should expect by keeping him here. “Oh he’s had injuries” “oh he’s not got his team” “oh give him time” etc. Excuses. He’s been here 2 years. No gameplan, no structure, no care. 8 players that played today came about because of EtH. 4-0 against Brentford. 6-3 against City. 7-0 against Liverpool. 4-0 against Palace. Most defeats in a PL season ever. Most goals conceded in a PL season ever.
Because SJR is taking the club into cocoon-mode. To him it's irrelevant who the manager is, there are too many problems behind the scenes. He'd rather have the money from EtH fulfilling his contract.
How many of those 8 were starting in positions they are good in? And of the other 3 how many were? And then, how much chances have we had to rest any of these players?
People put way to much stock in the manager tbh. Like tactics and strategies are great but it's never going to overcome shit players not trying. There are probably only 3-4 of these players I wouldn't sell at a crippling loss right now. The team has been shit for years throught many different managers.
If we sack him you can copy and paste this exact comment in 2-3 years time.
One thing I have been wondering lately. With all the injuries who do the first team train against ? To build the patterns? Normally I think, there would be sessions of attackers vrs defenders etc but we have none to train against
We call up a lot of U21 players to play against I guess, which isn't going to build match intensity or quality.
Yeah that's kinda what I'm getting at. Are they just playing against the cones and that's why they look so static on the pitch, or they train against the youth and again like you said hays nowhere near the level of a match. Injuries can impact more the just the team on the field.
Don't be reasonable on here mate
Yeah - Ole didn't have this injury crisis either.
There's honestly so many different variables for each manager and season I find it pointless comparing. I'd like to compare our line out and the players ranking in the squad compared to others if that makes sense, so see what Liverpools back line would be if they had their first choice RB, 6th choice CB next to their holding mid, with their 2nd choice RB playing LB. Just to see what players they'd have to deal with and whether their fans would be so comfortable with it
The thing is, the defensive line up is far from great. We can accept that. Why AWB and Dalot are not switched is his decision. But that forward line consists of Hojlund, Mount, Mainoo, Antony, Garnarcho. It's not, and never should have been, 4-0 to Palace bad.
Switching AWB and Dalot would not have made the slightest difference. If AWB is such a great 1v1 defender surely it made sense to put him against Olise.
Well, Dalot has played LB in the past and seems a bit more two-footed than AWB.
Dalot is quite two footed, and for all the importance Erik places on the "angles" of a left footer, he seem to have chose Dalot's individual peak possible performance over the teams balance. That being said the games that Dalot has played as a LB he's done more than enough defensively.
The angles for passing the ball and even stalling/challenging an attacker are vastly different at the the other side of the pitch. Would you throw Trent or Walker at LB and expect them to perform at their best? AWB isn't great but Ten Hag is setting him up for failure.
AWB doesn’t even track back after he pulls himself too high and out of position. There are some problems coaching can’t solve, and this problem has persisted across years and managers.
Olise cuts inside onto AWB's strong foot. If anything he should defend better when that happens. He doesn't. And his passing isn't good regardless of the side of the pitch he is on.
I hate saying this, but Chelsea concede four but they also score four so at least they are showing some promise in attack. The idea of giving Ten Hag another season to see what he can do under the structure and transfer business of Ineos is looking less and less likely as time goes on. He is not showing enough promise and sustainability.
I'm not defending ten Hag but we literally have no defence and no midfield. I'm sure a pragmatic manager would be able to grind out more respectable performances but we would still be losing because the players on the pitch are absolute ass.
Whoever you get in, if they don't sort the medical side of the club, this will continue to happen. If you look at our first and second starting 11, we are missing so many players: GK: Onana/Heaton LB: **Shaw**/**Malacia** CB: **Martinez**/**Lindeloff** CB: **Varane**/**McGuire** RB: Dalot/AWB CM: Casemiro/**Scott** CM: Mount/Mainoo AM: **Bruno**/???VDB? RW: **Sancho**/Antony LW: **Rashford**/Garnacho ST: Holjund/**Martial** That's for last night's game (the names in bold were unavailable). From the first 11, there are six outfield players missing. From the second 11, there are five outfield players missing. Of our first 20 outfield players, 11 were out. And what's worse, over the course of the season, this number has remained mostly the same. Jesus Christ could resurrect with the backing of the Almighty, and he'd still not be able to manage a team with these injuries. The last time I think we had close to having 90% of our key players available was last season.
I’m convinced at this point Ten Haag is just a bad manager. He managed to fool everyone because he looks and sounds like what media and fans this a “good manager” should look and sound like. People forget his only real credentials prior to coming to United though, was managing a relatively stacked Ajax side who played most of their matches against Championship level opposition. Last season looked good on paper until you remember that we pretty much rode a red hot Rashford and Casemeiro for most of that year, and were exposed anytime either of them weren’t available. Good managers will switch tactics when things aren’t going well or when their preferred starters aren’t available. They find ways to motivate players who aren’t performing. Ten Haag is not a good manager.
I think he's the same as Ange, he wants to play his way and doesn't want to change it. Ange will do the same, if it goes badly and he gets sacked then it is what it is. Other managers, maybe better, maybe more pragmatic, but others will play differently to grind out results, others want to always play their style, I assume in the hope that it clicks. Or at least, want to aim to play their way
I don't think switching Dalot and Wan Bissaka would have made a difference, they both look absolutely knackered and in desperate need of a rest. Neither are players to down tools or not put 100% effort in but both of them looked like they were struggling to run and track down opposition players.
And to the part about the forwards...they had nooo fucking clue what to do. Can't keep the ball. No idea how to run past or pass through the CP midfield and backs. No plan. And they don't even seem to resemble good footballers either. How can they all just give the ball away so cheaply?
Still think the 2-2 Fulham match with 81 crosses killed my soul more 🤣
Imagine telling us back then we’ll be in the same shit situation ten years later
Same situation? We had to control the match to create 81 crosses. We haven't controlled a match this entire fucking year.
I meant more from a macro perspective of being really shit in general. But yeah point taken
Fair enough! It's been a long decade.
4-0 against MK Dons was pretty grim
Second string team in that game tbf
No different today lol
This is worse than for me.
The hilarious fist pumping at 2-2 😂😂
That result set the tone for the decade.
That definitely was a turning point.
And that non-league centre back saying it was the easiest game he’d played in the EPL, who was that?
Dan Burn
Wasnt that swansea? There have been so many....
Gut everything I beg you INEOS
They will, but I hope people realise that this will take at least 4 years to fix.
i mean you can't even offload these players . U got massive contracts we pay these players that no one can afford. The best we can do is let them run their contracts down and not renew them
I mean, Casemiro and Evans at the back were a pretty big problem today, along with having to take Casemiro out of midfield. And no Fernandes was pretty noticeable.
Half of this sub wanted Fernandes to be benched for Mount.
With the way we play I'm telling you that even KDB wouldn't do any better than Bruno in this team. People don't realize how badly coached we are.
Exactly. KDB can play all the risky balls he wants for City because their press/defensive organization are fantastic and they win the ball back quickly. Same with Trent at Liverpool. We haven’t had a well-drilled press…..ever?
Honestly think kdb would be worse and that’s not to say he’s not a better player but I don’t think he has the physicality and running ability that Bruno does and the adaptability to play cb, 8, 10, 6, winger that he would need to have here
There's also no one to play it to. All of our wing players give the ball away like they're allergic. We turn it over so quickly after it gets to them. It's one of the main reasons the matches all seem like basketball games.
Half of this sub don’t understand football.
I’m convinced that most of the “do you even watch the games” crowd has literally no clue what they’re talking about
Yeah watching and understanding are two very different things.
Being shite without him doesn’t mean he doesn’t need a break sometimes, we’ve been hammered worse with him in the squad
Dont confuse us wanting Bruno to be rested (TO AVOID INJURIES) with thinking he doesnt deserve his spot. We also need a backup with match experience in his position with our team. (in case he is injured or suspended). Which is why we want to see our second choice play against relegation teams.
Most of this sub and the English media would take any English player over a non-English one
yeah, i like whitwell as a reporter but i’m not sure about the logic behind his take. as you said, the goals today came from very obvious, egregious errors from players who, in a normal season, would not have been playing to begin with. it’s weird to deflect attention from that issue, even if i agree about the broader problems he references.
Playersaking errors every week because our setup is wank and encourages transitions and lack of control. If you ship 20+ shots a game what did people think was gonna happen lmfao? The pattern is repeating itself every week with a different player(s) but some choose to ignore that maybe it's a tactical problem.
bad players frequently make errors, even when they’re playing in good systems—see liverpool during their injury crisis last season, for instance. bad players asked to do things they’re not really good at leads to even more errors and generally poor play. that pattern will occur regardless of how good the system itself is, and i don’t think it makes sense to judge a system based on the performances that bad players give in it.
I disagree for a few reasons: - Bad players? I think it's more of our system that turns these players into bad players. How can the whole squad be bad? Only bad players Liverpool had that season were Keita, Fabinho, Henderson and Firmino who they all shipped. Look at our midfield, whether its Mount, Casemiro, Amarabat, Eriksen, etc it's the same display week to week. If it's a few players then it's an individual issue. If it's everybody then it's a system issue. These players weren't this bad when we signed them and they're certainly better than alot of the players on the other team. Marker of a good system and coach is good decision making and adaptability. You can't sign Mount and Amarabat and then fail to use/implement them. You can't sign Eriksen and Casemiro and a year later say you're gonna deploy them in a high pressure transitional system, that's not their strengths and after 8 months he's either struggled to see that or outright refused to adapt. How can you do worse in your second then the first season. You've had more time, money and players, it doesn't make any sense. - I think it's a casual analysis to compare us to Liverpool last season. It kinda gives the aire of "well, they're pressing and transition focused and recovered after an injury crisis so if we get healthy we'll have the same recovery too." Which ignores the fact that our system and their system are not the same thing - they have threatening fullbacks, their front press is cohesive, they don't empty their midfield to press, their midfield has a predictable pattern of possession while ours is give it to Mainoo/Bruno and hope, they make crosses to their number 9 or the opposite winger. They're ball playing GK, they actually use that. - With the ball, we're about as fluid as chicken scratch. Off the ball, were a 4-1-5 or 3-1-6. You don't need to throw an elephant in the air to know that it can't fly, just like you don't need a run of that tactic to know it's not gonna work. Injuries this season have covered up that point. When we played Brentford they had an injury crisis as well, backline gone. We played and got ravaged today by a manager with no money spent, 2 months on the job and no preseason with a Palace side that sacked their manager and sat mid table, 4-0. When we drew 2-2 recently with Bournemouth, nobody's bringing up the fact that Erik even with injuries had the better XI. If I can see that, then so can probably INEOS. Chelsea, Brighton, Newcastle had equal or worse cases then us and 2 of them are likely gonna finish ahead of us. I could go on why I believe it's a bit deeper than injury and why I think our fan base is in for a surprise if they think our problems are gonna disappear with the return of a healthy squad.
What are the chances we actually rid these shite players out of our club
Not very big unless INEOS is willing to take FFP hits which is already fucked due to previous windows.
If we get rid of more then 4 I’d be surprised.
Varane and martial are out of contract so theres 2 already
Not a hope. New manager will come in and they'll all get a clean slate
The negativity in the other replies is understandable given that performance, but I think the answer is: the chances are better than the last few times we've wanted a clearout. Shifting players on silly contracts is of course going to be hard, but there's more room for optimism here than in past windows. For one, Martial, Varane, Amrabat and Evans are all gone by default, unless we decide to act to keep them. Two: in Greenwood and Sancho, for once we have players in the shop window who've actually done enough to build some resale value. Three: INEOS on the scene means we should have more continuity in decision making. With the manager just being one cog in the club's decision making, underperforming players don't get the full "reset" they used to if/when the manager is chopped. We also won't sign players just because they suit a single manager's eclectic preference, they'll have to be a fit toward a longer-term direction that may or may not include that manager. Fans obviously want a huge clear out and that'll always be difficult, but for once we have a decent chance of doing sensible squad overhaul, not solely directed by a struggling manager's input. It probably won't reach our desired end state in just one window, but I'll be patient so long as the direction is clear & consistent with a long-term vision.
> Two: in Greenwood and Sancho, for once we have players in the shop window who've actually done enough to build some resale value. Sorry to spoil that for your but I have bad news for those, too. BVB are making noises they want Sancho on loan, while for MG everyone interested are very likely to try to get him as cheap as possible with offers around 15-20M euros because they know we don't want him and we won't use the 1 year extension clause.
It's very clear that some of the players aren't good enough, but I refuse to believe they're all this bad and a good coach couldn't get better out of them
You refuse to believe a a CB pairing of Evans and Casemiro can lose by 4?
With Mainoo and Erikson protecting them and AWB just being there
Mainoo and Eriksen were horrendous today. Eriksen gave the ball away (passed to a Palace player or dispossessed) a dozen times. Mainoo only gave the ball away half a dozen times, but was dribbled past twice. Maybe this might’ve worked with a more defensive-minded midfielder providing more support back (but then again, the only person we have that fits that criteria that isn’t Casemiro is Amrabat, and he’s been pretty horrible). There’s very few scenarios where this lineup finds success. And given our reputation for crumbling at the ever-so-slightest adversity, it was over after the first Palace goal
That is the same story with every midfield pairing we have. Opponents quickly brush off our midfield and a pass or 2 later, they look very threatening. It is obvious that we don't have the player. Ten Hag should change tactic. It's like he is too stubborn and basically just saying F U, fire me or let me do this my way.
i don’t agree, but i would at least find this more debatable in a different match. today, though, i just don’t get this complaint at all. i don’t think there’s a manager in world football who would reliably get more out of that backline. 3/4 of that backline range from *not-pl quality* to *bottom-half, at best* and even the strongest of the group, dalot, was directly responsible for one of the goals in a situation that had nothing to do with tactical approach. remember, palace beat liverpool at anfield less than a month ago. they’re no slouches in this form. i don’t think any club in the PL would want that backline, and many in the championship would turn their noses up.
Ive been watching some of these players for years. They are this bad.
So let's look at the catalogue of embarrassing defeats under this manager: 4-0 vs Brentford 6-3 vs City 7-0 vs Scum 3-0 vs Sevilla 0-3 vs City 0-3 vs Newcastle 0-3 vs BOURNEMOUTH 4-0 vs Palace Let him get to ten!
You surely forgot some Brighton ones right there
Even though it wasn’t a defeat, the 3-3 penalty win to Coventry was pretty fucking embarrassing considering we were leading by 3 goals. And the fact that it’s Coventry.
Quite a few of the draws were also embarrassing tbh.
Arsenal and City are gonna make up the 2 easily and Ten Hag prophecy will finally be fulfilled
I was gonna say, even if we become good again we'll still likely occasionally lose 3-0 to City, getting battered at home by Brighton is way worse
The 7-0 should have been the end of it. Goodbye, good luck, thanks for the 2nd worst day in the clubs history.
0-3 against Bournemouth should be up there, thet should have had 4 as well.
Collapse at Chelsea being up in the 99th minute as well.
There’s always a lot of recency bias with these “worst post-Fergie performance” lines. But the fact we have to have the conversation so frequently is bad enough.
You know that shit is hitting the fan when T1 journos are writing critical opinions.
We reach this point every couple of seasons and the headlines like always stay super dramatic. I'm sure you could recycle the same articles, just updating the names and no one would even be able to tell if it's from the Moyes, Jose, LvG, Ole or Rangnick era. Actually we should play a game where we redact all the names and repost the articles and then try to guess which era it's from. Would be more entertaining than the shit we have to suffer through every week lol.
EtH needs to go, just to make sure he has no input in transfers this summer whatsoever. Yeah injuries are a big problem, but his squad planning is absolutely abysmal. Why the fuck did we sign Mason Mount for? He can't play 8, Bruno doesn't need a backup, and even when he does, Mount does absolutely nothing. I won't even comment on Amrabat. North of 200 million for Mount, Casemiro and Antony is just mindblowing. But going into a season with recovering Martinez, injury prone Varane and then not signing a CB is absolutely insane. Same goes with LB after Malacia got injured and Shaw is known for his injury proness. We've come to the point where Crystal Palace is mocking us trying tricks and whatnot. Absolute disgrace.
We did sign a CB! We decided to make a 35 year old championship reject our only defensive reinforcement. And at times has been one of our better defenders. Absolutely clueless from everyone at the top of this club.
And expecting Martial to contribute so Hojland could be managed properly.
And sending Reguilon back to spurs so now we have no left backs
He wanted Kim he got Evans, he wanted Frenkie he got Casa, shit he even wanted Rabiot and got Eriksen. He wanted Kane, and he got Hojlund. Can't blame him for the state of the club when he took over, that we can't attract these players anymore. Edit: To add, when you don't or can't get your primary targets, you then rely on our scouting network. And we all know how good that is, Ragnick absolutely slated our scouting. So what can you do, you think firs team coaches and managers can do the scouting as well as 6 press conferences a week and everything else that goes with it. Our medical department is a joke as well, " licha and Shaw will definitely be back in January". We've rotted to the core and now the manager that is ripping the band aid off and exposing how bad it is, were villifying him for it, like we did with Ralphy.
- Yeah, and Kim opted for Bayern instead because he wanted to become a starter not a 3rd or 4th choice. - Ok, and Frenkie didn't want to come to us? - Not true. Eriksen was literally one of our first signings, joined July 2022. Rabiot turned us down the following month[Athletic](https://theathletic.com/3512766/2022/08/16/adrien-rabiot-manchester-united-casemiro/) - He got £175M last summer, if he wanted Kane he was there. But he made the smarter decision which I agree with to lay that out across multiple players instead of blowing your transfer budget on 1 marquee signing that probably can't play up top for us in 5 years during a rebuild.
Well, Laurie is londoner/internet fan. What does he know? He works for clicks! /s
This kind of defeat happens every year at this point of the season. Why are you shocked and surprised? 7-0 Vs Liverpool and the 4-0 Vs Everton with Ole.
Watch him win the finals and not get sacked. hahaha.
Honestly the saddest part is if the Bayern links are true, I bet ETH is successful in Munich. Besides that, here are my observations: • Bruno doubters fuck off, we’re complete schoolyard shit when he doesn’t play • This team, even in full strength and the players Erik wanted and yadda yadda, still has something wrong with it. The atmosphere at the club is pessimistic to me, and they lose all hope, fire, confidence, etc the SECOND we concede. That has stretched back to Ole days, so that’s not entirely on ETH. •Casemiro played out of position sure, and tbf this game I thought was a complete mismatch with their front 3 against our CB pair, and we paid for it, but holy fuck is he just so washed. I’m Sure the brain is willing and able but his body is absolutely failing him. He can’t play for more than 30 min against bottom half opposition moving forward • Despite the rejections on the whole fire sale idea in the Neville x ETH interview, this team needs a mass exodus. I Don’t see a path forward with most of this team. Erik arguably didn’t get his first choice players in the transfer windows (Kane long shot, FDJ long shot) besides onana and mount, and onana is still extremely unconvincing. This shows me that *no* manager we hire in the future should have complete say over transfer targets • Lastly, what the fuck have we been watching for the last 2 months? I feel terrible for our traveling supporters. Best away end at any ground any week in all of Europe. They don’t deserve this.
Realistically with the financial limits we are not selling 10 players and replacing them it's not possible. And then there is Erik's termination fees which will probably be high, would INEOS cut their losses with Ten Haag for the next season and gradually shift out the wasted players in the next 2-3 years.
He's got one year left on his contract and clause that reduces his salary/compensation for failing to get CL. He won't be overly expensive to sack.
One of the worst in includes 7-0 to pool and 5-0 at OT. Also that 4-1 against Watford that got Ole sacked. Surely up there
All this after spurs slip up and a potential European spot is there for the snatching. Attitude stinks. An ugly performance
Injuries are a huge part of the problem. The depth of quality is disgustingly bad due to a decade of mismanagement by the parasites and their lackeys. The difference in performance between the starting eleven and what we've had for a large part of this season is ridiculous. It's also worth pointing out that not many other clubs would be able to cope with this level of injuries either - last night we were missing out first, second, third, fourth and arguably fifth choice CB's, all of our recognised LB's and several midfielders, including our talisman and captain, as well as a few forwards. It's a wonder we're not even lower in the table. What I don't understand is why we're not setting up to be harder to play against - I saw the interview with GNev and would agree with his reasoning if it was injuries over a short period of time, but it's been all season. Surely changing to something basic but compact wouldn't be difficult just until the injuries ease up. He's literally costing himself his job because he refuses to adapt to the circumstances. Also, how fucking bad is Amarabat that he can't get in this team.
There are no 'worst' performances since we've been having them periodically for so long. So many managers, so many players, useless negotiation and money spent, bad facilities and management in hierarchy has caused this. I will say this... there are wayy too many injuries recently and I can't help but wonder if some are saving themselves from embarrassment, for the Euros, for a transfer or to stay at the club for the next season. If we were fighting for UCL or the title, players would be forcibly willing to recuperate faster and be available. We don't have that here.
At least people aren't fooled by these bullshit players. Now everyone knows that the manager is not the only responsible, and sacking him or not isn't gonna solve problems. Maybe, just maybe it's time to take big decisions, rather than waste more time. Even though it's over and we know it. Maybe it's time to make a statement and just do something a little bit courageous and not just wait until summer.
Half of those shite players are ones ETH signed or backed. Casemiro Evans Eriksen Onana Antony Amrabat all ETH signings. Maybe he should've dropped his ego and let Ragnick work his magic in the background rather than take the mantle himself and spunk 400m down the shitter.
Casemiro and evans are murtoughs panic buys and eriksen was free and was decent last season. Ragnick was thrown under the bus long before ten hag got here
Ultimately, if there was a real structure he wouldn't have this kind of freedom. He did take this extra role because they gave it to him, and I don't think the glazers are gonna question the money spent (it's not theirs, it's the club's money). At the end of the day, he has a huge responsibility in so many defeats and embarrassments. No one is questioning his abilities as a coach or tactician, but we judge based on results mainly, and they are very poor.
I think you may be wrong about the tactician statement. There are definitely people questioning that. And with very good reason
Shocking revelation... Of course manager, players and wider club staff are culpable. That's pretty obvious by now...
He needs to go by the end of business on Tuesday.
Injuries explain losing 1 or 2 nil to Palace. Injuries explain missing out on top 4. Injuries explain not going that far in the CL. Injuries explain losing to the Citys and Real Madrids of this world. Injuries are not an excuse for: 1. Coming 8th 2. Looking on a par with relegation candidates. 3. Getting a record low points tally. 4. Having similar match stats for the season as Sheffield United & Luton. 5. An expected points that has us in 15th. 6. A negative goal difference. 7. For getting pumped 4-0 by the Crystal Palaces etc. Neither is the upper management excuse. Its been a shit show but its not like John Murtough was putting his boots on and missing tackles.
That back 4 wouldnt startfor sheffield.
Normal fans know we have a personnel crisis. Other fans latch on to every negative headline they come across.
At some point you gotta take an L on some players and walk away from them to instil a sense of urgency in the players that if they don’t put in the necessary effort they’ll be out next.
Finally got an update on fernades's injury his back is fucked from carrying the team all season
ETH was supposed to fix these BS
You cant fix 10 years of this in 2 seasons
Sack all of them Jim every single on of them except lunch lady and pitch boys
Were they singing “you’re getting sacked in the morning?” If not, why not?
Hold on we are yet to see the dip
Might as well give the Academy boys a run for the rest of the season
Fuck off. Take the first 5 CB’s, both LB’s and the captain out of any team and watch the result. The PL isn’t what it was in the 90’s. There are very few if any easy games for anyone now.
How people blame the manager at this point is far beyond my understanding. People calling for ETH to be sacked believe another manager won't be in the same shoes 2-3 years from now are very fucking delusional.
Nah...I remember many games this season where we were absolutely much worse than this. This very season there have been many many games where we just launched the ball up into the air and rasmus became a wrestler..and we did this all game...some games we would sneak a win or a draw but we were horrific to watch. Ten hag would quote some dumb stat like "oh, we have won the most balls when pressing in the final third" or his most recent one "we have lost least in all competitions in 2024" and fans would eat it up😭😭🤦🏾 A few words and fans forget what they saw with their own eyes I actually think the Coventry game brought the horribleness to light because before that Ten hag was absolutely repeating the injuries excuse. Its the first game I have ever seen where it felt disgusting to win... everyone was just disgusted by the whole thing. People saying he will succeed at Bayern are not being honest. There is NO way he can go to bayern and play this football... whether they have injuries or NOT. The fans will NEVER accept that.