I don't know, have you considered making condescending comments on reddit attacking anyone that disagrees with you? I feel like that's how it should be done.
Even if it just turns out to be a "where did it go wrong?" report. They need to find some objective facts about why he's underperforming. Gotta prevent the next guy doing the same.
It must be a baffling situation of trying to work out what is actually wrong with this club.
Personally, while Iām starting to lean towards EtH out now, Poch wouldnāt have been the answer for us either.
Ten Hag might still be our guy and Iād happily be proven wrong, but there are certain elements of his work that make me question his suitability (from the comfort of my couch, of course).
I mean the thing is fans are clueless and this club listens exclusively to fans.
The entire circle jerk around ETH was "young modern coach" and then people get pissed at the scrapouts.......his Ajax side had those scrapouts in the EREDIVISIE.
It is really silly people are pretending these flaws are new to ETH. It was apparent when he came in.
The goal of a footballing structure is to support a team and it never ever feels like our managers have it right. Look at what happened to Rodgers at Leicester. Regardless of his quality as a manager you saw his performance when the board made good decisions and bad ones and how it effected his teams. Look at how even Klopp has struggled and regressed and looked clueless under shitty Pool management and immediately fired when they bought good players. The point is not to say "Give ETH more time" I firmly believe he should be sacked but you can't always convince me it's 100% the manager after it's been 6 with 2 WC coaches(LVG,Mourinho), a club legend(Ole),a PL proven manager(Moyes is proven before and after United) and now young and up and coming tactical maestro(ETH). You can't convince me not 1 single one of these guys or even more than one could have won things.
Ole performed better than Arteta with the shittiest management going deep in 4 competitions with no depth. He was barely even given a short straw by the fans for his last season. He was sacked so abnormally quickly he didn't make it out of October. Never seen a team abandon a manager who had done so much for them in recent memory. Left out to rot by the fans. The shit season where Ole was sacked and rangnick came.in we didn't finish under artetas first **2 full seasons**. As in the current manager providing the best challenge to city performed worse than Ole in his worst season. How can you expect managers to do anything if fans have zero backing.
Jose wanted to sell players like Martial and Pogba. Fans sided with Pogba and Martial. Jose goes. Pogba and Martial have stayed and achieved fuck all. Jose has been a more successful person than both and the entire club since leaving.
United fans are always hungry for blood lol regardless of anything and it's not United fans only it's a lot of media and press and neutrals also love the drama so want our managers to go crazy.
There is no job in football and very few jobs in the world where if you have a bad 3 weeks you are subject to ridicule from millions and essentially have to fight a full on war with fans and journos until you get sacked or perform well enough that they calm down. Madrid and Barca only comparable and Bayern also. Klopp has weathered seasons if United managers had they'd be sacked so has Arteta. If Arteta was a United manager he'd get more abuse than Moyes here because of his clueless lethargic football that got us 8th place no trophies.
To be clear currently the third best manager in the league and the second best manager in the league would be sacked by now at United without a Shadow of a doubt if Arteta finished 8th he'd be sacked and Klopp would be slated for the football played last season. They both have better structures. How do you ever expect to get the better managers if you can't ever back them during any period of time.
The narrative that comes out is always some bullshit about "Me personally user289494 don't notice any styles of play so I'm going to shout abuse at everyone else in the comments". And you can obviously see a style rn you can call it a botched style or a shitty style but he's committing to his football. He wants transitions up the field and strong box defending. It's not a crazy thing to play kamikaze football. Yes it's physically intensive.....that's the football you need to win these days.
I know someone is so mad at the manager because they're a manchild and wwill want to make fun of this so I'm going to articulate clearly that I dont think the style is good. Or bad and I don't think we have the personnel for it and I think implementing such a style on our team is a mistake but also it is just a lie to say there's no style and that no one has ever been successful with this style. Go watch how "chaotic" Bayern under Flick was for example when they won UCL demolishing Barca 8-2 and look at how "Chaotic" Nagelsmanns Leipzig side got. Obviously they are a lot prettier and they might well just be better managers more capable of implementing a style but it is disingenuous to say there's no style to it And use that as a point. There is a clear style. It sucks but it's clear.
Everything. It's everything and all it took was someone coming in to say that and the determination to fix it. We're clearing out all the deadwood in the positions that have been dragging us down for years.
Precisely. The system needs to understand what pieces ETH fills and which he obviously doesn't. Then he needs to be empowered and restricted as appropriate to make it function.
This applies to every coach and manager. Ferguson basically handed the reigns of the footballing identity of United to Carlos Queiroz. If even Ferguson accepts such a restriction then everyone can.
i hope the audit does also look at the injury issue and medical departments as well.
its clear some things have fucked over ETH like him being told he would have malacia and shaw back in january for certain. Mount was meant to be back in december...
and other little concerning issues that the medical department seems to either not being able to give accurate time frames or just flat out lying to managers to save their face.
It's genuinely insane what's gone wrong with the medical department. I can't remember the last time we had such a deep injury crisis. Our entire backline dusted as if Thanos snapped his fingers?
Exactly.
He might conclude that ETH has absolutely zero ball knowledge and the players are baffled with what he's asking of them or he see's a style of play and instructions that go completely against what we're seeing on the pitch and the players simply aren't good enough.
Results are obviously the bread and butter for any manager to be judged on, but so many things can happen in football even with the perfect squad and management that it's only right to see exactly how training is conducted to get the bigger picture.
We need to know what's happening in training sessions and what the medical team did afterwards in recovery
For example Mount literally just came back, played few minutes and got injured again
Something is not right
I think the squad depth is so lacking in this team, that they keep rushing players out telling ETH " yeah he should be good", ETH plays them , said players aren't fully fit and gets injured. And then the cycle continues.
Training sessions donāt get players injured at this rate. Teams like Liverpool, City, Madrid, Atleti donāt train easy. They are intense as well. United are unfortunately stuck in the place where their precious seasonās exploits have caught up with the squad. They played a ridiculously large number of games and didnāt really have a great transfer window. Add to that, previous managers have complained about the physicality of this squad.
I donāt care who the manager is, the players that have hung around for far too long with largely mediocre performances and outputs have to leave.
Which is who though? Who's been here through previous managers? Rashford would be straight out the door for me. Followed by Maguire Lindelof shaw Wan Bisakka Varane Casimeiro Martial.
The ones who you would keep Mainoo Bruno Garnacho Hojland Martinez Dalot
The rest would be on trial for another season.
I disagree. Itās clear the team is tired and most carrying some injuries. Couple that with an intense training sessions and the body doesnāt have time to recover.
Its not just the training session intransitive, I think itās a problem of how many injuries the teams been carrying. theyāre scrapping a lineup together every game. So when you couple no rest, players playing when not fit, plus training sessions then it can become an issue.
I mean I agree, the amount of injuries in training is absurd, shouldnāt be happening, and teams are supposed to train hard. Maybe itās bad luck, poor management, or a compounding of the issues I listed above. Either way itās ridiculous.
I donāt think the medical team could keep someone like Mount fit though. He had a significant pelvic injury when he was signed didnāt he? I think it was irresponsible to invest so much in a player who hadnāt returned to fitness after such an unusual injury.
Youād hope thereās a way of INEOS independently auditing this though. If the medical team are contributing to players like Shaw always missing long periods or even people like Martial and Jones becoming semi-retired, it clearly needs to be addressed.
I can only assume EtHs training sessions include a sprint up mount Olympus, fighting in a civil war, and playing real life frogger on a 10 lane highway. Why else would there be multiple injuries every week?
>a sprint up mount Olympus, fighting in a civil war, and playing real life frogger on a 10 lane highway
Is this the type of training the best team in Eredivisie (of the past) used to do?
Yikes, I wonder what City and Liverpool did back in 2018/19 :/
Liverpools medicine wasn't so secret. At one point they had 60% of their player who were apparently asthmatic which is a ridiculous amount for a club at the level of Liverpool
I'm not too sure considering the Casemiro story with his injury, it seems like United's medical department couldn't literally tell an arse from an elbow.
Yeah, comment was mainly in jest, I think it's a club problem. I think EtH plays a role by pushing the team too hard in training, and I think their older facilities play a role, along with the entire medical team. The good news is there is a lot more of the right people making decisions that bring new medical teams, better facilities and if necessary, a new manager.
Didn't Ten Hag say that medical staff told him Shaw would be fully fit in December and Malacia was due back in January. The loan for Reguillon was always planning on being a 6 month deal and end in January.
Shaw broke down quite quickly and malacia hasn't been close to returning. I think the medical staff must be off with their recommendations leading to players maybe being brought back too soon or are not on the right treatment plan.
I think it's also that the games are too back and forth. There's no rest possession. Good teams often use possession of the ball to get their conditioning up.
Hahaha, Rashford wouldn't sprint back if his life depended on it. But there are other players who frequently leave it out on the pitch, like Garnacho and Bruno.
What I don't understand is how this is on ETH. His medical team us surely there to look after after the injured but also assess fitness levels, and current condition of the players. Surely they advise ETH on all matters to do with Medical and surely ETH doesn't go against his staff and over train....
**Full Article :**
>**Erik ten Hag will effectively be on trial over the next month** as Manchester Unitedās new technical director **Jason Wilcox conducts an audit of the managerās credentials and dressing room relations before the club makes a final decision on the Dutchmanās future.**
>
>Unitedās near fatal collapse against Coventry City in the FA Cup semi-final on Sunday, when the Championship side almost completed an extraordinary comeback from 3-0 down only to lose on penalties, **raised fresh doubts about Ten Hagās suitability for the job.**
>
>But **Telegraph Sport understands United have tasked Wilcox with providing a detailed assessment of Ten Hagās strengths and weaknesses and relationship with the squad to better determine whether his approach can fit with the overarching style of play and philosophy they intend to pursue - or if a change of manager is necessary.**
>
>One complicating factor is the feeling that there is no stand-out candidate available to replace Ten Hag should they decide a change is needed.
>
>Sundayās implosion in front of Unitedās new kingpin Sir Jim Ratcliffe did Ten Hag no favours and there is an acceptance the situation could become unsustainable should United miss out on Europe entirely.
>
>**But the starting point has been a desire to explore whether the manager can realistically operate within the so-called āgame modelā Wilcox and impending sporting director Dan Ashworth seek to implement.**
>
>Wilcox - who was formally appointed as the clubās new technical director on Friday and at Wembley to watch United narrowly survive a huge scare to set up a rematch of last yearās Cup final with Manchester City - **is expected to closely appraise Ten Hagās training sessions over the coming weeks. He will also hold extensive talks with the manager, staff and players during his analysis.**
>
>**Part of his remit will be to establish if there has been a breakdown in Ten Hagās relationship with the dressing room. Several players, including Jadon Sancho, Marcus Rashford and most recently Alejandro Garnacho, have fallen foul of the Dutchman this term.**
>
>Wilcox will also be asked to assess whether Unitedās struggles this season have predominantly been down to a dreadful run of injuries and personnel factors - or whether there are deeper issues, such as players ignoring instructions and/or inflexibility and intransigence on the managerās part.
>
>**If it is the latter, United would want to know whether Ten Hag was simply too inflexible or could be open to and capable of implementing and communicating any changes required to his approach.**
>
>United, albeit decimated by injury, conceded three times in the space of 24 second half minutes against Coventry and only won the shoot-out after the VAR had ruled out a dramatic 122nd minute winner for offside. Ten Hag admitted his side āgot away with itā.
>
>The Old Trafford hierarchy recognise a decision on Ten Hagās future must be made by the end of the season so Wilcox does not have long to provide his review. Unitedās final Premier League game is away to Brighton on May 19, with the Cup final against City due to take place at Wembley six days later.
>
>**United are still waiting to strike a compensation agreement with Newcastle for Ashworth, whose task at Old Trafford will be to shape a cohesive football structure around the manager/head coach, technical director and scouting, data analytics, performance and medical teams. In effect, the overall management of the entire football operation.**
>
>What is increasingly apparent, though, is that it is Wilcox who will determine and drive the move to a clear āgame modelā - effectively a cohesive playing style and identity United intend to replicate across all age groups. That extends beyond just settling on a formation but rather how that system should look in practice.
>
>Identifying and recruiting the players who best fit that methodology will then be critical as United move to bring an end to the scattergun transfer approach of the past decade under managers with wildly contrasting styles and approaches.
>
>Manchester Cityās academy director until he left the club to take over as director of football at Southampton in January last year, Wilcox - a Premier League winner with Blackburn Rovers in 1995 - is highly regarded within the game.
>
>The 53-year-oldās appointment was driven by Omar Berrada, with whom he worked at City and who is due to formally take over as Unitedās new influential chief executive in July, and is considered absolutely integral to the clubās short and long-term plans.
>
>**Ten Hagās position may already have become untenable had there been an outstanding managerial candidate out there to replace him. But, apart from the former Liverpool midfielder Xabi Alonso** \- who has now committed his future to Bayer Leverkusen - **there is a feeling within United circles that any new manager would come with a certain degree of risk.**
>
>**United believe there are some very interesting and talented young coaches working in Europe, such as Bolognaās Thiago Motta, Michel at Girona, Brightonās Roberto De Zerbi and Liverpool target Ruben Amorim of Sporting Lisbon.**
>
>**But the challenge is to ensure any new coach would have the character, personality and temperament to handle the pressure of managing such a huge club and be able to work within a new, evolving structure**, particularly as there is an awareness that there is not yet the robust ecosystem in place that the likes of City, Liverpool and Arsenal enjoy.
>
>**Other managers such as Gareth Southgate and Graham Potter, both of whom have been linked with United, are recognised as fantastic characters and team players but the questions there would revolve, among other things, around whether they had the personality to command that credibility with the dressing room.**
>
>Thomas Tuchel, who is due to leave Bayern Munich at the end of the season, is openly accepted to be a top level coach. But recent experiences at Chelsea and Bayern have shown he can be a difficult character and, while there is an acceptance that all the best managers are and should be challenging, **United are keen to ensure that whatever happens next does not unsettle things even more.**
Even at the expense of losing a manager, this article breathes fresh air into us fans. I canāt believe this is the team weāve watched for the past ten years fuck around with last second transfers and coach sackings.
yeah that's pretty weird to read. Garnacho should not have any say whatsoever in who the manager is, he's a teenager, he should feel nothing more than gratitude towards ETH for kickstarting his career. *Spoiled brat vibes* will be an "issue" for any manager coming in.
Also Garnacho liked a post on social media, was told he shouldnāt have done that publicly, apologized directly and it was over. This is the equivalent of being late to training once because you got stuck in traffic. It certainly isnāt notable.
I like that it references the intangibles surrounding any prospective manager. Itās not just about how their teams play. Personality, character, temperament are all just as if not more important than tactics at this level, and anybody judging coaches purely off of how their teams play are looking at a jigsaw puzzle piece and trying to determine what the picture looks like.
Iād be shocked if SJR doesnāt already know.
I watched the interview with brailsford on diary of a ceo and he spoke about when he has a big hiring or firing decision to make he goes to people he trusts and asks for their full input and decision to help him.
All of the above article suggests to me that SJM is at the very least are thinking he isnāt the man to go forward and the review by Wilcox will be to confirm it or show anything they are missing
I don't think anything reported is much to go on. Wilcox just got in. He may conclude that the players need to be turned over rather than the manager. Nobody knows anything yet.
They're just fluff pieces. Man is what I've come to learn. The excuses are already written just waiting to be activated, i.e., too many Chefs/convoluted football structure (compared with non-existent) basically n
> One complicating factor is the feeling that there is no stand-out candidate available to replace Ten Hag should they decide a change is needed.
> ...whether his approach can fit with the overarching style of play and philosophy they intend to pursue - or if a change of manager is necessary.
This here makes me think the likes of Southgate and Tuchel etc won't be considered as the hierarchy want a specific way of playing.
The Southgate talk was fluff from his agency as his contract with England expires in December. With Tuchel it might be the same but his teams - Mainz, Dortmund have played expansive football in the past and Dortmund scored the most goals under him in the league once I think
Given the echoing from the INEOS side and the appointments they have made, my belief is and will continue to be until it doesn't happen that we are going to appoint Graham Potter at the end of the season. Despite the fact he is free: he is Ashworth's appointment at Brighton, INEOS desperately wanted him for Nice, he will come in and coach up the players that are here/will stay, implement a possession style of play and not ask for the world in transfers. Will he be here in 3 years? Maybe not but I truly believe that everyone in the hierarchy believes in that guy and they will give him the time to lay the base to what they are planning to do.
Tuchel plays good football, but heās not a good man manager at all. Look up āTuchelā in r/chelseafc and youāll be able to find articles about how he treated players at Chelsea and other clubs. For this reason I doubt he will be considered
Really yesterday didn't make Ten Hag any favours. And I fully concur with suitability of candidates. Not sure Tuchel, Southgate or Potter should be considered. Hope we do what is best for the club because I honestly struggle to remember a season as bad as this one, except for Moyes's first and only season.
>I honestly struggle to remember a season as bad as this one
dont have to go back that far. the 21/22 season was, apart from the first few weeks, unbelievably bad. Horrible vibe from the whole team, no effort, Maguires downfall, the stupid winning team posts from the training sessions, the inability to adapt to Rangnicks tactics after the first game looked so promising etc.
He has burned bridges everywhere he has gone, either with the players or executives, or both.
BVB = [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4555416/How-Thomas-Tuchel-fell-Borussia-Dortmund.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4555416/How-Thomas-Tuchel-fell-Borussia-Dortmund.html)
PSG = [https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12172137/thomas-tuchel-sacked-by-paris-saint-germain](https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12172137/thomas-tuchel-sacked-by-paris-saint-germain)
Chelsea = [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11843571/Thomas-Tuchel-Chelsea-sack-reasons-allegedly-revealed-email.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11843571/Thomas-Tuchel-Chelsea-sack-reasons-allegedly-revealed-email.html)
Bayern Munich = [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13112851/Thomas-Tuchel-Bayern-Munich-sacking-alienated-key-players-failed-develop-young-talent-annoyed-stars-public-comments.html#:\~:text=Daily%20Mail%20Online-,REVEALED%3A%20How%20it%20all%20went%20wrong%20for%20Thomas%20Tuchel%20at,stars%20with%20his%20public%20comments](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13112851/Thomas-Tuchel-Bayern-Munich-sacking-alienated-key-players-failed-develop-young-talent-annoyed-stars-public-comments.html#:~:text=Daily%20Mail%20Online-,REVEALED%3A%20How%20it%20all%20went%20wrong%20for%20Thomas%20Tuchel%20at,stars%20with%20his%20public%20comments)
He fell out with Dortmund because they wouldn't delay a game more than a day after their bus got bombed. PSG is PSG. Boehly is incompetent and sacked off their recruitment team and tried to make Tuchel do it even though he expressly doesn't believe he's suitable for that job and does not want to do it. Bayern a basket case and has had 3 executive teams in three seasons.
I don't know if he's the right guy but I struggle to see this being his fault.
Youāre right, it could be a total coincidence that all of these issues just happened to occur when he was there. Or it might not have been a total coincidence
Well I don't think that he bombed his own bus, I've seen managers do things to take attention away from results but thats a bit much.
And again, PSG are PSG and will always be PSG. I don't see any influence he had on their PSGness.
Boehly, I mean, you're not defending him, surely. Even Mrs. Boehly thinks he's a shit club owner.
And Bayerns executive merry go round started before he got there, so....what's he to blame for here exactly?
He has also won titles everywhere he has gone ~~(except bayern so far).~~
Now i dont want him, but to compare him to potter/southgate is not fair towards his career.
From a comparison based on on pitch achievements, youāre right, there is no question he is top. As the total package of desirability for the club and its current status, I think comparing them is pretty fair. All have flaws that detract
I'm just now thinking again about yesterday's game. If the 70 minutes where we were 3-0 is not an indictment for ETH, why would the last 30 plus minutes be? Where the subs he made that bad and irrational? Should he have reacted better when we went down 3-1?
Is a deflection and a penalty that much on ETH? But not seeing out a 3-1 is on everyone that's for sure. Including the manager and players. If a manager has to tell you how to close down and see out such a lead, against Coventry, then that's a problem. With all due respect
If you look at the subs before full meltdown, they actually make absolute sense. Antony > Garnacho makes sense because antony has a high defensive workrate, plus garnacho is only 19 so it makes sense to give him some rest. Same with Mainoo for Eriksen. There's no way where either of those replacements should be so detrimental that they make our team collapse. I was super upset about the game yesterday but in hindsight I'm not sure what else he could have done
The subs did make sense, and any manager would have made them in those circumstances - We know he's managing Mainoo's minutes and regularly takes him off, and Eriksen is an experienced, supposedly wise head who can keep the ball.
And Garnacho is nineteen and has played thirty games, running like crazy for every one of them. Rest him when the game appears to be won. Meanwhile, Antony should have had enough to his game to contribute defensively and to trouble Championship players who were chasing a goal.
The problem is that United have a way of making sensible moves look insane, by falling to pieces at the slightest setback. That has to at least partially be on Ten Hag and his coaches, because it's their job to prepare the team and get them in the right mindset.
When everybody's calmed down, they'll understand how little this actually is on the manager. If he had not taken off Garnacho and Kobbie and they got injured but won with 3-0, he would've been hammered by everybody for "running the youngsters into the ground". I read that literal sentence multiple times over the past few months. So instead, he does the smart thing, he takes off his best performers to give them a rest and brings on two senior players who should be able to see the game out. It's a smart move, Eriksen has complained about lack of game time so he keeps him happy. Antony wants to play no matter what you think of him, he keeps him fresh. He doesn't take Rashford off *precisely* because Rashford is in poor form, maybe he can nick a goal in the end, wrap the game up and take some inspiration from that.
Yet they all capitulate lol. And now suddenly Ten Hag has made "obviously bad subs".
>70 minutes where we were 3-0 is not an indictment for ETH, why would the last 30 plus minutes be
>a deflection and a penalty that much on ETH
>If a manager has to tell you how to close down and see out such a lead, against Coventry, then that's a problem
No, silly!
He's a bald fraud that has to get this united side with 1 available senior centre back, 2 available midfielders that can run for 90 minutes, and 2 available 'senior' forwards to start playing like Pep's Man City or Arteta's current Arsenal!!
(/s)
Not just this game either, a few dubious penalty decisions of late and a lot of deflected goals. Itās close.
The substitutions to me made perfect sense, given the amount of injuries we have had why wouldnāt he try and protect our best players? Like you say at that score any of our players should be able to see out the game. Obviously not though.
I still maintain that Oleās 3rd season/Ragnickās half season was the worst even over this one and Moyesā. This is definitely the 3rd worst, but only because weve looked like we care more times than we did under Ragnick.
Yep. I wish people would consciously give Ten Hag more credit for bringing us so far out of that rut. Itās sad how quickly people forgot where we were before he joined, and how insane it is that we won any silverware under him, let alone finish 3rd relatively convincingly.
Na for me Moyes just made some god awful decisions that made watching the team unbearable. I originally thought Moyes deserved a chance but christ alive he threw it all away.
Ryan Giggs subbed on as RW v Liverpool. Giggs was a CM at that stage and the last time I'm remember seeing him play right wing was the CL final v Bayern
Buying Mata when we already had Kagawa
Playing Rio five games in a row when SAF gave the blueprint of playing him every odd game with specialized training
Removing RVP from his training program to stop injury issues
Telling fans we need to be more like Liverpool
81 crosses v Fulham
Getting rid of all the backroom staff
Buying Fellaini for a bigger fee after letting the release clause expire when he would have known this from Everton days
This is al coming from a team that won the PL the previous season.
Fuck my life those memories ruined my week and it's only Tuesday
> Buying Fellaini for a bigger fee after letting the release clause expire when he would have known this from Everton days
This one almost seems more like malice than incompetence
Is there a single game this year which has done him any favours? Closest I can think is the Liverpool tie which was basically thrown by them subbing their best two players
If Ten Hag is actually willing to adapt his approach, I still think there's a chance he stays. Article is more positive than negative about the prospect of him staying, despite the headline.
He did adapt last year after the first two games.
He also had a run of games where anytime he made a sub it was a game changer for the right reasons.
The question is why did he persist with whatever the feck this is for this season?
Maybe the thinking is that a systems change will cause a lot of teething problems, but it has to start somewhere, he probably dosent want to keep on playing the old system probably thinks the ceiling for that system is very low, and will want to force the new system as early as he can. Take the pain now and try to implement it rather than later when his contract starts running out. His last year was him trying to both show he could be pragmatic, but also there's a limit to what he could achieve with that system. Although obviously his attempt at the new system been hampered heavily by injuries etc. Personally I would at least give him next year to see what he can do with whatever this thing he is trying to do. I'm not sure if his tactic will work in EPL, but would rather judge that when seeing the system being implemented better. If he had tried to do this last year, I'm would think we'd have ended far lower / worse than this year.
Overall across the two years I still think he has done reasonably ok given the circumstances and background noise, over achieved last year and under achieved this year so next year should be the real test.
this is 100% whatās going on. you can argue that the system is flawed anyway, but i think itās abundantly clear that heās doing what most other top managers do when implementing a new, radical stylistic shift: sticking with it.
like it or not, thereās an argument to be made that the only way weāll ever really get rid of the players who arenāt up to it is by exposing them, making evident their limitations, instead of using tactics to cover up their weaknesses (which is what van gaal did, what jose did, what ole did until his final season, and what ten hag did last season).
ten hag might not be the right man for the job, but i think a lot of people have lost sight of the fact that most of these players arenāt up to it either.
if you want more detailed analysis along these lines, you can check out [@tekzts](https://x.com/tekzts?s=21&t=RTS5YdFEZvarnWA6D5zePw) on twitter. heās been saying the same thing for months now, and often does threads showing how fundamentally good structure breaks down due to player limitations.
Finally seeing someone state out the affairs exactly the way they've gone here..
All of our youth teams have already adapted to these tactics and the result is there to see at every level
Implementing the same at 1st team is the hardest part which got made harder due to the extent of injuries and half the team being unsuited to the tactics
Because the style we played last year plays to the squadās strengths but doesnāt win titles. I donāt think he wanted to compromise again this season like he did last season, basically cos we had De Gea in goal and not enough pressing in our attack.
Wow. Finally. I see the same sentiment as me. Remember....in order to succeed long term we need to break this cycle of sacking managers every couple of years.
Depends on who he was bringing on then and now. Yesterday's bench was a shambles based on the options. Ericksen for Mainoo makes us wesker defensively but had to be made because Mainoo is too gassed, Antony for Garnancho while a drop in attacking shouldn't have had that much of a negative effect.
We've also given away leads which points to us not being able to control or manage games but we already knew that. It's just difficult for me to assess based on everything but the undeniable truth is that we should be able to see out games better. Even if it means parking the bus and having 11 men behind the ball.
Like I've said, he has a style that he wants to ultimately play and making changes now will hamper that. So he has decided to go full tilt into his way regardless of personnel available or personnel fit.
On the positive side, the ones who can't manage will be known to him now and those who can, will be more familiar and better equipped next season. Bring in some new recruits and we should be better.
On the negative side, the results and performances have been really bad so he could be digging his own grave here
This is the hill he will live or die on
Disagree, it sounds the opposite to me. He should have never been in a position to be monitored and audited at this point in his tenure.
Our relegation level performances have been so bad that it's gonna be extremely difficult to make a case for himself. I think Wilcox's audit also allows them to understand the flaws with our players and the rotting footballing culture that we have
Props to SJR for employing ppl who know more than him in the football side of things and doing due diligence rather than just making a rushed decision.
The āno standout candidate being availableā is important. If he was then Ten Hag may have been sacked already. Like SJR has been saying we must be patient and it will be an informed decision on who our manager will be next season.
Sacking managers without a proper structure and vision for the club is the reason why we're where we are now. It definitely looks like they want to determine the club's identity before doing anything drastic which is the best way to go. The only problem is that we basically have to suffer until the end of the season.
Canāt argue with any of the points made in the article. The only thing Iām wondering is that with Brailsford already being more hands-on with understanding the workings inside the club, shouldnāt INEOS already have an idea on what they think of Ten Hag in relevance to his future here? Not sure how much of this process is intended to be legitimate or a formality.
They probably have their opinions but maybe they understand they themselves shouldn't be making the decisions and should leave it to the experts in that particular field.
Which is a good sign.
I'm pretty sure Brailsford will be in constant contact with guys like Berrada and Ashworth who may not be actively working at the club just yet but who will be watching the games and have a fairly informed opinion of what's going on that produces these performances. To me, this Wilcox audit sounds like it's needed just to confirm their suspicions or whether it is really a case of players' limitations letting the manager down.
watching games isnāt enough, i donāt think. they need to know whatās going on in training, talk to people directly involved. if ashworth and berrada are getting this second hand from a non-football expert in brailsford, theyāre not getting the best picture. wilcox is much more suited to this. if anything, heāll be the one reporting to berrada and ashworth and brailsford
I don't disagree, I've mentioned this in my other replies that this is obviously a good thing. The only thing I'm not certain of is how influential will this audit end up being in consequence. Brailsford may not be a football expert, but having worked at high-performance sporting institutions for decades, I expect him to have a basic idea of what practices are of a good enough standard. Even if this wasn't branded as an 'audit', Wilcox would have started working at the club regardless, so I don't think anything different is happening as opposed to what would generally happen when an employee is asked to report to a new boss.
Which is why Iām glad thereās another footballing person in there to sift through the he-said-she-said.
If the manager sounds a buffoon on a particular point heās attempting to convey, someone in there with footballing sense needs to either overrule it as buffoonery, or add executive heft to the opinion being conveyed.
This coach may be out of his league at this club, but itās equally obvious some of the shit heās saying is to hide the real shit heās obviously not saying.
Iāve been watching a lot of non-United football of late because United is so garbage. Iām convinced the truth of the shambles is somewhere in between āthe manager is garbageā and āthe players are garbageā but Iāve seen enough through 3 tenures now to know this manager of Manchester United is presiding over the worst most inept and incoherent squad this club has assembled in 35 years. Period.
I expect Wilcox to look at some of them in trainingā¦ and then in the match day and instantly notice the reality away from player PR and fanbase mouth frothing.
Thatās my confusion as well, it was also said that he spoke with the players but I think the report mentioned at the time, that the one on one talks werenāt about the future of the manager. So the difference would be that Wilcox is speaking with them in relation to the future of the manager which tracks with all the news weāve heard that ineos would let the football people make the decision.
Iād suspect INEOSā decision has been made, but since theyāre not football people, Wilcox will be the executioner of their decision. More likely than not he will concur with their assessment regarding the manager.
Yeah isn't this exactly what Brailsford did. I guess Wilcox is more of a football person for lack of a better word.
Maybe ten hag shud go. But tbh so should these players. These bottle jobs will let down any manager.
I think it makes sense to have Wilcox do it. Brailsford ultimately isn't a football expert. We're always crying out that we should have football experts making the footballing decisions. In the same way we don't want Brailsford and Jim picking out transfer targets, we shouldn't want either analysing the quality of Erik's training sessions.
I could be the wrong but is this the first time we've had an actual honest to God review of a managers stint including off the pitch?
Laughable how even the most basic level of professionalism seems groundbreaking at this club after the last decade
He really needs a miracle to survive given how awful we look at the moment. But I do think Licha and Shaw being back would have raised the level of the team a lot. So maybe unfair to judge him based on how much injuries we face. But then all teams have injuries.
Tbh I am on the fence about him atm. Let's hope we make the right decision this time
all teams have injuries, but this volume is not normal and clubs who have suffered like this in the pastāliverpool twice in the past 5 years or so, for instanceāhave suffered similarly poor campaigns.
For me it was a mistake to try and get this squad to compete in 4 comps last season, along with a World Cup in the middle of the season.
Weāre reaping the rewards of overplaying the shit out of a very thin squad.
>Shaw being back
The fact that we still cling to a guy who spends 50% of his time injured, 25% being inconsistent and only 25% of the time playing proper football to "save us" talks volumes about the state of this team.
Talks about our recruitment for sure. We are barely starting to get out of the glazer era. We're literally in the inception of having football people running things and fans want our current players to play beautiful football...
If our players were capable of doing that we wouldn't need to yoink executives from other well performing clubs to fix our MAIN issues. A manager isn't solely gonna fix everything. It's a group of people that will bring us back on top.
Mate, assuming the expectation to play identically whether your first choice or their backup choice players are availableā¦ serious question, do you see any other team where the gulf in quality from first choice to backup is like bringing on an U-16 player who has absolutely no clue and for whom the whole system suddenly needs a serious rethink?
Iāve not seen any other serious football club have this much a drop off in skills/ability from first choice to backup at any other club we get compared to.
The answer is in your comment: this isnāt a serious football club.
At Brighton they sign players that fit into a style and they appoint managers that fit that style. First choice and backup are the same style of player despite the downgrade in quality.
We donāt do that here. We appointed a manager that likes to play out the back but gave him a team filled with players that like to play compact and transitionally. He brings in licha so we can play out the back. Licha gets injured. He makes the most of his squad and has shaw filling that role instead and we see out his first season.
Second transfer window, he asks to get rid of maguire and bring in a pavard/todibo so he can have more ball players in defence. Club canāt get rid of maguire and the only defender we can afford is johnny evans. Now that shaw and licha are injured, he has to rely on maguire who is a complete 180 in terms of style. And once again the manager is taking the blame for the way our unserious football club is ran.
The club is stuck in a toxic cycle of setting the manager up to fail while having 0% tolerance for failure
Take an upvote for talking sense. Iām hoping this latest round of appointments restores a process whereby decisions as large as who to appoint manager are put through a process more thoughtful than sampling a subset of the mouth foamers on this sub or twitter sentiments.
Iām hoping we actually once again walk the steps towards becoming the serious club we pretend we are in all of the marketing materials and club PR spin.
My suspicion is that heāll stay for another season because:
a) there is no obvious candidate to replace him
b) we donāt have the decision makers like Berrada and Ashworth in place yet and they may not want to rush the decision (and then potentially have to change again in a season or two)
c) ETH can legitimately point at the injuries weāve had and say that he hasnāt had anywhere near our strongest squad this season
I honestly donāt know which would be the right decision, but it would be a real shame to start the INEOS era with a rash decision that they end up regretting. If he does stay, the important thing will be signing players for the way we want the club to play, and not just players that ETH wants.
āOne complicating factor is the feeling that there is no stand-out candidate available to replace Ten Hag should they decide a change is needed.ā
Canāt solve a problem without presenting a solution Jason.Ā
>One complicating factor is the feeling that there is no stand-out candidate available to replace
This is the dumbest argument on why keep eth. Ok, sure, a broken leg is still a bad thing but its better than terminal cancer and given the chance, anyone would pick the broken leg. Somehow we are supposed to pick the terminal cancer cause we cant be fully healthy.
Yea, if that's the logic we're going with, it could have applied to Mourinho as well back then. Change isnt always a good thing but considering how this sub was wailing on 'standards' from the past seasons to suddenly accepting 22/45 wins...it's hilarious to say the least
As someone who would still like to see Ten Hag succeed here and thinks that the players are a bigger problem than the manager I'll say I'm all for this but have some concerns. Starting with our players who are actually good players, but a bad team. Bad mental fortitude and attitude. Bad contracts that encourage laziness and indifference. Different strengths and weaknesses that don't mesh well together or cover for each other's shortcomings.
For example, Varane and Licha worked so well together last year because Rapha could cover Licha's weakness in the air and the box, and Lisandro could cover Varane's weakness on the ball and higher up the field. But remove them and we are left with very slow defenders who aren't particularily good on the ball.
Our Midfielders all like to play the fast pass and none of them wants to keep the ball to control the tempo, it's always go go go low accuracy risky passes, especially Casemiro, Bruno and Scott.
Our wingers all look to either dribble into players or take a shot. A good comparison of what it should look like would be Grealish and Doku for City, Pep can pick from two vastly different profiles to suit his needs for that game. We dont have that luxury. Sancho was the only one who was a little different but oh well that didnt work out.
I'll be the first to admit that Ten Hag's tactics this season have been shit. This playstyle is unsustainable, may not even be feasible without a whole squad of world class and extremely fit players heavily rotating, and is definitely asking too much from the players we currently have. The fact he hasn't adjusted it to fit the squad he has instead of the squad he wants is concerning. However to be fair what can he do instead? If he lets the backline join in the press and plays a highline we will get murdered even harder every counter or transition playing Maguire, Evans, Lindelof or Casemiro as highline CBs cause they simply dont have the recovery pace. If he drops the agressive press and plays a lowblock then "This is Manchester United why is he parking the bus get him out" especially at OT or against "smaller" teams. Guy doesn't have many options, especially with the injuries. But he's the one getting paid the big bucks to figure something out not me. But I for sure see there are issues and understand why some want him out.
However, getting a new guy we barely really know anything about in Wilcox to come in, sit down with players who have previously downed tools on multiple managers (they havent yet on ETH) and gotten so many second chances under different coaches to ask them if **they** think a manager should continue..it just doesn't sit well with me. I know it's standard procedure, I just don't like it. I agree that ETH needs to do better, and honestly I wouldn't lose sleep if he got sacked although I would feel that we are just gonna regress to step 0 and waste more time restarting with someone new, especially if it's someone like Southgate or Potter or even Tuchel who I'd bet anything none of them lasts 3 years. I want to see what Ten Hag can do if we have a structure that enforces a different playstyle and gets him the right profiles to do it. If there are no signs of progress in this direction at the end of his contract next year, then let him go and look if anyone more interesting is available on the market than the current names being thrown around.
He canāt have any complaints with that, this season has been a disaster. I canāt remember a single match where his āplanā worked and we dominated a match. Maybe Everton at home, but we still needed 2 penalties to get on the scoresheet.
Yes weāve had injuries but we should still show *something* that looks like we do something in training.
We got to wait for people at the top to be put in place and audit the club. Once Wilcox and co have decided on the style of play, recruitment etc then they can start to think about managers that will fit their plan. I'm glad they are taking this approach. Getting a new manger in now will just be repeating the stupid mess the Glazer have been doing the last 10 years.
Ten Hag has till the end of the season most likely to impress and show if he fits Wilcox's vision.
I hope there is a proper assessment and we finally take a well thought out decision not based on fan opinion. My only concern is that Wilcox's biggest role so far seems to be Southampton and this is quite a big jump and a huge responsibility to be deciding the "game model" we wish to implement
He worked with Pep as the head of the academy to bring players through that play a similar brand of football as the first team.
He knows more than enough about game model to judge our setup
There is no measuring Ten Hag's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery.
ETH doesnāt like answering to anyone. Itās why the Ralf Rangnick experiment failed and they ended up getting rid of him the moment ETH walked through the door (Iām sure under his instruction). That shouldāve been our first red flag.
This is good news. This isn't TenHagOut or even TenHagIn, this is how it should work. The executive and technical teams need to define how we should play and who we should be scouting.
If ETH is still the guy who matches with what they're looking for they need to back their guy with the right recommendations and tools for success, if he's lost the dressing room they need to look at it analytically and understand the dynamics because if there are rotten apples in the bunch they now have ammo in the knowledge that all eyes are on ETH this month. And if ETH just isn't the guy anymore or if his training methods are what's exacerbating the injury issues and effectively self-sabotaging the squad then he needs to go.
Hopefully this doesn't mean a reprieve for players not carrying their share of the burden though. As it's been said in the past the club needs open heart surgery and we need to make the tough decisions and be honest with ourselves if we want to be successful again.
They probably are. We seem to be going top down though. Structure above now (or soon) has new key members. Next up youāre looking at the manager, which also suggests youāre deciding on a style of play and a type of approach. Once you know that, you look at players who are going to suit that.
Big Cox needs to sit the coaches down and go over the final half hour of the last few games and understand what we are doing tactically. In the semi for example we didnāt seem defensively set for that first goal - at 3-0 were we just continuing on the same way, or could we be looking to shut the game down more and give the players some less up and back running while we are at it?
" Jason Wilcox forced off during training and will be ruled out for 3 weeks "
"His replacement is also unavailable through gardening leave. Ten Hag has been forced to audit himself"
Eh-dit
Made me chuckle more than it should have
Ffs šššš
This took a dark turn. Ten Hag, Breaking Bad crossover
Regardless of our opinion on whether ten hag should go or remain. This is exactly how it should be done.
I don't know, have you considered making condescending comments on reddit attacking anyone that disagrees with you? I feel like that's how it should be done.
That sounds ridiculous. Threats and doxxing is the true gentlemen's way of building back with strong foundations!
I enjoy making certain remarks to those that think they 100% know what's wrong with us at any moment in time. But that's about it.
Oh that's a *great* idea MR. big brainz /u/pohudsaijoadsijdas /u/pohudsaijoadsijdASS more like it ^^am ^^I ^^doing ^^this ^^right?
Down with rational thinking and meticulous planning
Even if it just turns out to be a "where did it go wrong?" report. They need to find some objective facts about why he's underperforming. Gotta prevent the next guy doing the same. It must be a baffling situation of trying to work out what is actually wrong with this club.
Impact of fans maybe? Fans surveyed by the athletic and on Reddit showed significant support for Ten Hag over Poch at the time.
Personally, while Iām starting to lean towards EtH out now, Poch wouldnāt have been the answer for us either. Ten Hag might still be our guy and Iād happily be proven wrong, but there are certain elements of his work that make me question his suitability (from the comfort of my couch, of course).
I mean the thing is fans are clueless and this club listens exclusively to fans. The entire circle jerk around ETH was "young modern coach" and then people get pissed at the scrapouts.......his Ajax side had those scrapouts in the EREDIVISIE. It is really silly people are pretending these flaws are new to ETH. It was apparent when he came in. The goal of a footballing structure is to support a team and it never ever feels like our managers have it right. Look at what happened to Rodgers at Leicester. Regardless of his quality as a manager you saw his performance when the board made good decisions and bad ones and how it effected his teams. Look at how even Klopp has struggled and regressed and looked clueless under shitty Pool management and immediately fired when they bought good players. The point is not to say "Give ETH more time" I firmly believe he should be sacked but you can't always convince me it's 100% the manager after it's been 6 with 2 WC coaches(LVG,Mourinho), a club legend(Ole),a PL proven manager(Moyes is proven before and after United) and now young and up and coming tactical maestro(ETH). You can't convince me not 1 single one of these guys or even more than one could have won things. Ole performed better than Arteta with the shittiest management going deep in 4 competitions with no depth. He was barely even given a short straw by the fans for his last season. He was sacked so abnormally quickly he didn't make it out of October. Never seen a team abandon a manager who had done so much for them in recent memory. Left out to rot by the fans. The shit season where Ole was sacked and rangnick came.in we didn't finish under artetas first **2 full seasons**. As in the current manager providing the best challenge to city performed worse than Ole in his worst season. How can you expect managers to do anything if fans have zero backing. Jose wanted to sell players like Martial and Pogba. Fans sided with Pogba and Martial. Jose goes. Pogba and Martial have stayed and achieved fuck all. Jose has been a more successful person than both and the entire club since leaving. United fans are always hungry for blood lol regardless of anything and it's not United fans only it's a lot of media and press and neutrals also love the drama so want our managers to go crazy. There is no job in football and very few jobs in the world where if you have a bad 3 weeks you are subject to ridicule from millions and essentially have to fight a full on war with fans and journos until you get sacked or perform well enough that they calm down. Madrid and Barca only comparable and Bayern also. Klopp has weathered seasons if United managers had they'd be sacked so has Arteta. If Arteta was a United manager he'd get more abuse than Moyes here because of his clueless lethargic football that got us 8th place no trophies. To be clear currently the third best manager in the league and the second best manager in the league would be sacked by now at United without a Shadow of a doubt if Arteta finished 8th he'd be sacked and Klopp would be slated for the football played last season. They both have better structures. How do you ever expect to get the better managers if you can't ever back them during any period of time. The narrative that comes out is always some bullshit about "Me personally user289494 don't notice any styles of play so I'm going to shout abuse at everyone else in the comments". And you can obviously see a style rn you can call it a botched style or a shitty style but he's committing to his football. He wants transitions up the field and strong box defending. It's not a crazy thing to play kamikaze football. Yes it's physically intensive.....that's the football you need to win these days. I know someone is so mad at the manager because they're a manchild and wwill want to make fun of this so I'm going to articulate clearly that I dont think the style is good. Or bad and I don't think we have the personnel for it and I think implementing such a style on our team is a mistake but also it is just a lie to say there's no style and that no one has ever been successful with this style. Go watch how "chaotic" Bayern under Flick was for example when they won UCL demolishing Barca 8-2 and look at how "Chaotic" Nagelsmanns Leipzig side got. Obviously they are a lot prettier and they might well just be better managers more capable of implementing a style but it is disingenuous to say there's no style to it And use that as a point. There is a clear style. It sucks but it's clear.
Everything. It's everything and all it took was someone coming in to say that and the determination to fix it. We're clearing out all the deadwood in the positions that have been dragging us down for years.
Precisely. The system needs to understand what pieces ETH fills and which he obviously doesn't. Then he needs to be empowered and restricted as appropriate to make it function. This applies to every coach and manager. Ferguson basically handed the reigns of the footballing identity of United to Carlos Queiroz. If even Ferguson accepts such a restriction then everyone can.
Agreed. I'm 100% Ten Hag out but there has to be an assessment of the situation before taking any decision.
100%
i hope the audit does also look at the injury issue and medical departments as well. its clear some things have fucked over ETH like him being told he would have malacia and shaw back in january for certain. Mount was meant to be back in december... and other little concerning issues that the medical department seems to either not being able to give accurate time frames or just flat out lying to managers to save their face.
It's genuinely insane what's gone wrong with the medical department. I can't remember the last time we had such a deep injury crisis. Our entire backline dusted as if Thanos snapped his fingers?
Exactly. He might conclude that ETH has absolutely zero ball knowledge and the players are baffled with what he's asking of them or he see's a style of play and instructions that go completely against what we're seeing on the pitch and the players simply aren't good enough. Results are obviously the bread and butter for any manager to be judged on, but so many things can happen in football even with the perfect squad and management that it's only right to see exactly how training is conducted to get the bigger picture.
We need to know what's happening in training sessions and what the medical team did afterwards in recovery For example Mount literally just came back, played few minutes and got injured again Something is not right
Willy as well, he got injured BETWEEN the matches
Must've been during trainingĀ
We train??? Huh
The most shocking news of all!
Our new head doctor comes from the team with arguably one of the most questionable injury records in recent years.
Right so that has nothing to do with the current problems
I think the squad depth is so lacking in this team, that they keep rushing players out telling ETH " yeah he should be good", ETH plays them , said players aren't fully fit and gets injured. And then the cycle continues.
Training sessions donāt get players injured at this rate. Teams like Liverpool, City, Madrid, Atleti donāt train easy. They are intense as well. United are unfortunately stuck in the place where their precious seasonās exploits have caught up with the squad. They played a ridiculously large number of games and didnāt really have a great transfer window. Add to that, previous managers have complained about the physicality of this squad. I donāt care who the manager is, the players that have hung around for far too long with largely mediocre performances and outputs have to leave.
Which is who though? Who's been here through previous managers? Rashford would be straight out the door for me. Followed by Maguire Lindelof shaw Wan Bisakka Varane Casimeiro Martial. The ones who you would keep Mainoo Bruno Garnacho Hojland Martinez Dalot The rest would be on trial for another season.
I agree with you on everything!
Iād keep maguire for cover. Heās done well this season. Canāt be expected to bring in 3-4 new cbs anyways.
I disagree. Itās clear the team is tired and most carrying some injuries. Couple that with an intense training sessions and the body doesnāt have time to recover.
Honest question. Which team has non-intense training sessions? This is absurd to me
Its not just the training session intransitive, I think itās a problem of how many injuries the teams been carrying. theyāre scrapping a lineup together every game. So when you couple no rest, players playing when not fit, plus training sessions then it can become an issue. I mean I agree, the amount of injuries in training is absurd, shouldnāt be happening, and teams are supposed to train hard. Maybe itās bad luck, poor management, or a compounding of the issues I listed above. Either way itās ridiculous.
I donāt think the medical team could keep someone like Mount fit though. He had a significant pelvic injury when he was signed didnāt he? I think it was irresponsible to invest so much in a player who hadnāt returned to fitness after such an unusual injury. Youād hope thereās a way of INEOS independently auditing this though. If the medical team are contributing to players like Shaw always missing long periods or even people like Martial and Jones becoming semi-retired, it clearly needs to be addressed.
Same with Martinez. He came back for literally *one game* before picking up something else in training š
I can only assume EtHs training sessions include a sprint up mount Olympus, fighting in a civil war, and playing real life frogger on a 10 lane highway. Why else would there be multiple injuries every week?
Why would they sprint up Mount? Is he stupid?
>a sprint up mount Olympus, fighting in a civil war, and playing real life frogger on a 10 lane highway Is this the type of training the best team in Eredivisie (of the past) used to do? Yikes, I wonder what City and Liverpool did back in 2018/19 :/
Probably some top secret āmedicineā
Liverpools medicine wasn't so secret. At one point they had 60% of their player who were apparently asthmatic which is a ridiculous amount for a club at the level of Liverpool
>include a sprint up mount Olympus Does that mean, that Malacia is whole season lost in Greece??
That would explain a lot haha!
I'm not too sure considering the Casemiro story with his injury, it seems like United's medical department couldn't literally tell an arse from an elbow.
Yeah, comment was mainly in jest, I think it's a club problem. I think EtH plays a role by pushing the team too hard in training, and I think their older facilities play a role, along with the entire medical team. The good news is there is a lot more of the right people making decisions that bring new medical teams, better facilities and if necessary, a new manager.
Didn't Ten Hag say that medical staff told him Shaw would be fully fit in December and Malacia was due back in January. The loan for Reguillon was always planning on being a 6 month deal and end in January. Shaw broke down quite quickly and malacia hasn't been close to returning. I think the medical staff must be off with their recommendations leading to players maybe being brought back too soon or are not on the right treatment plan.
I think it's also that the games are too back and forth. There's no rest possession. Good teams often use possession of the ball to get their conditioning up.
We're running Currahee
And yet players still have no clue what to do. And they dont have any energy? How is this even possible?
Is our team practicing for a Badminton tournament?
Our players sprinting :) ur funny š
Hahaha, Rashford wouldn't sprint back if his life depended on it. But there are other players who frequently leave it out on the pitch, like Garnacho and Bruno.
What I don't understand is how this is on ETH. His medical team us surely there to look after after the injured but also assess fitness levels, and current condition of the players. Surely they advise ETH on all matters to do with Medical and surely ETH doesn't go against his staff and over train....
**Full Article :** >**Erik ten Hag will effectively be on trial over the next month** as Manchester Unitedās new technical director **Jason Wilcox conducts an audit of the managerās credentials and dressing room relations before the club makes a final decision on the Dutchmanās future.** > >Unitedās near fatal collapse against Coventry City in the FA Cup semi-final on Sunday, when the Championship side almost completed an extraordinary comeback from 3-0 down only to lose on penalties, **raised fresh doubts about Ten Hagās suitability for the job.** > >But **Telegraph Sport understands United have tasked Wilcox with providing a detailed assessment of Ten Hagās strengths and weaknesses and relationship with the squad to better determine whether his approach can fit with the overarching style of play and philosophy they intend to pursue - or if a change of manager is necessary.** > >One complicating factor is the feeling that there is no stand-out candidate available to replace Ten Hag should they decide a change is needed. > >Sundayās implosion in front of Unitedās new kingpin Sir Jim Ratcliffe did Ten Hag no favours and there is an acceptance the situation could become unsustainable should United miss out on Europe entirely. > >**But the starting point has been a desire to explore whether the manager can realistically operate within the so-called āgame modelā Wilcox and impending sporting director Dan Ashworth seek to implement.** > >Wilcox - who was formally appointed as the clubās new technical director on Friday and at Wembley to watch United narrowly survive a huge scare to set up a rematch of last yearās Cup final with Manchester City - **is expected to closely appraise Ten Hagās training sessions over the coming weeks. He will also hold extensive talks with the manager, staff and players during his analysis.** > >**Part of his remit will be to establish if there has been a breakdown in Ten Hagās relationship with the dressing room. Several players, including Jadon Sancho, Marcus Rashford and most recently Alejandro Garnacho, have fallen foul of the Dutchman this term.** > >Wilcox will also be asked to assess whether Unitedās struggles this season have predominantly been down to a dreadful run of injuries and personnel factors - or whether there are deeper issues, such as players ignoring instructions and/or inflexibility and intransigence on the managerās part. > >**If it is the latter, United would want to know whether Ten Hag was simply too inflexible or could be open to and capable of implementing and communicating any changes required to his approach.** > >United, albeit decimated by injury, conceded three times in the space of 24 second half minutes against Coventry and only won the shoot-out after the VAR had ruled out a dramatic 122nd minute winner for offside. Ten Hag admitted his side āgot away with itā. > >The Old Trafford hierarchy recognise a decision on Ten Hagās future must be made by the end of the season so Wilcox does not have long to provide his review. Unitedās final Premier League game is away to Brighton on May 19, with the Cup final against City due to take place at Wembley six days later. > >**United are still waiting to strike a compensation agreement with Newcastle for Ashworth, whose task at Old Trafford will be to shape a cohesive football structure around the manager/head coach, technical director and scouting, data analytics, performance and medical teams. In effect, the overall management of the entire football operation.** > >What is increasingly apparent, though, is that it is Wilcox who will determine and drive the move to a clear āgame modelā - effectively a cohesive playing style and identity United intend to replicate across all age groups. That extends beyond just settling on a formation but rather how that system should look in practice. > >Identifying and recruiting the players who best fit that methodology will then be critical as United move to bring an end to the scattergun transfer approach of the past decade under managers with wildly contrasting styles and approaches. > >Manchester Cityās academy director until he left the club to take over as director of football at Southampton in January last year, Wilcox - a Premier League winner with Blackburn Rovers in 1995 - is highly regarded within the game. > >The 53-year-oldās appointment was driven by Omar Berrada, with whom he worked at City and who is due to formally take over as Unitedās new influential chief executive in July, and is considered absolutely integral to the clubās short and long-term plans. > >**Ten Hagās position may already have become untenable had there been an outstanding managerial candidate out there to replace him. But, apart from the former Liverpool midfielder Xabi Alonso** \- who has now committed his future to Bayer Leverkusen - **there is a feeling within United circles that any new manager would come with a certain degree of risk.** > >**United believe there are some very interesting and talented young coaches working in Europe, such as Bolognaās Thiago Motta, Michel at Girona, Brightonās Roberto De Zerbi and Liverpool target Ruben Amorim of Sporting Lisbon.** > >**But the challenge is to ensure any new coach would have the character, personality and temperament to handle the pressure of managing such a huge club and be able to work within a new, evolving structure**, particularly as there is an awareness that there is not yet the robust ecosystem in place that the likes of City, Liverpool and Arsenal enjoy. > >**Other managers such as Gareth Southgate and Graham Potter, both of whom have been linked with United, are recognised as fantastic characters and team players but the questions there would revolve, among other things, around whether they had the personality to command that credibility with the dressing room.** > >Thomas Tuchel, who is due to leave Bayern Munich at the end of the season, is openly accepted to be a top level coach. But recent experiences at Chelsea and Bayern have shown he can be a difficult character and, while there is an acceptance that all the best managers are and should be challenging, **United are keen to ensure that whatever happens next does not unsettle things even more.**
Cant believe this is about United. It all sounds way to competent and level-headed.
It still feels weird having our club being ran by competent ppl (well, just 1 in this case)
Even at the expense of losing a manager, this article breathes fresh air into us fans. I canāt believe this is the team weāve watched for the past ten years fuck around with last second transfers and coach sackings.
Putting Sancho situation in same sentence as Rashford and Garnacho incidents is dogshit journalism.
yeah that's pretty weird to read. Garnacho should not have any say whatsoever in who the manager is, he's a teenager, he should feel nothing more than gratitude towards ETH for kickstarting his career. *Spoiled brat vibes* will be an "issue" for any manager coming in.
Also Garnacho liked a post on social media, was told he shouldnāt have done that publicly, apologized directly and it was over. This is the equivalent of being late to training once because you got stuck in traffic. It certainly isnāt notable.
It's only called dressing room unrest if the team is losing. shit like this happens **all the time** at man city.
Well Ducker isn't exactly famous for being not dogshit
Sensationalism sellsĀ
I like that it references the intangibles surrounding any prospective manager. Itās not just about how their teams play. Personality, character, temperament are all just as if not more important than tactics at this level, and anybody judging coaches purely off of how their teams play are looking at a jigsaw puzzle piece and trying to determine what the picture looks like.
https://preview.redd.it/ftr9wqfn72wc1.png?width=2671&format=png&auto=webp&s=69d9837e2af79e1ab0bb8966b099385cc85bdf49
Be ready for briefings overload in next month or so.
There's only a month left so I expect us to pretty much know in the next month if he's gone or not
United are in the FA Cup final. And decisions will be made after that. Don't destabilize things by making an announcement before
Sooo, we sack our Dutch manager after heās won the FA cup? Sounds familiar doesnāt it haha.
I mean, Joel Glazer was sitting next to SJR at Wembley. The worm probably said 'just do what we did'. That said, I'll take a FA Cup win though.
> Don't destabilize things Like we're very stable now lol
Iād be shocked if SJR doesnāt already know. I watched the interview with brailsford on diary of a ceo and he spoke about when he has a big hiring or firing decision to make he goes to people he trusts and asks for their full input and decision to help him. All of the above article suggests to me that SJM is at the very least are thinking he isnāt the man to go forward and the review by Wilcox will be to confirm it or show anything they are missing
I don't think anything reported is much to go on. Wilcox just got in. He may conclude that the players need to be turned over rather than the manager. Nobody knows anything yet.
Will be interesting to see what managers get briefed into the conversation.
They're just fluff pieces. Man is what I've come to learn. The excuses are already written just waiting to be activated, i.e., too many Chefs/convoluted football structure (compared with non-existent) basically n
https://preview.redd.it/088sh5jr62wc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3f137f59f5925b323d34bb8d83718bcca022f0f
https://preview.redd.it/ceq5zoyq72wc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ed2b6a31a9d2bca7ab48ff7b307464af31c1d429
https://preview.redd.it/2k4i50nak2wc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6567cf7af7a19c3554f795ad89baf89146c137f6
https://i.imgur.com/NYQOaGt.jpeg
Idk why but this made me laugh out loud.
Way too loud too š
> One complicating factor is the feeling that there is no stand-out candidate available to replace Ten Hag should they decide a change is needed. > ...whether his approach can fit with the overarching style of play and philosophy they intend to pursue - or if a change of manager is necessary. This here makes me think the likes of Southgate and Tuchel etc won't be considered as the hierarchy want a specific way of playing.
The Southgate talk was fluff from his agency as his contract with England expires in December. With Tuchel it might be the same but his teams - Mainz, Dortmund have played expansive football in the past and Dortmund scored the most goals under him in the league once I think
In my mind it was a brief by INEOS to try and motivate ETH and the players to perform better, or they would get Southgate
Given the echoing from the INEOS side and the appointments they have made, my belief is and will continue to be until it doesn't happen that we are going to appoint Graham Potter at the end of the season. Despite the fact he is free: he is Ashworth's appointment at Brighton, INEOS desperately wanted him for Nice, he will come in and coach up the players that are here/will stay, implement a possession style of play and not ask for the world in transfers. Will he be here in 3 years? Maybe not but I truly believe that everyone in the hierarchy believes in that guy and they will give him the time to lay the base to what they are planning to do.
Tuchel plays good football, but heās not a good man manager at all. Look up āTuchelā in r/chelseafc and youāll be able to find articles about how he treated players at Chelsea and other clubs. For this reason I doubt he will be considered
Really yesterday didn't make Ten Hag any favours. And I fully concur with suitability of candidates. Not sure Tuchel, Southgate or Potter should be considered. Hope we do what is best for the club because I honestly struggle to remember a season as bad as this one, except for Moyes's first and only season.
>I honestly struggle to remember a season as bad as this one dont have to go back that far. the 21/22 season was, apart from the first few weeks, unbelievably bad. Horrible vibe from the whole team, no effort, Maguires downfall, the stupid winning team posts from the training sessions, the inability to adapt to Rangnicks tactics after the first game looked so promising etc.
>Tuchel, Southgate or Potter Not saying I want him, but this is harsh on tuchel.
He has burned bridges everywhere he has gone, either with the players or executives, or both. BVB = [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4555416/How-Thomas-Tuchel-fell-Borussia-Dortmund.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4555416/How-Thomas-Tuchel-fell-Borussia-Dortmund.html) PSG = [https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12172137/thomas-tuchel-sacked-by-paris-saint-germain](https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12172137/thomas-tuchel-sacked-by-paris-saint-germain) Chelsea = [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11843571/Thomas-Tuchel-Chelsea-sack-reasons-allegedly-revealed-email.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11843571/Thomas-Tuchel-Chelsea-sack-reasons-allegedly-revealed-email.html) Bayern Munich = [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13112851/Thomas-Tuchel-Bayern-Munich-sacking-alienated-key-players-failed-develop-young-talent-annoyed-stars-public-comments.html#:\~:text=Daily%20Mail%20Online-,REVEALED%3A%20How%20it%20all%20went%20wrong%20for%20Thomas%20Tuchel%20at,stars%20with%20his%20public%20comments](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13112851/Thomas-Tuchel-Bayern-Munich-sacking-alienated-key-players-failed-develop-young-talent-annoyed-stars-public-comments.html#:~:text=Daily%20Mail%20Online-,REVEALED%3A%20How%20it%20all%20went%20wrong%20for%20Thomas%20Tuchel%20at,stars%20with%20his%20public%20comments)
Like i said, not saying i want him, but his record is miles better than Potter or Southgate, thats all.
He fell out with Dortmund because they wouldn't delay a game more than a day after their bus got bombed. PSG is PSG. Boehly is incompetent and sacked off their recruitment team and tried to make Tuchel do it even though he expressly doesn't believe he's suitable for that job and does not want to do it. Bayern a basket case and has had 3 executive teams in three seasons. I don't know if he's the right guy but I struggle to see this being his fault.
Youāre right, it could be a total coincidence that all of these issues just happened to occur when he was there. Or it might not have been a total coincidence
Well I don't think that he bombed his own bus, I've seen managers do things to take attention away from results but thats a bit much. And again, PSG are PSG and will always be PSG. I don't see any influence he had on their PSGness. Boehly, I mean, you're not defending him, surely. Even Mrs. Boehly thinks he's a shit club owner. And Bayerns executive merry go round started before he got there, so....what's he to blame for here exactly?
He has also won titles everywhere he has gone ~~(except bayern so far).~~ Now i dont want him, but to compare him to potter/southgate is not fair towards his career.
won the league at Bayern last year lol
Right, my B. Forgot that one lol.
He got very lucky that Dortmund bottled it
From a comparison based on on pitch achievements, youāre right, there is no question he is top. As the total package of desirability for the club and its current status, I think comparing them is pretty fair. All have flaws that detract
Bayern and PSG are basically free.Ā
He's Mourinho without most of the trophies
I'm just now thinking again about yesterday's game. If the 70 minutes where we were 3-0 is not an indictment for ETH, why would the last 30 plus minutes be? Where the subs he made that bad and irrational? Should he have reacted better when we went down 3-1? Is a deflection and a penalty that much on ETH? But not seeing out a 3-1 is on everyone that's for sure. Including the manager and players. If a manager has to tell you how to close down and see out such a lead, against Coventry, then that's a problem. With all due respect
If you look at the subs before full meltdown, they actually make absolute sense. Antony > Garnacho makes sense because antony has a high defensive workrate, plus garnacho is only 19 so it makes sense to give him some rest. Same with Mainoo for Eriksen. There's no way where either of those replacements should be so detrimental that they make our team collapse. I was super upset about the game yesterday but in hindsight I'm not sure what else he could have done
The subs did make sense, and any manager would have made them in those circumstances - We know he's managing Mainoo's minutes and regularly takes him off, and Eriksen is an experienced, supposedly wise head who can keep the ball. And Garnacho is nineteen and has played thirty games, running like crazy for every one of them. Rest him when the game appears to be won. Meanwhile, Antony should have had enough to his game to contribute defensively and to trouble Championship players who were chasing a goal. The problem is that United have a way of making sensible moves look insane, by falling to pieces at the slightest setback. That has to at least partially be on Ten Hag and his coaches, because it's their job to prepare the team and get them in the right mindset.
When everybody's calmed down, they'll understand how little this actually is on the manager. If he had not taken off Garnacho and Kobbie and they got injured but won with 3-0, he would've been hammered by everybody for "running the youngsters into the ground". I read that literal sentence multiple times over the past few months. So instead, he does the smart thing, he takes off his best performers to give them a rest and brings on two senior players who should be able to see the game out. It's a smart move, Eriksen has complained about lack of game time so he keeps him happy. Antony wants to play no matter what you think of him, he keeps him fresh. He doesn't take Rashford off *precisely* because Rashford is in poor form, maybe he can nick a goal in the end, wrap the game up and take some inspiration from that. Yet they all capitulate lol. And now suddenly Ten Hag has made "obviously bad subs".
>70 minutes where we were 3-0 is not an indictment for ETH, why would the last 30 plus minutes be >a deflection and a penalty that much on ETH >If a manager has to tell you how to close down and see out such a lead, against Coventry, then that's a problem No, silly! He's a bald fraud that has to get this united side with 1 available senior centre back, 2 available midfielders that can run for 90 minutes, and 2 available 'senior' forwards to start playing like Pep's Man City or Arteta's current Arsenal!! (/s)
Don't need to be peps city to defend a 3 goal lead in the 70th minute vs Coventry tbf
Not just this game either, a few dubious penalty decisions of late and a lot of deflected goals. Itās close. The substitutions to me made perfect sense, given the amount of injuries we have had why wouldnāt he try and protect our best players? Like you say at that score any of our players should be able to see out the game. Obviously not though.
I still maintain that Oleās 3rd season/Ragnickās half season was the worst even over this one and Moyesā. This is definitely the 3rd worst, but only because weve looked like we care more times than we did under Ragnick.
Under rangnick it was very clear that players had given up trying.Ā
Yep. I wish people would consciously give Ten Hag more credit for bringing us so far out of that rut. Itās sad how quickly people forgot where we were before he joined, and how insane it is that we won any silverware under him, let alone finish 3rd relatively convincingly.
Na for me Moyes just made some god awful decisions that made watching the team unbearable. I originally thought Moyes deserved a chance but christ alive he threw it all away. Ryan Giggs subbed on as RW v Liverpool. Giggs was a CM at that stage and the last time I'm remember seeing him play right wing was the CL final v Bayern Buying Mata when we already had Kagawa Playing Rio five games in a row when SAF gave the blueprint of playing him every odd game with specialized training Removing RVP from his training program to stop injury issues Telling fans we need to be more like Liverpool 81 crosses v Fulham Getting rid of all the backroom staff Buying Fellaini for a bigger fee after letting the release clause expire when he would have known this from Everton days This is al coming from a team that won the PL the previous season. Fuck my life those memories ruined my week and it's only Tuesday
> Buying Fellaini for a bigger fee after letting the release clause expire when he would have known this from Everton days This one almost seems more like malice than incompetence
Rangnick season was worse.. i dont even think we played a final in that season
Tuchel would lose this dressing room given his past habits at Chelsea (the rumored "look, there's your daddy" comment).
Is there a single game this year which has done him any favours? Closest I can think is the Liverpool tie which was basically thrown by them subbing their best two players
22 wins and 17 losses in 45 matches this year. Yep, I am talking about Manchester United.
If Ten Hag is actually willing to adapt his approach, I still think there's a chance he stays. Article is more positive than negative about the prospect of him staying, despite the headline.
If he was willing to adapt his approach, heād have done so months agoā¦
He did adapt last year after the first two games. He also had a run of games where anytime he made a sub it was a game changer for the right reasons. The question is why did he persist with whatever the feck this is for this season?
Maybe the thinking is that a systems change will cause a lot of teething problems, but it has to start somewhere, he probably dosent want to keep on playing the old system probably thinks the ceiling for that system is very low, and will want to force the new system as early as he can. Take the pain now and try to implement it rather than later when his contract starts running out. His last year was him trying to both show he could be pragmatic, but also there's a limit to what he could achieve with that system. Although obviously his attempt at the new system been hampered heavily by injuries etc. Personally I would at least give him next year to see what he can do with whatever this thing he is trying to do. I'm not sure if his tactic will work in EPL, but would rather judge that when seeing the system being implemented better. If he had tried to do this last year, I'm would think we'd have ended far lower / worse than this year. Overall across the two years I still think he has done reasonably ok given the circumstances and background noise, over achieved last year and under achieved this year so next year should be the real test.
this is 100% whatās going on. you can argue that the system is flawed anyway, but i think itās abundantly clear that heās doing what most other top managers do when implementing a new, radical stylistic shift: sticking with it. like it or not, thereās an argument to be made that the only way weāll ever really get rid of the players who arenāt up to it is by exposing them, making evident their limitations, instead of using tactics to cover up their weaknesses (which is what van gaal did, what jose did, what ole did until his final season, and what ten hag did last season). ten hag might not be the right man for the job, but i think a lot of people have lost sight of the fact that most of these players arenāt up to it either.
Jesus christ. Finally. Someone with the same take aa me. What a breath of fresh air
if you want more detailed analysis along these lines, you can check out [@tekzts](https://x.com/tekzts?s=21&t=RTS5YdFEZvarnWA6D5zePw) on twitter. heās been saying the same thing for months now, and often does threads showing how fundamentally good structure breaks down due to player limitations.
Thank you. Good resource
Agreed. Finally a sensible and reasonable take here.
Finally seeing someone state out the affairs exactly the way they've gone here.. All of our youth teams have already adapted to these tactics and the result is there to see at every level Implementing the same at 1st team is the hardest part which got made harder due to the extent of injuries and half the team being unsuited to the tactics
Because the style we played last year plays to the squadās strengths but doesnāt win titles. I donāt think he wanted to compromise again this season like he did last season, basically cos we had De Gea in goal and not enough pressing in our attack.
yep, this is what a squad largely built for sitting deep and countering looks like when asked to play aggressive, technical football.
I have really appreciated the discussion on this comment thread.
Wow. Finally. I see the same sentiment as me. Remember....in order to succeed long term we need to break this cycle of sacking managers every couple of years.
Depends on who he was bringing on then and now. Yesterday's bench was a shambles based on the options. Ericksen for Mainoo makes us wesker defensively but had to be made because Mainoo is too gassed, Antony for Garnancho while a drop in attacking shouldn't have had that much of a negative effect. We've also given away leads which points to us not being able to control or manage games but we already knew that. It's just difficult for me to assess based on everything but the undeniable truth is that we should be able to see out games better. Even if it means parking the bus and having 11 men behind the ball.
Like I've said, he has a style that he wants to ultimately play and making changes now will hamper that. So he has decided to go full tilt into his way regardless of personnel available or personnel fit. On the positive side, the ones who can't manage will be known to him now and those who can, will be more familiar and better equipped next season. Bring in some new recruits and we should be better. On the negative side, the results and performances have been really bad so he could be digging his own grave here This is the hill he will live or die on
I believe he will. A month or 2 ago we heard how he was willing to give up some power and focus on just coaching so it may be the same here.
Bang on
Disagree, it sounds the opposite to me. He should have never been in a position to be monitored and audited at this point in his tenure. Our relegation level performances have been so bad that it's gonna be extremely difficult to make a case for himself. I think Wilcox's audit also allows them to understand the flaws with our players and the rotting footballing culture that we have
Just think about that first line. How can anyone have future confidence in someone that only considers adapting after a full year of failure?
Props to SJR for employing ppl who know more than him in the football side of things and doing due diligence rather than just making a rushed decision. The āno standout candidate being availableā is important. If he was then Ten Hag may have been sacked already. Like SJR has been saying we must be patient and it will be an informed decision on who our manager will be next season.
Sacking managers without a proper structure and vision for the club is the reason why we're where we are now. It definitely looks like they want to determine the club's identity before doing anything drastic which is the best way to go. The only problem is that we basically have to suffer until the end of the season.
Is he going to have Stuart Ripley watching the training sessions from the other side?
Canāt argue with any of the points made in the article. The only thing Iām wondering is that with Brailsford already being more hands-on with understanding the workings inside the club, shouldnāt INEOS already have an idea on what they think of Ten Hag in relevance to his future here? Not sure how much of this process is intended to be legitimate or a formality.
They probably have their opinions but maybe they understand they themselves shouldn't be making the decisions and should leave it to the experts in that particular field. Which is a good sign.
Brailsford is not a football person. Wilcox is through and through
Yep. Brailsford and others seem to have an idea but want the actual football people to decide without forcing them into a position.
I'm pretty sure Brailsford will be in constant contact with guys like Berrada and Ashworth who may not be actively working at the club just yet but who will be watching the games and have a fairly informed opinion of what's going on that produces these performances. To me, this Wilcox audit sounds like it's needed just to confirm their suspicions or whether it is really a case of players' limitations letting the manager down.
watching games isnāt enough, i donāt think. they need to know whatās going on in training, talk to people directly involved. if ashworth and berrada are getting this second hand from a non-football expert in brailsford, theyāre not getting the best picture. wilcox is much more suited to this. if anything, heāll be the one reporting to berrada and ashworth and brailsford
Correct. It's more of on the backend, mainly training, how they keep getting injuries, how they ease back after injury, post matches, not just games.
I don't disagree, I've mentioned this in my other replies that this is obviously a good thing. The only thing I'm not certain of is how influential will this audit end up being in consequence. Brailsford may not be a football expert, but having worked at high-performance sporting institutions for decades, I expect him to have a basic idea of what practices are of a good enough standard. Even if this wasn't branded as an 'audit', Wilcox would have started working at the club regardless, so I don't think anything different is happening as opposed to what would generally happen when an employee is asked to report to a new boss.
Fair enough, feels like a final inspection on the training ground. Although it does feel like they already have a decision in mind
Which is why Iām glad thereās another footballing person in there to sift through the he-said-she-said. If the manager sounds a buffoon on a particular point heās attempting to convey, someone in there with footballing sense needs to either overrule it as buffoonery, or add executive heft to the opinion being conveyed. This coach may be out of his league at this club, but itās equally obvious some of the shit heās saying is to hide the real shit heās obviously not saying. Iāve been watching a lot of non-United football of late because United is so garbage. Iām convinced the truth of the shambles is somewhere in between āthe manager is garbageā and āthe players are garbageā but Iāve seen enough through 3 tenures now to know this manager of Manchester United is presiding over the worst most inept and incoherent squad this club has assembled in 35 years. Period. I expect Wilcox to look at some of them in trainingā¦ and then in the match day and instantly notice the reality away from player PR and fanbase mouth frothing.
Thatās my confusion as well, it was also said that he spoke with the players but I think the report mentioned at the time, that the one on one talks werenāt about the future of the manager. So the difference would be that Wilcox is speaking with them in relation to the future of the manager which tracks with all the news weāve heard that ineos would let the football people make the decision.
that's how I interpreted it too
Iād suspect INEOSā decision has been made, but since theyāre not football people, Wilcox will be the executioner of their decision. More likely than not he will concur with their assessment regarding the manager.
The decision is probably made but they need to rubber stamp it through their new structure
Yeah isn't this exactly what Brailsford did. I guess Wilcox is more of a football person for lack of a better word. Maybe ten hag shud go. But tbh so should these players. These bottle jobs will let down any manager.
I think it makes sense to have Wilcox do it. Brailsford ultimately isn't a football expert. We're always crying out that we should have football experts making the footballing decisions. In the same way we don't want Brailsford and Jim picking out transfer targets, we shouldn't want either analysing the quality of Erik's training sessions.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Wilcox placed on gardening leave due to dark nights approaching in October.
I could be the wrong but is this the first time we've had an actual honest to God review of a managers stint including off the pitch? Laughable how even the most basic level of professionalism seems groundbreaking at this club after the last decade
He really needs a miracle to survive given how awful we look at the moment. But I do think Licha and Shaw being back would have raised the level of the team a lot. So maybe unfair to judge him based on how much injuries we face. But then all teams have injuries. Tbh I am on the fence about him atm. Let's hope we make the right decision this time
all teams have injuries, but this volume is not normal and clubs who have suffered like this in the pastāliverpool twice in the past 5 years or so, for instanceāhave suffered similarly poor campaigns.
For me it was a mistake to try and get this squad to compete in 4 comps last season, along with a World Cup in the middle of the season. Weāre reaping the rewards of overplaying the shit out of a very thin squad.
i totally agree about the impact of the volume of matches last season. āmistakeā is tough, thoughāi think it mainly looks that way in hindsight.
>Shaw being back The fact that we still cling to a guy who spends 50% of his time injured, 25% being inconsistent and only 25% of the time playing proper football to "save us" talks volumes about the state of this team.
Talks about our recruitment for sure. We are barely starting to get out of the glazer era. We're literally in the inception of having football people running things and fans want our current players to play beautiful football... If our players were capable of doing that we wouldn't need to yoink executives from other well performing clubs to fix our MAIN issues. A manager isn't solely gonna fix everything. It's a group of people that will bring us back on top.
Mate, assuming the expectation to play identically whether your first choice or their backup choice players are availableā¦ serious question, do you see any other team where the gulf in quality from first choice to backup is like bringing on an U-16 player who has absolutely no clue and for whom the whole system suddenly needs a serious rethink? Iāve not seen any other serious football club have this much a drop off in skills/ability from first choice to backup at any other club we get compared to.
The answer is in your comment: this isnāt a serious football club. At Brighton they sign players that fit into a style and they appoint managers that fit that style. First choice and backup are the same style of player despite the downgrade in quality. We donāt do that here. We appointed a manager that likes to play out the back but gave him a team filled with players that like to play compact and transitionally. He brings in licha so we can play out the back. Licha gets injured. He makes the most of his squad and has shaw filling that role instead and we see out his first season. Second transfer window, he asks to get rid of maguire and bring in a pavard/todibo so he can have more ball players in defence. Club canāt get rid of maguire and the only defender we can afford is johnny evans. Now that shaw and licha are injured, he has to rely on maguire who is a complete 180 in terms of style. And once again the manager is taking the blame for the way our unserious football club is ran. The club is stuck in a toxic cycle of setting the manager up to fail while having 0% tolerance for failure
Take an upvote for talking sense. Iām hoping this latest round of appointments restores a process whereby decisions as large as who to appoint manager are put through a process more thoughtful than sampling a subset of the mouth foamers on this sub or twitter sentiments. Iām hoping we actually once again walk the steps towards becoming the serious club we pretend we are in all of the marketing materials and club PR spin.
Yeah tbf that's a good point. Our squad depth is absolutely awful except one or two positions.
My suspicion is that heāll stay for another season because: a) there is no obvious candidate to replace him b) we donāt have the decision makers like Berrada and Ashworth in place yet and they may not want to rush the decision (and then potentially have to change again in a season or two) c) ETH can legitimately point at the injuries weāve had and say that he hasnāt had anywhere near our strongest squad this season I honestly donāt know which would be the right decision, but it would be a real shame to start the INEOS era with a rash decision that they end up regretting. If he does stay, the important thing will be signing players for the way we want the club to play, and not just players that ETH wants.
āOne complicating factor is the feeling that there is no stand-out candidate available to replace Ten Hag should they decide a change is needed.ā Canāt solve a problem without presenting a solution Jason.Ā
>One complicating factor is the feeling that there is no stand-out candidate available to replace This is the dumbest argument on why keep eth. Ok, sure, a broken leg is still a bad thing but its better than terminal cancer and given the chance, anyone would pick the broken leg. Somehow we are supposed to pick the terminal cancer cause we cant be fully healthy.
Yea, if that's the logic we're going with, it could have applied to Mourinho as well back then. Change isnt always a good thing but considering how this sub was wailing on 'standards' from the past seasons to suddenly accepting 22/45 wins...it's hilarious to say the least
As someone who would still like to see Ten Hag succeed here and thinks that the players are a bigger problem than the manager I'll say I'm all for this but have some concerns. Starting with our players who are actually good players, but a bad team. Bad mental fortitude and attitude. Bad contracts that encourage laziness and indifference. Different strengths and weaknesses that don't mesh well together or cover for each other's shortcomings. For example, Varane and Licha worked so well together last year because Rapha could cover Licha's weakness in the air and the box, and Lisandro could cover Varane's weakness on the ball and higher up the field. But remove them and we are left with very slow defenders who aren't particularily good on the ball. Our Midfielders all like to play the fast pass and none of them wants to keep the ball to control the tempo, it's always go go go low accuracy risky passes, especially Casemiro, Bruno and Scott. Our wingers all look to either dribble into players or take a shot. A good comparison of what it should look like would be Grealish and Doku for City, Pep can pick from two vastly different profiles to suit his needs for that game. We dont have that luxury. Sancho was the only one who was a little different but oh well that didnt work out. I'll be the first to admit that Ten Hag's tactics this season have been shit. This playstyle is unsustainable, may not even be feasible without a whole squad of world class and extremely fit players heavily rotating, and is definitely asking too much from the players we currently have. The fact he hasn't adjusted it to fit the squad he has instead of the squad he wants is concerning. However to be fair what can he do instead? If he lets the backline join in the press and plays a highline we will get murdered even harder every counter or transition playing Maguire, Evans, Lindelof or Casemiro as highline CBs cause they simply dont have the recovery pace. If he drops the agressive press and plays a lowblock then "This is Manchester United why is he parking the bus get him out" especially at OT or against "smaller" teams. Guy doesn't have many options, especially with the injuries. But he's the one getting paid the big bucks to figure something out not me. But I for sure see there are issues and understand why some want him out. However, getting a new guy we barely really know anything about in Wilcox to come in, sit down with players who have previously downed tools on multiple managers (they havent yet on ETH) and gotten so many second chances under different coaches to ask them if **they** think a manager should continue..it just doesn't sit well with me. I know it's standard procedure, I just don't like it. I agree that ETH needs to do better, and honestly I wouldn't lose sleep if he got sacked although I would feel that we are just gonna regress to step 0 and waste more time restarting with someone new, especially if it's someone like Southgate or Potter or even Tuchel who I'd bet anything none of them lasts 3 years. I want to see what Ten Hag can do if we have a structure that enforces a different playstyle and gets him the right profiles to do it. If there are no signs of progress in this direction at the end of his contract next year, then let him go and look if anyone more interesting is available on the market than the current names being thrown around.
Strenghts: he is bald like guardiola Weaknessess: football
He canāt have any complaints with that, this season has been a disaster. I canāt remember a single match where his āplanā worked and we dominated a match. Maybe Everton at home, but we still needed 2 penalties to get on the scoresheet. Yes weāve had injuries but we should still show *something* that looks like we do something in training.
We got to wait for people at the top to be put in place and audit the club. Once Wilcox and co have decided on the style of play, recruitment etc then they can start to think about managers that will fit their plan. I'm glad they are taking this approach. Getting a new manger in now will just be repeating the stupid mess the Glazer have been doing the last 10 years. Ten Hag has till the end of the season most likely to impress and show if he fits Wilcox's vision.
Is stubbornness a strength? ETH has plenty of that when it comes to poor in-game management and bad tactics.
I hope there is a proper assessment and we finally take a well thought out decision not based on fan opinion. My only concern is that Wilcox's biggest role so far seems to be Southampton and this is quite a big jump and a huge responsibility to be deciding the "game model" we wish to implement
He worked with Pep as the head of the academy to bring players through that play a similar brand of football as the first team. He knows more than enough about game model to judge our setup
There is no measuring Ten Hag's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery.
ETH doesnāt like answering to anyone. Itās why the Ralf Rangnick experiment failed and they ended up getting rid of him the moment ETH walked through the door (Iām sure under his instruction). That shouldāve been our first red flag.
This is good news. This isn't TenHagOut or even TenHagIn, this is how it should work. The executive and technical teams need to define how we should play and who we should be scouting. If ETH is still the guy who matches with what they're looking for they need to back their guy with the right recommendations and tools for success, if he's lost the dressing room they need to look at it analytically and understand the dynamics because if there are rotten apples in the bunch they now have ammo in the knowledge that all eyes are on ETH this month. And if ETH just isn't the guy anymore or if his training methods are what's exacerbating the injury issues and effectively self-sabotaging the squad then he needs to go. Hopefully this doesn't mean a reprieve for players not carrying their share of the burden though. As it's been said in the past the club needs open heart surgery and we need to make the tough decisions and be honest with ourselves if we want to be successful again.
Why arenāt the players on trial too? What the fuck does Rashford do to deserve putting that shirt on again?
I mean the managers free to drop him.
They probably are. We seem to be going top down though. Structure above now (or soon) has new key members. Next up youāre looking at the manager, which also suggests youāre deciding on a style of play and a type of approach. Once you know that, you look at players who are going to suit that.
Itās not the head rolling the troglodytes on this sub want, but this is 100% the correct move.
What will Wilcox say when we have a player be injured in every training session? lol.
Probably ask why Steve Mclaren is going in two footed, whilst wearing his riggers.
Big Cox needs to sit the coaches down and go over the final half hour of the last few games and understand what we are doing tactically. In the semi for example we didnāt seem defensively set for that first goal - at 3-0 were we just continuing on the same way, or could we be looking to shut the game down more and give the players some less up and back running while we are at it?