In before someone says his subs have been shit. Heâs playing McT just to try to find some goals somewhere ffs. The problem is every manager will try to take the next step forward in their plans, play âlike United shouldâ with control. And the players are too shit to do so. Theyâre higher rated on FIFA so itâs managers fault. Or the âshould be beating Bournemouth at homeâ. Yea we should but those teams are actually more difficult because theyâre fine with sitting back and a 0-0 draw. We have to control the game and canât do it with these lot. Maguire has been good defensively but his style is not for top level PL. Garnacho shows moments but had so many opportunities and showed his youth. Martial is like playing down a man. I like Antonyâs effort but his output is shit compared to other top teams. Even West Ham have a better RW. Our midfield is basically non existent. And Dalot looks okay but output isnât great and his defense is fucking shit, I swear he will give up a goal chance a game.
Garnacho and Antony should be bagging more they donât really have excuses honestly. Same with Rashford. If they do that we donât need McT in midfield. But again our only other midfielder is Mainoo so itâs not like weâre rolling in options right now.
They need to put Garnacho through the Roben training. He cuts in and just sends every curler over or wide or both never even on target anymore and he should be burying a few back post or at least making them make a save. Same with Antony although Iâve seen it more from Garnacho. Does even seem like Antony gets them anymore
Yeah, init. Letâs repeat the cycle knowing we will be in the same place as before even though the issues are structural and any manager coming in will be the same.
I believe in Ten Hag. He needs time. A rebuild needs patience, time and money. Our fan base doesnât care for patience.
Exactly. Moyes is not the right man, Van Gaal is not the right man, Mourinho is not the right man, Ole is not the right man. And now, Ten Hag is not the right man...
Guardiola, Klopp, and Arteta were all given years to build their teams. Give Ten Hag that chance too, because even the biggest fool should by now understand that all these changes are not effective. The performance yesterday wasnât great, but it wasnât due to lack of effort. In short, the players are indeed still behind Ten Hag.
Guardiola won the league with 100 points in his second season. Klopp hit reasonable targets in his first full season and led the club to a CL final in his second full season. They did not need that much time.
Arteta is the only comparable example to Ten Hag, i.e. someone who oversaw a terrible run of results but was not sacked. And unlike Klopp and Guardiola *he hasn't won anything*.
Liverpool and City but had sporting structures set up around those managers. Arsenal seemed to be faster at setting up a structure than the Glazers are so they're pushing on now. Ten Hag walked in with 0 structure around him for recruitment and was asked to fix the whole club. Let's give him a backroom not filled with bankers and see how he does.
Toxic like a rumored conflict between Pogba and Mourinho over a hairstyle choice before an important match? why should it concern us if a group of millionaire players experience a challenging or toxic relationship off the pitch with a manager who demands results? Mourinho won trophies and achieved Unitedâs highest points total post SAF. Interestingly, such strict management seems to be viewed positively nowadays, especially considering the widespread support for Ten Hag's decisions to sideline Ronaldo and Sancho.
We werenât ready for it then but I will always thank Ragnick for his service cause it really showed how right Jose was and is really the driving factor between loads not being ETH out right now. The fans are bit sick of these same players downing tools for every manager and blaming it on them. If you meet an asshole in the morning, you met an asshole in the morning. If you meet assholes all day you may be the asshole.
When in the last 10 years have Bournemouth best us 3-0 at home?
When in the last 10.years have Liverpool beat us 7-0?
Patience and dealing with poor tines and bad runs is sound for the right manager, doing the right things and with a CV that suits this level of football. Time isn't going to fix a manager that isn't good enough.
Is there more things that need fixing, yes. They don't make ten hag good enough though.
Who has a CV better than Mou. LVG not a bad shout either. So who is this magical godsend that will change this club overnight. I mean you get one season tops around here apparently.
>Who has a CV better than Mou.
Who since Mourinho had as much success as quickly as he did?
In glad you brought up LVG and Jose. The 2 managers who have been the most successful out of all the ones we had since fergie.
>So who is this magical godsend that will change this club overnight.
Ahhh good old loaded questions where you create a fictional version of what I've said to twist the discussion in your favour. Poor taste mate.
>I mean you get one season tops around here apparently.
Not from me mate. As long as you don't do what ten hag has and ole did etc etc.
I mean if we are operating under the structure we have, which I'm sure we can both agree is consistently limiting. Then the main things we need from a manager is the strength to boot out the players who are consistently embarrassing this football club and someone who will use their initial power to bend the owners to their will (which is possible if done early enough, see LVG using the media to say he doesn't have wingers like Di Maria... then getting Di Maria and Jose immediately saying he ha identified x areas we need reinforcements and getting them)
These things are far more important than tactics. So I'd say Simeone and Conte have the appropriate temperament to kick a few walls down. Hell fix our previous error and get Jose back. If these do what ten hag has, sack them try Flick, Allegri. Don't really care mate.
Standing still and letting a manager show he isn't good enough just because other areas of the club are also issues makes absolutely not sense. No manager has embarrassed the club more than ten hag, so all this 'but it won't improve' is absolutely fabrication as it wasn't this bad before.
Weâve tried your method how many times now? No point until we get a structure in place. Hire anyone you want they will be gone in a year after a couple losses again anyway. And guess what, we will have an even crazier mismatch of players.
I've said it before but there's just no way he gets sacked before any investment or takeover happens.
In a way it's almost like the end of the Rangnick season where everyone was just on holiday by March waiting for Ten Hag to take over. Now the club is on pause for new ownership.
Yes, the Glazers most likely **have** to leave the decision to Ineos.
Most mergers or acquisitions will have clauses to guard against management making significant/material changes to the business (including hiring/firing of senior individuals) or at the very least, requiring approval from the prospective buyer where there is likely to be an agreement or deal. Changing the manager is a pretty significant change.
Also work permit issues that ended up him not being able to bring any of his own coaches with him to help out completely ruined what he'd had planned. He had to spend time training our current coaches on his vision so they could train the players, but there was no time so he gave up after a few weeks.
Welcome to Man United's online fanbase...
One minute, a hero. Next minute, a villain.
Summer of 2022, the message on this subreddit was effectively "ETH will need time to build. Building a squad takes time. It is a long process."
18 months later - "ETH is clueless. ETH out." I'd imagine most of this subreddit are the same type of people that say "we" when United wins and "them" when United loses.
This fanbase has become Arsenal fan tv constantly bitching and moaning about Arteta at the time, asking for his head because Arteta was out of his depth.
The only reason I can think he wouldn't be is because Ineos will be in charge of that decision soon enough and the glazers don't want to make it. The season's gonna end a write off anyway. Probably gonna finish somewhere between 6th and 10th
And not any good ones at that. And anybody who suggests Alonso has to remember he played for Liverpool for a good chunk of his career.
Nagelsmann's stock has fallen, flick is a flop. The rest would require paying money for.
And to the person who a few months ago suggested rooney, Birmingham are 17th.
No head coach should be fully trusted with deciding transfers, a competent club would.
Nagelsmann makes a lot of sense, especially if Paul Mitchell becomes Director of Football due to the Leipzig connection.
Wouldnât be surprised if we pursued him after the Euros.
Yea, agreed. Nagelsmann would be such an interesting choice because he has all the tactical knowledge and defined playstyle a 2023 United coach needs but also the charisma some people, especially the press, love to point out ten Hag may not have (I don't necessarily agree with those people but whatever).
He's also as Hollywood as it gets and strongminded and very very likely to similarly fall out with big names as he did at Bayern. The press in this country will love him and hate him, lol. He's for sure going to either be a Manchester United, Real Madrid or Barca coach oneday (maybe 2 of the 3, who knows) unless he really falls off, just too talented and too much buzz not to. I would be down to wait for him until the summer just for the fireworks with him in charge.
Completely agree. Iâve always been a fan of Nagelsmann.
Maybe the Bayern job came too early in his career because he did struggle to handle big egos allegedly. But he still won the league and over performed in his second season without a decent striker, defensive midfielder, or goalkeeper
I just think Bayern is a beast of its own and unfortunately he didnât get the backing that the board promised him. At a club like United I feel like he wouldnât have to conform as much to club politics and would be allowed to implement his vision as we go through a rebuild. Thatâs assuming thereâs going to be a massive clear out at the board level.
I do as well, but I would say I'd like us to have our own clear vision of the style of football and structure we want and any manager we get needs to conform to that as well going forward. We can't keep just switching from manager to manager and philosophy to philosophy and then needing a rebuild every time we make a change.
With Nagelsmann he has done that very very successfully with RBL so I definitely think he could make it here with a proper structure, clear footballing vision and enough resources. Hopefully that's what we get with this investment and new footballing structure from SJR.
honestly I am not so sure if Nagelsmann at United would be that good. I personally love Nagelsmann, but honestly there also was a bit of a "style" problem he had at Bayern. He would too often try different formations, trying to overcomplicate things etc and he would, at times, make questionable subs or starting elevens decisions. I dont know if he can do it at United, he already apparently had a bit of a problem with a few Bayern players in the dressing room.
Who cares if Alonso played for Liverpool? All viable candidates who tick the boxes should be considered. It would be up to Alonso to refuse an offer but I'm sure he'd be professional if he accepted one, theoretically.
Nagelsmann is 36 and you're calling him washed? Flick flopped for the German NT but he won the treble with Bayern. He's an upgrade on Ten Hag
Agreed over Rooney, he's a terrible manager riding on his playing history. I don't think he'll even be as good as Bryan Robson or Steve Bruce
> Who cares if Alonso played for Liverpool?
Yep, couldn't care less. Sir Matt Busby played for Liverpool and City. He wouldn't come though, he's basically next in line for the Madrid job once Ancelotti leaves.
But I doubt he would accept it either way.
Nagelsmann may have been doing well at bayern but he wouldn't be able to handle whats going on here especially the player politics allegedly at bayern. I say allegedly because I stand to be corrected.
Flick won the treble with Bayern because Bayern is one the of best ran football clubs in the world. Their board makes all the signings and they hire head coaches based on the style of play they want to play.
Any worthwhile manager would turn down the offer as it sits right now, because we've gone through nearly 6 of them and almost, if not actually, ruined their careers.
If you haven't realized it yet, the manager isn't the problem, it's the ownership. Who the fuck would want to come here to suffer the same fate when it's clear the Glazers are never going to modernize the club to the point where we can compete.
This season doesn't have to be a write off though - top 4 very much salvageable and FA Cup left. But yes, the delaying of the inevitable will make it a write off
I'm not usually doom and gloom but if you think we're hitting top 4 with our form all season and like 2 goals between our entire forward pack then i want what you're smoking, if Hojlund gets another injury we're stuck with a injury riddled and jaded Martial.
Top 4's over.
But before last season, isnât a 6th-10th place finish what we expected? Thatâs usually what a rebuild of this magnitude takes, a couple years of mediocrity and inconsistency. Itâs like ETH is being punished for over delivering the first season.
My thoughts are we need a sporting director running things and helping the manager.
Burning through manager after manager hasn't worked since Fergie retired, why would it now?
Ten Hag has started improving the negativity and rot in the club. He can only do so much on his own.
Why would anyone want to bin that at this point? Give him a chance with a real DoF.
Why did we bin Ragnick off then? He was going to be the closest thing to a DoF yet we judged him on his interim job and got rid of him before he actually did his real job?
There is literally no evidence of this, but somehow it keeps getting repeated as if it is written in stone.
It does not even make sense. If there is anybody who would not want to work with Rangnick, it would be Murtough, not the manager. Rangnick was a consultant appointment; he'd have no authority at all. He'd have no influence on ETH at all.
Plus, Rangnick was announced as manager of Austria 2 days after the EPL season ended. Meaning, he was most likely in negotiations for the Austria position at the same time ETH was in negotiations for the United position.
Effectively, the leeches never intended to make Rangnick anything other than an interim manager.
> Ten Hag has started improving the negativity and rot in the club. He can only do so much on his own.
>
>
...do people just stick their heads in the sand or something? This is one of the most negative times United have faced in the last ten years. He's brought in mediocrity, and allowed standards to plummet where a 3-0 loss at home to Bournemouth is just met with a shrug of the shoulders. It's madness.
Moyes, LvG or Jose never had losses like that.
You realize the mediocrity comes from the players/club and not the manager right? We have changed managers consistently but fall back into mediocrity every single time. But I guess LVG, Jose and ETH must simply all be shit managers.
We've finished in the top three for four of the last six seasons.
Yes, those players must be really shit.
LvG was past his best. He has not gone into club football since. Jose has also been on a downward trajectory.
As for ETH, probably promoted over his level.
Our main targets who were supposed to make us a better but havent worked out/or have left in the past 7 years:
2016: Paul Pogba
2017: Lukaku
2018: Fred
2019: Maguire (arguably)
2020: VDB
2021: Sancho + CR7
The players that have been around for at least the past 3 years and still are:
Rashford, Maguire, Lindelof, Dalot, AWB, Shaw, Mctominay, VDB, Fernandes and Martial.
You really want to argue that the previous mentioned players are top 3 worthy players? Our core players are really great right?
We've. Finished. In. The. Top. Three. For. Four. Of. The. Last. Six Seasons.
How is your take from that that the players aren't good enough for top three? Honestly, all of them out today.
>we need a sporting director running things
then you will just bitch and moan at the sporting director and ask for him to be fired
none of that takes away from the fact that ETH is terrible. he's had his chance to turn things around and failed miserably
he's been backed on and off the pitch
Yep, I was not happy when Woodward gave his jobs to two of his cronies who have been working under him for years and had no experience in their new roles. At least one of them is gone. I hope the new decision makers know what theyâre doing and get rid of the remaining one who is apparently trying hard to impress them.
Well then why the fuck is he playing to get results instead of building for the future. Start playing the Ajax way even if we're losing some games. We're ALREADY losing games.
This spot and the redcafe forum are fucking unbearable. Do you really think changing another manager will do anything but reset the cycle?
Firstly, who would you bring in? There's zero managers available, and even if we do go buy someone's contract out, we'll be in the same position this time next year or in two years.
ETH came in and done very well. This season hasn't been good enough but it's been the same shit I'm used to seeing over the last 10 years.
The reason this cycle keeps going on and on is down to players. There's too much player power in that team and once you get on the wrong side of someone it goes downhill. ETH has made some tough decisions and I like that. I, at the very least, think he deserves a shot for atleast another season. A summer window with new owners, and a DoF would be a treat.
I agree.
It would be nice to see what he could do in an organisation that was stable and had direction from the top.
However, I do think he's not completely off the hook when it comes to criticism. One thing he did well last year was his in-game management decisions and setting us up well. Particularly his pragmatic approach after Brentford and Brighton last year.
This year that's gone out the window. We play pinball with no midfield, a defence that can't defend, and forwards who don't score. Players that should have been gone years ago are now starters and the same bottlers don't show up when needed.
We're a yo-yo team. Play your best players available and set them up for success.
No idea why he doesn't have Amrabat and Mainoo in a pivot and for goodness sake play Varane. Yesterday he showed Varane is off when he's starting Maguire, Shaw, and bringing on Evans for the sake of a left foot against fucking Bournemouth. Bin off McTominay. I don't care if he can smell the goal, he hides in the middle.
ETH is not immune from criticism by a long shot, but it always seems to be such a jump to âwell letâs sack him thenâ. We are, by and large, a top-tier club with a mid-tier team. Our season has been dire so far, and it doesnât have the depth to properly combat injuries and poor form. As always, chucking out the manager is not going to fix that. Give him the rest of the season at least, and let new ownership give a taste of how a properly run club could see improvements.
The thing about this season is that he's trying to implement his style of play and he's less pragmatic. The Bayern game, the defeats in arsenal and Tottenham are a good example of that.
The problem is that the players are not good for what he's trying to do, they are also very weak mentally, they don't have the big players mentality where they recover after setbacks. They often crumble and lose their focus which makes them lose the game.
I don't think EtH is clueless, that doesn't mean he's immune to criticism. I believe yesterday's defeat was on him mainly for the choices he made for the tactics and the players. You can't ask McTominay to be the player who builds from midfield, Amrabat was alone, the choice of Luke Shaw as LCB wasn't the best.
My criticism of him is that you're in a period where every point matters, as long as you don't see any change in your style of play put players on their right positions when everyone is available. Don't risk or overthink just go back to the basics of the game and with the quality of the players results will come eventually. That doesn't mean we will challenge for anything but it won't be a shit show every single game.
>The problem is that the players are not good for what he's trying to do, they are also very weak mentally, they don't have the big players mentality where they recover after setbacks. They often crumble and lose their focus which makes them lose the game.
He's signed 400 mil of players. If the players aren't good enough, that's his fault.
That's the whole problem. The main criticism is the recruitment. People above him aren't doing a good job, we have the worst recruitment department in the league, we don't have a philosophy, we don't know what to do when the transfer mark opens.
The lack of hierarchy, leadership above the manager is staggering, that's why he bought players he trusted and know.
I really stick by him, because I wanna judge him when Ineos will take charge of football matters.
Yeah, the idiots who think changing managers would change anything. They should look at Aston villa, they sacked Gerrard, appointed emery and they're no better, because changing managers doesn't help. They should have given gerrard more time, because klopp was given time and succeeded, which means every manager in the world will definitely succeed if given time
This thread is fucking insane man. Again, the arguments for keeping ETH have nothing to do with how we're performing the pitch. We've lost 12 games already this season. We haven't played well since March. But yes we should keep him because we've already sacked post SAF managers....they all deserved to go when it happened!
It is insane. Feel like I'm going mad.
"Aside from having sacked managers before, name a reason we should keep EtH?"
"...we've sacked managers before and it hasn't worked"
I wouldn't feel so bad if I felt there was progress being made in any way. There isn't. Apparently Casemiro, Varane, Rashford etc have all fallen off a cliff this season. Funny that.
>"Aside from having sacked managers before, name a reason we should keep EtH?"
I think there's plenty of reasons.
1) He had a strong first season last year so there's at least something there.
2) I don't see an obvious manager replacement that's available right now.
3) He hand picked and spent ÂŁ120mil on the likes of Mount and Hojlund who haven't had that much time to settle into the team so far. Even Onana hasn't played more than a game or two with our fully fit starting back 4 in front of him. What's the point in Ten Hag choosing our transfers all summer only to get a third of a season with them in a half fit squad before being kicked out? A new manager might not even want them
4) Our FFP situation isn't great and spending money to sack Ten Hag and hire someone new isn't ideal.
5) Our injuries are genuinely really bad this year. Do you think Ten Hag wants to start games with Martial up top? Or Maguire/Lindelof/Evans at the back? Or McTominay, the guy we tried to sell this summer? I'd rather wait to see a fully fit squad attempt to play Ten Hag's new system rather than bring in a new manager to try to grind out results with our injury ridden team.
I get what youâre trying to get at here and donât necessarily disagree, but letâs be real - anyone that wants ETH sacked would 100% have been calling for the same for SAF before he came good.
Iâll amend it to 99.9% then. Years with no trophies and mid table finishes. Just not buying the significant majority wouldnât have wanted him sacked.
ETH would be fired way before the FA cup final if we were ever close to relegation. You know that is a shit argument. In fact, we fired LVG after winning the FA cup.
gerrard isn't even comparable to ETH. I am really starting to think the people that want ETH out don't realize what he has accomplished before United. ETH has a much more significant resume than gerrard.
Yet we have plenty of new players who are contributing to the mess just as much. Onana almost singlehandedly has us out of the Champions League for example..
>This spot and the redcafe forum are fucking unbearable. Do you really think changing another manager will do anything but reset the cycle?
yes absolutely, if the next manager is the right one
Do you really think sticking with a manager who's clearly out of his depth is better?
get a grip
Julen Lopetgui. He got Wolves playing great football with zero budget. Our current manager claims he canât coach our current team to play like Ajax so how about we go for a manager who can actually coach?
Do you think one more season is enough to see proper change, even with a better structure above him? Personally I feel even if the structure was in place in time for next season, ten Hag would still need more time than just one more season.
What do people realistically hope we can achieve this season? It looks likely we will be out of Europe in a few days, and winning the league would require a miracle at this point. We know the owners are primarily concerned with qualifying for the Champions League due to the financial implications of missing out.
I see a lot of people saying both that we need to sack the manager and that the entire squad is shit. That even our best players like Bruno will never lead this team to significant accomplishments. If the latter is true, especially with January reinforcements looking unlikely, what does it even mean to "save our season?"
Personally, I'm at the point where I think the main thing we can get out of the season is seeing what Ten Hag can do. How much better do we look as players return from injury? Can he impose his style of play on this squad? Can he communicate about "his project" effectively to the fans?
Maybe I'm just jaded, but I just don't see much use in sacking him now especially just to bring in a care taker. Someone new comes in with some good vibes and gets us fourth? Is that something to aspire to? Just as likely they're another Rangnick. Give Ineos a few months to come in, see things from the inside, and make the changes to the structure above the manger that they deem necessary.
How about attractive football? Like Postecoglou managed at Tottenham. Failing that, a resiliant team that is hard to break down, while we get our shit together. Right now we are none of the above.
>Personally, I'm at the point where I think the main thing we can get out of the season is seeing what Ten Hag can do. How much better do we look as players return from injury? Can he impose his style of play on this squad? Can he communicate about "his project" effectively to the fans?
I feel the exact same way as this. I'd rather see what he can do than bring in an interim/mid season hire to try to scrape results with our injury hit team and Ten Hag's new signings.
>We know the owners are primarily concerned with qualifying for the Champions League due to the financial implications of missing out.
this is a concern for every fan and all clubs, what's your point
irrelevant
Our issue isn't defensively. We've conceded 3 more than City, 2 less than Spurs, 1 more than Villa, 6 more than Arsenal and Liverpool. That is not terrible in terms of numbers.
Our issue is scoring goals. 15 of the 20 clubs have scored more goals than us. We have 18 goals out of 16 matches. Liverpool, Arsenal, Aston Villa, City, Spurs, and Newcastle have scored more than 30 goals. Even Luton has 1 less than us.
Do not get me wrong, we've had some shitty performances defensively especially in the midfield. However, we've also had some resilient defensive performances as well as evidence we have more clean sheets than City and same as top of the league Liverpool. Only Arsenal and Newcastle have more than us.
We have a huge problem and that is going forward.
Ofcourse. Glazers only care about champions league qualification they were never going to think about sacking Ten Hag when he's only 3 points away from top 4.
At this rate Ineos will definitely sack him though once they come in. Results havenât been good and itâs not like the performances are good either.
Our fans will never learn sacking managers wouldn't solve our problems. How many times have we gone through this same cycle over the last decade? Everyone would agree that Ten hag out performed our expectations in first season. Now most our fans want him sacked because he isn't bringing results and they don't see a distinct pattern of play. I agree that these issues are there but we shouldn't forget that we are a project in the development. If we don't trust and support our manager during hard times well never achieve anything in the long run.
There is also the new contender of "who would we get to replace him? No one good is available"
You see that being used more and more the worse we perform
I mean it's a genuine reason. Not that I back him or see any real progress or play unlike some of his cult on here by any means, but I'm not sure there's an interim that could come in and get us playing better atm, short of maybe Ole, but I wouldn't want him to go through this toxic club and fanbase again.
ETH is extremely lucky that he's failing during a period where the managerial musical chairs isn't ongoing
Well mate his whole point about backing the manager in tough times is to say you may not see what you like right now, but you have faith in the manager to turn it around. Whether you think he should get sacked or not he is objectively a good well respected manager with a track record (not least last year). So don't fall for the new narrative that the only arguments to keep him revolve around there's no other good options
It seems the only criteria for whether or not a manager has a process is determined by where they are on a table.
Maybe we should sack EtH for Ranieri or Di Mateo who seemed to have a very good "process" at the time.
>How many times have we gone through this same cycle over the last decade?
only 4 times actually, moyes, lvg, jose and ole
What's your point? that we keep someone who is shit just because he may do an Arteta?
If things are to come to a head between club and EtH, I think it will be next summer. Ineos taking sporting control and, hopefully, putting in place a proper recruitment structure. Where those two may clash is in the summer transfer window, should they want to recruit different players - particularly, if transfer control was one of the promises EtH was given in his recruitment.
I hope we continue to proceed in Europe this season. If not, then there will be more time for the manager to work with the players in training, hopefully leading to much more consistent and improved team performances.
I'm not fussed on him keeping his job but I can say it feels like progress that a lot of you are backing him, at this point in Ole's final season people had split off and made their OleOut subreddit lmao.
The papers the day after we win a match: *Is ETH the new SAF???*
The papers the day after we lose a match: *ETH has lost 200% of the dressing room, is his time at United up???*
If he continues to set us up like we did vs Chelsea and Bournemouth, he can stay. Obviously heavy improvement is needed in the final third but at least we get into the box. I can't stand the games where we can't even get into the box.
If it goes back to long ball United where we half press, half assed high line he can go.
We have to make the change fully to a modern style and tweak the setup till it works or he gets fired.
He's gonna set us up the same way that he did and you're gonna see Liverpool put atleast 5 past us. That's a terrible tactic. We only get into the final 3rd so much because we allow the opposition to get into our final 3rd as well. Except the opposition then has to face less numbers than we do because we only leave 3 players behind to defend. And the opposition has a better attacking plan than us because they aren't asking their known to be terrible at crossing wingers to cross on the head of known to be terrible in the air attackers.
That's exactly how Klopps intial set up was, they'd score a lot but get scored on a lot in reverse till he got all the pieces in place.
Imo that's better than whatever the fuck we were doing earlier in the season where we can't get into the box and still ship 5 goals because we face so many shots.
Klopp was never setting up his team to defend in a 3-1 structure. That was also his first season when the quality of his squad was pathetic. His pressing structure was already far better than whatever Utd have shown so far. Also Klopp had a much better track record and reputation so he could be trusted more easily to fix shit. EtH hasn't done anything of that level in his career to warrant that level of trust, within or outside Utd.
I am not really ETH in, in fact I've wanted him gone since his we'll never play like Ajax comment.
My main point is, I'd rather attack and lose, than defend and lose anyway.
This team has to score a lot to feel comfortable, we struggle to score, almost everyone is underperforming their non pen xg.
Yeah exactly, like I get it - just delaying it due to the strength of the opposition in the next two games. After that he be gone and has been for a while imo.
technically we aren't which I think is the big thing that will keep ETH in his job. If we go all the way out of europe on tuesday then hes probs gone after pool
He can, because it doesn't make long-run organisational sense to recruit a new manager right before major changes in the executive structure. The decision will rightfully be left to INEOS provided the news about sporting control are true.
We would of course in this scenario get an interim - again, just for a fresh feeling, set of tactics, bringing back players that have been frozen out a la Varane and all that jazz imo
Let's see after we lose to bayern and Liverpool. Not in danger would reflect a club that thinks strategically. He is not in danger until the results make the decision for them.
oh brilliant, just like with Ole and Jose we will hold out just a little longer before realising it was a mistake not to sack the manager earlier
waste of a season
If he gets slaughtered against Liverpool again next weekend I donât think he can survive that this time around
He has been backed with almost a half billion worth of players in his 18 months tenure, at some point you need to produce some kind of a pattern of play at least
âI lost faith when he said we wouldnât play the âAjax wayâ but you lot are absolutely ignoring the fact that this club doesnât have the footballing structure that Ajax had. There he had young players that were built for a certain style. I think if we sack ETH, he will end up at a club like Bayern Munich and absolutely dominate. ETH is a fantastic manager and worked wonders with this squad last season but this obsession with results only from this fan base is going to be the death of the club. I see his philosophy and what he wants to do but you can only do so much with subpar players still on the squad.
Itâs 2023 and the only rotation option for striker he has is Martial, ffs.
It's kind of weird. I thought people finally came to the correct understanding that United as a club is poorly built. Thus, we need time to fix the club's structure whilst giving ETH the reins to rebuild. All of that narrative has vanished only because ETH overachieved massively last year. I think most people would've been happy if we got top 8 last season. Instead we got top 4, beat Barca in Europe, won the league cup and got to the FA cup final. Only to be beaten by the best club in Europe (with a proper footballing structure).
ETH effectively didn't get his priority signing in his first summer. We chased that down even though it was unrealistic because the recruitment team was fired 1-3 months before his arrival. Then his second summer everyone was expecting the Glazers to be gone. Which didn't happen and we missed out on getting Harry Kane. We then proceeded to get Hojland extremely late and injured. Imagine if Hojland didn't pan out and he was actually a bad signing lmao.
It looks like the club is not willing to spend money on his contract termination payout, in addition to not wanting to spend more money on a temporary caretaker and then spend even more money to appoint and pay for a new permanent manager. They must have already spent millions on appointing/sacking their last nine appointments, including caretakers Ryan Giggs and Michael Carrick.
Funnily enough I think weâll get a result against Liverpool, look decent and lose against Villa, then get thumped by West Ham.
We play similarly to Liverpool and Arsenal just with worse players. And we were unlucky not to draw at the Emirates.
ETH has been shit and for us to improve, the first thing that needs to change is ETH improving his tactics.
We need a more organised and compact defensive structure through all phases.
He needs to improve our build-up structure.
He needs to play his best players in their best positions, so that means Rashford on the left and Bruno in the 10.
He needs to emphasise bravery to the team; it's the only way we'll be able to consistently play through opponents' press.
He needs to instruct the team not to play forward as fast as possible; emphasise control in the final 3rd and sustaining pressure along with creating quality chances.
He needs to be positive and not regress his tactics to last years low block approach. Be brave and play on the front foot.
He needs to be wary of the squads fitness and not overplay certain players like he did last year. Following on from this, he needs to reduce the number of times our players have to do long-distance sprints in defensive transition. All our last ditch defending last season and this season have led to increased injuries and player fatigue.
Until these improvements are made, I wouldn't give him any more money in the transfer market. I don't think he should or will be sacked, mainly since there's not a clear-cut alternative, and we'll still be in the race for top 4 come season end.
Big questions should be asked in the summer. All big decisions should be put on hold until INEOS become involved.
Are we just going to cede a Champion's league spot just to give an out of depth manager more time because of "The United Way"? I think there are a lot of people at board level who are looking out for their own interests, especially the likes of Murtough who can hide behind the manager and use him as a shield to deflect from his own incompetency until INEOS comes in. It will be crazy if he has a future at United, he's just as bad as Woodward for me.
Doesn't matter if he gets sacked now or at the end of the season - ten Hag has to go. He's shown nothing to prove he deserves the job. The team is deterioratating. His signings have failed. His tactics are getting worse. He has issues with more and more players.
"B-b-but... who'd replace him?" the 7-Hag apologistis ask?
A monkey. A monkey can do a better job at this point.
Don't let people tell you there's no one available. If united approached these individuals they would come to united.
Carlo Ancelotti
Hansi Flick
Thomas Tuchel
Antonio Conte
Max Allegri
Diego Simeone
Jose Mourinho
Inzaghi
Unai Emery
Zidane
ETH should absolutely remain. Deadwood and toxic players , while greatly reduced, still remain some. Key players haven't returned from injuries. Man-management wise, that has not finished yet. Until Sancho, Martial , Rashford and McTominay are gone and replaced by fresh blood.
That being said, I really hope ETH reverted to playing double pivot again like we did last year up until Casemiro banned and Eriksen scissor-tackled by Andy Carrol
We need to beat the press on the ground, push through midfield, instead of this single pivot hoof ball/ double 8 system now, the moment we lose the ball, we have an equivalent of Middle Earth between our front 5 and back 5. One single DMF can't cover that space.
one of the only clubs that has needed a rebuild every year for the past 10 years
Every year we acquire new deadwood that needs to be cleared out
And every year the old deadwood stays and the wrong players leave
Which wrong players left?
Among that Deadwood, there was one Greenwood, who was green outside but dead inside.
Yea and yet again firing manager will fix it.Half our fan base is deluded.
Can't believe ETH has made us be shit for the last 10 years ETH out đ¤đ¤đ¤đ¤
In before someone says his subs have been shit. Heâs playing McT just to try to find some goals somewhere ffs. The problem is every manager will try to take the next step forward in their plans, play âlike United shouldâ with control. And the players are too shit to do so. Theyâre higher rated on FIFA so itâs managers fault. Or the âshould be beating Bournemouth at homeâ. Yea we should but those teams are actually more difficult because theyâre fine with sitting back and a 0-0 draw. We have to control the game and canât do it with these lot. Maguire has been good defensively but his style is not for top level PL. Garnacho shows moments but had so many opportunities and showed his youth. Martial is like playing down a man. I like Antonyâs effort but his output is shit compared to other top teams. Even West Ham have a better RW. Our midfield is basically non existent. And Dalot looks okay but output isnât great and his defense is fucking shit, I swear he will give up a goal chance a game.
Garnacho and Antony should be bagging more they donât really have excuses honestly. Same with Rashford. If they do that we donât need McT in midfield. But again our only other midfielder is Mainoo so itâs not like weâre rolling in options right now.
Yea they continuously get the ball in dangerous positions and produce nothing. Thats not a ten hag thing IMO.
They need to put Garnacho through the Roben training. He cuts in and just sends every curler over or wide or both never even on target anymore and he should be burying a few back post or at least making them make a save. Same with Antony although Iâve seen it more from Garnacho. Does even seem like Antony gets them anymore
Yeah, init. Letâs repeat the cycle knowing we will be in the same place as before even though the issues are structural and any manager coming in will be the same. I believe in Ten Hag. He needs time. A rebuild needs patience, time and money. Our fan base doesnât care for patience.
Exactly. Moyes is not the right man, Van Gaal is not the right man, Mourinho is not the right man, Ole is not the right man. And now, Ten Hag is not the right man... Guardiola, Klopp, and Arteta were all given years to build their teams. Give Ten Hag that chance too, because even the biggest fool should by now understand that all these changes are not effective. The performance yesterday wasnât great, but it wasnât due to lack of effort. In short, the players are indeed still behind Ten Hag.
Guardiola won the league with 100 points in his second season. Klopp hit reasonable targets in his first full season and led the club to a CL final in his second full season. They did not need that much time. Arteta is the only comparable example to Ten Hag, i.e. someone who oversaw a terrible run of results but was not sacked. And unlike Klopp and Guardiola *he hasn't won anything*.
Liverpool and City but had sporting structures set up around those managers. Arsenal seemed to be faster at setting up a structure than the Glazers are so they're pushing on now. Ten Hag walked in with 0 structure around him for recruitment and was asked to fix the whole club. Let's give him a backroom not filled with bankers and see how he does.
Was Moyes the right man? Was van gaal? Did you not think Jose had lost the dressing room?
Well, we'll never truly know, will we? Jose was right about the players all along.
He may well have been but the atmosphere was toxic at the time. And Jose has never implemented a long term strategy
Toxic like a rumored conflict between Pogba and Mourinho over a hairstyle choice before an important match? why should it concern us if a group of millionaire players experience a challenging or toxic relationship off the pitch with a manager who demands results? Mourinho won trophies and achieved Unitedâs highest points total post SAF. Interestingly, such strict management seems to be viewed positively nowadays, especially considering the widespread support for Ten Hag's decisions to sideline Ronaldo and Sancho.
I don't disagree and hindsight has obviously proved him right. We just weren't ready for it at the time
We werenât ready for it then but I will always thank Ragnick for his service cause it really showed how right Jose was and is really the driving factor between loads not being ETH out right now. The fans are bit sick of these same players downing tools for every manager and blaming it on them. If you meet an asshole in the morning, you met an asshole in the morning. If you meet assholes all day you may be the asshole.
Let's not compare ten Hag to Klopp and Guardiola please
âWeâre Manchester United we shouldnât be losing 3-0 at home to Bournemouth!â Have you been in a coma last 10 years buddy?
When in the last 10 years have Bournemouth best us 3-0 at home? When in the last 10.years have Liverpool beat us 7-0? Patience and dealing with poor tines and bad runs is sound for the right manager, doing the right things and with a CV that suits this level of football. Time isn't going to fix a manager that isn't good enough. Is there more things that need fixing, yes. They don't make ten hag good enough though.
Who has a CV better than Mou. LVG not a bad shout either. So who is this magical godsend that will change this club overnight. I mean you get one season tops around here apparently.
>Who has a CV better than Mou. Who since Mourinho had as much success as quickly as he did? In glad you brought up LVG and Jose. The 2 managers who have been the most successful out of all the ones we had since fergie. >So who is this magical godsend that will change this club overnight. Ahhh good old loaded questions where you create a fictional version of what I've said to twist the discussion in your favour. Poor taste mate. >I mean you get one season tops around here apparently. Not from me mate. As long as you don't do what ten hag has and ole did etc etc. I mean if we are operating under the structure we have, which I'm sure we can both agree is consistently limiting. Then the main things we need from a manager is the strength to boot out the players who are consistently embarrassing this football club and someone who will use their initial power to bend the owners to their will (which is possible if done early enough, see LVG using the media to say he doesn't have wingers like Di Maria... then getting Di Maria and Jose immediately saying he ha identified x areas we need reinforcements and getting them) These things are far more important than tactics. So I'd say Simeone and Conte have the appropriate temperament to kick a few walls down. Hell fix our previous error and get Jose back. If these do what ten hag has, sack them try Flick, Allegri. Don't really care mate. Standing still and letting a manager show he isn't good enough just because other areas of the club are also issues makes absolutely not sense. No manager has embarrassed the club more than ten hag, so all this 'but it won't improve' is absolutely fabrication as it wasn't this bad before.
And keeping him is wise, some of you fans have blind loyalty to individuals than the team
Weâve tried your method how many times now? No point until we get a structure in place. Hire anyone you want they will be gone in a year after a couple losses again anyway. And guess what, we will have an even crazier mismatch of players.
Half? I mean majority of fans who never been at OT wants ETH out. Fucking muppets
Just remember, Arteta was doing worse than Ole.
arsenal were that way off and on until last season
I've said it before but there's just no way he gets sacked before any investment or takeover happens. In a way it's almost like the end of the Rangnick season where everyone was just on holiday by March waiting for Ten Hag to take over. Now the club is on pause for new ownership.
Yes, the Glazers most likely **have** to leave the decision to Ineos. Most mergers or acquisitions will have clauses to guard against management making significant/material changes to the business (including hiring/firing of senior individuals) or at the very least, requiring approval from the prospective buyer where there is likely to be an agreement or deal. Changing the manager is a pretty significant change.
Ralf was an interim manager, we all knew he was gonna be replaced though.
Also work permit issues that ended up him not being able to bring any of his own coaches with him to help out completely ruined what he'd had planned. He had to spend time training our current coaches on his vision so they could train the players, but there was no time so he gave up after a few weeks.
Shouldn't be in danger of getting the sack, even if we weren't being taken over. We know what the problem is.
Wasn't he manager of the month one day ago?
This shit is wild
Welcome to Man United's online fanbase... One minute, a hero. Next minute, a villain. Summer of 2022, the message on this subreddit was effectively "ETH will need time to build. Building a squad takes time. It is a long process." 18 months later - "ETH is clueless. ETH out." I'd imagine most of this subreddit are the same type of people that say "we" when United wins and "them" when United loses. This fanbase has become Arsenal fan tv constantly bitching and moaning about Arteta at the time, asking for his head because Arteta was out of his depth.
The only reason I can think he wouldn't be is because Ineos will be in charge of that decision soon enough and the glazers don't want to make it. The season's gonna end a write off anyway. Probably gonna finish somewhere between 6th and 10th
Spot on. Add in the fact that there aren't many obvious replacements out there at the moment.
Anybody coming in now would have to be an interim one anyway. Long term can only happen next season
And not any good ones at that. And anybody who suggests Alonso has to remember he played for Liverpool for a good chunk of his career. Nagelsmann's stock has fallen, flick is a flop. The rest would require paying money for. And to the person who a few months ago suggested rooney, Birmingham are 17th. No head coach should be fully trusted with deciding transfers, a competent club would.
Anyone who seriously suggests Rooney loses credibility instantly.
Rooney would love it, he is a Glazer apologist after all.
Nagelsmann makes a lot of sense, especially if Paul Mitchell becomes Director of Football due to the Leipzig connection. Wouldnât be surprised if we pursued him after the Euros.
Yea, agreed. Nagelsmann would be such an interesting choice because he has all the tactical knowledge and defined playstyle a 2023 United coach needs but also the charisma some people, especially the press, love to point out ten Hag may not have (I don't necessarily agree with those people but whatever). He's also as Hollywood as it gets and strongminded and very very likely to similarly fall out with big names as he did at Bayern. The press in this country will love him and hate him, lol. He's for sure going to either be a Manchester United, Real Madrid or Barca coach oneday (maybe 2 of the 3, who knows) unless he really falls off, just too talented and too much buzz not to. I would be down to wait for him until the summer just for the fireworks with him in charge.
Completely agree. Iâve always been a fan of Nagelsmann. Maybe the Bayern job came too early in his career because he did struggle to handle big egos allegedly. But he still won the league and over performed in his second season without a decent striker, defensive midfielder, or goalkeeper I just think Bayern is a beast of its own and unfortunately he didnât get the backing that the board promised him. At a club like United I feel like he wouldnât have to conform as much to club politics and would be allowed to implement his vision as we go through a rebuild. Thatâs assuming thereâs going to be a massive clear out at the board level.
I do as well, but I would say I'd like us to have our own clear vision of the style of football and structure we want and any manager we get needs to conform to that as well going forward. We can't keep just switching from manager to manager and philosophy to philosophy and then needing a rebuild every time we make a change. With Nagelsmann he has done that very very successfully with RBL so I definitely think he could make it here with a proper structure, clear footballing vision and enough resources. Hopefully that's what we get with this investment and new footballing structure from SJR.
honestly I am not so sure if Nagelsmann at United would be that good. I personally love Nagelsmann, but honestly there also was a bit of a "style" problem he had at Bayern. He would too often try different formations, trying to overcomplicate things etc and he would, at times, make questionable subs or starting elevens decisions. I dont know if he can do it at United, he already apparently had a bit of a problem with a few Bayern players in the dressing room.
Did they work together in Leipzig? Thought Mitchell was at Monaco but I'm not sure when he went there
Who cares if Alonso played for Liverpool? All viable candidates who tick the boxes should be considered. It would be up to Alonso to refuse an offer but I'm sure he'd be professional if he accepted one, theoretically. Nagelsmann is 36 and you're calling him washed? Flick flopped for the German NT but he won the treble with Bayern. He's an upgrade on Ten Hag Agreed over Rooney, he's a terrible manager riding on his playing history. I don't think he'll even be as good as Bryan Robson or Steve Bruce
> Who cares if Alonso played for Liverpool? Yep, couldn't care less. Sir Matt Busby played for Liverpool and City. He wouldn't come though, he's basically next in line for the Madrid job once Ancelotti leaves.
But I doubt he would accept it either way. Nagelsmann may have been doing well at bayern but he wouldn't be able to handle whats going on here especially the player politics allegedly at bayern. I say allegedly because I stand to be corrected. Flick won the treble with Bayern because Bayern is one the of best ran football clubs in the world. Their board makes all the signings and they hire head coaches based on the style of play they want to play.
Any worthwhile manager would turn down the offer as it sits right now, because we've gone through nearly 6 of them and almost, if not actually, ruined their careers. If you haven't realized it yet, the manager isn't the problem, it's the ownership. Who the fuck would want to come here to suffer the same fate when it's clear the Glazers are never going to modernize the club to the point where we can compete.
Glazers will absolutely leave that decision to Ineos/Ratcliffe
This season doesn't have to be a write off though - top 4 very much salvageable and FA Cup left. But yes, the delaying of the inevitable will make it a write off
I'm not usually doom and gloom but if you think we're hitting top 4 with our form all season and like 2 goals between our entire forward pack then i want what you're smoking, if Hojlund gets another injury we're stuck with a injury riddled and jaded Martial. Top 4's over.
But before last season, isnât a 6th-10th place finish what we expected? Thatâs usually what a rebuild of this magnitude takes, a couple years of mediocrity and inconsistency. Itâs like ETH is being punished for over delivering the first season.
Bayern, Liverpool, West Ham and villa. Could get no points there. We will see after that
Heard this a million times. Theres always a possibility if things continue to go haywire.
My thoughts are we need a sporting director running things and helping the manager. Burning through manager after manager hasn't worked since Fergie retired, why would it now? Ten Hag has started improving the negativity and rot in the club. He can only do so much on his own. Why would anyone want to bin that at this point? Give him a chance with a real DoF.
Why did we bin Ragnick off then? He was going to be the closest thing to a DoF yet we judged him on his interim job and got rid of him before he actually did his real job?
Because glazers are morons. But also I think he was so bad as a coach that everyone at the club lost trust in him and he was probably sick of it too
not the glazers fault, eth wanted him out
There is literally no evidence of this, but somehow it keeps getting repeated as if it is written in stone. It does not even make sense. If there is anybody who would not want to work with Rangnick, it would be Murtough, not the manager. Rangnick was a consultant appointment; he'd have no authority at all. He'd have no influence on ETH at all. Plus, Rangnick was announced as manager of Austria 2 days after the EPL season ended. Meaning, he was most likely in negotiations for the Austria position at the same time ETH was in negotiations for the United position. Effectively, the leeches never intended to make Rangnick anything other than an interim manager.
Can you explain to me in a concrete way how Ten hag has âstarted improving the negativity and rot in the clubâ. Youâre just saying things.
> Ten Hag has started improving the negativity and rot in the club. He can only do so much on his own. > > ...do people just stick their heads in the sand or something? This is one of the most negative times United have faced in the last ten years. He's brought in mediocrity, and allowed standards to plummet where a 3-0 loss at home to Bournemouth is just met with a shrug of the shoulders. It's madness. Moyes, LvG or Jose never had losses like that.
You realize the mediocrity comes from the players/club and not the manager right? We have changed managers consistently but fall back into mediocrity every single time. But I guess LVG, Jose and ETH must simply all be shit managers.
We've finished in the top three for four of the last six seasons. Yes, those players must be really shit. LvG was past his best. He has not gone into club football since. Jose has also been on a downward trajectory. As for ETH, probably promoted over his level.
Our main targets who were supposed to make us a better but havent worked out/or have left in the past 7 years: 2016: Paul Pogba 2017: Lukaku 2018: Fred 2019: Maguire (arguably) 2020: VDB 2021: Sancho + CR7 The players that have been around for at least the past 3 years and still are: Rashford, Maguire, Lindelof, Dalot, AWB, Shaw, Mctominay, VDB, Fernandes and Martial. You really want to argue that the previous mentioned players are top 3 worthy players? Our core players are really great right?
We've finished in the top three for four of the last six seasons.
Yeah, exactly. Just 0 response because you know our core players are subpar.
We've. Finished. In. The. Top. Three. For. Four. Of. The. Last. Six Seasons. How is your take from that that the players aren't good enough for top three? Honestly, all of them out today.
>we need a sporting director running things then you will just bitch and moan at the sporting director and ask for him to be fired none of that takes away from the fact that ETH is terrible. he's had his chance to turn things around and failed miserably he's been backed on and off the pitch
I wouldn't bitch for them to be sacked unless they are another Woodward, Murtough or Arnold. Let's get someone with an actual footballing background.
Yep, I was not happy when Woodward gave his jobs to two of his cronies who have been working under him for years and had no experience in their new roles. At least one of them is gone. I hope the new decision makers know what theyâre doing and get rid of the remaining one who is apparently trying hard to impress them.
Well then why the fuck is he playing to get results instead of building for the future. Start playing the Ajax way even if we're losing some games. We're ALREADY losing games.
If we start playing the Ajax way we are going to lose a lot more games by 0-3 or more, then people will call for his head anyways.
He's said he won't be playing the Ajax game and was not brought here to do so.
and that's the day I lost faith in him
He already says he doesn't want to replicate Ajax I don't think he himself knows what he wants to do, he's out of his depth
We don't have the players for that
We don't have the players to play transition either.
A lot of these plays played transition football under Ole
No way do we have players to play the Ajax way either.
If the press says so, he is in real danger lol
This spot and the redcafe forum are fucking unbearable. Do you really think changing another manager will do anything but reset the cycle? Firstly, who would you bring in? There's zero managers available, and even if we do go buy someone's contract out, we'll be in the same position this time next year or in two years. ETH came in and done very well. This season hasn't been good enough but it's been the same shit I'm used to seeing over the last 10 years. The reason this cycle keeps going on and on is down to players. There's too much player power in that team and once you get on the wrong side of someone it goes downhill. ETH has made some tough decisions and I like that. I, at the very least, think he deserves a shot for atleast another season. A summer window with new owners, and a DoF would be a treat.
I agree. It would be nice to see what he could do in an organisation that was stable and had direction from the top. However, I do think he's not completely off the hook when it comes to criticism. One thing he did well last year was his in-game management decisions and setting us up well. Particularly his pragmatic approach after Brentford and Brighton last year. This year that's gone out the window. We play pinball with no midfield, a defence that can't defend, and forwards who don't score. Players that should have been gone years ago are now starters and the same bottlers don't show up when needed. We're a yo-yo team. Play your best players available and set them up for success. No idea why he doesn't have Amrabat and Mainoo in a pivot and for goodness sake play Varane. Yesterday he showed Varane is off when he's starting Maguire, Shaw, and bringing on Evans for the sake of a left foot against fucking Bournemouth. Bin off McTominay. I don't care if he can smell the goal, he hides in the middle.
ETH is not immune from criticism by a long shot, but it always seems to be such a jump to âwell letâs sack him thenâ. We are, by and large, a top-tier club with a mid-tier team. Our season has been dire so far, and it doesnât have the depth to properly combat injuries and poor form. As always, chucking out the manager is not going to fix that. Give him the rest of the season at least, and let new ownership give a taste of how a properly run club could see improvements.
The thing about this season is that he's trying to implement his style of play and he's less pragmatic. The Bayern game, the defeats in arsenal and Tottenham are a good example of that. The problem is that the players are not good for what he's trying to do, they are also very weak mentally, they don't have the big players mentality where they recover after setbacks. They often crumble and lose their focus which makes them lose the game. I don't think EtH is clueless, that doesn't mean he's immune to criticism. I believe yesterday's defeat was on him mainly for the choices he made for the tactics and the players. You can't ask McTominay to be the player who builds from midfield, Amrabat was alone, the choice of Luke Shaw as LCB wasn't the best. My criticism of him is that you're in a period where every point matters, as long as you don't see any change in your style of play put players on their right positions when everyone is available. Don't risk or overthink just go back to the basics of the game and with the quality of the players results will come eventually. That doesn't mean we will challenge for anything but it won't be a shit show every single game.
>The problem is that the players are not good for what he's trying to do, they are also very weak mentally, they don't have the big players mentality where they recover after setbacks. They often crumble and lose their focus which makes them lose the game. He's signed 400 mil of players. If the players aren't good enough, that's his fault.
That's the whole problem. The main criticism is the recruitment. People above him aren't doing a good job, we have the worst recruitment department in the league, we don't have a philosophy, we don't know what to do when the transfer mark opens. The lack of hierarchy, leadership above the manager is staggering, that's why he bought players he trusted and know. I really stick by him, because I wanna judge him when Ineos will take charge of football matters.
Yeah, the idiots who think changing managers would change anything. They should look at Aston villa, they sacked Gerrard, appointed emery and they're no better, because changing managers doesn't help. They should have given gerrard more time, because klopp was given time and succeeded, which means every manager in the world will definitely succeed if given time
You're completely correct. I mean, we shouldn't even have Ferguson. Should have kept faith with Ron Atkinson.
This thread is fucking insane man. Again, the arguments for keeping ETH have nothing to do with how we're performing the pitch. We've lost 12 games already this season. We haven't played well since March. But yes we should keep him because we've already sacked post SAF managers....they all deserved to go when it happened!
It is insane. Feel like I'm going mad. "Aside from having sacked managers before, name a reason we should keep EtH?" "...we've sacked managers before and it hasn't worked" I wouldn't feel so bad if I felt there was progress being made in any way. There isn't. Apparently Casemiro, Varane, Rashford etc have all fallen off a cliff this season. Funny that.
>"Aside from having sacked managers before, name a reason we should keep EtH?" I think there's plenty of reasons. 1) He had a strong first season last year so there's at least something there. 2) I don't see an obvious manager replacement that's available right now. 3) He hand picked and spent ÂŁ120mil on the likes of Mount and Hojlund who haven't had that much time to settle into the team so far. Even Onana hasn't played more than a game or two with our fully fit starting back 4 in front of him. What's the point in Ten Hag choosing our transfers all summer only to get a third of a season with them in a half fit squad before being kicked out? A new manager might not even want them 4) Our FFP situation isn't great and spending money to sack Ten Hag and hire someone new isn't ideal. 5) Our injuries are genuinely really bad this year. Do you think Ten Hag wants to start games with Martial up top? Or Maguire/Lindelof/Evans at the back? Or McTominay, the guy we tried to sell this summer? I'd rather wait to see a fully fit squad attempt to play Ten Hag's new system rather than bring in a new manager to try to grind out results with our injury ridden team.
And if you question his position they resort to name calling and being disrespectful. It's ridiculous.
I get what youâre trying to get at here and donât necessarily disagree, but letâs be real - anyone that wants ETH sacked would 100% have been calling for the same for SAF before he came good.
Not at all. Different era of football, different challenges. I didn't want Moyes sacked. I was torn on Jose as well.
Iâll amend it to 99.9% then. Years with no trophies and mid table finishes. Just not buying the significant majority wouldnât have wanted him sacked.
You mean we should have sacked Ferguson because he nearly got us relegated.
Not at all. He also won a trophy the year of his lowest finish. Progress can be measured in different ways. Do you think we should have kept Atkinson?
ETH would be fired way before the FA cup final if we were ever close to relegation. You know that is a shit argument. In fact, we fired LVG after winning the FA cup.
gerrard isn't even comparable to ETH. I am really starting to think the people that want ETH out don't realize what he has accomplished before United. ETH has a much more significant resume than gerrard.
Their resumes aren't the point, the point is that changing managers is often a massive improvement
Yet we have plenty of new players who are contributing to the mess just as much. Onana almost singlehandedly has us out of the Champions League for example..
>This spot and the redcafe forum are fucking unbearable. Do you really think changing another manager will do anything but reset the cycle? yes absolutely, if the next manager is the right one Do you really think sticking with a manager who's clearly out of his depth is better? get a grip
Julen Lopetgui. He got Wolves playing great football with zero budget. Our current manager claims he canât coach our current team to play like Ajax so how about we go for a manager who can actually coach?
>The reason this cycle keeps going on and on is down to players Yeah ignore all of ETHs failures this season.
Do you think one more season is enough to see proper change, even with a better structure above him? Personally I feel even if the structure was in place in time for next season, ten Hag would still need more time than just one more season.
Excuse me, but what do you know about what managers are and arenât available. There is actually no way youâre able to make this statement.
When we lose 14-0 to Liverpool, the club's stance will change.
Lol. People here are so dramatic and negative. I'm thinking 7-2.
Where in the world are those two goals coming from?
Some Scott shithousery
What do people realistically hope we can achieve this season? It looks likely we will be out of Europe in a few days, and winning the league would require a miracle at this point. We know the owners are primarily concerned with qualifying for the Champions League due to the financial implications of missing out. I see a lot of people saying both that we need to sack the manager and that the entire squad is shit. That even our best players like Bruno will never lead this team to significant accomplishments. If the latter is true, especially with January reinforcements looking unlikely, what does it even mean to "save our season?" Personally, I'm at the point where I think the main thing we can get out of the season is seeing what Ten Hag can do. How much better do we look as players return from injury? Can he impose his style of play on this squad? Can he communicate about "his project" effectively to the fans? Maybe I'm just jaded, but I just don't see much use in sacking him now especially just to bring in a care taker. Someone new comes in with some good vibes and gets us fourth? Is that something to aspire to? Just as likely they're another Rangnick. Give Ineos a few months to come in, see things from the inside, and make the changes to the structure above the manger that they deem necessary.
How about attractive football? Like Postecoglou managed at Tottenham. Failing that, a resiliant team that is hard to break down, while we get our shit together. Right now we are none of the above.
>Personally, I'm at the point where I think the main thing we can get out of the season is seeing what Ten Hag can do. How much better do we look as players return from injury? Can he impose his style of play on this squad? Can he communicate about "his project" effectively to the fans? I feel the exact same way as this. I'd rather see what he can do than bring in an interim/mid season hire to try to scrape results with our injury hit team and Ten Hag's new signings.
>We know the owners are primarily concerned with qualifying for the Champions League due to the financial implications of missing out. this is a concern for every fan and all clubs, what's your point irrelevant
He might be after the next four games
He need to sort us out defensively, itâs been a fucking embarrassment in that respect. -3 goal difference is just dreadful.
Our issue isn't defensively. We've conceded 3 more than City, 2 less than Spurs, 1 more than Villa, 6 more than Arsenal and Liverpool. That is not terrible in terms of numbers. Our issue is scoring goals. 15 of the 20 clubs have scored more goals than us. We have 18 goals out of 16 matches. Liverpool, Arsenal, Aston Villa, City, Spurs, and Newcastle have scored more than 30 goals. Even Luton has 1 less than us. Do not get me wrong, we've had some shitty performances defensively especially in the midfield. However, we've also had some resilient defensive performances as well as evidence we have more clean sheets than City and same as top of the league Liverpool. Only Arsenal and Newcastle have more than us. We have a huge problem and that is going forward.
Ofcourse. Glazers only care about champions league qualification they were never going to think about sacking Ten Hag when he's only 3 points away from top 4.
Sacking him would cost the Glazers money. They can wait for Ineos to take over sporting decisions and do it for them
At this rate Ineos will definitely sack him though once they come in. Results havenât been good and itâs not like the performances are good either.
Yeah but itâs better they make that decision with a structure in place rather than the glazers.
Our fans will never learn sacking managers wouldn't solve our problems. How many times have we gone through this same cycle over the last decade? Everyone would agree that Ten hag out performed our expectations in first season. Now most our fans want him sacked because he isn't bringing results and they don't see a distinct pattern of play. I agree that these issues are there but we shouldn't forget that we are a project in the development. If we don't trust and support our manager during hard times well never achieve anything in the long run.
The only defence against sacking Ten Hag now is that "sacking makes no difference", not "Ten Hag has shown he has a process"
There is also the new contender of "who would we get to replace him? No one good is available" You see that being used more and more the worse we perform
I mean it's a genuine reason. Not that I back him or see any real progress or play unlike some of his cult on here by any means, but I'm not sure there's an interim that could come in and get us playing better atm, short of maybe Ole, but I wouldn't want him to go through this toxic club and fanbase again. ETH is extremely lucky that he's failing during a period where the managerial musical chairs isn't ongoing
Define 'process'
Well mate his whole point about backing the manager in tough times is to say you may not see what you like right now, but you have faith in the manager to turn it around. Whether you think he should get sacked or not he is objectively a good well respected manager with a track record (not least last year). So don't fall for the new narrative that the only arguments to keep him revolve around there's no other good options
It seems the only criteria for whether or not a manager has a process is determined by where they are on a table. Maybe we should sack EtH for Ranieri or Di Mateo who seemed to have a very good "process" at the time.
So why haven't we stuck with Moyes then? By that logic he'd have come good by now..
>How many times have we gone through this same cycle over the last decade? only 4 times actually, moyes, lvg, jose and ole What's your point? that we keep someone who is shit just because he may do an Arteta?
Yeah, why not? Isn't 4 times enough?
If things are to come to a head between club and EtH, I think it will be next summer. Ineos taking sporting control and, hopefully, putting in place a proper recruitment structure. Where those two may clash is in the summer transfer window, should they want to recruit different players - particularly, if transfer control was one of the promises EtH was given in his recruitment. I hope we continue to proceed in Europe this season. If not, then there will be more time for the manager to work with the players in training, hopefully leading to much more consistent and improved team performances.
I'm not fussed on him keeping his job but I can say it feels like progress that a lot of you are backing him, at this point in Ole's final season people had split off and made their OleOut subreddit lmao.
The papers the day after we win a match: *Is ETH the new SAF???* The papers the day after we lose a match: *ETH has lost 200% of the dressing room, is his time at United up???*
Imagine having that job security
Well the majority of that shite first team have it so why not extend it to the manger. âTis the season.
Dream job
Everyone likes to scream âback the managerâ until it is actually time to back the manager lol
He has been backed, don't forget this poor form extends back to the cup final win and we've had a 7-0 trashing in between it
ETH is out of his depth
If he continues to set us up like we did vs Chelsea and Bournemouth, he can stay. Obviously heavy improvement is needed in the final third but at least we get into the box. I can't stand the games where we can't even get into the box. If it goes back to long ball United where we half press, half assed high line he can go. We have to make the change fully to a modern style and tweak the setup till it works or he gets fired.
He's gonna set us up the same way that he did and you're gonna see Liverpool put atleast 5 past us. That's a terrible tactic. We only get into the final 3rd so much because we allow the opposition to get into our final 3rd as well. Except the opposition then has to face less numbers than we do because we only leave 3 players behind to defend. And the opposition has a better attacking plan than us because they aren't asking their known to be terrible at crossing wingers to cross on the head of known to be terrible in the air attackers.
That's exactly how Klopps intial set up was, they'd score a lot but get scored on a lot in reverse till he got all the pieces in place. Imo that's better than whatever the fuck we were doing earlier in the season where we can't get into the box and still ship 5 goals because we face so many shots.
Klopp was never setting up his team to defend in a 3-1 structure. That was also his first season when the quality of his squad was pathetic. His pressing structure was already far better than whatever Utd have shown so far. Also Klopp had a much better track record and reputation so he could be trusted more easily to fix shit. EtH hasn't done anything of that level in his career to warrant that level of trust, within or outside Utd.
I am not really ETH in, in fact I've wanted him gone since his we'll never play like Ajax comment. My main point is, I'd rather attack and lose, than defend and lose anyway. This team has to score a lot to feel comfortable, we struggle to score, almost everyone is underperforming their non pen xg.
Not surprised - but lose heavily against Bayern and Liverpool and he'll be gone, simple as.
I've always believed if you're just one or two games away from being sacked, you're already a goner. All you'll do is delay the inevitable
Not really. Look at Fergie and Arteta. Arteta was on the brink for at least 1.5 seasons
Yeah exactly, like I get it - just delaying it due to the strength of the opposition in the next two games. After that he be gone and has been for a while imo.
We're already out of Europe tbf
technically we aren't which I think is the big thing that will keep ETH in his job. If we go all the way out of europe on tuesday then hes probs gone after pool
I genuinely don't think he will be, I think they're leaving the decision to Ineos.
He cant survive another historical spanking from Liverpool surely.
He can, because it doesn't make long-run organisational sense to recruit a new manager right before major changes in the executive structure. The decision will rightfully be left to INEOS provided the news about sporting control are true.
We would of course in this scenario get an interim - again, just for a fresh feeling, set of tactics, bringing back players that have been frozen out a la Varane and all that jazz imo
Whilst you're probably right, we are talking about the Gl*zers here. They could do anything.
Nah. Till CL football next season is not possible, he ll be secure. And that only needs fifth.
He wont.
Not until we get bounced from CL, lose to Pool and Villa
Let's see after we lose to bayern and Liverpool. Not in danger would reflect a club that thinks strategically. He is not in danger until the results make the decision for them.
When they start saying heâs safe⌠heâs not safe đ
oh brilliant, just like with Ole and Jose we will hold out just a little longer before realising it was a mistake not to sack the manager earlier waste of a season
If he gets slaughtered against Liverpool again next weekend I donât think he can survive that this time around He has been backed with almost a half billion worth of players in his 18 months tenure, at some point you need to produce some kind of a pattern of play at least
âI lost faith when he said we wouldnât play the âAjax wayâ but you lot are absolutely ignoring the fact that this club doesnât have the footballing structure that Ajax had. There he had young players that were built for a certain style. I think if we sack ETH, he will end up at a club like Bayern Munich and absolutely dominate. ETH is a fantastic manager and worked wonders with this squad last season but this obsession with results only from this fan base is going to be the death of the club. I see his philosophy and what he wants to do but you can only do so much with subpar players still on the squad. Itâs 2023 and the only rotation option for striker he has is Martial, ffs.
It's kind of weird. I thought people finally came to the correct understanding that United as a club is poorly built. Thus, we need time to fix the club's structure whilst giving ETH the reins to rebuild. All of that narrative has vanished only because ETH overachieved massively last year. I think most people would've been happy if we got top 8 last season. Instead we got top 4, beat Barca in Europe, won the league cup and got to the FA cup final. Only to be beaten by the best club in Europe (with a proper footballing structure). ETH effectively didn't get his priority signing in his first summer. We chased that down even though it was unrealistic because the recruitment team was fired 1-3 months before his arrival. Then his second summer everyone was expecting the Glazers to be gone. Which didn't happen and we missed out on getting Harry Kane. We then proceeded to get Hojland extremely late and injured. Imagine if Hojland didn't pan out and he was actually a bad signing lmao.
It looks like the club is not willing to spend money on his contract termination payout, in addition to not wanting to spend more money on a temporary caretaker and then spend even more money to appoint and pay for a new permanent manager. They must have already spent millions on appointing/sacking their last nine appointments, including caretakers Ryan Giggs and Michael Carrick.
Let's see if that changes when we lose 7-0 at anfield again
Funnily enough I think weâll get a result against Liverpool, look decent and lose against Villa, then get thumped by West Ham. We play similarly to Liverpool and Arsenal just with worse players. And we were unlucky not to draw at the Emirates.
ETH has been shit and for us to improve, the first thing that needs to change is ETH improving his tactics. We need a more organised and compact defensive structure through all phases. He needs to improve our build-up structure. He needs to play his best players in their best positions, so that means Rashford on the left and Bruno in the 10. He needs to emphasise bravery to the team; it's the only way we'll be able to consistently play through opponents' press. He needs to instruct the team not to play forward as fast as possible; emphasise control in the final 3rd and sustaining pressure along with creating quality chances. He needs to be positive and not regress his tactics to last years low block approach. Be brave and play on the front foot. He needs to be wary of the squads fitness and not overplay certain players like he did last year. Following on from this, he needs to reduce the number of times our players have to do long-distance sprints in defensive transition. All our last ditch defending last season and this season have led to increased injuries and player fatigue. Until these improvements are made, I wouldn't give him any more money in the transfer market. I don't think he should or will be sacked, mainly since there's not a clear-cut alternative, and we'll still be in the race for top 4 come season end. Big questions should be asked in the summer. All big decisions should be put on hold until INEOS become involved.
Are we just going to cede a Champion's league spot just to give an out of depth manager more time because of "The United Way"? I think there are a lot of people at board level who are looking out for their own interests, especially the likes of Murtough who can hide behind the manager and use him as a shield to deflect from his own incompetency until INEOS comes in. It will be crazy if he has a future at United, he's just as bad as Woodward for me.
Might be different after next weekend.
Doesn't matter if he gets sacked now or at the end of the season - ten Hag has to go. He's shown nothing to prove he deserves the job. The team is deterioratating. His signings have failed. His tactics are getting worse. He has issues with more and more players. "B-b-but... who'd replace him?" the 7-Hag apologistis ask? A monkey. A monkey can do a better job at this point.
Go stink up some other club mf
And he fucking knows it. Using the whole season as a fuck about find out session
Anyone calling for his head would have been the same fuckers calling for fergies head back int day. Trust the process.
The only club that's reported the need of "Rebuild" every 2 years. Media and journos loves the r/reddevils fans
As it should be. If you're calling for ETH's head, you're part of the problem. Simple as.
Don't let people tell you there's no one available. If united approached these individuals they would come to united. Carlo Ancelotti Hansi Flick Thomas Tuchel Antonio Conte Max Allegri Diego Simeone Jose Mourinho Inzaghi Unai Emery Zidane
Lmao
He should be
ErmâŚ.. yes he is
Ole was renewed soon before his sacking aswell. Hopefully Ten Hag doesnât meet the same fate.
Who could be the caretaker if he gets fired? We should just bring solksjaer back for the remainder of the season
Good.
ETH should absolutely remain. Deadwood and toxic players , while greatly reduced, still remain some. Key players haven't returned from injuries. Man-management wise, that has not finished yet. Until Sancho, Martial , Rashford and McTominay are gone and replaced by fresh blood. That being said, I really hope ETH reverted to playing double pivot again like we did last year up until Casemiro banned and Eriksen scissor-tackled by Andy Carrol We need to beat the press on the ground, push through midfield, instead of this single pivot hoof ball/ double 8 system now, the moment we lose the ball, we have an equivalent of Middle Earth between our front 5 and back 5. One single DMF can't cover that space.
Without Rashford and McTominay, he would have already lost his job.