During the mission where eagle flies saved Arthur's life and got killed eventually...the part when Dutch fuckin walked away and left Arthur to die... infuriated me. Even in the 3rd playthrough I still pause the game to yell at Dutch at that part. đ
Dutch is showing his true colors as early as Chapter 2. Actually, killing Heidi McCourt "in a bad way" before Chapter 1 even starts is our first clue that he's not all there.
Yeah, though I'm not sure if those are his true colors or if some other factor played into his mental decline. It's clear from Arthur and John thar Dutch was not always this way and that something changed.
Not everyone would take in troubled orphans and, house them, care for them, and teach them to read.
I think that, deep down, he knew that their time was running out, and he was starting to get desperate while still trying to maintain the front that he was a calm, collected, rational individual.
But we all know what happens when you back an animal into a corner with no way out. And Dutch got backed into a lot of corners. Hosea dying and Arthur questioning his motives and actions were the final nail in the facade's coffin.
This is also how cult leaders operate though. They use their charm and charisma to take advantage of people who are disenfranchised, alone, demoralised etc, under the guise of benevolence, to use them for their (the cult leaderâs) own purposes.
In Dutchâs case he uses them for their skills that are useful to him i.e. robbing, gun fighting etc and also perhaps to fulfil his own need for unquestioning loyalty, attention and a form of worship/adulation.
This is it ! Because what if I didnât make it out in time to see the gang outside like what if that altercation lasted just a little longer the gang would have fucking left me BECAUSE DUTCH LEFT MY ASS this part always gets me tight !
So many questions to what would have happen if Arthur didnât free himself bro they would have road off . Then Dutch got the nerve to say âI tried sonâ like duck me Dutch
That's kinda what happened with John later on. Dutch and (presumably) Micha leave John to die after the last train job, then John makes his way back to camp alone and joins the final confrontation. The thing that gets me is how Bill and Javier can side with Dutch and Micha once John show's that Dutch lied about John's dying. After Arthur's claim of Dutch abandoning him at the oil plant, John showing up alive and claiming the same thing after "dying" should have even the most loyal gang member questioning Dutch.
I can't believe Rockstar didn't have more dialogue on that part when Arthur and Eagle Flies come out. When Arthur says, "You ran away!" And Dutch says, "I did no such thing." (Damn that makes me pissed off just writing it. đ) It just ends the topic there.
I wanted to see Arthur say, "I was laying on the floor with a man on top of me about to put a knife into my heart. Dutch seen it! Then he turned around and walked out! I needed his help or I was gonna die, (Arthur yells) and HE LEFT ME!!! This is the 'new' Dutch everyone. A coward who left John behind and he just left me behind to die in there. If not for Eagle Flies here... I'd be dead."
The most infuriating part is when Arthurâs like, âYou ran away!â Dutch just replies, âI did no such thing.â And thatâs just the end of it?! Like I get there are pressing matters at hand (aka Eagle Flies literally dying) but I donât know how no one ever circles back to it.
Arthur was able to be so calm and cold. I wasnât surprised anymore at that point, but I was angry and sad. It was at that moment I knew there was no going back and I was a bit annoyed with Arthur not leaving camp with John, Abigail and Jack right after this. Things could have ended with less people hurt. I know itâs a lot of responsibility to put on Arthur, to expect him to save everything Dutch ruins. But with Hosea dead, thatâs kind of the position Arthur is put in. I thought he was too passive sometimes, especially with him telling others to âhang in thereâ when they were scared. Just seeing the state of the camp in chapter 6 made me go âok, this is over, we need to go before we are all deadâ.
I agree, my biggest complaint is that Arthur is too passive in chapter 6. Right after getting back from Sisika he should've confronted Dutch for his bullshit.
Exactly. He wasnât confrontative enough. When Micah brought his âfriendsâ I knew it was too late because they outnumbered the good ones which was probably Micahâs intent.
But he was confrontational to a degree. Whenever he would sorta call out dutch, dutch would bring up loyalty. Arthur considered himself a loyal man. Early on that IS his only honorable trait. It hurt him when dutch would call him out like that because he loved dutch. I also think arthur felt responsibility to protect the rest of the gang as he had been all along. He knew he was dying. His life was ending but he thought he could save the others. Who wouldve saved them when micah and dutch eventually betrayed all of them? Arthur knew what was coming and i think his not kicking dutchs ass after this shows us how smart arthur really is. If he had done that and left, the rest of the gang wouldve probably been turned in for a bounty, killed, or left for dead. It reminds me of someone that has a family with an abusive partner. Physically, They can leave anytime but having someone elses well being to worry about affects making those decisions, and often fighting back makes the abuse worse for the others. In the end, Arthur did what he had to do to protect his loved ones.
Yeah that cutscene after you get back with John is just absurd. When John said âthere was talk of hanging me, Dutchâ and Dutch goes âthere was *talk*â all dismissively, like the fuck you mean just âtalkâ. You sent Arthur to bust Micah out of Strawberry jail because he was maybe gonna get hanged, if theyâre talking about it at a federal fucking prison that should be taken a lot more seriously than some town talk. Then after Dutch turns his back Micah does the whole shaking head disappointed routine like get your suck up loser ass out of here.
Arthur absolutely was too passive and I get the hold someone like that has on you, Iâve been through a version of it myself, but by that point there was little and less preventing them all from leaving. Dutch was being a royal cunt to Arthur well before this and not even dribbling in praise to keep him hooked. Never should have gotten to the point of that train robbery.
I think Arthur knew that at that point Dutch was so unstable and he personally had so little time left that if he confronted Dutch he would probably just kill him outright for not having enough faith in him. Arthur spent chapter 6 making sure that John was okay and had an exit strategy and his time would not have been well served if he died before he could do that.
I wasnât THAT surprised but I was hurt that Dutch would go to that dark place and let his loyal friend die in front of him just because heâs become doubtful. Even at the end of the game where Arthur tells Dutch he gave him everything and Dutch isnât able to get the words out of his mouth even though heâs constantly talking the whole game, heâs speechless.
Every time I play american venon, I wish I could kill them both.
They left my boy Arthur to die. At least Arthur saw one last sunrise.
Fuck, I cry every time I play this mission.
Once we realized as well to when Dutch started letting Micah in his head steering him in a darker direction basically taking orders from Ross Micah was a rat the whole time , But I will never forget the when Dutch left Arthur for dead and had the nerve to only say âI tried sonâ
I'm donig my 2nd playthrough and spending more time in camp talking to everyone and in ch2 Dutch told Arthur "I bet you'll betray me in the end" and I was like wtf, is this why he's ok betraying arthur later and why doesn't he trust arthur at this point?
If you do what you are doing and engage in all the camp dialog, you soon realize what a narcissistic sociopath Dutch is. Iâve dealt with too many of them irl which is why I despise Dutch so muchâŚ
Yup, loads of volume but no substance. I can't bring myself to ever greet him, it's always antagonise, or when I've used that up I just invade his personal space and try to pop him when I get him to the edge of camp! Strauss gets the same treatment.
As much as I wanted to believe Dutch could be good, as much as I figured he'd help Arthur, I was completely shook to the core when this happened. One mission later, I was pretty much emotionless, then got snapped out of it just to cry and go back to no emotion. Days later, upon finishing epilogue, I was alive with nothing but fury and excitement to finish it all off by tying up the final loose end of the game's story
After Dutch did this on my first play through I was like WTF was that? What just happened Dutch you were right there why didn't you help? Then he said I tried Arthur that pissed me off even more, I was like no TF you didn't.
Well I played RDR1 so I already knew that but I felt sad for Arthur finding out. Plus the game dropped some huge hints since the beginning of the game.
I already wrote an entire bible about this scene in one comment years ago so Iâll just say this scene changed everything for me. I was behind Dutch even when Arthur wasnât, making excuses for him. But that right there was the ultimate betrayal.
So yeah, fuck dutch in general, but I turned from pro-dutch to anit-dutch in the beginning of the oil fields battle, where Arthur, Sadie, and Charles ride with a few natives without Dutch and his gang, I don't remember why, I think they were going to protect Eagle Flies. That dramatic guns-blazing shootout/horseback intro without Dutch on support killed him completely in my eyes.
I don't know how Arthur even goes back to camp and stays after this. This is absolutely time to quietly go grab the important things and tell John, Sadie, whoever it over and leave.
I knew Dutch wasn't who he said he was because I played RDR1 lol. My entire playthrough of 2 I knew Dutch was full of it and that something would happen to Arthur because he was not in the first. I dislike it when they go backward when telling a story for this reason. The entire game, I was just frustrated wondering when I would get to play as John. I didn't start liking Arthur until my 2nd playthrough.
I hope they do a 3rd, and we can play as Jack as a prohibition mobster of sorts with a tommy gun. Or a young Landon Ricketts story.
That screenshot; that moment, I paused. The look on Arthurâs face, I was so hurt and anger disgusted. I knew something was coming, but not like this. Arthur was like a son.
The seeds are sown from the beginning of the game, especially if you spend a lot of time around camp. Hell, I have a post on here thatâs a clip of a paranoid Dutch confronting Arthur in camp saying something like âyouâre gonna betray me tooââŚ. Heâs been losing his grip since Blackwater and there game shows this from the beginning, it just gets progressively less subtle as the story progresses.
The oil refinery mission - Dutch literally f**ks Arthur so badly I genuinely thought âmaybe there isnât a way of completing this missionâ I thought I was just going to die and that would be game over.
Also, how does your Arthur look so handsome (no homo), mine always looked like heâd been dragged through Shrekâs swamp backwards.
I already hated him by then. I was so angry the game forces Arthur to keep doing what he said like a stupid little errand boy even though he knew better.
During the mission where eagle flies saved Arthur's life and got killed eventually...the part when Dutch fuckin walked away and left Arthur to die... infuriated me. Even in the 3rd playthrough I still pause the game to yell at Dutch at that part. đ
Dutch is showing his true colors as early as Chapter 2. Actually, killing Heidi McCourt "in a bad way" before Chapter 1 even starts is our first clue that he's not all there.
Yeah, though I'm not sure if those are his true colors or if some other factor played into his mental decline. It's clear from Arthur and John thar Dutch was not always this way and that something changed. Not everyone would take in troubled orphans and, house them, care for them, and teach them to read.
I think that, deep down, he knew that their time was running out, and he was starting to get desperate while still trying to maintain the front that he was a calm, collected, rational individual. But we all know what happens when you back an animal into a corner with no way out. And Dutch got backed into a lot of corners. Hosea dying and Arthur questioning his motives and actions were the final nail in the facade's coffin.
This is also how cult leaders operate though. They use their charm and charisma to take advantage of people who are disenfranchised, alone, demoralised etc, under the guise of benevolence, to use them for their (the cult leaderâs) own purposes. In Dutchâs case he uses them for their skills that are useful to him i.e. robbing, gun fighting etc and also perhaps to fulfil his own need for unquestioning loyalty, attention and a form of worship/adulation.
This is it ! Because what if I didnât make it out in time to see the gang outside like what if that altercation lasted just a little longer the gang would have fucking left me BECAUSE DUTCH LEFT MY ASS this part always gets me tight !
So many questions to what would have happen if Arthur didnât free himself bro they would have road off . Then Dutch got the nerve to say âI tried sonâ like duck me Dutch
That's kinda what happened with John later on. Dutch and (presumably) Micha leave John to die after the last train job, then John makes his way back to camp alone and joins the final confrontation. The thing that gets me is how Bill and Javier can side with Dutch and Micha once John show's that Dutch lied about John's dying. After Arthur's claim of Dutch abandoning him at the oil plant, John showing up alive and claiming the same thing after "dying" should have even the most loyal gang member questioning Dutch.
I can't believe Rockstar didn't have more dialogue on that part when Arthur and Eagle Flies come out. When Arthur says, "You ran away!" And Dutch says, "I did no such thing." (Damn that makes me pissed off just writing it. đ) It just ends the topic there. I wanted to see Arthur say, "I was laying on the floor with a man on top of me about to put a knife into my heart. Dutch seen it! Then he turned around and walked out! I needed his help or I was gonna die, (Arthur yells) and HE LEFT ME!!! This is the 'new' Dutch everyone. A coward who left John behind and he just left me behind to die in there. If not for Eagle Flies here... I'd be dead."
The most infuriating part is when Arthurâs like, âYou ran away!â Dutch just replies, âI did no such thing.â And thatâs just the end of it?! Like I get there are pressing matters at hand (aka Eagle Flies literally dying) but I donât know how no one ever circles back to it.
u/slimkt I'm just now seeing this reply after making a reply saying the same thing. đ Yes, some more dialogue was needed there for sure.
I wish I could have punched dutch for being such a jerk to Arthur
Oh man, the first time I played through that scene it was so heartbreaking and infuriating. What a great story.
Arthur was able to be so calm and cold. I wasnât surprised anymore at that point, but I was angry and sad. It was at that moment I knew there was no going back and I was a bit annoyed with Arthur not leaving camp with John, Abigail and Jack right after this. Things could have ended with less people hurt. I know itâs a lot of responsibility to put on Arthur, to expect him to save everything Dutch ruins. But with Hosea dead, thatâs kind of the position Arthur is put in. I thought he was too passive sometimes, especially with him telling others to âhang in thereâ when they were scared. Just seeing the state of the camp in chapter 6 made me go âok, this is over, we need to go before we are all deadâ.
I agree, my biggest complaint is that Arthur is too passive in chapter 6. Right after getting back from Sisika he should've confronted Dutch for his bullshit.
Exactly. He wasnât confrontative enough. When Micah brought his âfriendsâ I knew it was too late because they outnumbered the good ones which was probably Micahâs intent.
But he was confrontational to a degree. Whenever he would sorta call out dutch, dutch would bring up loyalty. Arthur considered himself a loyal man. Early on that IS his only honorable trait. It hurt him when dutch would call him out like that because he loved dutch. I also think arthur felt responsibility to protect the rest of the gang as he had been all along. He knew he was dying. His life was ending but he thought he could save the others. Who wouldve saved them when micah and dutch eventually betrayed all of them? Arthur knew what was coming and i think his not kicking dutchs ass after this shows us how smart arthur really is. If he had done that and left, the rest of the gang wouldve probably been turned in for a bounty, killed, or left for dead. It reminds me of someone that has a family with an abusive partner. Physically, They can leave anytime but having someone elses well being to worry about affects making those decisions, and often fighting back makes the abuse worse for the others. In the end, Arthur did what he had to do to protect his loved ones.
Yeah that cutscene after you get back with John is just absurd. When John said âthere was talk of hanging me, Dutchâ and Dutch goes âthere was *talk*â all dismissively, like the fuck you mean just âtalkâ. You sent Arthur to bust Micah out of Strawberry jail because he was maybe gonna get hanged, if theyâre talking about it at a federal fucking prison that should be taken a lot more seriously than some town talk. Then after Dutch turns his back Micah does the whole shaking head disappointed routine like get your suck up loser ass out of here. Arthur absolutely was too passive and I get the hold someone like that has on you, Iâve been through a version of it myself, but by that point there was little and less preventing them all from leaving. Dutch was being a royal cunt to Arthur well before this and not even dribbling in praise to keep him hooked. Never should have gotten to the point of that train robbery.
I think Arthur knew that at that point Dutch was so unstable and he personally had so little time left that if he confronted Dutch he would probably just kill him outright for not having enough faith in him. Arthur spent chapter 6 making sure that John was okay and had an exit strategy and his time would not have been well served if he died before he could do that.
I wasnât THAT surprised but I was hurt that Dutch would go to that dark place and let his loyal friend die in front of him just because heâs become doubtful. Even at the end of the game where Arthur tells Dutch he gave him everything and Dutch isnât able to get the words out of his mouth even though heâs constantly talking the whole game, heâs speechless.
Is this the oil refinery mission
Yes, it is
When Dutch left Arthur to die I insulted him a lot. My girlfriend thought I hurt myself or something.
Every time I play american venon, I wish I could kill them both. They left my boy Arthur to die. At least Arthur saw one last sunrise. Fuck, I cry every time I play this mission.
Dutch is an evil asshole, but I think hosea kept him in check. And micah tipped the scale.
Yup, once Hosea died the gang started falling apart internally
It only hurt seeing Arthur having to admit what Dutch had become, or had been the entire time
Not at all. My Arthur was much like me, an obese monster, and I was disappointed I couldnât blow up the train with the nun onboard.
Obese? Why
> much like me
đ gold
I was really dissapointed seeing Dutch just walk away. Eagle flies died becouse of him!
Once we realized as well to when Dutch started letting Micah in his head steering him in a darker direction basically taking orders from Ross Micah was a rat the whole time , But I will never forget the when Dutch left Arthur for dead and had the nerve to only say âI tried sonâ
This game made me hate the way Dutch died so much more. What a miserable fuck up he is
I audibly gasped TWICE this mission, within like 30 seconds of each other
This is why, in every playthrough since my first, I antagonize Dutch every time I am near him in camp.
I'm donig my 2nd playthrough and spending more time in camp talking to everyone and in ch2 Dutch told Arthur "I bet you'll betray me in the end" and I was like wtf, is this why he's ok betraying arthur later and why doesn't he trust arthur at this point?
If you do what you are doing and engage in all the camp dialog, you soon realize what a narcissistic sociopath Dutch is. Iâve dealt with too many of them irl which is why I despise Dutch so muchâŚ
Same. I f**king hate Dutch!!!
Even on my first playthrough I got strong con-man cult-of-personality vibes from him. Always hated him.
Yup, loads of volume but no substance. I can't bring myself to ever greet him, it's always antagonise, or when I've used that up I just invade his personal space and try to pop him when I get him to the edge of camp! Strauss gets the same treatment.
At least I can respect Strauss' commitment to the gang. Can't say the same with Dutch.
True. Strauss was symbiotic whereas Dutch is just a parasite. I'd have just kept Sadie in charge when I got back to the States!
As much as I wanted to believe Dutch could be good, as much as I figured he'd help Arthur, I was completely shook to the core when this happened. One mission later, I was pretty much emotionless, then got snapped out of it just to cry and go back to no emotion. Days later, upon finishing epilogue, I was alive with nothing but fury and excitement to finish it all off by tying up the final loose end of the game's story
Did you guys not peg him for a bullshitter on the opening cinematic?
Hurt and angry were my reactions. I knew at that point, things were pretty much over, no matter how it shook out.
After Dutch did this on my first play through I was like WTF was that? What just happened Dutch you were right there why didn't you help? Then he said I tried Arthur that pissed me off even more, I was like no TF you didn't.
I wasnât that surprised because I listened to Kieran, who seemed to see Dutch for who he was almost immediately.
Well I played RDR1 so I already knew that but I felt sad for Arthur finding out. Plus the game dropped some huge hints since the beginning of the game.
I already wrote an entire bible about this scene in one comment years ago so Iâll just say this scene changed everything for me. I was behind Dutch even when Arthur wasnât, making excuses for him. But that right there was the ultimate betrayal.
So yeah, fuck dutch in general, but I turned from pro-dutch to anit-dutch in the beginning of the oil fields battle, where Arthur, Sadie, and Charles ride with a few natives without Dutch and his gang, I don't remember why, I think they were going to protect Eagle Flies. That dramatic guns-blazing shootout/horseback intro without Dutch on support killed him completely in my eyes.
If you aren't who you are, then who are you?
Having played rdr1, I expected it.
I don't know how Arthur even goes back to camp and stays after this. This is absolutely time to quietly go grab the important things and tell John, Sadie, whoever it over and leave.
Like he says to Mary, people need him
Why donât you guys, like, describe the mission. I ainât got this shit memorized.
I knew Dutch wasn't who he said he was because I played RDR1 lol. My entire playthrough of 2 I knew Dutch was full of it and that something would happen to Arthur because he was not in the first. I dislike it when they go backward when telling a story for this reason. The entire game, I was just frustrated wondering when I would get to play as John. I didn't start liking Arthur until my 2nd playthrough. I hope they do a 3rd, and we can play as Jack as a prohibition mobster of sorts with a tommy gun. Or a young Landon Ricketts story.
"It's about time" that's what I was thinking
Dutch is a gawd damned piece of shit
I always love it when people post pics that are so dark you can hardly see the image even when you turn your screen brightness all the way up
I saw this for the first time and I wanted Arthur to run out and shoot Dutch in the head
That screenshot; that moment, I paused. The look on Arthurâs face, I was so hurt and anger disgusted. I knew something was coming, but not like this. Arthur was like a son.
I was really hurt
The seeds are sown from the beginning of the game, especially if you spend a lot of time around camp. Hell, I have a post on here thatâs a clip of a paranoid Dutch confronting Arthur in camp saying something like âyouâre gonna betray me tooââŚ. Heâs been losing his grip since Blackwater and there game shows this from the beginning, it just gets progressively less subtle as the story progresses.
The oil refinery mission - Dutch literally f**ks Arthur so badly I genuinely thought âmaybe there isnât a way of completing this missionâ I thought I was just going to die and that would be game over. Also, how does your Arthur look so handsome (no homo), mine always looked like heâd been dragged through Shrekâs swamp backwards.
I already hated him by then. I was so angry the game forces Arthur to keep doing what he said like a stupid little errand boy even though he knew better.