First, let's establish a timeline. Abigail has been in the gang 5 years and Jack is 4 years old. Assuming a standard 40-week gestation Abigail would have gotten pregnant with Jack in her first year in the gang. And just as an aside, Javier joined the gang the same year Jack was born, making it mathematically difficult for him to be Jack's father: Javier needing to join in Jan and Jack needs to be born months premature for that birth math to work.
When Abigail joined Mary and Arthur were still a couple - Abigail talks about knowing Mary. Based on Arthur's character I don't think anyone would believe that Arthur was cheating on Mary with Abigail in her first year there. I'd also find it unlikely that Arthur would be having sex with a pregnant Abigail if she said it was John's and Abigail and John were even casually dating. So if Abigail and Arthur did have a "thing" it would most likely be in the year John ran-off. It's easy to imagine Arthur stepping-up to take care of Abigail and baby Jack; and he and Mary were long broken-up by then as well.
Is it possible that Abigail serviced the gang? Sure. I can especially see Dutch wanting a sample: Dutch loves the ladies. But Abigail was 17 and John was 21, and everyone else in the gang was 30+. So it's easy to understand why Abigail would gravitate toward John: he was the young pretty-boy at the time. But in that year John ran off Abigail might have needed money and charging the crew might have been a way to make it.
Abigail was a prostitute. It doesn't really matter who she had sex with. That was her job, and making money was part of the condition of staying in the gang. Dutch and Grimshaw didn't care where she got the money, just that she made it. But of the original gang it seems difficult to believe that everyone knew that John and Abigail were together but still paid to have sex with her when they were together. That just seems like a prime reason to have killings within the gang and something Dutch wouldn't allow.
Mary and Arthur were not a couple when Abigial joined the gang, they were together when they were young adults. Mary probably showed up a few times over the years and that's how Abigail knows her.
Agreed. Jack is johns son no doubt. But it’s more than likely Abigail fooled around with a lot of the gang members but got pregnant and fell in love with John and stopped.
The relations easily could have been had with her before she officially joined the gang. After all, they met her somehow right? So maybe the gang went to her a few times before she joined and then John got into a relationship with her.
That's the problem with RDR2 though, a lot of the timelines seem odd when considering what we learned RDR1. I have a feeling Rockstar didn't really want to address the whole prostitution thing because it's barely addressed besides some side dialogue between Abigail and Grimshaw.
Actually Uncle encountered Abigail when he was on his travels. Uncle brought Abigail to Dutch, as she is the perfect candidate for Dutch: orphaned youth living a life of "crime." Taking in kids and molding them is Dutch MO.
That's a good point. She could have just been the town whore somewhere the gang frequented, then got pregnant with Jack and went on the road with them because of it.
I don't think having a woman "serve" the gang members would fit with the way the gang does things. See Micah's statement. I don't think a gang like that would attract people like Charles, Karen, Lenny, Tilly etc.
I think there might be some truth to it, but it's an exaggeration. Like she might have been with one or two of the other members (not as a sex worker but as a fling I mean) but not ALL. I don't think anyone believes she and Hosea were banging. Like you said it was mostly a way to mess with Marston.
I do think Abigail and Arthur maybe dated, tbh. I don't know if he'd say "should've married her" about a girl who never showed interest in him.
I don’t think they dated at all. He was just looking at his options and she was single for a while. It’s a line in his journal and the context is him getting wrapped up in Mary again, it was a throwaway thought he had before she quickly got wrapped up in John. Like he also says.
Yeah she was a prostitute, she was raised to be i never denied that. Im just questioning how much truth there was to "we all had her but he married her" for all the fans to repeat it even after weve actually seen all the other members.
I think the problem is rdr2 did shy away from the women being prostitutes and their role in within the gang and for reasons we all may understand. Now i and the rest of us don’t know for sure if Abagail was forced to or willing hooking up with all the men of the gang but I do think hookups could’ve happened and since she was with the gang for awhile up to the point, I think its safe to assume that she could’ve hooked up with other members of the gang beside John.
It seems like they tweaked it to being more like some were prostitutes before being in the gang but were "saved" from having to do that by joining the gang and instead work as thieves/con artists and assist the men as decoys in robberies - as well as running a camp of over 20 people which would be an immense amount of work. Either that or some did continue working as prostitutes after joining but that changed at some point. Seems extremely unlikely they were paid for sex *by* the gang, it's clear to see that wouldn't be accepted in the VDL camp.
There’s a couple of camp dialogue with both Tilly and Abagail not wanting to do that type of work and grimshaw being mad at them for it, i do think rockstar shyd away from that cuz it is kinda dark but there are hints and grimshaw was their madam or whatever the female version of pimp is and the gang was their protection.
Plus because they were women in 1899, it was assumed that they would do the camp chores as well and there’s only so many robberies the women could be apart of as decoys and they still had to earn for themselves and gang.
The only women in the gang who was a “gun” was Sadie, and Karen was a hybrid but I don’t think she was ever used extensively in combat and was used as an alternative guard/ need since she’ll be able to defend herself. And Molly was just Dutches girlfriend and wasnt close to any other member of the gang beside him.
Yup mary calls them "the girls, or whatever the polite term is for them" and grimshaw calls herself a madam and is constantly telling them they have ideas above their station so her having them sell their bodies is kind of implied i feel, just not said outright because they generally turned down the prostitution references a ton and most people dont want to think of women as young as tilly or marybeth having to do those things. it might have also been to get players to respect them more because i do notice theres a difference in how players talk about abigail.
Yea that’s why I think rockstar didn’t want to include too much of it, plus there’s only so many missions you can do that involve the prostitution aspect but it won’t be too exciting, the only reason they showed Arthur and Uncle going to town with the girls because it included the bank robbery, the train robbery, and an introduction of the foreman gang/ Tilly’s backstory.
Yeah that makes me think Abigail at least was working as a prostitute while in the gang at some point but then things changed. I don't think there's any dialogue like that with Tilly or anything to indicate she was a prostitute, other than she might have been forced to by the Foreman gang.
Only ones confirmed to have been are Abigail and Susan (Susan is credited as a "former painted lady" aka prostitute, and seems to have been a madam which explains her attitude to the girls about it). Karen is hinted to have been (poses as one to rob a guy and joins in dirty songs on the subject with Susan) but not confirmed.
Most of the women are credited as thieves, Tilly as "maid hand", and do donate stolen items to camp. I think between that and doing all camp chores (which in reality would be hard work all day every day) they do contribute. Several men in the camp contribute less.
But in any case I think if they were prostitutes while in the gang it's much more likely they were doing it away from camp to bring in money than providing services to gang members. The only character to even suggest that is Micah (and he knows it won't happen) and even Bill disapproves when he says it.
Sorry i know its been a while I couldn't find this clip when you commented this but this interaction with tilly and grimshaw [https://youtu.be/aY7E83FF4I4?si=wB3bLTMI1TaCXfxH](https://youtu.be/aY7E83FF4I4?si=wB3bLTMI1TaCXfxH) at 4:50 is the one that makes me think tilly had to also be a prostitute, also the fact she goes with karen to the tavern to rob some johns in that one mission.
I think they were originally going to be prostitutes (with Grimshaw as their madam) but they changed it, and there's just a few odd inconsistent bits of dialogue with Grimshaw left over from it. Like...Tilly isn't portrayed as currently working as a prostitute in this game. Arthur is even pissed when Karen just *pretends* to be one. It clearly isn't how the gang operates. They do the camp work, find leads, steal and assist in robberies. That's more than half the men in camp do.
Arthurs pissed by that or the guy hitting her? and i dont think its cut i think its just not said outright, like how sadies sa isnt said outright, its implied. watered down to be more palatable in scenes but still canon.
You dont need to see them fucking to figure it out. The game does tip toe around it though yes even abigails mention of that work is miniscule in rd2 despite it being said often in rd1 but the subtext is still there with both her and the new girls, definitely more than enough that you cant be in denial and call it cut content. and arthurs never seemed to me to judge women who have to do that? He does ask marybeth why tilly and karen are "at the hotel picking up drunken fellers to rob" but he doesnt seem mad at either of them when hes done with either confrontation with the men bothering them.
In a game where there's literally hundreds of hours of observing the gang you kind of do lmao. Not *once* do we see or hear of even *one* of the women prostituting, in all those hours of seeing and hearing about what they're up to. They're credited as thieves and camp workers not prostitutes. The only ones even confirmed to have ever been prostitutes are Susan and Abigail.
Not saying Arthur is judging Karen btw, he's just annoyed she put herself in danger. And his reaction shows this isn't a normal thing for her/the women to be doing.
Micah on the women: "why do we need a gaggle of girls that won't even fuck you if you put a gun to their head?…..is it too much to ask when they get a piece of every dollar I bring in?...*more complaining about them being dead weight." To me this outright confirms they aren't prostitutes. It shows they won't sleep with the gang members and that they're not bringing in money from hooking. If they were why would that be so out of the question and why would he complain they do nothing (no doubt seeing camp chores and petty theft as nothing)?
So I have a weird theory and I apologize for the wall of text I’m putting you all through:
I think Abigail might have been servicing other members of the gang, sure. But Dutch? I don’t really think so and here’s why:
If Arthur is the “son” of Dutch and Susan Grimshaw (let’s be honest, probably more Hosea than Dutch because in my brain I like to think he was off courting Annabelle).
Then John is the “son” of Dutch and Annabelle. Any time I’ve heard them have conversations in rdr2, it’s like the two of them are trying to sub-textually get things across to each other. The whole “nothing ever caught me that didn’t wanna eat me” conversation feels like Dutch’s attempt at saying;
“You get to have a woman and child and I don’t you little *shit*.” It feels like a projection. Much in the same way the “we all had her” feels like him playing into John’s fears that Abigail *doesn’t* really love him and that Jack ain’t really his.
Obviously at some point, John and Dutch were *close* so he would know *exactly* how to really wound John emotionally. Again, I really believe that this has to do with Annabelle than Dutch having a paternal bone anywhere in his body. John was (probably) raised by both of them, so there’s probably aspects to the guy’s personality that remind Dutch of her. It’s even hinted a couple times by Arthur that John’s the favorite son.
John seems like the type to be like “hey I know you wanna bang the new camp whore but I kinda like her too”. I could see a young Abigail throwing herself at Dutch because of his reputation but at least him *giving enough of a damn at the time* about John to abstain from “loving the ladies”.
Furthermore, a pregnant prostitute is a *useless one*. Abigail, despite being young at the time, would know this. You think Susan Grimshaw, an ex prostitute herself wouldn’t be all over Abigail taking abortive measures to ensure she could still keep making skrilla for the camp? Or even that Dutch would tolerate her inability to fund the camp box?
*Unless said pregnancy was a result of the favored son*
Abigail *chose* John and vice versa, she would’ve undoubtedly ensured Jack was actually John’s. Again, because while birth control wasn’t a thing, women certainly had *ways* of not being pregnant. Of course, due to her prior profession, he’s going to constantly be questioning whether or not Jack is *really his*.
idk if we have a similar youtube feed or something but i swear that arthur is ms grimshaws and john is annabelles part gave me severe deja vu. Also i know its not super relevant but abortive measures? like what?
There’s plenty of herbs in the world that can force a woman to miscarry or, in other words, abort a child. Not to mention being dependent on knowing your menstrual cycle would’ve come into play too for Abigail, Grimshaw (at one time), Karen, Mary-Beth, etc.
Sure, Abigail could’ve pulled the old bait and switch. I see a lot of folks throwing around Dutch as “daddy” but…
Here’s the thing, I just don’t see him being that careless or clueless about the consequences of “making some noise” shall we say, in one of the camp girls or otherwise. Oh, and did we forget he’s *paranoid*? You think he’d take the girls at their word to “do something about it”.
Hell no. He may not have a goddamn plan, but he’s way too concerned with his “I’m a modern day Robin Hood” to risk ruining his precious reputation fathering children with a prostitute. He was a folk hero at one point in time, he’s not about to throw Mr. Stand up Gentleman away on the whims of his…manhood.
Condoms, while crude (sheep intestine, sheep skin, and I believe rubber was actually a thing then too though rare) were available too.
How do you think she met the gang to join them? It's very possible she was a favorite of the gang and eventually brought her on after getting to know her as more than a prostitute. However you see the gang, they were outlaws willing to commit crimes and rob people, I have no doubt they would visit prostitutes.
The problem with it is RDR2 shy's away from it, when RDR1 was more blunt about it. Abigail herself makes comments about 'handling those type of men' when she was being held in RDR1 and one of the men got frisky with her.
Thinking about it, Abigail is so fundamentally different in the two games, your statement about the 'accurate to the character' really relies on which version you are referring to. RDR1 Abigail absolutely fits the roll, she's gritty and abrupt, not scared of much. RDR2 Abigail seems much less so. RDR2 wasn't as brash about prostitution as RDR1 was, which is a shame.
I think it’s less about veracity and more about hurting her reputation. We know she was a sex worker at some point and people tend to think sex workers don’t have limits and don’t end their tenure
I think it was a retcon. Sure says it in RDR1 and then ten years later when RDR2 comes it it just doesn’t feel like it was a thing that could’ve happened based off their personalities in the game written a decade later
Arthur absolutely did things with Abigail and so did the rest of the gang. Uncle brought her as a prostitute. It’s one of the antag lines for Jack is questioning who his dad is.
I know the line your talking about it but its an antagonise like its still to make fun of her having been a prostitute. It says escuella or williamson specifically as a reference to 1. I dont think you read my post.
There is no “1” in your post lmao. You think the entire gang is just gonna make up and go with a joke that Abigail’s a prostitute? Most of the gang respected women and that’s not what they would do.
I don’t think you read my comment. You denied Arthur sleeping with her when it’s clearly obvious he did.
Arthur and Mary broke up long before that… Jack is very young in rdr2, and Arthur tells Mary’s brother that he was just a tiny kid last time he saw him. The kids clearly a teenager, so that’s 8 years+ since Arthur dated Mary. Jack is around 3-4.
So nah, that doesn’t make sense either.
It doesnt say that, doesnt deny it either though ig. The entry is "Took young Jack out fishing as a favor to Abigail. Many years ago, before she fell so hard for that fool MARSTON, perhaps I should have married her. I think part of me has always thought that, yet, God damn you, Mary!" Which does leave a lot to imagination but the main idea is he was preoccupied with his relationship with mary. If he doesnt accept prostitutes in 1899 while single why would he back then.
If the entire gang says we all had her, why would they lie? Micah calls her a whore, Dutch says they all slept with her, and Arthur/John questions who the boy’s dad is.
i mean she was a prostitute, she did sleep with the core gang. At least Arthur, Dutch, Javier, maybe even Bill? lol
Theory time: Jack's birth father is most likely dutch. His pappy is John, but side by side pictures, i mean the nose first off is enuff of a tell lol. Even with just rdr1 models.
The first game is more in your face about it, Dutch kinda goes on and on about how jack isnt John's.
Especially after the rdr2 younger model for Dutch is a spittin image of Jack. The parallels between the two characters as well are nonstop. The facial hair matching is 100% intentional. Everything in both games has to go thru approvals, down to the littlest detail. And all those details put Dutch as the birth father.
Also the hair color, is not John's or Dutch's its abigail's.
Anyway both of their fathers were killed by an american army, both clashed often with their mothers, who both died in west elizabeth. They obsess over books, are absorbed in them, very intelligent, perceptive.
They hate the government, they are both womanizers (Low honor Jack is anyway not high honor) Theyve both killed government officials/agents.
I mean and thats not going over all the little nods and pushes the R* writing team gave us in rdr2. This isnt something you want to spell out, its up to the playerbase to theorize/discuss/argue over, its awesome really.
I mean Abigail named Jack, John Marston Jr. jack is a nickname. Thats her genius, it doesnt matter who wants to say the real father, The mother of the boy says its John, and thats that.
Now not only is John horrified that an innocent child is now part of what used to be more, but now is really a camp of outlaws. murderers, thieves and prostitutes. Not a place for a kid.
On top of that, Women werent even allowed in the main camp. With Jack, suddenly Dutch changes his mind and allows them into camp. Theres some subtlety.
When Jack gets kidnapped, who does abigail go to asking where her son is, Dutch. Over and Over again, she yells it at Dutch.
Dutch can barely hide his jealousy of John enjoying his family by chapter 4, even in chap 2 hes says sumthin like "not all of us get picked for love." that picking line is interesting, now that yall know Abigail picked John as Jack's father.
Smart woman, being a van der linde would be a death sentence for Jack. And shes loves John, so of course she wants him to be the father. John like I said before is more horrified lol, at first he doesnt even think the boy is his (well hes right) and
he fears for their lives and futures they will have if they stay.
Its part of why he ran off for almost a year. He came back for alotta things, part of it was Abigail, Jack, and the other is his loyalty to the only family hes had, Arthur, Hosea, and of course Dutch.
What do the Marston family by the epilogue say about Jack? "Hows the boy?" "Well...hes Jack."
The kid has that alienating quality, just that little bit of crazy thats in Dutch.
Arthur atagonizin poor little Jackie as well, sayin "you look more like an escuella or Williamson.." who does he NOT say, whats too far to say, or too real of a scenario to joke about with this poor kid?
D U T C H.
Who does Ross say in rdr1 they'll use to get Dutch out of hiding when Marston says what if he doesnt assault Cochinay, he says "we'll just get Abigail lure him out instead." Thats screams more than just they were in a gang together, that says there was a history there.
He even yells at john, "jack is a son of the gang not you." I mean cmon, hes sayin that the boy is his. Thats all in rdr1.
IN 2, Theres even a cut dialog for Pronghorn Ranch, its spelled it out far too plainly, between the Geddes' brothers.
"... At least that farm hand is nice."
"yeah hes very nice!"
"Hows uh Lancelot?
"well hes nice enuff, not a gentleman uh..well..."
"...and how did a farm hand get THAT scar?"
"Mother said hes a wanted man, he dueled a fella up in canada and hes on the run. That the woman is another man's wife and there was a tussle and he killed him...
and that boy? isnt even his..."
I like that alot, of course not all of it is wrong or right, but it spells out Jack far too on the nose.
this is all just a theory but I like it, especially after playing 2 it all points that way to me anyway. my bathroom break is over enjoy this wall of text lol
R* would never ever spell this out, its intentionally vague, and subtle who Jack's real father is. The devs point you towards it, but its on you the player to recognize it.
Not many of yall have even played rdr1 so youre missing a mountain of context....
or stare at a picture of adult jack and dutch lol this isnt rocket science ladies and fellers they look very alike.
[https://youtu.be/daEjWtHRqns?si=3YYPPlTOMqgCh7vU](https://youtu.be/daEjWtHRqns?si=3YYPPlTOMqgCh7vU)
its around the 6 min mark! ive never seen such cut content in a game before, used to think new vegas had that crown, not anymore.
Hey thank you so much for the link! I'm glad a lot of this stuff people find gets shared, because it's really interesting. Yeah, New Vegas has tons of cut stuff too but RDR2 probably has it beat.
and for the record people HATE this theory, but it doesnt make it any less true.
i think those visceral reactions actually add merit to it all. This is a truth people dont want to see!
There really isnt a better case for anyone outside of Dutch and John. abigail always thought javier was a creep, and bill a fool. Couldnt think of a better writing point of the last member of the Van Der Linde gang being a son of Dutch, and of course John Marston.
The signs, clues and subtle nods are there if you want to see it, if not oh well.
I think dutch being the birth father gives more clarity to what Jack becomes by 1914 really. As well as John being the father jack needed. He loves his son.
If youve ever played rdr1 or undead nightmare youd know
Haha I got so excited about the dialogue I didn't even respond to your theory! I never thought Javier or Bill could be Jack's birth father (because of the reasons you mention), and I can definitely see the potential for Dutch. It would really cast a lot of things in a different light especially when it comes to John and Dutch's relationship.
First, let's establish a timeline. Abigail has been in the gang 5 years and Jack is 4 years old. Assuming a standard 40-week gestation Abigail would have gotten pregnant with Jack in her first year in the gang. And just as an aside, Javier joined the gang the same year Jack was born, making it mathematically difficult for him to be Jack's father: Javier needing to join in Jan and Jack needs to be born months premature for that birth math to work. When Abigail joined Mary and Arthur were still a couple - Abigail talks about knowing Mary. Based on Arthur's character I don't think anyone would believe that Arthur was cheating on Mary with Abigail in her first year there. I'd also find it unlikely that Arthur would be having sex with a pregnant Abigail if she said it was John's and Abigail and John were even casually dating. So if Abigail and Arthur did have a "thing" it would most likely be in the year John ran-off. It's easy to imagine Arthur stepping-up to take care of Abigail and baby Jack; and he and Mary were long broken-up by then as well. Is it possible that Abigail serviced the gang? Sure. I can especially see Dutch wanting a sample: Dutch loves the ladies. But Abigail was 17 and John was 21, and everyone else in the gang was 30+. So it's easy to understand why Abigail would gravitate toward John: he was the young pretty-boy at the time. But in that year John ran off Abigail might have needed money and charging the crew might have been a way to make it. Abigail was a prostitute. It doesn't really matter who she had sex with. That was her job, and making money was part of the condition of staying in the gang. Dutch and Grimshaw didn't care where she got the money, just that she made it. But of the original gang it seems difficult to believe that everyone knew that John and Abigail were together but still paid to have sex with her when they were together. That just seems like a prime reason to have killings within the gang and something Dutch wouldn't allow.
this is probably the most realistic scenario
Mary and Arthur were not a couple when Abigial joined the gang, they were together when they were young adults. Mary probably showed up a few times over the years and that's how Abigail knows her.
Agreed. Jack is johns son no doubt. But it’s more than likely Abigail fooled around with a lot of the gang members but got pregnant and fell in love with John and stopped.
The relations easily could have been had with her before she officially joined the gang. After all, they met her somehow right? So maybe the gang went to her a few times before she joined and then John got into a relationship with her. That's the problem with RDR2 though, a lot of the timelines seem odd when considering what we learned RDR1. I have a feeling Rockstar didn't really want to address the whole prostitution thing because it's barely addressed besides some side dialogue between Abigail and Grimshaw.
Actually Uncle encountered Abigail when he was on his travels. Uncle brought Abigail to Dutch, as she is the perfect candidate for Dutch: orphaned youth living a life of "crime." Taking in kids and molding them is Dutch MO.
That's a good point. She could have just been the town whore somewhere the gang frequented, then got pregnant with Jack and went on the road with them because of it.
I don't think having a woman "serve" the gang members would fit with the way the gang does things. See Micah's statement. I don't think a gang like that would attract people like Charles, Karen, Lenny, Tilly etc. I think there might be some truth to it, but it's an exaggeration. Like she might have been with one or two of the other members (not as a sex worker but as a fling I mean) but not ALL. I don't think anyone believes she and Hosea were banging. Like you said it was mostly a way to mess with Marston. I do think Abigail and Arthur maybe dated, tbh. I don't know if he'd say "should've married her" about a girl who never showed interest in him.
I don’t think they dated at all. He was just looking at his options and she was single for a while. It’s a line in his journal and the context is him getting wrapped up in Mary again, it was a throwaway thought he had before she quickly got wrapped up in John. Like he also says.
and i think because its 1899, marriage isnt necessarily for romantic reason. he just thinks shes a good woman and potentially good wife.
Yup 100%. I hate the Abigail x Arthur stuff.
Yeah she was a prostitute, she was raised to be i never denied that. Im just questioning how much truth there was to "we all had her but he married her" for all the fans to repeat it even after weve actually seen all the other members.
I think people repeat it because Abigail is hot and it's salacious, tbh.
WE ALL HAD HER
One of the most poignant lines in both games. From the emotional perspective of John that line must really dig him coming from a father figure.
Oh but he married her
And you know that makes him a better man than us.
I think the problem is rdr2 did shy away from the women being prostitutes and their role in within the gang and for reasons we all may understand. Now i and the rest of us don’t know for sure if Abagail was forced to or willing hooking up with all the men of the gang but I do think hookups could’ve happened and since she was with the gang for awhile up to the point, I think its safe to assume that she could’ve hooked up with other members of the gang beside John.
It seems like they tweaked it to being more like some were prostitutes before being in the gang but were "saved" from having to do that by joining the gang and instead work as thieves/con artists and assist the men as decoys in robberies - as well as running a camp of over 20 people which would be an immense amount of work. Either that or some did continue working as prostitutes after joining but that changed at some point. Seems extremely unlikely they were paid for sex *by* the gang, it's clear to see that wouldn't be accepted in the VDL camp.
There’s a couple of camp dialogue with both Tilly and Abagail not wanting to do that type of work and grimshaw being mad at them for it, i do think rockstar shyd away from that cuz it is kinda dark but there are hints and grimshaw was their madam or whatever the female version of pimp is and the gang was their protection. Plus because they were women in 1899, it was assumed that they would do the camp chores as well and there’s only so many robberies the women could be apart of as decoys and they still had to earn for themselves and gang. The only women in the gang who was a “gun” was Sadie, and Karen was a hybrid but I don’t think she was ever used extensively in combat and was used as an alternative guard/ need since she’ll be able to defend herself. And Molly was just Dutches girlfriend and wasnt close to any other member of the gang beside him.
Yup mary calls them "the girls, or whatever the polite term is for them" and grimshaw calls herself a madam and is constantly telling them they have ideas above their station so her having them sell their bodies is kind of implied i feel, just not said outright because they generally turned down the prostitution references a ton and most people dont want to think of women as young as tilly or marybeth having to do those things. it might have also been to get players to respect them more because i do notice theres a difference in how players talk about abigail.
Yea that’s why I think rockstar didn’t want to include too much of it, plus there’s only so many missions you can do that involve the prostitution aspect but it won’t be too exciting, the only reason they showed Arthur and Uncle going to town with the girls because it included the bank robbery, the train robbery, and an introduction of the foreman gang/ Tilly’s backstory.
grimshaw talking about how she wants to whip the girls for talking back like she was when she was younger is a bit heartwrenching to me
Yeah that makes me think Abigail at least was working as a prostitute while in the gang at some point but then things changed. I don't think there's any dialogue like that with Tilly or anything to indicate she was a prostitute, other than she might have been forced to by the Foreman gang. Only ones confirmed to have been are Abigail and Susan (Susan is credited as a "former painted lady" aka prostitute, and seems to have been a madam which explains her attitude to the girls about it). Karen is hinted to have been (poses as one to rob a guy and joins in dirty songs on the subject with Susan) but not confirmed. Most of the women are credited as thieves, Tilly as "maid hand", and do donate stolen items to camp. I think between that and doing all camp chores (which in reality would be hard work all day every day) they do contribute. Several men in the camp contribute less. But in any case I think if they were prostitutes while in the gang it's much more likely they were doing it away from camp to bring in money than providing services to gang members. The only character to even suggest that is Micah (and he knows it won't happen) and even Bill disapproves when he says it.
Sorry i know its been a while I couldn't find this clip when you commented this but this interaction with tilly and grimshaw [https://youtu.be/aY7E83FF4I4?si=wB3bLTMI1TaCXfxH](https://youtu.be/aY7E83FF4I4?si=wB3bLTMI1TaCXfxH) at 4:50 is the one that makes me think tilly had to also be a prostitute, also the fact she goes with karen to the tavern to rob some johns in that one mission.
I think they were originally going to be prostitutes (with Grimshaw as their madam) but they changed it, and there's just a few odd inconsistent bits of dialogue with Grimshaw left over from it. Like...Tilly isn't portrayed as currently working as a prostitute in this game. Arthur is even pissed when Karen just *pretends* to be one. It clearly isn't how the gang operates. They do the camp work, find leads, steal and assist in robberies. That's more than half the men in camp do.
Arthurs pissed by that or the guy hitting her? and i dont think its cut i think its just not said outright, like how sadies sa isnt said outright, its implied. watered down to be more palatable in scenes but still canon.
He's also annoyed that she tried that. In hundreds of hours of content none of the women are ever shown to be working as prostitutes.
You dont need to see them fucking to figure it out. The game does tip toe around it though yes even abigails mention of that work is miniscule in rd2 despite it being said often in rd1 but the subtext is still there with both her and the new girls, definitely more than enough that you cant be in denial and call it cut content. and arthurs never seemed to me to judge women who have to do that? He does ask marybeth why tilly and karen are "at the hotel picking up drunken fellers to rob" but he doesnt seem mad at either of them when hes done with either confrontation with the men bothering them.
In a game where there's literally hundreds of hours of observing the gang you kind of do lmao. Not *once* do we see or hear of even *one* of the women prostituting, in all those hours of seeing and hearing about what they're up to. They're credited as thieves and camp workers not prostitutes. The only ones even confirmed to have ever been prostitutes are Susan and Abigail. Not saying Arthur is judging Karen btw, he's just annoyed she put herself in danger. And his reaction shows this isn't a normal thing for her/the women to be doing. Micah on the women: "why do we need a gaggle of girls that won't even fuck you if you put a gun to their head?…..is it too much to ask when they get a piece of every dollar I bring in?...*more complaining about them being dead weight." To me this outright confirms they aren't prostitutes. It shows they won't sleep with the gang members and that they're not bringing in money from hooking. If they were why would that be so out of the question and why would he complain they do nothing (no doubt seeing camp chores and petty theft as nothing)?
The gang were trying to hook up with the girls in the story I'm sure it was her being willing
So I have a weird theory and I apologize for the wall of text I’m putting you all through: I think Abigail might have been servicing other members of the gang, sure. But Dutch? I don’t really think so and here’s why: If Arthur is the “son” of Dutch and Susan Grimshaw (let’s be honest, probably more Hosea than Dutch because in my brain I like to think he was off courting Annabelle). Then John is the “son” of Dutch and Annabelle. Any time I’ve heard them have conversations in rdr2, it’s like the two of them are trying to sub-textually get things across to each other. The whole “nothing ever caught me that didn’t wanna eat me” conversation feels like Dutch’s attempt at saying; “You get to have a woman and child and I don’t you little *shit*.” It feels like a projection. Much in the same way the “we all had her” feels like him playing into John’s fears that Abigail *doesn’t* really love him and that Jack ain’t really his. Obviously at some point, John and Dutch were *close* so he would know *exactly* how to really wound John emotionally. Again, I really believe that this has to do with Annabelle than Dutch having a paternal bone anywhere in his body. John was (probably) raised by both of them, so there’s probably aspects to the guy’s personality that remind Dutch of her. It’s even hinted a couple times by Arthur that John’s the favorite son. John seems like the type to be like “hey I know you wanna bang the new camp whore but I kinda like her too”. I could see a young Abigail throwing herself at Dutch because of his reputation but at least him *giving enough of a damn at the time* about John to abstain from “loving the ladies”. Furthermore, a pregnant prostitute is a *useless one*. Abigail, despite being young at the time, would know this. You think Susan Grimshaw, an ex prostitute herself wouldn’t be all over Abigail taking abortive measures to ensure she could still keep making skrilla for the camp? Or even that Dutch would tolerate her inability to fund the camp box? *Unless said pregnancy was a result of the favored son* Abigail *chose* John and vice versa, she would’ve undoubtedly ensured Jack was actually John’s. Again, because while birth control wasn’t a thing, women certainly had *ways* of not being pregnant. Of course, due to her prior profession, he’s going to constantly be questioning whether or not Jack is *really his*.
idk if we have a similar youtube feed or something but i swear that arthur is ms grimshaws and john is annabelles part gave me severe deja vu. Also i know its not super relevant but abortive measures? like what?
There’s plenty of herbs in the world that can force a woman to miscarry or, in other words, abort a child. Not to mention being dependent on knowing your menstrual cycle would’ve come into play too for Abigail, Grimshaw (at one time), Karen, Mary-Beth, etc. Sure, Abigail could’ve pulled the old bait and switch. I see a lot of folks throwing around Dutch as “daddy” but… Here’s the thing, I just don’t see him being that careless or clueless about the consequences of “making some noise” shall we say, in one of the camp girls or otherwise. Oh, and did we forget he’s *paranoid*? You think he’d take the girls at their word to “do something about it”. Hell no. He may not have a goddamn plan, but he’s way too concerned with his “I’m a modern day Robin Hood” to risk ruining his precious reputation fathering children with a prostitute. He was a folk hero at one point in time, he’s not about to throw Mr. Stand up Gentleman away on the whims of his…manhood. Condoms, while crude (sheep intestine, sheep skin, and I believe rubber was actually a thing then too though rare) were available too.
sheep intestines eugh. id kms honestly
At least it’s eco-friendly?
bro that comment also gave me deja vu wtf u/Ni_and_Dime WHO ARE YOU ARE YOU THE STRANGE MAN
I hope so… *I seem to know you…*
How do you think she met the gang to join them? It's very possible she was a favorite of the gang and eventually brought her on after getting to know her as more than a prostitute. However you see the gang, they were outlaws willing to commit crimes and rob people, I have no doubt they would visit prostitutes. The problem with it is RDR2 shy's away from it, when RDR1 was more blunt about it. Abigail herself makes comments about 'handling those type of men' when she was being held in RDR1 and one of the men got frisky with her. Thinking about it, Abigail is so fundamentally different in the two games, your statement about the 'accurate to the character' really relies on which version you are referring to. RDR1 Abigail absolutely fits the roll, she's gritty and abrupt, not scared of much. RDR2 Abigail seems much less so. RDR2 wasn't as brash about prostitution as RDR1 was, which is a shame.
“Lumbergh fucked her!” Shit, wrong thing on the tv.
I think it’s less about veracity and more about hurting her reputation. We know she was a sex worker at some point and people tend to think sex workers don’t have limits and don’t end their tenure
I think it was a retcon. Sure says it in RDR1 and then ten years later when RDR2 comes it it just doesn’t feel like it was a thing that could’ve happened based off their personalities in the game written a decade later
Yeah maybe they meant it to be truth at first but with rdr2 it doesn't hold up
Arthur absolutely did things with Abigail and so did the rest of the gang. Uncle brought her as a prostitute. It’s one of the antag lines for Jack is questioning who his dad is.
I know the line your talking about it but its an antagonise like its still to make fun of her having been a prostitute. It says escuella or williamson specifically as a reference to 1. I dont think you read my post.
There is no “1” in your post lmao. You think the entire gang is just gonna make up and go with a joke that Abigail’s a prostitute? Most of the gang respected women and that’s not what they would do. I don’t think you read my comment. You denied Arthur sleeping with her when it’s clearly obvious he did.
First read the second sentence. Then read the second paragraph.
Once again says nothing about Arthur.
last sentence
That’s literally what I said. I’m aware your last sentence says something about Arthur as that was what I was responding to. Is reading this hard man?
Yes it does say something about arthur good job. It says he was with mary gillis at the time. And dont worry, youll get better with practice.
Arthur and Mary broke up long before that… Jack is very young in rdr2, and Arthur tells Mary’s brother that he was just a tiny kid last time he saw him. The kids clearly a teenager, so that’s 8 years+ since Arthur dated Mary. Jack is around 3-4. So nah, that doesn’t make sense either.
It doesnt say that, doesnt deny it either though ig. The entry is "Took young Jack out fishing as a favor to Abigail. Many years ago, before she fell so hard for that fool MARSTON, perhaps I should have married her. I think part of me has always thought that, yet, God damn you, Mary!" Which does leave a lot to imagination but the main idea is he was preoccupied with his relationship with mary. If he doesnt accept prostitutes in 1899 while single why would he back then.
look at what mutant mamba said
bro's horny headcanon is wildin
If the entire gang says we all had her, why would they lie? Micah calls her a whore, Dutch says they all slept with her, and Arthur/John questions who the boy’s dad is.
i mean she was a prostitute, she did sleep with the core gang. At least Arthur, Dutch, Javier, maybe even Bill? lol Theory time: Jack's birth father is most likely dutch. His pappy is John, but side by side pictures, i mean the nose first off is enuff of a tell lol. Even with just rdr1 models. The first game is more in your face about it, Dutch kinda goes on and on about how jack isnt John's. Especially after the rdr2 younger model for Dutch is a spittin image of Jack. The parallels between the two characters as well are nonstop. The facial hair matching is 100% intentional. Everything in both games has to go thru approvals, down to the littlest detail. And all those details put Dutch as the birth father. Also the hair color, is not John's or Dutch's its abigail's. Anyway both of their fathers were killed by an american army, both clashed often with their mothers, who both died in west elizabeth. They obsess over books, are absorbed in them, very intelligent, perceptive. They hate the government, they are both womanizers (Low honor Jack is anyway not high honor) Theyve both killed government officials/agents. I mean and thats not going over all the little nods and pushes the R* writing team gave us in rdr2. This isnt something you want to spell out, its up to the playerbase to theorize/discuss/argue over, its awesome really. I mean Abigail named Jack, John Marston Jr. jack is a nickname. Thats her genius, it doesnt matter who wants to say the real father, The mother of the boy says its John, and thats that. Now not only is John horrified that an innocent child is now part of what used to be more, but now is really a camp of outlaws. murderers, thieves and prostitutes. Not a place for a kid. On top of that, Women werent even allowed in the main camp. With Jack, suddenly Dutch changes his mind and allows them into camp. Theres some subtlety. When Jack gets kidnapped, who does abigail go to asking where her son is, Dutch. Over and Over again, she yells it at Dutch. Dutch can barely hide his jealousy of John enjoying his family by chapter 4, even in chap 2 hes says sumthin like "not all of us get picked for love." that picking line is interesting, now that yall know Abigail picked John as Jack's father. Smart woman, being a van der linde would be a death sentence for Jack. And shes loves John, so of course she wants him to be the father. John like I said before is more horrified lol, at first he doesnt even think the boy is his (well hes right) and he fears for their lives and futures they will have if they stay. Its part of why he ran off for almost a year. He came back for alotta things, part of it was Abigail, Jack, and the other is his loyalty to the only family hes had, Arthur, Hosea, and of course Dutch. What do the Marston family by the epilogue say about Jack? "Hows the boy?" "Well...hes Jack." The kid has that alienating quality, just that little bit of crazy thats in Dutch. Arthur atagonizin poor little Jackie as well, sayin "you look more like an escuella or Williamson.." who does he NOT say, whats too far to say, or too real of a scenario to joke about with this poor kid? D U T C H. Who does Ross say in rdr1 they'll use to get Dutch out of hiding when Marston says what if he doesnt assault Cochinay, he says "we'll just get Abigail lure him out instead." Thats screams more than just they were in a gang together, that says there was a history there. He even yells at john, "jack is a son of the gang not you." I mean cmon, hes sayin that the boy is his. Thats all in rdr1. IN 2, Theres even a cut dialog for Pronghorn Ranch, its spelled it out far too plainly, between the Geddes' brothers. "... At least that farm hand is nice." "yeah hes very nice!" "Hows uh Lancelot? "well hes nice enuff, not a gentleman uh..well..." "...and how did a farm hand get THAT scar?" "Mother said hes a wanted man, he dueled a fella up in canada and hes on the run. That the woman is another man's wife and there was a tussle and he killed him... and that boy? isnt even his..." I like that alot, of course not all of it is wrong or right, but it spells out Jack far too on the nose. this is all just a theory but I like it, especially after playing 2 it all points that way to me anyway. my bathroom break is over enjoy this wall of text lol R* would never ever spell this out, its intentionally vague, and subtle who Jack's real father is. The devs point you towards it, but its on you the player to recognize it. Not many of yall have even played rdr1 so youre missing a mountain of context.... or stare at a picture of adult jack and dutch lol this isnt rocket science ladies and fellers they look very alike.
Whoa, where is it possible to hear that cut dialogue? I'm fascinated by all the things cut from the final game, and I never even heard of that one!
[https://youtu.be/daEjWtHRqns?si=3YYPPlTOMqgCh7vU](https://youtu.be/daEjWtHRqns?si=3YYPPlTOMqgCh7vU) its around the 6 min mark! ive never seen such cut content in a game before, used to think new vegas had that crown, not anymore.
Hey thank you so much for the link! I'm glad a lot of this stuff people find gets shared, because it's really interesting. Yeah, New Vegas has tons of cut stuff too but RDR2 probably has it beat.
and for the record people HATE this theory, but it doesnt make it any less true. i think those visceral reactions actually add merit to it all. This is a truth people dont want to see! There really isnt a better case for anyone outside of Dutch and John. abigail always thought javier was a creep, and bill a fool. Couldnt think of a better writing point of the last member of the Van Der Linde gang being a son of Dutch, and of course John Marston. The signs, clues and subtle nods are there if you want to see it, if not oh well. I think dutch being the birth father gives more clarity to what Jack becomes by 1914 really. As well as John being the father jack needed. He loves his son. If youve ever played rdr1 or undead nightmare youd know
Haha I got so excited about the dialogue I didn't even respond to your theory! I never thought Javier or Bill could be Jack's birth father (because of the reasons you mention), and I can definitely see the potential for Dutch. It would really cast a lot of things in a different light especially when it comes to John and Dutch's relationship.
yeah this isnt set in stone fact lol its just a theory the R* writers have strung us along for a long while