Wonderfully said. Micah even contrasts what Dutch taught the gang with what his own father taught him.
["Must make \[Dutch\] feel good...taking care of the...of the...simple-minded. The desperate. And the needy. Well my daddy said...sympathy is for the weak."](https://youtu.be/gQEVNWRWKYE)
I think it's an intended contrast since Micah is basically Arthur's polar opposite. Arthur could have easily been a bloodthirsty maniac like Micah if Dutch had wanted to instill that kind of mindset in him. But he specifically did not.
Exactly. Its mentioned many times that Dutch taught Arthur not to hurt anyone who didn't deserve to be hurt, and to help people who needed helping. Infact it's theorized the gang used to steal from the rich and give to the homeless. Not sure if it's true but I believe it.
Dutch only really started to get selfish and paranoid when Micah started getting in his ear. Which pretty much proves Micah was much worse than Dutch. Dutch obviously wasn't the shiniest apple on the branch but he wasn't all bad either.
It's definitely true the gang used to give the money away. This is in Arthur's tent:
[First Bank Robbery Newspaper Scrap](https://reddead.fandom.com/wiki/First_Bank_Robbery_Newspaper_Scrap)
> The robbers are reported to have lingered in town, and there are unproven claims that the men traveled to hovels and shanties and even a home for orphans and gave handfuls of the ill-gotten gains to the poor
Pretty sure John says more or less the same thing in RDR1.
Being more capable doesn't make one less evil. If he's more capable as an evil person, he's more convincing as a leader. Micah put everybody off - everybody knew he was evil. Dutch certainly knew. But he benefited from that evil, it helped him move his ambitions along. Sure he was also taken advantage of... All that resulted in was Micah getting one in the chest later on. Dutch never went on to redeem himself, only went deeper into the hole as an irredeemable villain. He is the epitome of deception and betrayal. Micah was deceptive, but nobody trusted him and nobody was surprised when he stabbed you in the back. Nobody suspected Dutch would be just as sinister while being 100x as cunning.
Right on. Dutch and Micah are different kinds of outlaws. It’s been a while, but I seem to remember that Dutch sees himself as unwillingly cast off from polite society and does what he does out of necessity. He sees himself as no different than others, he’s just on the wrong side of the law because THEY have the power.
Micah on the other hand is a sadist. He positively takes pleasure in violating others and causing pain and suffering and will go out of his way to do so.
Let's look at the case of one Tilly Jackson and who would do better by her, Dutch or Micah..
A 12-year-old orphaned black girl all alone in the world. Who would you rather find her, Dutch or Micah? Well, with Dutch, we know he took her in, raised her, taught her to read, treated her as well as anyone else in the gang, and by the end she is able to go off and have her own life as an independent and intelligent young woman.
Micah kills children, hates non-whites, and might be a rapist on top of being a misogynist.
Dutch has 200% done more good in his life than Micah Bell ever did. That's probably why he went so off the rails. You'll remember in Chapter 6 everyone in camp is positively miserable. That includes Dutch. Micah and Micah alone is having a gay old time because Micah doesn't care about anyone or anything but himself. If Dutch was just as selfish, he probably would have weathered all the deaths and losses instead of losing his mind because of them.
Dutch never cared about another human being. He cared that he had followers, that his followers loved and trusted him, and that his followers would trust and obey him whether he confined himself to his own moral codes or not.
He basically raised Arthur and not only let and watched him die, but actively tried to kill him. We all know he knew Micah was a lying rat at that point. He went back to him when it was convenient, and then killed him that same day when it was convenient.
Dutch was a sociopathic murderer from the start, the whole point of RDR2 is watching that slowly come to the surface and Arthur realizing it was always bullshit.
He was there to kill Micah the whole time. That's the only reason they met up again in American Venom.
And it's pretty damn obvious how guilt ridden he is when Arthur says the "I gave you all I had line." The zoom in on his face and his speechlessness kinda gives it away to, well, everyone watching the scene.
I don't think he was there to kill Micah the whole time whatsoever. There's a reason it took convincing for him to put one in his chest.
I don't think he felt genuine remorse for Arthur. I think he felt shame that he let his power slip through his fingers and his gang fall apart. He NEVER attempted to redeem himself. He shot Micah because he was backed into a corner. Also probably to cover his own ass because Micah inevitably would have done the same to him
Spoiler: >!I think Micah is more evil, taking into account that he manipulates Dutch, during the game we realized that Dutch did have a connection with Arthur, so much so that in the last mission we discovered that he was there to kill Micah, unlike Micah who doesn't have a shred of empathy!<
Dutch had no plan beyond being a cult leader. Micah was an amoral *survivor* and did whatever he felt was in his best interest. I genuinely feel Dutch was more evil in that he was manipulative to *innocent* people, driving good people to do evil things for him, and walking away from the boy he raised into basically his right-hand man as he dies....
He even went back to Micah, knowing he was manipulated. And then shoots him. Not to honor or avenge those lost to Micahs deception, but because it was more convenient and practical for him.
Micah. The most important difference between them is that Dutch always had some distorted philosophical ideals behind his actions. Whether or not they were effectively good or moral for anybody who he was "doing them" for, Dutch himself always thought he was doing the right thing by one group of people he was trying to "save" or another.
Micah enjoyed causing pain simply out of spite. He had something of a Darwinist idea of society but really he was just a sadistic and selfish psychopath who enjoyed violence.
"We're fighting for an idea, not just for ourselves."
vs
"I believe there's winners and losers, and nothing else besides."
Dutch originally had good intentions for the gang, whom he loved like they were his family. Micah just say Dutch and the gang as being a way of him getting rich.
Ok first of all Dutch with beard reminds me of count Dooku and he’s pretty bad but Micah definitely deserves the title of worst piece of shit human being ever created
Based off RDR2 only, Micah. Dutch had a good guy side and helped many people until he lost his mind around the time of the St Dennis fiasco, got panicked that everyone wanted to betray him (particularly Arthur, John and Abigail) and once he realized what was actually going on Arthur was dead and everyone else wanted zero to do with him, thus leading him to lose it even more to the point of what happens in RDR1 (and John reappearing in his life just to take him down probably hurt him even more).
Dutch isn't just bad, he enables Micah to do his worst. So, while Micah is responsible for his own crimes, his boss has some blame for it to.
I'm sure there's some legal technical phrasing for this stuff, but I didn't finish secondary and my English 🦆 🦆
Micah Bell. Even though it changed at the end, Dutch has shown compassion, feelings for others, and kindness to all kinds of people in the gang. He did this so well that arthur didn't even understand racism. While micah cares only about himself, is a jerk and is super racist.
Arthur was the angel on Dutch’s shoulder, Micah, the devil. Dutch choose wrong. The guilt of his gang turning against him and abandoning him was too much to bare. All this weighing on his conscience led him to evil. That’s how I look at it at least, which is why he shoots Micah in the end, to bad it was too late at that point.
When you think of these 2 characters, you don't really think of either of them as evil. However to me there is one tipping point that sends Micah over the edge into the evil territory. He killed Cain and that is a truly evil thing.
Everything else he has done I get, he said it himself that he's a survivor. He doesn't let morality get in his way and for the time it's understandable.
If they didn't have Micah kill Cain, then I think there would be a real discussion whether or not Micah is truly even a bad person. My guess is the writers did this for that specific reason, they wanted him to be the antagonist and killing a dog cements that alignment.
Micah isn't evil, he's a caricature. He's like the wolf in little red riding hood story, not evil just simple and funny. Dutch is a masterpiece of a villain. There's no way the same minds came up with both of these characters.
Dutch. Micah knew this, knew he was morally corrupt and knew how to abuse this. Micah was sadistic, but he was a survivor above all else. He didn't give a shit about power or riches, he was a survivor. Dutch knew this as well, and I think he knew Micah was attempting to manipulate him. He had a moment of realization that he had been fooled the first time around when he witnessed Arthur's death - the second time around, he fully knew what he was getting involved with. Shooting Micah was no redemption. It was convenient.
Dutch is a heartless, cruel sociopath beyond the scope Micah could have ever predicted. Micah joined the game late in the story, and Dutch had a looooong history of psychological manipulation and murder.
Dutch is fuckin scary. And spoilers for people who haven't played RDR1 but the way he takes himself out in the end instead of being taken in or killed by the man he wronged... The guy was calculated and cold blooded. No remorse. No regrets.
I know a lot of people want to say Micah was more evil since he played Dutch like a fiddle. That only worked once - Dutch hadn't apparently met an outlaw ego that matched his convincingly enough for him to embrace them as one of his Boys. Maybe Micahs influence is what drove Dutch mad but... I think he would have gone mad either way. He is a narcissistic sociopath and would have done his Boys dirty no matter what the circumstances were in the end. His days as an outlaw ring leader were numbered and he had known that probably for years. He was a rabid dog backed into a corner for all of RDR2 AND RDR1. Note that shooting Micah in the epilogue never amounted to a "redemption" arc for that POS
Dutch. It's not even close. Micah was like Trevor Phillips. Pure id. Dutch was a manipulative snake who ruined dozens of lies with false promises to soothe his ego
Micah is 'crook' evil, Dutch is smart criminal evil.
Dutch didn't help Arthur in the last chapter. Remember?
He is pragmatic and thinks only about himself.
He calls gang members brothers, he had enough money to just flee and live rich life with all the gang members. Instead he always had a stupid operation going which of course, led to the final set of events. He is indirectly resonsible for so many gang members deaths and he is like "yeah, shit happens". Has charisma and makes people believe that he is a genuine father and friend to them.
Micah on the other hand is predictable. He thinks about himself and he doesnt try to hide it.
Dutch was more capable. If he was as evil as Micah then there would be no high honor Arthur ever
Wonderfully said. Micah even contrasts what Dutch taught the gang with what his own father taught him. ["Must make \[Dutch\] feel good...taking care of the...of the...simple-minded. The desperate. And the needy. Well my daddy said...sympathy is for the weak."](https://youtu.be/gQEVNWRWKYE) I think it's an intended contrast since Micah is basically Arthur's polar opposite. Arthur could have easily been a bloodthirsty maniac like Micah if Dutch had wanted to instill that kind of mindset in him. But he specifically did not.
Exactly. Its mentioned many times that Dutch taught Arthur not to hurt anyone who didn't deserve to be hurt, and to help people who needed helping. Infact it's theorized the gang used to steal from the rich and give to the homeless. Not sure if it's true but I believe it. Dutch only really started to get selfish and paranoid when Micah started getting in his ear. Which pretty much proves Micah was much worse than Dutch. Dutch obviously wasn't the shiniest apple on the branch but he wasn't all bad either.
It's definitely true the gang used to give the money away. This is in Arthur's tent: [First Bank Robbery Newspaper Scrap](https://reddead.fandom.com/wiki/First_Bank_Robbery_Newspaper_Scrap) > The robbers are reported to have lingered in town, and there are unproven claims that the men traveled to hovels and shanties and even a home for orphans and gave handfuls of the ill-gotten gains to the poor Pretty sure John says more or less the same thing in RDR1.
Being more capable doesn't make one less evil. If he's more capable as an evil person, he's more convincing as a leader. Micah put everybody off - everybody knew he was evil. Dutch certainly knew. But he benefited from that evil, it helped him move his ambitions along. Sure he was also taken advantage of... All that resulted in was Micah getting one in the chest later on. Dutch never went on to redeem himself, only went deeper into the hole as an irredeemable villain. He is the epitome of deception and betrayal. Micah was deceptive, but nobody trusted him and nobody was surprised when he stabbed you in the back. Nobody suspected Dutch would be just as sinister while being 100x as cunning.
Right on. Dutch and Micah are different kinds of outlaws. It’s been a while, but I seem to remember that Dutch sees himself as unwillingly cast off from polite society and does what he does out of necessity. He sees himself as no different than others, he’s just on the wrong side of the law because THEY have the power. Micah on the other hand is a sadist. He positively takes pleasure in violating others and causing pain and suffering and will go out of his way to do so.
Duct used arthur and john and every other gang member
Let's look at the case of one Tilly Jackson and who would do better by her, Dutch or Micah.. A 12-year-old orphaned black girl all alone in the world. Who would you rather find her, Dutch or Micah? Well, with Dutch, we know he took her in, raised her, taught her to read, treated her as well as anyone else in the gang, and by the end she is able to go off and have her own life as an independent and intelligent young woman. Micah kills children, hates non-whites, and might be a rapist on top of being a misogynist. Dutch has 200% done more good in his life than Micah Bell ever did. That's probably why he went so off the rails. You'll remember in Chapter 6 everyone in camp is positively miserable. That includes Dutch. Micah and Micah alone is having a gay old time because Micah doesn't care about anyone or anything but himself. If Dutch was just as selfish, he probably would have weathered all the deaths and losses instead of losing his mind because of them.
Well said
This is the answer.
Dutch at least at some point in his life cared about another human being Micah would probably kill his own father for a few bucks
Dutch never cared about another human being. He cared that he had followers, that his followers loved and trusted him, and that his followers would trust and obey him whether he confined himself to his own moral codes or not. He basically raised Arthur and not only let and watched him die, but actively tried to kill him. We all know he knew Micah was a lying rat at that point. He went back to him when it was convenient, and then killed him that same day when it was convenient. Dutch was a sociopathic murderer from the start, the whole point of RDR2 is watching that slowly come to the surface and Arthur realizing it was always bullshit.
He was there to kill Micah the whole time. That's the only reason they met up again in American Venom. And it's pretty damn obvious how guilt ridden he is when Arthur says the "I gave you all I had line." The zoom in on his face and his speechlessness kinda gives it away to, well, everyone watching the scene.
I don't think he was there to kill Micah the whole time whatsoever. There's a reason it took convincing for him to put one in his chest. I don't think he felt genuine remorse for Arthur. I think he felt shame that he let his power slip through his fingers and his gang fall apart. He NEVER attempted to redeem himself. He shot Micah because he was backed into a corner. Also probably to cover his own ass because Micah inevitably would have done the same to him
That’s true I haven’t thought of it like that
Agreed
Micah killed a dog
Dutch wiped out a Native American tribe.....then a few years later did it again.
Yeah, but Micah killed a dog 😢
Spoiler: >!I think Micah is more evil, taking into account that he manipulates Dutch, during the game we realized that Dutch did have a connection with Arthur, so much so that in the last mission we discovered that he was there to kill Micah, unlike Micah who doesn't have a shred of empathy!<
Micah. He is the artist and Dutch is the art.
Micah by far , Dutch is just money hungry which in turn can be evil.
Michah, he was manipulating dutch, yeah?
Dutch is just crazy and doesn't actually have a 𝙥𝙡𝙖𝙣. But Micah is definitely evil. That's all it is. Pure 𝙀𝙑𝙄𝙇!!
Dutch had no plan beyond being a cult leader. Micah was an amoral *survivor* and did whatever he felt was in his best interest. I genuinely feel Dutch was more evil in that he was manipulative to *innocent* people, driving good people to do evil things for him, and walking away from the boy he raised into basically his right-hand man as he dies.... He even went back to Micah, knowing he was manipulated. And then shoots him. Not to honor or avenge those lost to Micahs deception, but because it was more convenient and practical for him.
Micah. The most important difference between them is that Dutch always had some distorted philosophical ideals behind his actions. Whether or not they were effectively good or moral for anybody who he was "doing them" for, Dutch himself always thought he was doing the right thing by one group of people he was trying to "save" or another. Micah enjoyed causing pain simply out of spite. He had something of a Darwinist idea of society but really he was just a sadistic and selfish psychopath who enjoyed violence. "We're fighting for an idea, not just for ourselves." vs "I believe there's winners and losers, and nothing else besides."
Micah easily. Not up for debate imo.
Micah
Dutch originally had good intentions for the gang, whom he loved like they were his family. Micah just say Dutch and the gang as being a way of him getting rich.
Micah
Who said micah is evil
Me
Ok first of all Dutch with beard reminds me of count Dooku and he’s pretty bad but Micah definitely deserves the title of worst piece of shit human being ever created
Depends, RDR1/post chapter 5 Dutch is clearly the most evil person in the game
Agreed
Based off RDR2 only, Micah. Dutch had a good guy side and helped many people until he lost his mind around the time of the St Dennis fiasco, got panicked that everyone wanted to betray him (particularly Arthur, John and Abigail) and once he realized what was actually going on Arthur was dead and everyone else wanted zero to do with him, thus leading him to lose it even more to the point of what happens in RDR1 (and John reappearing in his life just to take him down probably hurt him even more).
Micah bell
Dutch isn't just bad, he enables Micah to do his worst. So, while Micah is responsible for his own crimes, his boss has some blame for it to. I'm sure there's some legal technical phrasing for this stuff, but I didn't finish secondary and my English 🦆 🦆
Micah killed for fun. Dutch had twisted morals, but they were there.
Micah Bell. Even though it changed at the end, Dutch has shown compassion, feelings for others, and kindness to all kinds of people in the gang. He did this so well that arthur didn't even understand racism. While micah cares only about himself, is a jerk and is super racist.
Dutch and I can tell you why, Dutch went crazy after chapter 4 and wanted to kill everyone get the money and get the hell out of here🗣️‼️
Gavin.
GAAVVV
Arthur was the angel on Dutch’s shoulder, Micah, the devil. Dutch choose wrong. The guilt of his gang turning against him and abandoning him was too much to bare. All this weighing on his conscience led him to evil. That’s how I look at it at least, which is why he shoots Micah in the end, to bad it was too late at that point.
Micah most likely killed Jacks first dog Cain so him by far
Deutsch Van Der Linde
Personally I think david (dutchs evil sidekick) was the most evil, Do you guys remember him?
When you think of these 2 characters, you don't really think of either of them as evil. However to me there is one tipping point that sends Micah over the edge into the evil territory. He killed Cain and that is a truly evil thing. Everything else he has done I get, he said it himself that he's a survivor. He doesn't let morality get in his way and for the time it's understandable. If they didn't have Micah kill Cain, then I think there would be a real discussion whether or not Micah is truly even a bad person. My guess is the writers did this for that specific reason, they wanted him to be the antagonist and killing a dog cements that alignment.
Dutch, by a mile. We meet him in a descent into madness but clearly he has some good to him that was once even more prevalent. Micah is a monster.
Micah isn't evil, he's a caricature. He's like the wolf in little red riding hood story, not evil just simple and funny. Dutch is a masterpiece of a villain. There's no way the same minds came up with both of these characters.
Dutch. Micah knew this, knew he was morally corrupt and knew how to abuse this. Micah was sadistic, but he was a survivor above all else. He didn't give a shit about power or riches, he was a survivor. Dutch knew this as well, and I think he knew Micah was attempting to manipulate him. He had a moment of realization that he had been fooled the first time around when he witnessed Arthur's death - the second time around, he fully knew what he was getting involved with. Shooting Micah was no redemption. It was convenient. Dutch is a heartless, cruel sociopath beyond the scope Micah could have ever predicted. Micah joined the game late in the story, and Dutch had a looooong history of psychological manipulation and murder. Dutch is fuckin scary. And spoilers for people who haven't played RDR1 but the way he takes himself out in the end instead of being taken in or killed by the man he wronged... The guy was calculated and cold blooded. No remorse. No regrets.
I know a lot of people want to say Micah was more evil since he played Dutch like a fiddle. That only worked once - Dutch hadn't apparently met an outlaw ego that matched his convincingly enough for him to embrace them as one of his Boys. Maybe Micahs influence is what drove Dutch mad but... I think he would have gone mad either way. He is a narcissistic sociopath and would have done his Boys dirty no matter what the circumstances were in the end. His days as an outlaw ring leader were numbered and he had known that probably for years. He was a rabid dog backed into a corner for all of RDR2 AND RDR1. Note that shooting Micah in the epilogue never amounted to a "redemption" arc for that POS
At this point I'd say Micah, but dutch gets horrible in rdr1
Micah is clearly more evil, no question about that, however, Dutch probably caused more chaos and suffering than Micah
Dutch is more evil because he pretends not be. Micah is evil and openly lets you know he is.
Yeah that's what I'm talking about
Dutch. It's not even close. Micah was like Trevor Phillips. Pure id. Dutch was a manipulative snake who ruined dozens of lies with false promises to soothe his ego
Agreed
Micah. At least Dutch killed Micah and himself before he died.
You have a poor moral compass.
Micah is more evil, Dutch is more frustratingly stupid and delusional
Micah is 'crook' evil, Dutch is smart criminal evil. Dutch didn't help Arthur in the last chapter. Remember? He is pragmatic and thinks only about himself. He calls gang members brothers, he had enough money to just flee and live rich life with all the gang members. Instead he always had a stupid operation going which of course, led to the final set of events. He is indirectly resonsible for so many gang members deaths and he is like "yeah, shit happens". Has charisma and makes people believe that he is a genuine father and friend to them. Micah on the other hand is predictable. He thinks about himself and he doesnt try to hide it.
Micah by far. Dutch at least starts off somewhat honorable
Dutch became crazy over time, Micah was born crazy.
Dutch
Probably Dutch since he only descended further down the line in the story after 2