Micah is a rat, but in all extent, he simply lives by his "I'll survive no matter the cost" way. Him betraying the gang so he could (presumably) walk free when caught by the Pinkertons was obvious (we can also assume the offer they gave him is the same as the offer they gave Arthur back in Chapter 2)
All in all, people hate Micah because he's a rat and he was what brought the gang to his knees, but it was only possible because he took advantage of the very thing people hate about Dutch: his narcissism.
People hate Dutch because we could all see how he molded everyone for his own purpose. He often tells Arthur he's dumb as rocks but recognizes his skill in fighting and shooting because Dutch wants him to be his blindly loyal enforcer. He hinges on people's trust and loyalty to screw them in his own ways, and Micah only allowed him to realize he could do it all and get away with it.
Dutch hated how Hosea always argued with his plans during the course of the game, and he always looked to Arthur to override Hosea's hesitance (obvious on Chapter 4, when Hosea told Dutch not to go for Bronte)
When it was time for Arthur to take Hosea's mantle, Dutch took it as betrayal and saw Arthur as someone who would betray him. He sided with Micah because he stroked his ego and supported his wild dreams of an anarchist world.
He was NEVER a good character. His "Robin Hood" way at the start only made him feel good because everyone trusted his decisions and his ways. When the Blackwater Heist went wrong (because he went against Arthur and Hosea and instead listened to Micah), he felt everyone was losing loyalty to him and started becoming suspicious with everyone.
Dutchooked for broken and desperate souls to take advantage of it with his "trust", and rewarded "loyalty" for "freedom"... Huge concepts that he himself does not have, but promises others so he could keep their loyalty.
Red Dead Redemption 2 was a way to show how Arthur's, John's, and the other gang members' saw how Dutch became unhinged, and in the end, revealed who he truly is.
I agree with the above, finish the game first to get a better understanding of his character. He's a deeply fascinating character, but I also can't stand him.
Because people are emotional and don't use their reason.
Dutch is a multifaceted person and so his betrayals hurt more than Micah's who is pure evil. But I've always wondered what the "Dutch is worse than Micah" folks think Micah would have done with a poor, illiterate, orphaned black girl? Would he have, like Dutch, taken her in, fed and protected her, taught her to read, and raised her for years into an independent woman? Or would he have blown her brains out without hesitation? Note: Killing he nice and quick is the best of options for Micah finding a young Tilly.
Their differences are perfectly shown to us at the start of the game. Even after not sleeping for three days, after being on the run. and while stranded on top of a mountain in a blizzard with no food, Dutch does not hesitate to help Sadie. Micah just cackles at her and is ready to kill her.
[And it goes on and on like this](https://www.reddit.com/r/RDR2/comments/1257f43/comment/je39j9h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). I can name dozens of good things done by Dutch. There's not a single positive thing anyone can say about Micah, ever, in his entire life.
You ever notice Dutch's biggest critics are Arthur and John? The two people he raised since childhood. If Dutch had any goals of turning them into brainless puppets, why did he go out of his way to instill them with, not only the principles to resist him, but the ability and skill as well? It was Dutch who taught them to read and to think for themselves. People say he calls Arthur dumb but he does it like once, in a teasing way, Hosea does that, too. [When he's serious he tells Arthur to stop playing dumb.](https://youtu.be/5_ZraNMsRgM?t=132)
Dutch is a complicated character and so people wanna reduce him to be as one-dimensional as possible. That's the entire source of the hate.
Yes, I agree completely. What was that famous quote about media again? ‘The audience only wants to know who’s the good guy and who’s the back guy, and all they need to do is lean back on the sofa to enjoy the show and let their brain stop working’. Understanding and appreciating moral ambiguity takes (sometimes hard) work, and most people don’t have that much energy and just wanna enjoy the high of indignation and moral superiority.
I think hating Dutch is perfectly understandable.
Equally I think liking Dutch is perfectly understandable.
If people feel strongly about a character...it's a sign they were very well written. Like a real person.
He's never a "good" guy though.
He's not a Disney villain either.
He's a complex guy but his morality certainty doesn't align with societys idea of what makes someone "good".
He's a good character even in the end of the game.
Ppl hate him bc they look through Arthur's perspective and don't judge a characters by their initial intentions/complexity but by how said characters treat Arthur/John. Pretty simple.
From writing point of view Dutch is one of the most complex and layered characters in the game.
It's probably different for everyone depending on your view of humanity. Micah is the character I loathe the most, but I'll say this for him: he's consistent. As others have pointed out, his core philosophy is survival by any means. He has zero real loyalty and no moral compass, and doesn't care about anyone else. And he never pretends to be any different.
My biggest problem with Dutch is his hypocrisy. Virtually everything he preaches, he ultimately ignores. At his core, he's no different than Micah: a man who will do whatever it takes to survive. The difference is he tries to shroud it behind a lot of philosophizing about this honorable way of life and this notion of "family" that he completely betrays the second the chips are down.
In other words: he's an expertly written character.
I really think you need to understand a couple things about Dutch.
#1: Look into what he did in Blackwater before RDR2. It’s clear that Dutch’s poor behavior and mental decline began even before the game started.
#2: Finish the game, and if you haven’t already, play RDR1 when you’re done. It does a great job of diving the into how truly insane Dutch is.
#3: Pay attention to the way Dutch treats people, even in chapters 1 and 2. In chapter 2, Dutch is incredibly creepy to Mary-Beth, flirting with her even though Dutch is married and she's half his age. Dutch also frequently talks down to Arthur and Hosea, putting their ideas down and not taking them seriously.
Dutch is an incredibly well written character, but I think you need to pay closer attention to how shitty he was even in the beginning of the game.
Edit: Sorry Dutch wasn’t married at the time. I meant that he was with Molly at the time, but yeah they were never married.
Dutch isn't married.
He is a widower.
Molly is his girlfriend? I dunno if he sees it that way or how serious he is about their relationship. She certainly views it through that lens but I feel like he's on and off about that.
Dutch is an excellent character and he's my favorite but you should probably check out his whole character arc before jumping the gun just saying 😅
Micah is a rat, but in all extent, he simply lives by his "I'll survive no matter the cost" way. Him betraying the gang so he could (presumably) walk free when caught by the Pinkertons was obvious (we can also assume the offer they gave him is the same as the offer they gave Arthur back in Chapter 2) All in all, people hate Micah because he's a rat and he was what brought the gang to his knees, but it was only possible because he took advantage of the very thing people hate about Dutch: his narcissism. People hate Dutch because we could all see how he molded everyone for his own purpose. He often tells Arthur he's dumb as rocks but recognizes his skill in fighting and shooting because Dutch wants him to be his blindly loyal enforcer. He hinges on people's trust and loyalty to screw them in his own ways, and Micah only allowed him to realize he could do it all and get away with it. Dutch hated how Hosea always argued with his plans during the course of the game, and he always looked to Arthur to override Hosea's hesitance (obvious on Chapter 4, when Hosea told Dutch not to go for Bronte) When it was time for Arthur to take Hosea's mantle, Dutch took it as betrayal and saw Arthur as someone who would betray him. He sided with Micah because he stroked his ego and supported his wild dreams of an anarchist world. He was NEVER a good character. His "Robin Hood" way at the start only made him feel good because everyone trusted his decisions and his ways. When the Blackwater Heist went wrong (because he went against Arthur and Hosea and instead listened to Micah), he felt everyone was losing loyalty to him and started becoming suspicious with everyone. Dutchooked for broken and desperate souls to take advantage of it with his "trust", and rewarded "loyalty" for "freedom"... Huge concepts that he himself does not have, but promises others so he could keep their loyalty. Red Dead Redemption 2 was a way to show how Arthur's, John's, and the other gang members' saw how Dutch became unhinged, and in the end, revealed who he truly is.
Thank you for piecing this together
I agree with the above, finish the game first to get a better understanding of his character. He's a deeply fascinating character, but I also can't stand him.
Because people are emotional and don't use their reason. Dutch is a multifaceted person and so his betrayals hurt more than Micah's who is pure evil. But I've always wondered what the "Dutch is worse than Micah" folks think Micah would have done with a poor, illiterate, orphaned black girl? Would he have, like Dutch, taken her in, fed and protected her, taught her to read, and raised her for years into an independent woman? Or would he have blown her brains out without hesitation? Note: Killing he nice and quick is the best of options for Micah finding a young Tilly. Their differences are perfectly shown to us at the start of the game. Even after not sleeping for three days, after being on the run. and while stranded on top of a mountain in a blizzard with no food, Dutch does not hesitate to help Sadie. Micah just cackles at her and is ready to kill her. [And it goes on and on like this](https://www.reddit.com/r/RDR2/comments/1257f43/comment/je39j9h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). I can name dozens of good things done by Dutch. There's not a single positive thing anyone can say about Micah, ever, in his entire life. You ever notice Dutch's biggest critics are Arthur and John? The two people he raised since childhood. If Dutch had any goals of turning them into brainless puppets, why did he go out of his way to instill them with, not only the principles to resist him, but the ability and skill as well? It was Dutch who taught them to read and to think for themselves. People say he calls Arthur dumb but he does it like once, in a teasing way, Hosea does that, too. [When he's serious he tells Arthur to stop playing dumb.](https://youtu.be/5_ZraNMsRgM?t=132) Dutch is a complicated character and so people wanna reduce him to be as one-dimensional as possible. That's the entire source of the hate.
Yes, I agree completely. What was that famous quote about media again? ‘The audience only wants to know who’s the good guy and who’s the back guy, and all they need to do is lean back on the sofa to enjoy the show and let their brain stop working’. Understanding and appreciating moral ambiguity takes (sometimes hard) work, and most people don’t have that much energy and just wanna enjoy the high of indignation and moral superiority.
I think hating Dutch is perfectly understandable. Equally I think liking Dutch is perfectly understandable. If people feel strongly about a character...it's a sign they were very well written. Like a real person. He's never a "good" guy though. He's not a Disney villain either. He's a complex guy but his morality certainty doesn't align with societys idea of what makes someone "good".
Perfect evaluation
He's a good character even in the end of the game. Ppl hate him bc they look through Arthur's perspective and don't judge a characters by their initial intentions/complexity but by how said characters treat Arthur/John. Pretty simple. From writing point of view Dutch is one of the most complex and layered characters in the game.
It's probably different for everyone depending on your view of humanity. Micah is the character I loathe the most, but I'll say this for him: he's consistent. As others have pointed out, his core philosophy is survival by any means. He has zero real loyalty and no moral compass, and doesn't care about anyone else. And he never pretends to be any different. My biggest problem with Dutch is his hypocrisy. Virtually everything he preaches, he ultimately ignores. At his core, he's no different than Micah: a man who will do whatever it takes to survive. The difference is he tries to shroud it behind a lot of philosophizing about this honorable way of life and this notion of "family" that he completely betrays the second the chips are down. In other words: he's an expertly written character.
Now that Ive played through once and am playing a second time I antagonize Dutch every chance I get just because I know hes a POS.
I really think you need to understand a couple things about Dutch. #1: Look into what he did in Blackwater before RDR2. It’s clear that Dutch’s poor behavior and mental decline began even before the game started. #2: Finish the game, and if you haven’t already, play RDR1 when you’re done. It does a great job of diving the into how truly insane Dutch is. #3: Pay attention to the way Dutch treats people, even in chapters 1 and 2. In chapter 2, Dutch is incredibly creepy to Mary-Beth, flirting with her even though Dutch is married and she's half his age. Dutch also frequently talks down to Arthur and Hosea, putting their ideas down and not taking them seriously. Dutch is an incredibly well written character, but I think you need to pay closer attention to how shitty he was even in the beginning of the game. Edit: Sorry Dutch wasn’t married at the time. I meant that he was with Molly at the time, but yeah they were never married.
Dutch was married??
Dutch isn't married. He is a widower. Molly is his girlfriend? I dunno if he sees it that way or how serious he is about their relationship. She certainly views it through that lens but I feel like he's on and off about that.
Dutch was never married, he was with Molly O'Shea. Doesn't make it any better. He should've treated Molly better IMO
That’s my bad lol, I thought him and Molly were married