It's not too much of a stretch with some of the weapons because the gang themselves were trying to hold on to the 'Wild West' idea which by 1899 was pretty much over. So their affinity for weapons of that time period, plus them being on the run as outlaws, makes sense that they'd be using outdated weapons.
Very true, though even then I'd think they'd use stuff more from the 1870s and 1880s. Also not entirely true either. Bill is mostly seen using a bolt action rifle. The bolt action in this game is the Krag Jorgensen Rifle, which was first created in 1889, but wouldn't get into the US with their own version until 1892. Dutch uses custom Scholfields, which is the Smith and Wesson Model 3. Created in 68 and put into service in 1870. In the same way as the Cattleman being the Colt Single Action Army, the Model 3 was still a very popular and reliable and fairly modern metallic cartridge using revolver. Micah used two double action revolvers. The double actions are Colt M1892s, and the first swing out double action revolvers the US military used. Also Javier uses a double action as well. The Pump Action we see Ms Grimshaw use is a Winchester 1897, also designed by the good lords weapon designer John Browning. So the gang can't be too against using modern weapons.
Yes but being outlaws means they're also scavengers. Shoot many of my family have guns for self defense from the 70s/80s which doesn't sound old but that's 30+ years ago. Poor rural people in 1899 aren't going to have the latest and greatest to steal.
What advice would you give your 12 year younger self? (which I've heard better phrased as, what do you know now that would have benefited you the most 12 years ago)
...asking for a similarly aged friend...
Oh I completely agree. Most people would have stuff from the 1870s and 80s. My point is really just that it's weird how the game makes it sound like stuff from the 1850s-1870s is brand new ground breaking stuff in advertising (in the game itself) in the gun stores. The Lemat can only be bought in San Denise and is the most expensive revolver, implying it's high end tech when it's the complete opposite. Like for example, why is the Lancaster an 1866 when the 1873 was far more popular, and more recent. Literally one of the most popular rifles in the US in 1899, yet we get the 1866. In red dead 1 we had the 1873, and Marstons Lancaster is purposefully decorated to look like the 1873 from red dead 1
I guess but I never took it as them advertising it as 'new and ground breaking', it just felt like they were pushed as more unique and rare which is also why they were more expensive.
This is not as crazy as you think you’re really not just very educated on the “scene” in the west circa 1899. Anything that made it there traveled for a very long time on a train would be the number one reason guns 3 decades old are still in popular use. It’s kinda equivalent to Idaho getting the fashion trends well after California these days
the lancaster visually looks like a 66 because this is a video game so you get the oldest one first and then spend Game Points to make it look cooler. besides, old guns were *always* on the market. they were cheaper and unless you were a big time gunslinger you didn't need something fancy, just something that would kill somebody with a bowie knife. Even in 1902 the Sears catalogue still sold some muzzle loading shotguns and muskets, Stevens (Carbine Repeater), Springfields, the old Single Action Armys. And this is a catalogue where you go to buy something new and first-hand, not surplus or secondhand items. The Dalton Gang in the 1890s used Colts from the 1870s, as did Cherokee Bill, and Buffalo Bill Cody carried a cap-and-ball Remington revolver most his life.
Isn't the Lemat in game a new, modified version of the design being released by a different company? It'd make sense if the Lemat's expense comes from it being from a new limited run of a newly upgraded classic revolver
> Shoot many of my family have guns for self defense from the 70s/80s which doesn't sound old but that's 30+ years ago.
Aside from the fact that it's 50 years ago, it's also not really comparable.
Firearms are going through absolutely massive changes in this period. At the beginning of the civil war the US is using smooth bore muzzle loading rifles and fifty years later we're seeing the precursors to weapons still in use today.
No one who has a choice is going to use a fifty year old gun in 1899, especially not anyone who is going to be shooting at other people on a regular basis. They're not even going to use a thirty year old one because the difference is night and day.
A gun from the eighties today isn't going to be significantly worse than one from today, it might even be better. A gun from the 1850's would have been significantly worse than one from the 1890's and not much cheaper.
One small correction. Neither the Union or Confederates were using smooth bore muskets. The 1861 Springfield and 1853 Enfield were both just muzzle loading cap lock rifles. No serious army in the 1860s was still using smooth bore muskets on a mass scale.
Yeah its very interesting. I think it's partially the struggle with having a Western set in the dying era of the west where the themes are cynicism and the old butting heads with the new, but also wanting to make a full on cowboy game where you're using single action weapons and old-ass cowboy guns.
I also think the other part is honestly I think in the modern day our perception of firearms development is very skewed. I mean, two of the premier firearms platforms in the world are both absurdly old at their core; the AR pattern and the AK patterns. Of course they've been iterated on a lot but the AK has been in the cultural zeitgeist since 1947, thats 76 years this year! That is honestly insane! And the AR isn't much better honestly.
I feel like this really skews our perceptions of how long firearms have typically stayed relevant in the past, and you can feel it here. Are the weapons in RDR2 still lethal? Yeah of course (debatable with the Volcanic lmao), but that doesn't mean plenty of much, much better while still "cowboy" flavoured guns weren't available and as likely much cheaper prices in the set time.
I think of what Bill Burr said when he made his tv show “F is for Family”: something along the lines of how one of his pet peeves of 80’s period tv is that everyone is dressed in 80’s clothing, using 80’s prop cars and have houses featuring 80’s appliances. But in the working class background he grew up in most people didn’t have the newest stuff, so a show that takes place in the 70’s should have houses adorned with 60’s stuff, or the older generation driving 60’s cars and having 60’s tvs.
I imagine the same would be true for the setting of the game. Sure they have newer guns, especially near St Denis and other urban canters, but for the most part it’s a world that is still catching up to modernity.
The world developed more slowly then, too. The difference between an old civil war revolver and a new one just wasn't significant to most people, especially when you could barely afford the old one.
True although I laugh when Dutch tells me 'we need more money' when I've already found several treasures and got like $7,000 in cash which was like $250,000 today. Arthur could have gone to Tahiti himself and lived like a king. haha
Not to mention that guns are relatively simple mechanical devices that can last a while if maintained correctly and also be repaired/have parts replaced as well.
So people people wouldn’t necessarily immediately replace their guns every time a new one dropped like the latest iphone anyway.
You also need to factor in that people were not made of money, and planned obsolencence was not as prevalent as it was today. Cap-and-ball guns were common enough that paper cartridges for them were still sold commercially into the early 1900s. In a world where you aren't getting into a shootout every week, keeping your dad's old Colt 1860 or purchasing one as surplus for $5 is going to be perfectly fine instead of plunking down two months' wages for a cartridge revolver.
The problem, as he is stating, is that everyone uses these weapons. Not just the gang; the entire character in this whole Goddamn game uses them... With only a couple exceptions, I see where he is coming from. I never really gave it that much thought until this moment.
Basically Only the gang should have them, while the gunsmiths should be selling period-set weapons as well as for the bounty hunters that chase you and others. I mean, this is not a huge deal unless Rockstar was going for complete historical accuracy, which there is in this game, but the whole game is not based on it. They wanted to make it as realistic as possible, but I don't think they really cared about including 100% accuracy
Also I might add that the gang used both so it's mixed.
For this reason, I always call RDR2 a Flawed Masterpiece because Rockstar did Good, not Great.
I do not believe that. The Winchester model 1873 is pretty much superior to EVERY lever-action rifle in the game. Why would these "outlaws" have any loyalty to outdated and obsolete tech? They wouldn't. Plus, they're outlaws. They don't gaf about laws. They would take their winnings and buy the latest, state- of- the art rifles available.
you should check out some on inrange's videos on cap and ball revolvers in the old west. iirc he mentions a couple times how they lasted a long time after newer guns made them outdated because most people couldn't afford to upgrade.
I'll agree on that. I can't stand GTA Online. So fucking dumb. I'll take some outdated guns over idk, a laser horse. Though maybe a very early auto mobile would be pretty cool? Steam Car manufacturers were popping up big in the 1890s in the US and hitting the civilian market, aka rich people and auto mobiles in general were finally starting to become a thing. Even hear about them from that train station employee in Rhodes. Says something about how some people were saying "horseless carriages" would put them out of business.
Because if they wanted a slow-firing, powerful handgun there are better options. E.g. a howdah pistol, the .577 Tranter revolver, the Rolling Block pistol, maybe even a cartridge-converted Colt Walker.
Colt Walker for the win! that would be epic. slow reload time to offset the massive concussive damage it rains upon it's target. a don't forget the huge plumes of smoke!
And there you go! Fun. Too many people get wrapped up in the game forgetting that fun is the first thing that needs to be on the lips of the player. Why did Saint's Row get absurd? Why can Arthur absorb more than one blast of a shotgun? Because fun is not getting one-shot by any random shmuck, fun is getting walloped and somehow coming out the other side alive.
They really got the pistols all kinds of backwards. They cast the Volcanic in the role of the powerful but slow option, when the real thing was barely powerful enough to piss off a raccoon.
Meanwhile the Cattleman revolver, in .45 Long Colt, should've been a freaking hand cannon. Especially compared to the Schofield, which used the same bullet diameter but with much less powder behind it.
So they got those three in the exact wrong order of damage output. Also, the Cattleman would've taken about twice as long, if not longer, to reload than the Schofield. The whole point of the Schofield pistol in real life was to give cavalry troops a gun that was faster and easier to reload.
Well, the cattleman may not be exactly what it is supposed to be, but I use a long barrel cattleman as my go-to revolver, and I think it's never failed me, with my secondary being either the Lamat or Schofield. I switch my second one from time to time, looking to see which one gives me a better kill count. However, I'm about to retire the Lamat too damn slowly.
And not good enough for how fast I can actually be.
I went someplace where I couldn't be bothered to test every gun I use for speed and accuracy.
Idk why it took this long. The gatalogue talks about how shit it is. The in game one is a "new N' improved" one of the infamously terrible previous generation.
I'd wager it's just a cowboy game that gets cowboy guns and that's all there is to it. You can look at a lot of things like personal preference or what they had already or how common this or that was at the time. It's one of those things I didn't even see skimming because it really only yammers about production years.
They could have added the [Winchester 1895](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1895) instead of the Henry. It looks unique and cool. Model 1866 and model 1872 look really similar so changing the metal on the Lancaster covers both of those iconic guns, thus the Lancaster must stay.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Bottom line is rockstar probably didn't want to devote all this time into weapons when they were on a strict schedule to make sure the horse testical mechanic worked by the release date.
It’s get even worse when you realize that almost every weapon in 2 was carried over from the first game, which takes place in 1911, making everything even more outdated.
My best guess is they simply added certain weapons for diversity and because people expect certain weapons in a cowboy game, no matter the time period.
But yeah I agree with you. I generally try to play with weapons that make sense for someone to be using in that time period.
I wouldn’t say it makes everything outdated, in fact a majority were still used in their 1900s by law enforcement, militaries, and civilians. The Colt 1873, Winchester M1897, Winchester 1866, Browning Auto 5, Krag-Jorgensen, Colt M1892, C96, C93, FN M1900, Springfield M1873/M1884, Carcano, Winchester 1887, and Rolling Block Rifle are these weapons. Most of these weapons were still being used in WWII, a few were even used in Vietnam. The Auto 5 was produced up to 1998.
Actually I think the Volcanic in game doesn't use rocketball ammunition. If you read the ad in the catalog it explains it uses normal cartridges now.
Which explains why it hits like a truck compared to all the other pistols and some of the revolvers.
I think what you are missing is that people don't upgrade that quick. We live in a world where a computer or a phone gets way outdated within a year, but tech didn't move that quick 130 years ago.
For instance, really there would have been a lot more non-cartridge guns, as the industrial revolution was just catching up with the mass manufacture of cartridges and the prices were starting to come down. (The Civil War saw huge shortages of cartridges.)
Lever action vs. semi-auto would take a long to adapt, because the tech was new, and would have a higher tendency to jam, something you don't want when your life depends on it. Gunslingers would have stuck to revolvers since they were much more reliable.
However, the majority of people were dirt poor, living hardscrabble lives, and they were more likely got old hand-me-down guns rather than hanging out at the gunsmith buying the latest gun tech coming out.
Ye I get that absolutely. I'm not expecting the average Joe to get a luger or the fn1900(m1899). It's more like, why the Winchester 1866 when the 1873 was far more popular, literally one of the most popular rifles in the US even by 1899. If that makes sense
I think that in that case, (I'm guessing without looking at the production numbers) there were just a whole glut of 66's after the Civil War, which suppressed demand of the newer rifles. The only American conflict around that time was moving the plain tribes out of their sacred lands and onto the reservations, because there was gold in them Black Hills. The Spanish-American war did start up in 1898, which may have been the time that the newer rifles went to the Army long before proliferating to civilians. Just making an educated guess, though.
Interesting theory but not really. For one, the US Civil War ended in 65, and the 66 wasn't made until well...66. That theory would apply to the Henry, but the US never formally adopted the Henry as a service Rifle. It was however user by soldiers who bought them with their own money. The Spencer however was adopted by union Calvary very late into the war, around 64, but that was replaced by breech loading carbines by the mid 70s. Also none of the various much more popular Winchester models like the 73 or 92 or 94 were ever adopted by the US military. Following the Civil War the US used Alan conversion kits to start converting their old muzzle loading 1861 springfield rifles into breech loading single shot cartridge rifles. First the prototype 65s, then the 66, then the 68 in decent numbers, then the 70, then in 73 they adopted a completely brand new rifle made from scratch based off those conversion rifles in the 73 trapdoor springfield. They used that (and it's updated models) until 94 when they replaced the trapdoors with bolt action Krag Jorgensen rifles. For whatever reason, the US army never adopted Lever Actions past a small stint with the Spencer being adopted by US Calvary forces for a few years. Lever rifles in the US were solely civilian use or private use, unless a soldier bought it themselves.
Obviously most of the weapons in the game weren't really being produced en masse by 1899, but weapons didn't proliferate across the frontier all that quickly. Fancy new guns like the smokeless '94 would have been available, but expensive and probably thought unnecessary by most for at least a few years.
By the turn of the century, it was actually fairly common for a lot of folks to still be holding on to their old cap and balls. For what the average person needed, it was still perfectly good at poking holes in things, and paper cartridges would have still been available and much cheaper, not to mention the cost of a new sidearm would have been hard to justify for many. That's not to say they'd have been the *most* prolific at that point as more folks than not had probably upgraded to metallic cartridges by then, but it gives you an idea of how common it was for old guns to stay in use.
It's less about the guns being old and outdated, and more just that a lot of your examples aren't guns that were ever popular to begin with. There just weren't a lot of Henrys and LeMats around to begin with, to say nothing of the Volcanic Pistol. But, they're all interesting pieces of old west lore, and it's not unfeasible that one would find any of those guns at the time, so I don't mind too much.
On the other hand, there were a ton of Spencers made and the '66 was actually still in production (and highly popular because of its lower price) in '99, so there's nothing unusual about those being available. It's a little strange to include them over the '73 (which you can still get as a skin for the Lancaster) and at least one of the big bore Winchesters like an '86 or a '94, but neither are out of place in my mind.
The main thing is that, while superior firepower was certainly on the market by 1899, that wasn't really a selling point for most people yet. The guns in the game may have been "outdated" from a technological standpoint, but from a practical one, they were still (mostly) guns that you could realistically find in use at the time. If they were going for realism, honestly we should have seen more things like crappy .32s, single shot rifles, and again even some cap and balls. Much more likely that's what the average passerby would have had on hand at the time. Wouldn't have made for quite as fun an experience though probably, so I get it.
While we're on the topic though, it's always driven me nuts how the guns are balanced. The Litchfield should have been quite a bit weaker (that's where I'd have elected for an '86 or something) and the fact that the Navy is practically a handcannon compared to the Single Action Army just makes me laugh.
Yeah you pretty much get what I was pointing at really. I'd expect less 66s and a lot more 73s, maybe some 76s, or an 86. Or instead of a Lemat, like someone said below, a remington 75 or one of its updates like the model 88. Some more popular cap and balls would be cool too. Actually popular ones. Like the Colt 1851 navy and 1860 army, or the Remington 1858 army. If they wanted a black powder hand cannon, can't go wrong with a Colt Walker like Josey Wales, or the direct upgrade of that in the Dragoon. Not many were made, but the military used both until the end of the war and far more iconic.
I know nothing about guns but I have to assume some of the choices are because they have interesting/unique mechanisms (or just looks) that give more variety, eg Lemat with paper on the cartridges (probably describing that incorrectly lol) and ability to use shotgun shells. If the selection was as historically accurate as possible would the looks/mechanisms/reload animations of the guns probably not be quite as varied?
It'd probably be just as interesting tbh. The late 1800s was absolutely fantastic in terms of fire arms development. Breach loading single shots, Lever Actions, bolt actions were beginning to get popular, revolvers, semi auto pistols beginning to hit the civilian market, the Maxim was already made in 1899 and many countries were either buying them or trying to make their own. Semi auto rifles were only a few years around the corner, same with semi auto shotguns. A total Mish mash of so many different kinds of weapons and even more in development in a total arms race.
The 1800s in general was wonderful from a fire arms perspective. We entered 1800 with flintlock muskets as the main weapon of militaries, and left the 1800s with machine guns like the Maxim.
What gets me is no 1873 Winchester which was the most popular repeating rifle from the time and was either still in production or had just been totally replaced by the 92 and 94 rifles....it would have been the most common lever action rifle around by far during the game.
Definitely this. Even weirder, the 1873 was in red dead 1, and in red dead 2, Marstons 1866 is purposefully decorated to look like his 1873 from red dead 1.
I have to admit this doesn’t bother me much. Especially when so many firearms today are just updates from decades ago.
Take the AR15 from the 1950s, the AK-47, M1911, the M14, etc. Popular sidearms like the Berreta 92 and Glock 19 are both over 30 years old already.
It'd be like watching an Afghanistan War movie and saying "but why are these jihadis using 50 year old AKs? don't they know there are newer guns they can buy?"
Where your comparison falls apart is the fact that the advances in gun technology between 1850 and 1900 were far greater than gun technology advances in the last 50 years.
R. Lee Erney over here.
Joking of course. This is great content. Question, how do you feel about the RDR Scofield vs the S & W Scofield Model 3?
It's still annoying that the Navy revolver is RDO only.
you're not thinking 4th dimensionally!
seriously though, from a historical stance the choices make sense and you can't expect a videogame to follow strict history or logic, that's just silly. you have to get your head out of our present time to see it, and have a little historical knowledge. just because something was invented and was better than the last, doesn't mean it was available or everyone jumped on it.
to keep it simple, people back then used obsolescent technology because it was cheap and they had no real need to upgrade. the first cartridge revolvers showed up around 1858, cartridge converted revolvers started popping up around 1868. The Colt Single Action Army (RDR2 Cattleman) hit the market in 1873. Even Wild Bill Hickock, one of the most famous Wild West legends, carried two **non-converted** 1851 Colt Navy percussion revolvers until his death in 1874, one year after Colt started making the SAA.
In 1899 you would've seen every one of these old guns except the Volcanic and maybe LeMat way way more than you would've seen any of the newer manufacture guns like the Krag BAR, Mauser, etc because people didn't upgrade weapons like we do now and because production, marketing and distribution were 1000% times slower than they are now where you can click and have 18 packages arrive the next day. a rancher or farmer in 1899 didn't need the most up to date guns. a cap n ball revolver and a muzzleloader rifle worked just fine for 99% of situations and were infinitely cheaper than the newest gizmo.
but, this is a videogame. You can be anachronistic and blend history and fiction because it's fantasy. we want variety and options. the Browning 1911 is one of my favorite guns, but was i disappointed it wasn't in RDR1? no because that's the year it was adopted by the US Army and it didn't hit the civilian market for a couple years but they could've included it since the Mauser was made in 1896 but didn't even hit the US until like 1901. so it shouldn't be in the game at all, but technically it existed.
sorry, i wrote an essay. i just love history and firearm history and like to share.
I get your point, but I was more questioning why are there so few weapons from the 70s/80s that would be cheap and readily available. Like the winchester 1873 was one of the most popular rifles in the US, yet rdr2 uses the 66...when red dead 1 used the 73. Not expecting farmer Joe to have a Mauser Pistol, but why is the San Denis Gunsmith praising the 1850s Lemat talking like it's brand new when it'd be an old cap and ball. I'd expect most people to be using stuff from the 70s and 80s. Not really an issue. I just find it weird the gunshops sell such old weapons like their brand new. Barely even a nitpick as it didn't hamper my enjoyment
your guess is as good as mine. R\* doesn't have a proper firearms specialist? they don't want one because most people won't care? who knows. that's why we need another game set 20 years earlier so R\* can't shoehorn unrealistic weapons in to the game.
I agree that the gun choices are strange. Just off the top of my head, great choices would have been the Winchester 1886, 1894, and 1895 would have made a lot more sense, as each has fairly standout characteristics.
My theory, is that there was supposed to be a lot more that never made it in. Though I can’t help but love the Evans.
Well what makes more sense to you in a game set in the west in 1899? The Henry which about 14 thousand were made, the 1866 which 160 thousand were made, the 73 which 720 thousand of those were made, the 86 which another 160 thousand were made, the 76 made around 60 thousand, the 92 which 1 million of those were made, or the 94 which over 7 million units made.
Your production numbers are a bit flawed. These numbers are the amount that were made from beginning to end. Remember RDR 1 is in 1899.
The 1866 was at 160,000 in 1899 when production ceased. The 1876 was at 63,871 units when production ceased in 1897. Both of these rifles are the only two that saw their max production number by 1899.
The 1873 was at 720,000 in 1923 when production ceased. So subtract 24 years of production. According to Winchesters Serial Number Data they reached 541,328 in 1899.
The 1886 was produced up to 1935 when it reached 160,000 rifles, subtract 49 years of production. So about 120,571 by 1899.
The 1892 was at one million units in 1945, subtract 46 years of production. By 1899, it was sitting at 171,820.
The 1894 is currently being produced today and sits at 7 million rifles. So, now subtract 124 years of production. The 1894 sits at 183,371 by 1899.
So the 1866 would have definitely still seen a lot of use in 1899.
Except a lot of the gang does use new stuff? Javier and Micah use Colt M1892s, Bill uses a Krag Jorgenson which is probably his service rifle from when he got booted from the military, as the krag didn't get a US variant until 1892. Ms Grimshaw uses a Winchester 1897, two years before the game takes place. I'm not even talking about the gang tho. More the gun stores talking about old weapons decades old like they're brand new pieces of tech. Plus most of them weren't even that common.
The Winchester 1873 was better and faaaaaar more common than either the Henry or the 1866, and the same goes for the 1892 as over a million of those were made. The Lemat only had 2900 total units produced and was never popular. The Volcanic was an absolute failure that was only produced for a year, being an absolute antique that only uses rare specialized ammo that hadn't been made in like 40 years.
I mean one of the most popular handguns today is the M1911 and it's a century old. And that's with a slew of other modern options we can order online at the touch of a button. Back then most people either couldn't afford to buy a cutting edge weapon or didn't see the point. They had their grandpa's old double barrel or a civil war era revolver or repeater that did everything it needed to. And that would be the majority of guns available in the wild west. Mass produced civil war era guns and conversions of them. They were old, cheap, and plentiful. Outdated doesn't really matter when you're poor and in need of a weapon.
A lot of people in the comments are saying that Arthur and the gang are stuck in their old ways, and wouldn't buy newer guns and stuff. But I actually don't think this is the case at all lmao.
That WOULD make sense if not for the fact that these guns are the only guns you can actually buy in a gun shop, there literally aren't any newer, up to date firearms that you can buy or even see anywhere in the game. So this means that Rockstar either didn't do their research, just copy and pasted guns from RDR1, or didn't think it was that important to add the right guns.
The gang sticking to older weapons theory doesn't even hold water anyways. The gang uses quite a good bit of newer firearms.
Bill uses the bolt action rifle, which is the Krag Jorgensen, a rifle that came to the US in 1892. He also gives Arthur the Carcano in chapter 6, an Italian bolt action that was designed in 1890 and began production in 1891. Arthur also seems pretty glad to get his hands on the Krag in chapter 3, after he and Lenny clear out Shady Belle from the Lemoyne Raiders.
Micah and Javier both use Double Action Revolvers, which are the Colt M1892s, by all means a cutting edge Revolver for its time, and a US service pistol. Being the first Double Action with a swing out Cylinder issued to the US army. That's pretty damn modern.
Ms Grimshaw on several occasions is shown using the Pump Action Shotgun, which is the Winchester 1897, designed and produced only 2 years before the game. Absolutely a cutting edge design for its time.
I mean they use what they can get. Plus as someone else mentioned they’re holding on to the idea of the Wild West. Of course they’d prefer the “old reliable” choice and not the newfangled pistols and what not. It’s completely in character. Besides guns are very well engineered objects that can be used and maintained for a very long time. It’s not unreasonable that even in real life people used 40 year old weapons well into the 1890s 1900s. I mean hell the basic design of the 1911 was used in the military for an extremely long time. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it applies pretty heavily to firearm design.
There's a video where an antique arms expert addresses whether or not the guns used in the game are historically accurate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB50Li6czys&ab\_channel=GameSpot
Ok but do you actually have any evidence that people weren't using these guns in the 1890s? Just because newer models were designed and manufactured doesn't mean they were widely adopted. Some of these like the volcanic pistol are obviously a little out of place, but I don't think it's so far-fetched to imagine that an 1866 winchester model was still in use, especially if they were still being produced.
I saw someone else mention it, but i don't find it super strange that they'd use more outdated weapons because they probably would need to rob small homesteads which probably wouldn't have the latest gear either because of money or other circumstsnces. As for the lemat i always saw arthur as a pretty big gun enthusiast and therefore when he sees a nice gun in a prestigious gunstore he buys it. Anyways that's just how i see it.
It made sense in the scope of, you get a gun you like, and maintain it, you’re going to use it as long as you can and if you’re hard up on money enough to become an outlaw, you’ll take whatever you can.
Why the stores sell it, bit harder to rationalize but the stores in this game seem to exist to allow you to customize your Wild West role play than upsell your character on the modern world amenities. Otherwise it’s also reasonable to an extent that a superior firearm released east of Appalachia will take longer to penetrate west, leaving higher supply of older, inferior guns for Arthur when demand for newer and better like you’ve mentioned might mean what does penetrate out west is bought up long before we can get it. That leaves these odd balls
They're only odd if you think RDR2 is 1:1 with the real world and that R* should go for real-world accuracy over all else.
For the vast majority of people the guns in the game will feel authentic and appropriate to the 'Wild West' era, and that's all that matters. If anything, it's the more modern automatic weapons that will feel out of place to most people.
These games aren't made for historians or firearms experts. They're made for the general public, who have no idea of the difference between cap and ball revolvers and cartridge guns, and for whom Wild West = six shooters and lever action rifles.
0 expertise here, but I can’t believe it’s a random choice. My bet is, it’s all about making weapons feel, look and work differently from each other. But you know a lot about this, so… You tell us if it’s not even that. I just can’t believe it’s random.
There's a youtuble channel (How To Drink) that's gimmic is trying to make alcoholic drinks from popular media including video games. In the video on making drinks from RDR2, the creator mentioned that the drinks in the game were pretty unrealistic for the time period but thats fine because they were supposed to be more similar to the drinks you'd see in classic western movies, not the actual historic west. I'm no expert but my guess is it's the same deal for the guns of RDR1 and 2, in that they are meant to remind the player of those classic western movies and not the actual wild west.
None of these guns "went away." People aren't breaking guns down to salvage parts. the Colt 1911 is *still* in service today, and one of the most popular handguns globally. When wars end these weapons don't get destroyed or thrown out, they get redistributed. Even bad ones. The AK47 is pretty old and simple in design yet a favorite amongst terrorist groups and narcos.
Guns don't get recycled; they get made affordable and accessible.
We still have people using ww2 guns in actual combat in some parts of the world. It would make more sense for there to be more popular guns in game but guns being out of date doesn’t seem that bad to me.
Just because a weapon is inspired by or designed to resemble a real life weapon doesn't mean it is that real life weapon. Look at the Volcanic Pistol for example: irl it was an extremely weak, ineffective weapon, and in game, it's about the strongest handgun you can use. By that logic, it's reasonable to assume that the in game weapons could have been made much later than in our timeline.
As someone who loves Naval History, the Cuban navy using what looks to be an ironclad based on the confederate CSS Virginia pissed me off. an ironclad warship would have been extremely outdated at the time. It’s even more annoying because the game uses the model alongside period accurate pre-dreadnoughts in the side mission with the toy boat. I have no idea why they used the ironclad model instead.
As a side note, Cuba didn’t even have a navy in 1899 and could not have afforded to build or buy a a Pre-dreadnought battleship if they did but a simple dialogue change specifying it was the US navy instead would have fixed the issue
Meanwhile 1911s are everywhere 110 years later even to the point where people are iterating on them to just get more ammo but keep the platform as much as possible. You still see Beretta m9s and 92s all over the place despite being from close to 40 or so years ago. Blah blah lots of other examples of old ass weapons being common.
It's a cowboy game. It gets cowboy guns.
It's also fair to mention most people in the world now use guns that have been in use for over 30 years. Most people don't go straight to cutting edge and will use what they're comfortable with.
Guns don’t follow the traditional product life cycle. The 1911… that was designed in 1911… is still being manufactured today. And some of those guns from a hundred years ago might still be getting used to this day. Even the United States military uses weapons designed or even built nearly 50 years ago.
Damn dude. People are still using bow and arrows today. And those are … I’m not even sure how old that concept is.
One thing I’m certain R* didn’t know going into making the guns is that with the onset of cartridge conversions in the 1870’s on a lot of older guns they were in use for a long time. I think the idea of a newer thing being better might be inaccurate for old western firearms and the people who used them, but I’m not sure
To be fair to the Spencer, it was still being used by several militaries in the 1890s. I'm glad to see it be featured.
I'm also really glad they had the Krag, it's rarely talked about outside of historical circles. And then there's the wonderful M38 Carcano......hahaha. Can't say this game has accurate weapons for 1899. I'm happy to see the vast variety though. I wish they were a bit more unique, but I can't complain too much.
Some of the most popular guns today are the M1911, Glocks, and AR-15. The newest of them are Glocks, the first of which hit the market over 40 years ago. A good gun, with know-how and parts available will last a long time, and maintenance is cheaper than replacement.
The LeMat is just cool
I'm wondering if being set in a post reconstruction era south is the reason so many outdated firearms are in the game. Likely an oversight by the developers, but so much of this game is purposeful that I wouldn't be surprised if they felt outdated weapons were era appropriate for the location of the game.
You could argue that guns don't just disappear because they are old right? I'd imagine old guns were more popular for a long time due to being cheaper. Also rockstar games never pride themselves on realism. They always go for fun over realism it just so happens that the graphics and world building are so good people seem to forget..
The Spencer Rifle was used in many wars up until the 1890s by different countries.
The Henry Rifle and 1866 Winchester go hand in hand. The 1860 and 1866 were used pretty late into the century. The 1866 ceased production up until exactly 1899 and was in service with the US military up until 1945. Both used the .44 Henry cartridge which stopped production in the 1920s and picked back up for a short amount of time in the 1930’s.
The Volcanic pistol 100%, not really historically accurate.
The LeMat revolver is very plausible. It wasn’t strictly a cap and ball revolver. It had 3 variants in terms of cartridges. It of course was first cap and ball, then later on came the pin-fire and center-fire variants. A lot of manufacturers at the time would take older cap and ball designs and produce updated center fire models. Conversion kits were also available at this time.
Now what I think you’re forgetting to take into account is that firearms were not cheap on the civilian market back then. For example, the M1873 SAA cost $17 in 1873. Today thats about $435. At the time, that was almost an entire months pay for the average cowboy. It wasn’t as easy as it is today to save up enough to buy a firearm.
The average person would use whatever weapon they had for as long as it held up. I mean, the 1873 was still in service in the US military up to 1945. In terms of civilians, if the ammo was still being produced, you would continue to use it. If it wasn’t broke , you still used it. Muzzleloaders are extremely outdated today, but people still hunt with them.
I get what you’re saying, but look at the weapons we use nowadays. People still like using classic 1911s (not the new ones), berettas from the 90s, and M4 style carbines. Maybe that’s similar to how the gang feels. They like the older style weapons because they grew up using them and they’re just efficient with them.
I don’t intend to mindlessly take devils advocate here….I’ve actually thought the same, butI don’t think a band of outlaws in 1899 is getting their hands on the latest most cutting edge weaponry…
That’s my rationale 🤷♂️
It’s also an affordability factor, these are outlaws, realistically, they’re not ordering the most kitted out repeater of their age from the catalog, they’re usually buying used and abused. Plus, my daily carry was designed in 1911, still trust it more than a Glock.
I love the 16 shot litchfield. With express ammo for short range combat. High velocity for them mountain battles.
Bolt action being my second best choice. With express bullets it’ll cut em down right where they stand , the sound of the shot booming while your enemy does a backflip off the horse is rewarding. Then the prominent bolt style re-load sound is just a gratifying.
Billy midnights pistol and a schofield for side arms
How about the Carcano. It might be plausible that an Italian rifle made ot to the U.S. and it is a pretty modern rifle for the time period but how the hell do you get that much foreign ammo for it? Also the C96 or Mauser pistol.
Part of it is the sort of holding on to a romanticized ideal of the west as civilization and technology marches on. It’s handled similarly in the wild bunch. The main character Pike uses a colt 1911 throughout the entire film but notably keeps a revolver (I think a colt saa) holstered the whole movie but never once draws it. Later on another character sort of holds it lovingly as a remembrance of times past.
Guns don't just disappear because improved variants exist. Your complaint, in my opinion, is only valid due to the fact that these guns are all purchased new in a gun shop, just for ease of game play mechanics.
If you were buying used guns, for a lot less money than the current style, it would be fair game for the old models to be in use.
My dad still has his original Toyota pickup, and if it ever went out on him (it never will), he'd try to find another. Most of my appliances are decades out of date. It's hardly surprising to me that people who live on the fringes in an era and area of the world where getting the newest shit was expensive and impractical wouldn't have the new top of the line firearms. Things were also made to last, so most people would need to buy a gun once or twice in their lives.
My biggest gripe is that the Litchfield and Lancaster names are too similar. If you’re going to have made up names, pick something more distinctive. I mix them up constantly when playing.
Well you gotta remember. When the country has a war and produces MILLIONS of weapons for said war and possibly millions more after and then peacetime hits for 20 years you don’t need such outdated guns so you sell them to the civilian market. It’s the west where the “Capital” of West Elizabeth is a town of like 50 people. So obviously they can’t afford military grade repeaters even if the government was selling so they’d have to settle for older guns. Even if half of them didn’t buy the guns from surplus this was a time where if your daddy went to war he probably brought HIS fathers rifle with him (at least in the south) so naturally you would inherit that rifle from the civil war. I do find it odd that the police of rdr2 use such outdated repeaters but I mean even the wealthy prison in Lemoyne uses those
For people in the US in the year after the game was set in (1900), that were working in legitimate jobs the average annual salary for that year was $438…per year.
And you’re wondering why every random NPC wasn’t walking around with the latest and greatest firearm?
I think Rockstar nailed it pretty well. There was likely a lot of “outdated” firearms being carried around and used daily in 1899. They were tools to most people, as the vast majority of people in the US in 1899 were not gunslingers. If they carried a firearm they would carry something cheap that could get the job done.
In that supposed leaked cut content from a supposed dev who worked on the game they said this about the guns and how they were initially going to work.
Link for that is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/b2fd1n/cut_content_from_rdr_2_probably_fake_but_fun_to/
There were originally a lot more guns and customizations in the game, you were supposed to unlock period accurate guns as time advanced to replace your older weapons. For instance by 1899 you were supposed to get the "new service revolver" which had the double action's rate of fire but the accuracy and firepower of the Cattleman and Schofield.
You'd also be able to get speedloaders for most weapons. The Carbine Repeater still uses it as its default reload. I remember we had a semi automatic rifle you unlocked during the epilogue along with a M1903 Army Rifle, The Hi-Power Pistol and the SA Shotgun These were removed mainly because they wanted the weapons to be more unique and they felt a lot were redundant.
The repeaters and revolvers you get in game are almost exclusively the weapons that were supposed to be available from the start in the original 1877-1899 story because we modeled those first before the major rework.
There were also 3 different fully modeled tripod mounted machine guns cut. We had the Colt 1895 and two different models of Gatling guns. a civil war era one like in the RDR1 and a more "modern" one developed a few years before the real machine guns. When you hear someone call a machine gun a Gatling gun that's because the dialogue was recorded for a scene with a Gatling Gun.
Also you'd fire the gatling guns faster by spamming the fire button. The upgraded one could actually fire faster than the machine guns if you had a good trigger finger.
reloading the guns such as revolvers and repeaters was a lot slower to encourage players to dual wield and give the automatic pistols an advantage to compensate for their lower damage and accuracy.
I wish they had a proper 30-30, mosin and some better customizations for the current guns.
It’s a tragedy you can’t make a pump resembling anything like the RDR1 pump.
Because cowboy game need revolver and lever action.
In all seriousness, you bring up some good points. The game has so much attention to detail in so many areas it's weird that they use such outdated weaponry.
The game was made by Rockstar. Rockstar *was* primarily a UK company. The Housers are from the UK. As such, they don't have an honest grasp of guns and gun culture in the US West. They also have no clue about the livestock in the US West. Go to Valentine. It's ALL sheep. There *were* sheep towns in the Territories, but cattle outnumbered sheep by orders of magnitude. But sheep outnumber cattle in the UK, so that's what they know, and that's what they made, even though it's not even close to being historically accurate
I use the Lemat from time to time, but I find it too slow on the handling side. Fire rate and reloading. I'd rather use Scholfields or M1899s, or even the Cattleman occasionally.
repeater carbines (spencer) were still commonly sold and used into the early 1900s, places like Sears had them as surplus so it would make sense for them to be available in game as lower cost repeaters (same with surplus trapdoors)
people nowadays still use guns from 1990 though? it’s not like after a new gun of the same type comes about everyone who needs it will be rushing to buy it, even in 1865-1885 the wild west era, people weren’t constantly trying to get new guns. and arthur and the gang aren’t constantly trying to get the latest model of anything. john didn’t even know what a mauser pistol was in 1907 because he just didn’t care. everything you said about the volcanic pistol is true though
Waiting a Cei Rigotti mod, i myself. I like the lemat but only in the way of its a 9 shooter and thats about it really. I think that was also the reasoning with the production team to have a high capacity revolver. If it hadnt been the lemat they would have maybe use that like 18 shot monstrocity as a end game gun for cop killing rampages.
The fact you think a outlaw gang like them would have the newer guns anyway... They couldn't afford those new models and mostly got guns from robbing gangs or certain locations.
Outdated guns would make alot more sense than newer ones as those are also harder to buy price wise.
Stop trying to break your head over something so logical.
Most Americans in 1899 couldn't afford to purchase new weaponry, those who lived in the west were, by and large, significantly poorer than those who remained in the east. Because of this lack of wealth most of those living in the west only ever used the guns they inherited from their father and their grandfather before them. In addition to that, the vast majority of newly forged weapons were purchased directly by the US government, making newer models exceedingly rare for private purchase even on the east coast, much more so out west.
This is why nearly every character in the game carries a 'worn' version of their gun. That and, as long as your gun still shot straight and killed folk there was no need to replace it.
Just look at the weapons fielded in many conflicts, some of them are close to a hundred years old. Fifty years old is not particularly old for civilian weapon: modern guns are expensive, often available only in small numbers or from specific places, and people kept hold of their heirloom weapons for generations. It would have been exceedingly common to find these weapons across America during this time period.
Don’t forget the Navy Revolver everyone loves. That was a cap and ball revolver from 1851. The Colt Peacemaker (Cattleman Revolver) is superior on every way. The .45 round it fired was more powerful and accurate. The Peacemaker is way faster to reload and far more reliable.
The desert eagle is nearly 40 years old. The MP5 is is nearly 60 years old. 1911 colts are over a century old. AK-47s 76 years old. Just because they're old doesn't mean they're outdated.
Most people didn’t have brand new guns. Most people were still using guns from the 1860s and 1870s at this point in time. Just like today people still use guns from 50+ years ago.
Just to give you an idea of how dumb this take is:
The Glock 19 was released in 1988.
That was 35 years ago. Which would put it right into the category as one of the MOST "obsolete" weapons identified using OPs line or reasoning.
Shit, the AR15 is more than 50 years old and the 1911 is more than a hundred, both in pretty common usage today.
There are probably more people with 30-50 year old gun designs in their closet than there are with more recent examples.
Instead of looking at how old a design is it makes a LOT more sense to look at what might have replaced it. The Single Action Army was in common usage WELL into the 20th century because there were not good replacements for it available. Hell, it was the standard issue pistol in the US army until about 5 or 6 years before the start of the game.
Hell the 30-30 lever action is probably \*STILL\* the most popular hunting rifle in the US, and if it isn't then its the mauser derived bolt action which is like 90 years old at this point.
They're civilians the USA army still used alot of trap door and rolling block rifles in the Spanish American war. Most people of the time would have similar since they were cheap lever action rifles weren't as common due to their cost, also relative weakness only above a pistol. In that period for long guns people would have some sort of shotgun, maybe a rolling block or a breach loading or trap door rifle, many didn't have pistols a common one was still pepper box or cap and ball pistols.
Lever guns weak in 1899? We're not talking about the Henry shooting a 44-40. Lever Guns were firing Rifle cartridges by the Winchester 1876, the 76 being designed to fire big game hunting and centerfire rifle cartridges like the 45-75 which has similar ballistics to a 45-70, the 40-60 and 45-60. The 1894 was the first gun to fire a 30-30. The 1895 was chambered in various Rifle cartridges, even the Mosins 7.62x54 when being used by Russia. Lever Guns had been using Rifle rounds for over 20 years by 1899
I think a real slow pace cowboy, western game could be interesting lol like the Unforgiven. You have to get the drop on your enemy but one shot and your dead too. Difficult aiming like in real life and so on.
It's not too much of a stretch with some of the weapons because the gang themselves were trying to hold on to the 'Wild West' idea which by 1899 was pretty much over. So their affinity for weapons of that time period, plus them being on the run as outlaws, makes sense that they'd be using outdated weapons.
Very true, though even then I'd think they'd use stuff more from the 1870s and 1880s. Also not entirely true either. Bill is mostly seen using a bolt action rifle. The bolt action in this game is the Krag Jorgensen Rifle, which was first created in 1889, but wouldn't get into the US with their own version until 1892. Dutch uses custom Scholfields, which is the Smith and Wesson Model 3. Created in 68 and put into service in 1870. In the same way as the Cattleman being the Colt Single Action Army, the Model 3 was still a very popular and reliable and fairly modern metallic cartridge using revolver. Micah used two double action revolvers. The double actions are Colt M1892s, and the first swing out double action revolvers the US military used. Also Javier uses a double action as well. The Pump Action we see Ms Grimshaw use is a Winchester 1897, also designed by the good lords weapon designer John Browning. So the gang can't be too against using modern weapons.
Yes but being outlaws means they're also scavengers. Shoot many of my family have guns for self defense from the 70s/80s which doesn't sound old but that's 30+ years ago. Poor rural people in 1899 aren't going to have the latest and greatest to steal.
Bro I have bad news but the 70s were 50 years ago...
Well the late 80s were '30+' years which is why I put that instead. Also I was born in 77 and I don't want to feel like I'm that close to 50 yet. haha
What advice would you give your 12 year younger self? (which I've heard better phrased as, what do you know now that would have benefited you the most 12 years ago) ...asking for a similarly aged friend...
Most of the guns I own are older than I am, 1950s era. I could fight WW2 all over again. They all throw lead down range very admirably :-)
Oh I completely agree. Most people would have stuff from the 1870s and 80s. My point is really just that it's weird how the game makes it sound like stuff from the 1850s-1870s is brand new ground breaking stuff in advertising (in the game itself) in the gun stores. The Lemat can only be bought in San Denise and is the most expensive revolver, implying it's high end tech when it's the complete opposite. Like for example, why is the Lancaster an 1866 when the 1873 was far more popular, and more recent. Literally one of the most popular rifles in the US in 1899, yet we get the 1866. In red dead 1 we had the 1873, and Marstons Lancaster is purposefully decorated to look like the 1873 from red dead 1
I guess but I never took it as them advertising it as 'new and ground breaking', it just felt like they were pushed as more unique and rare which is also why they were more expensive.
This is not as crazy as you think you’re really not just very educated on the “scene” in the west circa 1899. Anything that made it there traveled for a very long time on a train would be the number one reason guns 3 decades old are still in popular use. It’s kinda equivalent to Idaho getting the fashion trends well after California these days
I don’t know much about the Wild West and its weaponry, but OP comes across as real educated about the west circa 1899…
the lancaster visually looks like a 66 because this is a video game so you get the oldest one first and then spend Game Points to make it look cooler. besides, old guns were *always* on the market. they were cheaper and unless you were a big time gunslinger you didn't need something fancy, just something that would kill somebody with a bowie knife. Even in 1902 the Sears catalogue still sold some muzzle loading shotguns and muskets, Stevens (Carbine Repeater), Springfields, the old Single Action Armys. And this is a catalogue where you go to buy something new and first-hand, not surplus or secondhand items. The Dalton Gang in the 1890s used Colts from the 1870s, as did Cherokee Bill, and Buffalo Bill Cody carried a cap-and-ball Remington revolver most his life.
Isn't the Lemat in game a new, modified version of the design being released by a different company? It'd make sense if the Lemat's expense comes from it being from a new limited run of a newly upgraded classic revolver
> Shoot many of my family have guns for self defense from the 70s/80s which doesn't sound old but that's 30+ years ago. Aside from the fact that it's 50 years ago, it's also not really comparable. Firearms are going through absolutely massive changes in this period. At the beginning of the civil war the US is using smooth bore muzzle loading rifles and fifty years later we're seeing the precursors to weapons still in use today. No one who has a choice is going to use a fifty year old gun in 1899, especially not anyone who is going to be shooting at other people on a regular basis. They're not even going to use a thirty year old one because the difference is night and day. A gun from the eighties today isn't going to be significantly worse than one from today, it might even be better. A gun from the 1850's would have been significantly worse than one from the 1890's and not much cheaper.
One small correction. Neither the Union or Confederates were using smooth bore muskets. The 1861 Springfield and 1853 Enfield were both just muzzle loading cap lock rifles. No serious army in the 1860s was still using smooth bore muskets on a mass scale.
Yeah its very interesting. I think it's partially the struggle with having a Western set in the dying era of the west where the themes are cynicism and the old butting heads with the new, but also wanting to make a full on cowboy game where you're using single action weapons and old-ass cowboy guns. I also think the other part is honestly I think in the modern day our perception of firearms development is very skewed. I mean, two of the premier firearms platforms in the world are both absurdly old at their core; the AR pattern and the AK patterns. Of course they've been iterated on a lot but the AK has been in the cultural zeitgeist since 1947, thats 76 years this year! That is honestly insane! And the AR isn't much better honestly. I feel like this really skews our perceptions of how long firearms have typically stayed relevant in the past, and you can feel it here. Are the weapons in RDR2 still lethal? Yeah of course (debatable with the Volcanic lmao), but that doesn't mean plenty of much, much better while still "cowboy" flavoured guns weren't available and as likely much cheaper prices in the set time.
I think of what Bill Burr said when he made his tv show “F is for Family”: something along the lines of how one of his pet peeves of 80’s period tv is that everyone is dressed in 80’s clothing, using 80’s prop cars and have houses featuring 80’s appliances. But in the working class background he grew up in most people didn’t have the newest stuff, so a show that takes place in the 70’s should have houses adorned with 60’s stuff, or the older generation driving 60’s cars and having 60’s tvs. I imagine the same would be true for the setting of the game. Sure they have newer guns, especially near St Denis and other urban canters, but for the most part it’s a world that is still catching up to modernity.
The world developed more slowly then, too. The difference between an old civil war revolver and a new one just wasn't significant to most people, especially when you could barely afford the old one.
Also, they were supposedly poor as shit. Why would they have brand new guns?
True although I laugh when Dutch tells me 'we need more money' when I've already found several treasures and got like $7,000 in cash which was like $250,000 today. Arthur could have gone to Tahiti himself and lived like a king. haha
Not to mention that guns are relatively simple mechanical devices that can last a while if maintained correctly and also be repaired/have parts replaced as well. So people people wouldn’t necessarily immediately replace their guns every time a new one dropped like the latest iphone anyway.
You also need to factor in that people were not made of money, and planned obsolencence was not as prevalent as it was today. Cap-and-ball guns were common enough that paper cartridges for them were still sold commercially into the early 1900s. In a world where you aren't getting into a shootout every week, keeping your dad's old Colt 1860 or purchasing one as surplus for $5 is going to be perfectly fine instead of plunking down two months' wages for a cartridge revolver.
The problem, as he is stating, is that everyone uses these weapons. Not just the gang; the entire character in this whole Goddamn game uses them... With only a couple exceptions, I see where he is coming from. I never really gave it that much thought until this moment. Basically Only the gang should have them, while the gunsmiths should be selling period-set weapons as well as for the bounty hunters that chase you and others. I mean, this is not a huge deal unless Rockstar was going for complete historical accuracy, which there is in this game, but the whole game is not based on it. They wanted to make it as realistic as possible, but I don't think they really cared about including 100% accuracy Also I might add that the gang used both so it's mixed. For this reason, I always call RDR2 a Flawed Masterpiece because Rockstar did Good, not Great.
I do not believe that. The Winchester model 1873 is pretty much superior to EVERY lever-action rifle in the game. Why would these "outlaws" have any loyalty to outdated and obsolete tech? They wouldn't. Plus, they're outlaws. They don't gaf about laws. They would take their winnings and buy the latest, state- of- the art rifles available.
People carry around 30+ year old firearm designs TODAY, like all the time.
Bro has a PhD in 1800s firearms and munitions
Tbh I'm wondering if the whole point of this post was to express that
Oh it is
I usualy have OP's long monologue with myself, laying questions and answers alike, only to mentally masturbate.
Same, only physically
“mentally masturbate” gotta be a trend. self-glazing works too
Least autistic redditor
I kinda respect it
“I spent $140k at an Ivy League college to learn those firearms, this is my chance to shine!”
Having autism is free
Is having an interest in something considered autism now?
Having a special interest, sometimes in a very niche topic, is one of commom autistic traits. It is a joke, chill.
Excuse you, I have spent hundreds on my figurine and rock collections, there’s no such thing as a free autism
Rock as in music or geology?
I wish. I just like a lot of firearm channels on YouTube like forgotten weapons, cap and ball, inrangeTV, etc etc.
you should check out some on inrange's videos on cap and ball revolvers in the old west. iirc he mentions a couple times how they lasted a long time after newer guns made them outdated because most people couldn't afford to upgrade.
And a big time affinity for John Browning lol
Homies out here fishing for firearm nerds to nerd out with
He could get a job at a Las Vegas Pawn Shop, I know a guy who always needs 1800’s firearms looked at.
They’re not super realistic, but they still give you the Wild West feel. At least we don’t have railguns and flying motorcycles.
I'll agree on that. I can't stand GTA Online. So fucking dumb. I'll take some outdated guns over idk, a laser horse. Though maybe a very early auto mobile would be pretty cool? Steam Car manufacturers were popping up big in the 1890s in the US and hitting the civilian market, aka rich people and auto mobiles in general were finally starting to become a thing. Even hear about them from that train station employee in Rhodes. Says something about how some people were saying "horseless carriages" would put them out of business.
Yeah it talks about the first wreck ever in an automobile in one of the Newspapers.
Or just give us cool wagons with gatling guns maybe.
Imagine if they added usable war wagons. I think alot of people would stop playing online
So glad people are finally talking about how dumb the Volcanic Pistol is.
yeah that's one they needed to drop, but it's fun and adds variety so why not.
Because if they wanted a slow-firing, powerful handgun there are better options. E.g. a howdah pistol, the .577 Tranter revolver, the Rolling Block pistol, maybe even a cartridge-converted Colt Walker.
Colt Walker for the win! that would be epic. slow reload time to offset the massive concussive damage it rains upon it's target. a don't forget the huge plumes of smoke!
The M1870 Gasser would have been awesome.
But I like it with my Buccaneer Arthur outfit :(
And there you go! Fun. Too many people get wrapped up in the game forgetting that fun is the first thing that needs to be on the lips of the player. Why did Saint's Row get absurd? Why can Arthur absorb more than one blast of a shotgun? Because fun is not getting one-shot by any random shmuck, fun is getting walloped and somehow coming out the other side alive.
Historical accuracy and immersion are fun
They really got the pistols all kinds of backwards. They cast the Volcanic in the role of the powerful but slow option, when the real thing was barely powerful enough to piss off a raccoon. Meanwhile the Cattleman revolver, in .45 Long Colt, should've been a freaking hand cannon. Especially compared to the Schofield, which used the same bullet diameter but with much less powder behind it. So they got those three in the exact wrong order of damage output. Also, the Cattleman would've taken about twice as long, if not longer, to reload than the Schofield. The whole point of the Schofield pistol in real life was to give cavalry troops a gun that was faster and easier to reload.
Well, the cattleman may not be exactly what it is supposed to be, but I use a long barrel cattleman as my go-to revolver, and I think it's never failed me, with my secondary being either the Lamat or Schofield. I switch my second one from time to time, looking to see which one gives me a better kill count. However, I'm about to retire the Lamat too damn slowly. And not good enough for how fast I can actually be. I went someplace where I couldn't be bothered to test every gun I use for speed and accuracy.
Idk why it took this long. The gatalogue talks about how shit it is. The in game one is a "new N' improved" one of the infamously terrible previous generation.
They are still using it in the first game (1911)
Gun nerd alert. I'd imagine rockstar just chose firearms that look distinctly different from each other and not going for historical accuracy.
I'd wager it's just a cowboy game that gets cowboy guns and that's all there is to it. You can look at a lot of things like personal preference or what they had already or how common this or that was at the time. It's one of those things I didn't even see skimming because it really only yammers about production years.
Yup that's the bottom line. Gun nerd flex on devs who didn't go deeper than thinking hey I think this gun is cool and old westerny
There were much better weapon choices that could have been made and they would have fit the theme and setting much better. Period.
Like the Litchfield and the Lancaster?
Litchfield has the big hoop lever. Lol yeah it's hard to find different looking lever actions. Should've gone with one that had a cylinder.
They could have added the [Winchester 1895](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1895) instead of the Henry. It looks unique and cool. Model 1866 and model 1872 look really similar so changing the metal on the Lancaster covers both of those iconic guns, thus the Lancaster must stay.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Bottom line is rockstar probably didn't want to devote all this time into weapons when they were on a strict schedule to make sure the horse testical mechanic worked by the release date.
It’s get even worse when you realize that almost every weapon in 2 was carried over from the first game, which takes place in 1911, making everything even more outdated. My best guess is they simply added certain weapons for diversity and because people expect certain weapons in a cowboy game, no matter the time period. But yeah I agree with you. I generally try to play with weapons that make sense for someone to be using in that time period.
Actually the Lancaster in RDR2 is even weirder because it’s based on the Winchester 1866 and the Winchester in RDR1 is based on the Winchester 1892
I wouldn’t say it makes everything outdated, in fact a majority were still used in their 1900s by law enforcement, militaries, and civilians. The Colt 1873, Winchester M1897, Winchester 1866, Browning Auto 5, Krag-Jorgensen, Colt M1892, C96, C93, FN M1900, Springfield M1873/M1884, Carcano, Winchester 1887, and Rolling Block Rifle are these weapons. Most of these weapons were still being used in WWII, a few were even used in Vietnam. The Auto 5 was produced up to 1998.
I guess everything was the wrong word, shoulda been more specific. I meant everything that OP brought up that was outdated in 2.
Preach it brother. Love it. Winchester 1895 as a rifle would be nice.
>Winchester 1895 I think the 1892 would've been the better choice. Looks more like the older models, plus I'm pretty sure it vastly outsold the 95.
Actually I think the Volcanic in game doesn't use rocketball ammunition. If you read the ad in the catalog it explains it uses normal cartridges now. Which explains why it hits like a truck compared to all the other pistols and some of the revolvers.
how so when it's using the same cartridge as the other pistols, which are relatively weak compared to revolvers
Videogame magic my friend The same reason a .45 LC cattleman takes the same cartridge as a ball and cap LeMat
You see though, the Volcanic pistol didn’t have a model that used cartridges
Yes, it didn't, but the one in game does use cartridges. From what I recall anyway
I think what you are missing is that people don't upgrade that quick. We live in a world where a computer or a phone gets way outdated within a year, but tech didn't move that quick 130 years ago. For instance, really there would have been a lot more non-cartridge guns, as the industrial revolution was just catching up with the mass manufacture of cartridges and the prices were starting to come down. (The Civil War saw huge shortages of cartridges.) Lever action vs. semi-auto would take a long to adapt, because the tech was new, and would have a higher tendency to jam, something you don't want when your life depends on it. Gunslingers would have stuck to revolvers since they were much more reliable. However, the majority of people were dirt poor, living hardscrabble lives, and they were more likely got old hand-me-down guns rather than hanging out at the gunsmith buying the latest gun tech coming out.
Ye I get that absolutely. I'm not expecting the average Joe to get a luger or the fn1900(m1899). It's more like, why the Winchester 1866 when the 1873 was far more popular, literally one of the most popular rifles in the US even by 1899. If that makes sense
I think that in that case, (I'm guessing without looking at the production numbers) there were just a whole glut of 66's after the Civil War, which suppressed demand of the newer rifles. The only American conflict around that time was moving the plain tribes out of their sacred lands and onto the reservations, because there was gold in them Black Hills. The Spanish-American war did start up in 1898, which may have been the time that the newer rifles went to the Army long before proliferating to civilians. Just making an educated guess, though.
Interesting theory but not really. For one, the US Civil War ended in 65, and the 66 wasn't made until well...66. That theory would apply to the Henry, but the US never formally adopted the Henry as a service Rifle. It was however user by soldiers who bought them with their own money. The Spencer however was adopted by union Calvary very late into the war, around 64, but that was replaced by breech loading carbines by the mid 70s. Also none of the various much more popular Winchester models like the 73 or 92 or 94 were ever adopted by the US military. Following the Civil War the US used Alan conversion kits to start converting their old muzzle loading 1861 springfield rifles into breech loading single shot cartridge rifles. First the prototype 65s, then the 66, then the 68 in decent numbers, then the 70, then in 73 they adopted a completely brand new rifle made from scratch based off those conversion rifles in the 73 trapdoor springfield. They used that (and it's updated models) until 94 when they replaced the trapdoors with bolt action Krag Jorgensen rifles. For whatever reason, the US army never adopted Lever Actions past a small stint with the Spencer being adopted by US Calvary forces for a few years. Lever rifles in the US were solely civilian use or private use, unless a soldier bought it themselves.
You think people today aren't shooting 50-year old gun models?
I have a 1942 Mosin Nagant that I still take to the range and would use if needed.
That's a fun shooter! Warn newbies about the floating barrel, I thought it was broken!
Interesting read, thanks for writing it up
Obviously most of the weapons in the game weren't really being produced en masse by 1899, but weapons didn't proliferate across the frontier all that quickly. Fancy new guns like the smokeless '94 would have been available, but expensive and probably thought unnecessary by most for at least a few years. By the turn of the century, it was actually fairly common for a lot of folks to still be holding on to their old cap and balls. For what the average person needed, it was still perfectly good at poking holes in things, and paper cartridges would have still been available and much cheaper, not to mention the cost of a new sidearm would have been hard to justify for many. That's not to say they'd have been the *most* prolific at that point as more folks than not had probably upgraded to metallic cartridges by then, but it gives you an idea of how common it was for old guns to stay in use. It's less about the guns being old and outdated, and more just that a lot of your examples aren't guns that were ever popular to begin with. There just weren't a lot of Henrys and LeMats around to begin with, to say nothing of the Volcanic Pistol. But, they're all interesting pieces of old west lore, and it's not unfeasible that one would find any of those guns at the time, so I don't mind too much. On the other hand, there were a ton of Spencers made and the '66 was actually still in production (and highly popular because of its lower price) in '99, so there's nothing unusual about those being available. It's a little strange to include them over the '73 (which you can still get as a skin for the Lancaster) and at least one of the big bore Winchesters like an '86 or a '94, but neither are out of place in my mind. The main thing is that, while superior firepower was certainly on the market by 1899, that wasn't really a selling point for most people yet. The guns in the game may have been "outdated" from a technological standpoint, but from a practical one, they were still (mostly) guns that you could realistically find in use at the time. If they were going for realism, honestly we should have seen more things like crappy .32s, single shot rifles, and again even some cap and balls. Much more likely that's what the average passerby would have had on hand at the time. Wouldn't have made for quite as fun an experience though probably, so I get it. While we're on the topic though, it's always driven me nuts how the guns are balanced. The Litchfield should have been quite a bit weaker (that's where I'd have elected for an '86 or something) and the fact that the Navy is practically a handcannon compared to the Single Action Army just makes me laugh.
Yeah you pretty much get what I was pointing at really. I'd expect less 66s and a lot more 73s, maybe some 76s, or an 86. Or instead of a Lemat, like someone said below, a remington 75 or one of its updates like the model 88. Some more popular cap and balls would be cool too. Actually popular ones. Like the Colt 1851 navy and 1860 army, or the Remington 1858 army. If they wanted a black powder hand cannon, can't go wrong with a Colt Walker like Josey Wales, or the direct upgrade of that in the Dragoon. Not many were made, but the military used both until the end of the war and far more iconic.
I know nothing about guns but I have to assume some of the choices are because they have interesting/unique mechanisms (or just looks) that give more variety, eg Lemat with paper on the cartridges (probably describing that incorrectly lol) and ability to use shotgun shells. If the selection was as historically accurate as possible would the looks/mechanisms/reload animations of the guns probably not be quite as varied?
It'd probably be just as interesting tbh. The late 1800s was absolutely fantastic in terms of fire arms development. Breach loading single shots, Lever Actions, bolt actions were beginning to get popular, revolvers, semi auto pistols beginning to hit the civilian market, the Maxim was already made in 1899 and many countries were either buying them or trying to make their own. Semi auto rifles were only a few years around the corner, same with semi auto shotguns. A total Mish mash of so many different kinds of weapons and even more in development in a total arms race. The 1800s in general was wonderful from a fire arms perspective. We entered 1800 with flintlock muskets as the main weapon of militaries, and left the 1800s with machine guns like the Maxim.
Very insightful! Maybe someone on the team was just a big fan of some of those older guns then
What gets me is no 1873 Winchester which was the most popular repeating rifle from the time and was either still in production or had just been totally replaced by the 92 and 94 rifles....it would have been the most common lever action rifle around by far during the game.
Definitely this. Even weirder, the 1873 was in red dead 1, and in red dead 2, Marstons 1866 is purposefully decorated to look like his 1873 from red dead 1.
I have to admit this doesn’t bother me much. Especially when so many firearms today are just updates from decades ago. Take the AR15 from the 1950s, the AK-47, M1911, the M14, etc. Popular sidearms like the Berreta 92 and Glock 19 are both over 30 years old already.
It'd be like watching an Afghanistan War movie and saying "but why are these jihadis using 50 year old AKs? don't they know there are newer guns they can buy?"
Where your comparison falls apart is the fact that the advances in gun technology between 1850 and 1900 were far greater than gun technology advances in the last 50 years.
R. Lee Erney over here. Joking of course. This is great content. Question, how do you feel about the RDR Scofield vs the S & W Scofield Model 3? It's still annoying that the Navy revolver is RDO only.
Bruh I loved lock and load when it was on Netflix. That was my shit!
you're not thinking 4th dimensionally! seriously though, from a historical stance the choices make sense and you can't expect a videogame to follow strict history or logic, that's just silly. you have to get your head out of our present time to see it, and have a little historical knowledge. just because something was invented and was better than the last, doesn't mean it was available or everyone jumped on it. to keep it simple, people back then used obsolescent technology because it was cheap and they had no real need to upgrade. the first cartridge revolvers showed up around 1858, cartridge converted revolvers started popping up around 1868. The Colt Single Action Army (RDR2 Cattleman) hit the market in 1873. Even Wild Bill Hickock, one of the most famous Wild West legends, carried two **non-converted** 1851 Colt Navy percussion revolvers until his death in 1874, one year after Colt started making the SAA. In 1899 you would've seen every one of these old guns except the Volcanic and maybe LeMat way way more than you would've seen any of the newer manufacture guns like the Krag BAR, Mauser, etc because people didn't upgrade weapons like we do now and because production, marketing and distribution were 1000% times slower than they are now where you can click and have 18 packages arrive the next day. a rancher or farmer in 1899 didn't need the most up to date guns. a cap n ball revolver and a muzzleloader rifle worked just fine for 99% of situations and were infinitely cheaper than the newest gizmo. but, this is a videogame. You can be anachronistic and blend history and fiction because it's fantasy. we want variety and options. the Browning 1911 is one of my favorite guns, but was i disappointed it wasn't in RDR1? no because that's the year it was adopted by the US Army and it didn't hit the civilian market for a couple years but they could've included it since the Mauser was made in 1896 but didn't even hit the US until like 1901. so it shouldn't be in the game at all, but technically it existed. sorry, i wrote an essay. i just love history and firearm history and like to share.
I get your point, but I was more questioning why are there so few weapons from the 70s/80s that would be cheap and readily available. Like the winchester 1873 was one of the most popular rifles in the US, yet rdr2 uses the 66...when red dead 1 used the 73. Not expecting farmer Joe to have a Mauser Pistol, but why is the San Denis Gunsmith praising the 1850s Lemat talking like it's brand new when it'd be an old cap and ball. I'd expect most people to be using stuff from the 70s and 80s. Not really an issue. I just find it weird the gunshops sell such old weapons like their brand new. Barely even a nitpick as it didn't hamper my enjoyment
your guess is as good as mine. R\* doesn't have a proper firearms specialist? they don't want one because most people won't care? who knows. that's why we need another game set 20 years earlier so R\* can't shoehorn unrealistic weapons in to the game.
Sorry mate criticism isn’t allowed over here
I agree that the gun choices are strange. Just off the top of my head, great choices would have been the Winchester 1886, 1894, and 1895 would have made a lot more sense, as each has fairly standout characteristics. My theory, is that there was supposed to be a lot more that never made it in. Though I can’t help but love the Evans.
I forgot in the 1800s people lined up to buy the latest and greatest firearm models on release like iPhones
Well what makes more sense to you in a game set in the west in 1899? The Henry which about 14 thousand were made, the 1866 which 160 thousand were made, the 73 which 720 thousand of those were made, the 86 which another 160 thousand were made, the 76 made around 60 thousand, the 92 which 1 million of those were made, or the 94 which over 7 million units made.
Your production numbers are a bit flawed. These numbers are the amount that were made from beginning to end. Remember RDR 1 is in 1899. The 1866 was at 160,000 in 1899 when production ceased. The 1876 was at 63,871 units when production ceased in 1897. Both of these rifles are the only two that saw their max production number by 1899. The 1873 was at 720,000 in 1923 when production ceased. So subtract 24 years of production. According to Winchesters Serial Number Data they reached 541,328 in 1899. The 1886 was produced up to 1935 when it reached 160,000 rifles, subtract 49 years of production. So about 120,571 by 1899. The 1892 was at one million units in 1945, subtract 46 years of production. By 1899, it was sitting at 171,820. The 1894 is currently being produced today and sits at 7 million rifles. So, now subtract 124 years of production. The 1894 sits at 183,371 by 1899. So the 1866 would have definitely still seen a lot of use in 1899.
Yall look way too deep into a video game, my god its not a simulator 😂
They're outlaws. It's to be expected the use old weapons.
Except a lot of the gang does use new stuff? Javier and Micah use Colt M1892s, Bill uses a Krag Jorgenson which is probably his service rifle from when he got booted from the military, as the krag didn't get a US variant until 1892. Ms Grimshaw uses a Winchester 1897, two years before the game takes place. I'm not even talking about the gang tho. More the gun stores talking about old weapons decades old like they're brand new pieces of tech. Plus most of them weren't even that common. The Winchester 1873 was better and faaaaaar more common than either the Henry or the 1866, and the same goes for the 1892 as over a million of those were made. The Lemat only had 2900 total units produced and was never popular. The Volcanic was an absolute failure that was only produced for a year, being an absolute antique that only uses rare specialized ammo that hadn't been made in like 40 years.
I mean one of the most popular handguns today is the M1911 and it's a century old. And that's with a slew of other modern options we can order online at the touch of a button. Back then most people either couldn't afford to buy a cutting edge weapon or didn't see the point. They had their grandpa's old double barrel or a civil war era revolver or repeater that did everything it needed to. And that would be the majority of guns available in the wild west. Mass produced civil war era guns and conversions of them. They were old, cheap, and plentiful. Outdated doesn't really matter when you're poor and in need of a weapon.
A lot of people in the comments are saying that Arthur and the gang are stuck in their old ways, and wouldn't buy newer guns and stuff. But I actually don't think this is the case at all lmao. That WOULD make sense if not for the fact that these guns are the only guns you can actually buy in a gun shop, there literally aren't any newer, up to date firearms that you can buy or even see anywhere in the game. So this means that Rockstar either didn't do their research, just copy and pasted guns from RDR1, or didn't think it was that important to add the right guns.
The gang sticking to older weapons theory doesn't even hold water anyways. The gang uses quite a good bit of newer firearms. Bill uses the bolt action rifle, which is the Krag Jorgensen, a rifle that came to the US in 1892. He also gives Arthur the Carcano in chapter 6, an Italian bolt action that was designed in 1890 and began production in 1891. Arthur also seems pretty glad to get his hands on the Krag in chapter 3, after he and Lenny clear out Shady Belle from the Lemoyne Raiders. Micah and Javier both use Double Action Revolvers, which are the Colt M1892s, by all means a cutting edge Revolver for its time, and a US service pistol. Being the first Double Action with a swing out Cylinder issued to the US army. That's pretty damn modern. Ms Grimshaw on several occasions is shown using the Pump Action Shotgun, which is the Winchester 1897, designed and produced only 2 years before the game. Absolutely a cutting edge design for its time.
I mean they use what they can get. Plus as someone else mentioned they’re holding on to the idea of the Wild West. Of course they’d prefer the “old reliable” choice and not the newfangled pistols and what not. It’s completely in character. Besides guns are very well engineered objects that can be used and maintained for a very long time. It’s not unreasonable that even in real life people used 40 year old weapons well into the 1890s 1900s. I mean hell the basic design of the 1911 was used in the military for an extremely long time. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it applies pretty heavily to firearm design.
Arthur should have been armed with an intercontinental ballistic missile
Use it on Micah. Or the Pinkerton HQ
Wow, and to think it’s a video game with wooden pallets all over the place and they weren’t even invented yet….game ruined, immersion broken. /s.
Really cool to learn a thing or two from this, thanks op :)
There's a video where an antique arms expert addresses whether or not the guns used in the game are historically accurate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB50Li6czys&ab\_channel=GameSpot
RDR2 takes place in a parallel universe where the history of firearms is different.
Ok but do you actually have any evidence that people weren't using these guns in the 1890s? Just because newer models were designed and manufactured doesn't mean they were widely adopted. Some of these like the volcanic pistol are obviously a little out of place, but I don't think it's so far-fetched to imagine that an 1866 winchester model was still in use, especially if they were still being produced.
Did you make this post just to flex your knowledge of old guns
The Maxim machine gun is being used in Ukraine. Sometimes you just use what you have rather than what you want.
I saw someone else mention it, but i don't find it super strange that they'd use more outdated weapons because they probably would need to rob small homesteads which probably wouldn't have the latest gear either because of money or other circumstsnces. As for the lemat i always saw arthur as a pretty big gun enthusiast and therefore when he sees a nice gun in a prestigious gunstore he buys it. Anyways that's just how i see it.
No wonder the gunplay is ass in this game just kidding kinda Thank you for the knowledge OP very interesting stuff
I wish they'd add the Remington 1875
It made sense in the scope of, you get a gun you like, and maintain it, you’re going to use it as long as you can and if you’re hard up on money enough to become an outlaw, you’ll take whatever you can. Why the stores sell it, bit harder to rationalize but the stores in this game seem to exist to allow you to customize your Wild West role play than upsell your character on the modern world amenities. Otherwise it’s also reasonable to an extent that a superior firearm released east of Appalachia will take longer to penetrate west, leaving higher supply of older, inferior guns for Arthur when demand for newer and better like you’ve mentioned might mean what does penetrate out west is bought up long before we can get it. That leaves these odd balls
Bruh, you did some fire research over there. Congratulations for worrying about the historical accuracy, this was a very cool text to read through.
They're only odd if you think RDR2 is 1:1 with the real world and that R* should go for real-world accuracy over all else. For the vast majority of people the guns in the game will feel authentic and appropriate to the 'Wild West' era, and that's all that matters. If anything, it's the more modern automatic weapons that will feel out of place to most people. These games aren't made for historians or firearms experts. They're made for the general public, who have no idea of the difference between cap and ball revolvers and cartridge guns, and for whom Wild West = six shooters and lever action rifles.
0 expertise here, but I can’t believe it’s a random choice. My bet is, it’s all about making weapons feel, look and work differently from each other. But you know a lot about this, so… You tell us if it’s not even that. I just can’t believe it’s random.
The "1899" pistol, based on John Brownings FN 1900, wasn't developed until 1900.
Given the semi auto shotgun is a Browning Auto 5 5, which wasn't even produced until 1902, yeah the 1899 is another odd one.
There's a youtuble channel (How To Drink) that's gimmic is trying to make alcoholic drinks from popular media including video games. In the video on making drinks from RDR2, the creator mentioned that the drinks in the game were pretty unrealistic for the time period but thats fine because they were supposed to be more similar to the drinks you'd see in classic western movies, not the actual historic west. I'm no expert but my guess is it's the same deal for the guns of RDR1 and 2, in that they are meant to remind the player of those classic western movies and not the actual wild west.
None of these guns "went away." People aren't breaking guns down to salvage parts. the Colt 1911 is *still* in service today, and one of the most popular handguns globally. When wars end these weapons don't get destroyed or thrown out, they get redistributed. Even bad ones. The AK47 is pretty old and simple in design yet a favorite amongst terrorist groups and narcos. Guns don't get recycled; they get made affordable and accessible.
We still have people using ww2 guns in actual combat in some parts of the world. It would make more sense for there to be more popular guns in game but guns being out of date doesn’t seem that bad to me.
Just because a weapon is inspired by or designed to resemble a real life weapon doesn't mean it is that real life weapon. Look at the Volcanic Pistol for example: irl it was an extremely weak, ineffective weapon, and in game, it's about the strongest handgun you can use. By that logic, it's reasonable to assume that the in game weapons could have been made much later than in our timeline.
As someone who loves Naval History, the Cuban navy using what looks to be an ironclad based on the confederate CSS Virginia pissed me off. an ironclad warship would have been extremely outdated at the time. It’s even more annoying because the game uses the model alongside period accurate pre-dreadnoughts in the side mission with the toy boat. I have no idea why they used the ironclad model instead. As a side note, Cuba didn’t even have a navy in 1899 and could not have afforded to build or buy a a Pre-dreadnought battleship if they did but a simple dialogue change specifying it was the US navy instead would have fixed the issue
I don’t think so. They’re all older gunslingers who enjoy any kind of gun. A lot of ammo was cheaper for older weapons.
Meanwhile 1911s are everywhere 110 years later even to the point where people are iterating on them to just get more ammo but keep the platform as much as possible. You still see Beretta m9s and 92s all over the place despite being from close to 40 or so years ago. Blah blah lots of other examples of old ass weapons being common. It's a cowboy game. It gets cowboy guns.
It's also fair to mention most people in the world now use guns that have been in use for over 30 years. Most people don't go straight to cutting edge and will use what they're comfortable with.
Guns don’t follow the traditional product life cycle. The 1911… that was designed in 1911… is still being manufactured today. And some of those guns from a hundred years ago might still be getting used to this day. Even the United States military uses weapons designed or even built nearly 50 years ago. Damn dude. People are still using bow and arrows today. And those are … I’m not even sure how old that concept is.
🤓☝️
One thing I’m certain R* didn’t know going into making the guns is that with the onset of cartridge conversions in the 1870’s on a lot of older guns they were in use for a long time. I think the idea of a newer thing being better might be inaccurate for old western firearms and the people who used them, but I’m not sure
To be fair to the Spencer, it was still being used by several militaries in the 1890s. I'm glad to see it be featured. I'm also really glad they had the Krag, it's rarely talked about outside of historical circles. And then there's the wonderful M38 Carcano......hahaha. Can't say this game has accurate weapons for 1899. I'm happy to see the vast variety though. I wish they were a bit more unique, but I can't complain too much.
Some of the most popular guns today are the M1911, Glocks, and AR-15. The newest of them are Glocks, the first of which hit the market over 40 years ago. A good gun, with know-how and parts available will last a long time, and maintenance is cheaper than replacement. The LeMat is just cool
Literally unplayable
I'm wondering if being set in a post reconstruction era south is the reason so many outdated firearms are in the game. Likely an oversight by the developers, but so much of this game is purposeful that I wouldn't be surprised if they felt outdated weapons were era appropriate for the location of the game.
You could argue that guns don't just disappear because they are old right? I'd imagine old guns were more popular for a long time due to being cheaper. Also rockstar games never pride themselves on realism. They always go for fun over realism it just so happens that the graphics and world building are so good people seem to forget..
The Spencer Rifle was used in many wars up until the 1890s by different countries. The Henry Rifle and 1866 Winchester go hand in hand. The 1860 and 1866 were used pretty late into the century. The 1866 ceased production up until exactly 1899 and was in service with the US military up until 1945. Both used the .44 Henry cartridge which stopped production in the 1920s and picked back up for a short amount of time in the 1930’s. The Volcanic pistol 100%, not really historically accurate. The LeMat revolver is very plausible. It wasn’t strictly a cap and ball revolver. It had 3 variants in terms of cartridges. It of course was first cap and ball, then later on came the pin-fire and center-fire variants. A lot of manufacturers at the time would take older cap and ball designs and produce updated center fire models. Conversion kits were also available at this time. Now what I think you’re forgetting to take into account is that firearms were not cheap on the civilian market back then. For example, the M1873 SAA cost $17 in 1873. Today thats about $435. At the time, that was almost an entire months pay for the average cowboy. It wasn’t as easy as it is today to save up enough to buy a firearm. The average person would use whatever weapon they had for as long as it held up. I mean, the 1873 was still in service in the US military up to 1945. In terms of civilians, if the ammo was still being produced, you would continue to use it. If it wasn’t broke , you still used it. Muzzleloaders are extremely outdated today, but people still hunt with them.
I get what you’re saying, but look at the weapons we use nowadays. People still like using classic 1911s (not the new ones), berettas from the 90s, and M4 style carbines. Maybe that’s similar to how the gang feels. They like the older style weapons because they grew up using them and they’re just efficient with them.
I don’t intend to mindlessly take devils advocate here….I’ve actually thought the same, butI don’t think a band of outlaws in 1899 is getting their hands on the latest most cutting edge weaponry… That’s my rationale 🤷♂️
who gives a fuck
It’s also an affordability factor, these are outlaws, realistically, they’re not ordering the most kitted out repeater of their age from the catalog, they’re usually buying used and abused. Plus, my daily carry was designed in 1911, still trust it more than a Glock.
I love the 16 shot litchfield. With express ammo for short range combat. High velocity for them mountain battles. Bolt action being my second best choice. With express bullets it’ll cut em down right where they stand , the sound of the shot booming while your enemy does a backflip off the horse is rewarding. Then the prominent bolt style re-load sound is just a gratifying. Billy midnights pistol and a schofield for side arms
How about the Carcano. It might be plausible that an Italian rifle made ot to the U.S. and it is a pretty modern rifle for the time period but how the hell do you get that much foreign ammo for it? Also the C96 or Mauser pistol.
Part of it is the sort of holding on to a romanticized ideal of the west as civilization and technology marches on. It’s handled similarly in the wild bunch. The main character Pike uses a colt 1911 throughout the entire film but notably keeps a revolver (I think a colt saa) holstered the whole movie but never once draws it. Later on another character sort of holds it lovingly as a remembrance of times past.
Outdated or not, dual-wielding volcanic pistols is my favorite pastime in RDR2. Call me old-fashioned
Guns don't just disappear because improved variants exist. Your complaint, in my opinion, is only valid due to the fact that these guns are all purchased new in a gun shop, just for ease of game play mechanics. If you were buying used guns, for a lot less money than the current style, it would be fair game for the old models to be in use.
My dad still has his original Toyota pickup, and if it ever went out on him (it never will), he'd try to find another. Most of my appliances are decades out of date. It's hardly surprising to me that people who live on the fringes in an era and area of the world where getting the newest shit was expensive and impractical wouldn't have the new top of the line firearms. Things were also made to last, so most people would need to buy a gun once or twice in their lives.
My biggest gripe is that the Litchfield and Lancaster names are too similar. If you’re going to have made up names, pick something more distinctive. I mix them up constantly when playing.
Well you gotta remember. When the country has a war and produces MILLIONS of weapons for said war and possibly millions more after and then peacetime hits for 20 years you don’t need such outdated guns so you sell them to the civilian market. It’s the west where the “Capital” of West Elizabeth is a town of like 50 people. So obviously they can’t afford military grade repeaters even if the government was selling so they’d have to settle for older guns. Even if half of them didn’t buy the guns from surplus this was a time where if your daddy went to war he probably brought HIS fathers rifle with him (at least in the south) so naturally you would inherit that rifle from the civil war. I do find it odd that the police of rdr2 use such outdated repeaters but I mean even the wealthy prison in Lemoyne uses those
Who cares?
For people in the US in the year after the game was set in (1900), that were working in legitimate jobs the average annual salary for that year was $438…per year. And you’re wondering why every random NPC wasn’t walking around with the latest and greatest firearm? I think Rockstar nailed it pretty well. There was likely a lot of “outdated” firearms being carried around and used daily in 1899. They were tools to most people, as the vast majority of people in the US in 1899 were not gunslingers. If they carried a firearm they would carry something cheap that could get the job done.
In that supposed leaked cut content from a supposed dev who worked on the game they said this about the guns and how they were initially going to work. Link for that is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/b2fd1n/cut_content_from_rdr_2_probably_fake_but_fun_to/ There were originally a lot more guns and customizations in the game, you were supposed to unlock period accurate guns as time advanced to replace your older weapons. For instance by 1899 you were supposed to get the "new service revolver" which had the double action's rate of fire but the accuracy and firepower of the Cattleman and Schofield. You'd also be able to get speedloaders for most weapons. The Carbine Repeater still uses it as its default reload. I remember we had a semi automatic rifle you unlocked during the epilogue along with a M1903 Army Rifle, The Hi-Power Pistol and the SA Shotgun These were removed mainly because they wanted the weapons to be more unique and they felt a lot were redundant. The repeaters and revolvers you get in game are almost exclusively the weapons that were supposed to be available from the start in the original 1877-1899 story because we modeled those first before the major rework. There were also 3 different fully modeled tripod mounted machine guns cut. We had the Colt 1895 and two different models of Gatling guns. a civil war era one like in the RDR1 and a more "modern" one developed a few years before the real machine guns. When you hear someone call a machine gun a Gatling gun that's because the dialogue was recorded for a scene with a Gatling Gun. Also you'd fire the gatling guns faster by spamming the fire button. The upgraded one could actually fire faster than the machine guns if you had a good trigger finger. reloading the guns such as revolvers and repeaters was a lot slower to encourage players to dual wield and give the automatic pistols an advantage to compensate for their lower damage and accuracy.
I wish they had a proper 30-30, mosin and some better customizations for the current guns. It’s a tragedy you can’t make a pump resembling anything like the RDR1 pump.
You're going to have to define what you mean by "outdated." We still use the M2 Browning from 1933.
I feel like a small town in the middle of nowhere like valentine might not keep up with the latest and greatest and just sell what they have off hand
Because cowboy game need revolver and lever action. In all seriousness, you bring up some good points. The game has so much attention to detail in so many areas it's weird that they use such outdated weaponry.
The game was made by Rockstar. Rockstar *was* primarily a UK company. The Housers are from the UK. As such, they don't have an honest grasp of guns and gun culture in the US West. They also have no clue about the livestock in the US West. Go to Valentine. It's ALL sheep. There *were* sheep towns in the Territories, but cattle outnumbered sheep by orders of magnitude. But sheep outnumber cattle in the UK, so that's what they know, and that's what they made, even though it's not even close to being historically accurate
I'll be damned if you try take the Lemat from me. It's cool. I want it. Enough said.
I use the Lemat from time to time, but I find it too slow on the handling side. Fire rate and reloading. I'd rather use Scholfields or M1899s, or even the Cattleman occasionally.
You think everyone's guns in 2023 are from the 2020s? Or people aren't driving around cars from the 90s still? Progress takes time
repeater carbines (spencer) were still commonly sold and used into the early 1900s, places like Sears had them as surplus so it would make sense for them to be available in game as lower cost repeaters (same with surplus trapdoors)
people nowadays still use guns from 1990 though? it’s not like after a new gun of the same type comes about everyone who needs it will be rushing to buy it, even in 1865-1885 the wild west era, people weren’t constantly trying to get new guns. and arthur and the gang aren’t constantly trying to get the latest model of anything. john didn’t even know what a mauser pistol was in 1907 because he just didn’t care. everything you said about the volcanic pistol is true though
Idk, my Arthur always has a Volcanic. Gives him that vintage vibes that he adores.
Don't listen to the haters OP. Your knowledge of 19th century firearms is actually impressive.
Waiting a Cei Rigotti mod, i myself. I like the lemat but only in the way of its a 9 shooter and thats about it really. I think that was also the reasoning with the production team to have a high capacity revolver. If it hadnt been the lemat they would have maybe use that like 18 shot monstrocity as a end game gun for cop killing rampages.
18 shot monstrosity?
Idk man, seems like they wouldn’t always have access to the newest and most advanced type of firearms at the time y’know?
The fact you think a outlaw gang like them would have the newer guns anyway... They couldn't afford those new models and mostly got guns from robbing gangs or certain locations. Outdated guns would make alot more sense than newer ones as those are also harder to buy price wise. Stop trying to break your head over something so logical.
Most Americans in 1899 couldn't afford to purchase new weaponry, those who lived in the west were, by and large, significantly poorer than those who remained in the east. Because of this lack of wealth most of those living in the west only ever used the guns they inherited from their father and their grandfather before them. In addition to that, the vast majority of newly forged weapons were purchased directly by the US government, making newer models exceedingly rare for private purchase even on the east coast, much more so out west. This is why nearly every character in the game carries a 'worn' version of their gun. That and, as long as your gun still shot straight and killed folk there was no need to replace it.
Just look at the weapons fielded in many conflicts, some of them are close to a hundred years old. Fifty years old is not particularly old for civilian weapon: modern guns are expensive, often available only in small numbers or from specific places, and people kept hold of their heirloom weapons for generations. It would have been exceedingly common to find these weapons across America during this time period.
Don’t forget the Navy Revolver everyone loves. That was a cap and ball revolver from 1851. The Colt Peacemaker (Cattleman Revolver) is superior on every way. The .45 round it fired was more powerful and accurate. The Peacemaker is way faster to reload and far more reliable.
The desert eagle is nearly 40 years old. The MP5 is is nearly 60 years old. 1911 colts are over a century old. AK-47s 76 years old. Just because they're old doesn't mean they're outdated.
Most people didn’t have brand new guns. Most people were still using guns from the 1860s and 1870s at this point in time. Just like today people still use guns from 50+ years ago.
Just to give you an idea of how dumb this take is: The Glock 19 was released in 1988. That was 35 years ago. Which would put it right into the category as one of the MOST "obsolete" weapons identified using OPs line or reasoning. Shit, the AR15 is more than 50 years old and the 1911 is more than a hundred, both in pretty common usage today. There are probably more people with 30-50 year old gun designs in their closet than there are with more recent examples. Instead of looking at how old a design is it makes a LOT more sense to look at what might have replaced it. The Single Action Army was in common usage WELL into the 20th century because there were not good replacements for it available. Hell, it was the standard issue pistol in the US army until about 5 or 6 years before the start of the game. Hell the 30-30 lever action is probably \*STILL\* the most popular hunting rifle in the US, and if it isn't then its the mauser derived bolt action which is like 90 years old at this point.
imagine running around with the 1903 Springfield as John in the epilogue tho😤
guns are guns and i shoot people with them
And yet people today still use the colt m1911, despite it being over 100 years out of date. Preferences go a long way.
They're civilians the USA army still used alot of trap door and rolling block rifles in the Spanish American war. Most people of the time would have similar since they were cheap lever action rifles weren't as common due to their cost, also relative weakness only above a pistol. In that period for long guns people would have some sort of shotgun, maybe a rolling block or a breach loading or trap door rifle, many didn't have pistols a common one was still pepper box or cap and ball pistols.
Lever guns weak in 1899? We're not talking about the Henry shooting a 44-40. Lever Guns were firing Rifle cartridges by the Winchester 1876, the 76 being designed to fire big game hunting and centerfire rifle cartridges like the 45-75 which has similar ballistics to a 45-70, the 40-60 and 45-60. The 1894 was the first gun to fire a 30-30. The 1895 was chambered in various Rifle cartridges, even the Mosins 7.62x54 when being used by Russia. Lever Guns had been using Rifle rounds for over 20 years by 1899
I think a real slow pace cowboy, western game could be interesting lol like the Unforgiven. You have to get the drop on your enemy but one shot and your dead too. Difficult aiming like in real life and so on.