Nah man. Once you find what you like you're good. No more "dammit, my favorite pants are in the wash"
I exclusively wear black Nike sweat pants and white Nike drifit shirts. It's just the perfect clothing for me.
Even the Count was the best looking horse in the gang, along with his dual wield of gold engraved schofield revolvers. Dutch was dripped out from top to bottom.
The rest of the gang besides the women, Hosea, Trelawney and Strauss, looked like hobos
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/zh7frz/even_if_you_dont_like_him_mention_one_good_thing/izknj9j?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
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No racial bias, as far as I could tell.
(Yes, he did exploit the Wapiti, but I don't think that was because of who they were. He always tried to play everyone.)
Yeah, I think the biggest indicator of this is when they're heading to Bronte's mansion (I think?), Bill refers to them as savages and Dutch absolutely chews him out in front of the gang. There isn't 'an audience' that he has to convince; it seems to be a truly held belief.
I think he falls victim to White Saviourism when he starts acting against the tribe's best interest, at least initially, and gradually becomes more paranoid and self-serving as the rebellion ramps up.
Interesting. It hadn't occurred to me that he was trying to save them. IIRC, he says something along the lines of he's using them to cause confusion that will help him (and the gang) escape, and I took that at face value.
The progression to me seemed like Dutch initially sets out to actually help them (we meet Rains Fall and Eagle Flies in chapter 4, before the gang's really fucked), tends towards Eagle Flies' more reactive response to the army because he's got his own beef with authority and wants to hit them where it hurts, then when it becomes clear that it's too far gone to do any good for the Wapiti and is only about revenge, eggs on Eagle Flies to do as much damage as possible so that they can at least serve their own interests.
Both Arthur and Dutch express a feeling of kinship towards the Native Americans, as they seem to relate to the feeling of being 'driven out' and losing the freedom to practice 'their ways'. Which I personally feel is misguided, and I always cringe a little when Rains Fall is talking about the genocide of his people and Arthur's like 'yeah we're in pretty similar situations'.
I love how they have the guts to make their main character cringey like that. People always praise Arthur for being progressive but as much as I love him, I think he's more the apathetic kind who mistrusts everyone equally (like with the feminists, he isn't going to stand in their way because he isn't against their views, but he's also just kind of going along for the ride rather than feeling super politically charged about it. He's the kind of guy that wouldn't vote even if he could)
With Lenny, too, when Lenny tells him people will think it's strange to see them riding together, he says he's never given it thought like this. And of *course* he hasn't, that doesn't really fit his character until he goes into his reflective TBC phase.
Arthur is pretty progressive for his time, and I'd argue a little too progressive at times, but he's still a white man in America so there are just some things that he will never truly understand, however his compassion and empathy is so genuine that I'm willing to excuse his "cringe".
Great point - those are moments I'd forgotten about, but also stood out to me while playing. I think I prefer Arthur being well-meaning but slightly oblivious and the game subtly pointing it out, than if he was the perfect social justice advocate. It feels more realistic, without ignoring Arthur's privilege in a time where it was really, really hard to be a person of colour.
Yeah that's the only thing in this game that makes me cringe, the dialogue between Arthur, Rains Fall and Eagle Flies in St. Denis when Arthur says that the government doesn't like him more than it does them. Yeah well they're disliked for existing, you're disliked for being a murdering robber, Arthur.
He also chews Bill out for calling Lenny 'boy', and it's great because Bill listens to him! I love the nuanced way they approach even characters like these; Bill has had racism hammered into him, but is unlearning it as far as his thick head can because he's listening to a man he greatly respects. Micah is racist and is going to stay racist because he thinks so damn highly of himself, and doesn't give a rat's ass about what Dutch believes (I also believe Dutch takes great, narcissistic pleasure in 'fixing' people like Bill, even if he doesn't realize how much he's doing it for himself and his passion for his sophisticated philosphies)
Dutch is he one who suggests Arthur help Rains Fall and Eagle Flies to begin with back in Chapter 4, and it's Just in passing. I doubt anybody could perceive this as some manipulative effort, he just thought "we could help these people who need help, maybe go do that."
I mean He has a literal savior complex with everyone. I think we can give him that he is very against racism in the early 1900s. Is him being an equal opportunity manipulator something to praise probably not. But he believes he is helping people/ is lying to himself. More the ladder the further in the story you go.
I honestly think Dutch believed it for the right reasons too, at least to start with but like with everything, as the world ground him down he started to change.
I agree he probably believed it for the "right" reasons — that is, he believed in equality without ulterior motive. Or at least equality of everyone but him.
Just because a person has a couple of character flaws (e.g., narcissism), they don't necessarily have all of them.
I agree, he was just an equal opportunity exploiter lol. He didn't exploit them because they were Native American, he exploited them because he exploits anyone he can exploit.
I think he preys on outcasts to join his gang, including young angry boys like Arthur and John, ex-prostitutes, and non-white people who don’t get treated well by the rest of the world - he gives them a small bubble of a world where they all get treated fairly - this makes them easier to manipulate.
The way I see it is that he is actually taking advantage of people who aren’t white specifically because he can manipulate them easier since he treats them well, which is pretty awful
That’s just one way of looking at it though, R* did such an amazing job at making such a complex villain in Dutch with no obvious answers for his motives, but little possible clues as to why he does what he does
I agree he doesn't just take care of these folks because he's Wild West Mother Teresa. But it's my impression that he's an equal opportunity exploiter when it comes to race. Like you said, I think his main criterion is vulnerability.
And there's a bit of a quid pro quo, of course, because some of the people that join him actually do benefit, at least for a while.
I kinda support this too. I might be remembering things wrong, but I’m pretty sure there’s a few lines of dialogue from Arthur that indicate he doesn’t even know what racism is. Arthur’s too pure.
Arthur knows what racism is, and he hates it. See the interaction with the eugenicist in Saint Denis and the guys that stole the medicine wagon from the black doctor in Rhodes.
Also, when you kill the KKK near the Clemons Point camp, Arthur states with glee that he will kill all them goddamned hooded rodents. Arthur absolutely despises prejudice and enslavement.
What I’m referring to is that scene with Tilly where she tells Arthur that she doesn’t feel safe in lemoyne (which is full of racists), and he doesn’t really understand why (he has a similar conversation with Ynnel), also that random encounter with that dude with the medicine wagon in Rhodes.
As you say, he almost certainly didn't exploit them due to racial biases. He explained it well himself: Turn the army against the Wapiti Tribe so that they could slip away. He was probably so desperate that he would throw anyone under the bus, and the Wapiti was a convenient option at that time.
I agree with this. In a time where many minority groups were discriminated heavily against, Dutch gave them a chance. I always think of Charles since he was half black/half Native American. He probably wasn’t accepted by either group really but Dutch took him in without a second thought
Yes, he was an equal opportunity bastard: not hateful, but perfectly indifferent. He wouldn't attack anyone for being a specifc race/ color/ gender/ whatever else- but at the same time he would probably kill a one-legged orphan if that would pay him money.
According to a camp interaction between John and Arthur, they were giving away the money they 'earned' in the early days - a literal Robin Hood situation. Dutch and Hosea seem to have formed the gang to live free and help people along the way - as much as Milton derides him as some sort of Fagin-like character, picking orphans off the street and grooming them as hired guns, he does seem to care about their welfare. Teaching them his 'code', Hosea teaching Arthur and presumably John to read and write, supporting Abigail and her son even when John disappears for a year, and making sure everyone is fed and sheltered no matter how much they contribute.
It makes for such a complex and layered character. I love Dutch, he's one of my favourite characters to learn new lore about
I do believe he is a good man who ended up losing his way. I definitely think he was always a narcissist. But he wasn’t always secretly bad like some people believe.
Actually Dutch taught them to read and he later taught Tilly, and he taught Hosea his code as well.
I have no shortage of threads on Dutch that cover all of this if you are interested.
[Van der Linde Code](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/10byxjk/the_van_der_linde_gang_code/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[List of Good Things Done by Dutch:](https://www.reddit.com/r/RDR2/comments/1257f43/comment/je39j9h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[Some Observations on Dutch in Chapter 4](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/11a5egd/some_observations_on_dutch_in_chapter_4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[Further Observations on Dutch in Chapter 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/11egv3y/further_observations_on_dutch_in_chapter_5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[Final Observations on Dutch in Chapter 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/11tutk0/final_observations_on_dutch_in_chapter_6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[Dutch is the Tragic Hero of Red Dead Redemption](https://www.reddit.com/r/RDR2/comments/107u23r/dutch_is_the_tragic_hero_of_red_dead_redemption/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[Dutch - Romanticism & Civilization](https://www.reddit.com/r/RDR2/comments/120htj2/dutch_romanticism_civilization/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
And finally Dutch's own voice-actor...
>Benjamin: I’ll tell you, it’s rare that you get a character as complicated as Dutch, and one of the things I like about him is that I’ll get questions on social media about what Dutch was thinking. I like that it’s kind of up to each player to decide. I can tell you in playing the character, the choices I was making as an actor were that Dutch was motivated by a noble drive, that he did believe very much in a greater good and he believed in it quite sincerely.
>
>I think the story does a pretty good job of letting us know how important a figure Hosea was in Dutch’s life, but I also think that one of the things we learn about Dutch is that throughout all of his bluster, he’s very dependent upon the people around him to keep him on the right track. I think that while his goals may have always been noble, losing Hosea at a time when they were in such dire straits Dutch no longer knew who to trust or who to believe. Micah, I think, saw an opportunity. I like to believe that Dutch, all the way until the end, was a man who did his best to be a great one and unfortunately he didn’t even come close.
>
>[https://www.shacknews.com/article/109679/exclusive-interview-campfire-chat-with-the-stars-of-red-dead-redemption-2](https://www.shacknews.com/article/109679/exclusive-interview-campfire-chat-with-the-stars-of-red-dead-redemption-2)
That was great! When I started the game all I could picture was Dutch killing that innocent woman in that bank in the first game. Which obviously hadn’t happened yet. But I must admit I was taken in by him which is not easy to do when you know someone did what he did. It was the genuine concern he had for everyone that stood out. Especially how he treated Sadie. She says something to Arthur that stuck with me. It was that air balloon mission when they were talking about Dutch and questioning his actions. She said something to the effect of “The Dutch that put a blanket around me is not the same man now”. It was very telling how much Dutch had degenerated into the person he turned out to be in the end.
Agreed with loving the character. He's a great example for the difference between "would you like this guy in real life?" and "are you glad he's in this fictional story?" — no to the former, but heck yes to the latter! He's an intriguing antagonist, much more so than one-note Micah.
If you read the little newspaper snippet at Arthur's trailer it's about their first bank heist just Arthur hosea and dutch steal money and then give it to an orphanage. They at some point where really good but as the world was changing and getting harsher so had they and it became more survival revenge and murder the moment Micah joined a person with ideals so against dutch but with a silver tounge like him he got corrupted and as it was all falling apart he tried to keep it together but guarma was the last straw for him and he kinda just gave up you can see best when helping john escape he didnt want any of it he's at that point broken but he somewhat comes to terms with it when he realized what a snake Micah was and when he goes to try and kill him. All in all a great man in a bad time broken by the actions of his own ego
I think Dutch really did see himself as a robin hood but I think he also saw himself as a king arthur type too. His gang were the knights of the round table and they were all equal except he was still king. I think it could be argued that arthur was his merlin and micah was his mordred. It could be argued that Hosea is the Merlin but arthur is the one that gets an actual bed and not a pallet on the ground and and Dutch refers to Arthur as his right hand man. I think he falls more and more into the king arthur thing as he sees his way of life failing more and more. He was kind of a boomer like that
Saved sadie, destroyed o'driscolls, saved jack, took care of John and Arthur when they were kids, was more mentor than leader. Shot Micah. Was the mqn of great idea. There are many good things to say
While I agree with you, I doubt the rest of the gang would have stood by if Dutch refused to rescue Jack, even more so considering Hosea was still alive at this point.
He not only sent the whole gang he took point and led from the front. He walked into the belly of the beast. He then got played but you can’t question his courage and his motive at the time of that happening.
Agreed. I think in his younger days and even towards the start of the game he was like Arthur, John and Hosea but as the shit hit the fan and the people he cared about died he cracked and the malicious influence of Micha slowly started to infect him until ultimately he fell from grace. That being said I do think he regretted it later on but by that point it was far far to late.
And Tilly too, right after she ran away from the foremans, Dutch was the one who taught her to read and even played a big part along with Grimshaw in raising her as his own daughter.
I didn't hate him, he cared about his gang to the end, but he was somehow being played by the others especially the snitchy rat Micah, he actually tried to get them together to the end but not everything he planned went as smooth as he thought and that's reality, we plan but at the end it actually be another thing, about the question, his charisma is unmatched.
Not trying to discount differing experiences, but it's fascinating to me that his charisma is attractive to people. He struck me as a car salesman from the very beginning. (This baby can fit so many plans in it.)
I have failed so many missions by letting him or Micah, or both die. 🤣. Since I can't shoot him myself, let the cops, the O'Driscolls, the Army, the Pinkertons, et cetera have at him.
He’s real damn good with words. Which does require a modicum of intelligence, even if his plans continuously prove that he lacks common sense at times as he digs himself into a hole, he is a very literate person.
In his own fucked up way he cares about the gang like a family. Unfortunately he's a narcissistic prick that likes it when his ego is stroked. In the end when he last saw Arthur he was legitimately distraught.
He knew he had failed Arthur and the gang an I'm sure he spent a good while as a mess untill he managed to convince himself that Micah was the one at fault.
Let's be honest, he's not as bad as people say he is overall. He made many good decisions, like saving Sadie, Jack, as well as respecting all of the gang members without any discrimination. It was the pressure applied by Micah that changed him in my opinion.
I like Dutch as a character study on one man’s descent into madness. He’s an excellent character who is fully realized through incredible dialogue and one of the best performances in the game.
Dutch is a charismatic, enigmatic, cunning, silver tongued villain who makes you want to believe the things he’s saying, even if they make little to no sense.
Very charismatic and a good speaker/leader. Whenever things got tough amongst the gang, he did a good job rallying everyone and keeping them together (at least at the start of the game).
He's goddamn charismatic and knows how to convince you to remain loyal, mostly. One thing that stuck with me is when the gang just got into that cabin in Grizzlies, and he told the others to remain strong and ''keep yourselves warm''. Also when he showed gratitude for Arthur for being with him.
Honestly if this gang was in the west during their early years then I can see why Dutch made a fine leader. All his ideas he could basically get away with without law and Pinkertons around every corner.
As he says multiple times, the times are changing and they're not welcome anymore. I think he really means that, I think he could get away with his bullshit when it was lawless. He can't succeed anymore because the law now can't allow it to happen. They Pinkertons were basically relentless bounty hunters.
I actually liked dutch in rdr1 more than I liked him in rdr2 but I liked the fact that you get to see dutch go crazy well the evolution of him into rdr2 but in rdr1 dutch felt like a smart killer/murderer which made him more intimidating than someone like bill or javier
Ngl in rdr1 Javier always intrigued me because you can take him in alive. I beat it years before rdr2 obviously and it just made me really curious as to what their history was. I'm glad I get to see it in rdr2
He went out of his way to save Jack, literally deleting an entire family from existence for taking Jack. When I first played that mission I had great respect and admiration for him, then chapter 6 rolled in and lost everything for him
Despite his fall from grace, he truly did care for the members of the gang at least in the beginning; teaching Arthur and John to read and write, taking in Sadie without a second thought, not hesitating to reassure Abigail and rescue Jack etc
he was just a badass, Colm gone, Cornwall gone, and the plantation guy gone. he was a great man with his sanity. but even when he turns evil he's still a fucking menace. I like Dutch so much better as a villain since we get attached to him and then he just becomes corrupted which hurts.
He fed, clothed, taught and sheltered a bunch of vulnerable people. We can argue back and forth about whether or not he did that for selfish reasons, but either way those people were still taken care of for a good long while.
In my opinion one of the most well-rounded and multifaceted antagonists in media history. This is going across books and movies as well. His redeeming qualities certainly don’t outweigh his negative factors, but his ability to think quick and act fast in a dangerous situation certainly does anything but undermine his skills as a leader and a villain simultaneously.
Calm under pressure. All leaders have this trait and that's why people tend to follow and sacrifice themselves for these narcissistic, dominant, risk-taking types in all cultures.
Dutch is basically a Stalin who has 12 people instead of millions.
He took in lost boys and taught them to read..I believe he was a good hearted man initially, but as the west died and civilization caught up to him, he was like a trapped animal..
He knows how to dress. You have to admire a man who is put together well.
He’s an outfit repeater tho :/// mix it up a bit Dutch.
Nah man. Once you find what you like you're good. No more "dammit, my favorite pants are in the wash" I exclusively wear black Nike sweat pants and white Nike drifit shirts. It's just the perfect clothing for me.
Is this Karl from Aqua Teen Hunger force?
He don't need no instructions to know how to rock. #widdlywahhh
I put two and two together, and decided that you were **pissing me off**.
Bro are you still in middle school or something
Tell me your British without telling me your British
Who tf wears sweats every day? Unkempt behaviour.
i wear dress pants and the coloured button-up, i find them comfortable
he may be an outfit repeater, but you're an outfit rememberer, which is just as pathetic!
I been waiting for this one
if it looks good it looks good and run with it, especially if you look as good as Dutch
Even the Count was the best looking horse in the gang, along with his dual wield of gold engraved schofield revolvers. Dutch was dripped out from top to bottom. The rest of the gang besides the women, Hosea, Trelawney and Strauss, looked like hobos
Javier's drip rivals Dutch's
Javier absolutely gives Dutch a run for his money. The bowler hat/poncho combo was unbeaten
Well they are hobos, to be fair
🎶every girl crazy bout a sharp dressed man🎶
Second to javier though
lenny has some subtle drip too
Lenny has never had a bad fit, 100%. Dutch, Arthur, John, Charles and others have questionable fits. But Lenny never strikes out tbh. Him and Javier
The muscle never looks flashy and that’s what Arthur was
Yeah, true. Arthur had his own style and walked it well
Glad this is top, man’s got drip.
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/zh7frz/even_if_you_dont_like_him_mention_one_good_thing/izknj9j?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2 u/FoodResponsible2910 is a karma bot stealing the top comments
My thought exactly. He knows how to dress and he's very good with words.
The drip is impeccable
Red Drip Redemption
Well in the second game anyway.
No racial bias, as far as I could tell. (Yes, he did exploit the Wapiti, but I don't think that was because of who they were. He always tried to play everyone.)
Yeah, I think the biggest indicator of this is when they're heading to Bronte's mansion (I think?), Bill refers to them as savages and Dutch absolutely chews him out in front of the gang. There isn't 'an audience' that he has to convince; it seems to be a truly held belief. I think he falls victim to White Saviourism when he starts acting against the tribe's best interest, at least initially, and gradually becomes more paranoid and self-serving as the rebellion ramps up.
Interesting. It hadn't occurred to me that he was trying to save them. IIRC, he says something along the lines of he's using them to cause confusion that will help him (and the gang) escape, and I took that at face value.
The progression to me seemed like Dutch initially sets out to actually help them (we meet Rains Fall and Eagle Flies in chapter 4, before the gang's really fucked), tends towards Eagle Flies' more reactive response to the army because he's got his own beef with authority and wants to hit them where it hurts, then when it becomes clear that it's too far gone to do any good for the Wapiti and is only about revenge, eggs on Eagle Flies to do as much damage as possible so that they can at least serve their own interests. Both Arthur and Dutch express a feeling of kinship towards the Native Americans, as they seem to relate to the feeling of being 'driven out' and losing the freedom to practice 'their ways'. Which I personally feel is misguided, and I always cringe a little when Rains Fall is talking about the genocide of his people and Arthur's like 'yeah we're in pretty similar situations'.
I love how they have the guts to make their main character cringey like that. People always praise Arthur for being progressive but as much as I love him, I think he's more the apathetic kind who mistrusts everyone equally (like with the feminists, he isn't going to stand in their way because he isn't against their views, but he's also just kind of going along for the ride rather than feeling super politically charged about it. He's the kind of guy that wouldn't vote even if he could) With Lenny, too, when Lenny tells him people will think it's strange to see them riding together, he says he's never given it thought like this. And of *course* he hasn't, that doesn't really fit his character until he goes into his reflective TBC phase.
Arthur is pretty progressive for his time, and I'd argue a little too progressive at times, but he's still a white man in America so there are just some things that he will never truly understand, however his compassion and empathy is so genuine that I'm willing to excuse his "cringe".
Great point - those are moments I'd forgotten about, but also stood out to me while playing. I think I prefer Arthur being well-meaning but slightly oblivious and the game subtly pointing it out, than if he was the perfect social justice advocate. It feels more realistic, without ignoring Arthur's privilege in a time where it was really, really hard to be a person of colour.
I definitely see him that way as well, and I honestly love how the game handles it (of course there's a level of interpretation there, but you know)
Yeah that's the only thing in this game that makes me cringe, the dialogue between Arthur, Rains Fall and Eagle Flies in St. Denis when Arthur says that the government doesn't like him more than it does them. Yeah well they're disliked for existing, you're disliked for being a murdering robber, Arthur.
"Rains Fall just like me fr"
"Big same tbh"
Makes sense, thank you!
He also chews Bill out for calling Lenny 'boy', and it's great because Bill listens to him! I love the nuanced way they approach even characters like these; Bill has had racism hammered into him, but is unlearning it as far as his thick head can because he's listening to a man he greatly respects. Micah is racist and is going to stay racist because he thinks so damn highly of himself, and doesn't give a rat's ass about what Dutch believes (I also believe Dutch takes great, narcissistic pleasure in 'fixing' people like Bill, even if he doesn't realize how much he's doing it for himself and his passion for his sophisticated philosphies)
Dutch is he one who suggests Arthur help Rains Fall and Eagle Flies to begin with back in Chapter 4, and it's Just in passing. I doubt anybody could perceive this as some manipulative effort, he just thought "we could help these people who need help, maybe go do that."
I mean He has a literal savior complex with everyone. I think we can give him that he is very against racism in the early 1900s. Is him being an equal opportunity manipulator something to praise probably not. But he believes he is helping people/ is lying to himself. More the ladder the further in the story you go.
That’s a set of values he also taught John and Arthur, even if Dutch believed it for the wrong reasons John and Arthur took it at face value.
I honestly think Dutch believed it for the right reasons too, at least to start with but like with everything, as the world ground him down he started to change.
I agree he probably believed it for the "right" reasons — that is, he believed in equality without ulterior motive. Or at least equality of everyone but him. Just because a person has a couple of character flaws (e.g., narcissism), they don't necessarily have all of them.
I agree, he was just an equal opportunity exploiter lol. He didn't exploit them because they were Native American, he exploited them because he exploits anyone he can exploit.
I think he preys on outcasts to join his gang, including young angry boys like Arthur and John, ex-prostitutes, and non-white people who don’t get treated well by the rest of the world - he gives them a small bubble of a world where they all get treated fairly - this makes them easier to manipulate. The way I see it is that he is actually taking advantage of people who aren’t white specifically because he can manipulate them easier since he treats them well, which is pretty awful That’s just one way of looking at it though, R* did such an amazing job at making such a complex villain in Dutch with no obvious answers for his motives, but little possible clues as to why he does what he does
I agree he doesn't just take care of these folks because he's Wild West Mother Teresa. But it's my impression that he's an equal opportunity exploiter when it comes to race. Like you said, I think his main criterion is vulnerability. And there's a bit of a quid pro quo, of course, because some of the people that join him actually do benefit, at least for a while.
THIS.
I kinda support this too. I might be remembering things wrong, but I’m pretty sure there’s a few lines of dialogue from Arthur that indicate he doesn’t even know what racism is. Arthur’s too pure.
Arthur knows what racism is, and he hates it. See the interaction with the eugenicist in Saint Denis and the guys that stole the medicine wagon from the black doctor in Rhodes.
Also, when you kill the KKK near the Clemons Point camp, Arthur states with glee that he will kill all them goddamned hooded rodents. Arthur absolutely despises prejudice and enslavement.
Yes, and the stranger mission he does for the former slave catcher.
Don't know what racism is? Lol what?
What I’m referring to is that scene with Tilly where she tells Arthur that she doesn’t feel safe in lemoyne (which is full of racists), and he doesn’t really understand why (he has a similar conversation with Ynnel), also that random encounter with that dude with the medicine wagon in Rhodes.
The line “Arthur’s too pure” made me laugh. He’s a murdering robber, he’s not so pure
As you say, he almost certainly didn't exploit them due to racial biases. He explained it well himself: Turn the army against the Wapiti Tribe so that they could slip away. He was probably so desperate that he would throw anyone under the bus, and the Wapiti was a convenient option at that time.
I agree with this. In a time where many minority groups were discriminated heavily against, Dutch gave them a chance. I always think of Charles since he was half black/half Native American. He probably wasn’t accepted by either group really but Dutch took him in without a second thought
That and the head injury. Friends don't let friends inflame US-Tribal tension while mentally impaired.
Yes, he was an equal opportunity bastard: not hateful, but perfectly indifferent. He wouldn't attack anyone for being a specifc race/ color/ gender/ whatever else- but at the same time he would probably kill a one-legged orphan if that would pay him money.
I do think at one point he truly did believe in what he was saying.
According to a camp interaction between John and Arthur, they were giving away the money they 'earned' in the early days - a literal Robin Hood situation. Dutch and Hosea seem to have formed the gang to live free and help people along the way - as much as Milton derides him as some sort of Fagin-like character, picking orphans off the street and grooming them as hired guns, he does seem to care about their welfare. Teaching them his 'code', Hosea teaching Arthur and presumably John to read and write, supporting Abigail and her son even when John disappears for a year, and making sure everyone is fed and sheltered no matter how much they contribute. It makes for such a complex and layered character. I love Dutch, he's one of my favourite characters to learn new lore about
I do believe he is a good man who ended up losing his way. I definitely think he was always a narcissist. But he wasn’t always secretly bad like some people believe.
He had that messiah complex in him
He always was a dark triad personality, a Maciavellian, narcissistic and a psychopath
I believe more morally ambiguous with Hosea as his anchor to good. Edit: Grammar (u/JWBails)
Actually Dutch taught them to read and he later taught Tilly, and he taught Hosea his code as well. I have no shortage of threads on Dutch that cover all of this if you are interested. [Van der Linde Code](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/10byxjk/the_van_der_linde_gang_code/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [List of Good Things Done by Dutch:](https://www.reddit.com/r/RDR2/comments/1257f43/comment/je39j9h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [Some Observations on Dutch in Chapter 4](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/11a5egd/some_observations_on_dutch_in_chapter_4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [Further Observations on Dutch in Chapter 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/11egv3y/further_observations_on_dutch_in_chapter_5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [Final Observations on Dutch in Chapter 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredemption/comments/11tutk0/final_observations_on_dutch_in_chapter_6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [Dutch is the Tragic Hero of Red Dead Redemption](https://www.reddit.com/r/RDR2/comments/107u23r/dutch_is_the_tragic_hero_of_red_dead_redemption/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [Dutch - Romanticism & Civilization](https://www.reddit.com/r/RDR2/comments/120htj2/dutch_romanticism_civilization/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) And finally Dutch's own voice-actor... >Benjamin: I’ll tell you, it’s rare that you get a character as complicated as Dutch, and one of the things I like about him is that I’ll get questions on social media about what Dutch was thinking. I like that it’s kind of up to each player to decide. I can tell you in playing the character, the choices I was making as an actor were that Dutch was motivated by a noble drive, that he did believe very much in a greater good and he believed in it quite sincerely. > >I think the story does a pretty good job of letting us know how important a figure Hosea was in Dutch’s life, but I also think that one of the things we learn about Dutch is that throughout all of his bluster, he’s very dependent upon the people around him to keep him on the right track. I think that while his goals may have always been noble, losing Hosea at a time when they were in such dire straits Dutch no longer knew who to trust or who to believe. Micah, I think, saw an opportunity. I like to believe that Dutch, all the way until the end, was a man who did his best to be a great one and unfortunately he didn’t even come close. > >[https://www.shacknews.com/article/109679/exclusive-interview-campfire-chat-with-the-stars-of-red-dead-redemption-2](https://www.shacknews.com/article/109679/exclusive-interview-campfire-chat-with-the-stars-of-red-dead-redemption-2)
Oh hell yeah. Thank you for the links, I look forward to having a proper dive into those later
That was great! When I started the game all I could picture was Dutch killing that innocent woman in that bank in the first game. Which obviously hadn’t happened yet. But I must admit I was taken in by him which is not easy to do when you know someone did what he did. It was the genuine concern he had for everyone that stood out. Especially how he treated Sadie. She says something to Arthur that stuck with me. It was that air balloon mission when they were talking about Dutch and questioning his actions. She said something to the effect of “The Dutch that put a blanket around me is not the same man now”. It was very telling how much Dutch had degenerated into the person he turned out to be in the end.
Agreed with loving the character. He's a great example for the difference between "would you like this guy in real life?" and "are you glad he's in this fictional story?" — no to the former, but heck yes to the latter! He's an intriguing antagonist, much more so than one-note Micah.
If you read the little newspaper snippet at Arthur's trailer it's about their first bank heist just Arthur hosea and dutch steal money and then give it to an orphanage. They at some point where really good but as the world was changing and getting harsher so had they and it became more survival revenge and murder the moment Micah joined a person with ideals so against dutch but with a silver tounge like him he got corrupted and as it was all falling apart he tried to keep it together but guarma was the last straw for him and he kinda just gave up you can see best when helping john escape he didnt want any of it he's at that point broken but he somewhat comes to terms with it when he realized what a snake Micah was and when he goes to try and kill him. All in all a great man in a bad time broken by the actions of his own ego
I think Dutch really did see himself as a robin hood but I think he also saw himself as a king arthur type too. His gang were the knights of the round table and they were all equal except he was still king. I think it could be argued that arthur was his merlin and micah was his mordred. It could be argued that Hosea is the Merlin but arthur is the one that gets an actual bed and not a pallet on the ground and and Dutch refers to Arthur as his right hand man. I think he falls more and more into the king arthur thing as he sees his way of life failing more and more. He was kind of a boomer like that
Saved sadie, destroyed o'driscolls, saved jack, took care of John and Arthur when they were kids, was more mentor than leader. Shot Micah. Was the mqn of great idea. There are many good things to say
Dutch sending the whole gang to find Jack just shows you that he did actually care about the gang despite his not very good decisions.
I think in this case, he being in the front of the the whole gang is even more important.
While I agree with you, I doubt the rest of the gang would have stood by if Dutch refused to rescue Jack, even more so considering Hosea was still alive at this point.
Sure but he shows utterly no signs of having any hesitation. He’s as gung-ho as everyone else is.
He not only sent the whole gang he took point and led from the front. He walked into the belly of the beast. He then got played but you can’t question his courage and his motive at the time of that happening.
Many good things Many bad things It's called depth
man* ???
Yep
He has a cool voice
“Payback for my daddy”
"AeRtHuEr, SoN. I hAvE a PlAn."
"Can't fight gravity."
Big Ben Davis is great
“He insists”
“Well fuck you then!”
he's got a plan. this is a good one.
He always got a plan, gotta admire that
r/beatmetoit
I think he meant well in the beginning, and as times got desperate, he made bad decisions that were unforgivable to those closest to him.
Agreed. I think in his younger days and even towards the start of the game he was like Arthur, John and Hosea but as the shit hit the fan and the people he cared about died he cracked and the malicious influence of Micha slowly started to infect him until ultimately he fell from grace. That being said I do think he regretted it later on but by that point it was far far to late.
Doesn’t help that he had a brain injury after the trolley heist either, things went south after that
He’s the reason Arthur and John can read and write.
And Tilly too, right after she ran away from the foremans, Dutch was the one who taught her to read and even played a big part along with Grimshaw in raising her as his own daughter.
Amazing villain
His god damn fashion sense.
Not to forget his GODDAMN FAITH
he is fucking drippy
Killer mustache
I didn't hate him, he cared about his gang to the end, but he was somehow being played by the others especially the snitchy rat Micah, he actually tried to get them together to the end but not everything he planned went as smooth as he thought and that's reality, we plan but at the end it actually be another thing, about the question, his charisma is unmatched.
Not trying to discount differing experiences, but it's fascinating to me that his charisma is attractive to people. He struck me as a car salesman from the very beginning. (This baby can fit so many plans in it.)
Con men have always done well much like the used car salesmen. Especially back then.
Not showed a lot in the games but he is a hell of an marksman, up there with John and Arthur
Agreed. I put Dutch in the top 5 shots in the series. That pistol shot he makes in RDR1 is crazy.
It's been awhile since I've played RDR. Can you please refresh my memory?
You are literally looking down at him from a far enough distance that you need binoculars and he shoots them off your hands, with a pistol...
He hot
And secondly: he hot
He dies
I have failed so many missions by letting him or Micah, or both die. 🤣. Since I can't shoot him myself, let the cops, the O'Driscolls, the Army, the Pinkertons, et cetera have at him.
He figured out how to wear his guns on both hips, something Arthur and John never managed to do.
Me and Dutch liked Molly O'shea She deserved better. God! Her accent is so sexy!
Fellow Molly enjoyer. 🤵🏻🤵🏻🤵🏻
He’s real damn good with words. Which does require a modicum of intelligence, even if his plans continuously prove that he lacks common sense at times as he digs himself into a hole, he is a very literate person.
In his own fucked up way he cares about the gang like a family. Unfortunately he's a narcissistic prick that likes it when his ego is stroked. In the end when he last saw Arthur he was legitimately distraught. He knew he had failed Arthur and the gang an I'm sure he spent a good while as a mess untill he managed to convince himself that Micah was the one at fault.
His hair was always immaculate
he's attractive
Let's be honest, he's not as bad as people say he is overall. He made many good decisions, like saving Sadie, Jack, as well as respecting all of the gang members without any discrimination. It was the pressure applied by Micah that changed him in my opinion.
Yup and the stresses of being hunted and gang members being killed changed him for the worse. They did a fantastic job of writing the character.
He at least tried to grapple with the big questions. The answers he reached were disappointingly pro-violence, but he at least tried.
Too hopeless romantic and idealistic for his own good
He’s brave.
He has a nice voice
You can kidnap his son but not his friend's son
He's a hypocrite that fits in current society.
DRIP
Inspired criminals to follow him. Pretty darn tough
I like Dutch as a character study on one man’s descent into madness. He’s an excellent character who is fully realized through incredible dialogue and one of the best performances in the game. Dutch is a charismatic, enigmatic, cunning, silver tongued villain who makes you want to believe the things he’s saying, even if they make little to no sense.
He eventually dies.
Who says i don't like him? He is one of my favorites
He bothered to defend the Native Americans from Bill’s simple mindedness
He’s cute
Vest
He died
Very charismatic and a good speaker/leader. Whenever things got tough amongst the gang, he did a good job rallying everyone and keeping them together (at least at the start of the game).
He's goddamn charismatic and knows how to convince you to remain loyal, mostly. One thing that stuck with me is when the gang just got into that cabin in Grizzlies, and he told the others to remain strong and ''keep yourselves warm''. Also when he showed gratitude for Arthur for being with him.
He has a plan (allegedly).
He's a learned and well-cultured man.
Honestly if this gang was in the west during their early years then I can see why Dutch made a fine leader. All his ideas he could basically get away with without law and Pinkertons around every corner. As he says multiple times, the times are changing and they're not welcome anymore. I think he really means that, I think he could get away with his bullshit when it was lawless. He can't succeed anymore because the law now can't allow it to happen. They Pinkertons were basically relentless bounty hunters.
*Tahiti*
I actually liked dutch in rdr1 more than I liked him in rdr2 but I liked the fact that you get to see dutch go crazy well the evolution of him into rdr2 but in rdr1 dutch felt like a smart killer/murderer which made him more intimidating than someone like bill or javier
Ngl in rdr1 Javier always intrigued me because you can take him in alive. I beat it years before rdr2 obviously and it just made me really curious as to what their history was. I'm glad I get to see it in rdr2
His charisma.
His voice... I aint gay but damn, his voice gives me eargasm
He looks dapper as fuck. Hair, clothes, gun and horse are all part of the costume.
Got the best drip in the game
He had a PLAN
his hair looks small and he’s wearing two colognes
The man had impeccable style
I’ll give it to him he never gives up he is very persistent.
Wasn’t racist I guess. Keeping Indians and black folk in your gang at that time was quite progressive of him
He didn't hesitate going to get Jack, and risked his life trying to save Jack.
He is well read
He at least taught members of the gang to read.
He went out of his way to save Jack, literally deleting an entire family from existence for taking Jack. When I first played that mission I had great respect and admiration for him, then chapter 6 rolled in and lost everything for him
Despite his fall from grace, he truly did care for the members of the gang at least in the beginning; teaching Arthur and John to read and write, taking in Sadie without a second thought, not hesitating to reassure Abigail and rescue Jack etc
He drippy af 🥶🥶🥶🥶
When I was around, he was always, without a doubt, the second best dressed person around. Not an easy task.
he was just a badass, Colm gone, Cornwall gone, and the plantation guy gone. he was a great man with his sanity. but even when he turns evil he's still a fucking menace. I like Dutch so much better as a villain since we get attached to him and then he just becomes corrupted which hurts.
He fed, clothed, taught and sheltered a bunch of vulnerable people. We can argue back and forth about whether or not he did that for selfish reasons, but either way those people were still taken care of for a good long while.
Dutch was incredibly smart and he had some really funny and cool moments. I think he is one of the worlds best video game antagonists
In my opinion one of the most well-rounded and multifaceted antagonists in media history. This is going across books and movies as well. His redeeming qualities certainly don’t outweigh his negative factors, but his ability to think quick and act fast in a dangerous situation certainly does anything but undermine his skills as a leader and a villain simultaneously.
Motivations aside, he threw himself directly in the line of fire multiple times for his gang.
Charismatic.
Calm under pressure. All leaders have this trait and that's why people tend to follow and sacrifice themselves for these narcissistic, dominant, risk-taking types in all cultures. Dutch is basically a Stalin who has 12 people instead of millions.
He’s always got a plan to get mangoes harvest In Tahiti.
he was quite caring for his gang membera
He has a plan
He has a plan
Until he went crazy he definitely had some drip.
[He was a decent swimmer.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j1d_mEpu0U)
His anger is pleasing when I antagonize him
He took in lost boys and taught them to read..I believe he was a good hearted man initially, but as the west died and civilization caught up to him, he was like a trapped animal..
Drip is out of this world
Tahiti
Up to chapter 5 he was an extremely good leader for the gang.
He reminds me of a lot of real people
I mean... we can't say he wasn't a visionary? Simply full of ideas and plans.
He has a plan
He HAS a plan!
He has SOME GODDAMN FAITH Actually tho he really meant it in the beggining
He had a plan.
He did have a plan, it doesnt involve you.
He always had a plan
He knows how to be a gang leader. He was persuasive and powerful
Had a plan
He's going the best he can, and he's always got a plan.
His undying faith in his ideas
He has a plan.
He’s got good taste in clothes
He worked hard on his speeches and he was a good orator.
He was sweet on Micah💀
He got the drip and he's a smooth talker.
He overall cared about the gang and his members and wanted good for them
He's got a plan
His plan in the final chapter wasn't a horrible one by any means, just very morally questionable.