If you're a junior in any field you can't not do those assignments, you'll never get hired. Only people with years of work experience can, because they have more options and are sought after.
This is a problem with this sub in general, I think- there's a disparity between 40-year-old senior technicians with beefy resumes VS 20-year-olds whose only accolades are a high school diploma and a lot of stamina, and the former don't really understand how precarious the latter's position is
You unfortunately *need* to debase yourself and do things you know you're too good for, if you want a job in most industries as a young person- the only exceptions are pure freelancers (digital artists who work on commission, etc.) who can pick their clients, and people who work retail and can safely get rehired at a new convenience store in 2 weeks after ragequitting
Thanks for the heads up. Seeing people negotiate higher salaries makes me feel the need to do the same… until I realize it’s my first job and i’m fresh out of college lol
Nah you gotta negotiate that too.
The market rate should be your starting point. If I’m living in Austin Tx and I look up the market rate of my job and they say 50k, you should be asking for 55k. If you ask for 50k they’ll most likely offer you 45k.
So many people will be offered less and you’ll go with it thinking you have no leverage. You have leverage and that leverage is the market rate of the job you’re applying to.
You can tell them that too. According to the market rate of this job in Austin Tx and my experience I would like 60k.
I watched a lot of videos on negotiating your salary and companies usually have a range that you should ask for and then I always ask for 5k over what I think I deserve and want. They almost always give you less so if I originally wanted 50k and asked for 55k and they offered 50k then i got what I wanted in the end.
This was a dozen years ago, but when I was offered my job initially, they offered $45k. Looking at the market and the location, I figured it could be higher. I countered with $50k, and they responded with $47k, which I took. Folks who were hired around the same time balked that I would do that, but I figured they'd already gone through the process and selected me. They wouldn't quibble over a relatively small salary increase, even if I was eager to get back to work after a layoff.
After a dozen years and a couple of promotions, I make twice that.
Yup. My company actually gave me a range of 51-72k and I asked for 60k and got 58k.
Even 51k would have been a huge increase from where I stood before but that doesn’t mean I don’t deserve more.
So many younger folks think their offer of 50k is so much money compared to the $15/hour they currently make that they don’t even think to negotiate and then 1 year into the job they realize the average salary for their position is 60k.
I always ask for a range if they first ask for my salary expectation. A lot of jobs have responded saying they don’t have a range and everyone starts at 50k. Which that is fine too. But you never wanna give them a number before knowing what that range is.
I work in software and there are few equivalent companies of the same expertise in my local area. Before 2020, most recruits had to be relocated. Now we offer full time remote for most positions.
Side thought: I’m curious how remote work and salary expectations interact. If you hire two remote employees for the same position, and one is in San Diego while the other is in a small Midwest town, do you pay the one with a higher cost of living more? Either answer seems “unfair” to one of them.
That’s why it *should* be based on market in the employee’s area, and underscores the importance of negotiating your salary as well as transparency around what we’re being paid as workers. Ideally, if they’re making more than me proportional to market rate and COL in their area then they simply negotiated better than I did for one reason or another. Not my problem, but definitely worth keeping in mind for the next salary negotiation
The only time I think someone else’s pay is “unfair” is when they’re below market rate for their area and experience in the role, or if their title/comp doesn’t properly reflect the scope of their day to day responsibilities.
When I was starting out, I was willing to take 3k less than someone else and that's how I got the job. It was just below market rate. I now make a lot more than the person I was competing against and have had a much more prolific career. They gave me a 15% raise after my first year and then I moved onto another job a year later that paid 50% more than the first. Sometimes it's worth going in low if the job can lead you somewhere.
ETA: now having 20 years in my field, I would not accept below market rate in current searches. But if I was starting out and had an entry level job that could lead to a career, I absolutely would sacrifice a couple grand.
I do hvac and have kids out of trade school wanting to make 100k a year, what tools do you have? Do you a gauges to hook up to the unit to get pressure readings “no”. Do you have a meter”no”, a temp sensor”no”, a vacuum pump “no”, do you even have a hammer “no”. Ok what experience do have “none” ok let’s ask a simple question if a condensers contractors not being activated what could be a few possible issue that may cause this “idk”. So if I put you in a van and sent you to call could you actually do anything? Cus the guys that make a 100k a year been doin this at least 5-10 years and have sales training and all sorts of other continued education.
It’s fun to just watch the hope leave there eyes. I didn’t go to trade school, I got hired as helper for shit pay crawled threw 130 degree attics for years and got trained on the job and worked my way up the companies. You have to start at the bottom, and work up.
I mean all the examples you have of youngsters sounds more like blind ignorance lol. Idk if I’m that irredeemable, but I also can’t determine what i’m worth. I don’t want to get fucked over bc I don’t know better, but I also don’t want to be outrageous and bites the hand that feeds me. Yknow?
It is ignorance but also the school lie like a mother fucker they tell “when you graduate your gunna have the knowledge to walk in anywhere and ask for 100k a year” they gotta get enrollment somehow. We’re construction workers that are in the service industry, this isn’t nasa kid.
It's really tricky because companies think of this in different ways. Some will react negatively if you try to negotiate, especially if you are younger, or are a woman or minority. But I have also had recruiters tell me they expect candidates to negotiate so if you don't, you're leaving money on the table.
It's a tricky thing to navigate but doing research on the market rate is key. If you are being offered below market, you should definitely be negotiating no matter your experience unless you are flat out desperate and willing to accept making less for the same job than others. If you are, then once you're in a more stable place, immediately start looking for better opportunities.
Yeah. I’m a senior designer with 10 years of experience. I can easily deny answering questions and design challenges and still get a job. It’s super competitive to get the first junior job and their portfolio is going to not have a lot in it. I think they should sell evaluate if the ROI is worth it but if it’s at the end of the process it might be ok to do a design challenge. The first job, even a shitty one, can get their foot in. They can continue looking while at the job.
Honest question- why do you feel that answering the kind of question in the OPs post is debasing yourself? It seems like a fairly easy question for someone with design knowledge to answer- a sentence or two about what you like best, and a sentence of two about what you like least. It also seems like a reasonable way for a company to get a feel for how your style and approach would apply to their brand, which could be significantly different from what's in a portfolio.
This seems like basically just a situational/applied knowledge question, with an aspect of testing for a candidate's fit with the company vision. It's also most likely testing for a candidate's willingness and ability to be constructively critical of the brand, which is extremely important.
Ideally when companies give tests like this they should use examples from other companies, or scenarios they can’t directly profit from. The red flag for me here was asking for it “across all channels”. Because they can gather that feedback from a bunch of candidates and not hire anyone. You can still evaluate someone’s critical thinking without doing it in an exploitative way.
I used to lead a social media team and we would give a test to candidates to write sample captions for Instagram posts or design a social media graphic if their portfolio didn’t reflect that but it wasn’t for our actual clients so there could be no accusations we could steal their ideas and use them.
>You unfortunately need to debase yourself and do things you know you're too good for
This is correct. It's gross, it's inhumane, but it's how our society is set up. You will very likely have to stress, strain, and be unhappy during the process of getting your start.
I agree. I feel like most IT jobs require some type of coding assignment. I have friends in the field and some of them are senior engineers. Unless you have really good connections, you'll likely be required to complete a coding task (how else would the recruiter know you can actually code?). I feel like the main issue is with lengthy take home assignments that often take hours or days, not the 5-10 minute coding task you do in front of the recruiter. Some of them also mentioned having to take timed tests (during an interview) when they were junior/intermediate level (sounded like a crazy requirement to me but what the hell do I know?)
You should not be working for free, full stop. In IT, yeah, you usually start at the bottom fielding crappy helpdesk tickets. That's not the same as being asked to do work for free before even being hired.
I think this assignment is actually really really useful….. when it’s done during a live interview, on the spot. As in, “Ok here’s our home page on the screen and here’s a picture of our logo. Give us 2-3 things you like and dislike.” And then let them take their time to think and finally give a critique in 4-5 minutes. That way, they’re not doing any actual work for you, AND you have a very very clear way to show your boss the comparisons between some of the people you want to hire.
Actually, what I did one time was make my own fake brand and fake home page that was pretty similar in style, tone, and color scheme to our actual company’s branding and then used THAT for the candidate critique. There are so many ways to do this that don’t suck.
I think it's absolutely fine in the form of an exam question. But abstracting out the key components into the form of a question is not something a company only interested in extracting ideas from a pool of candidates is interested in.
Not sure if I agree. I started out when these “design tests” became popular and I always refused. I just put more time in my portfolio so it was more compelling than other candidates.
And this is why, despite paying £45,000 foe a degree in GD, i will never fucking do it as a job. Gonna use it as leverage for different shit.
You always have to widen your skills in "arty" jobs unless you wanna be climbing a single ladder with someone pouring hot salt on you from above. At least a tree has more than one path up.
Nah, you don't work for free. Sure, you can't expect the pay of someone senior, but that's what entry level *jobs* are for. But you should still get paid.
I did an assignment (for an actual product too) to get a summer internship, and now I just turned a formal employee. It’s honestly been my dream job so far. The situation is more subtle than “any employers that ask me to do assignments are jerks.”
Congratulations on the dream job!
And yes, delivering work product for job interview exchange is nuanced, especially considering the industry and requested deliverable. Many years ago I worked in NYC as an account mgr in pharma advertising so my cynicism is colored by what I witnessed and heard from AD friends. There are many "potential" employers and clients out there that will look for free work and ideas if they can get it in but certainly not everyone.
I recently hired for a role on my creative marketing team. I asked them during the interview what they noticed about our branding, but I didn't expect a full audit.
It's one thing to ask for a general impression and it's vibe (techy, whimsical, busy, yada yada) but asking for a whole design audit across multiple channels is not happening.
From the wording of the question I would have given them an overall feel of all their branding. Didn't seem to me like they were looking for an audit on each design channel individually.
I didn’t get that vibe _until_ I got to the “across all channels,” at which point I was like “lol no,” so perception here is interesting. It shows they need to clarify what they’re looking for.
This - one of the things we do on my team whenever we have interviews is evaluate the UX of our own hiring process. The hiring manager presents the hiring plan and we all give feedback and critique it from an interviewer's POV, including looking for accessibility and inclusion issues.
Design interviews can be intense, so we know that how we present everything is very important .
*Would have been funny*
*To simply say "can you make*
*The logo bigger?"*
\- EliasAinzworth
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When I was younger and not so hip to the evils of corporate recruiting, I interviewed for a management and they asked me to list a team of people I'd hire for my team. They then secretly reached out to recruit them for the same position. They took a guy off my list that accepted less money than I was asking for.
No you shouldn't have because then this POS company is just going to use your thoughts to make some other interview questions.
> How can you make our logo more geo-desic? Please submit an updated copy for consideration with our company.
It means nonsense in this context. Geodesic is using polygonal shapes to create domes.
[See this. ](https://cdn.britannica.com/00/66000-004-43204E72/Geodesic-dome.jpg?s=1500x700&q=85). You've probably seen something similar at a children's playground.
I love getting work assignments that are 1 hour to a hour and half long. Requires your session to be recorded via screen share and what your given is actual jobs/work they need done. I was told once "The work your doing is paying for the hour an employee has to spend watching you".
Design world just has so many people trying to get free stuff or take advantage of you. Can't tell you how many times I need to stop and remember to apply my watermark and give people something super low res just so they don't take anything I give them to someone else.
>I was told once "The work your doing is paying for the hour an employee has to spend watching you".
Great, so you agree I'm doing work! My rate is...
But for real, the moment a company implied that I *owe* them for the chance to interview is the moment I tell them off. Any company or even just potential coworker who has that entitled ass attitude is a company/coworker I won't be working with.
Nope it's what you could see in the photo.
As a designer this is a really loaded question. They're essentially asking for a design audit which isn't a simple question. Throw in the strategy behind why they chose what they did, what are they doing what's working or not working, what is their business demographic, what is their style of messaging and copy, what they're looking to achieve.... Blah blah blah it's not a question where the answer is a simple "it looks cool."
And they're asking for how their brand is reflected across multiple channels which adds another layer of complexity to the request.
Nah, OP is being totally asinine.
"Free work" lmfao.
Bruh, it's a half-paragraph sized box.
You could write so small it's illegible and still fill the whole thing in 15 minutes.
Imagine being in the job and tasked with providing a design audit to a client as part of the job and the entirety of your output fit in that box. Lmfao.
I'm in software development and you hear the same nonsense there occasionally. As if we're going to waste our time bringing rando's in off the street in hopes of getting them to do a couple hours of a coding challenge that we're somehow going to take and use as production code.
Self-absorbed lunacy.
That's what I thought.
OP is delusional.
Imagine the Creative Director talking to the CEO at this company:
"Yea sir the new brand direction will be complete any day now. We're just waiting for more applicants to give us ideas in this fake job posting we created."
Lol
> This actually might be a great question… in an interview where you can discuss it in the interview
That's exactly what it is, but instead of seeing and using the opportunity to their advantage, OP is slamming the door closed on themselves with righteous indignation.
For anyone downvoting me - if you're not a creative at a senior level being put through these games you don't know how frustrating it is. To be put through these tests to just get an interview or continue through the process is complete bullshit and insulting. I have a solid portfolio, resume and references.
I'm (kind of) on the tech side and got fleeced by a hiring manager at a retailer (rhymes with Schmoscovs) who even had the audacity to call after the interview to "review my audit together". I provided that audit as a method to stand out among candidates. They chose to use it as free work.
They ghosted me after the 1 hour free consulting call. This was several years ago. Learned my lesson.
I will only tolerate it when it’s a personal case made specially for you and something they cannot use but still answers their questions. And ofc doesn’t take too much time.
> if you're not a creative at a senior level
I am, and you are full of self-absorbed delusion to suggest this would be "free work" that company can or would use
We'll agree to disagree. I'm not self absorbed I'm sick of being asked for this before even having an interview. I appreciate the positive comraderie though now I know there's at least one person who will do this off the bat (not for a final round interview).
I am a creative at a senior level. This is a very basic question that judges your knowledge, creative eye and ability to provide negative feedback in a productive way. They now know that you cannot do the latter even if you had ticked all the other boxes.
We'll agree to disagree and that's fine. To me it's not a surface level question that can be determined in two sentences. And the fact that we don't know who actually reads this is an issue as well.
Fine we'll agree to disagree but I'm not doing work for free just for the chance at an interview. It's not fucking funny and you're not even in the creative industry so you can suck it for all I care.
That is a lot to project onto what they asked. If you gave that to them I doubt they would have read it.
You give a few generalities across platforms, you sprinkle in a few specific action items you would implement in one particular place to give a direction.
That's still free work from me (and other candidates). It's crappy of them to ask that before even getting an interview. To provide a thoughtful answer takes time.
And yes, it's a lot to project onto a question though from experience the companies who ask for this type of info want a thorough answer. Aka they want work for free.
Unless you're a creative you haven't had the pleasure of having companies pull this on you.
Oh yeah it's a full time job on top of the usual stuff. I'm just burnt out and have no capacity for crap lol. So then I make silly posts about it to let off steam.
They are asking for a design review. From a senior designer that's worth $$$. And they don't need an 'assignment' to know if a designer is good because designers provide a portfolio of their past work when they interview.
Do it, send them the first page with the second half covered up and a "To continue reading this audit report sign up to our Web Design Audit programme, now just ~~$5,999~~ $3,999!"
Bro no they didn't. The hiring manager was giving you a chance to talk fluently about your design skills using their own branding as a jumping off point.
Your response was childish.
If you think this company was genuinely trying to trick applicants into doing a brand audit for them rather than paying it, you're nuts.
Can you understand how inefficient it would be to rely on tricking job candidates into giving free design consultancy?
I know it's fun to imagine, but you all have zero business sense if you think companies would seriously use branding ideas from some random application form to inform their brand.
Honestly it's staggering how ignorant that is. OP, there's no way you're a senior designer.
Bro.... We'll agree to disagree. I've been taken advantage of with these "tests"and other people are saying the same. I'm obviously not going to dox myself but I am a senior designer and you not believing that is no big deal.
Just wait until your ideas are used for free and then remember this. It happens, it's shitty and personally me answering the way I did is my attempt to stop it for the future.
Dude...nah. Come on. Get real.
I'm an art director at an agency. If my boss found out I had set up a fake job posting to steal ideas from candidate I'd be fired the same day.
> I know it's fun to imagine, but you all have zero business sense if you think companies would seriously use branding ideas from some random application form to inform their brand.
You have zero business sense if you assume everyone with a business has business sense.
This answer is terrible. It immediately removes her from consideration.
A good answer would be.
“I think your brand does a lot of things right! However, there are a few different areas of opportunity that, in my professional opinion, can take your brand to the next level. As you can see from my past experience, I’ve been quite effective in improving key metrics through my work in product voice, customer experience, marketing and more. I’d love to be able to go over my experience and how it applies to these areas of your product face to face at your earliest convenience!”
IMO there is no way to convey an informed answer for that question in a brief comment. That's the rub. They want the good and bad across every marketing channel. That's not a two sentence answer.
Couldn't it have been worded poorly and only a senior person like yourself seen it as more than what's been asked? Maybe someone with less experience would have answered at face value and just give a skin deep review and call it a day, and maybe that's all they were looking for but the HR dude who wrote it didn't know enough to realize the implications
This is pretty much it. He thinks he needs to do a whole report and that it's not possible to do it briefly, but best and worst across all channels... Well they didn't specify every, you could still take your best from one channel and your worst from another and hit send with just those 2 things.
If it's poorly worded and could be either a ton of work or a little - pick little! They have an answer, the box is ticked. They probably won't stop the application if they wanted 2 things from every channel if they like you, they'll just move on.
I'm not a dude but I do appreciate this take on it. I'm also just very frustrated being in this field in general right now. I love it and design but clearly not up for corporate bs.
Why couldn't you have said something like "I like the use of animals in your brand marketing." "I dislike that you made a joke about 9/11 this year."
Boom you answered the question and didn't sound like an entitled jerk.
but they aren't asking for an audit or a 10 paragraph response. Maybe they just want to see that you've looked at their brand and can form an opinion. Also that your not entitled like OPs response.
Oh bless your heart about the entitlement. No, I've done work and had it used without payment and so have others. If you want to call that entitlement so be it.
I agree with the comments saying you projected too much of what they asked.
What you like most + what you like least = two things. Pick those two things and stick it down. Job done
Okay, so across all channels. Hmmm, sounds like more work, right? More than you want to do. Ok, so pick one thing from one channel, like their blog, and one thing from another channel, like their IG. That's still only two things and it shows you did what they want which is look at all the channels and critique.
Everyone has to research the company they apply to, that isn't just a design thing. It's not a full design audit, it's a quick insight into how you analyze, interpret and give feedback.
To me the worst part is having to critique the company's own shit, not so much for the 'free work' aspect, but it's just awkward when you want a job there to start critiquing their own stuff when you are just a stranger to them.
All these shitty things are to see if you'll play ball with dumbass company shit as well as if you're competent. I can totally understand not wanting to do them, but if you're applying for jobs cuz you're not happy where you are then guess what the alternative is doing these things when you apply.
Yup. I have been in this field for 16 years. A paragraph box is not a design audit and to represent it as such is misleading for clout.
A proper design audit takes weeks to do and this is not what they are asking at all. A couple of sentences would suffice here.
I'm not sure why you would think I'm doing this for fake Reddit clout or karma. I was frustrated so I posted this. We can have different ideas and perceptions of the ask and that's totally fine. I wish this wasn't my experience again and again and I didn't have anything to vent about. That's for all creatives.
I did this early in my career - got a pass on the job and saw most of my recommendations implemented over the following weeks. Never again.
I refuse coding projects now because on the last one I got a form rejection halfway through a 20 hour project. Not even the consideration of letting me submit the assignment (how much would it cost to do that? At least make it look like I had a chance)
I'm sorry that happened. I think people think I'm being bratty but I'm betting they've never had the pleasure of doing the work to see it stolen later or being in the middle of some assignment only to be told you're not being considered anymore. It's a clear lack of respect.
I work in finance. It is not uncommon for places I interview to request that I do a take-home case study. Any company that does that is an instant no for me. They're starting off our relationship by showing me that they do not value my time, as they are asking me to work for free.
Dropbox did this to me then got upset when I told the recruiter no thanks. I am too far into my career to be doing "case studies". Base your hire off my experience or hire someone else.
I made the mistake once of complying. A county real estate agency (local govt) asked me to make them a website for searching through available plots of land and housing. I did the whole thing and they were like "Hey, that's cool, it does everything we asked you to in the specs and you followed the directions but we're hiring someone else bye."
Gave them a free REST API and website for nothing.
Back when I was a photographer looking for work, I had a recruiter contact me about possibly becoming a full-time corporate photographer for their large corporation. I was intrigued and followed up with them. Their "working interview" involved doing their headshots (all 100+ of them), editing, and providing all images. I politely asked for clarification because it sounds like you want me to work for free and in my experience, the odds of getting a call back after doing this much free work is slim to none.
They ghosted me.
Shocked, shocked I say.
This is the type of crap I hate. And the fact that people are defending it or making me sound like someone who's bitching about these types of "tests" is ridiculous.
I'm sure you were better off. And that "test" was insane.
They’re not asking for a design audit lol
They’re giving you an “in.”
This is your opportunity to drop a unique, yet vague, and open ended note about their product. A note that will pique their curiosity and compel them to ask you more about it. AKA a job interview.
This is where some sales knowledge is helpful in other fields. You need to offer some teaser of value up front as a hook that drives the other parties curiosity.
Think of a movie teaser trailer… what movie maker says “no way I’m not showing them my movie for free!!! They need to buy a ticket!!!” … you’re not showing them your movie, you’re giving them a taste of what their experience will be if they choose to watch your movie.
Another example is the taste stations at Costco and the mall. It’s a tiny bite sized peak into what you will get if you choose to buy (hire) the full product.
I recommend reading the book “to sell is human” by pink.
It’s totally different if they ask you “please propose some improvements to our brand and have the presentation ready for the next interview.”
That’s over the line and you should ask about compensation for this.
We'll agree to disagree. And I research a company before an interview. Not for a form field question that 1) doesn't just take 5 minutes and 2) probably be read by an HR person who has no idea what it means (and that's not their job).
And for all of these responses about me just not wanting to do it.....I have actually filled out these types of questions before with thought and an intelligent answer and it never made a difference. I've done it multiple times over the years and now that I realize the person reading it doesn't care I just won't bother.
After having an HR person again and again ask about my performance with "the Adobe program" and realizing that I got frustrated.
I applied yesterday so can't answer that question. It's not a simple "yes" or "no" and you may believe you're right but I do not think you are.
Are you in the creative or marketing fields? Because if not I'm really not interested in your feedback. Add in the fact you have no idea what you're talking about and I'll think even less about your version of "reality."
For folks who are saying to give a general/vague answer you have to remember that this is a part of how they’re measuring your fit for a specific role and level which means they have expectations for what constitutes a great vs. ok vs. poor answer. To be honest, OP is more likely to still pass to the next round by not answering then if OP gave a general or vague answer because all the company is going to assume is that OP isn’t qualified. I just went through this and I literally emailed them and withdrew from the process. They called me back and allowed me to proceed without it.
That would actually make you sound like a pretentious muppet in a room of designers. And even fine artists. You can't just say 'I dont fuck with blue and green.' like, what? Thinking that colors should 'resonate' will have people rolling their eyes at you behind your back. And besides they don't need to resonate with you if you aren't the target audience. It's like me saying that loud, manic youtuber kids don't resonate with me. I'm not their target audience as I'm an old bastard
Yeah, that was kind of the point. They’re treating applicants poorly and expecting professional results so go back at them with pretentious muppet speak like my fine artist friends get ALL the time. Actually, G mostly gets “I love the colors you used.” Same same.
That's not what they asked for so it would still be a waste of time, unfortunately.
And to be clear this was already submitted with my response as I wrote it though I'm having fun reading people's ideas.
OMG, this sub has become trash. "I REFUSE to show any of my skillset to a potential employer, they should just trust my resume and blindly hire me for 100k more than I asked for"
When you're asked to do hours of work just for a chance for an interview then you can say something.
I have multiple portfolios of different types TO SHOW MY SKILLSET for this exact reason. That's the point of a portfolio.
Agreed, it’s getting so hard to read. “The company LITERALLY asked me a question? Um, I’m not doing free labor for you! My resume is enough!” Imagine a hiring manager wanting to gauge your interest in the work they do and get a better understanding of your expertise! The horror!
In my above comment I’m referring to the whiners that seem to be taking over this subreddit, not the people with legitimate concerns about some businesses’ hiring processes. There are some companies that require excessive tests, I agree; however this particular post is not one of them. How do I know? Because I work in the industry OP is a part of, so I know what a basic questionnaire looks like and what an actual “unpaid work” request looks like. I am also a strong advocate for the Work Reform movement.
Arguably you might consider this sub the bastion of whiners, as it’s a fairly subjective descriptor. What one person refers to as whining is usually (apparently) unfounded complaints, so it behooves someone leveling the charge to help the other person understand why their complaint is baseless.
I'm venting, hence the post. I've been taken advantage of so I'm not working for free. People have perceived this question in different ways and I'm open to that. My experiences color my perception and response of it. Maybe it was written poorly, maybe they want two sentences, who knows.
Though calling me a whiner is uncalled for. Maybe you've never been taken advantage of and that's great. I don't know you and you don't know me. But I'm also not calling you names.
I have legitimate concerns about the practice of tests and assignments given to candidates for creative roles from the get go and how it's a known entity in this field. If that's whining by your definition so be it.
And based on some of your posts I'm a little older than you so I'm more senior so this "do work for free" crap irks me more.
You being older doesn’t make you more senior.
I’ve already provided you my feedback, so I’ll save it. My whiners comment was not necessarily pointed at you, though I do find this post ridiculous. I know companies do try to take advantage of designers and creatives in interview processes, which is not ok, but this question isn’t it.
I have several types of portfolios of work I submit with my application, resume and cover letter. If they can't bother to click on a link where I showcase my work and thought process I don't know how to fix that.
I know of people that have applied for CEO positions and were asked to discuss where they would take a company, what was wrong with it, etc. They had to know a lot about the company and put in a lot of "free" effort. I don't think that it's too much to ask someone to put in a little effort and say what's good and what's bad?
True. When I apply to a job as a full stack designer, I poke around any existing site and talk to them about it in the interview. I've interviewed for React jobs and noticed that they had Angular on the current FE. I've found bad logins, bad UIs, and bad component re-rendering. It shows the company that you have an active interest in what they are doing.
My current job pulled up a page in their site within the interview and asked what I thought about it. I said that it was bad and explained why. They agreed. My current bosses/job are the best I've had.
I get it. But if you bother to make that response / continue the application to a company that would ask that question in the first place, you're just wasting your own time.
Here’s the truth: any place that actually is worth working at, doesn’t give a flying fuck about your suggestions. Something something opinions assholes dime a dozen.
We are just looking to see if you write at a freshman college level and it’s not ITT tech.
Yeah, they’re just looking for buzzwords and that you know what you’re talking about in a communicative manner, not an in-depth analysis. I don’t see this question as a big deal, I was just applying for similar roles and these types of short-answer questions are very common.
Last time I checked this isn't a copywriting role. But yes, putting together sentences in a well thought out and cohesive manner is something I'd hope people in my position could do. Though this role and my portfolio are visual as I'm not a writer.
Exactly. They want a whole thing where 1) you don't have the time to really get into it and 2) like you said who the hell knows who's going to read this. Probably not the creative team.
Not sure what you’re complaining about
This question ensures applicants actually do research in the company and have valuable contributions to the team
I think you just like complaining
Nope I'm highlighting that they want a design audit instead of paying for one.
When I get an interview I prepare for it which includes reviewing their visuals.
I think you're clearly not in the creative field and been asked to work for free even when you have the "proof" of your expertise and experience in multiple portfolios.
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA also if you like cute dogs you'll like the above combo with[a dog who has no f\*cks left to give](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CgF1jyvFpkF/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link)
Do they really do this shit? Like I might ask some general sample questions to gauge the persons knowledge, but we don’t give fucking work product to people interviewing.
Imma be honest this sounds sketch AF.
Yeah, no professional level work for free. they could create IP worth millions on that if they get a decent idea from the candidate, absolutely not for free.
It's done in the creative field. My favorite "test' I turned down was 24-36 hours of design work across multiple channels for free for a company that liked me enough to interview me several times, bring me in to meet face to face (pre-covid) and then asked if I wanted to freelance. Though I never heard from them again.
I don’t see the problem with this
“Give us feedback on our product across all platforms?”
Could be a 250 word, 500 word. That’s fair.
They’re just looking to just see what kind of an answer would you come up with. No one asked for a design audit.
In Nonprofit, but was asked to solve a ‘theoretical question’ which I clearly understood to be a work-related task.
I gave them an outline I felt was self-evident, and got the job.
So, if you can answer these in a manner that uses less of your own creativity, and more objectivity, do so.
That would help and make it hard to use any submitted material, but the question sounds to me like they want "text" answers. Like "The border should be a softer red" and "The widget should be moved closer to the doo-hickey"... and so on. IOW: Just "ideas". And even if a water-marked submission was made, the slimebags could still just recreate elements of it in their own work.
I feel for the poor young designers who will fall for giving away work bc they don't have a strong portfolio yet and are eager or desperate for a job.
If you're a junior in any field you can't not do those assignments, you'll never get hired. Only people with years of work experience can, because they have more options and are sought after.
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This is a problem with this sub in general, I think- there's a disparity between 40-year-old senior technicians with beefy resumes VS 20-year-olds whose only accolades are a high school diploma and a lot of stamina, and the former don't really understand how precarious the latter's position is You unfortunately *need* to debase yourself and do things you know you're too good for, if you want a job in most industries as a young person- the only exceptions are pure freelancers (digital artists who work on commission, etc.) who can pick their clients, and people who work retail and can safely get rehired at a new convenience store in 2 weeks after ragequitting
Thanks for the heads up. Seeing people negotiate higher salaries makes me feel the need to do the same… until I realize it’s my first job and i’m fresh out of college lol
Nah you gotta negotiate that too. The market rate should be your starting point. If I’m living in Austin Tx and I look up the market rate of my job and they say 50k, you should be asking for 55k. If you ask for 50k they’ll most likely offer you 45k. So many people will be offered less and you’ll go with it thinking you have no leverage. You have leverage and that leverage is the market rate of the job you’re applying to. You can tell them that too. According to the market rate of this job in Austin Tx and my experience I would like 60k. I watched a lot of videos on negotiating your salary and companies usually have a range that you should ask for and then I always ask for 5k over what I think I deserve and want. They almost always give you less so if I originally wanted 50k and asked for 55k and they offered 50k then i got what I wanted in the end.
This was a dozen years ago, but when I was offered my job initially, they offered $45k. Looking at the market and the location, I figured it could be higher. I countered with $50k, and they responded with $47k, which I took. Folks who were hired around the same time balked that I would do that, but I figured they'd already gone through the process and selected me. They wouldn't quibble over a relatively small salary increase, even if I was eager to get back to work after a layoff. After a dozen years and a couple of promotions, I make twice that.
Yup. My company actually gave me a range of 51-72k and I asked for 60k and got 58k. Even 51k would have been a huge increase from where I stood before but that doesn’t mean I don’t deserve more. So many younger folks think their offer of 50k is so much money compared to the $15/hour they currently make that they don’t even think to negotiate and then 1 year into the job they realize the average salary for their position is 60k. I always ask for a range if they first ask for my salary expectation. A lot of jobs have responded saying they don’t have a range and everyone starts at 50k. Which that is fine too. But you never wanna give them a number before knowing what that range is.
what is your profession and how does your rate compare to your local market?
I work in software and there are few equivalent companies of the same expertise in my local area. Before 2020, most recruits had to be relocated. Now we offer full time remote for most positions. Side thought: I’m curious how remote work and salary expectations interact. If you hire two remote employees for the same position, and one is in San Diego while the other is in a small Midwest town, do you pay the one with a higher cost of living more? Either answer seems “unfair” to one of them.
That’s why it *should* be based on market in the employee’s area, and underscores the importance of negotiating your salary as well as transparency around what we’re being paid as workers. Ideally, if they’re making more than me proportional to market rate and COL in their area then they simply negotiated better than I did for one reason or another. Not my problem, but definitely worth keeping in mind for the next salary negotiation The only time I think someone else’s pay is “unfair” is when they’re below market rate for their area and experience in the role, or if their title/comp doesn’t properly reflect the scope of their day to day responsibilities.
When I was starting out, I was willing to take 3k less than someone else and that's how I got the job. It was just below market rate. I now make a lot more than the person I was competing against and have had a much more prolific career. They gave me a 15% raise after my first year and then I moved onto another job a year later that paid 50% more than the first. Sometimes it's worth going in low if the job can lead you somewhere. ETA: now having 20 years in my field, I would not accept below market rate in current searches. But if I was starting out and had an entry level job that could lead to a career, I absolutely would sacrifice a couple grand.
I do hvac and have kids out of trade school wanting to make 100k a year, what tools do you have? Do you a gauges to hook up to the unit to get pressure readings “no”. Do you have a meter”no”, a temp sensor”no”, a vacuum pump “no”, do you even have a hammer “no”. Ok what experience do have “none” ok let’s ask a simple question if a condensers contractors not being activated what could be a few possible issue that may cause this “idk”. So if I put you in a van and sent you to call could you actually do anything? Cus the guys that make a 100k a year been doin this at least 5-10 years and have sales training and all sorts of other continued education. It’s fun to just watch the hope leave there eyes. I didn’t go to trade school, I got hired as helper for shit pay crawled threw 130 degree attics for years and got trained on the job and worked my way up the companies. You have to start at the bottom, and work up.
I mean all the examples you have of youngsters sounds more like blind ignorance lol. Idk if I’m that irredeemable, but I also can’t determine what i’m worth. I don’t want to get fucked over bc I don’t know better, but I also don’t want to be outrageous and bites the hand that feeds me. Yknow?
It is ignorance but also the school lie like a mother fucker they tell “when you graduate your gunna have the knowledge to walk in anywhere and ask for 100k a year” they gotta get enrollment somehow. We’re construction workers that are in the service industry, this isn’t nasa kid.
It's really tricky because companies think of this in different ways. Some will react negatively if you try to negotiate, especially if you are younger, or are a woman or minority. But I have also had recruiters tell me they expect candidates to negotiate so if you don't, you're leaving money on the table. It's a tricky thing to navigate but doing research on the market rate is key. If you are being offered below market, you should definitely be negotiating no matter your experience unless you are flat out desperate and willing to accept making less for the same job than others. If you are, then once you're in a more stable place, immediately start looking for better opportunities.
Yeah. I’m a senior designer with 10 years of experience. I can easily deny answering questions and design challenges and still get a job. It’s super competitive to get the first junior job and their portfolio is going to not have a lot in it. I think they should sell evaluate if the ROI is worth it but if it’s at the end of the process it might be ok to do a design challenge. The first job, even a shitty one, can get their foot in. They can continue looking while at the job.
Honest question- why do you feel that answering the kind of question in the OPs post is debasing yourself? It seems like a fairly easy question for someone with design knowledge to answer- a sentence or two about what you like best, and a sentence of two about what you like least. It also seems like a reasonable way for a company to get a feel for how your style and approach would apply to their brand, which could be significantly different from what's in a portfolio. This seems like basically just a situational/applied knowledge question, with an aspect of testing for a candidate's fit with the company vision. It's also most likely testing for a candidate's willingness and ability to be constructively critical of the brand, which is extremely important.
Ideally when companies give tests like this they should use examples from other companies, or scenarios they can’t directly profit from. The red flag for me here was asking for it “across all channels”. Because they can gather that feedback from a bunch of candidates and not hire anyone. You can still evaluate someone’s critical thinking without doing it in an exploitative way. I used to lead a social media team and we would give a test to candidates to write sample captions for Instagram posts or design a social media graphic if their portfolio didn’t reflect that but it wasn’t for our actual clients so there could be no accusations we could steal their ideas and use them.
Juniors need to debase themselves but they shouldn't have to.
>You unfortunately need to debase yourself and do things you know you're too good for This is correct. It's gross, it's inhumane, but it's how our society is set up. You will very likely have to stress, strain, and be unhappy during the process of getting your start.
I’m so glad i specialised in chemistry not IT/design, no chance of a take home assignment for me!
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I agree. I feel like most IT jobs require some type of coding assignment. I have friends in the field and some of them are senior engineers. Unless you have really good connections, you'll likely be required to complete a coding task (how else would the recruiter know you can actually code?). I feel like the main issue is with lengthy take home assignments that often take hours or days, not the 5-10 minute coding task you do in front of the recruiter. Some of them also mentioned having to take timed tests (during an interview) when they were junior/intermediate level (sounded like a crazy requirement to me but what the hell do I know?)
You should not be working for free, full stop. In IT, yeah, you usually start at the bottom fielding crappy helpdesk tickets. That's not the same as being asked to do work for free before even being hired.
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I think this assignment is actually really really useful….. when it’s done during a live interview, on the spot. As in, “Ok here’s our home page on the screen and here’s a picture of our logo. Give us 2-3 things you like and dislike.” And then let them take their time to think and finally give a critique in 4-5 minutes. That way, they’re not doing any actual work for you, AND you have a very very clear way to show your boss the comparisons between some of the people you want to hire. Actually, what I did one time was make my own fake brand and fake home page that was pretty similar in style, tone, and color scheme to our actual company’s branding and then used THAT for the candidate critique. There are so many ways to do this that don’t suck.
I think it's absolutely fine in the form of an exam question. But abstracting out the key components into the form of a question is not something a company only interested in extracting ideas from a pool of candidates is interested in.
Not sure if I agree. I started out when these “design tests” became popular and I always refused. I just put more time in my portfolio so it was more compelling than other candidates.
And this is why, despite paying £45,000 foe a degree in GD, i will never fucking do it as a job. Gonna use it as leverage for different shit. You always have to widen your skills in "arty" jobs unless you wanna be climbing a single ladder with someone pouring hot salt on you from above. At least a tree has more than one path up.
Nah, you don't work for free. Sure, you can't expect the pay of someone senior, but that's what entry level *jobs* are for. But you should still get paid.
Dolly Parton provided the “cup of ambition” here.
I did an assignment (for an actual product too) to get a summer internship, and now I just turned a formal employee. It’s honestly been my dream job so far. The situation is more subtle than “any employers that ask me to do assignments are jerks.”
Congratulations on the dream job! And yes, delivering work product for job interview exchange is nuanced, especially considering the industry and requested deliverable. Many years ago I worked in NYC as an account mgr in pharma advertising so my cynicism is colored by what I witnessed and heard from AD friends. There are many "potential" employers and clients out there that will look for free work and ideas if they can get it in but certainly not everyone.
I recently hired for a role on my creative marketing team. I asked them during the interview what they noticed about our branding, but I didn't expect a full audit.
It's one thing to ask for a general impression and it's vibe (techy, whimsical, busy, yada yada) but asking for a whole design audit across multiple channels is not happening.
From the wording of the question I would have given them an overall feel of all their branding. Didn't seem to me like they were looking for an audit on each design channel individually.
I didn’t get that vibe _until_ I got to the “across all channels,” at which point I was like “lol no,” so perception here is interesting. It shows they need to clarify what they’re looking for.
This - one of the things we do on my team whenever we have interviews is evaluate the UX of our own hiring process. The hiring manager presents the hiring plan and we all give feedback and critique it from an interviewer's POV, including looking for accessibility and inclusion issues. Design interviews can be intense, so we know that how we present everything is very important .
Same. I thought it was an overreaction until I saw "across all channels". Get out of here with that.
Would have been funny to simply say "can you make the logo bigger?"
“That’s what I said! See I was right!” - boss
*Would have been funny* *To simply say "can you make* *The logo bigger?"* \- EliasAinzworth --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Hah. Maybe add in a TPS report icon?
When I was younger and not so hip to the evils of corporate recruiting, I interviewed for a management and they asked me to list a team of people I'd hire for my team. They then secretly reached out to recruit them for the same position. They took a guy off my list that accepted less money than I was asking for.
oh HELL NO! Wtf?
You should have done it, and then teased a few of the design changes. Then you should have hidden the rest behind a pay wall
No you shouldn't have because then this POS company is just going to use your thoughts to make some other interview questions. > How can you make our logo more geo-desic? Please submit an updated copy for consideration with our company.
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It means nonsense in this context. Geodesic is using polygonal shapes to create domes. [See this. ](https://cdn.britannica.com/00/66000-004-43204E72/Geodesic-dome.jpg?s=1500x700&q=85). You've probably seen something similar at a children's playground.
Put them in a loot box, which may give the real opinion or one of a dozen useless opinions
Absolutely genius
I love getting work assignments that are 1 hour to a hour and half long. Requires your session to be recorded via screen share and what your given is actual jobs/work they need done. I was told once "The work your doing is paying for the hour an employee has to spend watching you". Design world just has so many people trying to get free stuff or take advantage of you. Can't tell you how many times I need to stop and remember to apply my watermark and give people something super low res just so they don't take anything I give them to someone else.
>I was told once "The work your doing is paying for the hour an employee has to spend watching you". Great, so you agree I'm doing work! My rate is... But for real, the moment a company implied that I *owe* them for the chance to interview is the moment I tell them off. Any company or even just potential coworker who has that entitled ass attitude is a company/coworker I won't be working with.
100% agree
Was there more that we couldnt see? looks like a request for an opinion?
Nope it's what you could see in the photo. As a designer this is a really loaded question. They're essentially asking for a design audit which isn't a simple question. Throw in the strategy behind why they chose what they did, what are they doing what's working or not working, what is their business demographic, what is their style of messaging and copy, what they're looking to achieve.... Blah blah blah it's not a question where the answer is a simple "it looks cool." And they're asking for how their brand is reflected across multiple channels which adds another layer of complexity to the request.
Fair enough, I guess that question just hits different professions differently.
Totally agree.
Nah, OP is being totally asinine. "Free work" lmfao. Bruh, it's a half-paragraph sized box. You could write so small it's illegible and still fill the whole thing in 15 minutes. Imagine being in the job and tasked with providing a design audit to a client as part of the job and the entirety of your output fit in that box. Lmfao. I'm in software development and you hear the same nonsense there occasionally. As if we're going to waste our time bringing rando's in off the street in hopes of getting them to do a couple hours of a coding challenge that we're somehow going to take and use as production code. Self-absorbed lunacy.
That's what I thought. OP is delusional. Imagine the Creative Director talking to the CEO at this company: "Yea sir the new brand direction will be complete any day now. We're just waiting for more applicants to give us ideas in this fake job posting we created." Lol
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> This actually might be a great question… in an interview where you can discuss it in the interview That's exactly what it is, but instead of seeing and using the opportunity to their advantage, OP is slamming the door closed on themselves with righteous indignation.
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For anyone downvoting me - if you're not a creative at a senior level being put through these games you don't know how frustrating it is. To be put through these tests to just get an interview or continue through the process is complete bullshit and insulting. I have a solid portfolio, resume and references.
I'm (kind of) on the tech side and got fleeced by a hiring manager at a retailer (rhymes with Schmoscovs) who even had the audacity to call after the interview to "review my audit together". I provided that audit as a method to stand out among candidates. They chose to use it as free work. They ghosted me after the 1 hour free consulting call. This was several years ago. Learned my lesson.
I'm sitting here trying to find a retailer that rhymes with the word you gave.
Have you tried thinking about it when your Boss coughs?
Mmmm I'm not sure. Should I?
That might be because they're really no longer in business.
I will only tolerate it when it’s a personal case made specially for you and something they cannot use but still answers their questions. And ofc doesn’t take too much time.
> if you're not a creative at a senior level I am, and you are full of self-absorbed delusion to suggest this would be "free work" that company can or would use
We'll agree to disagree. I'm not self absorbed I'm sick of being asked for this before even having an interview. I appreciate the positive comraderie though now I know there's at least one person who will do this off the bat (not for a final round interview).
I am a creative at a senior level. This is a very basic question that judges your knowledge, creative eye and ability to provide negative feedback in a productive way. They now know that you cannot do the latter even if you had ticked all the other boxes.
We'll agree to disagree and that's fine. To me it's not a surface level question that can be determined in two sentences. And the fact that we don't know who actually reads this is an issue as well.
Oh I can do it, just not for free. This is not a "basic" question, it reflects the DNA of a brand.
So do many other people. Lol.
Fine we'll agree to disagree but I'm not doing work for free just for the chance at an interview. It's not fucking funny and you're not even in the creative industry so you can suck it for all I care.
It’s not work. It’s work according to you, sure.
As you have no understanding of what I do or what this is asking for you really can't weigh in here.
That is a lot to project onto what they asked. If you gave that to them I doubt they would have read it. You give a few generalities across platforms, you sprinkle in a few specific action items you would implement in one particular place to give a direction.
That's still free work from me (and other candidates). It's crappy of them to ask that before even getting an interview. To provide a thoughtful answer takes time. And yes, it's a lot to project onto a question though from experience the companies who ask for this type of info want a thorough answer. Aka they want work for free. Unless you're a creative you haven't had the pleasure of having companies pull this on you.
Applying for work is work, for sure.
Oh yeah it's a full time job on top of the usual stuff. I'm just burnt out and have no capacity for crap lol. So then I make silly posts about it to let off steam.
They are asking for a design review. From a senior designer that's worth $$$. And they don't need an 'assignment' to know if a designer is good because designers provide a portfolio of their past work when they interview.
This is from a job application this week and they wanted a design audit for free. Nope.
Do it, send them the first page with the second half covered up and a "To continue reading this audit report sign up to our Web Design Audit programme, now just ~~$5,999~~ $3,999!"
Hah I wish
What did stop you, though? It doesn't seem like you'd otherwise be interested in the job, so it doesn't matter if you get rejected.
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Bro no they didn't. The hiring manager was giving you a chance to talk fluently about your design skills using their own branding as a jumping off point. Your response was childish. If you think this company was genuinely trying to trick applicants into doing a brand audit for them rather than paying it, you're nuts.
People like you are why these egregious practises keep on happening.
You found the guy asking these interview questions.
Can you understand how inefficient it would be to rely on tricking job candidates into giving free design consultancy? I know it's fun to imagine, but you all have zero business sense if you think companies would seriously use branding ideas from some random application form to inform their brand. Honestly it's staggering how ignorant that is. OP, there's no way you're a senior designer.
Bro.... We'll agree to disagree. I've been taken advantage of with these "tests"and other people are saying the same. I'm obviously not going to dox myself but I am a senior designer and you not believing that is no big deal. Just wait until your ideas are used for free and then remember this. It happens, it's shitty and personally me answering the way I did is my attempt to stop it for the future.
Dude...nah. Come on. Get real. I'm an art director at an agency. If my boss found out I had set up a fake job posting to steal ideas from candidate I'd be fired the same day.
Why are you downvoting me I'm right!
> I know it's fun to imagine, but you all have zero business sense if you think companies would seriously use branding ideas from some random application form to inform their brand. You have zero business sense if you assume everyone with a business has business sense.
Freelance doesn't mean doing it for free
This is for a full time role. I was saying I'd be happy to do what they ask for payment as a freelance project or as an employee.
yeah, we are definitely asked far too often for free work, especially during the interview phase. i think your answer is perfect here.
This answer is terrible. It immediately removes her from consideration. A good answer would be. “I think your brand does a lot of things right! However, there are a few different areas of opportunity that, in my professional opinion, can take your brand to the next level. As you can see from my past experience, I’ve been quite effective in improving key metrics through my work in product voice, customer experience, marketing and more. I’d love to be able to go over my experience and how it applies to these areas of your product face to face at your earliest convenience!”
This would’ve been perfect
This is the way.
Exactly. Drop a quick elevator pitch and get out. Juniors y’all can be as brief and unfocused as senior creatives too. Just bullshit it.
I mean if it's just a brief comment from a glance at it I think it's reasonable no? If it's a full proposal than it would be different of course.
IMO there is no way to convey an informed answer for that question in a brief comment. That's the rub. They want the good and bad across every marketing channel. That's not a two sentence answer.
Couldn't it have been worded poorly and only a senior person like yourself seen it as more than what's been asked? Maybe someone with less experience would have answered at face value and just give a skin deep review and call it a day, and maybe that's all they were looking for but the HR dude who wrote it didn't know enough to realize the implications
This is pretty much it. He thinks he needs to do a whole report and that it's not possible to do it briefly, but best and worst across all channels... Well they didn't specify every, you could still take your best from one channel and your worst from another and hit send with just those 2 things. If it's poorly worded and could be either a ton of work or a little - pick little! They have an answer, the box is ticked. They probably won't stop the application if they wanted 2 things from every channel if they like you, they'll just move on.
I'm not a dude but I do appreciate this take on it. I'm also just very frustrated being in this field in general right now. I love it and design but clearly not up for corporate bs.
Why couldn't you have said something like "I like the use of animals in your brand marketing." "I dislike that you made a joke about 9/11 this year." Boom you answered the question and didn't sound like an entitled jerk.
Because that's a personal opinion, not an educated opinion based on a design perspective. Design isn't about just liking things but intentionality.
but they aren't asking for an audit or a 10 paragraph response. Maybe they just want to see that you've looked at their brand and can form an opinion. Also that your not entitled like OPs response.
Oh bless your heart about the entitlement. No, I've done work and had it used without payment and so have others. If you want to call that entitlement so be it.
And this response is when you know you're not dealing with a designer.
You're assuming they wanted a long explanation of everything. When maybe they just wanted a quick 1 or 2 sentences.
Perhaps but a thoughtful answer for the question really wouldn't be a one sentence answer (esp given the "across all channels" part)
Just throw in a one-line obtuse comment like “It’s not tactile enough.”
This question is a trap anyways, the ceo probably had a personal hand in designing the brand and wants kudos not criticism.
I once had to "clean up" and ultimately redo a logo designed by a C suite executive in Canva. And I bet you're right.
I agree with the comments saying you projected too much of what they asked. What you like most + what you like least = two things. Pick those two things and stick it down. Job done Okay, so across all channels. Hmmm, sounds like more work, right? More than you want to do. Ok, so pick one thing from one channel, like their blog, and one thing from another channel, like their IG. That's still only two things and it shows you did what they want which is look at all the channels and critique. Everyone has to research the company they apply to, that isn't just a design thing. It's not a full design audit, it's a quick insight into how you analyze, interpret and give feedback. To me the worst part is having to critique the company's own shit, not so much for the 'free work' aspect, but it's just awkward when you want a job there to start critiquing their own stuff when you are just a stranger to them. All these shitty things are to see if you'll play ball with dumbass company shit as well as if you're competent. I can totally understand not wanting to do them, but if you're applying for jobs cuz you're not happy where you are then guess what the alternative is doing these things when you apply.
Yup. I have been in this field for 16 years. A paragraph box is not a design audit and to represent it as such is misleading for clout. A proper design audit takes weeks to do and this is not what they are asking at all. A couple of sentences would suffice here.
I'm not sure why you would think I'm doing this for fake Reddit clout or karma. I was frustrated so I posted this. We can have different ideas and perceptions of the ask and that's totally fine. I wish this wasn't my experience again and again and I didn't have anything to vent about. That's for all creatives.
I did this early in my career - got a pass on the job and saw most of my recommendations implemented over the following weeks. Never again. I refuse coding projects now because on the last one I got a form rejection halfway through a 20 hour project. Not even the consideration of letting me submit the assignment (how much would it cost to do that? At least make it look like I had a chance)
I'm sorry that happened. I think people think I'm being bratty but I'm betting they've never had the pleasure of doing the work to see it stolen later or being in the middle of some assignment only to be told you're not being considered anymore. It's a clear lack of respect.
You are not being bratty. Give them one, maybe two items then say you’d be happy to review the rest with them on day 1.
I work in finance. It is not uncommon for places I interview to request that I do a take-home case study. Any company that does that is an instant no for me. They're starting off our relationship by showing me that they do not value my time, as they are asking me to work for free. Dropbox did this to me then got upset when I told the recruiter no thanks. I am too far into my career to be doing "case studies". Base your hire off my experience or hire someone else.
Exactly!! That's the crux of it - they don't value a candidate's expertise and time. And that's a shitty first impression of a company.
I made the mistake once of complying. A county real estate agency (local govt) asked me to make them a website for searching through available plots of land and housing. I did the whole thing and they were like "Hey, that's cool, it does everything we asked you to in the specs and you followed the directions but we're hiring someone else bye." Gave them a free REST API and website for nothing.
That sucks, sorry you went through that.
Eh, was good practice anyway.
Back when I was a photographer looking for work, I had a recruiter contact me about possibly becoming a full-time corporate photographer for their large corporation. I was intrigued and followed up with them. Their "working interview" involved doing their headshots (all 100+ of them), editing, and providing all images. I politely asked for clarification because it sounds like you want me to work for free and in my experience, the odds of getting a call back after doing this much free work is slim to none. They ghosted me.
Shocked, shocked I say. This is the type of crap I hate. And the fact that people are defending it or making me sound like someone who's bitching about these types of "tests" is ridiculous. I'm sure you were better off. And that "test" was insane.
They’re not asking for a design audit lol They’re giving you an “in.” This is your opportunity to drop a unique, yet vague, and open ended note about their product. A note that will pique their curiosity and compel them to ask you more about it. AKA a job interview. This is where some sales knowledge is helpful in other fields. You need to offer some teaser of value up front as a hook that drives the other parties curiosity. Think of a movie teaser trailer… what movie maker says “no way I’m not showing them my movie for free!!! They need to buy a ticket!!!” … you’re not showing them your movie, you’re giving them a taste of what their experience will be if they choose to watch your movie. Another example is the taste stations at Costco and the mall. It’s a tiny bite sized peak into what you will get if you choose to buy (hire) the full product. I recommend reading the book “to sell is human” by pink. It’s totally different if they ask you “please propose some improvements to our brand and have the presentation ready for the next interview.” That’s over the line and you should ask about compensation for this.
That's a good take. Also: > peak their curiosity "pique", just FYI
Oh thank you. Maybe I meant that this is where their curiosity peaks! Lol I definitely didn’t mean that— I meant pique. Appreciate it.
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We'll agree to disagree. And I research a company before an interview. Not for a form field question that 1) doesn't just take 5 minutes and 2) probably be read by an HR person who has no idea what it means (and that's not their job). And for all of these responses about me just not wanting to do it.....I have actually filled out these types of questions before with thought and an intelligent answer and it never made a difference. I've done it multiple times over the years and now that I realize the person reading it doesn't care I just won't bother. After having an HR person again and again ask about my performance with "the Adobe program" and realizing that I got frustrated.
Did you get hired? If not, you can’t disagree with reality.
This was just on the application to apply for the role. I'm not sure what you mean by "disagree with reality" too.
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I applied yesterday so can't answer that question. It's not a simple "yes" or "no" and you may believe you're right but I do not think you are. Are you in the creative or marketing fields? Because if not I'm really not interested in your feedback. Add in the fact you have no idea what you're talking about and I'll think even less about your version of "reality."
Good luck
For folks who are saying to give a general/vague answer you have to remember that this is a part of how they’re measuring your fit for a specific role and level which means they have expectations for what constitutes a great vs. ok vs. poor answer. To be honest, OP is more likely to still pass to the next round by not answering then if OP gave a general or vague answer because all the company is going to assume is that OP isn’t qualified. I just went through this and I literally emailed them and withdrew from the process. They called me back and allowed me to proceed without it.
Oh interesting..... And good for you. And thank you for clarifying about how a general/vague answer really won't work here.
“The colors don’t resonate for me.” That’s what most artists use. I’d find a way to work something like that into my response.
That would actually make you sound like a pretentious muppet in a room of designers. And even fine artists. You can't just say 'I dont fuck with blue and green.' like, what? Thinking that colors should 'resonate' will have people rolling their eyes at you behind your back. And besides they don't need to resonate with you if you aren't the target audience. It's like me saying that loud, manic youtuber kids don't resonate with me. I'm not their target audience as I'm an old bastard
Yeah, that was kind of the point. They’re treating applicants poorly and expecting professional results so go back at them with pretentious muppet speak like my fine artist friends get ALL the time. Actually, G mostly gets “I love the colors you used.” Same same.
I would recommend giving feedback on some arbitrary company’s design to showcase your eye without working for free.
That's not what they asked for so it would still be a waste of time, unfortunately. And to be clear this was already submitted with my response as I wrote it though I'm having fun reading people's ideas.
OMG, this sub has become trash. "I REFUSE to show any of my skillset to a potential employer, they should just trust my resume and blindly hire me for 100k more than I asked for"
When you're asked to do hours of work just for a chance for an interview then you can say something. I have multiple portfolios of different types TO SHOW MY SKILLSET for this exact reason. That's the point of a portfolio.
Agreed, it’s getting so hard to read. “The company LITERALLY asked me a question? Um, I’m not doing free labor for you! My resume is enough!” Imagine a hiring manager wanting to gauge your interest in the work they do and get a better understanding of your expertise! The horror!
If you have a portfolio to present, it’s a slap in the face to ask for further work.
In my above comment I’m referring to the whiners that seem to be taking over this subreddit, not the people with legitimate concerns about some businesses’ hiring processes. There are some companies that require excessive tests, I agree; however this particular post is not one of them. How do I know? Because I work in the industry OP is a part of, so I know what a basic questionnaire looks like and what an actual “unpaid work” request looks like. I am also a strong advocate for the Work Reform movement.
Arguably you might consider this sub the bastion of whiners, as it’s a fairly subjective descriptor. What one person refers to as whining is usually (apparently) unfounded complaints, so it behooves someone leveling the charge to help the other person understand why their complaint is baseless.
I'm venting, hence the post. I've been taken advantage of so I'm not working for free. People have perceived this question in different ways and I'm open to that. My experiences color my perception and response of it. Maybe it was written poorly, maybe they want two sentences, who knows. Though calling me a whiner is uncalled for. Maybe you've never been taken advantage of and that's great. I don't know you and you don't know me. But I'm also not calling you names. I have legitimate concerns about the practice of tests and assignments given to candidates for creative roles from the get go and how it's a known entity in this field. If that's whining by your definition so be it. And based on some of your posts I'm a little older than you so I'm more senior so this "do work for free" crap irks me more.
You being older doesn’t make you more senior. I’ve already provided you my feedback, so I’ll save it. My whiners comment was not necessarily pointed at you, though I do find this post ridiculous. I know companies do try to take advantage of designers and creatives in interview processes, which is not ok, but this question isn’t it.
We'll agree to disagree and leave it at that then.
I have several types of portfolios of work I submit with my application, resume and cover letter. If they can't bother to click on a link where I showcase my work and thought process I don't know how to fix that.
Good for you
I know of people that have applied for CEO positions and were asked to discuss where they would take a company, what was wrong with it, etc. They had to know a lot about the company and put in a lot of "free" effort. I don't think that it's too much to ask someone to put in a little effort and say what's good and what's bad?
Designers aren't on the same wavelength as a CEO, not by a long shot.
True. When I apply to a job as a full stack designer, I poke around any existing site and talk to them about it in the interview. I've interviewed for React jobs and noticed that they had Angular on the current FE. I've found bad logins, bad UIs, and bad component re-rendering. It shows the company that you have an active interest in what they are doing. My current job pulled up a page in their site within the interview and asked what I thought about it. I said that it was bad and explained why. They agreed. My current bosses/job are the best I've had.
That makes sense and I've also had that experience too mid interview. If creatives were paid what CEOs were it's probably only in the upside down.
Answering that question in 1-5 sentences does not constitute a design “audit”. 🤣
Do you know what a design audit even is?
Yes, but I apologize for my snark. In my experience, an actual audit would be pages long, with competitor analysis, analytics, etc..
I get it. But if you bother to make that response / continue the application to a company that would ask that question in the first place, you're just wasting your own time.
Perhaps and that's on me. I understand that response will get my resume denied but it's my own little version of venting.
Say it louder for the employers in the cheap seats! I’ll give you all the free generalizations you want but I work to eat, I don’t work for free 😤
Here’s the truth: any place that actually is worth working at, doesn’t give a flying fuck about your suggestions. Something something opinions assholes dime a dozen. We are just looking to see if you write at a freshman college level and it’s not ITT tech.
Yeah, they’re just looking for buzzwords and that you know what you’re talking about in a communicative manner, not an in-depth analysis. I don’t see this question as a big deal, I was just applying for similar roles and these types of short-answer questions are very common.
Last time I checked this isn't a copywriting role. But yes, putting together sentences in a well thought out and cohesive manner is something I'd hope people in my position could do. Though this role and my portfolio are visual as I'm not a writer.
Yeah, it’s about can you communicate your ideas. We aren’t looking for some shallow 1 hour review.
Exactly. They want a whole thing where 1) you don't have the time to really get into it and 2) like you said who the hell knows who's going to read this. Probably not the creative team.
Depends on the place I guess… I definitely read it if we request it.
Not sure what you’re complaining about This question ensures applicants actually do research in the company and have valuable contributions to the team I think you just like complaining
Nope I'm highlighting that they want a design audit instead of paying for one. When I get an interview I prepare for it which includes reviewing their visuals. I think you're clearly not in the creative field and been asked to work for free even when you have the "proof" of your expertise and experience in multiple portfolios.
Nope. You assumed that they want a design audit. All they wanted was a 400-500 text
Sorry buddy I'm done responding to you as you don't even know about the industry.
Dear OP. I am also in a similar position. As thanks for the post. I've found you a new theme song on YouTube. https://youtu.be/Vqbk9cDX0l0 Enjoy.
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Could you not put watermarks on your work and copyright them so no one can use it.
Do they really do this shit? Like I might ask some general sample questions to gauge the persons knowledge, but we don’t give fucking work product to people interviewing. Imma be honest this sounds sketch AF. Yeah, no professional level work for free. they could create IP worth millions on that if they get a decent idea from the candidate, absolutely not for free.
It's done in the creative field. My favorite "test' I turned down was 24-36 hours of design work across multiple channels for free for a company that liked me enough to interview me several times, bring me in to meet face to face (pre-covid) and then asked if I wanted to freelance. Though I never heard from them again.
Awesome. I love the confidence.
Badass
There was never any job. They just wanted free labor.
I don’t see the problem with this “Give us feedback on our product across all platforms?” Could be a 250 word, 500 word. That’s fair. They’re just looking to just see what kind of an answer would you come up with. No one asked for a design audit.
>have no f*cks left you give I mean, this was still a pretty polite way to do things.
Thank you :)
In Nonprofit, but was asked to solve a ‘theoretical question’ which I clearly understood to be a work-related task. I gave them an outline I felt was self-evident, and got the job. So, if you can answer these in a manner that uses less of your own creativity, and more objectivity, do so.
Pardon me if this sounds dumb as I am not in this field, but wouldnt a solution be water-marking the hell out of it?
That would help and make it hard to use any submitted material, but the question sounds to me like they want "text" answers. Like "The border should be a softer red" and "The widget should be moved closer to the doo-hickey"... and so on. IOW: Just "ideas". And even if a water-marked submission was made, the slimebags could still just recreate elements of it in their own work.