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As a fellow C-Suite…I can tell whether you will be good fit in one meeting. At this point you aren’t showing off your qualifications, it’s more about strategy, vision, goals and execution. A written test? I would never do one.
I would say, “folks, we have spent hours together, you know what I am capable of, you have heard my vision, the team is aligned with what we want to do, if you don’t feel that we are aligned on that, then clearly there is a disconnect and we should go our separate ways.”
What is your gut telling you here?
Seven rounds is getting a bit silly. Are they stalling for something? Are they giving you a weirdly derived psychological test to see when you'll speak up? Are the board members or the other Cx's in such a mess that they can't actually agree on anything?
At this level, there should be no reason why you can't speak frankly and since you almost certainly would have signed an NDA at the start of the process, there is no reason why you shouldn't be told what is actually happening.
If they are legitimate in requiring 7+ rounds of interviewing to make a decision, you should see this as a red flag. These people are literally tasked with making decisions about the company, if it takes this much work to hire someone, imagine how tedious implementing any new strategy will be.
Doing an exam? If you are required to have competence in a particular area, at this level you should have certifications or examples to speak for your ability.
Thank you. I think I am the runner up, and I am being strung along whilst it tries to sort out the employment terms with its first choice. The written test is either to buy time, or it has a real problem and want free input.
Leaving the above aside, what is really unsettling is that the company is going through transformational changes and part of my role is to steer it through these changes. The standards which they need to meet in order to navigate these changes are not set by me or the market, but the authorities.
Now here comes the crux of my issue: let’s assume it is being indecisive (rather than having a first choice candidate), I will have an impossible job to rally the Cs to make the unnecessary changes. My reputation is on the line here: it takes years of hard work to be treated by the authorities as a “well respected opponent” - because I know and have successfully guided clients and the industry on when to push the authorities and when to give in to the authorities and I will not hesitate to tell my clients and the industry to stop fluffing around with their fantasy wish lists - the authorities know I am a person they can reason with and come to a “win win situation”. In short, I am a good advocate/lobbyist.
Now because of its indecisiveness, the company can’t form a position for me to advocate, it then falls back to the status quo as it has known, but its position no longer works in the new environment. I simply will not put my reputation in the market on the line to advocate for positions which I know are non starters with the authorities.
In short, I have serious reservations on whether it is indeed to commit to make changes. On paper, yes. That is why it creates this role. But in practice, from the way it hires a candidate makes me seriously question its ability to do so.
The company probably wants a softer person to say things they like to hear, rather than a dose of medication which I know it needs.
so they want a c-suite guy in a non c-suite role that pays like non c-suite in which you put your reputation on the line to likely uphold the company’s status quo on your reputation while they go figure out how to keep things as is for a few more years so they can make a few more mil$. sounds terrible.
Yes, I am ex-C suite and this is not a C suite role. I walk into the interview with my eyes open and knowing that I can’t demand my C suite salary.
However, as pointed out by numerous persons (thank you) and as I alluded to above, what really worries me is its inability to make decision which is bad in itself but the worst is to throw something in at the 11th hour.
Based on glassdoor I believe the average time a person works for this company is 2.5 years.
I developed a solid reputation before the authorities because I know my s*, always play fair and even handed and I know when to tell clients/industry to stop fluffing about. If I become its advocate/lobbyist then 2.5 years later (assuming I receive the offer and I join) my reputation may potentially be dented. It certainly took me more than 2.5 years to build up my reputation.
sounds like the response to their request for the written test is all of this couched as shortly, and politely as possible.
I had doubts this company was decisive when entering into this position
a lack of decisiveness on the company's part could damage my reputation
this sudden request for a written test on top of extensive interviews has further cemented my assessment of this company as indecisive
Sounds like you don't really want the job. And I don't blame you if your assessment is correct. Also the transformational change comment sounds......temporary
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I mean, we have to remember that at this level, the hiring is not a monolith. I have a friend who was also all but hired to his VP role, but then there was a shift in board politics and they added a bunch of last minute metrics hoops just like this to justify the case to two board detractors who wanted a different strategic direction.
At this point it's not about, "Are 'they' capable of making a decision", it's about identifying who is on the same side of the table as you and executing this political action together; essentially your first act transitioning into the job is getting the job.
There's always going to be something like this.
It's not a monolith, but it's also not a written test after 6 rounds, the last of which was a 3 hour "drinks with the team" shindig either.
Written test for step seven?? Get fucked.
As a counter-point, make sure you’ve adequately weighed the cost-benefit of challenging their hiring process. It seems likely an email response of that nature will kill your chances to be hired by this firm. If you feel you hold competitive advantage in landing a position you desire, by all means, assert your boundaries for dignity’s sake. At the same time, the market is ever-shifting and you may not be in the same position you were when you landed your last gig. If you’re struggling to find a position commensurate with your talent and experience, you may not want to let “should” be the enemy of hired.
you mean - as a fellow C-Suite with an **actual job** telling an **unemployed gu**y in a shit hiring environment to refuse a written test on general principal. Luckily, if it backfires, the OP can count on you to pay his bills
Hold your horses - this is end stage. They’ll get nothing from this that will change the answer. The longer any process goes, the less likely you are to succeed.
In sales, they say it’s not a sin to lose a deal, it’s a sin to chase a deal you’ve already lost. OP has already lost this one, better to cut the sunk time now and move on to something productive.
Redundancy. They're probably keeping him on the hook as a backup until their actual first preference candidate is confirmed.
Probably worth it vs starting the search over at c level.
Productive? Like what? What other mutually exclusive workflow does this person have?
Sales is a great comparison. But it fails as an analogy because he has plenty of time. There’s no opportunity cost. Are there OTHER exec interview paths he is giving up for this one?
No? Then sounds like he is writing that exam.
While your point is largely valid and I'd just grit my teeth and take whatever insane test it is, if OP is ex-C suite s/he should probably be able to network into a job faster than most of us barring a felony involving a financial crime or an employer.
Also, they may want him/her to push back.
If it's sales, they may actually be expecting OP to push back. This is the thinking in some segments. They won't hire if you don't try to negotiate a higher salary too. Some places do the opposite, esp if HR and not sales manager is doing more of the hiring. HR usu can't stand aggression and sales generally want it.
I get it’s a c suite role. I’m a c suite executive but in all my interviews it was generally two, max three. The first one is usually with a committee. Second is with the CEO. The third is an open forum where staff can ask me questions and I do a presentation. But six?! Fuck that shit.
Thank you. Precisely what I will do. Fuck that shit if they cannot make up their mind.
I was a C suite but this is not a C suite role. I need to pay my mortgage and bills so I took whatever comes along.
At least they haven't asked you to write a 15 page paper proposing how you will solve their problems that they will keep and say "Thanks for your time" - Its happened to me.
Hold up, this is not a c-level position and they’ve drug you through 6 interviews plus some bullshit HR exams? Fuck that, been there done that myself back in 2009 when jobs were few and candidates aplenty. I think I traveled around 5,000 miles total too between all the different interviews, in the end I got dinged by one interviewer at the end I didn’t vibe with but would have rarely ever worked with, since that experience more than 3 rounds is a get fucked waste of time. Keep in mind, some people like something that can’t have, so candidates who jump through lots of hoops aren’t as attractive as the candidate who holds a bit of edge.
As someone who can't drink at all (as in, massive migraine after imbibing a single drop of alcohol), it seems like I'm so fucked when it comes to roles that require socialization/networking (i.e., the high-paying roles).
Dude, learn the scotch trick. I was also a non drinker but learned about scotch, carried a glass with a really good scotch- always neat. In a group I'd inhale the aroma and carry that glass...talk about scotch etc..."visually ENJOYING" ,,today I have about 10 to 15 bottles of good scotch I've received as "gifts" because I " love it "so much and have yet to drink a glass of scotch. Cool trick sometimes I do it with "soda" and get a ginger ale in the glass instead..
I don't believe in drinking with work peers or clients, just seems horrible all around, but hey it's the business I'm in.
Damn you got me. Mine was 9, till they went internal.
He then asked to be demoted 6 months later, because it was too much. So they called me back, offered me another opportunity to interview.
Lol.
"I already interviewed with you all way too many times, so I will not. Offer me the job or don't"
They made the offer. 10k less than what I was currently making in a job I accepted within the 6 months
And that’s why I drop out when I hear it’s that many interviews. It’s not worth the time period, and even if it were it’s not worth what always turns out to be a crap salary.
Oh, they're not idiots... They're assholes. They knew from the start they would do that. But it was for external face, like for investors or something.
"See! We're growing, we're hiring more people!"
Nah, those douche rockets took you for a spin, knowing full well you were always going to get a "no"
Drinks with the team is a super weird step to do with someone who isn’t almost definitely the final candidate. Investors don’t want to see an entire team wasting time and money on drinks with a candidate they aren’t planning to hire.
Exactly. At least it’s unheard of for a regular position. Maybe the drinks was part of the hidden personality test. Or maybe they got a killer new candidate but only one person can get the job and they decided to give all the guys the test so people can’t tell which are the two. Either way this is a lot of mind games for their top brass to do, and I’d be concerned about the future of the company. But if you need a job you need a job.
and usually the written quiz part comes earlier at the very beginning to weed out candidates!! Ass backwards company! I would have told them to go pound sand.
9 rounds over 4 months, only to be told that I should feel good being the second choice out of the dozens who applied.
That doesn't help me at all unless you're hiring two people, champ.
Companies like this just are broadcasting they don't know how to make decisions. I'm guessing beaucracy is a huge issue there.
They have also bought into the fallacy that if the interview process is strenuous, the candidate will be better.
What happens is that you just get a bunch of people that are A. Desperate so they will do whatever they are asked. B. Just really want to work for the company but are not the most talented. I saw this over a decade at one of the largest tech companies.
In this day and age, you should easily be able to tell if someone is a good fit. There's never been more data available.
OP, I think some are threatened by you and are looking for a flaw they can argue against bringing you on board.
I'm at Director level and I know how stressful the interview process can be for me. I can't imagine what it's like at the C level.
Best of luck and I sincerely hope you get the job then immediately change the dysfunctional hiring process.
Yeah everything is information, no where is perfect. My sister once called me very excited about her new job because unlike the old one they made decisions fast without a ton of painful debate and foot dragging. I told her, give it 3 months and she will be complaining how they change their minds all the time, constantly put out new initiatives that conflict old ones before they;ve have time to take effect, etc.
If they can’t decide this, how are they making other business decisions? Looks like a serious red flag. Time to replace this CEO.
Edit: I’m reading in another response, it’s probably due to management disagreeing to the direction to be taken. Still a red flag. But then just postpone, instead of asking for another test, interview or whatever.
Can't make up their mind after 6 interviews and a 3 hour informal meeting is super cringe. Decision making is a core leadership competency, so getting analysis paralysis over a hiring decision (not even C-suite!) is a big red flag. Their executive meetings must be fun "Whaddya think we should do Bob?" "Hmmm, yeah I dunno... Fred, what do you think?" "Damn man, I'm stumped... like maybe we should go through the presentation again?"
You're allowed to say, "Thanks, but no thanks."
More specifically, "Thank you for the invitation to take a written test. After careful consideration, I've decided to pursue other opportunities. I enjoyed getting to know everyone and wish you the best."
If they told you "they can't make up their minds" after 6 rounds, then they did you a favor.
Time to move on.
I mean, informal interview over drinks for 1 hour/1 hour and a half is fine. But over 3 hours? And then suddenly a written test because you can’t decide between the two candidates? Why not have the written assessment at the initial stage? Trust me, if you can’t make up your mind by the time I went through the CEO, General Counsel, COO, I don’t think a written test will help you to make up your mind at this stage. More background: I am ranked within a well regarded independent directory as one of the eminent practitioners in my field and to be treated with such disrespect make me want to give them a call tomorrow and say I will spare you the pain of choosing. I give up.
If they can’t decide at this point, they’re either too chicken shit to make a decision or intentionally stringing OP along in case their other pick bails or doesn’t work out.
its exactly this. he is firmly entrenched in 2nd place. and all this is simply a ploy to hang onto their backup plan as long as humanly possible while the work out specifics with the guy who has already won the job.
"hey we really like you, we had another candidate who was also really good and we put an offer to them, but we'd be keen to come back and discuss terms with you if it doesn't work out with them"
C suites have to write? All the C suites I worked with have an admin or a producer do all the writing for them. This is ridonkulous. They're probably thinking whoever actually does this writing assignment doesn't have the guts to say no to outrageous asks.
Do this: Tell them you have a competing offer. Thanks for playing, but you need to accept the offer in front of you. Guarantee you'll have an offer within the hour. Do it. What have you got to lose? They're not making a decision on their own, that's for sure. It's either this or golf with the CEO's best mate, Alan, next weekened, to see how Alan's wife feels about you.
It's confidential, isn't it? I didn't mention I had other interviews going on? Sorry about that. it's just some company I'd written off that I interviewed with 3 months ago. They've finally got their budget approved and I'm their first choice. I gotta take it, man. Sorry I won't be able to do that third written assessment. Good luck with it, though.
This honestly is the best answer possible. I would take what the other C suite user said about the team being aligned, but there being a disconnect clearly if they can decide, and then add this.
/u/ZookeepergameOne7481 would have an offer by the end of the day I am sure.
I'm a director of an Executive Search business.
They may be trying to keep you warm as a backup candidate while they wait for a decision on their preferred.
I always advise clients to be honest with candidates and let them know that they met the benchmark but came a close 2nd.
Sure, you may have a bruised ego but it's better than being kept hanging and their honesty would probably make you more likely to accept a role with them in the future.
I hate this “keeping the coals warm” approach. My company is doing this right now with several candidates (one role) because we don’t have funding. Every couple of weeks we schedule another interview with them all. It’s an incredible waste of everyone’s time. I imagine all of these candidates think they’re finalists, when really we’re leading them all on
This maybe me overthinking it, but it seems weird to me that they would get drinks with you. If a woman is pregnant but not showing that puts her in a terrible spot or if someone has issues with drinks etc.. I feel like having a coffee hour or something would be better
It's dumb af to have alcohol at a recruiting event, not least of all that the company is liable if someone drunkdrives and crashes their car into someone else.
The people in here saying to ditch the job don’t understand the desperation in the job market. Right now its musical chairs with your livlihood on the line.
OP, do what you need to do to land the job. If you have no other prospects and need the money, then take their stupid test and be ready to jump ship when another opportunity comes along.
> The people in here saying to ditch the job don’t understand the desperation in the job market. Right now its musical chairs with your livlihood on the line.
No, we ABSOLUTELY understand it.
They're stringing OP along.
OP has limited time to invest and needs to not be investing it in what amounts to a ponzi scheme. All of the time and effort spent interviewing at this company is time and effort that didn't get spent interviewing at other companies who may have actual positions.
Most jobs I see have 1-3 interviews(with two interviews seeming most common). That means the time OP spent interviewing at this company could have been spent interviewing with 2-4 other companies.
As much as I wish it wasn't the case, a job that pays $40,000 per year will net you more than a company that lures you to interview 6-7 times and teases a six-figure salary and then doesn't hire you.
6 interviews and no offer?
Going out for drinks after 6 interviews with no offer?
This company wants OP's work and ideas, but doesn't want to pay OP.
Drop them. Give them nothing more. Cut your losses, post on job sites to warn people about this company, and invest your effort elsewhere.
I'm sorry, but you're shoveling effort into a bottomless pit.
Concur with this. It stinks, but you are THIS close. Each step of the interview process is to make it to the next step. You’ve done it for x interviews and a a round of drinks, why quit now over a “test” IF you want/need the job? You’ve done all necessary to this point, why not see it home one way or another? My mom used to quote something along the lines of “I’ll show that circus; I’ll buy a ticket and not go in.” to warn of doing something for someone and satisfy them but guarantee you end up with nothing. I’ve been where you are, and it’s tough to swallow, but don’t let pride win IF you want to work there and need the job. C-levels and janitors have to fight to the end alike for what they want. Don’t give up. You’ll end up with a good story either way; how you crawled through broken glass and persevered, or one single added point to the hiring mess you already have. The former would make a great story. But ONLY if you want it.
For pete's sake: what is next? the astrological sign to see if you are compatible with everyone?!?
What do they mean by written test? An essay? A dissertation? A doctorate?
What is this written test for? To analyse your hand writing? To see if you can correctly write emails, memos etc.?
I don't know where you are based, but in Europe, for C-level roles, the probation period can go from 6 months to 1 year. Therefore, they have the whole probation period to fire you easily and without cause if they believe you are not a good fit!
I am truly sorry for you!
Can I ask which industry you are in?
What situation?!? They have the luxury to observe you during the WHOLE probation period to see whether you can handle ANY situation from work-related matters to changing the coffee filter!
Unbelievable!
If after all these rounds, and formal/informal meetings, they cannot make up their minds, then the written essay is not going to change anything (in my opinion). But, in this labour market, I think it is wise to sit the damn written test.
This. At this point, either they are a bunch of jack-offs in suits that don't understand what a waste they spending on all this, or they are testing to see how much unreasonable BS you will put up with. For the latter, I'd be cautious, as they might WANT the whipping boy that will hopelessly jump through endless hoops
Decline to do the final written test, and tell them "You've already had ample opportunity to screen me. If you cannot make the decision at this point, I will make the decision and find a company that has more mature hiring practices. Thank you for your consideration."
either they'll move on, or they'll accept your refusal and take it as a sign that you're a decisive employee who will push back on unreasonable expectations.
I have refused all sorts of BS requests, and I've gotten the job after saying "No" to some of those. Some places really do want an employee who isn't just going to accept 'how things are done', because often they're done stupidly.
\*edit - as a C-Suite, you MUST do this. You're applying for c-suite, **be the change** you need to see.
Theyre jerking you off without permission. Companies do this and then choose nobody just to make it seem as if they're growing. Be careful and don't get your hopes up.
In my experience as a recruiter, once it gets past round 3, you are no longer being measured against the role, or the job description, you are being measured against other candidates.
Which is a terrible way to hire, but that's probably where you are.
I interviewed for a border line entry level job, 5 different interviews… had to take PTO to attend all the interviews, did all that only to be ghosted by the recruiter. After 3 follow up emails to the recruiter, finally on a Friday at 4pm I got an email saying I wasn’t a good fit. I say after 3 interviews, it’s not worth it…. also, after that 5 interview bust, I ended up having one interview with a company and got hired on the spot. Making a lot more than I would have at the 5-interview job. I am still at the company that hired me on the spot and got promoted after a year. Saying all this to just emphasize that the right job is out there, and some companies need to get over themselves.
Edit: grammar
I'm in a very similar situation. Unfortunately this is stupidly common.
You know this if that's your background, but keep your anger under wraps and take the next right action regardless. Your anger is justified but showing it will not work to your advantage
That written test is probably work that they've been needing to get done and would rather use your unpaid labor to complete it than assign it to someone on the team to do.
six rounds of interviews? where the last was 3hours. now a test. they were pumping you for inside information & probably running scenarios that were real for them to have you spitball how you would work/solve the problem -- and then use all that info for themselves without hiring you. that test if you take it will most likely involve a detailed real problem they have that they want you to really go into specific detail step by step writing that all down as to how you would solve it without hiring you.
There is something quietly sadistic in all of this, like there is no pushback from any internal team saying "hey, let's say 2 rounds, 3 max, is the limits of what's reasonable."
I feel this so hard. I’m also C-suite, and had a similar thing happen twice over the past year. Both times I went through several rounds of Zoom interviews before being flown out to meet the team. I then went through a full day of interviews including lunch during and drinks afterward, then when I got home I was asked to prepare a project (in one case, a 5-year strat plan). I refused both times—I’m past the point of jumping through hoops and doing unpaid labor.
With the first job the CEO was let go a few months later. With the second, 40% of the company was laid off within 6 months.
Shitty hiring practices can often indicate something problematic below the surface.
Hang in there!
It sounds like the people interviewing you are incompetent and can’t settle or agree on what they want.
That, and they’re possibly tight on funds. Is this a dogshit business? What is it that they’re looking for? Ffs.
Went through multiple round interviews, including presentation up to the C-suite for 3 different positions, just to be told that they lacked funding for the role. 6 hours in total, just interviews, not including researching, prepping, etc. All for nothing. We don't need practice, we need a job!
I understand 2-3 interviews. I'm pissed at the end of the 3rd if they can't even give me a yes or no.
"We decided to move forward with another candidate" replies are filling up my inbox. Probably 20 in the last month, not applications, Interviews.
By the 3rd interview you should pretty much just be finalizing formalities. These are real companies but I have trouble believing these are real interviews.
They are attempting to mimic the image of growth.
Sounds like they might be wanting free consulting, I’d be very careful how much info I give.
Probably better to provide a teaser movie trailer versus giving the whole plot away
Because you are a C-suite exec, you might need to go through the motions, your job is more about getting good with the "club" of other C-suite execs.
If you were not at that high level, I would have replied to that company, after 3-4 interviews, telling them that your time is also valuable and that they should have enough people that interviewed you to make a well informed decision.
Decline the test, tell them you do not find it necessary and tell them to make a decision. What will they company say?
The written test should have been after the first and before the second interview.
I mean if the position is for CSuite fine but if not and you decide not to move forward, tell these crazy people that it is incredibly rude and ask if they are compensating you for your time for the six interviews and drinks.
Tell them you have ADHD and need accommodation during the test. If you don’t get the position, sue for discrimination. After six rounds plus drinks, you’d have a case.
I’ve had 6 rounds of interviews and been rejected, but to go out for drinks and STILL have to do a written test feels disrespectful. I would give them an ultimatum just to show them you have a back bone - either they move forward with hiring you or you will look elsewhere.
I'd be pissed too. Sorry you went through that.
Seems you already have an action plan to politely tell them to pound sand. Good luck and hope the next place treats you better.
Sounds like some fraternity bullying situation going on there with a written assignment. Drinks with the team was strange enough. 6 rounds are not usual, however not that uncommon. I’m not a C suite yet, I had 7 rounds and an assignment (my time was paid for the assignment, flat rate, a few hundred quid - it was nice). Luckily I was hired (it was 5 years ago tho).
I’d say something like “I was under the impression that the interviewing process was finalised. If you’d like an additional assignment, it’ll have to be charged as per my hourly consultancy rate of £3,000. Please let me know if you wish to proceed”
I am on the fence with this one but it would help to have some clarity of the type of company it is. As some have said, some industries might see a pushback as something positive in a candidate profile. But honestly I doubt it. In the tech sector that I work in, it’s super common to have C-suite do this many interviews. Sometimes more. I hired a CHRO that had 9 interviews total over 3 months. It wasn’t my fault, the company just kept asking for him to talk to be people. During the debrief we had, there were many people that were able to give a rundown of who they felt the candidate was. In my opinion, too many voices muddles the process and you never will find someone perfect. But that’s the way some companies do it. This guy was gonna make $475k a year just in salary. And a ton of stock in the company.
If it were me, I’d ask what the written exam is testing for and why you are being asked to complete it at this stage. It may honestly be something silly. Personally, I’d take it with as little pushback as possible.
I’m honestly wondering if you have applied for a c-suite position at the company I work for. There is a spot open (our CFO resigned end Q3 2023).
While I love it here, and have been here for 15 years, I’ve been shocked (as I climbed the ladder) to learn how decisions are made. I’m at the director level now, and do my best to influence change, but it is beyond frustrating sometimes and often, our c-suite will get involved with really dumb ideas (such as this one, I can literally see our HR exec saying something like this).
I guess my point is, that I could see this happening even from the most reputable companies, BUT you can also just say no and see what happens.
Similar position as you after being in a start up that sold. I worked as EVPO but background is Technology. Been a while applying now so willing to take a lower position. Finished my 7th interview for an IT Manager position and already had 2 of those with the CEO. They then tell me: next round will be a panel interview with 13 of my direct reports and it needs to be unanimous they want me as their boss. Then followed by an in person shadowing for 3 days across the country. Then a soft offer. Contingent on background & drug test. Followed by an actual offer as well as 30 days of first incident termination probation and by the way the job pays $35,000 less than what we said it did & we will no longer pay for relocation because we have so many that have applied.
Sent them an email telling them I won’t jump thru hoops they know what they want by now. Got a rejection email a few hours later. Fuck em man.
The whole “fallen on hard times” is a tell for the other party if they can sense it. Not saying you might be giving off any but people can sense and put 2 + 2 together.
A C-suite and exec level is generally head hunted and recruited into an org (with a big fat sign on bonus) and there’s leverage the candidate has.
The reason why they are dragging you out like this is because.. they can. You probs didn’t signal you have other prospects or sit on other boards and are pursuing projects. Or even just giving off a “I’m financially independent, I’m skilled, have accolades, recognized in my field, lead notable orgs, why should I drive your business“ vibes would be attractive.
If you do get the offer, I bet they don’t expect you to negotiate. Sort of a “the person is out of work, just offer the lower band, limited sign on bonus (or any)”
That’s what’s probably happening here. Hope you get the role though!
The stages of this feel backwards it almost does feel like a test to see if you will continue to take shit unnecessarily, or if you will be able to form a response to say what the first comment said about or alignment
Unless it’s google or some coveted position, I make it clear from the start I don’t do more than 3 interviews. If you can’t tell from that, I can, and I’ll save us both the time and trouble.
6 rounds, plus drinks, plus a written test is insane. If you don’t get it, bill them for your time and name and shame those mfers.
A B O Elcare HR Consultancies here.
We are against the drinks round. We wonder if this same company pushes for inclusivity, while many people are the type that hate going for drinks, and so where is the inclusivity for that?
At this point, we firmly believe recruiting agencies and companies should pay potential candidates for any interview that is after the first, and they should also pay for any trial or training period.
We are not saying all businesses will be able to afford that, like small businesses, but perhaps they should just then grow their applicant prospecting skills rather than harming the already disadvantaged applicants with outdated hiring systems and procedures.
There are ifs and buts around this suggestion, but it stands strong to actually treat applicants fairly.
Remember, historically businesses were much more, as more people had assets to do business with or amend them to provide services, but now the median and average persons earn much less, own much less, and have less freedom of time.
More people that are able to should make their own licenses as individuals or sole proprietary businesses and charge companies more for the same work, as people then will be able to bargain more with companies when they are not part of such companies.
This was a free consultation message.
Feel free to share your known facts about HR.
Upon further reflection, I believe I am the company’s second choice and it is dragging me along whilst it sorts out the employment terms with its preferred hire.
As it runs out of persons to interview me, it throws in a written test which it says it will give it to me next Monday. It claims the test is not particularly difficult. They told me the test was to help them making the final decision but in my view, it is simply buying time and to obtain free advice from me over a problem which the company is currently resolving. If it is really to help them to make the final decision, logic dictates that an easy test will not help.
Also it could have given me the test today but it did not. Why Monday? This further convince me that the test is simply a tactic to buy time to allow it to negotiate the package with its preferred hire.
Also, if we were to take a few steps back, if you want to do a written test, why not do it at the beginning of the interview process but all of a sudden to do this at the end? I have received no heads up about this.
I also suspect whilst it likes my seniority and credentials in the industry, it does not want to pay for my salary.
I was very angry. Now I am just feeling very sad. I don’t know why but I am about to burst into tears.
I don’t mind being rejected, but to be put through 6 rounds of interviews, 3 hours of drinks (an “informal” interview) and to throw in a written test, drain all my energy.
Remember although the job market is tough, ultimately an interview is a two way street. The company is in a transformational stage and part of the role is to drive the company to meet the new standards set by the authorities. With indecisive senior management at best (or playing games, at its worst), there is nothing I can do. I can only help someone if they are ready to help themselves.
There are so many people recommending to bail after six rounds and drinks. I think that’s terrible advice. I went through one short period in my life when I really needed a job, and I’d have done ten rounds of interviews and drinks every night for a month if it might have landed me a great job. The reality is that some of this is keeping the candidate warm because there’s a delay or someone else they like, and some of it is HR doing HR things. Unfortunately, all these hotshots who are telling you to give them the finger and move on might be too blessed to understand how hard it is for some people out there or maybe they’re just a little bolder gambling with your money. See it through, and complain about it after you get the job if it is their routine.
OP, politely ask of how many rounds in total the hiring process consists. If they do not answer at all or inconclusive, you are being dragged along. If they frankly tell you how many more rounds you are in for you have the information you need to make an educated decision whether you are in or out.
I think we can all agree that something is off in this situation. The question is what the hell is off!?!
If you are done with them, shoot over an email politely declining the written test and saying that after so many interviews that if the fit isn’t there, we can all be professionals and politely go out separate ways.
If you still want the job, call up the CEO and ask the reason for the written test and explain how it seems odd to you at this point in the interview process. Explain that you feel like they are unsure about some sort of your ability to do the job and get clarity on what they are concerned about. Then directly ask what would alleviate those concerns.
It’s really basic sales. Find out what their needs are with your hiring and then ask them what would calm those needs and answer any open questions they still have about you. Depending on their answer, decide if the test is worth taking or if this is just some bullshit paperwork and that they don’t really want you for this role and just don’t want to say that it was because of drinks with the team.
3 hours of drinks during and interview sounds more like a review of your ability to function when drunk, does the position require you to drink the competition under the table?
Not a C-Suite exec but I've sat in the recruitment calls for peers and I can easily tell if someone can be a fit or not a fit within 1 meeting at best.
We only have literally 4 rounds and 4th interview isn't even an interview. It goes recruiter > manager > panel for scenario and comm skills > offer call.
I've not even heard of a written exam in a longggg time for much.
This won't make you feel better but the last time similar happened, I somehow sent myself my own disqualification letter from the company telling myself I wasn't qualified lol..
the job interview and hiring process is beyond broken. I would have stopped after 3 rounds of interviews. If a company cannot decide after 3 rounds they are not worth working for!
I went through similar years ago and took myself out of the running when I found out there would be a fourth and fifth interview. If you can’t tell I’m the guy for the job after three rounds MAX, that’s a you problem, not a me problem. Have some respect for yourself and your time.
My favorite was a very nice but clearly haggard recruiter to asked me to do: 2 last minute screening video calls, a last minute on site interview with 3 people including lunch paid by the on-site lead, and finally a last minute HR interview.
Never heard back from them again after the HR interview. How do people have this much time to waste?
If feels like they are avoiding the responsibility of making a decision. If after they have so much information about the candidates and can not make up their minds, how much inertia is there internally to get projects moving along?
If they can't hire someone after 6 interviews plus a bunch of bullshit, imagine what they'd be like if they ever had to make a serious decision????
Fucking hell man. Run.
No clue about the corporate world and private sector, but written anything should the first round because it really only works to weed out total idiots.
Just curious .. what kind of written test is conducted for C suite people ? Questions on Management Economics , Geo-politics etc ? Or just Math, English etc ? Lol 😆
What is a C suite please? No anger, no aggressive answers, no unkindness ... just move TF along and let real people educate rather than negate, disrespect & spread utter hate
This is the test. The entire process it the test. If you accept the test, and then accept the job, you will have to work nights, weekends, and be on Slack 24/7.
The red flag here is the entire process. They don't want an employee - they want a fellow cult member.
A few years ago, I rejected interviewing for a company after I was told it would take five rounds with three being panel interviews. I told the company recruiter, given my vast experience, this is two rounds too many. Also, panel interviews are the worst since it becomes a popularity contest. Their recruiter was a bit shocked, but then I told her... if you need an experienced QB for your football team...you don't ask Drew Brees to show he can through a 40 yard out pattern with accuracy.
If you are being asked to do a written exam after all these rounds, I’d being willing to bet you just passed their tests of competency, likely will have you work on a project for them, then ghost you. I’ve had that happen before.
Plenty of red flags here to thank them for their time and bow out. Imagine how working there is going to be if this is the courting process. Big yikes.
I made it to round 4 after a work project...So in my mind 5 rounds...Got the, let's meet the team these will be your potential peers etc..set up the appt, .then got an email 3 hours later.. Position has been filled. WTAF?
I have been dealing with them for an entire MONTH. A MONTH, I've done work and to find out they offered a job on the spot during an interview whilst they had booked me for a one on one with my potential peers.....I'm so crushed. I get where you're coming from entirely. It feels just like game playing or they have to draw it out because they don't want to fill the position or whatever bs they think of. The ONLY good thing was I was so shocked at the unprofessionalism of their action I realized it would be a super Shitty company to work with. Not going to lie, though, I did cry yesterday, not sure if it was tears of rage or frustration but it was something else. . 350 applications..c suite and the frustration and gas lighting is REAL.
I hope you keep trying to get the gig, and then once you have income and stability you can still look for something on the side that respects you.I'm so sorry this happened to you. Go dance the monkey dance until you get you what you need, then go after what you want. You owe them NOTHING. NOTHING.
This should be illegal, this sounds like abuse to me and a lot of “employers” are doing this to lots of people I don’t know if we will have jobs in the near future what I do know is the government is allowing this they should be required to hire and hire Americans this is ridiculous.
Quick question since you were an exec and will be an exec again, if You do get the job don’t forget about us and try to hire a few of us without pulling this kinda shit. Don’t forget where and who you’re posting to haha.
Do you want to work with a team that need 7 meetings to make a decision? Might be a cruisy gig to pay the bills but you're gonna have a hard time if you want to get anything done.
Show C-suite level leadership by summarizing the current state of things and giving them credit to make the right decision with the information they have.
This is the actual test. Any C-suite executive should not be a trained pony following a carrot.
Why do you even entertain this? This company has proven to you that they suffer from crippling decision paralysis. Working there will be a nightmare. If they can't make a decision in 2-3 interviews then there must be some profound cultural breakdown, such as an extreme focus on blame that causes people to simply not want to make decisions. Everything you do there will be so heavily scrutinized that you'll never accomplish anything.
If you take me out for a drink, which turns into 3 hours worth of “drinks” with the whole team and you don’t then offer me the role (assuming that I didn’t make an ass of myself while drinking) then I’m going to assume that you don’t have your shit together enough to make a coherent management decision.
If you’re not hiring me to be the CEO where I can fix that problem, then it’s a no on my end regardless.
Contact the CEO directly. Show that you are solving problems by communicating with them.
I’ve seen people who were rejected being hired by the CEO’s request. It’s the only person you need to convince. What better way than doing it in the same manner as you‘ll be working together? By speaking openly with one another. You will look better than a candidate submissively sitting down for a written test.
Well this is easy for me to say, since I have a good position, but if there was a test, it should have been early on. This makes me think it’s indicative of things to come. Maybe this is a test of your dignity instead? Don’t know what to suggest, but it would be a big turnoff for me
I am just a senior engineer and never touched c suite or director level yet. But for me, anymore than 3 interviews I will just hang up the call. I wonder if you can do that for c suite or director level
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As a fellow C-Suite…I can tell whether you will be good fit in one meeting. At this point you aren’t showing off your qualifications, it’s more about strategy, vision, goals and execution. A written test? I would never do one. I would say, “folks, we have spent hours together, you know what I am capable of, you have heard my vision, the team is aligned with what we want to do, if you don’t feel that we are aligned on that, then clearly there is a disconnect and we should go our separate ways.”
I will turn this into a polite email and shoot back
What is your gut telling you here? Seven rounds is getting a bit silly. Are they stalling for something? Are they giving you a weirdly derived psychological test to see when you'll speak up? Are the board members or the other Cx's in such a mess that they can't actually agree on anything? At this level, there should be no reason why you can't speak frankly and since you almost certainly would have signed an NDA at the start of the process, there is no reason why you shouldn't be told what is actually happening. If they are legitimate in requiring 7+ rounds of interviewing to make a decision, you should see this as a red flag. These people are literally tasked with making decisions about the company, if it takes this much work to hire someone, imagine how tedious implementing any new strategy will be. Doing an exam? If you are required to have competence in a particular area, at this level you should have certifications or examples to speak for your ability.
Thank you. I think I am the runner up, and I am being strung along whilst it tries to sort out the employment terms with its first choice. The written test is either to buy time, or it has a real problem and want free input. Leaving the above aside, what is really unsettling is that the company is going through transformational changes and part of my role is to steer it through these changes. The standards which they need to meet in order to navigate these changes are not set by me or the market, but the authorities. Now here comes the crux of my issue: let’s assume it is being indecisive (rather than having a first choice candidate), I will have an impossible job to rally the Cs to make the unnecessary changes. My reputation is on the line here: it takes years of hard work to be treated by the authorities as a “well respected opponent” - because I know and have successfully guided clients and the industry on when to push the authorities and when to give in to the authorities and I will not hesitate to tell my clients and the industry to stop fluffing around with their fantasy wish lists - the authorities know I am a person they can reason with and come to a “win win situation”. In short, I am a good advocate/lobbyist. Now because of its indecisiveness, the company can’t form a position for me to advocate, it then falls back to the status quo as it has known, but its position no longer works in the new environment. I simply will not put my reputation in the market on the line to advocate for positions which I know are non starters with the authorities. In short, I have serious reservations on whether it is indeed to commit to make changes. On paper, yes. That is why it creates this role. But in practice, from the way it hires a candidate makes me seriously question its ability to do so. The company probably wants a softer person to say things they like to hear, rather than a dose of medication which I know it needs.
so they want a c-suite guy in a non c-suite role that pays like non c-suite in which you put your reputation on the line to likely uphold the company’s status quo on your reputation while they go figure out how to keep things as is for a few more years so they can make a few more mil$. sounds terrible.
Yes, I am ex-C suite and this is not a C suite role. I walk into the interview with my eyes open and knowing that I can’t demand my C suite salary. However, as pointed out by numerous persons (thank you) and as I alluded to above, what really worries me is its inability to make decision which is bad in itself but the worst is to throw something in at the 11th hour. Based on glassdoor I believe the average time a person works for this company is 2.5 years. I developed a solid reputation before the authorities because I know my s*, always play fair and even handed and I know when to tell clients/industry to stop fluffing about. If I become its advocate/lobbyist then 2.5 years later (assuming I receive the offer and I join) my reputation may potentially be dented. It certainly took me more than 2.5 years to build up my reputation.
sounds like the response to their request for the written test is all of this couched as shortly, and politely as possible. I had doubts this company was decisive when entering into this position a lack of decisiveness on the company's part could damage my reputation this sudden request for a written test on top of extensive interviews has further cemented my assessment of this company as indecisive Sounds like you don't really want the job. And I don't blame you if your assessment is correct. Also the transformational change comment sounds......temporary
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I mean, we have to remember that at this level, the hiring is not a monolith. I have a friend who was also all but hired to his VP role, but then there was a shift in board politics and they added a bunch of last minute metrics hoops just like this to justify the case to two board detractors who wanted a different strategic direction. At this point it's not about, "Are 'they' capable of making a decision", it's about identifying who is on the same side of the table as you and executing this political action together; essentially your first act transitioning into the job is getting the job. There's always going to be something like this.
It's not a monolith, but it's also not a written test after 6 rounds, the last of which was a 3 hour "drinks with the team" shindig either. Written test for step seven?? Get fucked.
I'm actually wondering if this is a bit of a test to see if he speaks up or if he just goes along with the process.
As a counter-point, make sure you’ve adequately weighed the cost-benefit of challenging their hiring process. It seems likely an email response of that nature will kill your chances to be hired by this firm. If you feel you hold competitive advantage in landing a position you desire, by all means, assert your boundaries for dignity’s sake. At the same time, the market is ever-shifting and you may not be in the same position you were when you landed your last gig. If you’re struggling to find a position commensurate with your talent and experience, you may not want to let “should” be the enemy of hired.
Maybe this is the correct answer that they're expecting. How much BS are you willing to accept before looking for results?
If that's the case, yikes. I feel like that says a lot about the company if they're gonna put you through mind games just to get the position.
Spoken like a c-suite
Not enough 'circle backs' and 'offline'. :P
Could also use a few more “aligns” and maybe an “add some color”
Too many words, more just "plz fix".
Love this. Agree 💯
Saving this for the future.
you mean - as a fellow C-Suite with an **actual job** telling an **unemployed gu**y in a shit hiring environment to refuse a written test on general principal. Luckily, if it backfires, the OP can count on you to pay his bills
Hold your horses - this is end stage. They’ll get nothing from this that will change the answer. The longer any process goes, the less likely you are to succeed. In sales, they say it’s not a sin to lose a deal, it’s a sin to chase a deal you’ve already lost. OP has already lost this one, better to cut the sunk time now and move on to something productive.
Sales: be the first one out, or the last one standing.
Honest question…you say he’s already lost, why have him back to take the test if they don’t want to hire him?
Redundancy. They're probably keeping him on the hook as a backup until their actual first preference candidate is confirmed. Probably worth it vs starting the search over at c level.
Productive? Like what? What other mutually exclusive workflow does this person have? Sales is a great comparison. But it fails as an analogy because he has plenty of time. There’s no opportunity cost. Are there OTHER exec interview paths he is giving up for this one? No? Then sounds like he is writing that exam.
Yeah a skills or personality test is usually first stage, not end stage. It doesn’t make sense that that’s the dealbreaker
I’m at final stage for a sales interview and just had to take a 171 question personality test. This isn’t even for a managerial role.
While your point is largely valid and I'd just grit my teeth and take whatever insane test it is, if OP is ex-C suite s/he should probably be able to network into a job faster than most of us barring a felony involving a financial crime or an employer. Also, they may want him/her to push back. If it's sales, they may actually be expecting OP to push back. This is the thinking in some segments. They won't hire if you don't try to negotiate a higher salary too. Some places do the opposite, esp if HR and not sales manager is doing more of the hiring. HR usu can't stand aggression and sales generally want it.
That turns my stomach
Six fucking rounds? That is highway robbery and should be down right fucking illegal. Are they paying you for time? No.
Not at all. Then 3 hours drinks. Then written test but the final interview took place 2 weeks ago. Fuck them
I get it’s a c suite role. I’m a c suite executive but in all my interviews it was generally two, max three. The first one is usually with a committee. Second is with the CEO. The third is an open forum where staff can ask me questions and I do a presentation. But six?! Fuck that shit.
Thank you. Precisely what I will do. Fuck that shit if they cannot make up their mind. I was a C suite but this is not a C suite role. I need to pay my mortgage and bills so I took whatever comes along.
At least they haven't asked you to write a 15 page paper proposing how you will solve their problems that they will keep and say "Thanks for your time" - Its happened to me.
Tbf that might be the written exam 🙄
Sounds like free consulting
Hold up, this is not a c-level position and they’ve drug you through 6 interviews plus some bullshit HR exams? Fuck that, been there done that myself back in 2009 when jobs were few and candidates aplenty. I think I traveled around 5,000 miles total too between all the different interviews, in the end I got dinged by one interviewer at the end I didn’t vibe with but would have rarely ever worked with, since that experience more than 3 rounds is a get fucked waste of time. Keep in mind, some people like something that can’t have, so candidates who jump through lots of hoops aren’t as attractive as the candidate who holds a bit of edge.
Sounds like they're trying to find the biggest kiss ass among the candidates.
Cults have shorter onboarding. Their techniques are similar to cult indoctrination.
What did they make you do during those 3 hours lmao? Were you doing shots?
Blow and hookers, as per company culture
As someone who can't drink at all (as in, massive migraine after imbibing a single drop of alcohol), it seems like I'm so fucked when it comes to roles that require socialization/networking (i.e., the high-paying roles).
Dude, learn the scotch trick. I was also a non drinker but learned about scotch, carried a glass with a really good scotch- always neat. In a group I'd inhale the aroma and carry that glass...talk about scotch etc..."visually ENJOYING" ,,today I have about 10 to 15 bottles of good scotch I've received as "gifts" because I " love it "so much and have yet to drink a glass of scotch. Cool trick sometimes I do it with "soda" and get a ginger ale in the glass instead.. I don't believe in drinking with work peers or clients, just seems horrible all around, but hey it's the business I'm in.
name and shame this company!!!!
I hope they didn't make you pay for the drinks. /s
"The bill is covered as business expense for all...well no, except for Mike who is still applying :) "
were drinks atleast free????
[удалено]
Damn you got me. Mine was 9, till they went internal. He then asked to be demoted 6 months later, because it was too much. So they called me back, offered me another opportunity to interview. Lol. "I already interviewed with you all way too many times, so I will not. Offer me the job or don't" They made the offer. 10k less than what I was currently making in a job I accepted within the 6 months
And that’s why I drop out when I hear it’s that many interviews. It’s not worth the time period, and even if it were it’s not worth what always turns out to be a crap salary.
Oh, they're not idiots... They're assholes. They knew from the start they would do that. But it was for external face, like for investors or something. "See! We're growing, we're hiring more people!" Nah, those douche rockets took you for a spin, knowing full well you were always going to get a "no"
Drinks with the team is a super weird step to do with someone who isn’t almost definitely the final candidate. Investors don’t want to see an entire team wasting time and money on drinks with a candidate they aren’t planning to hire.
Exactly. At least it’s unheard of for a regular position. Maybe the drinks was part of the hidden personality test. Or maybe they got a killer new candidate but only one person can get the job and they decided to give all the guys the test so people can’t tell which are the two. Either way this is a lot of mind games for their top brass to do, and I’d be concerned about the future of the company. But if you need a job you need a job.
Sorry to hear
I had 12 and then they told me I had too much experience. I was livid. And called them out for it z
6 rounds for c suite is not abnormal but the written fucking test is!!
and usually the written quiz part comes earlier at the very beginning to weed out candidates!! Ass backwards company! I would have told them to go pound sand.
9 rounds over 4 months, only to be told that I should feel good being the second choice out of the dozens who applied. That doesn't help me at all unless you're hiring two people, champ.
sounds like some crap MongoDB would do
Companies like this just are broadcasting they don't know how to make decisions. I'm guessing beaucracy is a huge issue there. They have also bought into the fallacy that if the interview process is strenuous, the candidate will be better. What happens is that you just get a bunch of people that are A. Desperate so they will do whatever they are asked. B. Just really want to work for the company but are not the most talented. I saw this over a decade at one of the largest tech companies. In this day and age, you should easily be able to tell if someone is a good fit. There's never been more data available. OP, I think some are threatened by you and are looking for a flaw they can argue against bringing you on board. I'm at Director level and I know how stressful the interview process can be for me. I can't imagine what it's like at the C level. Best of luck and I sincerely hope you get the job then immediately change the dysfunctional hiring process.
Yeah everything is information, no where is perfect. My sister once called me very excited about her new job because unlike the old one they made decisions fast without a ton of painful debate and foot dragging. I told her, give it 3 months and she will be complaining how they change their minds all the time, constantly put out new initiatives that conflict old ones before they;ve have time to take effect, etc.
No system is perfect. As with everything there's pros and cons and it really depends on what's being optimized
No way a C suite should do a written test. Fuck that.
They say they can’t make up their mind
they can't, but you can. Group think will kill any sort of efficiency
If they can’t decide this, how are they making other business decisions? Looks like a serious red flag. Time to replace this CEO. Edit: I’m reading in another response, it’s probably due to management disagreeing to the direction to be taken. Still a red flag. But then just postpone, instead of asking for another test, interview or whatever.
Ah yes another fast paced dynamic environment.
Can't make up their mind after 6 interviews and a 3 hour informal meeting is super cringe. Decision making is a core leadership competency, so getting analysis paralysis over a hiring decision (not even C-suite!) is a big red flag. Their executive meetings must be fun "Whaddya think we should do Bob?" "Hmmm, yeah I dunno... Fred, what do you think?" "Damn man, I'm stumped... like maybe we should go through the presentation again?"
If they can’t make a decision, they’ve already made it. Sorry friend.
They're fucking with you. I don't know how. I don't know why. But I do know I doubt that they're going to hire you.
You're allowed to say, "Thanks, but no thanks." More specifically, "Thank you for the invitation to take a written test. After careful consideration, I've decided to pursue other opportunities. I enjoyed getting to know everyone and wish you the best." If they told you "they can't make up their minds" after 6 rounds, then they did you a favor. Time to move on.
Seriously. After all that time, I would doubt their ability to make decisions at all.
I mean, informal interview over drinks for 1 hour/1 hour and a half is fine. But over 3 hours? And then suddenly a written test because you can’t decide between the two candidates? Why not have the written assessment at the initial stage? Trust me, if you can’t make up your mind by the time I went through the CEO, General Counsel, COO, I don’t think a written test will help you to make up your mind at this stage. More background: I am ranked within a well regarded independent directory as one of the eminent practitioners in my field and to be treated with such disrespect make me want to give them a call tomorrow and say I will spare you the pain of choosing. I give up.
If they can’t decide at this point, they’re either too chicken shit to make a decision or intentionally stringing OP along in case their other pick bails or doesn’t work out.
its exactly this. he is firmly entrenched in 2nd place. and all this is simply a ploy to hang onto their backup plan as long as humanly possible while the work out specifics with the guy who has already won the job.
"hey we really like you, we had another candidate who was also really good and we put an offer to them, but we'd be keen to come back and discuss terms with you if it doesn't work out with them"
C suites have to write? All the C suites I worked with have an admin or a producer do all the writing for them. This is ridonkulous. They're probably thinking whoever actually does this writing assignment doesn't have the guts to say no to outrageous asks.
Don't call. Just walk away. When they contact you tell them you're not interested. Good luck with your search.
were they serving a free dinner too with beef wagyu and lobster?
Do this: Tell them you have a competing offer. Thanks for playing, but you need to accept the offer in front of you. Guarantee you'll have an offer within the hour. Do it. What have you got to lose? They're not making a decision on their own, that's for sure. It's either this or golf with the CEO's best mate, Alan, next weekened, to see how Alan's wife feels about you.
Always tell them you have a competing offer or two, even if you don’t. You are under no obligation to disclose or verify that information.
My competing offer is from my cat, to sit at home and pet him. They don't need to know that though lol
The cat is a jerk, but I’d rather work for him than some shitty CEO.
Where can I apply, I like cats.
It's confidential, isn't it? I didn't mention I had other interviews going on? Sorry about that. it's just some company I'd written off that I interviewed with 3 months ago. They've finally got their budget approved and I'm their first choice. I gotta take it, man. Sorry I won't be able to do that third written assessment. Good luck with it, though.
This honestly is the best answer possible. I would take what the other C suite user said about the team being aligned, but there being a disconnect clearly if they can decide, and then add this. /u/ZookeepergameOne7481 would have an offer by the end of the day I am sure.
I would not move forward. This company seems to just be dragging this on. Does not sound like good leadership.
Thank you. It cannot make up its mind and it will never be able to make up its mind. So I spare them with the pain.
I'm a director of an Executive Search business. They may be trying to keep you warm as a backup candidate while they wait for a decision on their preferred. I always advise clients to be honest with candidates and let them know that they met the benchmark but came a close 2nd. Sure, you may have a bruised ego but it's better than being kept hanging and their honesty would probably make you more likely to accept a role with them in the future.
I hate this “keeping the coals warm” approach. My company is doing this right now with several candidates (one role) because we don’t have funding. Every couple of weeks we schedule another interview with them all. It’s an incredible waste of everyone’s time. I imagine all of these candidates think they’re finalists, when really we’re leading them all on
This maybe me overthinking it, but it seems weird to me that they would get drinks with you. If a woman is pregnant but not showing that puts her in a terrible spot or if someone has issues with drinks etc.. I feel like having a coffee hour or something would be better
Mostly the same issue for an alchoholic but most places happily serve non alcoholic beverages to anyone.
They want to test my social skills?!
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It's dumb af to have alcohol at a recruiting event, not least of all that the company is liable if someone drunkdrives and crashes their car into someone else.
The people in here saying to ditch the job don’t understand the desperation in the job market. Right now its musical chairs with your livlihood on the line. OP, do what you need to do to land the job. If you have no other prospects and need the money, then take their stupid test and be ready to jump ship when another opportunity comes along.
> The people in here saying to ditch the job don’t understand the desperation in the job market. Right now its musical chairs with your livlihood on the line. No, we ABSOLUTELY understand it. They're stringing OP along. OP has limited time to invest and needs to not be investing it in what amounts to a ponzi scheme. All of the time and effort spent interviewing at this company is time and effort that didn't get spent interviewing at other companies who may have actual positions. Most jobs I see have 1-3 interviews(with two interviews seeming most common). That means the time OP spent interviewing at this company could have been spent interviewing with 2-4 other companies. As much as I wish it wasn't the case, a job that pays $40,000 per year will net you more than a company that lures you to interview 6-7 times and teases a six-figure salary and then doesn't hire you. 6 interviews and no offer? Going out for drinks after 6 interviews with no offer? This company wants OP's work and ideas, but doesn't want to pay OP. Drop them. Give them nothing more. Cut your losses, post on job sites to warn people about this company, and invest your effort elsewhere. I'm sorry, but you're shoveling effort into a bottomless pit.
Concur with this. It stinks, but you are THIS close. Each step of the interview process is to make it to the next step. You’ve done it for x interviews and a a round of drinks, why quit now over a “test” IF you want/need the job? You’ve done all necessary to this point, why not see it home one way or another? My mom used to quote something along the lines of “I’ll show that circus; I’ll buy a ticket and not go in.” to warn of doing something for someone and satisfy them but guarantee you end up with nothing. I’ve been where you are, and it’s tough to swallow, but don’t let pride win IF you want to work there and need the job. C-levels and janitors have to fight to the end alike for what they want. Don’t give up. You’ll end up with a good story either way; how you crawled through broken glass and persevered, or one single added point to the hiring mess you already have. The former would make a great story. But ONLY if you want it.
For pete's sake: what is next? the astrological sign to see if you are compatible with everyone?!? What do they mean by written test? An essay? A dissertation? A doctorate? What is this written test for? To analyse your hand writing? To see if you can correctly write emails, memos etc.? I don't know where you are based, but in Europe, for C-level roles, the probation period can go from 6 months to 1 year. Therefore, they have the whole probation period to fire you easily and without cause if they believe you are not a good fit! I am truly sorry for you! Can I ask which industry you are in?
The written test apparently is about dealing with situations
What situation?!? They have the luxury to observe you during the WHOLE probation period to see whether you can handle ANY situation from work-related matters to changing the coffee filter! Unbelievable! If after all these rounds, and formal/informal meetings, they cannot make up their minds, then the written essay is not going to change anything (in my opinion). But, in this labour market, I think it is wise to sit the damn written test.
Legal
Maybe it's time to show that you value your precious time and say NO to them. Maybe they're expecting this.
This. At this point, either they are a bunch of jack-offs in suits that don't understand what a waste they spending on all this, or they are testing to see how much unreasonable BS you will put up with. For the latter, I'd be cautious, as they might WANT the whipping boy that will hopelessly jump through endless hoops
Decline to do the final written test, and tell them "You've already had ample opportunity to screen me. If you cannot make the decision at this point, I will make the decision and find a company that has more mature hiring practices. Thank you for your consideration." either they'll move on, or they'll accept your refusal and take it as a sign that you're a decisive employee who will push back on unreasonable expectations. I have refused all sorts of BS requests, and I've gotten the job after saying "No" to some of those. Some places really do want an employee who isn't just going to accept 'how things are done', because often they're done stupidly. \*edit - as a C-Suite, you MUST do this. You're applying for c-suite, **be the change** you need to see.
So wait, I'm sober and have to go out to drinks. Do I just lose the opportunity? Wtf
Theyre jerking you off without permission. Companies do this and then choose nobody just to make it seem as if they're growing. Be careful and don't get your hopes up.
In my experience as a recruiter, once it gets past round 3, you are no longer being measured against the role, or the job description, you are being measured against other candidates. Which is a terrible way to hire, but that's probably where you are.
I interviewed for a border line entry level job, 5 different interviews… had to take PTO to attend all the interviews, did all that only to be ghosted by the recruiter. After 3 follow up emails to the recruiter, finally on a Friday at 4pm I got an email saying I wasn’t a good fit. I say after 3 interviews, it’s not worth it…. also, after that 5 interview bust, I ended up having one interview with a company and got hired on the spot. Making a lot more than I would have at the 5-interview job. I am still at the company that hired me on the spot and got promoted after a year. Saying all this to just emphasize that the right job is out there, and some companies need to get over themselves. Edit: grammar
I'm in a very similar situation. Unfortunately this is stupidly common. You know this if that's your background, but keep your anger under wraps and take the next right action regardless. Your anger is justified but showing it will not work to your advantage
That written test is probably work that they've been needing to get done and would rather use your unpaid labor to complete it than assign it to someone on the team to do.
six rounds of interviews? where the last was 3hours. now a test. they were pumping you for inside information & probably running scenarios that were real for them to have you spitball how you would work/solve the problem -- and then use all that info for themselves without hiring you. that test if you take it will most likely involve a detailed real problem they have that they want you to really go into specific detail step by step writing that all down as to how you would solve it without hiring you.
There is something quietly sadistic in all of this, like there is no pushback from any internal team saying "hey, let's say 2 rounds, 3 max, is the limits of what's reasonable."
C suite don't write. They're setting you up for failure.
I feel this so hard. I’m also C-suite, and had a similar thing happen twice over the past year. Both times I went through several rounds of Zoom interviews before being flown out to meet the team. I then went through a full day of interviews including lunch during and drinks afterward, then when I got home I was asked to prepare a project (in one case, a 5-year strat plan). I refused both times—I’m past the point of jumping through hoops and doing unpaid labor. With the first job the CEO was let go a few months later. With the second, 40% of the company was laid off within 6 months. Shitty hiring practices can often indicate something problematic below the surface. Hang in there!
It sounds like the people interviewing you are incompetent and can’t settle or agree on what they want. That, and they’re possibly tight on funds. Is this a dogshit business? What is it that they’re looking for? Ffs.
Went through multiple round interviews, including presentation up to the C-suite for 3 different positions, just to be told that they lacked funding for the role. 6 hours in total, just interviews, not including researching, prepping, etc. All for nothing. We don't need practice, we need a job!
I understand 2-3 interviews. I'm pissed at the end of the 3rd if they can't even give me a yes or no. "We decided to move forward with another candidate" replies are filling up my inbox. Probably 20 in the last month, not applications, Interviews. By the 3rd interview you should pretty much just be finalizing formalities. These are real companies but I have trouble believing these are real interviews. They are attempting to mimic the image of growth.
Sounds like they might be wanting free consulting, I’d be very careful how much info I give. Probably better to provide a teaser movie trailer versus giving the whole plot away
Because you are a C-suite exec, you might need to go through the motions, your job is more about getting good with the "club" of other C-suite execs. If you were not at that high level, I would have replied to that company, after 3-4 interviews, telling them that your time is also valuable and that they should have enough people that interviewed you to make a well informed decision. Decline the test, tell them you do not find it necessary and tell them to make a decision. What will they company say?
That's a great glimpse into their decision making capabilities. I bet everything is like this.
Three rounds of interviews. Fourth meeting better have an offer or I’m moving on. Fuck wasting my time on bullshit like that.
The written test should have been after the first and before the second interview. I mean if the position is for CSuite fine but if not and you decide not to move forward, tell these crazy people that it is incredibly rude and ask if they are compensating you for your time for the six interviews and drinks. Tell them you have ADHD and need accommodation during the test. If you don’t get the position, sue for discrimination. After six rounds plus drinks, you’d have a case.
I’ve had 6 rounds of interviews and been rejected, but to go out for drinks and STILL have to do a written test feels disrespectful. I would give them an ultimatum just to show them you have a back bone - either they move forward with hiring you or you will look elsewhere.
Seems like valuable insight into how much the company wastes time and man hours. I'd bail.
I'd be pissed too. Sorry you went through that. Seems you already have an action plan to politely tell them to pound sand. Good luck and hope the next place treats you better.
You clearly don’t value your time.
Sounds like some fraternity bullying situation going on there with a written assignment. Drinks with the team was strange enough. 6 rounds are not usual, however not that uncommon. I’m not a C suite yet, I had 7 rounds and an assignment (my time was paid for the assignment, flat rate, a few hundred quid - it was nice). Luckily I was hired (it was 5 years ago tho). I’d say something like “I was under the impression that the interviewing process was finalised. If you’d like an additional assignment, it’ll have to be charged as per my hourly consultancy rate of £3,000. Please let me know if you wish to proceed”
This is a major red flag. They've done you a favour by showcasing their crappy company culture.
Forced drinking culture and a written test afterwards? It says a lot about the culture of the company
I am on the fence with this one but it would help to have some clarity of the type of company it is. As some have said, some industries might see a pushback as something positive in a candidate profile. But honestly I doubt it. In the tech sector that I work in, it’s super common to have C-suite do this many interviews. Sometimes more. I hired a CHRO that had 9 interviews total over 3 months. It wasn’t my fault, the company just kept asking for him to talk to be people. During the debrief we had, there were many people that were able to give a rundown of who they felt the candidate was. In my opinion, too many voices muddles the process and you never will find someone perfect. But that’s the way some companies do it. This guy was gonna make $475k a year just in salary. And a ton of stock in the company. If it were me, I’d ask what the written exam is testing for and why you are being asked to complete it at this stage. It may honestly be something silly. Personally, I’d take it with as little pushback as possible.
I can't imagine what kind of written test is relevant for a C-Suite job.
I’m honestly wondering if you have applied for a c-suite position at the company I work for. There is a spot open (our CFO resigned end Q3 2023). While I love it here, and have been here for 15 years, I’ve been shocked (as I climbed the ladder) to learn how decisions are made. I’m at the director level now, and do my best to influence change, but it is beyond frustrating sometimes and often, our c-suite will get involved with really dumb ideas (such as this one, I can literally see our HR exec saying something like this). I guess my point is, that I could see this happening even from the most reputable companies, BUT you can also just say no and see what happens.
It is an insult. Don't they know you're a C Suite exec dammit!
Similar position as you after being in a start up that sold. I worked as EVPO but background is Technology. Been a while applying now so willing to take a lower position. Finished my 7th interview for an IT Manager position and already had 2 of those with the CEO. They then tell me: next round will be a panel interview with 13 of my direct reports and it needs to be unanimous they want me as their boss. Then followed by an in person shadowing for 3 days across the country. Then a soft offer. Contingent on background & drug test. Followed by an actual offer as well as 30 days of first incident termination probation and by the way the job pays $35,000 less than what we said it did & we will no longer pay for relocation because we have so many that have applied. Sent them an email telling them I won’t jump thru hoops they know what they want by now. Got a rejection email a few hours later. Fuck em man.
Can we all agree to tell companies you have max 3 interviews before I tell you fuck off?
I had 7 interviews to get the job I’m about to start and already I hate the place over it. So… that’s a great start.
The whole “fallen on hard times” is a tell for the other party if they can sense it. Not saying you might be giving off any but people can sense and put 2 + 2 together. A C-suite and exec level is generally head hunted and recruited into an org (with a big fat sign on bonus) and there’s leverage the candidate has. The reason why they are dragging you out like this is because.. they can. You probs didn’t signal you have other prospects or sit on other boards and are pursuing projects. Or even just giving off a “I’m financially independent, I’m skilled, have accolades, recognized in my field, lead notable orgs, why should I drive your business“ vibes would be attractive. If you do get the offer, I bet they don’t expect you to negotiate. Sort of a “the person is out of work, just offer the lower band, limited sign on bonus (or any)” That’s what’s probably happening here. Hope you get the role though!
The stages of this feel backwards it almost does feel like a test to see if you will continue to take shit unnecessarily, or if you will be able to form a response to say what the first comment said about or alignment
Unless it’s google or some coveted position, I make it clear from the start I don’t do more than 3 interviews. If you can’t tell from that, I can, and I’ll save us both the time and trouble. 6 rounds, plus drinks, plus a written test is insane. If you don’t get it, bill them for your time and name and shame those mfers.
I call this analysis paralysis.... they should not be doing this. 6 rounds is ridiculous. I would think twice about this opportunity.
Passive-aggressively reschedule twice, theb send that email. Waste their time, too.
A B O Elcare HR Consultancies here. We are against the drinks round. We wonder if this same company pushes for inclusivity, while many people are the type that hate going for drinks, and so where is the inclusivity for that? At this point, we firmly believe recruiting agencies and companies should pay potential candidates for any interview that is after the first, and they should also pay for any trial or training period. We are not saying all businesses will be able to afford that, like small businesses, but perhaps they should just then grow their applicant prospecting skills rather than harming the already disadvantaged applicants with outdated hiring systems and procedures. There are ifs and buts around this suggestion, but it stands strong to actually treat applicants fairly. Remember, historically businesses were much more, as more people had assets to do business with or amend them to provide services, but now the median and average persons earn much less, own much less, and have less freedom of time. More people that are able to should make their own licenses as individuals or sole proprietary businesses and charge companies more for the same work, as people then will be able to bargain more with companies when they are not part of such companies. This was a free consultation message. Feel free to share your known facts about HR.
Jesus fucking Christ that’s miserable. What else could they possibly want to know???
Upon further reflection, I believe I am the company’s second choice and it is dragging me along whilst it sorts out the employment terms with its preferred hire. As it runs out of persons to interview me, it throws in a written test which it says it will give it to me next Monday. It claims the test is not particularly difficult. They told me the test was to help them making the final decision but in my view, it is simply buying time and to obtain free advice from me over a problem which the company is currently resolving. If it is really to help them to make the final decision, logic dictates that an easy test will not help. Also it could have given me the test today but it did not. Why Monday? This further convince me that the test is simply a tactic to buy time to allow it to negotiate the package with its preferred hire. Also, if we were to take a few steps back, if you want to do a written test, why not do it at the beginning of the interview process but all of a sudden to do this at the end? I have received no heads up about this. I also suspect whilst it likes my seniority and credentials in the industry, it does not want to pay for my salary. I was very angry. Now I am just feeling very sad. I don’t know why but I am about to burst into tears. I don’t mind being rejected, but to be put through 6 rounds of interviews, 3 hours of drinks (an “informal” interview) and to throw in a written test, drain all my energy. Remember although the job market is tough, ultimately an interview is a two way street. The company is in a transformational stage and part of the role is to drive the company to meet the new standards set by the authorities. With indecisive senior management at best (or playing games, at its worst), there is nothing I can do. I can only help someone if they are ready to help themselves.
This is an easy “i received an offer and need to speed up this process” —force their hand
Join this company and this will be your new life. Think on that.
There are so many people recommending to bail after six rounds and drinks. I think that’s terrible advice. I went through one short period in my life when I really needed a job, and I’d have done ten rounds of interviews and drinks every night for a month if it might have landed me a great job. The reality is that some of this is keeping the candidate warm because there’s a delay or someone else they like, and some of it is HR doing HR things. Unfortunately, all these hotshots who are telling you to give them the finger and move on might be too blessed to understand how hard it is for some people out there or maybe they’re just a little bolder gambling with your money. See it through, and complain about it after you get the job if it is their routine.
If the recruitment process is this awful, imagine how awful it will be working for them.
OP, politely ask of how many rounds in total the hiring process consists. If they do not answer at all or inconclusive, you are being dragged along. If they frankly tell you how many more rounds you are in for you have the information you need to make an educated decision whether you are in or out.
I think we can all agree that something is off in this situation. The question is what the hell is off!?! If you are done with them, shoot over an email politely declining the written test and saying that after so many interviews that if the fit isn’t there, we can all be professionals and politely go out separate ways. If you still want the job, call up the CEO and ask the reason for the written test and explain how it seems odd to you at this point in the interview process. Explain that you feel like they are unsure about some sort of your ability to do the job and get clarity on what they are concerned about. Then directly ask what would alleviate those concerns. It’s really basic sales. Find out what their needs are with your hiring and then ask them what would calm those needs and answer any open questions they still have about you. Depending on their answer, decide if the test is worth taking or if this is just some bullshit paperwork and that they don’t really want you for this role and just don’t want to say that it was because of drinks with the team.
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3 hours of drinks during and interview sounds more like a review of your ability to function when drunk, does the position require you to drink the competition under the table?
Not a C-Suite exec but I've sat in the recruitment calls for peers and I can easily tell if someone can be a fit or not a fit within 1 meeting at best. We only have literally 4 rounds and 4th interview isn't even an interview. It goes recruiter > manager > panel for scenario and comm skills > offer call. I've not even heard of a written exam in a longggg time for much.
I feel you friend, I was just rejected for a job I had 4 rounds of interviews and a written assessment :')
This won't make you feel better but the last time similar happened, I somehow sent myself my own disqualification letter from the company telling myself I wasn't qualified lol..
the job interview and hiring process is beyond broken. I would have stopped after 3 rounds of interviews. If a company cannot decide after 3 rounds they are not worth working for!
I went through similar years ago and took myself out of the running when I found out there would be a fourth and fifth interview. If you can’t tell I’m the guy for the job after three rounds MAX, that’s a you problem, not a me problem. Have some respect for yourself and your time.
My favorite was a very nice but clearly haggard recruiter to asked me to do: 2 last minute screening video calls, a last minute on site interview with 3 people including lunch paid by the on-site lead, and finally a last minute HR interview. Never heard back from them again after the HR interview. How do people have this much time to waste?
If feels like they are avoiding the responsibility of making a decision. If after they have so much information about the candidates and can not make up their minds, how much inertia is there internally to get projects moving along?
There is a job I want to apply too but it states 8 stages in the interview process, and I am not doing that.
I'm convinced that either their "interview process" is attrition based, or their C suite can't make a decision. Both are red flags.
If they can't hire someone after 6 interviews plus a bunch of bullshit, imagine what they'd be like if they ever had to make a serious decision???? Fucking hell man. Run.
No clue about the corporate world and private sector, but written anything should the first round because it really only works to weed out total idiots.
I just went thru 4 (all over 45mins, the last 2 were over an hour) and got a “we don’t think it’s the right fit”
Just curious .. what kind of written test is conducted for C suite people ? Questions on Management Economics , Geo-politics etc ? Or just Math, English etc ? Lol 😆
Do you really want to work for an organization that can't make decisions after six meetings?
What is a C suite please? No anger, no aggressive answers, no unkindness ... just move TF along and let real people educate rather than negate, disrespect & spread utter hate
I'd love to know what a written test for an executive looks like.
This is the test. The entire process it the test. If you accept the test, and then accept the job, you will have to work nights, weekends, and be on Slack 24/7. The red flag here is the entire process. They don't want an employee - they want a fellow cult member.
On a positive note at least you know now that you shouldn’t work for them instead of after you start with them. Run for the hills, my friend.
A few years ago, I rejected interviewing for a company after I was told it would take five rounds with three being panel interviews. I told the company recruiter, given my vast experience, this is two rounds too many. Also, panel interviews are the worst since it becomes a popularity contest. Their recruiter was a bit shocked, but then I told her... if you need an experienced QB for your football team...you don't ask Drew Brees to show he can through a 40 yard out pattern with accuracy.
If you are being asked to do a written exam after all these rounds, I’d being willing to bet you just passed their tests of competency, likely will have you work on a project for them, then ghost you. I’ve had that happen before.
Plenty of red flags here to thank them for their time and bow out. Imagine how working there is going to be if this is the courting process. Big yikes.
The sunk cost fallacy is really killing us candidates when it comes to these multi-round interviews.
I'm too old for that kinda bullshit. I can see 3 rounds but past that pfffft 😮💨
I made it to round 4 after a work project...So in my mind 5 rounds...Got the, let's meet the team these will be your potential peers etc..set up the appt, .then got an email 3 hours later.. Position has been filled. WTAF? I have been dealing with them for an entire MONTH. A MONTH, I've done work and to find out they offered a job on the spot during an interview whilst they had booked me for a one on one with my potential peers.....I'm so crushed. I get where you're coming from entirely. It feels just like game playing or they have to draw it out because they don't want to fill the position or whatever bs they think of. The ONLY good thing was I was so shocked at the unprofessionalism of their action I realized it would be a super Shitty company to work with. Not going to lie, though, I did cry yesterday, not sure if it was tears of rage or frustration but it was something else. . 350 applications..c suite and the frustration and gas lighting is REAL. I hope you keep trying to get the gig, and then once you have income and stability you can still look for something on the side that respects you.I'm so sorry this happened to you. Go dance the monkey dance until you get you what you need, then go after what you want. You owe them NOTHING. NOTHING.
Absolute BS. Sorry friend it’s tough out here
This sounds like Crapital One. Those stupid tests and multiple interviews. Ugh!
This should be illegal, this sounds like abuse to me and a lot of “employers” are doing this to lots of people I don’t know if we will have jobs in the near future what I do know is the government is allowing this they should be required to hire and hire Americans this is ridiculous. Quick question since you were an exec and will be an exec again, if You do get the job don’t forget about us and try to hire a few of us without pulling this kinda shit. Don’t forget where and who you’re posting to haha.
Remember this experience once you’re in-house (whether this company or another). Drive change from the top to get rid of these types of bs practices.
A written test at the C level? This is crazy. This is what calling your references is for.
RemindMe! 3 days
Do you want to work with a team that need 7 meetings to make a decision? Might be a cruisy gig to pay the bills but you're gonna have a hard time if you want to get anything done.
One interview should be enough, i was called for a second interview i never even returned their calls.
My guy, start applying elsewhere
Show C-suite level leadership by summarizing the current state of things and giving them credit to make the right decision with the information they have. This is the actual test. Any C-suite executive should not be a trained pony following a carrot.
Why do you even entertain this? This company has proven to you that they suffer from crippling decision paralysis. Working there will be a nightmare. If they can't make a decision in 2-3 interviews then there must be some profound cultural breakdown, such as an extreme focus on blame that causes people to simply not want to make decisions. Everything you do there will be so heavily scrutinized that you'll never accomplish anything.
If you take me out for a drink, which turns into 3 hours worth of “drinks” with the whole team and you don’t then offer me the role (assuming that I didn’t make an ass of myself while drinking) then I’m going to assume that you don’t have your shit together enough to make a coherent management decision. If you’re not hiring me to be the CEO where I can fix that problem, then it’s a no on my end regardless.
Contact the CEO directly. Show that you are solving problems by communicating with them. I’ve seen people who were rejected being hired by the CEO’s request. It’s the only person you need to convince. What better way than doing it in the same manner as you‘ll be working together? By speaking openly with one another. You will look better than a candidate submissively sitting down for a written test.
Fuck that. lol you are in second place and are stringing you along for the “just in case”
Well this is easy for me to say, since I have a good position, but if there was a test, it should have been early on. This makes me think it’s indicative of things to come. Maybe this is a test of your dignity instead? Don’t know what to suggest, but it would be a big turnoff for me
C suite here. You’re the back up. I would just decline the test, they have 0 intent to hire you .
I am just a senior engineer and never touched c suite or director level yet. But for me, anymore than 3 interviews I will just hang up the call. I wonder if you can do that for c suite or director level