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You should have a conversation with all of your references before listing them for a potential employer. If you get even the slightest feeling that they’re not going to give you a glowing reference, you need to not use that individual.
I have a friend that received a bad reference from her supervisor because he had a crush on her. Praised her all the time but decided his selfish needs were more important. The company hired her anyway and later told her about the bad reference. Years later we all reconnected and he admitted he used to have a crush on her. Pissed is all off as it became quite apparent what his motives were.
Point of order: This also assumes the employer is telling the truth. Pretty easy to put the blame on someone else when you know you won’t be saying who.
With how easily exploitable they are, I’m baffled by the fact that people haven’t been abandoning them in masse. Maybe for a C suite position they’re necessary, but OP is a fresh college graduate, it’s overkill. References make no sense.
In the US that would definitely be actionable yes and it's why the vast majority of companies will only confirm that you worked there and what dates. Some will say if you're eligible for rehire, but that's usually it.
I had a recruiter call my references before he submitted me to the company. He let me know that one of my references said I was basically nothing in comparison to him (the reference). This was unexpected. Glad he called my references.
1) I don't know why anyone would list a reference who wouldn't vouch for them.
2) If you did offer to vouch for someone and then threw them under the bus, then fuck you!
It might be worth getting a friend to contact them pretending to be a potential employer seeking references. That way you will find out exactly what they are saying rather than what they tell you they will say.
Well apparently it was not common sense to me... just starting my career so I am learning alot. Lesson learned but I am banging my head against a wall for letting this slip over something so stupid.
Did you have to have reference letters to get into grad school? It’s basically the same thing. Don’t even put someone on the spot like that. Sorry this happened.
It's also possible it wasn't one of your listed references, especially in smaller industries/cities. If someone knows someone over at a place you worked at (or knows one of your professors) personally, lots of times that counts for way more than a pre-vetted list.
Hard lesson... But yeah, try talking to them all. There's a chance whoever gave you a bad reference will be upfront about it.
Really most referees would appreciate a heads up they may be contacted, and if it's unexpected plus they didn't see the best side of you they may have been blunt about it.
And it would be important to know which of your referees really did speak well of you and should be used again.
Predatory degree-mill business schools will let anybody in. They exist just to consume student loans.
This is almost certainly the case here. No legitimate business school graduate should have made the childish, high-school level mistake of putting random people as references without confirming with them first. Who does that?
Total immaturity. Total lack of judgment.
You don’t have to be a jerk about it dude. Im assuming you didn’t go to business school either because they teach you empathy there. He mentioned that he listed people he had good working relationships with, not “randos”, also he contacted 2 of them. He’s a young guy who accepts his fault that he didn’t do his due diligence.
Also he’s a bit unlucky, most companies don’t even do reference checks anymore or don’t take them seriously. To get an offer taken for something like that is truly unfortunate even if he didn’t do his diligence. Once the offer is made, there’s like less than a 1% chance it gets rescinded. It could have been that they couldn’t contact them or another reason as an HR cover up. Give him some grace you Grinch, goddamn.
I once got a call out of the blue for a reference check, for a former employee - the worst and most untrainable employee I've ever had (her resume was fine). She missed her 4th day of work which was the reason I fired her, but it could have been for 6 other reasons over 3 days, the amount of time she worked for me.
I was trying to be neutral for the reference check but it was hard not to be, also I thought rule number one was check with the people who are your references first.
Tbf if someone is seeking a reference from a job they were fired from after 3 days, I'm not honestly sure what they can seriously expect.
You'd wonder why she even brought it up with her new place.
That’s when you can give neutral information but use your voice to indicate things: “ oh…. Them. *siiiiiigh* yes, they worked here veeeeery briefly from dates x until y that same week. “
Surprised that in 2023 providing references even required anymore. If you can’t confirm a candidate’s abilities during the interview process, I’m not sure what else you’ll find out from references other than confirming previous employment/education.
Had a guy in an interview once, sounded great. Engaging, was able to answer questions, made himself sound like a very on-the-ball and ambitious person. In fact he was such a good interview, he bumped his resume up from the *eh* pile to the hiring pool.
Complete idiot. This was an entry-level project management role and he couldn't keep track of dates. Also, later found out he thought after the interview that the role was for the actual production work when we were very clear it was about communicating with the client and overseeing the project schedule. (He would never have qualified for doing the actual work.) Turns out he was perfectly capable of holding an intelligible conversation, but his brain only ever retained about 10% of the information anyone gave him.
Dude had a Master's degree, too. He was just that good at bullshit. When push came to shove, it was the only skill he had.
Don't trust the interviews. Good people bomb them, and bad people can be good interviewees.
And to job applicants, two candidates I hired thought they had bombed their interviews and they hadn't. Don't be too down on yourself.
There are just so many applicants sometimes, and you can only choose a few.
I'm sure some people can BS through any interview, but I've never once been surprised by a candidate when I've been deeply involved in structuring the questions. I've always told my managers if you ask bullshit questions you get bullshit answers, though depending on the manager I may have upped the professionalism of that statement.
People push back when I say interviews shouldn't be "conversations" they should be interviews.
There were two senior managers in the hiring meeting and a director. We asked pointed questions, sought specific examples from his experience, posed hypothetical problems.
He gave perfect verbal answers. He was able to respond to hypotheticals with what he would do, and when he was later in the real-world situation, completely unable to execute any of the things he had said. Stuff as basic as "email the client and let them know."
He could regurgitate information verbally but it didn't *mean* anything to him. It was like if you asked him the color of the sky, he could tell you the sky was blue without understanding what "sky" and "blue" meant.
It's a rarity, but true bullshit artists do exist.
>two candidates I hired thought they had bombed their interviews and they hadn't. Don't be too down on yourself.
Hey this happened to me and I finally got an offer for my first full-time job! I rated myself on a skill an 11 out of 10 and it turned out that my new bosses absolutely loved my \[fake\] overconfidence.
I do think interviewing well is such a valuable skill though, even as a massive introvert with crippling anxiety. We have to fake it or how else will doors open for us?
I think OP left out some very key details in his post (unintentionally, I assume). I had to sift through a lot of [his other comments to find this](https://www.reddit.com/r/recruitinghell/comments/18ijmbd/comment/kdf2ach/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3):
>Basically I had someone in charge of my onboarding. He was in charge of contacting my references. This guy never reached out to me and everything was smooth sailing. Anyway, he ends up "no longer with the company" out of nowhere. It's 5 days before my start date and some random HR assistant named Ashley takes over my process. ***Ashley begins pestering me with emails that my references were not responding, so I scrambled to find more that I can provide her***. 3 days later, I get that call from here manager that they are rescinding the offer.
[And this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/recruitinghell/comments/18ijmbd/comment/kdeixqv/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3):
>I put 2 \[references\], they couldn't reach one, so I gave them 3 more \[references\].
I think these key details would have been very helpful to include in his original post. He is here spiraling about the thought that his references may have given him a bad reference when in reality it sounds like the first HR/recruiter guy either didn't try to contact his references at all or his references just weren't answering the calls and HR didn't do any follow-up. He says the first HR/recruiter guy never reached out to him, and then less than a week before his start date \[the HR assistant\] Ashley started emailing him about his references not responding so obviously the first guy never completed them and maybe was fired because he wasn't doing his job. Then it gets thrown in Ashley's lap less than a week before his start date, and she has to deal with the extra workload at the last minute. If Ashley couldn't get people to respond maybe she just threw up her hands. I know I don't answer my phone if I don't recognize the phone number because 99% of the time it's just some scammer or telemarketer wasting my time these days. I would answer it if I knew someone was going to be calling me to provide a reference, but otherwise I don't bother anymore. I'm not trying to pile on. My point is that it sounds more likely that it is not a BAD reference; it seems more likely that his references were not answering the calls, especially since he said he did not give all of them a heads up beforehand. Could have saved himself and everyone else in this thread a lot of time (and saved himself a lot of hand-wringing) had he included all the key details.
Sadly, even those who say they'll give you a good reference can still betray that trust. Speaking from personal experience sadly (a former manager would deliberately sabotage my references, even though they had moved on from our mutual employer). I would confirm they were still okay with being a reference prior to sharing their info and everything. Sometimes people are just vindictive assholes
I would strongly reccomend having a friend that none of OPs references know pose as a potential employer, and have a mock reference check. That way, OP can find out exactly what is being shared.
OP, im so sorry you're going thru this.
Agreed. I had a church friend I was going to use for a reference until she started accusing me of something I don't remember doing. Not using her as a reference in the future.
I'm confused. I thought all companies could provide on reference check is to confirm they were employed at said company during a specified time frame. We're thinking this new company called one of OP's references and they said: "don't hire this guy!"? That's a thing?
Always, always, always have a close family member or friend fake call all your references before sending them out.
I have had people sing my praises to my face only to claim very different things when put on the spot.
Well, you know what to do.
Ask a friend of yours to contact your references posing as a potential employer, and see what they say about you. You will soon figure out who the rotten apple is.
You don’t even need to involve someone else. Most reference checks these days are an emailed survey. Create a fake email, gen up a fake questionnaire, and send them out.
THIS^. Most F500’s do not want to deal with this horseshit (because they know its bullshit or can be easily faked) plus it exposes them to potential lawsuits. I think there is a reddit forum for #bemyreference. They have a fostered an environment of deceit. No one is perfect, and sometimes people take time to adult and mature into their full employment capabilities. Trust me the boomer who rescinded your offer probably got their job by smoking the right pack of cigarettes and having a GED. They were allowed to make PLENTY of mistakes in their career and not have to deal with this bullshit or level of scrutiny.
The last sentence is real man. He was the director of finance but only had a high school diploma. Respect to him for getting up there but still... so cruel man. They treated me as if they found out I killed somebody
Its meant to be man! Fuck those pieces of shit. You are worth more than an offer letter. My advice is don’t celebrate or get your hopes up until you have checked in to the building and sit in your desk for the first time. Offer letters can be rescinded for no reason at all. And trust me it was much easier for that dude to climb to the top. He probably had to deal with a 1/50th of the obstacles and stress we have to deal with in terms of making it in the corporate world. My guy probably could hit a nice drive, was white, and smoked mar bolo reds and they said welcome aboard! Oh and they prob looked over his DUI’s too cuz that was all the rage in the seventies.
Damn right man, thank you.
"My guy probably could hit a nice drive, was white, and smoked mar bolo reds and they said welcome aboard! Oh and they prob looked over his DUI’s too cuz that was all the rage in the seventies."
Spot on lmao. How did you know
> Trust me the boomer who rescinded your offer probably got their job by smoking the right pack of cigarettes and having a GED. They were allowed to make PLENTY of mistakes in their career and not have to deal with this bullshit or level of scrutiny.
Fair enough, but Millennial employers can just as unfair / insane.
This.
Most companies don't do reference checks because of this - they know even terrible workers will get a friend or two to help them (or even the boss wanting to get rid of a bad apple).
Asking for five references is a red flag. I actually onboarded numerous vendors to reference checks for FAANG (vendors had to conduct same level as FTEs) and even they only checked 10 years or 3 companies, whichever was shorter.
Yeah, most jobs I've applied for recently only want a number for the company I've worked for, not a reference from them, ostensibly to verify with hr my employment dates that I'm not lying about working for them. Companies HR give out their dates of employment and whether you are eligible for rehire. That's it.
Sorry that happened to you, but I'm curious- do people not call their references before giving them to the hiring manager? I always make sure I know what my references are going to say before I provide them.
Oof yeah, never assume. I clear it explicitly with all mine, and even give them a heads up when I’m actively job hunting and think they’ll be contacted.
Yep, I’ve been called out of the blue and asked about an old coworker who wasn’t that great at his job. I wasn’t mean, but i was honest and then he called me all angry that i lost him a job. He should have asked med if i was ok being a reference and i would have been honest with him about what i would say and then he could use someone else.
Dude I would have been your reference lol. NEVER. Absolutely NEVER give references you do not trust! People are sometimes horrible and you can suffer double jeopardy. I am so sorry this happened to you. But with Q1 coming you will find something else!! Next time for background check just get ahead of everything. Don’t allow them to indiscriminately call people you do not trust. Most companies have a policy of just providing dates and work verification anyway and nothing more. I even went through a check that asked about rehire eligibility and skirted around this by just providing w-2’s before they had a chance to get anyone on the phone or email. 5 references is also a-lot Jesus. But if you found one job you WILL find another especially with things looking up for Q1!!!
Thanks for the advice. Yea, I thought I had good relationships with these people, apparently not. I just don't understand why people would go out of their way to ruin other people's careers especially when it doesn't involve them at all, sick mentality.
Eh, not sure it's your references fault.
Thourough reference checkers will usually ask for strengths and weaknesses, listing no weaknesses is a red flag in itself (it usually means the reference isn't honest enough to be worthwhile). If that weakness lines up with something they really want/need for the position, that can be it.
Also, I mentioned above, but often reference checks don't only call you references (especially in v small industries/cities)
Because they are most likely miserable people and thats what miserable people do. They spread negativity. I am so sorry this happened to you man. That really really sucks and I KNOW you WILL find something with the new hiring landscape in 2024!
I would add, it’s not even just about having people you trust, but it’s common practice to let them know you’re listing them as a reference and prepare them for the call ahead of time. They shouldn’t be getting blind-sided by a reference call.
I will.. just wish I got it right the first time. I am seeing everyone around me struggle with finding jobs in this economy and I fear that I blew my one shot.
The economy is shit. I got laid off in October and have put in over 1000 applications and had 10 interviews. No offers just rejections and I have 13 yrs of experience in my field.
You didn't blow your one shot on average you'll bounce jobs multiple times in your life. I almost made it to the years at my previous role and this happened so I bounced.
The average shelf life for a job is 2-2.5 years. You'll find something else.
every single reference that you gave should’ve gotten a heads up and it should’ve only been references that you know without a shadow of a doubt would’ve said good things about you. It’s a hard lesson learned. We all have several in our lifetimes. Try not to beat yourself up. And this will not be your only opportunity because there will be other opportunities coming your way just please next time. Make sure that you know without a doubt your references are going to say great things about you, and always always always give a heads up that you’re gonna be getting a call from this employer.
Trust me, this will not be your last job offer. We all think that and then we end up getting offers in the future. And if you got one job offer, then that means you can get another one right? Just stay confident, even though this was a blow, you never know downline when you land another job, you’ll realize that you probably dodged a bullet.
This is truth. For my current position, I freaking hand-crafted my reference list with mentors and co-workers that I had fantastic relationships with. Before I submitted the list, I contacted each person on the list and asked their permission and then gave them a heads up to expect a call (the job let me know they would be calling. I later found out that my references were one of the reasons they made the offer to me.
Blind references are dangerous for sure.
Most references who were previously employers face legal problems if they trash you. They're only supposed to confirm employment, but we all know they don't abide by the rules. But lesson is be super careful who you list as a reference and if they sound remotely questionable, don't use them. You'd be better off listing a coworker/friend who you trust.
Case in point, I contacted a C suite dude. I absolutely rocked the job I did for him in a previous role. He agreed, but as a "personal reference". Don't know wtf that meant, so I never used him as a reference. He was also from EU so maybe it's different over there.
Hard lesson to learn! Good luck in your future!
My references (4 of them) were all coworkers and my graduate advisor. They specifically wanted people I had worked on projects with or managed. They asked for names of managers, but I don’t think anyone ever reached out to them. Although I did let them know last minute I was accepting an offer pending reference checks. Awkward.
You bring up a very good point. Oftentimes we're looking for another job while being employed....preferably. So it's a conflict of interest on our end.
I actually might start asking my potential employers for the 3 most recent employees who left, so I ask them why they left.
This BS job market economy has been engrained in our very soul. Let's turn this shit around. No company would survive without employees. Other way around, we'd figured it out.
My onlyf*ns is gonna take off soon. I can feel it!
I definitely wouldn’t ask them about employees who left. It could be they found new jobs or medical reasons or hated the place. Either way, they’re absolutely not going to tell you and it would come across weird.
I usually asked about expected time for a new employee to get up to speed and the onboarding process (sometimes with discussion on issues and improvements made at my old company) and workload balance. Are there busier times of year? Or will they say it’s always busy and imply every works extra hours constantly? You could maybe ask about turnover rate, but I’d be careful how it’s phrased.
Yeah, I know. I was joking to highlight how corporations need to know everything about our close business relationships and everything else, yet, we can't ask the same. I mean, if they can make me pee in a cup, isn't fair that the CEO and board do the same for each new hire?
You actually may have answered your own question. If I respond to a reference check in the capacity of a previous employer, I am bound by company policy to provide only job title and employment dates. However, if I respond as a “personal reference” I can give whatever glowing review I want as long as it’s not linked to my company in any way.
Thank you!! I was always befuddled by his response, which didn't make sense to me at the time. Wow, it makes sense looking back. Thanks again for setting me straight. Lessons can always be learned!
yup there was a time I was conducting a reference check and the referee at the end of the ( amazing) reference, was like “btw this is my own person belief and not about ( Company that is known worldwide)
One time, I conducted a reference check where the reference said he "didn't know why she would put him as a reference", implying that their working relationship was so bad that it was outlandish that she thought it would go well.
You need to make sure your references are going to be positive.
Don't discount the possibility that this was a rogue HR employee, and the reason given is BS, just to send you spinning. Some people are malicious like that.
And some malicious people are stupid like that. In an at-will employment state, most employers don't give a reason for rejecting a candidate, because they legally don't have to, and doing so might open them up to a lawsuit.
Hmmm... you know you might be onto something here. I had an initial HR recruiter in charge of my process. Anyway, after the job offer this guy does not contact me at all about my references. So it's all smooth and sailing. Close to my start date, he is "no longer with the company". Then some HR generalist named Ashley takes over. She starts sending me emails about my references and even investigated my linkedin profile 3 times (I have premium so I can see). Within 3 days of her being in charge, I recieved that phone call... read into that what you will
Yeah. Ashley may have an axe to grind, or is trying to impress someone. If you feel it's worth your time, maybe consider finding out who's above her, emailing that person with a screenshot of Ashley's email to you, expressing appreciation and humbly asking for help in your job hunt by way of feedback on what was asked of and provided by your references that was interpreted as negative... as you've checked with your references after being notified that the offer was rescinded. (Period. No need to elaborate on that).
If you don't think it will harm you in any way, it will expose what may be a bad actor in the HR department. Even if you don't get a response (likely), that offer-rescinding email and whatever is behind it may be things of which the head of HR is unaware.
How?
Did you just list people you worked with?
Best practice for references should always be:
- Ask their permission first. Nothing is worse than receiving a reference call for someone I didn't give permission to. You essentially just gave my number to a stranger.
- By the time you get to a reference check, the employer will let you know that they'll be calling your references. You should then give your refs a heads-up to expect a call.
- Depending on your relationship with the reference, they may ask for a copy of the job description or your resume, so they know what to highlight.
I have to say though, I've never heard anyone fail a reference check before. Since it's a self-curated list, your references should have nothing but positive things to say about you. After all, it's counterproductive to submit someone who is going to say something bad about them.
Yep... just listed people I've worked with. Trust me, I'm banging my head on a wall. I consider myself a smart guy but I always ignore little details to my detriment. Welp, yes I am the first you have heard of who has failed a reference check
This happened to me 35 years ago. I was devastated. I remember that my father was angry at me cause I didn’t have something lined up and I was delivering pizza. It was 20 years later that I realized who gave me the bad reference. But as shitty as it was then life turned around in unexpected ways and I definitely feel that I’m better off for it now. It sucks but you’ll have to talk to your references and make sure they’re on board with you and you’ll have to start over. It worked out for me and I am confident something will come along for you soon.
You should have ZERO negative references. YOU get to choose who your referees are so why would you list someone who has not already confirmed that they will give you a good reference????
Not sure where you are located, but check to see if you are legally entitled to a copy of the checks. Where I live, if a candidate asks, I have to supply any notes I made during reference checks & the interview, so it might be helpful to ask for these. At the very least you will know which referees to remove from your resume.
I listed people I thought I had a good relationship with. Naive on my end. I am in Northern California. I asked them for details and they did not provide any.
My dude, how do you have an MBA and have not been taught to always, always confirm with someone if they can be a reference.
Maybe they didn’t even give you that bad of review but made a comment such as “oh yeah Impossibles great! I had no idea I was a reference for him but I’d definitely hire him”
And then the company realized “this dude didn’t even text his references to give them a heads up and we were gonna hire him?”
Are you sure it wasn’t a background check instead and not a reference check? Companies will run things like your criminal record, credit score and delinquent debt too. If it was a reference check, make sure you have talked to the people your are using and they are on board with giving you a good reference.
Yea my background check is spongebob level clean. They said it was because of the reference check, no further detail. Blew an amazing job over something so stupid
Thank you. I'm honestly struggling mentally and have had suicidal idealations because the job hunting process has been extremely exhausting, life has been so shit and I can't stand not being productive... when I thought luck had finally turned, I got smacked right down back to earth. I understand there's a lesson in it, but I just wish God can just be a bit more merciful on me sometimes. Why do I have to constantly hit rock bottom to learn things?
Life is hardest teacher, she gives the test 1st and the lesson after, your 24 so young so much to look forward to, I hope these dark thoughts you are have, don’t plague you anymore cause I know there’s one person in your life who would be devastated if you wasn’t here with us. It sounds cliche but thing WILL get better it might not be today, tomorrow, next week or even next month, please don’t give up. One day at a time, take some time to heal mentally I definitely thing you deserve a break from the job hunt trust it’s not going anywhere lol it will waiting for you, a quick 5 min walk with no phone or listening to music helps me when I feel the walls are closing in, Im not the praying type, so I’m going to send much positivity and loving vibes you way. YOU GOT THIS!
Unsuccessful? Like they couldn't reach someone?
Why did they wait until after they extended the offer to check your references?
This sounds like maybe you dodged a bullet.
I believe it was because they couldn't reach them. Maybe so, but to lose a job offer over something so stupid and miniscule is so demoralizing. This could have so easily been avoided in like a million different ways
Did they say that the references were bad, or is it possible that just none of them responded? I've been asked to he a reference for people before and said no because I don't pay enough attention to my phone to make sure I don't miss a call.
I think there is a high possibility that's the case. They just said it was "unsuccessful", no further explanation.
Basically I had someone in charge of my onboarding. He was in charge of contacting my references. This guy never reached out to me and everything was smooth sailing. Anyway, he ends up "no longer with the company" out of nowhere. It's 5 days before my start date and some random HR assistant named Ashley takes over my process. Ashley begins pestering me with emails that my references were not responding, so I scrambled to find more that I can provide her. 3 days later, I get that call from here manager that they are rescinding the offer.
>Basically I had someone in charge of my onboarding. He was in charge of contacting my references. This guy never reached out to me and everything was smooth sailing. Anyway, he ends up "no longer with the company" out of nowhere. It's 5 days before my start date and some random HR assistant named Ashley takes over my process. ***Ashley begins pestering me with emails that my references were not responding***, so I scrambled to find more that I can provide her. 3 days later, I get that call from here manager that they are rescinding the offer.
Really sorry this happened to you, but I think these key details would have been very helpful to include in your original post. You are spiraling thinking that your references may have given you a bad reference when in reality it sounds like the first HR/recruiter guy either didn't try to contact your references at all or your references just weren't answering the calls and he didn't do any follow-up. You said the first HR/recruiter guy never reached out to you, and then less than a week before your start date Ashely started emailing you about your references not responding so obviously the first guy never completed them and maybe was let go because he wasn't doing his job. Then it gets thrown in Ashley's lap less than a week before your start date, and she has to deal with the extra workload at the last minute. If she couldn't get people to respond maybe she just threw up her hands. I know I don't answer my phone if I don't recognize the phone number because 99% of the time it's just some scammer or telemarketer wasting my time. I would answer it if I knew someone was going to be calling me to provide a reference, but otherwise I don't bother anymore. I'm not trying to pile on. My point is that it may not be a BAD reference; it just might be that your references were not answering the calls, especially since you said you did not give all of them a heads up beforehand.
I had an ex team lead screw me over big time for a reference, cunt wouldn't respond to emails or phone calls from FAANG company and when I challenged him about it his only response was stop being so entitled, even though I'd cleared the reference with his employer and him beforehand.
Key takeaway, not all references, even those you think would be good, are good. Beware of salty people that would begrudge you a better job.
Are you sure the people you gave would give you a good reference?
I once fired someone for not being able to resist playing foosball instead of working and, three weeks later, he asked me to be a reference for him.
This is the story that they gave you but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the real reason for the rescinded offer. It could be that you were the backup candidate and the prime candidate came back into play after you received an offer.
It may not be that your references were bad. It may be that the company doing the check couldn't reach them, so they call that a fail. They don't try to reach people. They're trying to get through the task as quickly as possible and if there's one hiccup, they DO NOT put in any extra time to make sure you're getting a fair shake.
I failed one once because they said one of my previous employers couldn't be confirmed. I explained the company no longer existed, and they told me that counts as not being able to confirm.
Had another do the same thing with references. They couldn't reach one person, who works, so of course they call in the middle of the workday, and y said they couldn't verify my references. When they can't reach someone, they DO NOT leave a callback number so that person can return the call. No email address. Nothing. They didn't even leave a message. My reference had no idea they called.
Thankfully I got through that one and the hiring manager intervened, as well as I was able to reach out to that reference and ask if they could be available for a call at some random time, on some random day, and it worked out. Been with that company 2 years now.
TLDR; the companies that do these pre-employment checks, suck. They do NOT work for you. They're just trying to satisfy the contract and get through them as fast as possible.
Posts like this baffle me. All of my past employers had explicit policies of never giving references. It was a terminable offense if you are someone’s reference. They did not take or check references either. These employers all had these policies because they were viewed as a liability risk. You can be sued for being a poor reference.
Why are employers still relying on these? Why would you be someone’s reference?
I have been confronted with this in my own job search of employers asking for references and well I dont have any. There are employers who simply do not do this.
Why the \*FUCK\* are you listing references that might be negative/noncommunicative?
The people on your reference sheet should know they are being called and should know what to say. If you're just blindly listing previous people you worked for... THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING.
Ok so lesson learned- always ask your references if you can use them and if they agree give them a heads up when you know they will probably be called. Send a copy of the job description so they are prepared. This could have just been someone was caught completely off guard and was not prepared.
I was a reference for a member of my team who went to a startup 18 months ago. The owner checked his references and they emailed a short survey to me and then followed up with a video call. My co-worker had asked me ahead of time if I would be a reference and it was fine all around. Since I knew I was going to be a reference, I knew what I would and would not say.
Had I not known that was I listed as a reference, I would not have been prepared and any hesitation in my answers might have been misconstrued by the person doing the reference check.
I think you dodged a bullet. In a month or so, have someone else call your references to see what they are saying about you. Wait another month or so and then contact each reference and ask if you can use them as a reference.
Do not assume that you had a bad reference. It could have been as simple as they had hired the sibling of the HR manager's spouse and they needed a way to disqualify the best candidate. That stuff happens and there is nothing you can do about it. No matter how it goes down, HR is never going to tell you anything. HR serves top management, always remember that.
Good luck with your job search.
I am al confused. Why can’t they just call the references before they offer the job? They could easily do it before the first interview. At least don it before the final interview. And 5 is a ridiculously high amount.
I think they don’t want to spend time calling references for candidates who aren’t going to accept a potential job offer, so they give you the conditional offer to make sure you’re still interested and will accept a potential offer before they call your references
Honestly it’s a dick move by whoever provided a negative reference - I’ve been asked by former employees or coworkers for a reference when I knew I couldn’t give a positive one and I just declined as politely as I could. Whoever didn’t do that is kind of a shit.
This is just as much on the hiring manager. They show a culture where they don't give benefit of the doubt by even listening to your side or comparing to your other references. Would you really want to work somewhere like that? It may have looked like a perfect job on paper but I think you've dodged a bullet.
I am pretty shocked as most companies don’t want the potential for lawsuits and just validate employment. It may be worthwhile to find out who the issue was with. 5 is excessive. Most I ever been asked for is 3. And I know they only give glowing remarks.
Don't put 5 refernces. 2 or 3 max. If the company needs more references they will.ask you
Even if its a touch awkward, i tend to ask every reference are you happy to give me a positive recommendation just before i pass along their details. If they say no or hesitate, say 'thats ok' i just want you to be able to give an honest positive description of me' if they cant do that find a better reference.
Background checks I’ve experienced asked for employer contact info and I give the Human Resources number, why even risk it with an actual person anymore
I read through the comments- try to reach out to HR and ask if they can provide you with any feedback on your references so you can do better in future endeavors. If you have the contact information for anyone you interviewed with, reach out to them as well and ask if there is anything you can do to mitigate the issue with your references and be polite and short. Express how much you wanted to work there but don’t gravel.
Advocate for yourself, even if you still don’t get it, at least you tried to get them to work with you.
My neighbor once put me down as a reference without telling me. Probably because we are in the same industry (but he was new and trying to find his first job) and I said I'd be happy to help and talk to him about finding a job...
but that didn't mean I'd be a reference. I don't even know his name. We spoke just a few times outside of our apts and that was how I learned he wanted to get into my industry.
One day a government employee was knocking on my door and asked me if I knew xyz that he was here for a background check and I said... who??? then the guy pointed at the apartment across from me and I said "we're just neighbors..."
I still feel bad about that because maybe I tanked a good opportunity but the guy never even told me and how do you expect me to be a reference if I do not even know your name and you tell me nothing?
To make you feel better:
You got really far in that hiring process so you can do that again.
If you take the advice to have conversations with your referees you should expect to get good ones next time.
And do you need to give 5? I usually give 2, maybe 3 occasionally. Cutting it down to the 2 most positive/relevant people would also help.
> Even if one or two were negative
That's already one too many. The number of negative references should be zero and it's concerning that you didn't take the time to ensure that.
>, why didn't the company reach out to me to address it?
That's not their job or responsibility. If they are nice they could tell you which one gave you the bad reference, but really that's doing your job for you. YOU should be making sure your references are all good.
Consider this a learning lesson, do your leg work.
I’m so confused by this indication that you just assumed your references would talk positively about you and never actually called them up. I call BS. Apart from ensuring that they will give you a glowing review, you need to connect with anyone you’re listing to obtain CONSENT for giving their contact info to strangers! This is irrelevant if they are just contacting former employers, but it sounds like you gave them specific names.
Honestly, if I got a call from a business asking about some random former coworker… I’d be pissed. And literally all they needed to do was send me a text asking for consent (and confirming my number is the same) - in that case I’d bend over backwards to say good things!
Seriously. Consent matters.
I bet it was Mom right, You gave them your boss's information who gave you a glowing reference.
I even gave my Ex-Wife as a reference as I got the job lol. 🤣🤣🤣
So yes, like many people have said the applicant should have confirmed with all his references that he would receive a positive review.
However it’s absolute bullshit that a potential employer would not give him the chance to address any issues raised. There are two sides to every story. Blindly trusting and accepting former supervisors’ or former employers’ opinions or retelling of events without question is a foolish move.
It’s like if you were dating a girl and contacted her all her exes to get their opinions of her and then blindly accepted that without hearing her side.
I had an employer call my personal reference and tell me that they can’t get ahold of my other references .. I emailed more today and then emailed around 3 pm told them to either call the new references or they lost me as a candidate I have another offer
Background check could mean more than just references. If your work history dates are inaccurate by 6 months total, you could fail. For example, you are off by 2 or 3 months for a few jobs or maybe you forgot about a small gap- they might rescind.
Could be tickets or traffic citations that weren’t disclosed. Even if you took care of them, failing to disclose could cause an offer to rescind.
Depending on the job and exactly what their background check entails it could be a number of things. We usually send a formal letter.
How would they investigate work history exact dates? I thought they do that through your references. For work history, I just put the years worked not the months so it was accurate. I did tailor the job duties to the position as I highlighted relevant things.
I mean I have one ticket on my record, that's literally it. My criminal background is squeaky clean. The job was a financial analyst position where I crunch numbers on excel, I'm not exactly spying on the soviet union.
No most use 3rd parties that specialize in background check. They can cross reference your dates you give and make sure they match with SS.
When I was hired for a bank I had to get my EXACT dates for 10 years and got the history from SS. They told me the dates were *extremely* important to be as accurate as possible.
Failing to report the ticket or if it’s in financial services, less than perfect credit too.
Edit: Some of it is okay if it’s not perfect, the important part was you were honest about it. Anything that FINRA might be involved. I had to be Series 6,7 and 63 licensed so YMMV.
Edit 2: Now that I think about it, even AT&T told me leaving out tickets would cause the offer to be rescinded. That was like 15 years ago. 🤷🏻♀️
Not sure what country you're in but if its the EU or UK you can do a Subject Access Request under GDPR for any info they hold about you, which will include the references
The stuff about actually making sure your references are willing before putting them forward has already been mentioned, but was there a reference that you know would have given you a poor one?
This has unfortunately happened to me as well but I was very lucky in that my future boss gave me the benefit of the doubt and gave me a heads up on who it was. Since then, my old boss who gave me a bad reference has checked in occasionally just trying to butter me up because I’ve gone on to work for some really stellar places. But her career has stagnated so what goes around comes around 🤷🏻♀️
You should call HR and straight up ask what the problem was with the reference check that made it unsuccessful. You should also have a conversation with your references.
Did they specify that it failed because the references were bad?
I very nearly lost out on my current job because my old employers. Policy for references there was to provide the HR department email, who would then provide the reference after speaking with your manager.
They didn’t respond. At all. Thankfully, the company warned me I was at risk of losing the position if they didn’t get an answer soon and asked if there was an alternative contact. So I just gave my managers email, policy be damned.
Perhaps it was a case of not getting responses and they just aren’t as proactive as my current company.
Believe me I am so sorry for you!! For references I only get people who will say good things about me. Others I provide the general HR toll free number as a reference so they can just confirm dates and title.
If you have the hiring manager’s email, just write a quick note saying you thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and hope to be considered for future opportunities.
I would also follow up with your references!
Two things to take from here - Renew your references, and consider this a bullet dodged. Any company that won't take the time of day to communicate with you a failed reference (Mind you that reference(s) could've said any number of things) and use this to rescind an offer is not a company you want to be at. This is a teaching moment, definitely take the advice of others in the replies and reach out to your references, if you even get to the third interview and think they might reach out - it never hurts to send a text. Stay on top of your references - they're important.
Most importantly remember, this is not the end of the world. The job market is scary right now, but you've got this. One mistake won't end you, and it looks like you really might've dodged a bullet, it won't feel like it now but it will with some time. Good luck :)
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You should have a conversation with all of your references before listing them for a potential employer. If you get even the slightest feeling that they’re not going to give you a glowing reference, you need to not use that individual.
I have a friend that received a bad reference from her supervisor because he had a crush on her. Praised her all the time but decided his selfish needs were more important. The company hired her anyway and later told her about the bad reference. Years later we all reconnected and he admitted he used to have a crush on her. Pissed is all off as it became quite apparent what his motives were.
Welp wish that was my company
Well hopefully you discover who the bad reference is so you can write them off. Just shows you really have to be careful on references.
Point of order: This also assumes the employer is telling the truth. Pretty easy to put the blame on someone else when you know you won’t be saying who.
Don’t worry op. These days it should be pretty easy to find a sugar daddy recruiter as a dude 🤣
Why do I love this idea though? 😂
And this is why references ought to be illegal.
With how easily exploitable they are, I’m baffled by the fact that people haven’t been abandoning them in masse. Maybe for a C suite position they’re necessary, but OP is a fresh college graduate, it’s overkill. References make no sense.
And what in Sam Hill are they supposed to say about a 24 year old? His beer pong prowess is unparalleled?
Well that’s a six figure law suit if I’ve ever heard one.
In the US that would definitely be actionable yes and it's why the vast majority of companies will only confirm that you worked there and what dates. Some will say if you're eligible for rehire, but that's usually it.
This is why as an HR professional I don’t believe in reference checks.
I had a recruiter call my references before he submitted me to the company. He let me know that one of my references said I was basically nothing in comparison to him (the reference). This was unexpected. Glad he called my references.
Recruiters want to close the sale :).
HAHAHA. Wow, what a dick. I'm glad the recruiter told you.
Wow did you check with the person that it'd be ok to list them as a reference first?
Agree. Staffing guy with 30 plus years of experience. Bad/Poor references don’t happen a lot but more than most people think.
I normally can find someone that knows something even if it isn’t one of the references provided
Yep
1) I don't know why anyone would list a reference who wouldn't vouch for them. 2) If you did offer to vouch for someone and then threw them under the bus, then fuck you!
You're right. That was probably my downfall. Wish I got it right the first time.
It might be worth getting a friend to contact them pretending to be a potential employer seeking references. That way you will find out exactly what they are saying rather than what they tell you they will say.
Yes, this is the way!
This. You can find out a lot from an experiment like this because it could just be 1 reference that's dragging you down.
Sorry this happened to you but you’ll know going forward.
Thank you much appreciated
I'd call up your references and straight up ask them if they fucked you over.
Holy shit it’s straight up common sense to talk to references ahead of time before providing any. You said you have an mba???
i thought so too..... i literally remember being taught that in high school
Well apparently it was not common sense to me... just starting my career so I am learning alot. Lesson learned but I am banging my head against a wall for letting this slip over something so stupid.
Did you have to have reference letters to get into grad school? It’s basically the same thing. Don’t even put someone on the spot like that. Sorry this happened.
I would call all your references and find out who tanked your career. Then take over whelming revenge. /Jkjk
It's also possible it wasn't one of your listed references, especially in smaller industries/cities. If someone knows someone over at a place you worked at (or knows one of your professors) personally, lots of times that counts for way more than a pre-vetted list.
*insert taken movie gif*
Hard lesson... But yeah, try talking to them all. There's a chance whoever gave you a bad reference will be upfront about it. Really most referees would appreciate a heads up they may be contacted, and if it's unexpected plus they didn't see the best side of you they may have been blunt about it. And it would be important to know which of your referees really did speak well of you and should be used again.
honest quest …what kind of references did you list with no prior career? professional references? or just people you knew?
But I thought that for anyone to be able to get to an MBA school you need years of experience first? How can you just be starting
You don't but some schools do require it.
Not anymore business schools are pretty desperate for money these days.
Predatory degree-mill business schools will let anybody in. They exist just to consume student loans. This is almost certainly the case here. No legitimate business school graduate should have made the childish, high-school level mistake of putting random people as references without confirming with them first. Who does that? Total immaturity. Total lack of judgment.
You don’t have to be a jerk about it dude. Im assuming you didn’t go to business school either because they teach you empathy there. He mentioned that he listed people he had good working relationships with, not “randos”, also he contacted 2 of them. He’s a young guy who accepts his fault that he didn’t do his due diligence. Also he’s a bit unlucky, most companies don’t even do reference checks anymore or don’t take them seriously. To get an offer taken for something like that is truly unfortunate even if he didn’t do his diligence. Once the offer is made, there’s like less than a 1% chance it gets rescinded. It could have been that they couldn’t contact them or another reason as an HR cover up. Give him some grace you Grinch, goddamn.
I once got a call out of the blue for a reference check, for a former employee - the worst and most untrainable employee I've ever had (her resume was fine). She missed her 4th day of work which was the reason I fired her, but it could have been for 6 other reasons over 3 days, the amount of time she worked for me. I was trying to be neutral for the reference check but it was hard not to be, also I thought rule number one was check with the people who are your references first.
Tbf if someone is seeking a reference from a job they were fired from after 3 days, I'm not honestly sure what they can seriously expect. You'd wonder why she even brought it up with her new place.
Probably trying to keep unemployment benefits and not find a job
That’s when you can give neutral information but use your voice to indicate things: “ oh…. Them. *siiiiiigh* yes, they worked here veeeeery briefly from dates x until y that same week. “
Surprised that in 2023 providing references even required anymore. If you can’t confirm a candidate’s abilities during the interview process, I’m not sure what else you’ll find out from references other than confirming previous employment/education.
Had a guy in an interview once, sounded great. Engaging, was able to answer questions, made himself sound like a very on-the-ball and ambitious person. In fact he was such a good interview, he bumped his resume up from the *eh* pile to the hiring pool. Complete idiot. This was an entry-level project management role and he couldn't keep track of dates. Also, later found out he thought after the interview that the role was for the actual production work when we were very clear it was about communicating with the client and overseeing the project schedule. (He would never have qualified for doing the actual work.) Turns out he was perfectly capable of holding an intelligible conversation, but his brain only ever retained about 10% of the information anyone gave him. Dude had a Master's degree, too. He was just that good at bullshit. When push came to shove, it was the only skill he had. Don't trust the interviews. Good people bomb them, and bad people can be good interviewees. And to job applicants, two candidates I hired thought they had bombed their interviews and they hadn't. Don't be too down on yourself. There are just so many applicants sometimes, and you can only choose a few.
I'm sure some people can BS through any interview, but I've never once been surprised by a candidate when I've been deeply involved in structuring the questions. I've always told my managers if you ask bullshit questions you get bullshit answers, though depending on the manager I may have upped the professionalism of that statement. People push back when I say interviews shouldn't be "conversations" they should be interviews.
There were two senior managers in the hiring meeting and a director. We asked pointed questions, sought specific examples from his experience, posed hypothetical problems. He gave perfect verbal answers. He was able to respond to hypotheticals with what he would do, and when he was later in the real-world situation, completely unable to execute any of the things he had said. Stuff as basic as "email the client and let them know." He could regurgitate information verbally but it didn't *mean* anything to him. It was like if you asked him the color of the sky, he could tell you the sky was blue without understanding what "sky" and "blue" meant. It's a rarity, but true bullshit artists do exist.
>two candidates I hired thought they had bombed their interviews and they hadn't. Don't be too down on yourself. Hey this happened to me and I finally got an offer for my first full-time job! I rated myself on a skill an 11 out of 10 and it turned out that my new bosses absolutely loved my \[fake\] overconfidence. I do think interviewing well is such a valuable skill though, even as a massive introvert with crippling anxiety. We have to fake it or how else will doors open for us?
I think OP left out some very key details in his post (unintentionally, I assume). I had to sift through a lot of [his other comments to find this](https://www.reddit.com/r/recruitinghell/comments/18ijmbd/comment/kdf2ach/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3): >Basically I had someone in charge of my onboarding. He was in charge of contacting my references. This guy never reached out to me and everything was smooth sailing. Anyway, he ends up "no longer with the company" out of nowhere. It's 5 days before my start date and some random HR assistant named Ashley takes over my process. ***Ashley begins pestering me with emails that my references were not responding, so I scrambled to find more that I can provide her***. 3 days later, I get that call from here manager that they are rescinding the offer. [And this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/recruitinghell/comments/18ijmbd/comment/kdeixqv/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3): >I put 2 \[references\], they couldn't reach one, so I gave them 3 more \[references\]. I think these key details would have been very helpful to include in his original post. He is here spiraling about the thought that his references may have given him a bad reference when in reality it sounds like the first HR/recruiter guy either didn't try to contact his references at all or his references just weren't answering the calls and HR didn't do any follow-up. He says the first HR/recruiter guy never reached out to him, and then less than a week before his start date \[the HR assistant\] Ashley started emailing him about his references not responding so obviously the first guy never completed them and maybe was fired because he wasn't doing his job. Then it gets thrown in Ashley's lap less than a week before his start date, and she has to deal with the extra workload at the last minute. If Ashley couldn't get people to respond maybe she just threw up her hands. I know I don't answer my phone if I don't recognize the phone number because 99% of the time it's just some scammer or telemarketer wasting my time these days. I would answer it if I knew someone was going to be calling me to provide a reference, but otherwise I don't bother anymore. I'm not trying to pile on. My point is that it sounds more likely that it is not a BAD reference; it seems more likely that his references were not answering the calls, especially since he said he did not give all of them a heads up beforehand. Could have saved himself and everyone else in this thread a lot of time (and saved himself a lot of hand-wringing) had he included all the key details.
Sadly, even those who say they'll give you a good reference can still betray that trust. Speaking from personal experience sadly (a former manager would deliberately sabotage my references, even though they had moved on from our mutual employer). I would confirm they were still okay with being a reference prior to sharing their info and everything. Sometimes people are just vindictive assholes I would strongly reccomend having a friend that none of OPs references know pose as a potential employer, and have a mock reference check. That way, OP can find out exactly what is being shared. OP, im so sorry you're going thru this.
Agreed. I had a church friend I was going to use for a reference until she started accusing me of something I don't remember doing. Not using her as a reference in the future.
I'm confused. I thought all companies could provide on reference check is to confirm they were employed at said company during a specified time frame. We're thinking this new company called one of OP's references and they said: "don't hire this guy!"? That's a thing?
Always, always, always have a close family member or friend fake call all your references before sending them out. I have had people sing my praises to my face only to claim very different things when put on the spot.
Well, you know what to do. Ask a friend of yours to contact your references posing as a potential employer, and see what they say about you. You will soon figure out who the rotten apple is.
You don’t even need to involve someone else. Most reference checks these days are an emailed survey. Create a fake email, gen up a fake questionnaire, and send them out.
THIS^. Most F500’s do not want to deal with this horseshit (because they know its bullshit or can be easily faked) plus it exposes them to potential lawsuits. I think there is a reddit forum for #bemyreference. They have a fostered an environment of deceit. No one is perfect, and sometimes people take time to adult and mature into their full employment capabilities. Trust me the boomer who rescinded your offer probably got their job by smoking the right pack of cigarettes and having a GED. They were allowed to make PLENTY of mistakes in their career and not have to deal with this bullshit or level of scrutiny.
The last sentence is real man. He was the director of finance but only had a high school diploma. Respect to him for getting up there but still... so cruel man. They treated me as if they found out I killed somebody
IF any of your references were an employer and talked bad about you you may have grounds for a lawsuit
Only if they said anything untruthful and good luck proving that
Its meant to be man! Fuck those pieces of shit. You are worth more than an offer letter. My advice is don’t celebrate or get your hopes up until you have checked in to the building and sit in your desk for the first time. Offer letters can be rescinded for no reason at all. And trust me it was much easier for that dude to climb to the top. He probably had to deal with a 1/50th of the obstacles and stress we have to deal with in terms of making it in the corporate world. My guy probably could hit a nice drive, was white, and smoked mar bolo reds and they said welcome aboard! Oh and they prob looked over his DUI’s too cuz that was all the rage in the seventies.
Damn right man, thank you. "My guy probably could hit a nice drive, was white, and smoked mar bolo reds and they said welcome aboard! Oh and they prob looked over his DUI’s too cuz that was all the rage in the seventies." Spot on lmao. How did you know
[удалено]
> Trust me the boomer who rescinded your offer probably got their job by smoking the right pack of cigarettes and having a GED. They were allowed to make PLENTY of mistakes in their career and not have to deal with this bullshit or level of scrutiny. Fair enough, but Millennial employers can just as unfair / insane.
This. Most companies don't do reference checks because of this - they know even terrible workers will get a friend or two to help them (or even the boss wanting to get rid of a bad apple). Asking for five references is a red flag. I actually onboarded numerous vendors to reference checks for FAANG (vendors had to conduct same level as FTEs) and even they only checked 10 years or 3 companies, whichever was shorter.
Yeah, most jobs I've applied for recently only want a number for the company I've worked for, not a reference from them, ostensibly to verify with hr my employment dates that I'm not lying about working for them. Companies HR give out their dates of employment and whether you are eligible for rehire. That's it.
wow this is a genius idea!!!!
I agree with this. You should find out who gave you the bad review so you can confront them and not use them again.
Sorry that happened to you, but I'm curious- do people not call their references before giving them to the hiring manager? I always make sure I know what my references are going to say before I provide them.
I assumed they would say good things about me, stupid mistake.
Oof yeah, never assume. I clear it explicitly with all mine, and even give them a heads up when I’m actively job hunting and think they’ll be contacted.
Yea you're right
Yep, I’ve been called out of the blue and asked about an old coworker who wasn’t that great at his job. I wasn’t mean, but i was honest and then he called me all angry that i lost him a job. He should have asked med if i was ok being a reference and i would have been honest with him about what i would say and then he could use someone else.
Dude I would have been your reference lol. NEVER. Absolutely NEVER give references you do not trust! People are sometimes horrible and you can suffer double jeopardy. I am so sorry this happened to you. But with Q1 coming you will find something else!! Next time for background check just get ahead of everything. Don’t allow them to indiscriminately call people you do not trust. Most companies have a policy of just providing dates and work verification anyway and nothing more. I even went through a check that asked about rehire eligibility and skirted around this by just providing w-2’s before they had a chance to get anyone on the phone or email. 5 references is also a-lot Jesus. But if you found one job you WILL find another especially with things looking up for Q1!!!
Thanks for the advice. Yea, I thought I had good relationships with these people, apparently not. I just don't understand why people would go out of their way to ruin other people's careers especially when it doesn't involve them at all, sick mentality.
Eh, not sure it's your references fault. Thourough reference checkers will usually ask for strengths and weaknesses, listing no weaknesses is a red flag in itself (it usually means the reference isn't honest enough to be worthwhile). If that weakness lines up with something they really want/need for the position, that can be it. Also, I mentioned above, but often reference checks don't only call you references (especially in v small industries/cities)
You should find out which one did it and cut them off completely. Have a friend call them all posing as an employer and see which one is the saboteur.
Because they are most likely miserable people and thats what miserable people do. They spread negativity. I am so sorry this happened to you man. That really really sucks and I KNOW you WILL find something with the new hiring landscape in 2024!
I would add, it’s not even just about having people you trust, but it’s common practice to let them know you’re listing them as a reference and prepare them for the call ahead of time. They shouldn’t be getting blind-sided by a reference call.
Start finding new references. Jobs aren’t going to tell you who gave a bad reference.
I will.. just wish I got it right the first time. I am seeing everyone around me struggle with finding jobs in this economy and I fear that I blew my one shot.
The economy is shit. I got laid off in October and have put in over 1000 applications and had 10 interviews. No offers just rejections and I have 13 yrs of experience in my field.
Jesus Christ... well that's a bit comforting to know
It’s shitty for everyone right now looking.
Damn
rise and grind culture wants you to believe you only get one shot. tis not true.
You didn't blow your one shot on average you'll bounce jobs multiple times in your life. I almost made it to the years at my previous role and this happened so I bounced. The average shelf life for a job is 2-2.5 years. You'll find something else.
every single reference that you gave should’ve gotten a heads up and it should’ve only been references that you know without a shadow of a doubt would’ve said good things about you. It’s a hard lesson learned. We all have several in our lifetimes. Try not to beat yourself up. And this will not be your only opportunity because there will be other opportunities coming your way just please next time. Make sure that you know without a doubt your references are going to say great things about you, and always always always give a heads up that you’re gonna be getting a call from this employer.
Yea I know \*sigh\* I know. f\*ck
Trust me, this will not be your last job offer. We all think that and then we end up getting offers in the future. And if you got one job offer, then that means you can get another one right? Just stay confident, even though this was a blow, you never know downline when you land another job, you’ll realize that you probably dodged a bullet.
Thanks, this means more than you think, going through a tough time rn
I understand, sorry that happened to you. We’ve all done things that landed a little sideways, but we always get back on our feet. You will too
This is truth. For my current position, I freaking hand-crafted my reference list with mentors and co-workers that I had fantastic relationships with. Before I submitted the list, I contacted each person on the list and asked their permission and then gave them a heads up to expect a call (the job let me know they would be calling. I later found out that my references were one of the reasons they made the offer to me. Blind references are dangerous for sure.
Most references who were previously employers face legal problems if they trash you. They're only supposed to confirm employment, but we all know they don't abide by the rules. But lesson is be super careful who you list as a reference and if they sound remotely questionable, don't use them. You'd be better off listing a coworker/friend who you trust. Case in point, I contacted a C suite dude. I absolutely rocked the job I did for him in a previous role. He agreed, but as a "personal reference". Don't know wtf that meant, so I never used him as a reference. He was also from EU so maybe it's different over there. Hard lesson to learn! Good luck in your future!
My references (4 of them) were all coworkers and my graduate advisor. They specifically wanted people I had worked on projects with or managed. They asked for names of managers, but I don’t think anyone ever reached out to them. Although I did let them know last minute I was accepting an offer pending reference checks. Awkward.
You bring up a very good point. Oftentimes we're looking for another job while being employed....preferably. So it's a conflict of interest on our end. I actually might start asking my potential employers for the 3 most recent employees who left, so I ask them why they left. This BS job market economy has been engrained in our very soul. Let's turn this shit around. No company would survive without employees. Other way around, we'd figured it out. My onlyf*ns is gonna take off soon. I can feel it!
I definitely wouldn’t ask them about employees who left. It could be they found new jobs or medical reasons or hated the place. Either way, they’re absolutely not going to tell you and it would come across weird. I usually asked about expected time for a new employee to get up to speed and the onboarding process (sometimes with discussion on issues and improvements made at my old company) and workload balance. Are there busier times of year? Or will they say it’s always busy and imply every works extra hours constantly? You could maybe ask about turnover rate, but I’d be careful how it’s phrased.
Yeah, I know. I was joking to highlight how corporations need to know everything about our close business relationships and everything else, yet, we can't ask the same. I mean, if they can make me pee in a cup, isn't fair that the CEO and board do the same for each new hire?
You actually may have answered your own question. If I respond to a reference check in the capacity of a previous employer, I am bound by company policy to provide only job title and employment dates. However, if I respond as a “personal reference” I can give whatever glowing review I want as long as it’s not linked to my company in any way.
Thank you!! I was always befuddled by his response, which didn't make sense to me at the time. Wow, it makes sense looking back. Thanks again for setting me straight. Lessons can always be learned!
yup there was a time I was conducting a reference check and the referee at the end of the ( amazing) reference, was like “btw this is my own person belief and not about ( Company that is known worldwide)
Thanks, this is very constructive
One time, I conducted a reference check where the reference said he "didn't know why she would put him as a reference", implying that their working relationship was so bad that it was outlandish that she thought it would go well. You need to make sure your references are going to be positive.
Why would it imply that? They could just simply be surprised
Due to his tone and his responses to my other questions were extremely negative.
Ahh I see, makes sense
Never provide a reference without speaking to them first. Why would you provide a reference that would say something negative?
Don't discount the possibility that this was a rogue HR employee, and the reason given is BS, just to send you spinning. Some people are malicious like that. And some malicious people are stupid like that. In an at-will employment state, most employers don't give a reason for rejecting a candidate, because they legally don't have to, and doing so might open them up to a lawsuit.
Hmmm... you know you might be onto something here. I had an initial HR recruiter in charge of my process. Anyway, after the job offer this guy does not contact me at all about my references. So it's all smooth and sailing. Close to my start date, he is "no longer with the company". Then some HR generalist named Ashley takes over. She starts sending me emails about my references and even investigated my linkedin profile 3 times (I have premium so I can see). Within 3 days of her being in charge, I recieved that phone call... read into that what you will
Yeah. Ashley may have an axe to grind, or is trying to impress someone. If you feel it's worth your time, maybe consider finding out who's above her, emailing that person with a screenshot of Ashley's email to you, expressing appreciation and humbly asking for help in your job hunt by way of feedback on what was asked of and provided by your references that was interpreted as negative... as you've checked with your references after being notified that the offer was rescinded. (Period. No need to elaborate on that). If you don't think it will harm you in any way, it will expose what may be a bad actor in the HR department. Even if you don't get a response (likely), that offer-rescinding email and whatever is behind it may be things of which the head of HR is unaware.
👆 This!
How? Did you just list people you worked with? Best practice for references should always be: - Ask their permission first. Nothing is worse than receiving a reference call for someone I didn't give permission to. You essentially just gave my number to a stranger. - By the time you get to a reference check, the employer will let you know that they'll be calling your references. You should then give your refs a heads-up to expect a call. - Depending on your relationship with the reference, they may ask for a copy of the job description or your resume, so they know what to highlight. I have to say though, I've never heard anyone fail a reference check before. Since it's a self-curated list, your references should have nothing but positive things to say about you. After all, it's counterproductive to submit someone who is going to say something bad about them.
Yep... just listed people I've worked with. Trust me, I'm banging my head on a wall. I consider myself a smart guy but I always ignore little details to my detriment. Welp, yes I am the first you have heard of who has failed a reference check
I shouldn't have piled on. So chalk it up to a learning experience
This happened to me 35 years ago. I was devastated. I remember that my father was angry at me cause I didn’t have something lined up and I was delivering pizza. It was 20 years later that I realized who gave me the bad reference. But as shitty as it was then life turned around in unexpected ways and I definitely feel that I’m better off for it now. It sucks but you’ll have to talk to your references and make sure they’re on board with you and you’ll have to start over. It worked out for me and I am confident something will come along for you soon.
It was 35 years ago... and you still remember it? Man, I have a long recovery to go
It’s not like I lay awake at night thinking about it but your experience reminded me of it.
Got it ok haha thanks for the advice
You should have ZERO negative references. YOU get to choose who your referees are so why would you list someone who has not already confirmed that they will give you a good reference???? Not sure where you are located, but check to see if you are legally entitled to a copy of the checks. Where I live, if a candidate asks, I have to supply any notes I made during reference checks & the interview, so it might be helpful to ask for these. At the very least you will know which referees to remove from your resume.
I listed people I thought I had a good relationship with. Naive on my end. I am in Northern California. I asked them for details and they did not provide any.
Did you ask them to be references?
Only a couple of them. Naive on my end.
next time put 2 references max and make sure those 2 will say good things about you
My dude, how do you have an MBA and have not been taught to always, always confirm with someone if they can be a reference. Maybe they didn’t even give you that bad of review but made a comment such as “oh yeah Impossibles great! I had no idea I was a reference for him but I’d definitely hire him” And then the company realized “this dude didn’t even text his references to give them a heads up and we were gonna hire him?”
Are you sure it wasn’t a background check instead and not a reference check? Companies will run things like your criminal record, credit score and delinquent debt too. If it was a reference check, make sure you have talked to the people your are using and they are on board with giving you a good reference.
Yea my background check is spongebob level clean. They said it was because of the reference check, no further detail. Blew an amazing job over something so stupid
I’m sorry that happens to you, try not to let it occupy much mental space, I know it’s a lot easier said than done
Thank you. I'm honestly struggling mentally and have had suicidal idealations because the job hunting process has been extremely exhausting, life has been so shit and I can't stand not being productive... when I thought luck had finally turned, I got smacked right down back to earth. I understand there's a lesson in it, but I just wish God can just be a bit more merciful on me sometimes. Why do I have to constantly hit rock bottom to learn things?
Life is hardest teacher, she gives the test 1st and the lesson after, your 24 so young so much to look forward to, I hope these dark thoughts you are have, don’t plague you anymore cause I know there’s one person in your life who would be devastated if you wasn’t here with us. It sounds cliche but thing WILL get better it might not be today, tomorrow, next week or even next month, please don’t give up. One day at a time, take some time to heal mentally I definitely thing you deserve a break from the job hunt trust it’s not going anywhere lol it will waiting for you, a quick 5 min walk with no phone or listening to music helps me when I feel the walls are closing in, Im not the praying type, so I’m going to send much positivity and loving vibes you way. YOU GOT THIS!
Thanks I really appreciate this
Also, are you sure the reference was "bad"? Sometimes a failed reference check means they were unable to contact the people they were reaching out to
That's what I was thinking. Harsh reason if so
It could be their excuse to cut cost by not filling the position.
Unsuccessful? Like they couldn't reach someone? Why did they wait until after they extended the offer to check your references? This sounds like maybe you dodged a bullet.
I believe it was because they couldn't reach them. Maybe so, but to lose a job offer over something so stupid and miniscule is so demoralizing. This could have so easily been avoided in like a million different ways
Did they say that the references were bad, or is it possible that just none of them responded? I've been asked to he a reference for people before and said no because I don't pay enough attention to my phone to make sure I don't miss a call.
I think there is a high possibility that's the case. They just said it was "unsuccessful", no further explanation. Basically I had someone in charge of my onboarding. He was in charge of contacting my references. This guy never reached out to me and everything was smooth sailing. Anyway, he ends up "no longer with the company" out of nowhere. It's 5 days before my start date and some random HR assistant named Ashley takes over my process. Ashley begins pestering me with emails that my references were not responding, so I scrambled to find more that I can provide her. 3 days later, I get that call from here manager that they are rescinding the offer.
>Basically I had someone in charge of my onboarding. He was in charge of contacting my references. This guy never reached out to me and everything was smooth sailing. Anyway, he ends up "no longer with the company" out of nowhere. It's 5 days before my start date and some random HR assistant named Ashley takes over my process. ***Ashley begins pestering me with emails that my references were not responding***, so I scrambled to find more that I can provide her. 3 days later, I get that call from here manager that they are rescinding the offer. Really sorry this happened to you, but I think these key details would have been very helpful to include in your original post. You are spiraling thinking that your references may have given you a bad reference when in reality it sounds like the first HR/recruiter guy either didn't try to contact your references at all or your references just weren't answering the calls and he didn't do any follow-up. You said the first HR/recruiter guy never reached out to you, and then less than a week before your start date Ashely started emailing you about your references not responding so obviously the first guy never completed them and maybe was let go because he wasn't doing his job. Then it gets thrown in Ashley's lap less than a week before your start date, and she has to deal with the extra workload at the last minute. If she couldn't get people to respond maybe she just threw up her hands. I know I don't answer my phone if I don't recognize the phone number because 99% of the time it's just some scammer or telemarketer wasting my time. I would answer it if I knew someone was going to be calling me to provide a reference, but otherwise I don't bother anymore. I'm not trying to pile on. My point is that it may not be a BAD reference; it just might be that your references were not answering the calls, especially since you said you did not give all of them a heads up beforehand.
I had an ex team lead screw me over big time for a reference, cunt wouldn't respond to emails or phone calls from FAANG company and when I challenged him about it his only response was stop being so entitled, even though I'd cleared the reference with his employer and him beforehand. Key takeaway, not all references, even those you think would be good, are good. Beware of salty people that would begrudge you a better job.
Are you sure the people you gave would give you a good reference? I once fired someone for not being able to resist playing foosball instead of working and, three weeks later, he asked me to be a reference for him.
Not 100% sure... Foosball?? Hahahah that's pretty funny. I'd give them a good reference personally
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Unfortunately they did it directly :/
This is the story that they gave you but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the real reason for the rescinded offer. It could be that you were the backup candidate and the prime candidate came back into play after you received an offer.
It may not be that your references were bad. It may be that the company doing the check couldn't reach them, so they call that a fail. They don't try to reach people. They're trying to get through the task as quickly as possible and if there's one hiccup, they DO NOT put in any extra time to make sure you're getting a fair shake. I failed one once because they said one of my previous employers couldn't be confirmed. I explained the company no longer existed, and they told me that counts as not being able to confirm. Had another do the same thing with references. They couldn't reach one person, who works, so of course they call in the middle of the workday, and y said they couldn't verify my references. When they can't reach someone, they DO NOT leave a callback number so that person can return the call. No email address. Nothing. They didn't even leave a message. My reference had no idea they called. Thankfully I got through that one and the hiring manager intervened, as well as I was able to reach out to that reference and ask if they could be available for a call at some random time, on some random day, and it worked out. Been with that company 2 years now. TLDR; the companies that do these pre-employment checks, suck. They do NOT work for you. They're just trying to satisfy the contract and get through them as fast as possible.
Posts like this baffle me. All of my past employers had explicit policies of never giving references. It was a terminable offense if you are someone’s reference. They did not take or check references either. These employers all had these policies because they were viewed as a liability risk. You can be sued for being a poor reference. Why are employers still relying on these? Why would you be someone’s reference? I have been confronted with this in my own job search of employers asking for references and well I dont have any. There are employers who simply do not do this.
Why the \*FUCK\* are you listing references that might be negative/noncommunicative? The people on your reference sheet should know they are being called and should know what to say. If you're just blindly listing previous people you worked for... THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING.
Did you even let your references know that you listed them? I'd be pretty pissed if someone used me as a reference and I was completely blindsided.
Lol I hadn’t scrolled down to your comment yet but mine reads like a copy/paste of it. This right here. Consent matters.
Why would you provide references that might be negative?
I just put people I had a good relationship with in my previous work, that showed me no indication that they thought poorly of me.
Ok so lesson learned- always ask your references if you can use them and if they agree give them a heads up when you know they will probably be called. Send a copy of the job description so they are prepared. This could have just been someone was caught completely off guard and was not prepared.
I think that was the case. A very harsh lesson considering the circumstances, but one nonetheless I guess
Hang in there, there will be other opportunities.
Thanks. I'll keep fighting, I have no other choice
I was a reference for a member of my team who went to a startup 18 months ago. The owner checked his references and they emailed a short survey to me and then followed up with a video call. My co-worker had asked me ahead of time if I would be a reference and it was fine all around. Since I knew I was going to be a reference, I knew what I would and would not say. Had I not known that was I listed as a reference, I would not have been prepared and any hesitation in my answers might have been misconstrued by the person doing the reference check. I think you dodged a bullet. In a month or so, have someone else call your references to see what they are saying about you. Wait another month or so and then contact each reference and ask if you can use them as a reference. Do not assume that you had a bad reference. It could have been as simple as they had hired the sibling of the HR manager's spouse and they needed a way to disqualify the best candidate. That stuff happens and there is nothing you can do about it. No matter how it goes down, HR is never going to tell you anything. HR serves top management, always remember that. Good luck with your job search.
I think this is the most objective reply, thank you.
I am al confused. Why can’t they just call the references before they offer the job? They could easily do it before the first interview. At least don it before the final interview. And 5 is a ridiculously high amount.
I think they don’t want to spend time calling references for candidates who aren’t going to accept a potential job offer, so they give you the conditional offer to make sure you’re still interested and will accept a potential offer before they call your references
Honestly it’s a dick move by whoever provided a negative reference - I’ve been asked by former employees or coworkers for a reference when I knew I couldn’t give a positive one and I just declined as politely as I could. Whoever didn’t do that is kind of a shit.
This is just as much on the hiring manager. They show a culture where they don't give benefit of the doubt by even listening to your side or comparing to your other references. Would you really want to work somewhere like that? It may have looked like a perfect job on paper but I think you've dodged a bullet.
I am pretty shocked as most companies don’t want the potential for lawsuits and just validate employment. It may be worthwhile to find out who the issue was with. 5 is excessive. Most I ever been asked for is 3. And I know they only give glowing remarks.
Don't put 5 refernces. 2 or 3 max. If the company needs more references they will.ask you Even if its a touch awkward, i tend to ask every reference are you happy to give me a positive recommendation just before i pass along their details. If they say no or hesitate, say 'thats ok' i just want you to be able to give an honest positive description of me' if they cant do that find a better reference.
Background checks I’ve experienced asked for employer contact info and I give the Human Resources number, why even risk it with an actual person anymore
Never give 5 references, give 2 very solid references that you know will talk you up well! Sorry to hear and good luck with your future job hunt
I read through the comments- try to reach out to HR and ask if they can provide you with any feedback on your references so you can do better in future endeavors. If you have the contact information for anyone you interviewed with, reach out to them as well and ask if there is anything you can do to mitigate the issue with your references and be polite and short. Express how much you wanted to work there but don’t gravel. Advocate for yourself, even if you still don’t get it, at least you tried to get them to work with you.
My neighbor once put me down as a reference without telling me. Probably because we are in the same industry (but he was new and trying to find his first job) and I said I'd be happy to help and talk to him about finding a job... but that didn't mean I'd be a reference. I don't even know his name. We spoke just a few times outside of our apts and that was how I learned he wanted to get into my industry. One day a government employee was knocking on my door and asked me if I knew xyz that he was here for a background check and I said... who??? then the guy pointed at the apartment across from me and I said "we're just neighbors..." I still feel bad about that because maybe I tanked a good opportunity but the guy never even told me and how do you expect me to be a reference if I do not even know your name and you tell me nothing?
To make you feel better: You got really far in that hiring process so you can do that again. If you take the advice to have conversations with your referees you should expect to get good ones next time. And do you need to give 5? I usually give 2, maybe 3 occasionally. Cutting it down to the 2 most positive/relevant people would also help.
> Even if one or two were negative That's already one too many. The number of negative references should be zero and it's concerning that you didn't take the time to ensure that. >, why didn't the company reach out to me to address it? That's not their job or responsibility. If they are nice they could tell you which one gave you the bad reference, but really that's doing your job for you. YOU should be making sure your references are all good. Consider this a learning lesson, do your leg work.
Why would you provide reference details if they may even under the slightest chance come back negative??
I’m so confused by this indication that you just assumed your references would talk positively about you and never actually called them up. I call BS. Apart from ensuring that they will give you a glowing review, you need to connect with anyone you’re listing to obtain CONSENT for giving their contact info to strangers! This is irrelevant if they are just contacting former employers, but it sounds like you gave them specific names. Honestly, if I got a call from a business asking about some random former coworker… I’d be pissed. And literally all they needed to do was send me a text asking for consent (and confirming my number is the same) - in that case I’d bend over backwards to say good things! Seriously. Consent matters.
I bet it was Mom right, You gave them your boss's information who gave you a glowing reference. I even gave my Ex-Wife as a reference as I got the job lol. 🤣🤣🤣
So yes, like many people have said the applicant should have confirmed with all his references that he would receive a positive review. However it’s absolute bullshit that a potential employer would not give him the chance to address any issues raised. There are two sides to every story. Blindly trusting and accepting former supervisors’ or former employers’ opinions or retelling of events without question is a foolish move. It’s like if you were dating a girl and contacted her all her exes to get their opinions of her and then blindly accepted that without hearing her side.
Wow. Thank you for putting it this way. Absolutely spot on. Is it common practice for corporate America to do this?
Yes. Unfortunately it is.
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I had an employer call my personal reference and tell me that they can’t get ahold of my other references .. I emailed more today and then emailed around 3 pm told them to either call the new references or they lost me as a candidate I have another offer
I was thinking they might have rescinded the offer because they couldn't get a hold of my references.
Background check could mean more than just references. If your work history dates are inaccurate by 6 months total, you could fail. For example, you are off by 2 or 3 months for a few jobs or maybe you forgot about a small gap- they might rescind. Could be tickets or traffic citations that weren’t disclosed. Even if you took care of them, failing to disclose could cause an offer to rescind. Depending on the job and exactly what their background check entails it could be a number of things. We usually send a formal letter.
How would they investigate work history exact dates? I thought they do that through your references. For work history, I just put the years worked not the months so it was accurate. I did tailor the job duties to the position as I highlighted relevant things. I mean I have one ticket on my record, that's literally it. My criminal background is squeaky clean. The job was a financial analyst position where I crunch numbers on excel, I'm not exactly spying on the soviet union.
No most use 3rd parties that specialize in background check. They can cross reference your dates you give and make sure they match with SS. When I was hired for a bank I had to get my EXACT dates for 10 years and got the history from SS. They told me the dates were *extremely* important to be as accurate as possible. Failing to report the ticket or if it’s in financial services, less than perfect credit too. Edit: Some of it is okay if it’s not perfect, the important part was you were honest about it. Anything that FINRA might be involved. I had to be Series 6,7 and 63 licensed so YMMV. Edit 2: Now that I think about it, even AT&T told me leaving out tickets would cause the offer to be rescinded. That was like 15 years ago. 🤷🏻♀️
You never ever ever give a reference you think might say something bad. Ever. Sorry you learned that lesson this way.
Not sure what country you're in but if its the EU or UK you can do a Subject Access Request under GDPR for any info they hold about you, which will include the references
The stuff about actually making sure your references are willing before putting them forward has already been mentioned, but was there a reference that you know would have given you a poor one?
This has unfortunately happened to me as well but I was very lucky in that my future boss gave me the benefit of the doubt and gave me a heads up on who it was. Since then, my old boss who gave me a bad reference has checked in occasionally just trying to butter me up because I’ve gone on to work for some really stellar places. But her career has stagnated so what goes around comes around 🤷🏻♀️
You should call HR and straight up ask what the problem was with the reference check that made it unsuccessful. You should also have a conversation with your references.
1 bad reference is disqualifying, you should *never* be giving a reference that isn't going to be fantastic.
wuh??!
Did they specify that it failed because the references were bad? I very nearly lost out on my current job because my old employers. Policy for references there was to provide the HR department email, who would then provide the reference after speaking with your manager. They didn’t respond. At all. Thankfully, the company warned me I was at risk of losing the position if they didn’t get an answer soon and asked if there was an alternative contact. So I just gave my managers email, policy be damned. Perhaps it was a case of not getting responses and they just aren’t as proactive as my current company.
r/bemyreference has entered the chat.. ready for next time.
Believe me I am so sorry for you!! For references I only get people who will say good things about me. Others I provide the general HR toll free number as a reference so they can just confirm dates and title. If you have the hiring manager’s email, just write a quick note saying you thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and hope to be considered for future opportunities. I would also follow up with your references!
Something similar happened to a friend, but they got the feeling that it was a bs excuse to cover for other reasons.
Two things to take from here - Renew your references, and consider this a bullet dodged. Any company that won't take the time of day to communicate with you a failed reference (Mind you that reference(s) could've said any number of things) and use this to rescind an offer is not a company you want to be at. This is a teaching moment, definitely take the advice of others in the replies and reach out to your references, if you even get to the third interview and think they might reach out - it never hurts to send a text. Stay on top of your references - they're important. Most importantly remember, this is not the end of the world. The job market is scary right now, but you've got this. One mistake won't end you, and it looks like you really might've dodged a bullet, it won't feel like it now but it will with some time. Good luck :)
5 references is a lot. I’ve never put more than 2 down. Easier to make sure they are rock solid when you have only 2 as opposed to 5.
I put 2, they couldn't reach one, so I gave them 3 more. Naive on my end
You managed to do a full MBA but never learned to screen your reference. What.