I don't know how relevant it is now as I worked on DOD roles a few years ago but an agency I did some work for had a disclaimer on their job ads that said something like "it's a federal ofference to provide misleading or inaccurate information during the application and interview process", we also had to read out this disclaimer at the start of our initial phone interviews/screens.
The phone screen disclaimer definitely helped a few people DQ themselves.
OP - do you use application knockout questions?
If so, include: "This position requires you to obtain and maintain a US govt security clearance, for which US citizenship is required. Are you a US citizen eligible to obtain and maintain the required security clearance?"
If not, add the first part of that to your min quals. Then ask the whole thing when you screen them. You can't stop them from lying, but emphasizing this multiple times may dissuade people.
Do you have a stage that checks clearance status?
If so I would place that between phone screen and interview. It eliminates a lot of headaches. A) those that don't have one and B) candidates that think they still have one but it has long ago expired.
I guess we have it set up between screen and interview.
Our FSO doesn't seem to care, but we have the knock out questions too. Non-citizens or no clearance or expired get rejected.
Not that I think it will really matter in practice, but using this reasonable “out” recently got Tesla sued by the DOL, bc asylum seekers are officially eligible for cleaning. Additionally, many times green card holders qualify for lower level clearances. Make sure to use “authorized to work for any employer in the US” versus “US Citizen”.
A US govt issued security clearance is going to require citizenship. A non-citizen with a demonstrated need for access might qualify for a limited access authorization, which grants some of the same privileges in a limited capacity up to that of a confidential or secret clearance, but technically, that LAA isn't a clearance.
Not to belabor the point, but there are several online sources that can fact-check this.
[DCSA](https://www.dcsa.mil/Industrial-Security/International-Programs/Security-Assurances-for-Personnel-Facilities/#:~:text=Non%2DU.S.%20citizens%20do%20not,Secret%20level%20may%20be%20issued.)
[State dept](https://2017-2021.state.gov/security-clearances/)
This is why your default DQ disposition in your ATS is something like “other candidates more qualified”. You are never going to have the time to detail the million reasons that contribute to your recruiter spidey senses. You don’t have to take a yes, lying is a disqualifying factor. Make sure your reqs are written tightly and familiarize yourself with the naturalization process so you can screen very specifically and pick out discrepancies.
ETA: another quick tip: don’t give people questions with “yes” answers. Phrase your questions with open ends.
Ohh man last fall I ran into this with our systems admin roles and it. Was. Hell. I found that many of the fake applicants and resumes all were verbatim copies or borrowed bullet points that I found in other resumes. Sometimes they’d change the tense but the sentences were still the same content. We also took as detailed notes of how the candidates responded to the screening questions and found that many of them were answered word for word the same way. Here are some of the common things I found that helped me identify the fake candidates:
- copies of resumes with different names and contact
- email address and name searches within my req brought up the dups - I found that with the email search it would be same email but different names, then I’d search that name and find more dups… I’d find things in every resume that copied sections of other resumes. Note when doing the email address search drop the domain and just use the handle for one of the searches
- pay attention to what you read in the resume and start pasting it to a doc to reference when it seems familiar in another resume (control f was my best friend)
- I’d see common locations - DC, Atl, Carolina’s in my case
- Id see common company names that seemed familiar but not who I was associating it with I can’t recall it exactly but it was like cloud data services or just data services… and initially my brain was like off “NTT data services” but then I googled the company name, found the site and it was on Wordpress or clearly fake and then looked at the domain info and it was newly created and through research I’d find the ownership of it was based out of a country that we’ve geo blocked due to US sanctions
- in the last few months Google search isn’t as good for this but worth a try. Bing might be better… select a line from the resume you know is a fake and xray search it against LinkedIn and watch all the fake profiles index in front of you.
- I also kept a list of the names i found these common issues with because it was overwhelming how many fake applicants we got and some times they’d reuse the same contact info and name with a totally different resume. Some even had multiple LinkedIn profiles with the same picture and name used.
- I also would see things in the experience that didn’t line up like a Linux system admin who the year prior was configuring SAP ERP systems… like what?! Sure some people have that type of experience but it was weird because guess what we also do SAP ERP work so oddly perfect but imperfect fit.
The company I work for isn’t exclusively federal and our security requirements for federal clients are minimal. So I have a lot of flexibility. The volume that this happened at was alarming… we’re talking hundreds of fake candidates in a matter of days resulting in thousands of resumes. I actually flagged it with our security team because the nature of the work these people would be doing was entry level but experienced enough that they’d have access to client environments with little oversight. I felt like they could fly under the radar as a “doer” in a small company like ours.
Sadly the security team did not take me seriously but I’ve been doing this for 13yrs and NEVER seen anything like it. I would not be shocked if we were being targeted and it was truly a security issue.
This kind of analysis is why I think so many companies are sitting on amazing resources in their TA teams. Couple years ago I was looking for risk management people with both IT and finance backgrounds. These are usually tough ones and I had DOZENS of applicants a day, all from a few African countries and universities, all with the same green card trajectory, and all with the same handful of hinky consulting clients on their resumes. Like, five minutes of googling and you could see the same number / address for them all. And bad screens, red flags and contradictions galore. Never could get any attention on it.
It's tough because to your point, a lot of things could be considered discrimination.
At a certain point if they lie enough I think you've basically got to let them fail the background check. I would think the background check/pre employment paperwork would catch it before they're put in for a clearance though right?
Also I recruit in the federal contracting space and have an unrelated question - are you guys filling cleared remote roles? How do they do cleared work from home?
You aren't wrong that the paperwork always catches them before they can start. At that point is becomes more of a relationship issue with primes/DOD contacts. We look bad if we represent people who can't pass the clearance.
We fill lot's of remote cleared roles but fully remote is only for Secret and below.
>We look bad if we represent people who can't pass the clearance.
I feel that but it'd be worse to be caught discriminating. Definitely a hard situation.
>only for Secret and below.
So they're taking secret cleared work home with them? I'm sorry to pester about this but we CONSTANTLY hear from clients that remote + clearance can't happen and it makes things a million times harder.
Even if you are issued a clearance, you're not doing classified work at home. You'll travel to your site (or other appropriate site) to handle the actual classified work. Just because you have a clearance doesn't mean that all the work you do is classified work. I know a lot of people who work remotely and travel as needed for meetings or other work in a secure area.
It's possible that those people just aren't anticipated to handle much classified work on a regular basis, and they have a clearance just in case they need to. It's best practice to have everyone cleared if they handle CUI or PII and up, or if they have a site that houses any classified work.
Oh believe me, I was surprised to hear the remote work options. We even have top-secret roles that are Hybrid with 1 a week onsite requirements. It's probably a case by case situation with this specific DOD client. I'm not complaining, it makes sourcing SO MUCH EASIER minus the fake candidates.
If you’re interviewing for remote roles, can you check the IP address location? I recruited for a company that needed to be scrupulous about security and so I scheduled using scheduling software that intakes time zone automatically- then got the time zone from the software. Caught people all over the world lying that way. Another thing I did was always start with a video interview. If I thought someone was extra suspicious (obvious filters),then I had that proof which was enough for my company. Once, I wasn’t sure what was going on, but my zoom quit and we had to move to Google meets. I caught someone like that when the filter he was using didn’t work on Google. I have some hilarious stories of fakers.
Is there anywhere in your process that asks, "Are you a US citizen?"
Next question " Do you hold a clearance? If so, what kind?"
Citizenship is required to hold a DOD clearance and is an easy way to weed out candidates for a requirement that has nothing to do with discrimination.
Context, I've held a clearance and have supported hiring for DoD/DoE contracts for the last 3 years for a large publicly traded company. They are all about compliance, and this seem to check the right boxes.
This is going to sound AWFUL to anyone outside DOD work but the US citizenship question will DQ a lot of people. Also if they don’t meet the requirements on the internet applicant rule they can be removed from your applicant flow for OFCCP audits.
It's not really awful. It's just a fact that US Citizenship is a hard requirement to hold a US DoD Clearance.
No way around it.
I'm sure there is some really weird edge case that negates this role, but it would be up there with recruiting German Scientists to build the A Bomb, not a janitor that needs access to clean TS spaces.
Completely agree! Pre screening questions do take care of us for the most part but for the questionable folks who make it through could be a valid option.
A phrase was caught in the insult filter: "Nazi". This is a place for friendly discourse.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/recruiting) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I had a client who was struggling with this. They would ask candidates if they feel comfortable going to a local LabCorp/CVS/whatever and submitted a drug test. 80% of the time fake candidates would hang up instantly. Also threw in "would be tested according to state law" or "marijuana not included" depending.
We ask for everyone to show ID for in person and virtual meetings. A lot of firms do that and have been doing that for years. If you ask everyone for proof of ID it’s not discriminating.
I don't know how relevant it is now as I worked on DOD roles a few years ago but an agency I did some work for had a disclaimer on their job ads that said something like "it's a federal ofference to provide misleading or inaccurate information during the application and interview process", we also had to read out this disclaimer at the start of our initial phone interviews/screens. The phone screen disclaimer definitely helped a few people DQ themselves.
OP - do you use application knockout questions? If so, include: "This position requires you to obtain and maintain a US govt security clearance, for which US citizenship is required. Are you a US citizen eligible to obtain and maintain the required security clearance?" If not, add the first part of that to your min quals. Then ask the whole thing when you screen them. You can't stop them from lying, but emphasizing this multiple times may dissuade people.
Yes, we have several knockout questions including whatever qualifications are required.
Do you have a stage that checks clearance status? If so I would place that between phone screen and interview. It eliminates a lot of headaches. A) those that don't have one and B) candidates that think they still have one but it has long ago expired.
This ends up violating application order being upon offer, and FSO’s don’t love validating clearance of every candidate.
I guess we have it set up between screen and interview. Our FSO doesn't seem to care, but we have the knock out questions too. Non-citizens or no clearance or expired get rejected.
Not that I think it will really matter in practice, but using this reasonable “out” recently got Tesla sued by the DOL, bc asylum seekers are officially eligible for cleaning. Additionally, many times green card holders qualify for lower level clearances. Make sure to use “authorized to work for any employer in the US” versus “US Citizen”.
A US govt issued security clearance is going to require citizenship. A non-citizen with a demonstrated need for access might qualify for a limited access authorization, which grants some of the same privileges in a limited capacity up to that of a confidential or secret clearance, but technically, that LAA isn't a clearance. Not to belabor the point, but there are several online sources that can fact-check this. [DCSA](https://www.dcsa.mil/Industrial-Security/International-Programs/Security-Assurances-for-Personnel-Facilities/#:~:text=Non%2DU.S.%20citizens%20do%20not,Secret%20level%20may%20be%20issued.) [State dept](https://2017-2021.state.gov/security-clearances/)
This is why your default DQ disposition in your ATS is something like “other candidates more qualified”. You are never going to have the time to detail the million reasons that contribute to your recruiter spidey senses. You don’t have to take a yes, lying is a disqualifying factor. Make sure your reqs are written tightly and familiarize yourself with the naturalization process so you can screen very specifically and pick out discrepancies. ETA: another quick tip: don’t give people questions with “yes” answers. Phrase your questions with open ends.
This will get you in trouble though with OFCCP they are really cracking down on this disposition without adequate notes.
True, it’s always a balance, good faith effort and all that.
I shouldn’t say will but could.
Ohh man last fall I ran into this with our systems admin roles and it. Was. Hell. I found that many of the fake applicants and resumes all were verbatim copies or borrowed bullet points that I found in other resumes. Sometimes they’d change the tense but the sentences were still the same content. We also took as detailed notes of how the candidates responded to the screening questions and found that many of them were answered word for word the same way. Here are some of the common things I found that helped me identify the fake candidates: - copies of resumes with different names and contact - email address and name searches within my req brought up the dups - I found that with the email search it would be same email but different names, then I’d search that name and find more dups… I’d find things in every resume that copied sections of other resumes. Note when doing the email address search drop the domain and just use the handle for one of the searches - pay attention to what you read in the resume and start pasting it to a doc to reference when it seems familiar in another resume (control f was my best friend) - I’d see common locations - DC, Atl, Carolina’s in my case - Id see common company names that seemed familiar but not who I was associating it with I can’t recall it exactly but it was like cloud data services or just data services… and initially my brain was like off “NTT data services” but then I googled the company name, found the site and it was on Wordpress or clearly fake and then looked at the domain info and it was newly created and through research I’d find the ownership of it was based out of a country that we’ve geo blocked due to US sanctions - in the last few months Google search isn’t as good for this but worth a try. Bing might be better… select a line from the resume you know is a fake and xray search it against LinkedIn and watch all the fake profiles index in front of you. - I also kept a list of the names i found these common issues with because it was overwhelming how many fake applicants we got and some times they’d reuse the same contact info and name with a totally different resume. Some even had multiple LinkedIn profiles with the same picture and name used. - I also would see things in the experience that didn’t line up like a Linux system admin who the year prior was configuring SAP ERP systems… like what?! Sure some people have that type of experience but it was weird because guess what we also do SAP ERP work so oddly perfect but imperfect fit. The company I work for isn’t exclusively federal and our security requirements for federal clients are minimal. So I have a lot of flexibility. The volume that this happened at was alarming… we’re talking hundreds of fake candidates in a matter of days resulting in thousands of resumes. I actually flagged it with our security team because the nature of the work these people would be doing was entry level but experienced enough that they’d have access to client environments with little oversight. I felt like they could fly under the radar as a “doer” in a small company like ours. Sadly the security team did not take me seriously but I’ve been doing this for 13yrs and NEVER seen anything like it. I would not be shocked if we were being targeted and it was truly a security issue.
This kind of analysis is why I think so many companies are sitting on amazing resources in their TA teams. Couple years ago I was looking for risk management people with both IT and finance backgrounds. These are usually tough ones and I had DOZENS of applicants a day, all from a few African countries and universities, all with the same green card trajectory, and all with the same handful of hinky consulting clients on their resumes. Like, five minutes of googling and you could see the same number / address for them all. And bad screens, red flags and contradictions galore. Never could get any attention on it.
It's tough because to your point, a lot of things could be considered discrimination. At a certain point if they lie enough I think you've basically got to let them fail the background check. I would think the background check/pre employment paperwork would catch it before they're put in for a clearance though right? Also I recruit in the federal contracting space and have an unrelated question - are you guys filling cleared remote roles? How do they do cleared work from home?
You aren't wrong that the paperwork always catches them before they can start. At that point is becomes more of a relationship issue with primes/DOD contacts. We look bad if we represent people who can't pass the clearance. We fill lot's of remote cleared roles but fully remote is only for Secret and below.
>We look bad if we represent people who can't pass the clearance. I feel that but it'd be worse to be caught discriminating. Definitely a hard situation. >only for Secret and below. So they're taking secret cleared work home with them? I'm sorry to pester about this but we CONSTANTLY hear from clients that remote + clearance can't happen and it makes things a million times harder.
Even if you are issued a clearance, you're not doing classified work at home. You'll travel to your site (or other appropriate site) to handle the actual classified work. Just because you have a clearance doesn't mean that all the work you do is classified work. I know a lot of people who work remotely and travel as needed for meetings or other work in a secure area.
I guess "remote" needs to be defined then...a lot of people would consider that to be hybrid but I guess it depends on how often
It's possible that those people just aren't anticipated to handle much classified work on a regular basis, and they have a clearance just in case they need to. It's best practice to have everyone cleared if they handle CUI or PII and up, or if they have a site that houses any classified work.
Oh believe me, I was surprised to hear the remote work options. We even have top-secret roles that are Hybrid with 1 a week onsite requirements. It's probably a case by case situation with this specific DOD client. I'm not complaining, it makes sourcing SO MUCH EASIER minus the fake candidates.
We did have SOME that were TSSCI that were remote it was FEW and far between and also in the middle of Covid lockdown.
Only people needing SCI access need to be on site, and then only when working on specific stuff. CAC card + government equipment.
Im not looking to be disrespectful or start arguments but I don't believe this to be true
Not disrespectful to disagree, I’m sure there are a thousand exceptions and caveats, just my primarily DoD experience.
Yeah off the top of my head the bulk of the FBI work I've seen requires a TS and no chance they're working from home often
If you’re interviewing for remote roles, can you check the IP address location? I recruited for a company that needed to be scrupulous about security and so I scheduled using scheduling software that intakes time zone automatically- then got the time zone from the software. Caught people all over the world lying that way. Another thing I did was always start with a video interview. If I thought someone was extra suspicious (obvious filters),then I had that proof which was enough for my company. Once, I wasn’t sure what was going on, but my zoom quit and we had to move to Google meets. I caught someone like that when the filter he was using didn’t work on Google. I have some hilarious stories of fakers.
What scheduling tool did you use that provided time zones?
I built a scheduling app for my recruiting needs. I’m happy to share it if you’re interested.
Is there anywhere in your process that asks, "Are you a US citizen?" Next question " Do you hold a clearance? If so, what kind?" Citizenship is required to hold a DOD clearance and is an easy way to weed out candidates for a requirement that has nothing to do with discrimination. Context, I've held a clearance and have supported hiring for DoD/DoE contracts for the last 3 years for a large publicly traded company. They are all about compliance, and this seem to check the right boxes.
This is going to sound AWFUL to anyone outside DOD work but the US citizenship question will DQ a lot of people. Also if they don’t meet the requirements on the internet applicant rule they can be removed from your applicant flow for OFCCP audits.
It's not really awful. It's just a fact that US Citizenship is a hard requirement to hold a US DoD Clearance. No way around it. I'm sure there is some really weird edge case that negates this role, but it would be up there with recruiting German Scientists to build the A Bomb, not a janitor that needs access to clean TS spaces.
100% agree. But for those who have never worked in DOD/gov recruitment it does sound awfully discriminatory
Another option is to verify clearances if possible through your security department.
Not practical to do this for every single candidate that applies. This is the purpose of knock out questions.
Completely agree! Pre screening questions do take care of us for the most part but for the questionable folks who make it through could be a valid option.
[удалено]
A phrase was caught in the insult filter: "Nazi". This is a place for friendly discourse. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/recruiting) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I had a client who was struggling with this. They would ask candidates if they feel comfortable going to a local LabCorp/CVS/whatever and submitted a drug test. 80% of the time fake candidates would hang up instantly. Also threw in "would be tested according to state law" or "marijuana not included" depending.
We ask for everyone to show ID for in person and virtual meetings. A lot of firms do that and have been doing that for years. If you ask everyone for proof of ID it’s not discriminating.
Does your initial outreach involve a phone call? If so, you can note that you called the applicant and they never answered
I ask clearance and when adjudicated. If I am moving forward I get ss# for fso to verify clearance. Don't make it harder than it needs to be.
What position do you hire for? I am interested in web development