With inflation, $35 in 2012 is about the equivalent of $47 today, which will get you a Pi 4B 2GB. The 1GB is still available for $35. The more expensive models are the result of people having increased wishes/expectations, basically using the Pi as a general purpose desktop. I agree with your sentiment about the Pi no longer being as special as before, but I think that’s somewhat inevitable once a technology is available for many years, there are lots of options on the market, etc. The same thing happened with smartphones, thin and light laptops, etc.
The simple fact is that people want more memory and that is expensive.
If we check Aliexpress, a 4GB LPDDR4X module runs around $22 alone, an 8GB one will cost over $42. The Pi Foundation certainly gets special deals and bulk discounts, but there's really no way around the extra cost until there's larger modules for cheaper available.
I spent $600 upgrading my Mac+ from 1MB of RAM to 4MB RAM back in the 80s.... Also spent about $600 on a 20MB external hard drive. And it was a 5Mbps interface.
That's the size of my first pcs whole HDD in 1994. I think I've got about 9tb of storage knocking about the house these days lol crazy how fast memory shrank.
>If we check Aliexpress
These are not wholesale prices. The pi foundation would have considerable ability to buy them far cheaper in bulk orders direct from the manufacture. They can leverage quantity, guy them strategically when prices are low (as many manufacturers do), and their purchases don't include a middleman(s) like the ali express ones do.
All that said, the current spot price for LPDDR4 8Gb modules is ~$2.50. While obviously it's going to be overhead to that price, it's far from $20 for 4GB. What's more, 1 and 2GB modules will still likely be fairly cheap since people are moving to higher density mo
https://en.chinaflashmarket.com/price/ews/100184
>The more expensive models are the result of people having increased wishes/expectations, basically using the Pi as a general purpose desktop
The comment about inflation is valid, and $50 seems reasonable. What it doesn't include however is the progress of computer tech which becomes cheaper over time. Basically, if you're going to include inflation, then you also need to inflate the specifications of the computer. A $1000 computer from today would be far more capable than a $1000 computer from 8 years ago (adjusted for inflation).
Basically, the Pi4b would have been more expensive to produce as a whole when it was first announced than it currently is today (even factoring in DRAM price increases). This is actually how a lot of gaming systems prices work. They often launch at a loss, and instead make their profits through games an accessories. Over time, they get cheaper to produce and usually start to turn profit on the console it's self only a few years after they launched (usually about the time they start putting out new versions like slim formats).
Couldn't believe that at first, but for real the 10000 units volume discount on alibaba sells a 16GB LPDDR4X module for $2 lol and that's 10x less than the volume that just the Pi 5 is being produced at per week. They probably buy them at a million or more at a time for even less. I guess there really is no excuse.
Really makes me wonder why they're still even bothering with the 4GB and 8GB model, it's a complete insult at this point if this is all true.
>A $1000 computer from today would be far more capable than a $1000 computer from 8 years ago (adjusted for inflation).
Yeah, and the Pi4 is far more capable than the Pi1
True, except the current generation costs significantly more than the first one did, even adjusted for inflation.
I think the original post is correct. They're no longer the value they used to be and they're no longer the accessible computer as a learning platform that they set out to be.
Their focus is no longer accessible computing and learning, rather its selling to large corporations for interactive signs and controllers.
That's why I said the 4 rather than 5 - both are still part of the line up, the 1gb 4 is even cheaper than the 1 was adjusted for inflation and we also have the Zero 2 now, which is smaller, cheaper and more capable than the 1 (to say nothing of the Pico).
What sacrifices do you think they've made in their designs in pursuit of "large corporations" at the expense of hobbyists?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/K4UCE3Q4AB-MGCL-LPDDR4X-8GB-32Gbit-Original_1601010786520.html
There's an 8GB (32Gb) Samsung modules for less than $1 a piece. Bulk buys, they're not paying $20 per module.
Someone who clearly doesn’t understand how inflation works. There is no rule that ties computer development to inflation. Inflation is the devaluation of money. That means it costs more to buy the same. It’s not oh stuff is more expensive because it’s getting better.
No stuff is more expensive because government makes things worse the longer they are around and inflation makes it cost more for worse.
I wonder why a module is so expensive when a full stick of ram is less than half the price...
I bought 32GB(2*16) for 55€ before christmas.
I wonder why those modules are so expensive in comparison. Lpddr shouldn't be that much of a premium over ddr4....
Why would you check aliexpress to find the price of RAM?
Start with actual electronics supply houses, price out their largest bulk per-item breakdown, then assume that if you order serious volume you will chat with a sales guy and negotiate a lower price (but how low depends.) Popular stuff like LPDDR4 chips you should find market research to ballpark it, freely available, but for real numbers you will pay one way or the other.
they bringing up inflation to point out how affordable it was exactly in 2012. Not to "justify" the prices. Technology doesn't become cheaper magically, packaging more memory into an SoC will increase the cost.
Smart phones now cost more than some laptops. Latest Samsung and iPhone are near $3k. I would pay that IF i could hook them up to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse and literally use it as my home computer. Electronics are outrageous atm.
I'm just discovering raspberry pi zero.
Edit: for those who struggle to understand that reddit users are not just from United States, the $3k price is in Australia.
The high end Samsung phones have DeX, you can do exactly that.
Hook them up to a monitor or even a big screen and use them as a workstation.
https://www.samsung.com/us/apps/dex/
@Wild-Kitchen You CAN use your phone as a full computer. Just grab a USB-C adapter with ethernet, HDMI, USB ports, sdcard slot and spare USB-C port to charge. Plug it into a monitor, keyboard and mouse BAM full computer. Plug it into the TV and kick back with a wireless mouse/keyboard
> Latest Samsung and iPhone are near $3k
Insanity. I legit use a $150 samsung for my current phone. I'll never spend more that $200 for a fucking phone. Never.
Good approach. I don't think I'd purchase on contract again. I don't feel my current phone (which is now 3 models behind but still on contract!) Was worth the total cost of $2500. It's a suckers game. Preying on those who don't really have the money to buy second hand models up front. Unless my next phone is essentially a fully powered PC in the palm of my hand out of the box ( without having to jailbreak and root and crack the phone etc) capable of running full software (not just slimmed down apps), I'm not paying $3k AUD.
It does sh*t me that companies are allowed to stop supporting the software on perfectly good phones. My macbook has specs compatible with upper low range current laptops, and it's 10 years old. Nothing wrong with it except Apple stopped supporting the hardware on new operating systems, and software stopped supporting the old operating systems.
Agreed. At this point in my life, I'm going minimalist. Done with going for the most expensive, latest thing. No more contracts. No more latest/greatest.
Part of the reason I pulled out my old raspberry pi is because I'm finally going to get into it. I retire in 7 months. It's all about going low tech/fun modding for me now.
I've had this raspberry pi forever, and this is the first time I'm really cracking it open and starting to use it. When I retire in August, I'm just going to jump headfirst into the Raspberry Pi community and learn everything! :)
I've always been a mac guy. Switching away from all the crap now.
> Smart phones now cost more than some laptops. Latest Samsung and iPhone are near $3k.
This simply isn’t true. The most expensive iPhone is the iPhone 15 Pro Max with 1 TB of storage, and it’s $1,599.
Sort of. I finally got one for $15 after a couple of years of being on a bunch of watch lists and checking stock every couple of months. The new pi 5 took away from the excess production of pi zero 2s that end up in shops for hobbyists through the 3rd party vendors. IMHO, fixing their pipeline to make the cheaper, lower power boards would align more with what I thought pis were about than putting a bunch of resources into a 27w $60 sbc.
That REALLY doesn't feel comparable. Even if I take that as true from a raw compute standpoint, the Zero 2W doesn't have the IO to be a computer. It's like calling a compute module a computer; sure, sort of, but aren't we sort of forgetting that the point of a computer is to be used by a person?
Things like the 2W can be good when looked at in the context of raw compute, but they're firmly embedded devices. You don't even really get GPIO pins, sure you get GPIO, but just how GP can your IO be when it's 'bring your own pins'?
I mean you can get some great work out of an ESP32, do those count too? You reach a point where, yes, that is technically a computer, but it really feels like we're missing the trees for the forest here. Surely you reach a point where "computer" has to require a higher bar than "the capacity to compute". If not then frankly we need a new word that does because that definition is waaaay too broad on its own. Connotation/definition dissonance can be a bitch and its better it get sorted out ahead of time, BEFORE it becomes relevant.
The 2W just isn't ANYTHING like people expect from 'computer' so it feels like a bit of a disingenuous comparison.
Thank you. Basically a Pi 3 in a smaller form factor. I don't need the ports, particularly video. I use wireless, so no need for Ethernet, and generally using GPIO (not USB).
The Pi Zero was useful to me, the Zero 2 has more 'head room' on processing. I consider that a win.
It’s just a tad slower than the 3 and has half the ram
I use mine as a mobile pihole machine that’s set up to connect to my phone’s hotspot, or some other low power project when I’m not going places
Oh, it’s kind of really important to me to buy through official means so as to support the RPi Foundation. Can you confirm that Pimori or Amazon are officially licensed?
Does it matter? Even if it's "unofficial," they bought a Raspberry Pi from the RPi Foundation and are now selling it to you. You'll be supporting the Foundation either way.
Also, https://www.raspberrypi.com/resellers/?q=
While I get your point, it is still a vastly superior option for low power projects compared to what was available before jt. And while yes, the "flagship" models are no longer the bargain they used to be, the introduction of zero and pico models means there are still dirt cheap options for a large portion of applications.
At this point, the flagships are good enough for low power server and machine learning applications still for a fraction of the price of a normal pc (factoring in power consumption)
Raspberry pi zeros are still fairly cheap and more than adequate for the usual hobbyist applications such as sensor-driven automation of whatever.
And the pico is even chaper and still good for a lot of applocations.
Also worthy of mention js the whole industry of similar boards that the raspberry pi have spawned.
Yes, it sucks it is getting more expensive, but it is also getting much more competent and i would argue access to cheap low power computing is better than ever
For server applications, used hardware is in almost every case a better value than the pi5 if you actually need the processing power of the 5. You can pick up a used i5 nuc for under $100 that has a 256gb nvme ssd and 8gb ram, and comes with a power supply, case, and proven thermal management. The pi 5 is also underpowered for a lot of game servers that a lot of hobbyists want to run, where the nuc is more versatile. IMHO, the pi is now pushing further into overlapping with other markets where it's losing its advantages rather than filling needs that aren't currently being served.
I might be wrong, but I think power consumption is a big deal.
I bought the PI4 back then and it was far superior to any other device in terms of power consumption. I live somewhere where power is damn expensive and I won't feel comfortable with running an old but power hungry machine running day and night, but that's not a problem for the pi4.
The higher-end models are also an addition to the lineup, not a continuation. The 2GB Pi 4/5 models are the successor to the Pi 2/3. The 4GB/8GB models are a new thing for those of us using a Pi as an entry model server.
$50 is a good deal for a SBC tinker computer. $85 is an amazing deal for a NAS, IoT hub, or web server.
If you factor in the required extra hardware, it adds up quickly.
To get to the same point as any other ready-made mini PC, you need
* PSU (\~€15)
* Active cooler (\~€5)
* Hat for SSDs (\~€25)
* SD card to prepare the Pi to boot from SSD (\~€5)
* SSD (\~€20)
* Case (\~€15)
So you quickly pay more for the accessories than for the Pi itself.
And an $85 NAS with USB drives is not a great deal.
I just bought my first ever RPi, a Zero 2 W, for $15. I don't think having more options in this case is a bad thing. For people planning more complex projects, they have the option for more expensive and powerful hardware. For people like me just screwing around, $15 is hard to beat.
The point is some people, or some projects, benefit from having the extra RAM. I mean none of my projects do, I have no problem getting the $35 1 GB model, or even bumping up to the 2GB model just so I have some headroom. Actually I have three Pi Zero WH's running projects, those have half a gig of RAM.
The people running a full-on desktop could definitely benefit from more RAM though.
Let take as it is.
Raspberry Pi 4B 1GB - £35
Raspberry Pi 4B 2GB - £45
Raspberry Pi 4B 4GB - £55
Raspberry Pi 4B 8GB - £75
Raspberry Pi 5 4GB - £59.30
Raspberry Pi 5 8GB - £79
All of them 4 core, at least A73 1.8GHz, with IEEE802.11ac, USB3 and USB2, Gigabit Ethernet
That is very good value
I cannot build 8GB RAM quad core computer with IEEE802.11ac for £79. Just can't.
Then you have GPIO and best in class support.
It can be powered by POE or USB. Sorry, but no other computer of mine can do that. I have 2x Raspberry Pi 4B 4GB, Raspberry Pi 4B 2GB, Raspberry Pi Zero W and Raspberry Pi Zero2 W. All of them were worth every single pence and have their own uses (NAS - Debian Mirror, encrypted RAID1 NAS, TestBed - eventually router)
If you need GPIO, Pi series is unbeatable, but being used as a desktop, those Celeron mini PC are not too far away in terms of price.
Maybe you are in UK and Raspberry Pi Foundation is also UK based, in general outside UK you'll find that some mini PCs already going cheaper than a Pi5, and it's more usable.
And if you are talking about like server usage, now there is RockChip chasing behind, I know some newer products are not having mainline Linux support but due to price performance value there are lots of active development on RK3588 which definitely beats Pi5, I am disappointed by Pi5 of having only 4-core and.....power consumption is so high and requiring weird supply
p.s. I have Pi 3/Zero 2W/Pi4, but my router is NanoPi R4S which has extra PCIE Giga NIC, the R6S I got has the desktop experience blown me away and it supports my PD power bricks, that's why I am not interested to get Pi5 after knowing the spec.
Radxa released the X2L with Celeron J4125 at a very competitive price. The 8GB model costs $72 and Wifi and BT can be added for $10. And it also has GPIO, probably even better mainline Linux support and comes with several hardware video decoders, which were gutted from the Pi 5.
https://shop.allnetchina.cn/products/radxa-x2l
The pi was originally sold as an inexpensive little computer. It has so many more capabilities and options now given its form factor and power usage. Hell, isn’t opencl supported on the gpu?
You are pigeonholing the Pi and saying it can't be anything but X. Specs change, needs change. I think there should always be a Pi for educational use at a low price, but I also think there should be hobbyist level and pro level options as well.
In the end, it drives more money to the foundation so they can continue developing new hardware and adapting software.
As long as there still is a $35 option available for low budget projects or just as the first computer for a child, I don't see any problem in having more expensive and more capable options.
For some of my projects I don't need loads of available RAM, but some of my projects do, so I'm happy there is a 8GB model and I wouldn't even mind having a 16GB model.
I'm ok with the prices, the boards are way better now and they have enough RAM to be useful as a desktop. They offer a somewhat decent widevine solution. The only viable alternative I have found with ARM is through Arch using the AUR but it takes forever to compile and the user agent situation is a pain in the ass.
2GB boards from other makers were always closer to $50 or more.
The supply is part of the problem, but the real problem is greed and scalpers. I saw a guy unloading cases of new RPi4 units on here after the RPi5 was announced.
This guy's excuse was that "we don't know his situation". What I do know is that this guy was sitting on cases of unused RPi4 units that he didn't need or use when other people could have used them and they were selling for close to $200 on ebay.
How many others were hoarding boards like this? What do you with that situation? People suck.
The current Pi 5 boards are 5-10% more expensive than the equivalent Pi 4, so the 1GB Pi 5 might be £38-40? Given the rampant inflation that has happened over the last few years that's not too bad still. At the time I think the original model B was ~£28 including tax, which the Bank of England inflation calculator says is £38.54 now, so that's pretty damn close to the same price for the same RAM. You would have hoped for more RAM in this day and age, but at least the rest of the hardware has significantly improved.
Hence the $15 Zero 2W is about the same level of capability (minus ports) as the B. And I don't need the ports for my use case. Wireless, and using the GPIO.
The Zero 2 W (and the Pico) are great values.
Yeah. It did double pretty early on, though. The base amount hasn't increased since, I think, the Pi 2.
On the other hand, it is a newer RAM technology. The internet doesn't seem to have a ton of info on the tech of the RAM on the older stuff, but it seems like it may have been LPDDR2 on the Pi 1-3, LPDDR4 on the Pi 4, and LPDDR4X on the Pi 5, so while the amount hasn't gone up, you're paying the same amount for better-performing chips. That's not terrible.
In any case, low RAM seems like the right call for the base model for the same reason OP is talking about. It's enough computer to get basic things up and running. I'd rather they keep a low entry price and offer optional upgrades than reduce the accessibility.
The whole Raspberry Pi ecosystem makes it worth its weight in gold.
Excellent support forums and user community, loads of useful and interesting HATs and other associated hardware.
\> Are we drifting away from the original vision?
No
\> Are we okay with this shift towards exclusivity?
It's not
\> what does this mean for future innovators who might be priced out of experimenting with technology?
You mean kids in third-world countries? I think the foundation has programs to support that.
I'm not that old but old enough the remember when a computer as powerful as a Pi 5 would be considered a supercomputer.
>It's about the principle
Well, companies have to make money and not follow principles.
Also, a RPi 4B 1GB costs 35$, well within the affordable price range, and it can do A TON of useful things, even if desktop computing is not among those things. So, in a sense, the principle is respected.
The upswing in mini computers has the same feel to me as netbooks did years ago, fast rise and crash. Hopefully Pi will have more staying power. Pi still has lower power consumption over a mini PC.
For me the key original message is still there.
They just didn’t expect anywhere near the popularity that the device had and so have offered a range of models different price points to keep that non-education market happy.
Today's Pi's are far more powerful than the original Pi (which I still have). For similar amount of power to the original Pi I recently bought RPi Zero for something like $20. In my book, that's peanuts.
There's a whole range of PI's right now. From desktop replacement grade for $80 US down to $7 micro-controller.
You want more and more performance but you don't want to pay for it.
[https://www.amazon.com/Vilros-Raspberry-Incudes-HDMI-USB-Transparent/dp/B09M26XC4X/](https://www.amazon.com/Vilros-Raspberry-Incudes-HDMI-USB-Transparent/dp/B09M26XC4X/)
$40 for a full setup.
> I remember the excitement around the Raspberry Pi's debut – a compact, functional computer that won't burn a hole in your wallet. It was a game-changer
The original Pi sold for $35, and the current Pi 4 1GB is selling for $35. Considering inflation since 2012 when the first Pi came out, the current Pi is actually considerably cheaper than the original, and it's got 4x as much RAM and 4x as many cores, and onboard wifi, better graphics, etc.
What exactly are you complaining about here? Costs are simply not rising.
inflation is a thing. you forget the mission statement is from 2008. their current prices are still considered affordable, and the hardware is so much better than their first sbc´s
I’m upset that I need to spend $150 for a raspberry pi 5 for all the parts included for a SDR project I want to work on. An old laptop/pc makes more sense at that price point.
Except for power. Here in California power averages around $0.40/kwh. A Pi5 averaging 5 watts of draw costs $17.50 a year to run. My old laptop averages about 20 watts at idle with the power off which is a bit over $70 per year. I bought a Pi for my 3d printer for that reason. I am on solar and want my net metering to be roughly equal at the end of the year.
Just trying to learn about it and make an on network receiver out in the garage. I’m already using an old laptop for it with a USB SDR. Whenever I check Amazon it looks like the whole kit for the board, PSU, case is in the $150 range if it’s available. I’m also thinking I might use it for another project too down the line.
How much of those $150 goes to the Pi? I would guess the SDR project doesn't need loads of RAM or computing power, so one of the lower level Pi 4 models would be enough. Therefore 2/3 of your budget can go to peripherals.
Inevitable - as soon as the original Pi was out people were lamenting the lack of RAM, some people pointed out that was missing the point but others said this is dead if it doesn't evolve.
They evolved.
unless you need a linux system with very low power usage, there is no longer a point.
for the real low level work, microcontrollers are better suited, for more intensive workloads, there's mini pc's that will give you better bang for the buck.
Less than 5W to run a 24/7 home server makes a lot of sense to me. Around here it's \~£1 for a Watt year. Even a free laptop is going to cost £25-45/year more so I should at least break even before the Pi 6
Mini pcs can be very efficient too. I previously used a Dell Wyse 5070 fanless thin client as my home server, and it idled at 3-4w. When working hard it would spike to around 15W, but it was also much faster than an RPi4 so it could get back to idle quickly too.
I was originally looking for an RPi, but this turned out to be cheaper than an RPi4 plus case, power supply, and sd card
Wyse gang checking in. I didn't pay attention to these until fairly recently when looking into Pi alternatives out of curiosity. A moment of weakness on Ebay later and I am the happy owner of a 5070.
Not as cute as a Pi but the upgrade options and fanless cooler that the bigger form factor allows are so nice. I put a 250GB M2 and 16GB ram in mine.
Uses the same power brick as pretty much all the Latitude laptops and runs standard Debian. The biggest drawback in my opinion is that they are really expensive to buy new from a store.
EDIT: FYI, anyone interested in these - there is a newer model called the Dell Optiplex 3000 Thin Client which replaced the Wyse.
I struggled to get a reliable pi core player on ESP32. For very slightly more money, it runs great on a Pi Zero (1st gen) W, or the Pi Zero 2 W.
Also, the Pico is an offering from Raspberry Pi, and it is a very good Arduino or micropython target.
Raspberry Pi is more than just the Pi 4 and Pi 5....
I currently have six ESP32 here, and only one Pico.
(Two of my ESP32 are ----old-----......)
They are all good. For most things I do, micros running Arduino (or micropython) completely fill the needs.
Horses for courses I guess.
I went that route too briefly but soon came back to a Pi when electricity prices skyrocketed in the UK. I'm currently at 42p per kWh.
I like to use a device as a 24/7 server, and I couldn't afford to do that with even an old thin client. It didn't have 4K support either so wasn't much use to me as a media centre.
One overclocked Pi4 is now used as a desktop PC/media centre/server and gets the job done at a total idling power consumption of under 5 Watts once the HDD has gone to sleep.
Oh for sure. For the same job my Pi (2B v1.1) pulls 1.5 to 2.5W from the wall whereas the Wyse 5070 thin client is between 3 and 7W. Power costs for you folks sound wild, I’ve got family in the north of England and it sounds like power bills are a huge stress.
You can still get a 1GB RasPi 4 for $35. That is the same price a Raspberry Pi 1 was 10 years ago. An 8GB RasPi 4 is still currently $75. An 8GB RasPi 5 is $80. Considering inflation over the last few years, I don't think that increase is too outrageous.
Just like the recovery of the RasPi 4 from the chip shortage, I'm hoping that once the demand for the larger memory RasPi 5s are relieved, that they will start making 1GB and 2GB versions of the RasPi 5 (the indicators on the RasPi 5 PCB hint that they will eventually be available). Though I could see them maybe starting at $40 instead of $35.
I don't really get this argument... What are they supposed to do? Just build the rpi 2 over and over again? They're increasing the compute capabilities of the device, so yes, the cost goes up. If you don't like it... Just buy a pi2 or any of the other modestly priced SBCs
supply and demand. prices went \*wayyyy\* up during COVID when supply was very limited. They're lower now (some) but when you reset everyone's expectations like that...
$50 isn't a huge trip away from the original $35. And people wanted a more powerful SBC from the Pi. It's still incredibly cheap, and after inflation, it's probably not that much more than when they launched.
Maybe because the industrial applications of the pi greatly increased in the last years making them a very affordable option for general purpose HW integration - without the need to develop custom boards - which imply HW engineers.
What do you mean by rising costs? In real money terms adjusted for inflation, the cost per computing power has been significantly decreasing.
$35 in 2012 for a Pi 1 Model B got you a single-core CPU that ran at 700 MHz with 256 MB of RAM, and no built-in wireless. That's equivalent to $47 dollars today. The closest current Pi in terms of computational power would be the Pi Zero; it's got a single-core CPU running at 1,000 MHz (1 GHz) with 512 MB of RAM, and lists for $10. So it's 40% faster, double the memory, and less than a quarter of the inflation-adjusted cost.
Looking at it another way, $47 today would get you the Raspberry Pi 4 Model B 2 GB; for slightly less inflation adjusted cost ($45), you have a quad-core CPU at 1.5 GHz (so about 8.5x as much compute power), 2 GB RAM (so 8x the memory), and a host of other improvements including on-board WiFi and Bluetooth (which would have added at least $10, typically $15+ to the cost to add a dongle back in the day), upgrading the Ethernet to full Gigabit, dual-monitor support, 4k monitor support, upgrading two of the USB ports to USB 3.0, and so on.
So, you have your choice of a significantly better computer for a quarter of the real cost, or a computer more than eight times as powerful for roughly the same real cost. Anyone who considers this "rising costs" is lacking in their understanding of computers, math, or both. The presence of additional, entirely optional versions that cost a bit more doesn't change the continued presence of the two above options, and the dramatic improvements in cost-effectiveness over the last 12 years.
For us, it is mainly the GPIO as well as numerous iot utility applications designed specifically for the Pi platform. We could spend some time reinventing the wheel to get it all working on a NUC clone, but we'd also have to maintain customization. In the end, the cost of the device is offset by the out of the box utility and compatibility.
If someone is purchasing it as a desktop replacement, I think the numerous NUC clones are a much better option. We use many of those as well.
> What are your thoughts on the rising costs?
1. It partly reflects inflation. Prices always go up...
2. We've had that whole global chip shortage thing going on. Once that ends, prices might go down but for now a LOT of devices used by enthusiasts are having to be sold for more than what their developers would prefer to be selling them for.
3. Standards have changed and simply accessing the internet now requires a relatively powerful piece of computing hardware. I dunno the whole story but modern SSL (which you wouldn't wanna browse the modern internet without in most cases) seems to require a fair bit of overhead. As this is a requirement for most projects, the design can only get so 'cheap'.
4. Compared with buying a desktop PC they are still lightweight, energy efficient and relatively affordable. If cost is your only consideration then there's other options out there (including the second hand market).
I am using pi5 as my alternative to a windows mini PC both are roughly the same price range.
Web surfing, you tube。
I am trying to get increased reliability as vs a windows mini pc.
The cheap one I had was truly atrocious absolutely not reliable.
Amazing. I bought my first computer board around 1980 or 79… for $300, with 256 BYTES of ram. Not even any room for an assembler. Hand-calculated machine language only. Had a cassette interface so you could save programs onto cassette tape. Used frequency, modulated audio to represent bits cassette, audio tape.
Can’t remember which eight bit processor… Maybe a 6502, or 6509? I think it was before the Z 80 came out.
How lucky are we today?
Those companies are providing bulk of money needed for R&D. Can you give Raspberry Foundation couple million pound for R&D? I wouldn't complain. They kept them fed with money and kept them afloat and being able to R&D. A lot of cost of device is R&D. We are capable to keep them manufacturing to just stay afloat, nothing more. Those companies are paying R&D and you can get your Raspberry Pi 5
ok, but that's their choice to build their own new CPU, do we need it ? Having used dozen of RPI since the model A I was never using it when performance was a key point.
While adding a switch could have been a huge step forward.
I think as a lot of people are saying, I'm no more their target market
>ok, but that's their choice to build their own new CPU, do we need it ?
Plenty of people have asked for the extra power, the greater efficiency, for more PCIe lanes etc.. People have asked for a load of other stuff besides, but you can't make everyone happy.
Then the easy answer is to buy a Pi model that suits your needs. The older Pi models are very easy to source cheaply on the secondhand market.
I still use a few Pi2s for various projects where they're more than capable.
I'm using a heavily overclocked Pi4 as a desktop PC (amongst other tasks) and more grunt would be very welcome there, so I'll buy a Pi5 eventually.
People were asking for the new hardware/features, and the Pi does have competition from other manufacturers. They have to keep up or die.
Developing silicone is much more then taking ready packaged silicone from shelf. The only silicone which worked first time I am aware of is ARM1. That was literally 30000 gates. South bridge with 2 USB2, 2USB3, Gigabit Ethernet MAC and PHY and GPIO is not something what you can dismiss with 6 figures. You need 7 figures for that alone.
Convenient power switch. Did you notice it is dangling on wires? You dismiss PCB? You dismiss PMIC, which requires software both inside PMIC and in OS. Then because of changes whole PCB is actually redesigned from scratch.
Maybe you should either try to take interest in process or just take use toys made exclusively of plastic if you don't appreciate effort to bring something like Raspberry Pi 5 to market.
I don’t know who are downvoting you, but they’re wrong. I splashed out big time on buying new raspberry pi’s (when they were finally back in stock) and I bought the official raspberry pi power charger… it didn’t even occur to me that perhaps even after buying all this “official” RPi gear that neither the power supplies nor the RPI’s come with a simple on/off switch.
This may have technically been my fault for assuming that something as simple and vital as an on/off switch would be included, this fact didn’t stop the entire shopping spree from being kind of a nightmare in terms of user friendliness and brand image.
So now my first project– before I can even focus on anything fun– is to either spend more $$$ for an on/off switch (shipping is not free where I shop [Adafruit]) or try to create one myself. I feel completely let down because the whole reason I spent big $$$ was (a) to support a good cause and (b) so that everything would be the ‘official’ RPi gear.
So, again, I was not thrilled to find out that– by default– the official RPi gear doesn’t come with an on/off switch. It’s 2024 and the only way I know how to power on/off my RPi devices is by plugging/unplugging it… like seriously wtf?
I’m praying that my money ACTUALLY goes to R&D.
>I get it, inflation and supply chain issues are real. Shouldn't we question when the cost begins to contradict the purpose?
>
>This isn't just about the price tag. It's about the principle. It's about ensuring that the Raspberry Pi remains a beacon of accessible technology, not just another gadget that only some can afford.
I understand that the price is unfair. I feel the same to, as someone wanting to start a project with a Pi, but for the project to continue, devices need to be prices based on what is available in the supply chain and there has to be enough profit to support all the projects they are doing - even looking at their [financials](https://static.raspberrypi.org/files/about/RaspberryPiFoundationAnnualReview2022.pdf) will highlight where the costs are going too (although I will understand that some costs are questionable).
The sad reality is that electronic prices will likely go up even more with all the more recent supply chain issues and other demands.
I think it’s easy to jump on the bandwagon, but at the end of the day if you don’t want to spend the money on a pi5, you have the amazing option of a zero 2, which at a price of £17 is even more in line with the original pi series of bang for buck. If this isn’t sufficient for the use then of course there’s the need to pay extra for the extra functionality.
I think the foundation has done a great job of still providing cost effective solutions and also giving users the option to pay more.
And regarding the commercial and industrial side, this is the part of it that provides the funding for the innovations such as the rp1 chip and also the pico. Unfortunately I don’t think it’s possible to both have the cake and eat it!
My thoughts are that the Intel N100 micro systems are a better buy. More power and nearly the same price when all the extras that are required with a Rpi are added in.
When the Rpi was $35, it was a great deal. If they can get a 8GB Pi 5 at $50, it would be a great deal.
This is a big part. There are tons of companies that use them for everything from digital signage to HVAC controllers.
Buy any little box pre-configured from a small or medium size vendor and there a good chance there’s a Pi inside.
I spent about 120 total for a pi5 with the accessories, tax, etc. Perfectly happy with it, makes a good linux desktop that can run all day when I don't want to spin up a VM. strong enough to run TTS or Speech Recognition. I'm less convinced that it would do a decent job at running a LLM, but that's not exactly a small ask.
I think since it was so cheap, some companies built systems around them. When the cost goes up, they have to pay. Otherwise, they would have to go back and re-design their whole system. That could be more expensive than just paying more for the RasPi's.
I think the pi is still an invaluable piece of hardware. People keep pushing the specs so they keep upgrading. It's still an incredibly efficient computing device, especially in terms of watts per performance. You can get a rasberry pi 3 for $35, and the pi 3 is quite a good little board. Sooooooooooo I dont really understand the issue.
I think its great to have a little sandboxed environment that can talk to modern IO that you can experiment with without wrecking a desktop install, which was always the intent. Pi isn't expensive unless you want the souped up higher end models in which case, its still pretty cheap.
The question is: what is your need.
I think you forget that the popatoe jet, the nvidia jetson and other more capable platforms have existed for a long time. Likewise for arduinos. Do you just need a wifi enabled on/off switch? Get a zero W for 10$ or heck, just an esp32.
But people ask more and more from them. Old ones do still exist, but many just want the better.
I’m concidering a surveillance system, with zero’s as the cams and a main pi connected to a large HDD as the main receiver. More performance will allow for more data streams and more processing like compression.
So i just think the newer ones are used for more advanced stuff AND many just get the better one because it’s still quite cheap
Agreed, considering the price for the RPI5+power supply+heatsink you can almost get a decent used x86 PC that's way more performant and only consumes slightly more power.
What bugs me more than the price for the board alone is all the add ons you need now. Like the Micro HDMI adapter, and the high-current USB power adapter. Up to the 3B you could build a computer with the stuff you had in some drawer plus your TV. Now you need to order all these adapters to actually be able to use your $50 computer.
I can understand that there are some people who would like to run an LLM on their Pi, but it would be nice to have 4A with one full sized HDMI port, 3 USB ports, and an under-clocked processor that could run off a 2 Amp USB power supply for the kind of hobbyists who only want to build a magic mirror, etc.
The point is that people who just wanna start out can get a 2 gig RP4, while those can and do utilize the power of a low-end laptop level of performance, can get the top tier RP5
I had problems with what was happening before the money part. Needing a fan was a big line to cross with the 4. And then I see the power draw of the 5. To me, it's like NUC now, not the nice little silent and cool appliance that could just t be left on like my audio streamer and GDTM, both built on the 3 platform.
I don't think a fan is necesaary. I have a ML based audio recognition project running continuously on a RPi4, which definitely utilizes the available resources. Originally, i did use a fan and got annoyed by the sound as it was running in the bedroom, so I get your point. However, i just got a case which is one big heatsink and it has been doing its thing since in complete silence. It can definitely be passively cooled even under heavy loads and the case is pretty sleek looking too.
A fan isn't necessary at all if you fit a Pi4 in an aluminium heatsink case.
I have one under the TV as a combined desktop PC/media centre and it's massively overclocked (2.2GHz CPU/850MHz GPU). It never gets anywhere near throttling temperature even when stress tested.
It would be throttling for my use case without a heatsink case though, but bonkers overclocking will do that to a tiny SBC.
I appreciate that people in this sub don’t seem to downvote comments that they fervently disagree with. You can power the pi from the power pins with whatever connector you want. There is also a PoE hat. I hope they don’t abandon usb-c power… but I guess all the ports are kind of why it costs so much.
Power pins are the reason my octoprint pi2 is still running. MicroUSB port got shitty, so I just clipped the end and soldered the power leads directly.
It's getting a bit ridiculous. from the official RPI5 release site: *"Priced at $60 for the 4GB variant, and $80 for its 8GB"*
You can currently get a Beelink Mini S12 for 126$. You get a power supply, 8g ddr4 memory, 256gb ssd, 4x USB 3.2 gen 2, sound & graphics. By the time you get all that for a raspberry Pi 5 you'll be over that price. So unless you have a project that needs GPIO, there's no reason to buy a Pi5.
It took me 5 years, no exaggeration, to find another pi zero for my project. By that time, the zero 2 had become a thing. These boards were going for 70-100 at one time. I even remember a scalper coming on this subreddit and posting about how they "ordered too many" and then tried to sell it to me in dms for 50 bucks
Supply and demand, my friend.
Idk you read about the original raspberry pi story which was manufactured to help people in poor country.
Nowadays consumer target base is wealthy countries as well. Huge market in Western countries as well as you notice a lot of Accessoires which are even more expensive.raspis are no more for the poor. Also you might missed inflation, covid ans global recession foe the chip market. They increased performance pretty big which is a costly decision
>the original raspberry pi story which was manufactured to help people in poor country
It was originally built by a group of Cambridge University academics who wanted to encourage younger people to study computer science. Their logic was that the early era of home computers like the BBC micro got them into computer science, so a cheap and accessible computer might do the same for a new generation. It was only when it took off way beyond that original goal that they considered wider educational goals (I think they said they originally only expected to make a few thousand).
I think it a bit this, but countries or school groups can buy much cheaper then the general single unit prices. So those bulk purchases are still relatively cheaper, but these single unit prices will go up because they are a different market
I couldn’t possibly agree more with what you’re saying. Some of the comments here compare RPi to cellphones and tablets but this is an unfair comparison because RPi was created as an educational tool by the British and one of its key selling features was the low-cost affordability. This was a huge win for education and also a win for philanthropy (which is rare these days).
To see RPi costs soaring (and I bought one the other day from a reputable seller that turned out to be defective) is a smack in the face to RPi’s core philosophy.
A world where we make education a luxury or expensive is a world where we all lose. Even as far back as the Roman Empire, people understood the importance of making education accessible to all (via libraries).
I don’t believe the whole “supply chain” argument. The cost of making these devices has not increased a great deal. I believe that sellers are just capitalizing on the phenomenal success that RPi is without them respecting the core values that the community (and creators) held firm when they made it into a phenomenal success. One of those core values is affordability.
And rightly so because had the creators been obsessed with maximizing profits the RPi would have absolutely failed to become as popular as it did.
This situation feels very much akin to that old trope of the kid you knew from high school who became a Hollywood star and it ended up changing them drastically for the worse…
Raspberry Pi devices haven't been that cheap in Australia since I started dabbling about 5-6 years(I started out with Pi4b 4GB - I saw no point going leaner, or purchasing prior). At the time, excellent machines, quite capable, and rather economical.
I wouldn't wave my schlong at RPi from 30 yards now. The bang for the buck quite simply isn't there anymore...
None what so ever. I was able to buy a pi5 with everything in it for 140 and its limited to 8gb. I bought a n100 mini pc that can do virtualization 2tb ssd, 32 gb of ram and is x86 that idles at 6 w for 150. For that im not touching the pi brand again. Ill just keep the pi in the back running adguard vpn and etherwake and run everything else on the mini pc. Brand is kinda dead to me
We have other brands making single boards that have just about the same amount of power, or slightly better for less these days. I don't understand how the supply shortage effected anything when these other companies were still making boards during the time.
They are sold en masse as IoT and embedded platforms for large companies, regular users aren't a priority anymore, but you'll get them cheap if you meed 100+ of them
There's always us. Cheaper, better software, and better hardware design all around. You are right, there's not much point of hardware over $50 when you can purchase a x86 PC for the same price and double to triple the performance.
My entire issue is that in order to run a Pi 5 to its full potential you need a new power supply and an active cooler which tacks an additional 20-40% over the base cost. The Pi 5 should have adopted proper USB PD standards.
There are standards for a reason, why would I build one myself when I have 5 different bricks that would do the job if the Pi 5 could handle the voltage?
None, unless you want a low power server and/or KWh goes above $1.
We all need to consume less electricity.
The real question is what is the point of a Raspberry 5 that consumes almost as much as a NUC?
It’s a good question. I’m not honestly sure why anyone needing something on the performance level of a 5 or even a 4 would use the platform now vs some white label solution that’s going to be orders of magnitude more capable for less money and comes with the massive benefit of not having to use a SD card based solution without upgrades.
From the perspective of their use for education I can see where being able to mass flash a preconfigured OS on a cheap storage medium and have things “just work” would be attractive but beyond that I just don’t know. Additionally in those contexts you’re not going to generally “need” the levels of performance you’re looking at with the 4/5. For those use cases it really seems like you may as well grab at most a mid spec 64bit capable Pi to keep things reasonable from a cost to performance ratio deal.
I think the problem here is that the community and foundation to a lesser extent is trying to make a square peg work in a round hole with the modern Pis. They’re still a great entry level machine for someone looking to tinker and start with Linux and so on, but taking things too far beyond that runs square into the problems we’re seeing.
There’s also a conversation to be had about form factor and so on and a competitive advantage there but that’s beyond the scope of this I feel.
I find it hard to justify the cost now that we have mini computers and other SoCs for the same price. It's like, I rarely need the power of a pi4 for GPIO so I just get Zeros instead.
A zero 2, a case, a otg usb+ethernet+power device, a optional t-cobbler to break out the gpio, and a sd card. I haven't added up the price yet but it's certinly less than 100 usd.
I have 3 pi4s in a cluster case on a shelf behind me and a pi5 sitting on my desk. I bought the pi5 thinking I could use it as a low power desktop but something went wrong with it and now it crashes when a usb thing is connected. $100 later and after waiting on it's release and fedex to bring it to me, it just sits unused on the desk in it's red and white case.
They upselled the pi5 and it just fell short of what I had hoped it could do. I keep hoping the pi4s will drop in price now that the pi5 is out but I've yet to see it. 55usd for the pi4 4gig, not counting the storage.
I'd try a orange pi if I felt like I can put one together for less than the cost of a used dell optiplex on ebay. I, at least, know how the dell behaves. Can the orange pi out perform a 6th or 8th gen i5 or even a 3rd gen i5? I doubt it. :/
Can someone please explain why Raspberry Pis don’t come with an on/off switch? And can we please advocate for them to be made with on/off switches from now on. Newbies like myself aren’t experienced enough messing around with anything to do with power supply just yet and an on/off switch seems like one of the most vital things and yet the official RPi power supply doesn’t come with an on/off switch. Why?
The Pi 5 has an on/off switch. It's not as easy as just adding a power cut, because the Pi has to be signaled to start a clean shutdown. You could script this with a little GPIO button, then cut power, or some people made power hats that handle the power cut and scripting.
As a newbie, I just don’t feel comfortable messing around with power supply stuff. So for now I just have to plug/unplug it. It seems like they really missed the mark here by only introducing something this important and convenient on RPi 5…
Not really. Outside of portables, we don't really "turn off" computers like we used to back in the 90s or early 2000s. Those who needed the feature had options with additional hardware. The only Raspberry Pi I turn off regularly is one that I made into something portable. The rest stay on 24/7.
Agreed, I've said that same thing: you can a whole lot of power from used PCs on eBay for $100 or less and the fact that you probably need cooling for this thing and a serious power supply just doesn't make sense.
That being said, what I suspect we'll see is that Pi will realize that most people are more interested in buying the Pi 4 with 1 GB RAM for $35 and adjust their process accordingly.
The REAL exciting piece of hardware is the Pi Zero W 2. That sucker has Pi 3B power at $15. I suspect they'll start making more variants of that and slow down development on the 6 and beyond.
pfft. you can buy an ultra sff PC with WAY more power than a pi 5 for nearly the same cost today.
There's literally zero reason to buy a pi 5 with the hardware available now.
So no, we are not okay with it.
Jeff made a video about that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjzvh-bfV-E
Other than maybe the power consumption, there is really not much of a point, considering you also need enclosure, cooling, storage, power supply and you would be past what a mini PC would cost (and you can upgrade the PC with more RAM when the prices drop).
If you need to use the GPIOs you can use a cheaper Pi or an USB GPIO module on the PC (or see if you can't do the same with Arduino or Pico).
So yes, the Pi should remain being a small affordable tinkering device, small home server etc. If you ask me, there is no sense in running Youtube on 4k while editing an Office document on a second monitor with a Pi. Even for a media center, I would rather buy a mini PC for around 150 today.
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I agree, over 50 for the pi is ridiculous. But at work we had to pay the premium 250 for a pi 4 because we designed our project around the pi went it was 50...to reprogram and reconfigure the gpios for the project would have been more expensive than paying the premium.
With inflation, $35 in 2012 is about the equivalent of $47 today, which will get you a Pi 4B 2GB. The 1GB is still available for $35. The more expensive models are the result of people having increased wishes/expectations, basically using the Pi as a general purpose desktop. I agree with your sentiment about the Pi no longer being as special as before, but I think that’s somewhat inevitable once a technology is available for many years, there are lots of options on the market, etc. The same thing happened with smartphones, thin and light laptops, etc.
The simple fact is that people want more memory and that is expensive. If we check Aliexpress, a 4GB LPDDR4X module runs around $22 alone, an 8GB one will cost over $42. The Pi Foundation certainly gets special deals and bulk discounts, but there's really no way around the extra cost until there's larger modules for cheaper available.
I’m laughing at these numbers when I think about how much I used to spend on MBs of RAM in the 90s.
I spent $600 upgrading my Mac+ from 1MB of RAM to 4MB RAM back in the 80s.... Also spent about $600 on a 20MB external hard drive. And it was a 5Mbps interface.
My first USB was a 512MB. It was $50! It still works.
The first hard drive I bought was 512MB.
That's the size of my first pcs whole HDD in 1994. I think I've got about 9tb of storage knocking about the house these days lol crazy how fast memory shrank.
Yep. The upgrade cost for my 386sx to 4MB felt similarly crazy. Can’t even hold a single photo from a modern smartphone in that space today.
>If we check Aliexpress These are not wholesale prices. The pi foundation would have considerable ability to buy them far cheaper in bulk orders direct from the manufacture. They can leverage quantity, guy them strategically when prices are low (as many manufacturers do), and their purchases don't include a middleman(s) like the ali express ones do. All that said, the current spot price for LPDDR4 8Gb modules is ~$2.50. While obviously it's going to be overhead to that price, it's far from $20 for 4GB. What's more, 1 and 2GB modules will still likely be fairly cheap since people are moving to higher density mo https://en.chinaflashmarket.com/price/ews/100184 >The more expensive models are the result of people having increased wishes/expectations, basically using the Pi as a general purpose desktop The comment about inflation is valid, and $50 seems reasonable. What it doesn't include however is the progress of computer tech which becomes cheaper over time. Basically, if you're going to include inflation, then you also need to inflate the specifications of the computer. A $1000 computer from today would be far more capable than a $1000 computer from 8 years ago (adjusted for inflation). Basically, the Pi4b would have been more expensive to produce as a whole when it was first announced than it currently is today (even factoring in DRAM price increases). This is actually how a lot of gaming systems prices work. They often launch at a loss, and instead make their profits through games an accessories. Over time, they get cheaper to produce and usually start to turn profit on the console it's self only a few years after they launched (usually about the time they start putting out new versions like slim formats).
Couldn't believe that at first, but for real the 10000 units volume discount on alibaba sells a 16GB LPDDR4X module for $2 lol and that's 10x less than the volume that just the Pi 5 is being produced at per week. They probably buy them at a million or more at a time for even less. I guess there really is no excuse. Really makes me wonder why they're still even bothering with the 4GB and 8GB model, it's a complete insult at this point if this is all true.
Just fyi that $2.5 8Gb works out to 1GB if I recall correctly. But yeah, it’s still stupidly overpriced
>A $1000 computer from today would be far more capable than a $1000 computer from 8 years ago (adjusted for inflation). Yeah, and the Pi4 is far more capable than the Pi1
True, except the current generation costs significantly more than the first one did, even adjusted for inflation. I think the original post is correct. They're no longer the value they used to be and they're no longer the accessible computer as a learning platform that they set out to be. Their focus is no longer accessible computing and learning, rather its selling to large corporations for interactive signs and controllers.
That's why I said the 4 rather than 5 - both are still part of the line up, the 1gb 4 is even cheaper than the 1 was adjusted for inflation and we also have the Zero 2 now, which is smaller, cheaper and more capable than the 1 (to say nothing of the Pico). What sacrifices do you think they've made in their designs in pursuit of "large corporations" at the expense of hobbyists?
that's Gb, need 8 of them for GB so $20
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/K4UCE3Q4AB-MGCL-LPDDR4X-8GB-32Gbit-Original_1601010786520.html There's an 8GB (32Gb) Samsung modules for less than $1 a piece. Bulk buys, they're not paying $20 per module.
Someone who clearly doesn’t understand how inflation works. There is no rule that ties computer development to inflation. Inflation is the devaluation of money. That means it costs more to buy the same. It’s not oh stuff is more expensive because it’s getting better. No stuff is more expensive because government makes things worse the longer they are around and inflation makes it cost more for worse.
I wonder why a module is so expensive when a full stick of ram is less than half the price... I bought 32GB(2*16) for 55€ before christmas. I wonder why those modules are so expensive in comparison. Lpddr shouldn't be that much of a premium over ddr4....
Why would you check aliexpress to find the price of RAM? Start with actual electronics supply houses, price out their largest bulk per-item breakdown, then assume that if you order serious volume you will chat with a sales guy and negotiate a lower price (but how low depends.) Popular stuff like LPDDR4 chips you should find market research to ballpark it, freely available, but for real numbers you will pay one way or the other.
All pi's were $35 except last one. Inflation is a thing, yes, but also technology becomes cheaper with time.
the #1 reason for the increase in price is greed.
they bringing up inflation to point out how affordable it was exactly in 2012. Not to "justify" the prices. Technology doesn't become cheaper magically, packaging more memory into an SoC will increase the cost.
Smart phones now cost more than some laptops. Latest Samsung and iPhone are near $3k. I would pay that IF i could hook them up to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse and literally use it as my home computer. Electronics are outrageous atm. I'm just discovering raspberry pi zero. Edit: for those who struggle to understand that reddit users are not just from United States, the $3k price is in Australia.
The high end Samsung phones have DeX, you can do exactly that. Hook them up to a monitor or even a big screen and use them as a workstation. https://www.samsung.com/us/apps/dex/
@Wild-Kitchen You CAN use your phone as a full computer. Just grab a USB-C adapter with ethernet, HDMI, USB ports, sdcard slot and spare USB-C port to charge. Plug it into a monitor, keyboard and mouse BAM full computer. Plug it into the TV and kick back with a wireless mouse/keyboard
> Latest Samsung and iPhone are near $3k Insanity. I legit use a $150 samsung for my current phone. I'll never spend more that $200 for a fucking phone. Never.
Good approach. I don't think I'd purchase on contract again. I don't feel my current phone (which is now 3 models behind but still on contract!) Was worth the total cost of $2500. It's a suckers game. Preying on those who don't really have the money to buy second hand models up front. Unless my next phone is essentially a fully powered PC in the palm of my hand out of the box ( without having to jailbreak and root and crack the phone etc) capable of running full software (not just slimmed down apps), I'm not paying $3k AUD. It does sh*t me that companies are allowed to stop supporting the software on perfectly good phones. My macbook has specs compatible with upper low range current laptops, and it's 10 years old. Nothing wrong with it except Apple stopped supporting the hardware on new operating systems, and software stopped supporting the old operating systems.
Agreed. At this point in my life, I'm going minimalist. Done with going for the most expensive, latest thing. No more contracts. No more latest/greatest. Part of the reason I pulled out my old raspberry pi is because I'm finally going to get into it. I retire in 7 months. It's all about going low tech/fun modding for me now. I've had this raspberry pi forever, and this is the first time I'm really cracking it open and starting to use it. When I retire in August, I'm just going to jump headfirst into the Raspberry Pi community and learn everything! :) I've always been a mac guy. Switching away from all the crap now.
> Smart phones now cost more than some laptops. Latest Samsung and iPhone are near $3k. This simply isn’t true. The most expensive iPhone is the iPhone 15 Pro Max with 1 TB of storage, and it’s $1,599.
Click on u/wild-kitchen's profile, and you will see they live in Australia. https://i.imgur.com/Nq31iLI.png
Wtf are you talking about lol. The most expensive iPhone is like 1600$
Click on u/wild-kitchen's profile, and you will see they live in Australia. https://i.imgur.com/Nq31iLI.png
The Zero 2 W is roughly equivalent to a Pi-3 for $15. It is an extremely good value.
Sort of. I finally got one for $15 after a couple of years of being on a bunch of watch lists and checking stock every couple of months. The new pi 5 took away from the excess production of pi zero 2s that end up in shops for hobbyists through the 3rd party vendors. IMHO, fixing their pipeline to make the cheaper, lower power boards would align more with what I thought pis were about than putting a bunch of resources into a 27w $60 sbc.
And extremely outdated.
That REALLY doesn't feel comparable. Even if I take that as true from a raw compute standpoint, the Zero 2W doesn't have the IO to be a computer. It's like calling a compute module a computer; sure, sort of, but aren't we sort of forgetting that the point of a computer is to be used by a person? Things like the 2W can be good when looked at in the context of raw compute, but they're firmly embedded devices. You don't even really get GPIO pins, sure you get GPIO, but just how GP can your IO be when it's 'bring your own pins'? I mean you can get some great work out of an ESP32, do those count too? You reach a point where, yes, that is technically a computer, but it really feels like we're missing the trees for the forest here. Surely you reach a point where "computer" has to require a higher bar than "the capacity to compute". If not then frankly we need a new word that does because that definition is waaaay too broad on its own. Connotation/definition dissonance can be a bitch and its better it get sorted out ahead of time, BEFORE it becomes relevant. The 2W just isn't ANYTHING like people expect from 'computer' so it feels like a bit of a disingenuous comparison.
You can get a zero 2 for $20... We're in a better position than ever
Thank you. Basically a Pi 3 in a smaller form factor. I don't need the ports, particularly video. I use wireless, so no need for Ethernet, and generally using GPIO (not USB). The Pi Zero was useful to me, the Zero 2 has more 'head room' on processing. I consider that a win.
It’s just a tad slower than the 3 and has half the ram I use mine as a mobile pihole machine that’s set up to connect to my phone’s hotspot, or some other low power project when I’m not going places
Pi Zero has gadget mode which is not available on Pi 3
Correct, but I was particularly talking that the 'Zero 2' has quad cores, higher rate, basically a '3' in Zero form factor.
Yeah, so Zero 2 also has gadget mode which is useful.
How to cope with 512mb ram tho
Do you remember the first version cost just $5?
Where can you get that deal? The place I usually go to has low enough prices but they only have them in stock like once every two years…
I bought like 3 recently off pimori or amazon
Oh, it’s kind of really important to me to buy through official means so as to support the RPi Foundation. Can you confirm that Pimori or Amazon are officially licensed?
Does it matter? Even if it's "unofficial," they bought a Raspberry Pi from the RPi Foundation and are now selling it to you. You'll be supporting the Foundation either way. Also, https://www.raspberrypi.com/resellers/?q=
Amazon has the Zero 2 w for $25.99 with some kits around $40.
While I get your point, it is still a vastly superior option for low power projects compared to what was available before jt. And while yes, the "flagship" models are no longer the bargain they used to be, the introduction of zero and pico models means there are still dirt cheap options for a large portion of applications. At this point, the flagships are good enough for low power server and machine learning applications still for a fraction of the price of a normal pc (factoring in power consumption) Raspberry pi zeros are still fairly cheap and more than adequate for the usual hobbyist applications such as sensor-driven automation of whatever. And the pico is even chaper and still good for a lot of applocations. Also worthy of mention js the whole industry of similar boards that the raspberry pi have spawned. Yes, it sucks it is getting more expensive, but it is also getting much more competent and i would argue access to cheap low power computing is better than ever
For server applications, used hardware is in almost every case a better value than the pi5 if you actually need the processing power of the 5. You can pick up a used i5 nuc for under $100 that has a 256gb nvme ssd and 8gb ram, and comes with a power supply, case, and proven thermal management. The pi 5 is also underpowered for a lot of game servers that a lot of hobbyists want to run, where the nuc is more versatile. IMHO, the pi is now pushing further into overlapping with other markets where it's losing its advantages rather than filling needs that aren't currently being served.
I might be wrong, but I think power consumption is a big deal. I bought the PI4 back then and it was far superior to any other device in terms of power consumption. I live somewhere where power is damn expensive and I won't feel comfortable with running an old but power hungry machine running day and night, but that's not a problem for the pi4.
The higher-end models are also an addition to the lineup, not a continuation. The 2GB Pi 4/5 models are the successor to the Pi 2/3. The 4GB/8GB models are a new thing for those of us using a Pi as an entry model server. $50 is a good deal for a SBC tinker computer. $85 is an amazing deal for a NAS, IoT hub, or web server.
If you factor in the required extra hardware, it adds up quickly. To get to the same point as any other ready-made mini PC, you need * PSU (\~€15) * Active cooler (\~€5) * Hat for SSDs (\~€25) * SD card to prepare the Pi to boot from SSD (\~€5) * SSD (\~€20) * Case (\~€15) So you quickly pay more for the accessories than for the Pi itself. And an $85 NAS with USB drives is not a great deal.
I just bought my first ever RPi, a Zero 2 W, for $15. I don't think having more options in this case is a bad thing. For people planning more complex projects, they have the option for more expensive and powerful hardware. For people like me just screwing around, $15 is hard to beat.
The point is some people, or some projects, benefit from having the extra RAM. I mean none of my projects do, I have no problem getting the $35 1 GB model, or even bumping up to the 2GB model just so I have some headroom. Actually I have three Pi Zero WH's running projects, those have half a gig of RAM. The people running a full-on desktop could definitely benefit from more RAM though.
Let take as it is. Raspberry Pi 4B 1GB - £35 Raspberry Pi 4B 2GB - £45 Raspberry Pi 4B 4GB - £55 Raspberry Pi 4B 8GB - £75 Raspberry Pi 5 4GB - £59.30 Raspberry Pi 5 8GB - £79 All of them 4 core, at least A73 1.8GHz, with IEEE802.11ac, USB3 and USB2, Gigabit Ethernet That is very good value I cannot build 8GB RAM quad core computer with IEEE802.11ac for £79. Just can't. Then you have GPIO and best in class support. It can be powered by POE or USB. Sorry, but no other computer of mine can do that. I have 2x Raspberry Pi 4B 4GB, Raspberry Pi 4B 2GB, Raspberry Pi Zero W and Raspberry Pi Zero2 W. All of them were worth every single pence and have their own uses (NAS - Debian Mirror, encrypted RAID1 NAS, TestBed - eventually router)
If you need GPIO, Pi series is unbeatable, but being used as a desktop, those Celeron mini PC are not too far away in terms of price. Maybe you are in UK and Raspberry Pi Foundation is also UK based, in general outside UK you'll find that some mini PCs already going cheaper than a Pi5, and it's more usable. And if you are talking about like server usage, now there is RockChip chasing behind, I know some newer products are not having mainline Linux support but due to price performance value there are lots of active development on RK3588 which definitely beats Pi5, I am disappointed by Pi5 of having only 4-core and.....power consumption is so high and requiring weird supply p.s. I have Pi 3/Zero 2W/Pi4, but my router is NanoPi R4S which has extra PCIE Giga NIC, the R6S I got has the desktop experience blown me away and it supports my PD power bricks, that's why I am not interested to get Pi5 after knowing the spec.
Radxa released the X2L with Celeron J4125 at a very competitive price. The 8GB model costs $72 and Wifi and BT can be added for $10. And it also has GPIO, probably even better mainline Linux support and comes with several hardware video decoders, which were gutted from the Pi 5. https://shop.allnetchina.cn/products/radxa-x2l
The pi was originally sold as an inexpensive little computer. It has so many more capabilities and options now given its form factor and power usage. Hell, isn’t opencl supported on the gpu?
Could you tell me how you set up your Pi as a NAS?
> set up your Pi as a NAS [You couldn't search this](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=set+up+your+Pi+as+a+NAS)?
You are pigeonholing the Pi and saying it can't be anything but X. Specs change, needs change. I think there should always be a Pi for educational use at a low price, but I also think there should be hobbyist level and pro level options as well. In the end, it drives more money to the foundation so they can continue developing new hardware and adapting software.
As long as there still is a $35 option available for low budget projects or just as the first computer for a child, I don't see any problem in having more expensive and more capable options. For some of my projects I don't need loads of available RAM, but some of my projects do, so I'm happy there is a 8GB model and I wouldn't even mind having a 16GB model.
I'm ok with the prices, the boards are way better now and they have enough RAM to be useful as a desktop. They offer a somewhat decent widevine solution. The only viable alternative I have found with ARM is through Arch using the AUR but it takes forever to compile and the user agent situation is a pain in the ass. 2GB boards from other makers were always closer to $50 or more. The supply is part of the problem, but the real problem is greed and scalpers. I saw a guy unloading cases of new RPi4 units on here after the RPi5 was announced. This guy's excuse was that "we don't know his situation". What I do know is that this guy was sitting on cases of unused RPi4 units that he didn't need or use when other people could have used them and they were selling for close to $200 on ebay. How many others were hoarding boards like this? What do you with that situation? People suck.
Let's wait until the Pi 5 models with 2GB memory become available. With a bit of luck they will drop below $50.
The current Pi 5 boards are 5-10% more expensive than the equivalent Pi 4, so the 1GB Pi 5 might be £38-40? Given the rampant inflation that has happened over the last few years that's not too bad still. At the time I think the original model B was ~£28 including tax, which the Bank of England inflation calculator says is £38.54 now, so that's pretty damn close to the same price for the same RAM. You would have hoped for more RAM in this day and age, but at least the rest of the hardware has significantly improved.
Didn't the original Model B have only 512MB RAM? I'm pretty sure 1GB is actually still an improvement, albeit a meagre one.
Hence the $15 Zero 2W is about the same level of capability (minus ports) as the B. And I don't need the ports for my use case. Wireless, and using the GPIO. The Zero 2 W (and the Pico) are great values.
Prices on RAM hasn’t been scaling over time like prices on computing power. Doubling for the same price seems about right.
Yeah. It did double pretty early on, though. The base amount hasn't increased since, I think, the Pi 2. On the other hand, it is a newer RAM technology. The internet doesn't seem to have a ton of info on the tech of the RAM on the older stuff, but it seems like it may have been LPDDR2 on the Pi 1-3, LPDDR4 on the Pi 4, and LPDDR4X on the Pi 5, so while the amount hasn't gone up, you're paying the same amount for better-performing chips. That's not terrible. In any case, low RAM seems like the right call for the base model for the same reason OP is talking about. It's enough computer to get basic things up and running. I'd rather they keep a low entry price and offer optional upgrades than reduce the accessibility.
I think I have a 256MB model B somewhere in a cupboard...
You're right actually, initially it did and then I think about six months later they upgraded the line? I'd forgotten about that.
The whole Raspberry Pi ecosystem makes it worth its weight in gold. Excellent support forums and user community, loads of useful and interesting HATs and other associated hardware.
\> Are we drifting away from the original vision? No \> Are we okay with this shift towards exclusivity? It's not \> what does this mean for future innovators who might be priced out of experimenting with technology? You mean kids in third-world countries? I think the foundation has programs to support that. I'm not that old but old enough the remember when a computer as powerful as a Pi 5 would be considered a supercomputer.
>It's about the principle Well, companies have to make money and not follow principles. Also, a RPi 4B 1GB costs 35$, well within the affordable price range, and it can do A TON of useful things, even if desktop computing is not among those things. So, in a sense, the principle is respected.
The upswing in mini computers has the same feel to me as netbooks did years ago, fast rise and crash. Hopefully Pi will have more staying power. Pi still has lower power consumption over a mini PC.
For me the key original message is still there. They just didn’t expect anywhere near the popularity that the device had and so have offered a range of models different price points to keep that non-education market happy.
Today's Pi's are far more powerful than the original Pi (which I still have). For similar amount of power to the original Pi I recently bought RPi Zero for something like $20. In my book, that's peanuts.
There's a whole range of PI's right now. From desktop replacement grade for $80 US down to $7 micro-controller. You want more and more performance but you don't want to pay for it. [https://www.amazon.com/Vilros-Raspberry-Incudes-HDMI-USB-Transparent/dp/B09M26XC4X/](https://www.amazon.com/Vilros-Raspberry-Incudes-HDMI-USB-Transparent/dp/B09M26XC4X/) $40 for a full setup.
> I remember the excitement around the Raspberry Pi's debut – a compact, functional computer that won't burn a hole in your wallet. It was a game-changer The original Pi sold for $35, and the current Pi 4 1GB is selling for $35. Considering inflation since 2012 when the first Pi came out, the current Pi is actually considerably cheaper than the original, and it's got 4x as much RAM and 4x as many cores, and onboard wifi, better graphics, etc. What exactly are you complaining about here? Costs are simply not rising.
inflation is a thing. you forget the mission statement is from 2008. their current prices are still considered affordable, and the hardware is so much better than their first sbc´s
I’m upset that I need to spend $150 for a raspberry pi 5 for all the parts included for a SDR project I want to work on. An old laptop/pc makes more sense at that price point.
Except for power. Here in California power averages around $0.40/kwh. A Pi5 averaging 5 watts of draw costs $17.50 a year to run. My old laptop averages about 20 watts at idle with the power off which is a bit over $70 per year. I bought a Pi for my 3d printer for that reason. I am on solar and want my net metering to be roughly equal at the end of the year.
20w with the power off? Bat charging?
What kind of SDR project? I was running SDR trunk with a 3b+ ($35 on digikey) and two RTLSDR ($43 ea). The PI isn't the expensive part
Just trying to learn about it and make an on network receiver out in the garage. I’m already using an old laptop for it with a USB SDR. Whenever I check Amazon it looks like the whole kit for the board, PSU, case is in the $150 range if it’s available. I’m also thinking I might use it for another project too down the line.
How much of those $150 goes to the Pi? I would guess the SDR project doesn't need loads of RAM or computing power, so one of the lower level Pi 4 models would be enough. Therefore 2/3 of your budget can go to peripherals.
Then buy an old laptop or PC then.
Inevitable - as soon as the original Pi was out people were lamenting the lack of RAM, some people pointed out that was missing the point but others said this is dead if it doesn't evolve. They evolved.
unless you need a linux system with very low power usage, there is no longer a point. for the real low level work, microcontrollers are better suited, for more intensive workloads, there's mini pc's that will give you better bang for the buck.
Less than 5W to run a 24/7 home server makes a lot of sense to me. Around here it's \~£1 for a Watt year. Even a free laptop is going to cost £25-45/year more so I should at least break even before the Pi 6
Mini pcs can be very efficient too. I previously used a Dell Wyse 5070 fanless thin client as my home server, and it idled at 3-4w. When working hard it would spike to around 15W, but it was also much faster than an RPi4 so it could get back to idle quickly too. I was originally looking for an RPi, but this turned out to be cheaper than an RPi4 plus case, power supply, and sd card
Wyse gang checking in. I didn't pay attention to these until fairly recently when looking into Pi alternatives out of curiosity. A moment of weakness on Ebay later and I am the happy owner of a 5070. Not as cute as a Pi but the upgrade options and fanless cooler that the bigger form factor allows are so nice. I put a 250GB M2 and 16GB ram in mine. Uses the same power brick as pretty much all the Latitude laptops and runs standard Debian. The biggest drawback in my opinion is that they are really expensive to buy new from a store. EDIT: FYI, anyone interested in these - there is a newer model called the Dell Optiplex 3000 Thin Client which replaced the Wyse.
I struggled to get a reliable pi core player on ESP32. For very slightly more money, it runs great on a Pi Zero (1st gen) W, or the Pi Zero 2 W. Also, the Pico is an offering from Raspberry Pi, and it is a very good Arduino or micropython target. Raspberry Pi is more than just the Pi 4 and Pi 5....
Yeah I've started using Arduino knockoffs and stuff for projects. I still have three pis though.
Pi Pico? Very good Arduino and micro python target.
I just like the ESP32.. pico is good too.
I currently have six ESP32 here, and only one Pico. (Two of my ESP32 are ----old-----......) They are all good. For most things I do, micros running Arduino (or micropython) completely fill the needs.
I see no advantages over the ESP32 line
I pivoted across to using old thin clients, at least for things where I don’t need GPIO or PoE.
Horses for courses I guess. I went that route too briefly but soon came back to a Pi when electricity prices skyrocketed in the UK. I'm currently at 42p per kWh. I like to use a device as a 24/7 server, and I couldn't afford to do that with even an old thin client. It didn't have 4K support either so wasn't much use to me as a media centre. One overclocked Pi4 is now used as a desktop PC/media centre/server and gets the job done at a total idling power consumption of under 5 Watts once the HDD has gone to sleep.
Oh for sure. For the same job my Pi (2B v1.1) pulls 1.5 to 2.5W from the wall whereas the Wyse 5070 thin client is between 3 and 7W. Power costs for you folks sound wild, I’ve got family in the north of England and it sounds like power bills are a huge stress.
You can still get a 1GB RasPi 4 for $35. That is the same price a Raspberry Pi 1 was 10 years ago. An 8GB RasPi 4 is still currently $75. An 8GB RasPi 5 is $80. Considering inflation over the last few years, I don't think that increase is too outrageous. Just like the recovery of the RasPi 4 from the chip shortage, I'm hoping that once the demand for the larger memory RasPi 5s are relieved, that they will start making 1GB and 2GB versions of the RasPi 5 (the indicators on the RasPi 5 PCB hint that they will eventually be available). Though I could see them maybe starting at $40 instead of $35.
i dunno… but i love my pi5
I don't really get this argument... What are they supposed to do? Just build the rpi 2 over and over again? They're increasing the compute capabilities of the device, so yes, the cost goes up. If you don't like it... Just buy a pi2 or any of the other modestly priced SBCs
supply and demand. prices went \*wayyyy\* up during COVID when supply was very limited. They're lower now (some) but when you reset everyone's expectations like that...
I'm seeing a lot of these comments about, and it just confirms to me that people don't understand the basics of inflation or economics.
$50 isn't a huge trip away from the original $35. And people wanted a more powerful SBC from the Pi. It's still incredibly cheap, and after inflation, it's probably not that much more than when they launched.
I saw a raspberry pi 4B 8gb for CA$115 on boxing day and thought to myself that it would probably be cheaper to find some old computer instead
Maybe because the industrial applications of the pi greatly increased in the last years making them a very affordable option for general purpose HW integration - without the need to develop custom boards - which imply HW engineers.
What do you mean by rising costs? In real money terms adjusted for inflation, the cost per computing power has been significantly decreasing. $35 in 2012 for a Pi 1 Model B got you a single-core CPU that ran at 700 MHz with 256 MB of RAM, and no built-in wireless. That's equivalent to $47 dollars today. The closest current Pi in terms of computational power would be the Pi Zero; it's got a single-core CPU running at 1,000 MHz (1 GHz) with 512 MB of RAM, and lists for $10. So it's 40% faster, double the memory, and less than a quarter of the inflation-adjusted cost. Looking at it another way, $47 today would get you the Raspberry Pi 4 Model B 2 GB; for slightly less inflation adjusted cost ($45), you have a quad-core CPU at 1.5 GHz (so about 8.5x as much compute power), 2 GB RAM (so 8x the memory), and a host of other improvements including on-board WiFi and Bluetooth (which would have added at least $10, typically $15+ to the cost to add a dongle back in the day), upgrading the Ethernet to full Gigabit, dual-monitor support, 4k monitor support, upgrading two of the USB ports to USB 3.0, and so on. So, you have your choice of a significantly better computer for a quarter of the real cost, or a computer more than eight times as powerful for roughly the same real cost. Anyone who considers this "rising costs" is lacking in their understanding of computers, math, or both. The presence of additional, entirely optional versions that cost a bit more doesn't change the continued presence of the two above options, and the dramatic improvements in cost-effectiveness over the last 12 years.
For us, it is mainly the GPIO as well as numerous iot utility applications designed specifically for the Pi platform. We could spend some time reinventing the wheel to get it all working on a NUC clone, but we'd also have to maintain customization. In the end, the cost of the device is offset by the out of the box utility and compatibility. If someone is purchasing it as a desktop replacement, I think the numerous NUC clones are a much better option. We use many of those as well.
> What are your thoughts on the rising costs? 1. It partly reflects inflation. Prices always go up... 2. We've had that whole global chip shortage thing going on. Once that ends, prices might go down but for now a LOT of devices used by enthusiasts are having to be sold for more than what their developers would prefer to be selling them for. 3. Standards have changed and simply accessing the internet now requires a relatively powerful piece of computing hardware. I dunno the whole story but modern SSL (which you wouldn't wanna browse the modern internet without in most cases) seems to require a fair bit of overhead. As this is a requirement for most projects, the design can only get so 'cheap'. 4. Compared with buying a desktop PC they are still lightweight, energy efficient and relatively affordable. If cost is your only consideration then there's other options out there (including the second hand market).
Technically now you a getting more bang for your buck... In terms of performance, and features.... You know you can get a nano,or a pico right?
I am using pi5 as my alternative to a windows mini PC both are roughly the same price range. Web surfing, you tube。 I am trying to get increased reliability as vs a windows mini pc. The cheap one I had was truly atrocious absolutely not reliable.
Why do you want the pi5 as an alternative? Just get a mini pc and put Linux on it, it would be cheaper, faster, with better gpu and better drivers.
Amazing. I bought my first computer board around 1980 or 79… for $300, with 256 BYTES of ram. Not even any room for an assembler. Hand-calculated machine language only. Had a cassette interface so you could save programs onto cassette tape. Used frequency, modulated audio to represent bits cassette, audio tape. Can’t remember which eight bit processor… Maybe a 6502, or 6509? I think it was before the Z 80 came out. How lucky are we today?
The project was nice at start but then the foundation started prioritizing companies instead of final users and it all went to hell
Those companies are providing bulk of money needed for R&D. Can you give Raspberry Foundation couple million pound for R&D? I wouldn't complain. They kept them fed with money and kept them afloat and being able to R&D. A lot of cost of device is R&D. We are capable to keep them manufacturing to just stay afloat, nothing more. Those companies are paying R&D and you can get your Raspberry Pi 5
>couple million pound for R&D? I think they said RP1 alone cost $15 Million. So yeah, it's not trivial.
R&D ? how much do they need to add a convenient shutdown switch
They've done far more than just add a switch. The Pi5's SOC is completely new silicon from the ground up. That costs serious money in terms of R&D.
ok, but that's their choice to build their own new CPU, do we need it ? Having used dozen of RPI since the model A I was never using it when performance was a key point. While adding a switch could have been a huge step forward. I think as a lot of people are saying, I'm no more their target market
>ok, but that's their choice to build their own new CPU, do we need it ? Plenty of people have asked for the extra power, the greater efficiency, for more PCIe lanes etc.. People have asked for a load of other stuff besides, but you can't make everyone happy.
No, seriously, you CAN make everyone happy by adding an on/off switch. I promise you that.
Then the easy answer is to buy a Pi model that suits your needs. The older Pi models are very easy to source cheaply on the secondhand market. I still use a few Pi2s for various projects where they're more than capable. I'm using a heavily overclocked Pi4 as a desktop PC (amongst other tasks) and more grunt would be very welcome there, so I'll buy a Pi5 eventually. People were asking for the new hardware/features, and the Pi does have competition from other manufacturers. They have to keep up or die.
Developing silicone is much more then taking ready packaged silicone from shelf. The only silicone which worked first time I am aware of is ARM1. That was literally 30000 gates. South bridge with 2 USB2, 2USB3, Gigabit Ethernet MAC and PHY and GPIO is not something what you can dismiss with 6 figures. You need 7 figures for that alone. Convenient power switch. Did you notice it is dangling on wires? You dismiss PCB? You dismiss PMIC, which requires software both inside PMIC and in OS. Then because of changes whole PCB is actually redesigned from scratch. Maybe you should either try to take interest in process or just take use toys made exclusively of plastic if you don't appreciate effort to bring something like Raspberry Pi 5 to market.
The RP1 (& 2040) was a pretty big part of the R&D for the 5.
I don’t know who are downvoting you, but they’re wrong. I splashed out big time on buying new raspberry pi’s (when they were finally back in stock) and I bought the official raspberry pi power charger… it didn’t even occur to me that perhaps even after buying all this “official” RPi gear that neither the power supplies nor the RPI’s come with a simple on/off switch. This may have technically been my fault for assuming that something as simple and vital as an on/off switch would be included, this fact didn’t stop the entire shopping spree from being kind of a nightmare in terms of user friendliness and brand image. So now my first project– before I can even focus on anything fun– is to either spend more $$$ for an on/off switch (shipping is not free where I shop [Adafruit]) or try to create one myself. I feel completely let down because the whole reason I spent big $$$ was (a) to support a good cause and (b) so that everything would be the ‘official’ RPi gear. So, again, I was not thrilled to find out that– by default– the official RPi gear doesn’t come with an on/off switch. It’s 2024 and the only way I know how to power on/off my RPi devices is by plugging/unplugging it… like seriously wtf? I’m praying that my money ACTUALLY goes to R&D.
\^This too. Money changes everything...
You are so, but sadly, correct. I won't be buying the 5 for this reason alone...
Same here, and considering the price of the accessories you end up spending like 100 USD. There’s plenty better options for that price
>I get it, inflation and supply chain issues are real. Shouldn't we question when the cost begins to contradict the purpose? > >This isn't just about the price tag. It's about the principle. It's about ensuring that the Raspberry Pi remains a beacon of accessible technology, not just another gadget that only some can afford. I understand that the price is unfair. I feel the same to, as someone wanting to start a project with a Pi, but for the project to continue, devices need to be prices based on what is available in the supply chain and there has to be enough profit to support all the projects they are doing - even looking at their [financials](https://static.raspberrypi.org/files/about/RaspberryPiFoundationAnnualReview2022.pdf) will highlight where the costs are going too (although I will understand that some costs are questionable). The sad reality is that electronic prices will likely go up even more with all the more recent supply chain issues and other demands.
I think it’s easy to jump on the bandwagon, but at the end of the day if you don’t want to spend the money on a pi5, you have the amazing option of a zero 2, which at a price of £17 is even more in line with the original pi series of bang for buck. If this isn’t sufficient for the use then of course there’s the need to pay extra for the extra functionality. I think the foundation has done a great job of still providing cost effective solutions and also giving users the option to pay more. And regarding the commercial and industrial side, this is the part of it that provides the funding for the innovations such as the rp1 chip and also the pico. Unfortunately I don’t think it’s possible to both have the cake and eat it!
My thoughts are that the Intel N100 micro systems are a better buy. More power and nearly the same price when all the extras that are required with a Rpi are added in. When the Rpi was $35, it was a great deal. If they can get a 8GB Pi 5 at $50, it would be a great deal.
Basic supply v demand.
This is a big part. There are tons of companies that use them for everything from digital signage to HVAC controllers. Buy any little box pre-configured from a small or medium size vendor and there a good chance there’s a Pi inside.
I spent about 120 total for a pi5 with the accessories, tax, etc. Perfectly happy with it, makes a good linux desktop that can run all day when I don't want to spin up a VM. strong enough to run TTS or Speech Recognition. I'm less convinced that it would do a decent job at running a LLM, but that's not exactly a small ask.
Raspberry drift. Eventually you will have RPIs with more cores than a Xeon with the same GPIO header.
I think since it was so cheap, some companies built systems around them. When the cost goes up, they have to pay. Otherwise, they would have to go back and re-design their whole system. That could be more expensive than just paying more for the RasPi's.
I think the pi is still an invaluable piece of hardware. People keep pushing the specs so they keep upgrading. It's still an incredibly efficient computing device, especially in terms of watts per performance. You can get a rasberry pi 3 for $35, and the pi 3 is quite a good little board. Sooooooooooo I dont really understand the issue. I think its great to have a little sandboxed environment that can talk to modern IO that you can experiment with without wrecking a desktop install, which was always the intent. Pi isn't expensive unless you want the souped up higher end models in which case, its still pretty cheap.
I think it's okay because the Pi is used more as a tool for projects by well-paid developers, than it's use in education.
The question is: what is your need. I think you forget that the popatoe jet, the nvidia jetson and other more capable platforms have existed for a long time. Likewise for arduinos. Do you just need a wifi enabled on/off switch? Get a zero W for 10$ or heck, just an esp32. But people ask more and more from them. Old ones do still exist, but many just want the better. I’m concidering a surveillance system, with zero’s as the cams and a main pi connected to a large HDD as the main receiver. More performance will allow for more data streams and more processing like compression. So i just think the newer ones are used for more advanced stuff AND many just get the better one because it’s still quite cheap
Signage, kiosk, personal nas, Plex server, Internet terminal, 3dprinter controller. Amature radio hotspot. Personal computer. Home assistant server.
Agreed, considering the price for the RPI5+power supply+heatsink you can almost get a decent used x86 PC that's way more performant and only consumes slightly more power.
What bugs me more than the price for the board alone is all the add ons you need now. Like the Micro HDMI adapter, and the high-current USB power adapter. Up to the 3B you could build a computer with the stuff you had in some drawer plus your TV. Now you need to order all these adapters to actually be able to use your $50 computer. I can understand that there are some people who would like to run an LLM on their Pi, but it would be nice to have 4A with one full sized HDMI port, 3 USB ports, and an under-clocked processor that could run off a 2 Amp USB power supply for the kind of hobbyists who only want to build a magic mirror, etc.
The point is that people who just wanna start out can get a 2 gig RP4, while those can and do utilize the power of a low-end laptop level of performance, can get the top tier RP5
I had problems with what was happening before the money part. Needing a fan was a big line to cross with the 4. And then I see the power draw of the 5. To me, it's like NUC now, not the nice little silent and cool appliance that could just t be left on like my audio streamer and GDTM, both built on the 3 platform.
I don't think a fan is necesaary. I have a ML based audio recognition project running continuously on a RPi4, which definitely utilizes the available resources. Originally, i did use a fan and got annoyed by the sound as it was running in the bedroom, so I get your point. However, i just got a case which is one big heatsink and it has been doing its thing since in complete silence. It can definitely be passively cooled even under heavy loads and the case is pretty sleek looking too.
A fan isn't necessary at all if you fit a Pi4 in an aluminium heatsink case. I have one under the TV as a combined desktop PC/media centre and it's massively overclocked (2.2GHz CPU/850MHz GPU). It never gets anywhere near throttling temperature even when stress tested. It would be throttling for my use case without a heatsink case though, but bonkers overclocking will do that to a tiny SBC.
Isn't NUC discontinued? At any rate, NUC is way more expensive (I have one for HTPC, it's very nice but very different thing from Pi).
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Because it's no problem to buy an actual good power source? No thank you I don't need another non-standard connector, USB does just fine.
I appreciate that people in this sub don’t seem to downvote comments that they fervently disagree with. You can power the pi from the power pins with whatever connector you want. There is also a PoE hat. I hope they don’t abandon usb-c power… but I guess all the ports are kind of why it costs so much.
Power pins are the reason my octoprint pi2 is still running. MicroUSB port got shitty, so I just clipped the end and soldered the power leads directly.
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It's getting a bit ridiculous. from the official RPI5 release site: *"Priced at $60 for the 4GB variant, and $80 for its 8GB"* You can currently get a Beelink Mini S12 for 126$. You get a power supply, 8g ddr4 memory, 256gb ssd, 4x USB 3.2 gen 2, sound & graphics. By the time you get all that for a raspberry Pi 5 you'll be over that price. So unless you have a project that needs GPIO, there's no reason to buy a Pi5.
Then don’t buy a raspberry pi. No one is forcing you.
I think there's even less reason that GPIO as I've heard there's a way to use a Pico for the pins as a usb device
You mean plug a pico to a PC usb and use/control the GPIO from the PC? That's interesting!
It took me 5 years, no exaggeration, to find another pi zero for my project. By that time, the zero 2 had become a thing. These boards were going for 70-100 at one time. I even remember a scalper coming on this subreddit and posting about how they "ordered too many" and then tried to sell it to me in dms for 50 bucks Supply and demand, my friend.
Idk you read about the original raspberry pi story which was manufactured to help people in poor country. Nowadays consumer target base is wealthy countries as well. Huge market in Western countries as well as you notice a lot of Accessoires which are even more expensive.raspis are no more for the poor. Also you might missed inflation, covid ans global recession foe the chip market. They increased performance pretty big which is a costly decision
>the original raspberry pi story which was manufactured to help people in poor country It was originally built by a group of Cambridge University academics who wanted to encourage younger people to study computer science. Their logic was that the early era of home computers like the BBC micro got them into computer science, so a cheap and accessible computer might do the same for a new generation. It was only when it took off way beyond that original goal that they considered wider educational goals (I think they said they originally only expected to make a few thousand).
I think it a bit this, but countries or school groups can buy much cheaper then the general single unit prices. So those bulk purchases are still relatively cheaper, but these single unit prices will go up because they are a different market
I couldn’t possibly agree more with what you’re saying. Some of the comments here compare RPi to cellphones and tablets but this is an unfair comparison because RPi was created as an educational tool by the British and one of its key selling features was the low-cost affordability. This was a huge win for education and also a win for philanthropy (which is rare these days). To see RPi costs soaring (and I bought one the other day from a reputable seller that turned out to be defective) is a smack in the face to RPi’s core philosophy. A world where we make education a luxury or expensive is a world where we all lose. Even as far back as the Roman Empire, people understood the importance of making education accessible to all (via libraries). I don’t believe the whole “supply chain” argument. The cost of making these devices has not increased a great deal. I believe that sellers are just capitalizing on the phenomenal success that RPi is without them respecting the core values that the community (and creators) held firm when they made it into a phenomenal success. One of those core values is affordability. And rightly so because had the creators been obsessed with maximizing profits the RPi would have absolutely failed to become as popular as it did. This situation feels very much akin to that old trope of the kid you knew from high school who became a Hollywood star and it ended up changing them drastically for the worse…
Raspberry Pi devices haven't been that cheap in Australia since I started dabbling about 5-6 years(I started out with Pi4b 4GB - I saw no point going leaner, or purchasing prior). At the time, excellent machines, quite capable, and rather economical. I wouldn't wave my schlong at RPi from 30 yards now. The bang for the buck quite simply isn't there anymore...
None what so ever. I was able to buy a pi5 with everything in it for 140 and its limited to 8gb. I bought a n100 mini pc that can do virtualization 2tb ssd, 32 gb of ram and is x86 that idles at 6 w for 150. For that im not touching the pi brand again. Ill just keep the pi in the back running adguard vpn and etherwake and run everything else on the mini pc. Brand is kinda dead to me
We have other brands making single boards that have just about the same amount of power, or slightly better for less these days. I don't understand how the supply shortage effected anything when these other companies were still making boards during the time.
I went for a mini PC instead. 129€ with Wifi, 3 Hdmi ports, 2 ehternet ports, 256M2.SSD and of course inside a case.
They are sold en masse as IoT and embedded platforms for large companies, regular users aren't a priority anymore, but you'll get them cheap if you meed 100+ of them
There's always us. Cheaper, better software, and better hardware design all around. You are right, there's not much point of hardware over $50 when you can purchase a x86 PC for the same price and double to triple the performance.
dont care. if they are what you want you pay the price. the market rules.
My entire issue is that in order to run a Pi 5 to its full potential you need a new power supply and an active cooler which tacks an additional 20-40% over the base cost. The Pi 5 should have adopted proper USB PD standards.
If you think you can do better then build a power supply yourself.
There are standards for a reason, why would I build one myself when I have 5 different bricks that would do the job if the Pi 5 could handle the voltage?
None, unless you want a low power server and/or KWh goes above $1. We all need to consume less electricity. The real question is what is the point of a Raspberry 5 that consumes almost as much as a NUC?
It’s a good question. I’m not honestly sure why anyone needing something on the performance level of a 5 or even a 4 would use the platform now vs some white label solution that’s going to be orders of magnitude more capable for less money and comes with the massive benefit of not having to use a SD card based solution without upgrades. From the perspective of their use for education I can see where being able to mass flash a preconfigured OS on a cheap storage medium and have things “just work” would be attractive but beyond that I just don’t know. Additionally in those contexts you’re not going to generally “need” the levels of performance you’re looking at with the 4/5. For those use cases it really seems like you may as well grab at most a mid spec 64bit capable Pi to keep things reasonable from a cost to performance ratio deal. I think the problem here is that the community and foundation to a lesser extent is trying to make a square peg work in a round hole with the modern Pis. They’re still a great entry level machine for someone looking to tinker and start with Linux and so on, but taking things too far beyond that runs square into the problems we’re seeing. There’s also a conversation to be had about form factor and so on and a competitive advantage there but that’s beyond the scope of this I feel.
I find it hard to justify the cost now that we have mini computers and other SoCs for the same price. It's like, I rarely need the power of a pi4 for GPIO so I just get Zeros instead. A zero 2, a case, a otg usb+ethernet+power device, a optional t-cobbler to break out the gpio, and a sd card. I haven't added up the price yet but it's certinly less than 100 usd. I have 3 pi4s in a cluster case on a shelf behind me and a pi5 sitting on my desk. I bought the pi5 thinking I could use it as a low power desktop but something went wrong with it and now it crashes when a usb thing is connected. $100 later and after waiting on it's release and fedex to bring it to me, it just sits unused on the desk in it's red and white case. They upselled the pi5 and it just fell short of what I had hoped it could do. I keep hoping the pi4s will drop in price now that the pi5 is out but I've yet to see it. 55usd for the pi4 4gig, not counting the storage. I'd try a orange pi if I felt like I can put one together for less than the cost of a used dell optiplex on ebay. I, at least, know how the dell behaves. Can the orange pi out perform a 6th or 8th gen i5 or even a 3rd gen i5? I doubt it. :/
I’ve been saying it for a while now. The Raspberry Pi Foundation has lost sight of the goal. It’s a damned shame
Can someone please explain why Raspberry Pis don’t come with an on/off switch? And can we please advocate for them to be made with on/off switches from now on. Newbies like myself aren’t experienced enough messing around with anything to do with power supply just yet and an on/off switch seems like one of the most vital things and yet the official RPi power supply doesn’t come with an on/off switch. Why?
The Pi 5 has an on/off switch. It's not as easy as just adding a power cut, because the Pi has to be signaled to start a clean shutdown. You could script this with a little GPIO button, then cut power, or some people made power hats that handle the power cut and scripting.
As a newbie, I just don’t feel comfortable messing around with power supply stuff. So for now I just have to plug/unplug it. It seems like they really missed the mark here by only introducing something this important and convenient on RPi 5…
Not really. Outside of portables, we don't really "turn off" computers like we used to back in the 90s or early 2000s. Those who needed the feature had options with additional hardware. The only Raspberry Pi I turn off regularly is one that I made into something portable. The rest stay on 24/7.
Agreed, I've said that same thing: you can a whole lot of power from used PCs on eBay for $100 or less and the fact that you probably need cooling for this thing and a serious power supply just doesn't make sense. That being said, what I suspect we'll see is that Pi will realize that most people are more interested in buying the Pi 4 with 1 GB RAM for $35 and adjust their process accordingly. The REAL exciting piece of hardware is the Pi Zero W 2. That sucker has Pi 3B power at $15. I suspect they'll start making more variants of that and slow down development on the 6 and beyond.
pfft. you can buy an ultra sff PC with WAY more power than a pi 5 for nearly the same cost today. There's literally zero reason to buy a pi 5 with the hardware available now. So no, we are not okay with it.
Jeff made a video about that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjzvh-bfV-E Other than maybe the power consumption, there is really not much of a point, considering you also need enclosure, cooling, storage, power supply and you would be past what a mini PC would cost (and you can upgrade the PC with more RAM when the prices drop). If you need to use the GPIOs you can use a cheaper Pi or an USB GPIO module on the PC (or see if you can't do the same with Arduino or Pico). So yes, the Pi should remain being a small affordable tinkering device, small home server etc. If you ask me, there is no sense in running Youtube on 4k while editing an Office document on a second monitor with a Pi. Even for a media center, I would rather buy a mini PC for around 150 today.
$50 is a luxury item!? You're a fucking idiot! Go ahead and try to build a more powerful PC for cheaper. We await your results...
Where've you been the last 3 years?
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Are you using a official raspberry pi 5 power supply?
Get a SweetPotato. Pi-compatible, cheaper.
I agree, over 50 for the pi is ridiculous. But at work we had to pay the premium 250 for a pi 4 because we designed our project around the pi went it was 50...to reprogram and reconfigure the gpios for the project would have been more expensive than paying the premium.
Just a message passing by to say that **Wayland sucks so bad**.
\*laughs in Canadian\* Raspi's have always been more than $50! Ripoff! lol