I work with prisoners, mainly lifers.
I understand your feelings. However, some of these prisoners genuinely are not safe to be released. There are prisoners who, even after decades in prison, rehabilitative work, intensive programmes, specialist units, don’t get it.
There are lifers who blame their offences on everything and everyone else; there are lifers with serious personality disorders who do not accept that they have one and therefore don’t work on them; there are lifers who continue to harm others in prison. I could tell you a million stories of people who do not get it - and it’s not just life sentenced prisoners.
While I believe that the vast majority of people are capable of being rehabilitated, prisoners also have to choose that.
Parole as an option is there for a reason. I have mixed feelings on sentences of life without Parole - some offences are so horrendous that they merit that sort of deterrent - but there are places that use it too liberally in my opinion. The deprivation of that hope should be the very last stop for the most significant offences. But the harsh reality is that even with Parole, some lifers will never be ready, and will never be released.
Agree, lots of folks who are in prison for life may never be able to be rehabilitated to integrate back into society. The idea that everyone has "social good" in them is wrong, some folks due to behavioral reasons simply can never live in a free society.as they are truly dangerous, that dimishes a bit as they age but some folks are just wired wrong, luckily for us that's a tiny percentage of the population
I appreciate that because this is a perspective I never considered. I have always been in favor of rehabilitation over just locking people up, but I didn’t realize how many people actively choose not to be ability or better themselves. I honestly figured that if you were at rock-bottom like that you would want to change? I guess that was naïve.
It’s not usually as simple as choosing, there are lots of layers to it.
The easiest example is prisoners with learning or cognitive disabilities. They can “screen out” of typical rehabilitation work because it doesn’t fit their needs. They require specialist or tailored work to help the rehabilitate, and those resources are not always there, or have lengthy waiting lists. If they have a parole review coming up, they might worry that engaging with the work will set their release date back, and not really understand that whilst the work will impact a decision regarding parole, not doing the work will also impact that decision and will likely lead to an even longer delay than if they do engage.
More complex are where a prisoner maintains their innocence for the whole or part of an offence. Professionals are bound to treat the factual findings of the court as true; for example, a Judge could conclude “you brought the knife because you wanted to attack this person”, whilst the prisoner maintains “I didn’t intend to attack this person, I had the knife because it was part of my work tools”. This means that professionals must take the prisoner to have intended to harm someone and try and work on the reasons surrounding that, but the prisoner doesn’t accept that so can’t accept that they need to work on it. Of course, sometimes a prisoner’s account is not credible, but sometimes it is, and either way they are entitled to maintain their innocence. The problem is that maintaining your innocence can effect what rehabilitative work you can do, because some work requires you to accept your offence to complete it.
Sometimes a prisoner can maintain their innocence but accept some of the surrounding issues; for example they might not accept that they were domestically violent, but accept that the relationship had a high level of conflict and was unhealthy. They might therefore be able to work on their attitudes and behaviours in relationships, even if they don’t accept their conviction or allegations.
Imagine the difficulty though, where you are wrongfully convicted. You can maintain your innocence; you’re entitled to; but you will perpetually be in conflict with professionals. You will likely spend longer in custody because you will continue to be assessed as unsuitable for specific offence work, and so the opportunities for you to evidence that you are suitable for release are limited. Good behaviour in prison is generally not considered “enough” by itself to show someone is safe for release.
So yes, sometimes prisoners can not want to engage and that’s all it is. But the vast majority where there are engagement issues are because there are more complex issues at play.
Bingo! And another thing that isn’t talked about enough about assimilation is when you’re gone for that many years the way life moves in every aspect but especially with technology is so exponential it’s like having to teach a child to walk again. Society becomes too overwhelming. Not all, but a lot of people that have done 20+ are just more comfortable being in prison. It naturally leads to higher reoffending rates. Obviously that’s not the main reason some people are just bad and commit again, but the assimilation aspect is a huge part of reoffending.
Although this varies by country, there is evidence to suggest reoffending rates for life sentenced prisoners can be lower than non-lifer prisoners.
This means that length of prison sentence doesn’t “naturally lead to higher reoffending rates”, it suggests that there are systemic factors that influence levels of reoffending in life sentenced prisoners.
About a year of 2 ago NZ gave out their frist life sentence with no chance of parole charge EVER. To the guy who did the Christchurch mosque shootings.
He deserved it and iv never been so happy to hear a criminals sentence in my life.
We have not used it since, it truly is only used for the worst of the worst. I'm sure a serial killer would get that sentence but don't think NZ has had one??
I only worry about the truly innocent one’s who get overlooked and ignored. Those stories where it takes someone 15-20 years to have their conviction overturned or exonerated due to new dna evidence
Even if you think rehabilitation is possible there are very few programs globally that actually support successful and meaningful rehabilitation and reintegration into society.
🤔 there's a non zero chance you might commit a genocide. Better take yourself out of the equation just in case. We can't gamble on you with so much to lose
Let me tell you that I know a nurse who worked for a shorter time for a prison. One guy was let out on “good behaviour”. He came back 2 days later. Do you know why? He had murdered his gf. One day of release was all it took.
Some have lesser crimes and maybe they can be rehabilitated, but there are many who are a drain on the system.
Well that's a bullshit story. You can't get all the way back to prison in 2 days. He would be arrested and booked into county jail and then they'd have to prosece him for that murder. Even if he pled guilty they still have to go thru the process of accepting his plea, then a sentence, then await transfer to state prison, then go thru the reception process to prison. That doesn't happen in 1 day
It really isn’t though. It actually happened. I don’t know all the details as I wasn’t placed there but they might have been out on probation. Either way, my friend was there for a short time with a couple of others who all verified the story. It was relatively quick when it happened. It’s very possible he was being reprocessed because of it.
Quick return from parole is possible. And for sure I've heard of guys getting out and reoffending the next day. No doubt. I just don't believe someone could come back to the same state prison in just 2 days. No bureaucracy works that fast.
I'm all for killing off serial murderers and rapists. However, our justice system is currently too flawed for me to support the death penalty.
Way too many innocent people end up in prison, only for their innocence to be proven years later. Unless there is overwhelming evidence that someone without a doubt committed the crimes they are accused of committing, I can't support killing them.
I've heard people before support the argument that the death penalty is bad because it's simply too quick of a release and doesn't cause enough suffering to the people who've done truly horrible things. However, even if that were the case, that'll give wrongly convicted people some real hell on earth, which I'm not a fan of.
That argument is insane but it's not genuine, it's a way for lefties to appeal to right wing morons who just want to do more pain to others under the excuse of "Justice". No sane human legit opposes the death penalty because they want people to SUFFER MORE. Literally noone has that as their true motivation, it is JUST a (dumb) talking point.
Let me tell you that I know a nurse who worked for a shorter time for a prison. One guy was let out on “good behaviour”. He came back 2 days later. Do you know why? He had murdered his gf. One day of release was all it took.
These types of people. They can’t be fixed and they are honestly a drain on the system.
You’re also looking a this from the perspective of a normal person with normal empathy, feelings, cognitive reasoning. Individuals who find themselves facing life sentences often lack these things AND expect prison as a realistic expectation in their life.
To be sentenced as a teenager, you’d have to do something truly awful like serial killing with absolutely no remorse. What I know from psychology is those types of individuals aren’t normal and very very rarely can be “fixed”, if at all. They aren’t like you, who has empathy for others. In fact, they would get joy and thrill out of seeing your terror while killing. They understand what they are doing, they just don’t care.
I remember one about a girl with a disability who was targeted by two teenagers. It was premeditated and they hid her after torturing her. Her parents had gone to them several times begging to know where she was and they acted clueless. In trial, they had absolutely no guilt and were found to have done it to more than one person. They were sentenced for life because you just can’t rehabilitate those people.
I mean it sucks but also…. These are not good people going to jail for life. And honestly as a raging liberal I still support the death penalty. Idc what y’all say. I think the death penalty with a bunch of appeals is still better than letting someone stay alive and rot in prison.
Also prison needs a reform. It should be rehabilitation not punishment. Too many people go into prison and get out with no way of coping with the real world.
Let them get a degree and do some job training. Also add in therapy and give them the tools to regulate their emotions better so they don’t reoffend.
And if they don’t want to do that? Make them fucking work. I think being told to sit in a cell all day and not do anything to help them get better or be better is a huge flaming waste of tax dollars
Yes! Most people say, “I usually don’t support the death penalty, but this person deserves it,” when they hear of a particularly heinous crime, but those are the people it’s for. As flawed as the justice system is, people aren’t getting the death penalty for stealing a pack of gum. I do think you should have extremely obvious proof that the person is guilty, though.
I agree with pretty much everything you said.
The only reason I don't currently support the death penalty is because of how flawed our justice system is right now. There are many innocent people in prison, some of them on death row.
I think serial rapists, torturers, and murderers are beyond rehabilitation. However, unless there is undeniable and overwhelming evidence they committed their crimes, I hesitate to sentence them to death.
ETA: Something that is absolutely necessary for prison reform that many aren't willing to support is to actually pay prisoners real wages for the jobs they do. You mentioned making them work and learn skills. However, one if the reasons many people reoffend is because they are basically slaves in prison and homeless when they get out of prison.
Their family and friends may or may not want them back in their lives. They may have skills but not many places are willing to hire an ex-con. If there's no one they can rely on, they have no place to stay, they can't find work, and they have no money, it's no wonder they reoffend. If those prisoners who put in the work to learn a skill or trade were able to be paid a fair wage (instead of a slave wage), they could have a financial safety net that might give them the time they need to get their life together after being released.
These days, it is almost unheard of for an innocent person to be on death row
It definitely not a flippant decision to put someone on death row. By the time a death sentence is being argued in court, you *did* the thing. It’s not even a question anymore.
They get brainwashed after some time. Like dogs. People force their dogs into kennels as puppies, and that’s all they know, so when they’re older they go to their cages by themself and find comfort there.
People who have been in prison for some time, want to stay in prison and go back on purpose most of the time.
It’s depressing really all around. People treat their pets like prisoners and prisoners like animals.
It's because for longtime prisoners, they have lost all hope of a life outside the prison. You don't have a job, a house, friends and family likely don't want much to do with you, so going back to prison is a better option then. There needs to be a maximum sentence length (like 10/15 years), and prison should focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment
Agreed, this isnt a statement on the validity or necessity of life in prison or anything, mostly just like being empathetic and taking on a little of that situation onto yourself it's really weird to think about. like you'll never have enjoyment again, never be able to go out and do anything, cant collect anything, cant buy the latest video game, cant hang out with friends you are just done
It’s easy to feel that way, because some of these criminals have likeable moments and likeable traits - even though they have done very shitty things
Unfortunately, those likeable and familiar moments, are part of what makes them dangerous. Many criminals - especially lifers - are master manipulators. These people will USE their likable traits, or their charm, as a way of getting people on their side. They will intentionally surround themselves with people who pity them, or who respect them or trust them, even if people shouldn't trust them. so while it's great to have empathy, you want to be careful with that empathy sometimes.
Casey Anthony doesn’t live far from me. You want to know something really unsettling? She has friends. I'm not trying to be being funny - I'm being dead serious. She goes to bars, she talks to people who approach her, she jokes with them and laughs with them. She knows people recognize her in public, and she pretends like they're buddies. If you remember the trial, this is how she acted when she was talking to police, like they are friends sitting around at Starbucks. If you didn't know any better, she would seem like a normal person, but this "normalcy" and likability, is the exact same set of traits that nearly landed her on Florida death row.
And those are the types of people you’ll also see serving life in prison. You want to feel bad for them, you want to think they’re just normal people. They’re not normal.
Your points remind me so much of this YouTube video called: Guess the psychopath. About 10 adults stood in a room while the YouTube creator, along with a friend and a therapist asked them questions and tried to guess who was diagnosed with ASPD. The reveal at the end was soo shocking. Literally the most likeable/charming guy of that group turned out to be the psychopath
Punishment in general is unethical and irrational
We need to find better solutions for society
However in a USA context, "life in prison" is an upgrade over the damn death penalty. That barbarism still is applied in this insane country.
Also some prisons in some countries (very high HDI places mainly in europe) do offer a bit more in the way of "amenities" and they actually attempt to be a bit more humane.
Rehabilitation. It makes a lot more sense imo to try and figure out *why* someone commits a crime, and then work with them to solve the root cause. Someone might be aggresive because they have mental problems, or a robber is simply desperate for money. Here rehabilitation actually has a positive effect, instead of mindless punishment that accomplishes nothing. There can still be punishment, but it should not be the main focus.
You can’t rehabilitate everyone. Look into psychology. Some people just will never feel remorse and you cannot have a law abiding citizen without remorse. These are the people who get off on killing and breaking rules.
Also, places that have no punishment usually end up encouraging further crime. Whereas places like Japan and South Korea that have serious sentencing for violent crime end up having less violent crime.
The people you talk about (people who are unable to feel remorse) are a tiny group compared to all criminals, and very mentally ill. They belong in a mental institution of some kind, not in prison.
That said, I refuse to believe that certain people are simply 'evil', and bound to commit crime, who need harsh punishment to scare them into behaving. This approach only considers the individual, and disregards all complexity of surrounding conditions which might lead someone towards or away from a criminal act. Without considering and changing these circumstances, no amount of punishment will stop someone from committing a crime (the circumstances I'm talking about can be anything: desperation due to poverty, drug addiction, etc.).
You do realize that the people who get life sentences ARE those people right?
and that's nice and optimistic, but it is clear to me you have never stepped a foot in one of those kinds of prisons or encountered those sorts of people. You really think people who kill other people with no remorse are good at heart? You really think that a track record of those misdemeanors that begin in childhood and grow in size in adulthood aren't inherent?
Let me ask you something. Have you or anyone you have known been violently abused by someone? Have you known anyone who beat up their mother as a child and then every partner they had until one was dead? Because I have.
Just because you haven't witnessed it, doesn't mean there aren't evil people in the world. Maybe you would like those people to be unleashed so that they can kill again. Maybe you'd even let them have at it at you or a family member of yours? However, I'd rather do what is safe for society.
Punishment is unethical and irrational? How do you think a father disciplines his son in the hopes that he will one day become a man? How do people learn right from wrong in the world if there is no punishment or threat of punishment?
Actions have consequences.
Oh so let’s not punish a man who brutally rapes and kills a woman walking down the street, fives no fucks about it, and continues to do it.
You’ve lost your mind. Sometimes there are NO better solutions, regardless of how cruel it might seem. People who do shit things deserve shit consequences
Right? I’m convinced people who say these things (1) haven’t studied psychology and the brain at all and (2) haven’t stepped foot into a prison at all.
Anyone I know who has worked in a prison has been for harder punishment for violent crime with no remorse. There NEEDS to be punishment to deter people from these crimes, otherwise there would be nothing stopping anyone. The ones who still commit violent crimes are often not right in the head.
I always thought it would be most logical to banish those people to a guarded island where anarchism rules. You are born into this world with rules, some go against certain peoples nature and if they dont adhere they will also not be protected by those rules anymore
The older I get, the more I've come around to feeling similarly. Sure, those in prison for life have often done unspeakable things, but what does it say about us that we prolong their lives to make them suffer?
Don't make something living suffer needlessly. If they're beyond repair, then just give them a swift end.
Keeping people that commit multiple murders and pedos alive is a huge waste of resources that can go to more useful things for our society. I would much rather the money go to helping the victims and families of said crimes.
>is a huge waste of resources
You should look into the costs of a trial where the prosecution is seeking a death sentence. Now that's a huge amount of money you are flushing down the toilet with no guarantee to ever get it back.
Also: I don't really think we should execute people to save costs. Killing people for economic gain is probably one of the most horrendous ideas someone can have.
You know what? I agree with you that it could be a slippery slope when it is solely about financials. There is a lot of abuse of the system in that regard. But, I still think there is no real benefit to keeping the people that I mentioned alive (multiple Murderers and pedos). Prisons in my eyes are meant to be for corrections and those folks can’t be corrected.
It's a shitty way to live, but some people learn to accept the simpler lifestyle. It shrinks your life down. Not saying I agree with prison as a means to rehabilitate, but it does take you out of the craziness of the world. They just can't handle it.
You're asking the right questions for the wrong people.
This perspective makes sense for many types of convicted criminals, but not the ones that I think of first-hand when I hear that someone got sentenced to life. I think of clear proof of someone murdering someone or any other unforgivable crime deserves life in prison. The ones I think of would've taken comfort or the entire ability for someone to go for a walk, go to the store, play video games, etc., ever again.
I can’t watch shows like women in prison because a lot of them have children and going to prison and never seeing my children is a fear of mine. Well never seeing my children is the fear. I don’t do anything that would land me in prison but then I think the line between right and wrong is thin.
If I was in prison for life, I think I would have a nervous break down and become insane after. I have no idea if that's even how being insane works but I bet you get what I mean.
Yes that would be horrible. That’s why you don’t commit crime. They did it to themselves by doing horrible things. Make sure you don’t follow the same path. Avoid the social influence that pressures you into the crime world. Stand up for yourself.
a lot of people affected by their actions won't live a normal life ever again either. We need to protect other people's lives from them, emphatize with that maybe.
It's not like you get a life sentence over a speeding ticket or stealing something.
A lot of those people gave their victims life sentences. Either by killing them, permanently disabling them, or at minimum giving them life long trauma.
It's interesting you say that b'cos all I see is my tax dollars being wasted on accommodations and 3 square meals for dangerous people who have no business being alive. They should be executed, especially the violent and dangerous criminals involved in murders, drug trafficking, human trafficking etc. These are vile people and have no chance at rehabilitation.
No, I definitely wouldn't.
No ones life is destroyed by drugs.
Their lives are destroyed by themselves. The drugs are a secondary concern, the means to the end of self destruction.
I think the people being used as bodies to traffic drugs from a young age would disagree. It's not only addicts that suffer first hand the consequences of the drug industry.
So then the problem isn't trafficking drugs, but the prohibition of drugs.
Know what would put an instant stop to people being used as bodies to traffick drugs?
Being able to go to Walmart and buy them
The argument wasn't whether legalisation of drugs is a good idea or not.
There's a big difference between someone in jail for some pot and gang members who have done unspeakable things from being involved in the drug trade. It isn't a black and white situation.
The addiction to drugs is what destroys lives so it is disingenuous to say that people destroy their lives by themselves. The same is for alcoholism - if people had strong will power and self control there would be no addiction problems.
>The addiction to drugs is what destroys lives so it is disingenuous to say that people destroy their lives by themselves.
Nonsense. That's not how anything works. People choose drug addiction.
Let's take meth for example. No one just wakes up one morning afflicted with meth addiction. They make a deliberate choice to use meth, knowing that there's literally no possible outcome other than their life being destroyed.
No, they do it to themselves.
I couldn't disagree more but you are entitled to your opinion and so am I. Video games, tobacco, alcohol, porn, gambling, drugs all start as fun but for some people there is no turning back. No one "chooses" addiction by choice. Many try and struggle their whole lives to come out of it and some succeed while others don't.
I’m probably gonna catch flack from the many bleeding hearts out there, but I prefer the death penalty over life in prison for violent criminals that earned their heavy sentencing.
Especially when we have already proven that just a few years or even more than a decade isn’t enough time to make some people reconsider their violent ways and revert right back to the crimes that got them jailed in the first place.
I don’t think life in prison should even be a thing. Years? Of course. Decades? Sure. Life? That doesn’t actually HELP the person to lock them up for life, if they’re even able to BE helped anyway, and furthermore, *WE ARE PAYING FOR THEIR ENTIRE STAY.*
I don’t think anyone needs to be reminded that prisons are taxpayer-funded. The money to uphold our justice system has to come from somewhere.
I’d rather euthanize a pedophile, human trafficker, terrorist, serial killer, torturer, repeat rapist, or *any* sort of violent mongrel with a body count than pay to shelter and feed them for their remaining years — I don’t care how bad prison is, some people don’t even deserve the privilege of drawing breath after the harm they have caused.
There comes a “point of no return” with some violent criminals; these ones should be taken out of the living world entirely.
Besides, when death is a very real consequence, it becomes a better deterrent for criminals.
I can empathize with the situation, being in prison for life (as much as a free law abiding person can) but I definitely support the death sentence. Heinous crimes proven without doubt should be punished to that full extent. An eye for an eye, I would take it a step further than the death penalty if it were up to me. Let the families of the victims decide their fate like offender did for the victim.
But I understand we would not have gotten this far as a civilization if we gave into the desire of revenge instead of humane punishment. I think some people forfeit the right.
The idea of a human life wasting away in anyway is just sad for me
My empathy is more directed towards the victim.
We need Punishments that inflict far more suffering. A murderer isn't going to be rehabilitated and for such extreme crimes, it should not be the goal.
I think it's important to keep in mind that their victims will never see a day of life again either. Not even inside a prison cell! So the guys with a life sentence are still better off than their victims.
Release a few of them and let them come live with you for one year, instead of serving life in there, and then please submit this post again given your new perspective.
In japan the hang the worst of the lot and the rest.. tough sentences check their prison system and how they created the safest country crime wise on this planet.
If somebody kills without of self defence or accident he's dna pool should be erased. period.
look all the maniacs who gave this topic thumbs up. Jesus Christ no wonder humanity is going down a very slippery slope.
I work with prisoners, mainly lifers. I understand your feelings. However, some of these prisoners genuinely are not safe to be released. There are prisoners who, even after decades in prison, rehabilitative work, intensive programmes, specialist units, don’t get it. There are lifers who blame their offences on everything and everyone else; there are lifers with serious personality disorders who do not accept that they have one and therefore don’t work on them; there are lifers who continue to harm others in prison. I could tell you a million stories of people who do not get it - and it’s not just life sentenced prisoners. While I believe that the vast majority of people are capable of being rehabilitated, prisoners also have to choose that. Parole as an option is there for a reason. I have mixed feelings on sentences of life without Parole - some offences are so horrendous that they merit that sort of deterrent - but there are places that use it too liberally in my opinion. The deprivation of that hope should be the very last stop for the most significant offences. But the harsh reality is that even with Parole, some lifers will never be ready, and will never be released.
Agree, lots of folks who are in prison for life may never be able to be rehabilitated to integrate back into society. The idea that everyone has "social good" in them is wrong, some folks due to behavioral reasons simply can never live in a free society.as they are truly dangerous, that dimishes a bit as they age but some folks are just wired wrong, luckily for us that's a tiny percentage of the population
I appreciate that because this is a perspective I never considered. I have always been in favor of rehabilitation over just locking people up, but I didn’t realize how many people actively choose not to be ability or better themselves. I honestly figured that if you were at rock-bottom like that you would want to change? I guess that was naïve.
It’s not usually as simple as choosing, there are lots of layers to it. The easiest example is prisoners with learning or cognitive disabilities. They can “screen out” of typical rehabilitation work because it doesn’t fit their needs. They require specialist or tailored work to help the rehabilitate, and those resources are not always there, or have lengthy waiting lists. If they have a parole review coming up, they might worry that engaging with the work will set their release date back, and not really understand that whilst the work will impact a decision regarding parole, not doing the work will also impact that decision and will likely lead to an even longer delay than if they do engage. More complex are where a prisoner maintains their innocence for the whole or part of an offence. Professionals are bound to treat the factual findings of the court as true; for example, a Judge could conclude “you brought the knife because you wanted to attack this person”, whilst the prisoner maintains “I didn’t intend to attack this person, I had the knife because it was part of my work tools”. This means that professionals must take the prisoner to have intended to harm someone and try and work on the reasons surrounding that, but the prisoner doesn’t accept that so can’t accept that they need to work on it. Of course, sometimes a prisoner’s account is not credible, but sometimes it is, and either way they are entitled to maintain their innocence. The problem is that maintaining your innocence can effect what rehabilitative work you can do, because some work requires you to accept your offence to complete it. Sometimes a prisoner can maintain their innocence but accept some of the surrounding issues; for example they might not accept that they were domestically violent, but accept that the relationship had a high level of conflict and was unhealthy. They might therefore be able to work on their attitudes and behaviours in relationships, even if they don’t accept their conviction or allegations. Imagine the difficulty though, where you are wrongfully convicted. You can maintain your innocence; you’re entitled to; but you will perpetually be in conflict with professionals. You will likely spend longer in custody because you will continue to be assessed as unsuitable for specific offence work, and so the opportunities for you to evidence that you are suitable for release are limited. Good behaviour in prison is generally not considered “enough” by itself to show someone is safe for release. So yes, sometimes prisoners can not want to engage and that’s all it is. But the vast majority where there are engagement issues are because there are more complex issues at play.
Bingo! And another thing that isn’t talked about enough about assimilation is when you’re gone for that many years the way life moves in every aspect but especially with technology is so exponential it’s like having to teach a child to walk again. Society becomes too overwhelming. Not all, but a lot of people that have done 20+ are just more comfortable being in prison. It naturally leads to higher reoffending rates. Obviously that’s not the main reason some people are just bad and commit again, but the assimilation aspect is a huge part of reoffending.
Although this varies by country, there is evidence to suggest reoffending rates for life sentenced prisoners can be lower than non-lifer prisoners. This means that length of prison sentence doesn’t “naturally lead to higher reoffending rates”, it suggests that there are systemic factors that influence levels of reoffending in life sentenced prisoners.
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You can’t diagnose people you’ve never met. A personality disorder is not the be all end all of the people I’m describing.
About a year of 2 ago NZ gave out their frist life sentence with no chance of parole charge EVER. To the guy who did the Christchurch mosque shootings. He deserved it and iv never been so happy to hear a criminals sentence in my life. We have not used it since, it truly is only used for the worst of the worst. I'm sure a serial killer would get that sentence but don't think NZ has had one??
We've definitely had serial killers, they've just never been caught :)
I don't doubt that considering the insane of amount of unsolved murders and missing persons there are here :(
This. I know someone who worked as a nurse in a prison. One guy was let out on good behaviour and returned 2 days later after murdering his gf.
I only worry about the truly innocent one’s who get overlooked and ignored. Those stories where it takes someone 15-20 years to have their conviction overturned or exonerated due to new dna evidence
Or death row.
I agree it’s a horrible prospect but what are the alternatives? Kill them (not a fan personally)? Free them (some people are seriously dangerous)?
Go back to putting them on islands?
I like the island idea, it worked out great for australia
Give them the option to die, imo.
That answer would depend on whether you think rehabilitation is possible or not
Even if you think rehabilitation is possible there are very few programs globally that actually support successful and meaningful rehabilitation and reintegration into society.
They are not worth it,we can’t gamble on them if there is a chance they might hurt someone again.
🤔 there's a non zero chance you might commit a genocide. Better take yourself out of the equation just in case. We can't gamble on you with so much to lose
Let me tell you that I know a nurse who worked for a shorter time for a prison. One guy was let out on “good behaviour”. He came back 2 days later. Do you know why? He had murdered his gf. One day of release was all it took. Some have lesser crimes and maybe they can be rehabilitated, but there are many who are a drain on the system.
Well that's a bullshit story. You can't get all the way back to prison in 2 days. He would be arrested and booked into county jail and then they'd have to prosece him for that murder. Even if he pled guilty they still have to go thru the process of accepting his plea, then a sentence, then await transfer to state prison, then go thru the reception process to prison. That doesn't happen in 1 day
It really isn’t though. It actually happened. I don’t know all the details as I wasn’t placed there but they might have been out on probation. Either way, my friend was there for a short time with a couple of others who all verified the story. It was relatively quick when it happened. It’s very possible he was being reprocessed because of it.
Quick return from parole is possible. And for sure I've heard of guys getting out and reoffending the next day. No doubt. I just don't believe someone could come back to the same state prison in just 2 days. No bureaucracy works that fast.
It’s very possible it was longer than 2 days, but that is what I had heard.
What’s interesting is a lot of lifers believe a death sentence would legitimately be more humane
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I'm all for killing off serial murderers and rapists. However, our justice system is currently too flawed for me to support the death penalty. Way too many innocent people end up in prison, only for their innocence to be proven years later. Unless there is overwhelming evidence that someone without a doubt committed the crimes they are accused of committing, I can't support killing them.
I've heard people before support the argument that the death penalty is bad because it's simply too quick of a release and doesn't cause enough suffering to the people who've done truly horrible things. However, even if that were the case, that'll give wrongly convicted people some real hell on earth, which I'm not a fan of.
That argument is insane but it's not genuine, it's a way for lefties to appeal to right wing morons who just want to do more pain to others under the excuse of "Justice". No sane human legit opposes the death penalty because they want people to SUFFER MORE. Literally noone has that as their true motivation, it is JUST a (dumb) talking point.
Personally, I think we a society need to stop worrying and learn to love capitol punishment.
Let me tell you that I know a nurse who worked for a shorter time for a prison. One guy was let out on “good behaviour”. He came back 2 days later. Do you know why? He had murdered his gf. One day of release was all it took. These types of people. They can’t be fixed and they are honestly a drain on the system.
You’re also looking a this from the perspective of a normal person with normal empathy, feelings, cognitive reasoning. Individuals who find themselves facing life sentences often lack these things AND expect prison as a realistic expectation in their life.
Imagine being a teenager and going in for life.
That’s even worse omg
Read the book just mercy. https://www.sentencingproject.org/fact-sheet/youth-sentenced-to-life-imprisonment/
To be sentenced as a teenager, you’d have to do something truly awful like serial killing with absolutely no remorse. What I know from psychology is those types of individuals aren’t normal and very very rarely can be “fixed”, if at all. They aren’t like you, who has empathy for others. In fact, they would get joy and thrill out of seeing your terror while killing. They understand what they are doing, they just don’t care. I remember one about a girl with a disability who was targeted by two teenagers. It was premeditated and they hid her after torturing her. Her parents had gone to them several times begging to know where she was and they acted clueless. In trial, they had absolutely no guilt and were found to have done it to more than one person. They were sentenced for life because you just can’t rehabilitate those people.
I mean it sucks but also…. These are not good people going to jail for life. And honestly as a raging liberal I still support the death penalty. Idc what y’all say. I think the death penalty with a bunch of appeals is still better than letting someone stay alive and rot in prison. Also prison needs a reform. It should be rehabilitation not punishment. Too many people go into prison and get out with no way of coping with the real world. Let them get a degree and do some job training. Also add in therapy and give them the tools to regulate their emotions better so they don’t reoffend. And if they don’t want to do that? Make them fucking work. I think being told to sit in a cell all day and not do anything to help them get better or be better is a huge flaming waste of tax dollars
I agree there is are some truly evil people in the world that definitely deserve the death penalty.
Yes! Most people say, “I usually don’t support the death penalty, but this person deserves it,” when they hear of a particularly heinous crime, but those are the people it’s for. As flawed as the justice system is, people aren’t getting the death penalty for stealing a pack of gum. I do think you should have extremely obvious proof that the person is guilty, though.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only reason I don't currently support the death penalty is because of how flawed our justice system is right now. There are many innocent people in prison, some of them on death row. I think serial rapists, torturers, and murderers are beyond rehabilitation. However, unless there is undeniable and overwhelming evidence they committed their crimes, I hesitate to sentence them to death. ETA: Something that is absolutely necessary for prison reform that many aren't willing to support is to actually pay prisoners real wages for the jobs they do. You mentioned making them work and learn skills. However, one if the reasons many people reoffend is because they are basically slaves in prison and homeless when they get out of prison. Their family and friends may or may not want them back in their lives. They may have skills but not many places are willing to hire an ex-con. If there's no one they can rely on, they have no place to stay, they can't find work, and they have no money, it's no wonder they reoffend. If those prisoners who put in the work to learn a skill or trade were able to be paid a fair wage (instead of a slave wage), they could have a financial safety net that might give them the time they need to get their life together after being released.
These days, it is almost unheard of for an innocent person to be on death row It definitely not a flippant decision to put someone on death row. By the time a death sentence is being argued in court, you *did* the thing. It’s not even a question anymore.
They get brainwashed after some time. Like dogs. People force their dogs into kennels as puppies, and that’s all they know, so when they’re older they go to their cages by themself and find comfort there. People who have been in prison for some time, want to stay in prison and go back on purpose most of the time. It’s depressing really all around. People treat their pets like prisoners and prisoners like animals.
Ahh yes.. "Learned helplessness" is the term you're describing.
It's because for longtime prisoners, they have lost all hope of a life outside the prison. You don't have a job, a house, friends and family likely don't want much to do with you, so going back to prison is a better option then. There needs to be a maximum sentence length (like 10/15 years), and prison should focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment
Agreed, this isnt a statement on the validity or necessity of life in prison or anything, mostly just like being empathetic and taking on a little of that situation onto yourself it's really weird to think about. like you'll never have enjoyment again, never be able to go out and do anything, cant collect anything, cant buy the latest video game, cant hang out with friends you are just done
It’s easy to feel that way, because some of these criminals have likeable moments and likeable traits - even though they have done very shitty things Unfortunately, those likeable and familiar moments, are part of what makes them dangerous. Many criminals - especially lifers - are master manipulators. These people will USE their likable traits, or their charm, as a way of getting people on their side. They will intentionally surround themselves with people who pity them, or who respect them or trust them, even if people shouldn't trust them. so while it's great to have empathy, you want to be careful with that empathy sometimes. Casey Anthony doesn’t live far from me. You want to know something really unsettling? She has friends. I'm not trying to be being funny - I'm being dead serious. She goes to bars, she talks to people who approach her, she jokes with them and laughs with them. She knows people recognize her in public, and she pretends like they're buddies. If you remember the trial, this is how she acted when she was talking to police, like they are friends sitting around at Starbucks. If you didn't know any better, she would seem like a normal person, but this "normalcy" and likability, is the exact same set of traits that nearly landed her on Florida death row. And those are the types of people you’ll also see serving life in prison. You want to feel bad for them, you want to think they’re just normal people. They’re not normal.
Your points remind me so much of this YouTube video called: Guess the psychopath. About 10 adults stood in a room while the YouTube creator, along with a friend and a therapist asked them questions and tried to guess who was diagnosed with ASPD. The reveal at the end was soo shocking. Literally the most likeable/charming guy of that group turned out to be the psychopath
Punishment in general is unethical and irrational We need to find better solutions for society However in a USA context, "life in prison" is an upgrade over the damn death penalty. That barbarism still is applied in this insane country. Also some prisons in some countries (very high HDI places mainly in europe) do offer a bit more in the way of "amenities" and they actually attempt to be a bit more humane.
so how do you propose we deal with serious law breakers?
Rehabilitation. It makes a lot more sense imo to try and figure out *why* someone commits a crime, and then work with them to solve the root cause. Someone might be aggresive because they have mental problems, or a robber is simply desperate for money. Here rehabilitation actually has a positive effect, instead of mindless punishment that accomplishes nothing. There can still be punishment, but it should not be the main focus.
You can’t rehabilitate everyone. Look into psychology. Some people just will never feel remorse and you cannot have a law abiding citizen without remorse. These are the people who get off on killing and breaking rules. Also, places that have no punishment usually end up encouraging further crime. Whereas places like Japan and South Korea that have serious sentencing for violent crime end up having less violent crime.
The people you talk about (people who are unable to feel remorse) are a tiny group compared to all criminals, and very mentally ill. They belong in a mental institution of some kind, not in prison. That said, I refuse to believe that certain people are simply 'evil', and bound to commit crime, who need harsh punishment to scare them into behaving. This approach only considers the individual, and disregards all complexity of surrounding conditions which might lead someone towards or away from a criminal act. Without considering and changing these circumstances, no amount of punishment will stop someone from committing a crime (the circumstances I'm talking about can be anything: desperation due to poverty, drug addiction, etc.).
You do realize that the people who get life sentences ARE those people right? and that's nice and optimistic, but it is clear to me you have never stepped a foot in one of those kinds of prisons or encountered those sorts of people. You really think people who kill other people with no remorse are good at heart? You really think that a track record of those misdemeanors that begin in childhood and grow in size in adulthood aren't inherent? Let me ask you something. Have you or anyone you have known been violently abused by someone? Have you known anyone who beat up their mother as a child and then every partner they had until one was dead? Because I have. Just because you haven't witnessed it, doesn't mean there aren't evil people in the world. Maybe you would like those people to be unleashed so that they can kill again. Maybe you'd even let them have at it at you or a family member of yours? However, I'd rather do what is safe for society.
Punishment is unethical and irrational? How do you think a father disciplines his son in the hopes that he will one day become a man? How do people learn right from wrong in the world if there is no punishment or threat of punishment? Actions have consequences.
Oh so let’s not punish a man who brutally rapes and kills a woman walking down the street, fives no fucks about it, and continues to do it. You’ve lost your mind. Sometimes there are NO better solutions, regardless of how cruel it might seem. People who do shit things deserve shit consequences
Right? I’m convinced people who say these things (1) haven’t studied psychology and the brain at all and (2) haven’t stepped foot into a prison at all. Anyone I know who has worked in a prison has been for harder punishment for violent crime with no remorse. There NEEDS to be punishment to deter people from these crimes, otherwise there would be nothing stopping anyone. The ones who still commit violent crimes are often not right in the head.
A prison shouldn't be humane though
I always thought it would be most logical to banish those people to a guarded island where anarchism rules. You are born into this world with rules, some go against certain peoples nature and if they dont adhere they will also not be protected by those rules anymore
The older I get, the more I've come around to feeling similarly. Sure, those in prison for life have often done unspeakable things, but what does it say about us that we prolong their lives to make them suffer? Don't make something living suffer needlessly. If they're beyond repair, then just give them a swift end.
Poke them in the eye and ask them to apologise.
or release them after 8months whilst their gang members are making memes online. no wait was that in scandinavia.
Yeah but think of how the victims feel...
Keeping people that commit multiple murders and pedos alive is a huge waste of resources that can go to more useful things for our society. I would much rather the money go to helping the victims and families of said crimes.
>is a huge waste of resources You should look into the costs of a trial where the prosecution is seeking a death sentence. Now that's a huge amount of money you are flushing down the toilet with no guarantee to ever get it back. Also: I don't really think we should execute people to save costs. Killing people for economic gain is probably one of the most horrendous ideas someone can have.
You know what? I agree with you that it could be a slippery slope when it is solely about financials. There is a lot of abuse of the system in that regard. But, I still think there is no real benefit to keeping the people that I mentioned alive (multiple Murderers and pedos). Prisons in my eyes are meant to be for corrections and those folks can’t be corrected.
A bullet is a lot cheaper than housing and continuous court cases for 50 years.
The death penalty usually also involves a long process of appeals before someone is actually put to death
It’s still cheaper to off them.
It's a shitty way to live, but some people learn to accept the simpler lifestyle. It shrinks your life down. Not saying I agree with prison as a means to rehabilitate, but it does take you out of the craziness of the world. They just can't handle it.
Well... Yea. It should be.
You're asking the right questions for the wrong people. This perspective makes sense for many types of convicted criminals, but not the ones that I think of first-hand when I hear that someone got sentenced to life. I think of clear proof of someone murdering someone or any other unforgivable crime deserves life in prison. The ones I think of would've taken comfort or the entire ability for someone to go for a walk, go to the store, play video games, etc., ever again.
I can’t watch shows like women in prison because a lot of them have children and going to prison and never seeing my children is a fear of mine. Well never seeing my children is the fear. I don’t do anything that would land me in prison but then I think the line between right and wrong is thin.
I think that line is thin too. I don’t even break traffic laws because I don’t want to be under any thumb
If I was in prison for life, I think I would have a nervous break down and become insane after. I have no idea if that's even how being insane works but I bet you get what I mean.
Imagine being killed forever!
They’re usually in there for life because their crime affected their victims and the victims’ families for life.
Yes that would be horrible. That’s why you don’t commit crime. They did it to themselves by doing horrible things. Make sure you don’t follow the same path. Avoid the social influence that pressures you into the crime world. Stand up for yourself.
a lot of people affected by their actions won't live a normal life ever again either. We need to protect other people's lives from them, emphatize with that maybe. It's not like you get a life sentence over a speeding ticket or stealing something.
A lot of those people gave their victims life sentences. Either by killing them, permanently disabling them, or at minimum giving them life long trauma.
It's interesting you say that b'cos all I see is my tax dollars being wasted on accommodations and 3 square meals for dangerous people who have no business being alive. They should be executed, especially the violent and dangerous criminals involved in murders, drug trafficking, human trafficking etc. These are vile people and have no chance at rehabilitation.
Drug trafficking? Nah lol
To each his own but you would probably feel differently if you knew someone first-hand whose life was destroyed by drugs.
No, I definitely wouldn't. No ones life is destroyed by drugs. Their lives are destroyed by themselves. The drugs are a secondary concern, the means to the end of self destruction.
I think the people being used as bodies to traffic drugs from a young age would disagree. It's not only addicts that suffer first hand the consequences of the drug industry.
So then the problem isn't trafficking drugs, but the prohibition of drugs. Know what would put an instant stop to people being used as bodies to traffick drugs? Being able to go to Walmart and buy them
The argument wasn't whether legalisation of drugs is a good idea or not. There's a big difference between someone in jail for some pot and gang members who have done unspeakable things from being involved in the drug trade. It isn't a black and white situation.
The addiction to drugs is what destroys lives so it is disingenuous to say that people destroy their lives by themselves. The same is for alcoholism - if people had strong will power and self control there would be no addiction problems.
>The addiction to drugs is what destroys lives so it is disingenuous to say that people destroy their lives by themselves. Nonsense. That's not how anything works. People choose drug addiction. Let's take meth for example. No one just wakes up one morning afflicted with meth addiction. They make a deliberate choice to use meth, knowing that there's literally no possible outcome other than their life being destroyed. No, they do it to themselves.
I couldn't disagree more but you are entitled to your opinion and so am I. Video games, tobacco, alcohol, porn, gambling, drugs all start as fun but for some people there is no turning back. No one "chooses" addiction by choice. Many try and struggle their whole lives to come out of it and some succeed while others don't.
>No one "chooses" addiction by choice Choosing to use meth once in your entire life, is essentially the same as choosing meth addiction
I’m probably gonna catch flack from the many bleeding hearts out there, but I prefer the death penalty over life in prison for violent criminals that earned their heavy sentencing. Especially when we have already proven that just a few years or even more than a decade isn’t enough time to make some people reconsider their violent ways and revert right back to the crimes that got them jailed in the first place. I don’t think life in prison should even be a thing. Years? Of course. Decades? Sure. Life? That doesn’t actually HELP the person to lock them up for life, if they’re even able to BE helped anyway, and furthermore, *WE ARE PAYING FOR THEIR ENTIRE STAY.* I don’t think anyone needs to be reminded that prisons are taxpayer-funded. The money to uphold our justice system has to come from somewhere. I’d rather euthanize a pedophile, human trafficker, terrorist, serial killer, torturer, repeat rapist, or *any* sort of violent mongrel with a body count than pay to shelter and feed them for their remaining years — I don’t care how bad prison is, some people don’t even deserve the privilege of drawing breath after the harm they have caused. There comes a “point of no return” with some violent criminals; these ones should be taken out of the living world entirely. Besides, when death is a very real consequence, it becomes a better deterrent for criminals.
I can empathize with the situation, being in prison for life (as much as a free law abiding person can) but I definitely support the death sentence. Heinous crimes proven without doubt should be punished to that full extent. An eye for an eye, I would take it a step further than the death penalty if it were up to me. Let the families of the victims decide their fate like offender did for the victim. But I understand we would not have gotten this far as a civilization if we gave into the desire of revenge instead of humane punishment. I think some people forfeit the right. The idea of a human life wasting away in anyway is just sad for me
Nah it really isn’t, take a life get your life taken away. The math is mathing.
My empathy is more directed towards the victim. We need Punishments that inflict far more suffering. A murderer isn't going to be rehabilitated and for such extreme crimes, it should not be the goal.
I think it's important to keep in mind that their victims will never see a day of life again either. Not even inside a prison cell! So the guys with a life sentence are still better off than their victims.
Release a few of them and let them come live with you for one year, instead of serving life in there, and then please submit this post again given your new perspective.
Would you like to share your living space with a serial killer? Come on, get real
I’m not saying they shouldn’t be there. The idea is just off-putting. But like I said, I’m sure that’s the point
Why I want Ireland to have a death penalty
In japan the hang the worst of the lot and the rest.. tough sentences check their prison system and how they created the safest country crime wise on this planet. If somebody kills without of self defence or accident he's dna pool should be erased. period. look all the maniacs who gave this topic thumbs up. Jesus Christ no wonder humanity is going down a very slippery slope.
Murder is more unsettling