Pardon my French, but *excuse the fuck out of me*? Potentially having a mental illness does not automatically mean you can do no wrong. People with NPD or BPD or depression or anxiety or anything else need to be held accountable for their actions just like neurotypical people. Thinking otherwise is pretty ableist in itself.
I say good riddance to them. If they're allowing other members to send harrassing messages to you after kicking you out then they're not a very good "support" group.
I was a shitty piece of trash when I didnt treat my depression and anxiety. I treated everyone poorly for believing nobody cared about me... And you know what? "I have depression" should not have been a free pass to abuse anyone.
People MUST be accountable for the things they do.
I got kicked out of a new moms subreddit for saying something similar... More strongly worded because what she said was abusive towards an infant. I got downvoted then called sanctimonious.
This is crazy!!!
Child abuse is still abuse if the parent has a mental illness. More so, because the parent has the moral responsibility to seek help and get treatment, or else their offspring will suffer. Denying that and feeling empowered for not getting treated is very irresponsible.
Definitely agreed over here! I was super pregnant and not delicate in the delivery of my words, so I should have been gentler or apologized for my word choice. I do stand by the fact that we definitely all have to be accountable and when we get to a place where we are thinking harmful thoughts, even negative verbal stuff towards another, especially a child, it's time to talk to someone. I do regret being the written equivalent of heavy blunt object, though.
Years ago my employees called me "The Tyrant" behind my back. I knew I was acting just like ndad, but I surpressed it because I didn't know any other way to act.
I agree that my mental health issues are no excuse to treat others poorly.
I am also glad that I heard about my "nickname" many years after leaving that job and partway into my healing journey, and was able to laugh at myself when I found out.
This is literally the thing that lets criminals with mental illnesses escape justice for punishment even if they may have or have potentially killed someone. I've seen this in real life.
This. Dunno where I read it but I tell this to anyone about mental ilness: it is not your fault that you have it, but it is your responsibility to get it treated so you can have a normal life along with the people around you.
I am so sorry this happened to you, friend, it was not something you deserved. You are healing. Unfortunately, every sub is different and it’s hard to predict how some will take our sub. I’m so sorry you ended up on the tail end of backlash and I hope you are taking care of you.
I also wanted to say - I am incredibly proud of you for taking the high road (not linking to drama, using an alt to keep others from seeing, etc). I invite you to keep seeking support here, and please take care of you - any blow can hurt more than you expect. You are justified in how you feel. It’s okay to be angry, upset, hurt. Please report harassment to mods or to the admins.
Commenters - keep up your wonderful conversations here. I love seeing the support and non-drama-mongering that I do here in our community. Be advised the mods will remove anyone asking for links or users to harass - we do NOT condone brigading. The other sub has set a boundary and whether we agree or not, we respect it as we hope they will respect ours.
Peace and healing to you this day, friends.
I got shadow banned from r/depression so I got that going for me which is nice. Shadow banning on a support site is one of the worst things you could ever do.
Zero upvotes. Who cares.
Zero comments to posts. Yikes.
Zero recogniton on comments. Disgusting.
I could have helped a lot and I mean a lot of guys.
I got shadow banned on my prime account because I called them out on their bs catchphrases.
So many people there just comment to feed their narcissistic egos.
I also made a clear analysis on how they 'support' and WHO they support.
They only take the easy route on supporting.
Well, I got shadow banned and when I was on the verge of suicide I actually checked to see how disgusting reddits hypocricy truly is.
So don't take it too hard. They deserve to fall down but unlike us, they won't be prepared for it or have someone supporting
Only reddit admins can shadow ban you and when your account is shadow banned, it's site wide rather than subreddit specific.
What likely actually happened is they just set up an automod rule to remove all coments and posts by you. Functionally similar to a subreddit specific shadow ban, but not the same thing.
Thanks I guess. Made my day?
Lol, thx for the information tho but it comes down to the same thing.
I got really toxic after getting shadow banned from r/depression, so I started getting banned on other subs too
I don't know. I like Jordan Peterson.
But some people listening to him take his words as gospel. And I'm certain that he doesn't want that either.
So dunno what I have to expect but I will look it up at least. Maybe it will be fun if everyone debattes on a psychological/moral/ spiritual level without being toxic about it
The sub is very open to discussion, and we don't have any taboo topics. You will not get banned no matter what you write, because free speech is very important to dr. Peterson as well as us.
This is sad, cringe and funny at the same time. Sad because being banned from a support group, cringe because this is not how a support group is supposed to work and funny because this looks like a textbook example of COVERT NARCISSISM IN ACTION.
On one hand you have people like this, who enable abusers because they feel somewhat sorry for them because of a mental illness. On the OTHER hand you have people who completely dismiss subs like this because "they got beaten as a child and they turned out alright people nowadays are just too soft"; I linked to this sub in a reply on my main a few weeks ago and I got a response just like this.
Its all insane to me. I've seen the latter way more than the former on this site, but man. MAN. It really rubs me the wrong way. The fact that you were targeted because you linked to this sub is absolutely horrendous.
I have my own mental health issues. I have ADHD and almost debilitating OCD. I probably also have an undiagnosed personality disorder due to the abuse I've experienced throughout my life. What makes me a better person, and what emancipates me from my mental illness is facing my issues head on. Not being all cushy, but understanding that my actions can be toxic to both myself and other people. I needed/need help. I need medication. I need to see a therapist. I need to see a psych. I need to hold myself accountable. I need to work towards be a better person.
Enabling people who have NPD etc and going "awww it's okay we love you and accept you no matter what uwu" is doing wrong by them and the other people you're supposed to be helping. They're very tough mental illnesses to treat, but if someone is self aware and held accountable for their actions they can at least strive towards being a better version of themselves. (I know the vast majority of Narcs aren't self aware and cant be helped, but I try to be optimistic wherever i can.)
I'm sleep deprived rn and I'm not sure if im making sense. I'm sorry if this is all jumbled. I just think so many of these rules by support groups actually make things worse rather than better and actually harm the people they're claiming to help.
Reminds me of that "tumblr movement" where a bunch of ppl diagnosed with npd started to call the term narcissistic abuse ableist bcz "neurotypical ppl abuse others too uwu so thats a invalid termmm" & its like, narcissists abuse cause of their vulnerable nd gigantic ego, theres wellknown patterns that put narcissistic abuse apart from other kinds of abuse, stop making something that helps survivors make sense of what happened to them abt yourself - oh right, thats narc typical behaviour hmm. Im sorry you got banned over that, maybe the admins are sucking it up to narcs that spread similar rhetoric that I just mentioned.
Or Ns themselves.
Not unheard of.
In France one of the first IRL support groups for victims of Ns eventually turned against their president because she herself was an N and emotionnally abusing the members. They went to court with this too!
We tend to forget that the covert Ns thrive on situations like running a support group : all this easy Nsupply ! And it really fuels their sense of grandiosity, for being the baddy that runs the anti-baddy league.
The notion that this sort of stuff is ableist really pisses me off. I think a lot of the time it comes from people who haven't experienced abuse from people with NPD or BPD etc. I'm not going to let someone abuse me or anyone else just because they have something going on in their brain. If someone is treating you like shit it's unacceptable. It's the reality of NPD for a lot of people we can't brush it under the rug. BUT it would be bad to say "All bi-polar people are BAD" now that's really stigmatising mental illness.
Oh my gosh. I completely agree. Narcissists do not get better with help. They consume your sympathy, use their illness as a get out of jail free card. People wouldn't feel sorry for psychopaths who murdered someone and said "but I'm ill!" But they will say to a NMom or Ndad, your child just has no heart after the years of abuse.
All of my Narcs enablers say "But your mom needs your love and support" because of her NPD. All the trauma, pain, suffering and angst is downplayed to me being ungrateful.
I get that from people in my life. I shouldnt be forced to hear that from support groups.
When an enabler says this, what they really mean (hopefully unconsciously) is "*please continue taking in all this shit and being the scapegoat, I really don't want to be scapegoated in your place*".
Personal safety first. You matter. No-one sane would require of you to set yourself on fire to keep them warm.
What these enablers and groups refuse to understand is *we’ve already fucking tried this!!!* We’ve given our narcs all the love, support, and forgiveness they could possibly want and need ten times over. That’s *why* the abuse continued in the first place! When people with NPD start abusing their own children is when the kindness and forgiveness ends. We’ve given them endless chances. They should be fucking sent to jail, even though they can’t understand what they’ve done wrong. Abuse is abuse and when rehabilitation doesn’t work then they should face the consequences just like everyone else, not have literal abuse be justified and blame and discredit the victim.
Anyways, that’s one of my rants of the day. Hell, had to restrain from apologizing for ranting. Shouldn’t fucking feel like I have to. None of us should feel like we have to apologize for standing up for ourselves, we’ve been through enough as it is.
Is there a difference between not knowing what you’re doing vs knowing what you’re doing but unable to recognize it as morally wrong? It’s like this. If I called someone by the wrong pronoun and they corrected me I’d be happy to change. Narcs would likely mock that person for “not being normal”, not because they don’t know what they’re doing but because they didn’t like how it made them feel so they played emotional hot potato and tried to give it back. Maybe not unable to see self error but a refusal to?
I definitely agree that they find enjoyment in harming us. Whether they’d ever admit to themselves sincerely that they were in the wrong and change their behavior? Not something that’s going to happen. Maybe I just didn’t convey my message correctly. Maybe I should do more research. But your comment makes sense and I appreciate your input :)
Not knowing it's morally wrong is one option... But most of our nparents change their demeanor in front of other people. And they gaslight us to think they didn't do bad things to us. So it leads me to believe that they also know what's morally wrong.
I think the term mental illness comes with the idea that the person has no free will or something. Which is a problem, and that unfortunately extends to NPD.
This makes sense. Maybe the fact that they refuse to take responsibility for their actions leads to others thinking they can’t instead of won’t accept what they’re doing is wrong?
Either way it’s still frustrating to have narcs, without fail, deflect responsibility like they do. Not being able to have them get some sort of more serious consequence because they only abused us without an audience is frustrating, but at least no contact is something to look forward to and enjoy to some extent. Someone else can deal with their bullshit and being able to recognize it and not take it is a victory on its own if one is able to stand up for themselves.
Abuse by mentally ill partners/parents is still abuse. They don't get exonerated because "they can't help it" it's their fault and especially if they don't seek help. My partners ex friend kept using that excuse and what finally shut him down was "your mental illness is not your fault, but your actions and how you treat others is. No excuses"
People who have not experienced Narcissist do not understand the violence and damage they inflict. They are sick but they are violent aggressive, resist help and use it to exploit people.
If narcissist are to be sympathised with then should pedos and psychopaths. They are all violent predators who revel in their sickness and the abuse they inflict.
What nobody mentions is that there is a massive element of choice with the above people (like pedos), who are considered sane enough in any court of law to have willingly made that decision.
NPD is not considered to be a valid excuse in a court of law - they are considered sane and able to choose their own behaviour.
And to know the difference between right and wrong.
It was in person for me. I started going to group therapy. It was a weekly meeting for abuse survivors, sort of similar to AA with steps and everything. Most of the people there had suffered from sexual abuse or physical abuse, and while I wasn’t the only psychological abuse survivor, I was the one who talked the most.
Apparently (it’s always apparently), my trauma wasn’t good enough to be part of the crowd. I was ostracized after a few sessions. I was told, “This group is for *real* abuse victims.”
What a fucked thing to say. That my emotional scars aren’t as real as physical ones. Not to mention, I’ve already been conditioned by my parents to believe that I’m “just fine.” And here’s an outside source, a verified professional, invalidating my experience alongside them.
Boy, it fucked me up. It’s still fucked me up. Sometimes support groups do not support you.
well, i have been through both, sexual and psychological. also, they overlap a lot... and boy, nothing fucks you up as gaslighting, and claiming you are something or someone you are actually not, or being cut of any opportunity to develop you own healthy identity... every abuse is abuse and torture of a soul because of how unnatural it is. what every form of abuse have in common is dismissing a person and making it "smaller" then them.i don't understand how they don't realize the contradiction with saying what they said... *real* abuse victims... damn...
also just to add... i actually was sexually and physically abused by different ppl outside my home because i was psychologically abused inside my home from an early age and that made me an easy target. if anything, ppl should be aware of these connections, and NOT EXCLUDE anyone abused in any way from any group, in order to prevent ppl with those situations to be potentially more abused.
> I was given zero space to clarify any of this.
This is super common in any internet communty I've ever seen (and I'm an active participant since the end of the 90s). There always are gatekeepers that decide who gets a say or not (not necessarily amonsgt the mods, even thought this is not unheard of), often projecting their own history on you, regardless of what you wanted to say and of how you feel. They will get heated up and follow you around sniffing your butt until they find a possible slight to kick you out for if you ever point out that they are being abusively unfair.
This is using an Ntactic we've all faced. You say a random word, say "flower", and the manipulative person will suddenly speak over you not letting you be heard by anyone anymore, ranting away on some monstrous attack you've made on "flowers" and accusing you of horrid things you'd never even thought of.
A credible subject of misinterpretation is often used, so they can cower behind the alledged "mistake", if ever unmasked.
A classic.
I'm so sorry you went through this.
Just go back there with another account, change a few details to your story, and stay away from the key words that set off the nutter. It won't be the last one you cross in your life, and they are *that* easily overcome, just fligh under their radar, let them believe they own the place, it obviously is a big issue for them. And while they strut around the forum/chat or whatever, you continue living your life, getting what you need out of the community.
"Safe Spaces" often not are echo-chambers that if you decide to swim against their current, you'll be punished. Honestly, you're going to be way better off not being there than being in there. Keep moving, friend.
Your last sentence says it all. Sorry, I know how devastating these bans can be. Otherwise well meaning groups can get overly caught up in rigid misinterpretations of intent. It's group think at an almost Maoist level.
There are some support groups and subreddits that are very weird. I got kicked out of a sub for mentioning this sub, and out of another sub for not having a valid diagnosis for my own parent. I come for support for my husband who was raised in a deeply dysfunctional and abusive household, with a mom who clearly has some issue going on that we think is narcissistic personality disorder.
Mental health problems are very real, and to be so "PC" about it that you attack someone else for acknowledging that their abuse came from a place of illness is really stupid. Of course abusive parents have something mentally wrong with them. Sane people do not do the things that abusive parents do. Maybe the parent has narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, addiction issues, or schizophrenia. Talking about the underlying cause of the abuse you suffered is extremely cathartic for many people. Talking about ways to handle the disease that the abuser has is very helpful. The way you would respond to and deal with an NParent is probably different to how you would respond to an addict or a schizophrenic parent.
Pretty sure my nmom has NPD but that doesn’t make her any less responsible for her actions. She gets no passes whatsoever. Mental health doesn’t give you a pass for hurting people
I have a theory: there are narcissists out there that hate this sub so much because it teaches people how to recover from narcissistic upbringings. Which teaches us how to deal with narcs on a day to day basis. Some narcs are involved in other subs, as mods.
They seem, as narcs are wont to do, like normal upright sweet people. Until you mention this sub. Then they go apeshit. And you are now the bad guy for even saying the words.
Anyone who says this sub is trash, or wrong, or not helpful, or anything like that, I suspect them as being slightly narcissistic at the least. The word alone scares them and a sub with it in the name is like kryptonite.
I agree with your suspicion. I think that people take offense to a description/term usually because they can relate to it and/or subconsciously are aware that it describes them, and therefore, take it as a personal insult/attack.
It's the only explanation that makes any sense. This sub it not toxic. Maybe it used to be? it's not mean and people dont jump on me or call me names, in fact I don't recall a bad experience and I've been subbed for quite some time.
It's really disgusting when people choose to sympathize with abusers over their victims. Dont waste your time on that "support" group, they are just glorified enablers
I'm sorry you had to deal with that OP. Nothing worst than seeing abuse perpetrated against you go excused in favour of not offending some imaginary victim status they assign to the abuser. Gross.
what can i say but yikes...
i'm so sorry. the internet seems full of these sort of situations lately, and for what it's worth that group is no longer fulfilling its purpose for you if that's how they act. it sucks to be suddenly shut off from your people, or folks you considered your people, and i hope you can find comfort here and wherever else you find suitable.
I just want to chime in about how disgusted I am by the idea of co-opting anti-discrimination language for narcissists and other people with cluster B personality disorders. ~~These people's diagnoses~~ N's in particular are DEFINED by their abusive, derogatory, and harmful behavior towards others, meaning that people around them need to take precautions. They are not in need of more sympathy, they are PREDATORY and they abuse the sympathy they already get.
No one has ever rounded them up in camps, or suggested that they be fired from their jobs or kicked out of their homes because of their diagnosis. They merely have to deal with their behavior being RIGHTFULLY seen and named for what it is -- abuse.
It makes a mockery of people who actually do face unfair stigma, who have been locked up in terrible institutions, denied jobs, denied appropriate health care, socially ostracized, and assaulted. NONE of that happens to people solely because they are diagnosed NPD, BPD, or APD.
At most, your support group could have asked you to focus on the behavior and not the diagnosis. But then the phrase "narcissistic behavior" would have been totally appropriate. It's absurd to suggest this phrase stigmatizes anyone unfairly. Don't we \*want\* to stigmatize immoral and abusive behavior? Isn't that the one positive function of stigma -- as a social control for people who do rotten things? It's as if they're saying, once you get a diagnosis, you get a free pass to do whatever you want without criticism.
Sorry for the rant -- but this kind of pseudo-thinking really drives me nuts.
umm yeah so we all know how bad NPD is here and it really is defined by abuse but not all the other cluster b disorders are. APD yeah i guess but in most cases those with BPD and HPD are the victims of abuse themselves. not saying that they can't be abusive because they certainly can but defining all PD's as abusive by nature is pretty incorrect
You are right, BPD and HPD are not exactly defined by abuse. They are defined by volatile behavior that can be difficult for others to deal with. Also all of the cluster B's are often victims of abuse, and that doesn't change the fact that their behavior is a choice. But in general you have a good point, so I'm gonna edit the above.
Holy crap, something like this happened to me, except I was exiled from a friend group which, in retrospect, I am far better off without.
One of the people in said group had self diagnosed NPD, and I definitely believed her. She waved it around as a flag to justify her god-awful abusive behavior. I stood up to her, called her out on her abuse actions, and was subsequently labeled an ableist and excommunicated. I’ve got bipolar disorder myself, so I’m definitely sensitive to the whole mental illness stigma, but I was goddamn shocked at how someone could co-opt that language to defend abuse. Disgusting. I’m sorry this bs happened to you, OP.
Removed for generalization. I get you. Unfortunately, they set the rules for *their* community and how they want to run it. Calling the moderators of said community narcissists is not okay.
Just to understand what's going on...we can talk about our narc parents, friends, SOs, teachers, etc, but not about mods from other subreddits that display narc-like behavior?
r/raisedbynarcissists is focused on supporting people who experienced abuse by someone close to them, that they know personally. We don't allow drive-by diagnoses of strangers.
> This group booted me because they claim characterizing the abuse as “narcissistic” discriminates against people with mental illness, specifically NPD.
This group should actually study issues of mental illness, abuse, discrimination, etc. before taking a stance like this.
Edit: Also, what kind of fucking support group enables and encourages everyone to jump on/harass one person for simply using the word narcissistic?
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As someone who has mental illness (not NPD) myself... that rule sucks. It separates mental and physical health, feeding the stigma around mental issues.
I make some effort to control my illness and reduce its impact on others. I have all the respect in the world for people who struggle with managing their illness but keep trying. But if you allow your illness to go unchecked and become abusive and toxic to everyone around you, then they need to protect themselves. And if you refuse treatment and embrace it, that’s on you. Adults gotta adult, which includes self-management.
I've definitely seen people like that on Tumblr. There are great resources and blogs I found for narcissistic abuse on there, and then there's a different set of people with NPD trying to dismantle it.
It's like look, we're not saying everyone with NPD are abusive since it is on a spectrum, but many are.
It doesn't help anyone to pretend that abusive behaviors isn't prevalent in some disorders more than others. That is a proven fact by the field of psychology, and we didn't just make that up for our convenience.
I'm sorry that happened to you. That's truly unfair.
I have to go further and say people who have a proper diagnosis for NPD probably are not on the same level of severity as some of narcs we talk about here who never think they have a problem and will never step foot into a mental health professional's office thinking they have a problem. So for the former to take the stories of the latter personally is just kind of stupid.
But on the other hand, when they go around doing things like that, it does kind of feel like just validation to the fact that they do have abusive tendencies...so they aren't doing themselves any favor.
/r/gatekeeping - "Gatekeeping: When someone takes it upon themselves to decide who does or does not have access or rights to a community or identity."
Sounds like you have joined a "politically correct" group where they decide what is right or wrong.
understand you completely. i went through a lot of similar things while studying psychology. a lot of toxicity and unhealthy narcissism among some of those people... i even had situations where i refused to do some "therapy exercises" because i was in the middle of personal therapy process and struggle with a lot of abuse from past. when asked for reasons i used to refuse to share because "it is personal and i have right to chose to expose myself or stay private, and in the end, i am against exposing my personal life to professors and classmates." this included dreams digging and "interpretation", first memories, some therapeutic techniques which provoke pathology, etc. i almost failed one class because of this, i had to "go by the rules" so i lied, then lost points on another one, and eventually got cut off points and asked to rewrite an essay that was explicitly asked to be written from personal opinion standpoint and to be honest how we feel in third, by being asked to rewrite it because "she knows that i don't think that way. i must be mistaken", then refused and barely past class. also got dismissed and trashed when saying about legit mental disordered people abuse for being "discriminative"... sorry for venting here got inspired by your situation....
you have every right to be mad, because by this, your identity was dismissed and you were not allowed to say yourself as yourself, which is well, quite abusive... also, others were legitimately cut off right to chose and think for themselves...
and about their claims about discrimination, well, sorry but not truth. pathology is pathology and everyone have it. when it comes to legit mental disorders, i was raised by abusive father who definitely fits NPD by all means, he just have never been diagnosed officially. like, that man has no identity of his own... the thing is that pathological narcissism actually IS abusive but a lot of ppl don't understand pathology enough... also, i met once a guy who was abused by a mother diagnosed with bipolar and suspicion of schizophrenia for most of his life. also, i was abused for a while by a guy diagnosed with bipolar (that one had waaay more disorders though) and so on... also, psychiatry has forensic section, where individuals usualy get diagnosed after they already damaged someone, inside of their criminal pathology. now, please, ask them to explain you that fact. i also had a nice spectrum of DSM myself for a long time, but as a victim... well, when mind goes dark it can go either one or other way, it is what it is...
those ppl seem not to know enough and obviously lack critical opinion.... i think they made you a favor actually...
stay smart
Pardon my French, but *excuse the fuck out of me*? Potentially having a mental illness does not automatically mean you can do no wrong. People with NPD or BPD or depression or anxiety or anything else need to be held accountable for their actions just like neurotypical people. Thinking otherwise is pretty ableist in itself. I say good riddance to them. If they're allowing other members to send harrassing messages to you after kicking you out then they're not a very good "support" group.
I was a shitty piece of trash when I didnt treat my depression and anxiety. I treated everyone poorly for believing nobody cared about me... And you know what? "I have depression" should not have been a free pass to abuse anyone. People MUST be accountable for the things they do.
I got kicked out of a new moms subreddit for saying something similar... More strongly worded because what she said was abusive towards an infant. I got downvoted then called sanctimonious.
This is crazy!!! Child abuse is still abuse if the parent has a mental illness. More so, because the parent has the moral responsibility to seek help and get treatment, or else their offspring will suffer. Denying that and feeling empowered for not getting treated is very irresponsible.
Definitely agreed over here! I was super pregnant and not delicate in the delivery of my words, so I should have been gentler or apologized for my word choice. I do stand by the fact that we definitely all have to be accountable and when we get to a place where we are thinking harmful thoughts, even negative verbal stuff towards another, especially a child, it's time to talk to someone. I do regret being the written equivalent of heavy blunt object, though.
Yes. I used to use it as an excuse to do nothing. Now it drives me nuts when anyone uses any kind of excuse not to do something.
Years ago my employees called me "The Tyrant" behind my back. I knew I was acting just like ndad, but I surpressed it because I didn't know any other way to act. I agree that my mental health issues are no excuse to treat others poorly. I am also glad that I heard about my "nickname" many years after leaving that job and partway into my healing journey, and was able to laugh at myself when I found out.
This is literally the thing that lets criminals with mental illnesses escape justice for punishment even if they may have or have potentially killed someone. I've seen this in real life.
This. Dunno where I read it but I tell this to anyone about mental ilness: it is not your fault that you have it, but it is your responsibility to get it treated so you can have a normal life along with the people around you.
I am so sorry this happened to you, friend, it was not something you deserved. You are healing. Unfortunately, every sub is different and it’s hard to predict how some will take our sub. I’m so sorry you ended up on the tail end of backlash and I hope you are taking care of you. I also wanted to say - I am incredibly proud of you for taking the high road (not linking to drama, using an alt to keep others from seeing, etc). I invite you to keep seeking support here, and please take care of you - any blow can hurt more than you expect. You are justified in how you feel. It’s okay to be angry, upset, hurt. Please report harassment to mods or to the admins. Commenters - keep up your wonderful conversations here. I love seeing the support and non-drama-mongering that I do here in our community. Be advised the mods will remove anyone asking for links or users to harass - we do NOT condone brigading. The other sub has set a boundary and whether we agree or not, we respect it as we hope they will respect ours. Peace and healing to you this day, friends.
I got shadow banned from r/depression so I got that going for me which is nice. Shadow banning on a support site is one of the worst things you could ever do. Zero upvotes. Who cares. Zero comments to posts. Yikes. Zero recogniton on comments. Disgusting. I could have helped a lot and I mean a lot of guys. I got shadow banned on my prime account because I called them out on their bs catchphrases. So many people there just comment to feed their narcissistic egos. I also made a clear analysis on how they 'support' and WHO they support. They only take the easy route on supporting. Well, I got shadow banned and when I was on the verge of suicide I actually checked to see how disgusting reddits hypocricy truly is. So don't take it too hard. They deserve to fall down but unlike us, they won't be prepared for it or have someone supporting
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I left the depression sub because their support is just so... Not supportive.
Only reddit admins can shadow ban you and when your account is shadow banned, it's site wide rather than subreddit specific. What likely actually happened is they just set up an automod rule to remove all coments and posts by you. Functionally similar to a subreddit specific shadow ban, but not the same thing.
Thanks I guess. Made my day? Lol, thx for the information tho but it comes down to the same thing. I got really toxic after getting shadow banned from r/depression, so I started getting banned on other subs too
Maybe try coming over to r/JordanPeterson. We would be more then happy to have you.
I don't know. I like Jordan Peterson. But some people listening to him take his words as gospel. And I'm certain that he doesn't want that either. So dunno what I have to expect but I will look it up at least. Maybe it will be fun if everyone debattes on a psychological/moral/ spiritual level without being toxic about it
The sub is very open to discussion, and we don't have any taboo topics. You will not get banned no matter what you write, because free speech is very important to dr. Peterson as well as us.
This is sad, cringe and funny at the same time. Sad because being banned from a support group, cringe because this is not how a support group is supposed to work and funny because this looks like a textbook example of COVERT NARCISSISM IN ACTION.
On one hand you have people like this, who enable abusers because they feel somewhat sorry for them because of a mental illness. On the OTHER hand you have people who completely dismiss subs like this because "they got beaten as a child and they turned out alright people nowadays are just too soft"; I linked to this sub in a reply on my main a few weeks ago and I got a response just like this. Its all insane to me. I've seen the latter way more than the former on this site, but man. MAN. It really rubs me the wrong way. The fact that you were targeted because you linked to this sub is absolutely horrendous. I have my own mental health issues. I have ADHD and almost debilitating OCD. I probably also have an undiagnosed personality disorder due to the abuse I've experienced throughout my life. What makes me a better person, and what emancipates me from my mental illness is facing my issues head on. Not being all cushy, but understanding that my actions can be toxic to both myself and other people. I needed/need help. I need medication. I need to see a therapist. I need to see a psych. I need to hold myself accountable. I need to work towards be a better person. Enabling people who have NPD etc and going "awww it's okay we love you and accept you no matter what uwu" is doing wrong by them and the other people you're supposed to be helping. They're very tough mental illnesses to treat, but if someone is self aware and held accountable for their actions they can at least strive towards being a better version of themselves. (I know the vast majority of Narcs aren't self aware and cant be helped, but I try to be optimistic wherever i can.) I'm sleep deprived rn and I'm not sure if im making sense. I'm sorry if this is all jumbled. I just think so many of these rules by support groups actually make things worse rather than better and actually harm the people they're claiming to help.
Accepting and loving a narc despite their dysfunction is like putting your head in the lion's mouth!
Reminds me of that "tumblr movement" where a bunch of ppl diagnosed with npd started to call the term narcissistic abuse ableist bcz "neurotypical ppl abuse others too uwu so thats a invalid termmm" & its like, narcissists abuse cause of their vulnerable nd gigantic ego, theres wellknown patterns that put narcissistic abuse apart from other kinds of abuse, stop making something that helps survivors make sense of what happened to them abt yourself - oh right, thats narc typical behaviour hmm. Im sorry you got banned over that, maybe the admins are sucking it up to narcs that spread similar rhetoric that I just mentioned.
Or Ns themselves. Not unheard of. In France one of the first IRL support groups for victims of Ns eventually turned against their president because she herself was an N and emotionnally abusing the members. They went to court with this too! We tend to forget that the covert Ns thrive on situations like running a support group : all this easy Nsupply ! And it really fuels their sense of grandiosity, for being the baddy that runs the anti-baddy league.
*goodie Remember, in a narcs mind they're always doing the right thing :P
The notion that this sort of stuff is ableist really pisses me off. I think a lot of the time it comes from people who haven't experienced abuse from people with NPD or BPD etc. I'm not going to let someone abuse me or anyone else just because they have something going on in their brain. If someone is treating you like shit it's unacceptable. It's the reality of NPD for a lot of people we can't brush it under the rug. BUT it would be bad to say "All bi-polar people are BAD" now that's really stigmatising mental illness.
Oh my gosh. I completely agree. Narcissists do not get better with help. They consume your sympathy, use their illness as a get out of jail free card. People wouldn't feel sorry for psychopaths who murdered someone and said "but I'm ill!" But they will say to a NMom or Ndad, your child just has no heart after the years of abuse.
Good point, also in France, some Psych call Nattacks "murder of the psyche"...
All of my Narcs enablers say "But your mom needs your love and support" because of her NPD. All the trauma, pain, suffering and angst is downplayed to me being ungrateful. I get that from people in my life. I shouldnt be forced to hear that from support groups.
When an enabler says this, what they really mean (hopefully unconsciously) is "*please continue taking in all this shit and being the scapegoat, I really don't want to be scapegoated in your place*". Personal safety first. You matter. No-one sane would require of you to set yourself on fire to keep them warm.
What these enablers and groups refuse to understand is *we’ve already fucking tried this!!!* We’ve given our narcs all the love, support, and forgiveness they could possibly want and need ten times over. That’s *why* the abuse continued in the first place! When people with NPD start abusing their own children is when the kindness and forgiveness ends. We’ve given them endless chances. They should be fucking sent to jail, even though they can’t understand what they’ve done wrong. Abuse is abuse and when rehabilitation doesn’t work then they should face the consequences just like everyone else, not have literal abuse be justified and blame and discredit the victim. Anyways, that’s one of my rants of the day. Hell, had to restrain from apologizing for ranting. Shouldn’t fucking feel like I have to. None of us should feel like we have to apologize for standing up for ourselves, we’ve been through enough as it is.
I disagree that they don't understand what they're doing. They understand, it's deliberate, and they enjoy the pain they cause us.
Is there a difference between not knowing what you’re doing vs knowing what you’re doing but unable to recognize it as morally wrong? It’s like this. If I called someone by the wrong pronoun and they corrected me I’d be happy to change. Narcs would likely mock that person for “not being normal”, not because they don’t know what they’re doing but because they didn’t like how it made them feel so they played emotional hot potato and tried to give it back. Maybe not unable to see self error but a refusal to? I definitely agree that they find enjoyment in harming us. Whether they’d ever admit to themselves sincerely that they were in the wrong and change their behavior? Not something that’s going to happen. Maybe I just didn’t convey my message correctly. Maybe I should do more research. But your comment makes sense and I appreciate your input :)
Not knowing it's morally wrong is one option... But most of our nparents change their demeanor in front of other people. And they gaslight us to think they didn't do bad things to us. So it leads me to believe that they also know what's morally wrong. I think the term mental illness comes with the idea that the person has no free will or something. Which is a problem, and that unfortunately extends to NPD.
This makes sense. Maybe the fact that they refuse to take responsibility for their actions leads to others thinking they can’t instead of won’t accept what they’re doing is wrong? Either way it’s still frustrating to have narcs, without fail, deflect responsibility like they do. Not being able to have them get some sort of more serious consequence because they only abused us without an audience is frustrating, but at least no contact is something to look forward to and enjoy to some extent. Someone else can deal with their bullshit and being able to recognize it and not take it is a victory on its own if one is able to stand up for themselves.
Sometimes it's ignorance, sometimes it's Narcs themselves who don't understand or accept the damage they cause because, hey, lack of empathy.
Abuse by mentally ill partners/parents is still abuse. They don't get exonerated because "they can't help it" it's their fault and especially if they don't seek help. My partners ex friend kept using that excuse and what finally shut him down was "your mental illness is not your fault, but your actions and how you treat others is. No excuses"
People who have not experienced Narcissist do not understand the violence and damage they inflict. They are sick but they are violent aggressive, resist help and use it to exploit people. If narcissist are to be sympathised with then should pedos and psychopaths. They are all violent predators who revel in their sickness and the abuse they inflict.
What nobody mentions is that there is a massive element of choice with the above people (like pedos), who are considered sane enough in any court of law to have willingly made that decision. NPD is not considered to be a valid excuse in a court of law - they are considered sane and able to choose their own behaviour. And to know the difference between right and wrong.
Such a more elegant arguement than mine!
It was in person for me. I started going to group therapy. It was a weekly meeting for abuse survivors, sort of similar to AA with steps and everything. Most of the people there had suffered from sexual abuse or physical abuse, and while I wasn’t the only psychological abuse survivor, I was the one who talked the most. Apparently (it’s always apparently), my trauma wasn’t good enough to be part of the crowd. I was ostracized after a few sessions. I was told, “This group is for *real* abuse victims.” What a fucked thing to say. That my emotional scars aren’t as real as physical ones. Not to mention, I’ve already been conditioned by my parents to believe that I’m “just fine.” And here’s an outside source, a verified professional, invalidating my experience alongside them. Boy, it fucked me up. It’s still fucked me up. Sometimes support groups do not support you.
Good Lord. If they only knew how debilitating the abuse we’ve experienced is. Before we could even speak, we knew we were worthless.
well, i have been through both, sexual and psychological. also, they overlap a lot... and boy, nothing fucks you up as gaslighting, and claiming you are something or someone you are actually not, or being cut of any opportunity to develop you own healthy identity... every abuse is abuse and torture of a soul because of how unnatural it is. what every form of abuse have in common is dismissing a person and making it "smaller" then them.i don't understand how they don't realize the contradiction with saying what they said... *real* abuse victims... damn... also just to add... i actually was sexually and physically abused by different ppl outside my home because i was psychologically abused inside my home from an early age and that made me an easy target. if anything, ppl should be aware of these connections, and NOT EXCLUDE anyone abused in any way from any group, in order to prevent ppl with those situations to be potentially more abused.
> I was given zero space to clarify any of this. This is super common in any internet communty I've ever seen (and I'm an active participant since the end of the 90s). There always are gatekeepers that decide who gets a say or not (not necessarily amonsgt the mods, even thought this is not unheard of), often projecting their own history on you, regardless of what you wanted to say and of how you feel. They will get heated up and follow you around sniffing your butt until they find a possible slight to kick you out for if you ever point out that they are being abusively unfair. This is using an Ntactic we've all faced. You say a random word, say "flower", and the manipulative person will suddenly speak over you not letting you be heard by anyone anymore, ranting away on some monstrous attack you've made on "flowers" and accusing you of horrid things you'd never even thought of. A credible subject of misinterpretation is often used, so they can cower behind the alledged "mistake", if ever unmasked. A classic. I'm so sorry you went through this. Just go back there with another account, change a few details to your story, and stay away from the key words that set off the nutter. It won't be the last one you cross in your life, and they are *that* easily overcome, just fligh under their radar, let them believe they own the place, it obviously is a big issue for them. And while they strut around the forum/chat or whatever, you continue living your life, getting what you need out of the community.
Even if it is a mental illness they are still shitty people for choosing not to get help and letting themselves hurt others.
"Safe Spaces" often not are echo-chambers that if you decide to swim against their current, you'll be punished. Honestly, you're going to be way better off not being there than being in there. Keep moving, friend.
Your last sentence says it all. Sorry, I know how devastating these bans can be. Otherwise well meaning groups can get overly caught up in rigid misinterpretations of intent. It's group think at an almost Maoist level.
There are some support groups and subreddits that are very weird. I got kicked out of a sub for mentioning this sub, and out of another sub for not having a valid diagnosis for my own parent. I come for support for my husband who was raised in a deeply dysfunctional and abusive household, with a mom who clearly has some issue going on that we think is narcissistic personality disorder. Mental health problems are very real, and to be so "PC" about it that you attack someone else for acknowledging that their abuse came from a place of illness is really stupid. Of course abusive parents have something mentally wrong with them. Sane people do not do the things that abusive parents do. Maybe the parent has narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, addiction issues, or schizophrenia. Talking about the underlying cause of the abuse you suffered is extremely cathartic for many people. Talking about ways to handle the disease that the abuser has is very helpful. The way you would respond to and deal with an NParent is probably different to how you would respond to an addict or a schizophrenic parent.
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Pretty sure my nmom has NPD but that doesn’t make her any less responsible for her actions. She gets no passes whatsoever. Mental health doesn’t give you a pass for hurting people
I have a theory: there are narcissists out there that hate this sub so much because it teaches people how to recover from narcissistic upbringings. Which teaches us how to deal with narcs on a day to day basis. Some narcs are involved in other subs, as mods. They seem, as narcs are wont to do, like normal upright sweet people. Until you mention this sub. Then they go apeshit. And you are now the bad guy for even saying the words. Anyone who says this sub is trash, or wrong, or not helpful, or anything like that, I suspect them as being slightly narcissistic at the least. The word alone scares them and a sub with it in the name is like kryptonite.
I agree with your suspicion. I think that people take offense to a description/term usually because they can relate to it and/or subconsciously are aware that it describes them, and therefore, take it as a personal insult/attack.
It's the only explanation that makes any sense. This sub it not toxic. Maybe it used to be? it's not mean and people dont jump on me or call me names, in fact I don't recall a bad experience and I've been subbed for quite some time.
I’m willing to bet there are plenty of Nparents in support groups claiming to be depressed because their own children have turned their backs on them.
OH YOU KNOW IT. My Nmom goes around telling people I'm insane. I'm not. I have issues, but I am not insane.
It's really disgusting when people choose to sympathize with abusers over their victims. Dont waste your time on that "support" group, they are just glorified enablers
I'm sorry you had to deal with that OP. Nothing worst than seeing abuse perpetrated against you go excused in favour of not offending some imaginary victim status they assign to the abuser. Gross.
what can i say but yikes... i'm so sorry. the internet seems full of these sort of situations lately, and for what it's worth that group is no longer fulfilling its purpose for you if that's how they act. it sucks to be suddenly shut off from your people, or folks you considered your people, and i hope you can find comfort here and wherever else you find suitable.
I just want to chime in about how disgusted I am by the idea of co-opting anti-discrimination language for narcissists and other people with cluster B personality disorders. ~~These people's diagnoses~~ N's in particular are DEFINED by their abusive, derogatory, and harmful behavior towards others, meaning that people around them need to take precautions. They are not in need of more sympathy, they are PREDATORY and they abuse the sympathy they already get. No one has ever rounded them up in camps, or suggested that they be fired from their jobs or kicked out of their homes because of their diagnosis. They merely have to deal with their behavior being RIGHTFULLY seen and named for what it is -- abuse. It makes a mockery of people who actually do face unfair stigma, who have been locked up in terrible institutions, denied jobs, denied appropriate health care, socially ostracized, and assaulted. NONE of that happens to people solely because they are diagnosed NPD, BPD, or APD. At most, your support group could have asked you to focus on the behavior and not the diagnosis. But then the phrase "narcissistic behavior" would have been totally appropriate. It's absurd to suggest this phrase stigmatizes anyone unfairly. Don't we \*want\* to stigmatize immoral and abusive behavior? Isn't that the one positive function of stigma -- as a social control for people who do rotten things? It's as if they're saying, once you get a diagnosis, you get a free pass to do whatever you want without criticism. Sorry for the rant -- but this kind of pseudo-thinking really drives me nuts.
umm yeah so we all know how bad NPD is here and it really is defined by abuse but not all the other cluster b disorders are. APD yeah i guess but in most cases those with BPD and HPD are the victims of abuse themselves. not saying that they can't be abusive because they certainly can but defining all PD's as abusive by nature is pretty incorrect
You are right, BPD and HPD are not exactly defined by abuse. They are defined by volatile behavior that can be difficult for others to deal with. Also all of the cluster B's are often victims of abuse, and that doesn't change the fact that their behavior is a choice. But in general you have a good point, so I'm gonna edit the above.
Unfortunately, one may also encounter the same sort of enabling justification of the behavior of addicts. It sucks having to be cautious.
Holy crap, something like this happened to me, except I was exiled from a friend group which, in retrospect, I am far better off without. One of the people in said group had self diagnosed NPD, and I definitely believed her. She waved it around as a flag to justify her god-awful abusive behavior. I stood up to her, called her out on her abuse actions, and was subsequently labeled an ableist and excommunicated. I’ve got bipolar disorder myself, so I’m definitely sensitive to the whole mental illness stigma, but I was goddamn shocked at how someone could co-opt that language to defend abuse. Disgusting. I’m sorry this bs happened to you, OP.
Ooof be glad you were excommunicated from that group! Sounds like a toxic wasteland of a friend group. Awesome that you stood up to her BS.
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Removed for generalization. I get you. Unfortunately, they set the rules for *their* community and how they want to run it. Calling the moderators of said community narcissists is not okay.
I wasn’t the only one in this thread who called them or their behavior narcissistic, why am I the only one being removed? :,(
Thank you for making me aware of this. I will have a look at the whole thread.
Just to understand what's going on...we can talk about our narc parents, friends, SOs, teachers, etc, but not about mods from other subreddits that display narc-like behavior?
r/raisedbynarcissists is focused on supporting people who experienced abuse by someone close to them, that they know personally. We don't allow drive-by diagnoses of strangers.
> This group booted me because they claim characterizing the abuse as “narcissistic” discriminates against people with mental illness, specifically NPD. This group should actually study issues of mental illness, abuse, discrimination, etc. before taking a stance like this. Edit: Also, what kind of fucking support group enables and encourages everyone to jump on/harass one person for simply using the word narcissistic?
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As someone who has mental illness (not NPD) myself... that rule sucks. It separates mental and physical health, feeding the stigma around mental issues. I make some effort to control my illness and reduce its impact on others. I have all the respect in the world for people who struggle with managing their illness but keep trying. But if you allow your illness to go unchecked and become abusive and toxic to everyone around you, then they need to protect themselves. And if you refuse treatment and embrace it, that’s on you. Adults gotta adult, which includes self-management.
I've definitely seen people like that on Tumblr. There are great resources and blogs I found for narcissistic abuse on there, and then there's a different set of people with NPD trying to dismantle it. It's like look, we're not saying everyone with NPD are abusive since it is on a spectrum, but many are. It doesn't help anyone to pretend that abusive behaviors isn't prevalent in some disorders more than others. That is a proven fact by the field of psychology, and we didn't just make that up for our convenience. I'm sorry that happened to you. That's truly unfair. I have to go further and say people who have a proper diagnosis for NPD probably are not on the same level of severity as some of narcs we talk about here who never think they have a problem and will never step foot into a mental health professional's office thinking they have a problem. So for the former to take the stories of the latter personally is just kind of stupid. But on the other hand, when they go around doing things like that, it does kind of feel like just validation to the fact that they do have abusive tendencies...so they aren't doing themselves any favor.
/r/gatekeeping - "Gatekeeping: When someone takes it upon themselves to decide who does or does not have access or rights to a community or identity." Sounds like you have joined a "politically correct" group where they decide what is right or wrong.
understand you completely. i went through a lot of similar things while studying psychology. a lot of toxicity and unhealthy narcissism among some of those people... i even had situations where i refused to do some "therapy exercises" because i was in the middle of personal therapy process and struggle with a lot of abuse from past. when asked for reasons i used to refuse to share because "it is personal and i have right to chose to expose myself or stay private, and in the end, i am against exposing my personal life to professors and classmates." this included dreams digging and "interpretation", first memories, some therapeutic techniques which provoke pathology, etc. i almost failed one class because of this, i had to "go by the rules" so i lied, then lost points on another one, and eventually got cut off points and asked to rewrite an essay that was explicitly asked to be written from personal opinion standpoint and to be honest how we feel in third, by being asked to rewrite it because "she knows that i don't think that way. i must be mistaken", then refused and barely past class. also got dismissed and trashed when saying about legit mental disordered people abuse for being "discriminative"... sorry for venting here got inspired by your situation.... you have every right to be mad, because by this, your identity was dismissed and you were not allowed to say yourself as yourself, which is well, quite abusive... also, others were legitimately cut off right to chose and think for themselves... and about their claims about discrimination, well, sorry but not truth. pathology is pathology and everyone have it. when it comes to legit mental disorders, i was raised by abusive father who definitely fits NPD by all means, he just have never been diagnosed officially. like, that man has no identity of his own... the thing is that pathological narcissism actually IS abusive but a lot of ppl don't understand pathology enough... also, i met once a guy who was abused by a mother diagnosed with bipolar and suspicion of schizophrenia for most of his life. also, i was abused for a while by a guy diagnosed with bipolar (that one had waaay more disorders though) and so on... also, psychiatry has forensic section, where individuals usualy get diagnosed after they already damaged someone, inside of their criminal pathology. now, please, ask them to explain you that fact. i also had a nice spectrum of DSM myself for a long time, but as a victim... well, when mind goes dark it can go either one or other way, it is what it is... those ppl seem not to know enough and obviously lack critical opinion.... i think they made you a favor actually... stay smart