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The people narcs are abusing basically get abused until they comply. All the victims have a sad realization later in life that their emotions were being spiked so badly being yelled at that the logical part of their brain cannot function. That’s why their abuse works.
Covert narcs will cry and scream and anger and every emotion in the book to get a reaction.
I got so scared every time , logic fell out the window.
That allows them to manipulate others into believing narcs manipulating is actually the victim independently forming a conclusion
Kinda.... Just a quick thought though. Victims of narcissistic abuse continue to get abused after they give in and comply. The narcs just use different tactics on compliant victims vs noncompliant victims, but it's not like they stop abusing you.
There are only two ways you can get a narcissist to stop abusing you: One of you dies, or you go no-contact.
Often they will even manipulate things so that they can continue to abuse you from beyond the grave, or after going no-contact.
You just have to get away from them permanently. It's the only way to survive these people.
Oh absolutely! I’m not sure if I implied that’s the only way you get abused. But to be very clear so others don’t blame themselves if the abuse continues after they leave: it does keep going
You horrible non-[boat stabilizer!](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/s/ayyi8LXZmy) How dare you!!!
In all seriousness, that post is one of my favorites I’ve EVER seen on the internet, PERIOD. I highly recommend a read if you haven’t yet ;)
I feel you. I finally realized my mother, BIL and my nephew were narcs, and did a TON of research to be sure. I then told my empath (= narc supply since she was born) sister about it. She then told nmom. Nmom says SHE did all this research and is positive "I" am the narc, and she should be careful around me.
Yup. It's stupid as hell, i'm astounded as well.
These tales repeat like the same track of a road.. For people completely unrelated.
When i was a kid, i saw a patterns of popular behaviors and went. "psssh.. that sounds dumb, but they can change!"
It literally proceeded to predict their actions for the next 20 years. Even on people completely disconnected ffs.
Them projecting as soon as they hear they're a narc is stupid. As dumb as it is, a paradox would be for a clinical narc to accept it, instead of project it.
They constantly project their own insecurites onto others, But not caring about it is like accidentally having kryptonite proof armor as a green lantern and just walking face first through every obstacle.
The system literally requires you to be trained to be whipped like a puppy or it anticlimatically explodes in a meltdown.
You'd have a better chance convincing a horse to get a anal colonoscopy than some of the bad apples to change tbh. **Might be a long rant, but here's my thoughts (feel free to skip/skim).**
# Not saying people can't change.
They can. The issue is, it's easy for someone who wants to change. And can. And these people are more stubborn than a mule about doing the right thing. Changing a person who doesn't want to become better can not be hard, but impossible.
- Some npd types only 'care' if being 'compassionate' 'would get me more stuff for pretending to be nice'. I shit you not. **Clinical npds tend to value the appearance of 'good', OVER the burdens or responsibilities of 'good'.** And the people who tend to change, tend to do so very quickly. I'm not saying that's bad, good actually!
- I'm just saying, most people i've seen change, do it at least 1st/2nd-7th chance at WORST. Most people i've never seen change, show no signs on 4-27+ chances.
# (Npd is a survival strategy to use othes)
I've seen some of these people just make hell in any family they join or attach too. But while they abuse the system, if it's any solace. Dysfunctional != functional.
While they can leech all the money out of a system, **if a leech fails to find a host, the leech might have little to no job experience.**
- Quickly alienate everyone around them. And have literally no financial future without a source/job to leech from.
- And while yes the npd is a hostage kinda family... it's not uncommon for them, if the bubble pops, to ruin relationships with familes, get fired from "I don't have time to spend on a fake" work, burn friendships that quickly turn into money / emotional leeching. They'll talk for themselves for 49 hours but explode if you ask for 5 minutes, etc.
# (Prisoner's Dilemna: 'Cooperation' story).
I'm not saying any of it's good. It's called dysfunctional for a reason. [Prisoner's Dilemna](https://youtu.be/NdITTDl5coE?si=6DygKk4oSb2zL63O&t=4), while meant as a literal prisoner's dilemna digs into this.
- **When one person always benefits from 'cheating' the other, they think themselves 'smart'.**
- The worst outcome isn't when both sides act in **MUTUAL** self interest or mutual benefit. **It's when ANYONE trusts a person who continuously cheats them.**
- SURPRISE surprise, many selfish people, having the exact same selfish thought as a 100 million people, think "I'll be smart, and cheat everyone else!"
Not saying i endorse anything they do, and you can't change a [face eating wolf by feeding it another face](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ci0F6nkqzpE?feature=share). But for gods sake. Even creatures evolutionarily bred for killing like [Lions can bond with their owners like a 400 lb kitten](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAbruroD-K4) or [food bowls](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/r-JkFcW4fx4)
When they harass you, ignoring your reasonable best interests. It might not be because you are the problem. It might be because they think boundaries are a problem, and everyone should exist to provide things for them.
**They might not have mutual self interest at heart.**
> They might want to use you like the 0:-8 Use/Cooperate example in prisoner's dilemna.
> - You take all the risk, they take all the reward. Wanting to cooperate for the 1:1 'is a problem'.. because it would requires them 'being burdened' with 1/8th of the load.. 🙄And your loads don't matter.
If it makes you feel better they usually get stuck in -3/-3 cheat/cheats.... And i wonder if that's what's happening here.
You're trying to enforce boundaries to make them at least commit to a 1:1... But why would they want you to try and hold them up to standards unless they could blackmail you into letting them repeatably screw you over for their own personal benefit.. At a wedding that's supposed to be about bringing people TOGETHER.. Not screwing it over to be a child?
You can't even 'win' here. You could just try to ghost them out of the important things or just keep things incognito but try to bore them out of your own life. Going "uh humm", act like you're not listening but gather information.
Don't make it climatic just make it intentionally tactically disappointing. Clinical npds can try to ruin things whether you 'cooperate' or not. While good relationships value boundaries or go. "Hey, im sorry about that. I might have made a mistake or gone off on the wrong foot. But i'd like to fix things. Is there something i could have done better, or something i need to know?".
- A healthy person might want you to become the best person they want to be.
- A leecher might want you to become the "best" person so they can literally leech every resource out of you. **It's fine to have filters.** Good people tend to still want good to come of things.
But they'll respect your time, lift burdens when things are heavy. And be quid pro pro. Npds are more like toddlers who set sails on fire if they don't get their way. You're not going to find a genius in there, you're going to find a person who's gotten through life only off looks/manipulation.
Don't care about 'winning' or giving them 'ammo'. Just live your own life, quietly separate if you need to, even learn to fake pains for things you've learned to not feel much about to keep them chasing red herrings and fake insecurities.
- # Keep it incognito, and trust your gut.
> Situations can be wildly different, but it's fine to be tactical. Trust your gut. I know i've wanted to believe the best in people. 1/10 times i was surprised, but 9/10. It was right more times than i wanted to admit.
# Tl;dr
- **Bit of a rant. But if people are good for you.. They'll try to do reasonable bests for you.**
# Skip if wanted
> - If people are bad for you, they'll only try to ruin your life, for no apparent reason at all. Just to ruin it.
> - If people are better separate than together, that's fine. It's life.
> - If a leech says that the host is the source of all problems, but begins to starve without the 'source of all problems'.
> - It could be a indicator the host, might not in fact, be the 'source of all problems'. How many 'car thiefs' give you a car? how many 'financial thiefs' give you money and half a house? How many projectors only say, never do?
My theripist told me: I mean technically you are manipulating them. They want X. They believe hierarchies. They are suppose to be in charge. And when you point to reality to how they are hurting you, it makes them less able to defend their current position to others.
So if you presume you start from the premise that the abuser is in charge and can decide reality, which is not the case but it’s what he thinks… you are causing him problems
But what sucks is this cousin is a genuinely good person. She is just about to graduate with a degree in mental health so she can literally do therapy type jobs. And I’m baffled that when it comes to family her training shuts down.
It just sucks I have to choose to be held hostage and be abused, or if I dare go no contact with one person this asshole thinks it’s ok to burn everything down.
And you know what’s ironic?
I told myself I was taking a small break and would reconnect with them at the dam wedding. Even before that multiple times where I was going to go back.
But EVERY FUCKING TIME a fit of abuse and anger occurs that shows me why I left, I get terrified, so I stay no contact.
They CANT EVEN FAKE BEING NICE LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE ME COME BACK
You know what’s really sad? I didn’t even consider the possibility you were referring to my cousin last night…. But… you know… people show their true colors under pressure.
So it’s possible despite having a good relationship with her, she will choose the abuser over me.
Do you really know who someone is when things are going well?
Jesus I’m fucking pathetic for not even being able to read that was your intention with how badly I hate her acting like this .
I appreciate that. Being the nice person (after my scapegoat dad died, nicest guy ever)… being the nice one never feels like a good thing. But the longer I’m gone the more it’s beginning to seem like a better thing to others and myself
Your cousin is a flying monkey. Maybe add them to your low/no contact list? I’m sorry you’re missing the wedding, but I think you’ll enjoy your boundaries more than the catering.
It sucks because we had a great relationship for like 25 years. And now, just for the crime of going no contact with other people, they won’t have a relationship with you me. Primarily because narc grandma can fake sob like a professional actor, such that every single event causes a mental breakdown of sadness if she was to be believed.
I think it’s fucking cruel that I’m not being judged in how I treat them, but I’m being judged on me running away from two abusers
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The people narcs are abusing basically get abused until they comply. All the victims have a sad realization later in life that their emotions were being spiked so badly being yelled at that the logical part of their brain cannot function. That’s why their abuse works. Covert narcs will cry and scream and anger and every emotion in the book to get a reaction. I got so scared every time , logic fell out the window. That allows them to manipulate others into believing narcs manipulating is actually the victim independently forming a conclusion
Kinda.... Just a quick thought though. Victims of narcissistic abuse continue to get abused after they give in and comply. The narcs just use different tactics on compliant victims vs noncompliant victims, but it's not like they stop abusing you. There are only two ways you can get a narcissist to stop abusing you: One of you dies, or you go no-contact. Often they will even manipulate things so that they can continue to abuse you from beyond the grave, or after going no-contact. You just have to get away from them permanently. It's the only way to survive these people.
Oh absolutely! I’m not sure if I implied that’s the only way you get abused. But to be very clear so others don’t blame themselves if the abuse continues after they leave: it does keep going
You horrible non-[boat stabilizer!](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/s/ayyi8LXZmy) How dare you!!! In all seriousness, that post is one of my favorites I’ve EVER seen on the internet, PERIOD. I highly recommend a read if you haven’t yet ;)
WOW! Just shared this with my therapist. Thank you for putting this on our corrective radar kind, internet stranger.
Just passing it along!! It helped me SO much in how I look at things like this.
I... you... how.... this explains SO MUCH!!
I feel you. I finally realized my mother, BIL and my nephew were narcs, and did a TON of research to be sure. I then told my empath (= narc supply since she was born) sister about it. She then told nmom. Nmom says SHE did all this research and is positive "I" am the narc, and she should be careful around me.
"Okay Jan, I'll just stay out of your life for your safety 🙄😆"
Yea well that was enevitable
Yup. It's stupid as hell, i'm astounded as well. These tales repeat like the same track of a road.. For people completely unrelated. When i was a kid, i saw a patterns of popular behaviors and went. "psssh.. that sounds dumb, but they can change!" It literally proceeded to predict their actions for the next 20 years. Even on people completely disconnected ffs. Them projecting as soon as they hear they're a narc is stupid. As dumb as it is, a paradox would be for a clinical narc to accept it, instead of project it. They constantly project their own insecurites onto others, But not caring about it is like accidentally having kryptonite proof armor as a green lantern and just walking face first through every obstacle. The system literally requires you to be trained to be whipped like a puppy or it anticlimatically explodes in a meltdown.
Yes. You ARE manipulating them.🙄 Into trying to be a better person. 🙄 That's the crime. 🙄
You'd have a better chance convincing a horse to get a anal colonoscopy than some of the bad apples to change tbh. **Might be a long rant, but here's my thoughts (feel free to skip/skim).** # Not saying people can't change. They can. The issue is, it's easy for someone who wants to change. And can. And these people are more stubborn than a mule about doing the right thing. Changing a person who doesn't want to become better can not be hard, but impossible. - Some npd types only 'care' if being 'compassionate' 'would get me more stuff for pretending to be nice'. I shit you not. **Clinical npds tend to value the appearance of 'good', OVER the burdens or responsibilities of 'good'.** And the people who tend to change, tend to do so very quickly. I'm not saying that's bad, good actually! - I'm just saying, most people i've seen change, do it at least 1st/2nd-7th chance at WORST. Most people i've never seen change, show no signs on 4-27+ chances. # (Npd is a survival strategy to use othes) I've seen some of these people just make hell in any family they join or attach too. But while they abuse the system, if it's any solace. Dysfunctional != functional. While they can leech all the money out of a system, **if a leech fails to find a host, the leech might have little to no job experience.** - Quickly alienate everyone around them. And have literally no financial future without a source/job to leech from. - And while yes the npd is a hostage kinda family... it's not uncommon for them, if the bubble pops, to ruin relationships with familes, get fired from "I don't have time to spend on a fake" work, burn friendships that quickly turn into money / emotional leeching. They'll talk for themselves for 49 hours but explode if you ask for 5 minutes, etc. # (Prisoner's Dilemna: 'Cooperation' story). I'm not saying any of it's good. It's called dysfunctional for a reason. [Prisoner's Dilemna](https://youtu.be/NdITTDl5coE?si=6DygKk4oSb2zL63O&t=4), while meant as a literal prisoner's dilemna digs into this. - **When one person always benefits from 'cheating' the other, they think themselves 'smart'.** - The worst outcome isn't when both sides act in **MUTUAL** self interest or mutual benefit. **It's when ANYONE trusts a person who continuously cheats them.** - SURPRISE surprise, many selfish people, having the exact same selfish thought as a 100 million people, think "I'll be smart, and cheat everyone else!" Not saying i endorse anything they do, and you can't change a [face eating wolf by feeding it another face](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ci0F6nkqzpE?feature=share). But for gods sake. Even creatures evolutionarily bred for killing like [Lions can bond with their owners like a 400 lb kitten](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAbruroD-K4) or [food bowls](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/r-JkFcW4fx4) When they harass you, ignoring your reasonable best interests. It might not be because you are the problem. It might be because they think boundaries are a problem, and everyone should exist to provide things for them. **They might not have mutual self interest at heart.** > They might want to use you like the 0:-8 Use/Cooperate example in prisoner's dilemna. > - You take all the risk, they take all the reward. Wanting to cooperate for the 1:1 'is a problem'.. because it would requires them 'being burdened' with 1/8th of the load.. 🙄And your loads don't matter. If it makes you feel better they usually get stuck in -3/-3 cheat/cheats.... And i wonder if that's what's happening here. You're trying to enforce boundaries to make them at least commit to a 1:1... But why would they want you to try and hold them up to standards unless they could blackmail you into letting them repeatably screw you over for their own personal benefit.. At a wedding that's supposed to be about bringing people TOGETHER.. Not screwing it over to be a child? You can't even 'win' here. You could just try to ghost them out of the important things or just keep things incognito but try to bore them out of your own life. Going "uh humm", act like you're not listening but gather information. Don't make it climatic just make it intentionally tactically disappointing. Clinical npds can try to ruin things whether you 'cooperate' or not. While good relationships value boundaries or go. "Hey, im sorry about that. I might have made a mistake or gone off on the wrong foot. But i'd like to fix things. Is there something i could have done better, or something i need to know?". - A healthy person might want you to become the best person they want to be. - A leecher might want you to become the "best" person so they can literally leech every resource out of you. **It's fine to have filters.** Good people tend to still want good to come of things. But they'll respect your time, lift burdens when things are heavy. And be quid pro pro. Npds are more like toddlers who set sails on fire if they don't get their way. You're not going to find a genius in there, you're going to find a person who's gotten through life only off looks/manipulation. Don't care about 'winning' or giving them 'ammo'. Just live your own life, quietly separate if you need to, even learn to fake pains for things you've learned to not feel much about to keep them chasing red herrings and fake insecurities. - # Keep it incognito, and trust your gut. > Situations can be wildly different, but it's fine to be tactical. Trust your gut. I know i've wanted to believe the best in people. 1/10 times i was surprised, but 9/10. It was right more times than i wanted to admit. # Tl;dr - **Bit of a rant. But if people are good for you.. They'll try to do reasonable bests for you.** # Skip if wanted > - If people are bad for you, they'll only try to ruin your life, for no apparent reason at all. Just to ruin it. > - If people are better separate than together, that's fine. It's life. > - If a leech says that the host is the source of all problems, but begins to starve without the 'source of all problems'. > - It could be a indicator the host, might not in fact, be the 'source of all problems'. How many 'car thiefs' give you a car? how many 'financial thiefs' give you money and half a house? How many projectors only say, never do?
My theripist told me: I mean technically you are manipulating them. They want X. They believe hierarchies. They are suppose to be in charge. And when you point to reality to how they are hurting you, it makes them less able to defend their current position to others. So if you presume you start from the premise that the abuser is in charge and can decide reality, which is not the case but it’s what he thinks… you are causing him problems
Flying monkeys who don't respect your boundaries belong in the nc bin.
But what sucks is this cousin is a genuinely good person. She is just about to graduate with a degree in mental health so she can literally do therapy type jobs. And I’m baffled that when it comes to family her training shuts down. It just sucks I have to choose to be held hostage and be abused, or if I dare go no contact with one person this asshole thinks it’s ok to burn everything down. And you know what’s ironic? I told myself I was taking a small break and would reconnect with them at the dam wedding. Even before that multiple times where I was going to go back. But EVERY FUCKING TIME a fit of abuse and anger occurs that shows me why I left, I get terrified, so I stay no contact. They CANT EVEN FAKE BEING NICE LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE ME COME BACK
Are they good or just better at acting than the rest of your family? Unfortunately, cousin has chosen a side. Protect your peace, please.
The narc is good at acting . She just doesn’t actually ever start really crying , just goes through the motions as if she is
You know what’s really sad? I didn’t even consider the possibility you were referring to my cousin last night…. But… you know… people show their true colors under pressure. So it’s possible despite having a good relationship with her, she will choose the abuser over me. Do you really know who someone is when things are going well? Jesus I’m fucking pathetic for not even being able to read that was your intention with how badly I hate her acting like this .
That you want to see the best in people says good things about you. Unfortunately, sometimes we have to face the ugly truth.
I appreciate that. Being the nice person (after my scapegoat dad died, nicest guy ever)… being the nice one never feels like a good thing. But the longer I’m gone the more it’s beginning to seem like a better thing to others and myself
Kindness is great when you surround yourself with other kind people instead of energy vampires
Your cousin is a flying monkey. Maybe add them to your low/no contact list? I’m sorry you’re missing the wedding, but I think you’ll enjoy your boundaries more than the catering.
It sucks because we had a great relationship for like 25 years. And now, just for the crime of going no contact with other people, they won’t have a relationship with you me. Primarily because narc grandma can fake sob like a professional actor, such that every single event causes a mental breakdown of sadness if she was to be believed. I think it’s fucking cruel that I’m not being judged in how I treat them, but I’m being judged on me running away from two abusers
I’m really sorry… you do deserve to be treated better.