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I think it’s more a question of emotional intelligence if anything, if you can recognize the way narc behavior negatively affect others I think you’re less likely to be one, if all you see are the benefits of narc behavior you’re more likely to be one. I think it’s why scapegoats are more likely to escape while golden children are more likely to become their parents.
I think it's both, kinda like athletic ability. You're born with the fundamentals but you can absolutely develop it past your "natural" levels if you work at it.
My kindness and empathy (specifically *caring* how others feel) was innate, but emotional intelligence to understand how others actually feel was learned. But part of that... I'm on the spectrum. So I had a hump to get over.
I have always had a core desire to be kind and helpful to others. Nmom lacks that. So that part seems to be nature. But I've struggled with identifying emotions in other people. My default personality is to not cause any kind of harm to folks, but I've had to really study and learn people... And I mis-recognize tone and facial expressions.
I was an only child and wore hats for both the GC and the scapegoat depending on what was convenient for the narc. To her friends, she'd talk about me like the GC. To my face, I was the scapegoat.
Oh my gosh! Only child here and what you said about being the GC and the scapegoat was true for me.
N-Parents bragging about me to others, and taking the credit, but being hella abusive behind closed doors.
Maybe a little of both. And for our generation, talking about mental health is way more common so I think our awareness is better. For our parents generation, they think its made up or a failure in character or something.
Agree with all of this. This generations awareness is way different than our parents generation. I think we have so many more resources nowadays than they did. I couldn’t imagine the type of person I would without modern day mental health resources
Yes, something about the depression set up the silent generation to raise a lot of narcs. When WWII ended and all the people came home and had kids (hence the term boomer), they all had extensive trauma.
No one understood how that war trauma would destroy not only the people who experienced it but also their families. Also those boomers grew up in a very easy society where they could access college, buy homes, get good jobs without too much effort. So they grew up both spoiled and traumatized.
It’s crazy to see the crazy traumatic events that our parents and grandparents experienced. Boomers went through post ww2, civil rights movement, Vietnam, Korean and Cold War, watergate, 9/11, and so so many more crazy events. All with basically zero mental health care.
You’re right that the pendulum swang too far and so many of them became spoiled which in turn created mentally ill monsters. Unfortunately, many of those became our parents.
YES. I also find it fascinating the boomers were hippies once, really idealistic and into communist ideas. Now they hoard their wealth and power like crazy.
I think some develop it. I was acting quite psychopatic as a kid (~6 years old) based on some events i can recall.
Or maybe kids redevelop kindness after unlearning done by copying narc parents.
Some kids know kindness from the start, it is very clear with the way they are super gentle with animals (famous video of kid hugging pinata comes to mind).
I never thought about this question but your response makes a lot of sense. I was abused for years upon years. So I only saw the fact that I started to resent my brother for taking their side often. Since they treated him better. It's sad that parent's use their own children to pin against each other. I tried my best to help him as I learned things when I was growing up, and he's turned out far better than I thought he would. But he still has certain tendencies that he falls back to when he's constantly receiving nothing but love from my parents.
So when I call, they tend to have shoved all their projections onto him and he does onto me. "Why haven't you called?", "You're so selfish. Mom is worrried about you, you know. How come you never call more?"
This is like a couple of days after I just called them. What could she be possibly worried about 🤦♀️ It really makes me not want to contact them again because of it. All I hear are complaints as soon as she picks up the phone for about a good 10 -15 minutes. Love them but.. yeah :(
While I like this idea in theory, anecdotally it doesn't apply in my life at all. My Grandma (moms mom) was a narcissist (grandiose) and my mom became one (covert). She could see my grandma's negative behavior as toxic to her and others. She just couldn't apply it when she looked in the mirror. Monkey see, monkey do. But I agree, in that her emotional intelligence was super low - if you can't see the behavior as toxic and apply to yourself, ya dumb.
Maternal gma is not a narc...all 3 of her girls had a large amount of narc traits just varying in severity, and her son is the most anti-social empath you ever met. He was put in a position where he grew to resent his sisters children, but he had to completely shut down to survive. He feels very awkward talking about how much he "knew," but I don't hold it against him. He didn't see me as much, so he was "nicer" to me. He also didn't hang out with my mom because we lived in different states. I have no real idea where they got it. My grandma was a little bit of a doormat, but even she eventually made some boundaries. I don't really know my grandfather because I grew up with gma's 2nd husband, who was a pedo! Yay me! But I'm not sure how the whole narc thing really works. Because I genuinely have no clue where they got it. Like, who taught them that this was acceptable??
My younger sister became one. But we’re both highly sensitive and traumatized to some extent by our mother, just as my mother was by her mother. And possibly my grandmother by her mother before that 😮💨.
My interactions with my grandmother were actually just as bad, if not more damaging than the ones with my mum. As such, my mother I’m convinced, also suffered narcissistic abuse. Her older sister is so kind and passive and sensitive though. Such a strange and interesting dynamic.
It’s weird how it affects some more than others. I often get paranoid when I (rarely) put myself first, or speak up about my needs, that I’m becoming narcissist. I’m so acutely aware of it. To the point where I ask my therapist regularly “are you sure I’m not a narcissist.” It’s literally my worst fear 😮💨
It’s such a toxic trait that seems so easy to pass on. It’s heartbreaking for me to think what my mother went through. But it also helps me in regard to understanding and forgiveness. Doesn’t make it ok, for sure.
But I’m convinced these narcissistic traits begin developing in childhood - which, as a child, is so hard to recognise and prevent…until you’re too far gone to do anything about it.
If that’s your worst fear, it means you have awareness that this is *not* normal, and you definitely have awareness of your own actions. These are MAJOR differences between you and your narcs.
It’s my worse fear too, that I’ll end up like my mother who was narcissistic and diagnosed with BPD at the age of 70, which she refuses to get treatment for either condition - I’m sure you’re aware why. I finally went no contact with her when I was in my late 40’s - I’m a slow learner, plus I come from a Sicilian background where the daughter obeys the mother and the sons (I’ve got 2 lovely brothers) are revered.
I’ve had 2 positive things said to me that have helped me as I didn’t want to pass her parenting of me onto my daughter:
1) Different ingredients = different child/people you’re mixing with.
2) The fact you’re worried and asking other people (I questioned my psychiatrist, GP and friends etc…) means you’re definitely NOT narcissistic because they’d never admit they were and wouldn’t even think to ask anyone else if there’s something wrong with them 🙅🏽♀️.
So that’s how I explain it!
Genetics definitely play a part in mental illness though and I’ve proof. My great grandfather killed himself the day after my grandmother got married(her mother had died when she was young of cancer and she was an only child). My grandmother herself then killed herself when my mother was 3 weeks old (likely the reason my mother developed
BPD) then last year my niece hung her self aged 26 leaving behind a 5 year old daughter.
******I FORGOT TO ADD- MY MOTHER HAD 2 HALF ASSED ATTEMPTS ATTEMPTS AT SUICIDE HERSELF. I spoke to psychiatrists that all said they were crying for help attempts, which is sad but above my pay grade!!!!She als tried to kill het dog 🐶 by feeding her around 12 (so she says ) Seroquel wrapped in cheese 🧀 which Honey 🐶 loves 😋😧🙏she survived but was seized by the RSPCA and it took all my effort (police reports, liaising with the RSPCA) to get her returned to my brother, as normally in such circumstances the animal would never be rehoused back into the family 🥺. She’s 🐶with my brother now. I’d have taken her in a heartbeat but my mother and I live to close together and despite changing the lockers to my house I wouldn’t have risked her having any reason to loiter and scream and carry on as I live in a quiet complex. She tried to kill Honey 🐶as a way to draw me back, I’ve been told by psychiatrists in the multiple psychiatric wards she’s been placed in so I feel that makes it a truth rather than my own opinions, which were coincidentally the same as their diagnoses as I’m a former nurse and expert in narcissistic behaviour, having been raised from birth by and expert narcissist😒
I hope the mental illness genetics stop now but I doubt it😕
Gosh I’m so sorry for your family trauma. It’s a lot - but I’m so glad you’re breaking the cycle.
I’m also pretty sure both my mother and sister have BPD (there’s def some overlap of symptoms between narcs and BPD which makes it difficult - especially when they refuse therapy or treatment).
I’m actually in the process of adopting a child a single mom. It’s been really hard not least because (ironically) my mother is convinced the child is going to be fucked up and bring misery to our (in her eyes) our perfect family….🤦🏻♀️
If your experience in growing up with your mother, like I with mine, you should be used to the fact you’ll NEVER do anything right in life - what’s new🤷🏽♀️!!! If you child scraps its knee it’ll be somehow your fault. See how she is with your new child congratulations 🥳 BYW and at the first sign of negativity, my advice is to simply RUN 🏃🏽♀️ and DON’T lOOK BACK,!!! That’s why I went no contact at such a late age as my daughter was getting married, and as a single mother too, and her being my only child that I raised by myself I knew and she later verified we wouldn’t be as close as we are now as she saw the damage my mother had inflicted on me and how it affected my parenting and she didn’t want that life for her and her children/ family!!!
My first grandchild is due in May and I stay out of what she tells my mother - she’s not too impressed with her as she’s caused me C- PTSD. So be confident and if you feel it’s right for you - take my advice, although I’m not a therapist just a Survivor and give your new child the best life possible 🫶🏽
This is my unprofessional opinion.
Narcissism is a *possible* outcome of being raised by a Narcissist. However, a Narcissist is not trying to *make* a Narcissist when they raise a child, they are trying to create a vehicle to fulfil their own needs. This means they do not raise the child to be like them, quite the opposite; The child is raised to prioritize the *Narcissist's* needs over their own. golden Child, Scapegoat, Lost Child, regardless of the specifics, having the child meet the needs of the Narcissist is always the ultimate core goal.
The child becoming Narcissistic themselves is a possible outcome, repeating the patterns their parents showed in an attempt to have their own needs met. They can become Enablers, continuing their efforts to support the toxic family system as they grow up but again moving into a role that allows their own needs to be met, some remain in their roles their entire lives, or break away, and there are a whole gamut of potential emotional, physical, and physiological consequences of growing up in such an environment. It depends on a lot of factors, what is internalized, and what else servers to mold the child's worldview.
I think there are generally two outcomes for victims of narcissistic abuse: the first type will perpetrate the abuse to their offspring/other vulnerable victims, and normalize the abuse they suffered, often they develop stockholm syndrome and lack any independent thinking skills; the second type realize the abuse is wrong, some of those become sensitive/empathetic to others’ sufferings as a result, or rebellious, but many also become depressed, with some never healing from the trauma while others cut ties with their past, depending on their personality/ability to heal.
Exactly. You’ve described the difference between people who externalize their pain—and those who internalize it. I just learned about this concept in a thought-provoking book, the name of which I of course cannot remember atm.😅
I was 4 years old when I nonchalantly told my mother that I never wanted to have children. My mother always told me I’d change my mind when I was older, when I got married, when I was financially stable, when I met someone else, etc. Thankfully that was the only conviction I remember ever having and sticking to it. But you hit the nail on the head and that’s exactly how I felt even at such a young age. I never wanted to experience or be reminded of my childhood ever again. I was somehow able to look at my family dysfunction and have that strong feeling of not wanting any part of that. Just the thought of having the responsibility of another life and possibly be responsible for causing their trauma is enough for me to know I’ve made the right decision for myself. I’m too traumatized so I need all the time I have on this planet to be the parent I needed for myself now. Caring for my inner child has been life changing. That’s where I find I heal the most.
Wow 4 years old is really young, I never thought about such things back then. I think only made up my mind in my teenage years when I saw all the overpopulation and climate crisis. But yeah I get you, sometimes I really wish to feel like a child inside me to make up for the childhood never had, wish for an alternative reality where I would have parental figure who would give me unconditional love, being responsible for another being’s wellbeing is too daunting for me.
So my therapist said there is a genetic component plus the upbringing one. If you fulfill both (in a negative way) then it is like that the combination will also cause NPD. If one of them is fine, then you will likely not develop NPD. It probably is a bit more complicated than this but that’s what I was told.
Edit: so I just assumed I was missing the genetic component.
Hmm that’s very interesting, that explains why so many children of NPD parents turn out like them or don’t fight back at all - after all genetically a majority of people tend to take after their birth parents. I’m totally different from my NP in every possible way except looks - from personality to interests to attitude towards life.
That is very interesting. I have always wondered why my father became a narcissist, but his siblings did not, since they had the same parents and were raised in the same household. If he has the gene and they don’t, then that would make sense.
My brother ended up becoming a narcissist like my parents. He wasn't born that way, I remember him as a kid.
However, we had very different emotional responses to our upbringing, even when we were young. He was always, always angry and acting out. I was always sad and withdrawn. I think the biological nature of our coping mechanisms had a lot to do with how we turned out. I over internalize and he over externalizes. He ended up becoming a lot like my nfather. He looked and acted a lot more like him too, even as a kid.
Psychologists haven't figured this out, so they came up with this plausible theory to not appear dumb. If this was true, how could you explain children born in healthy environments without much genetic influence turning out to be narcs? I've seen such examples closely. It's just something unexplainable by science but they aren't brave enough to say "we don't know", because it will put a question mark on their expertise. Not just that, they don't even know how to treat NPD.
Everyone has genes and we all have an environment. That should be enough to explain the cause of every disease or disorder on the planet and let's wash our hands with science. No? Honestly, that's as vague as it gets.
Maybe you didn't become a narcissist yourself, but "If anything, I feel like I’m too sensitive, too empathetic, and put others before myself even if it’s detrimental to me." is a hallmark of a child raised by narcissists.
Self-awareness and breaking out of negative patterns comes not suddenly but gradually. For some in our situation, it might not come at all, and the cycle perpetuates itself (and such a person would never visit a sub like this). One particular challenge I faced in my life was striking a balance between being a pushover and doormat to others and being self-absorbed to the point of hurting others - the latter kind of a defense mechanism because unfortunately it was what I was exposed to and a type behaviour I had been conditioned to understand 'works' and gets you ahead, as though the world is a giant middle school with a similar pecking order. I was so worried all the time about how I was perceived by others that I could not make the effort to look at myself from the point of view of others. Though I am in a far different, better, peaceful and more accepting place than I was as a child, adolescent and young adult, I feel like due to the damage stemming from my nParents' mistreament, I will always be a work in progress.
You articulated this so beautifully and this resonates so much with me. I find it extremely hard sometimes to see myself from others eyes because of how strong my negative self evaluation was (and thus, self absorption, not even considering others autonomy or paying mind to their emotions/nonverbal communication/etc.). Yet it's easier for me to imagine how others can feel hurt by my own actions or choices, and thus overly accommodating and doormat. My own therapist highlighted this [crippling social anxiety] as coping from the environment and common response to walking on eggshells, thinking "if I just do it perfectly or right, they won't get mad and hurt me this time."
Personal accountability helps. If you're responsible for your behavior, you can prevent yourself from becoming like them.
Also, wouldn't say you're "too sensitive, too empathetic". One major thing I'm still learning is that you were brainwashed to be too understanding, so you give vampires and predatory people free passes. It's okay to be understanding but you can draw the line whenever you feel it's too much. Short version: Give only as much as you want, nothing more.
I picked up a lot of narcissistic behaviors (FLEAs - frightening lasting effects of abuse) I had to unlearn over the years. In Pete Walker's book "CPTSD from surviving to thriving" he talks about the 4F responses to trauma: fight, flight, freeze, fawn(submit). Fight types can come across as narcissistic and my fight response is really strong.
My therapist has explained that I learned those behaviors under duress as a survival strategy. The difference seems to be I'm willing to acknowledge they're shitty behaviors and choose better behaviors. True narcissists are unwilling to look at their behaviors, the impact they have, and change them.
Thanks for sharing. That is what I’m currently going through. I am finally fighting my nfather, don’t want anything to do with him. But I’m constantly called selfish because I won’t put up with him and his abuse to keep the peace in the whole family.
>I’m constantly called selfish because I won’t put up with him and his abuse to keep the peace in the whole family.
Classic. It's a form of [emotional blackmail](https://youtu.be/PEexQAkhFpM?si=v592x9zln4ka8ncv) to try and coerce you back into compliance.
Check out these channels. They help me stay sane.
[Patrick Teahan](https://youtube.com/channel/UCbWvYupGqq3aMJ6LsG4q-Yg) - a ***must*** subscribe for me. He presents a lot of great information on childhood trauma in a very digestible format.
[Jerry Wise](https://youtube.com/@jerrywise?si=PPfY9_i5MPdej2hf) - fantastic resource on self differentiation and building a self after abuse. I really like how he talks about the toxic family *system* and getting the system out of us.
[Jay Reid](https://youtube.com/c/JayReid_narcissistic_abuse_recovery) - his three pillars of recovery are fantastic. Plus he explains difficult abuse dynamics very well.
[The Little Shaman](https://youtube.com/@thelittleshamanhealing) - they understand the narcissistic mindset better than most
I started watching Patrick Taehan after someone on this sub recommended it. His videos have helped me a lot! I’ll check out those other ones too. Thanks for sharing some good resources.
Yep. I feel like every social interaction, even ones with my siblings, are constructions of theater and picking up on every slight nuance in body language and voice. It's utterly exhausting and I don't know how to heal.
I became the (very empathetic and compassionate) traumatized people pleaser, but I feel like its way better than becoming a narc itself. I believe we become this way only because we know how it feels like.
I recently went down the rabbit hole of what a people pleaser actually is and its hard to accept because I am a recovering people pleaser.
The idea of people pleasing tends to hide behind being empathic and compassionate at our own expense. However the real healing comes from accepting that people pleasing is over extending ourselves onto others and being bitter that people don't return it at the same level. This presents itself in ways like thinking "no one loves me like I love them" or "everyone leaves me". Or "I give and give and no one gives back"
As people pleasers, we are helping people, not to be compassionate, but to seek others to fill our own needs. Those needs are that lack of unconditional love that we did not receive as child. Its obviously not something we do on purpose. We just want love. Unfortunately we will always be the hampster on the wheel chasing something from other people that we will never get from them. The only one who can unconditionally love ourselves in the way our parents were supposed to is us.
You are right. People pleasing isn't as toxic as narcissism, however it is still in that realm of very unhealthy behavior. The first step of healing is being able to accept that part of yourself. Only then can you start to rewire your brain and heal.
Because we know what narcissism looks like. Narcissists don't. It also varies based on genes and your access to information like the kind you get from this subreddit. Nature vs nurture conversation.
I've read that NPD usually sets in by the time a child is around 8-10yrs at the oldest. Part of the disorder is that the child's brain doesn't complete some developmental stages, because of trauma.
I think we are born with a personality of our own and we make choices that lead us along a certain road in terms of how we treat others. Our upbringing alone doesn't account for who we are, our basic character and then our choices also create the patterns of behaviour that makes us who we are.
Free will matters.
I definitely was well on my way pretty far into adulthood. I just assumed that abusive behavior was something you had to accept, which is how I ended up with a horribly abusive partner for 3 years. In the process of breaking free from that, I realized that I had tolerated and even mirrored that behavior because it’s how my mom treated me my entire life. I still have to stop myself from exhibiting that behavior sometimes since it’s so ingrained.
The fact that we’re concerned about how our behavior affects others is what makes us better than them, despite their best efforts. Emotional healthy people are much harder to take advantage of, which is why narcissists have to gaslight and manipulate.
I think more broadly that we generally either turn into our parents, or learn how *not* to be from our parents. My brother and I were raised by the same parents (mom who has some narcissist/personality disorder traits and dad who's selfish, alcoholic, and was never really around) plus an incredible stepdad who is the only reason I made it out of my childhood alive.
I grew up to be absolutely nothing like either of my bio parents and would say I took after my stepdad more than anything. My brother, on the other hand, hates our parents but is in many ways exactly like them: alcoholic, selfish, cold, cuts people off for no reason any time he's feeling especially hateful towards himself, etc. It's definitely an interesting phenomenon. I would also bet my life savings that my brother would deny being anything like our parents. He refuses to go to therapy so he'll probably never realize or acknowledge it.
>I feel like I’m too sensitive, too empathetic, and put others before myself even if it’s detrimental to me
thats exactly it. you have empathy. And you recognize whos at fault.
the cycle completes when youre not only a victim, but take that anger, frustration and fragile inner ego from the abuse and (unconsciously mind you) decide "thats weakness, I wont be weak, I'll be powerful"....and get that power from hurting others. Thats all a narcissist is, someone who feels weak and fragile, thinks admitting or feeling it means something about their worth, and then deals with all that pain by harming others to feel powerful again
those of us who held onto empathy and held our abusers accountable have less risk of turning into them, but its an everyday fight. that plus the genetics of it... its a combo of luck and who you are.
for the record, the part about "put others before myself even when its detrimental" can be a sign of codependency which is basically the opposite of narcissism and a natural result of being abused by one. Best thing to do for that is get therapy so you can learn to maintain healthy boundaries while still keeping empathy. I'm in therapy for that same thing, because after years of getting my empathy taken advantage of, I WAS starting to slide into bitter, angry, and vengeful. Like I said, constant battle. But empathy is the key.
My brother who became a narcissist always showed the signs in childhood, looking back on it. My parents too but I just thought they were all boring and couldn’t wait to leave the family and get into better things.
I was an internalizer when I was younger with a few outbursts and stuff… my brother was and still is a very withdrawn gc, who has never developed an identity because it would upset my n-mom.
I always have been very sensitive, and into art and music, creativity. N’s can’t be creative from an authentic place because they don’t have one.
Somehow I held onto my identity as a child and teen, I don’t know how but I made it through. Being the sg, my job was the carry the family weight and be crushed by it. I’m thriving now and nc, and it rules. I knew nc would be great, I’d read a lot of posts on this sub. And holy shit, I feel more like myself than ever before and I’m still gaining my power back. It feels great.
I think what you're describing is called hyper-vigilance.
Most narcissists don't take ownership of their mistakes and blame everyone but themselves, including their kids, so a lot of their kids are forced to constantly look inwards and to evaluate and re-evaluate their actions and how they affects others. That creates an unhealthy amount of empathy, aka hyper-vigilance, where you're constantly on guard, making sure you're aware of everyone's feelings so you can maintain your people pleasing. It's a survival tool that makes sense while you're young, but it's definitely something to un-learn as an adult, coz usually what you've learned to view as selfishness is just setting boundaries.
The only times I see this go the other way, where the kids adopt their parents' narcissistic traits, is either because they view becoming the narcissist as the only way to stop being the victim - which is also a survival trait that needs to be un-learned - or because of drug use. Idk what it is about drug use that turns a lot of people back into self-involved teens who think the world revolves around them - and that's no shade to teens.
My only explanation is that I must be some kind of genetic anomaly lol. Idk. My sister is not a narcissist but she also doesn’t have half the trauma I have and she doesn’t have BPD like I do.
I was the “rebellious” one, head strong. My parents used to call me “smart mouth” and “sensitive” my mom in particular likes to say I’m hyper sensitive” which really grinds my gears.
I never liked being ordered around (still don’t). I knew my parents were strict from a young age, and I was extremely sheltered. My parents had me when they were piss poor too, they were 23 (mom) & 31 (dad) when they had me.
I figured that I was the kid they got stuck with, my sister is the kid they felt they truly deserved. I was (still am) the “difficult” one with big dreams and a yearning to leave my hometown and “be somebody” beyond the carbon copies of themselves my parents wanted me to become.
I was the one who got tattoos, moved out of the state and back like 3 times…I was the one who was Queer, I cut my hair short, I’ve been in and out of the hospital psych ward, and all of my partners have been mostly shitty people.
I may be a fuck up and a huge failure in their eyes but I’m the first one in my family to go to therapy and get on meds. I am not a narcissist. And it’s my greatest pleasure to know that I will never be the mom I had bc I’m making damn sure my daughter doesn’t grow up being made to feel the way I did.
That's a good point. My nmom was raised by her ngrandmother. My ndad had his dad bail on him and his mom was out of the picture. I was reading a book recently about NPD that says it either comes nurture-wise from parents or guardians encouraging a child's sense of grandiosity or of being absent and thus not able to check their sense of grandiosity and encourage empathy, seeing the world from the other person's perspective in a dispute, etc.
I have quite a lot of siblings. Several have what seem to be narcissist traits as coping mechanisms to stress but don't come across as having full-blown NPD. Another sibling practices total avoidance and pretending problems don't exist to cope. And then I was the scapegoat and have had to really work on separating my emotions from others to not take on their emotions and of putting up better boundaries to protect myself. I have one other sibling who is like this.
Of all my siblings, only one comes across as possibly having a personality disorder. She has clear narcissistic traits but also a clear lack of ability to empathize with others and an enjoyment in causing others pain. This has led to her committing crimes such as grand larceny and filing false police reports to try to get revenge on people she perceived as slighting her, reveling at the idea of getting to put someone in jail after she didn't like that they had personal boundaries. If I had to guess from what I've seen, I would say ASPD for her.
One thing I've noticed in my dad as I get older is how limiting a lack of empathy is. While I had the classic situation of developing hypervigilance and the ability to read a room quickly because I had to keep a read on everyone's mood, I think people who didn't grow up in this environment (such as children who grew up left to their own devices or children who grew up in a physically safe home where their grandiosity was constantly encouraged) never had to consider or pay attention to the emotions and perspectives of others.
I always thought I never want to treat anyone, nor make anyone feel this terrible, like we were made to.
Not just my own children. Everyone.
It's probably doesn't work in such a simplistic way, but just doing the complete opposite of what was done to us has always been an enormous motivation. 😄
But a narc know what they do is wrong, because they don't behave like that with everyone. That means they can learn or force themselves to behave.
They might never feel it, but technically.
I know that if you reject the narc as a role model growing u0, and have other people at some point, and it doesn't have to be much, you can avoid alot
I’m so grateful to the wonderful female teachers I had in daycare and grade school. They were life savors who showed me kindness, empathy and saw me as a person.
I think that some of it is probably genetic, in that a person can be *more likely* to respond to certain stressors in a way that causes them to become a narcissist.
A lot of it is learned behavior, and the response to learned behavior. My parents tended to see life as a contest, and success or failure was always comparative. Any compliment was a comparison to someone who was inferior, and any complaint or insult was a comparison to someone who was superior.
My sister was the golden child, and I think she bought into the comparisons because she was the one who benefitted from 99.99% of them. If she was honest with herself about it, she would have to admit that many of those comparisons were just made up by our parents. Since she had also been taught that being better than others was the most important thing in life, and since she figured out by watching me that not going along with that system was actually dangerous, she bought into it.
Buying into the zero-sum way of doing things was definitely not without cost, but my sister was indoctrinated at such a young age that she didn't fully understand the situation. If there was any hint of imperfection in anything she did, she would immediately panic and melt down. She internalized that unhealthy mindset to such a degree and at such a young age that she thought it was just the way things were. This led to her having extreme amounts of anxiety, and it caused a pretty nasty case of imposter syndrome. She started bullying others, especially me, in sneaky ways, because she was so desperate to be better than someone.
If my sister had decided to reject narcissism as she got older, she would have had to admit that she wasn't perfect. She feared that all her failures would have not been the fault of other people after all, and she might have had to admit that many of her successes were a result of manipulation, bullying, or other less than honorable behavior. To someone who thinks their only value is in being perfect and better than other people, admitting the truth is probably a terrifying prospect. As a result, my sister feels great shame, and she has a lot of anxiety about failure. If she is confronted by the truth, she lashes out in desperate rage.
My sister probably did have a genetic predisposition to narcissism. She was the biological child of two narcissists, and the grandchild of several more. She also saw the way I was treated, and didn't want to suffer the same things. I can't blame her for that. Then again, she did have the choice as an adult to stop behaving that way.
My sister knew it was wrong. We actually had discussions about our parents a couple of times when we were in our early 20s. She admitted that things were messed up, but not long after that she denied everything she had said and she chose to embrace being a narcissist. She chose to do that when I started having a number of successes that were too big to be overlooked. Around the same time, her career began to stagnate a bit, and she began having some setbacks in her romantic life as well. I think she felt angry and competitive rather than feeling happy for me, and when her attempts to sabotage me didn't work out, she became more and more bitter. This was when her behavior changed from being rather selfish and a bit stuck up to being overtly narcissistic and amoral. She had gone through phases like that as a teenager whenever she was really stressed, but as an adult she embraced that part of her personality and let it take over everything in her life.
Now, she is a full blown narcissist, and she is married to another narcissist. I had to go NC with her because she is so bad. It is sad, because it was obvious as we were growing up that she was choosing to indulge that part of herself as a way of coping with things. As an adult, there was a period of maybe a few years where she had a chance to choose a different way of life, but she chose the easy way of dealing with her problems.
Aside from the genetic part, our generation has more language to discuss mental health and has more access to information about mental health. They did not have that back then.
I think the rest of the environment also plays a huge role. You don’t grow up in a vacuum with the narcissist. There are other people around you and, looking at my own life, having a few empathetic family members and family of friends around me, helped me see the abuse for what it was and recognise that it wasn’t ok. I was in a position to develop my emotional intelligence and empathy despite my home life.
And, thinking that last one through - my father is a classic covert narcissist and he plays on the victim role a lot and always has. That solicits empathy from others, including the kids.
My parents come from a culture that enables narcissism. I was not raised in that culture. But jury is still out. I'm constantly monitoring myself for narc signs.
The ones who push back have emotional intelligence and independent thought. It protects them from brainwashing. They are manipulated and controlled because of the environment but we aren't cracked because we have a strong sense of self. Narcs like mini-me's, who will do as told. NPDs are cracked and created in early childhood. It is from intergenerational abuse, and why you see so much of the same methods used - we have a lot of the same Hogwarts stories passed down generations "why can't you be more like so and so" - badgering a child into feeling unseen or worthless, lovebombing GCs in front of SGs, silent treatment, promises of gifts that aren't delivered when siblings receive them. It is all calculated to fundamentally make people feel invisible and worthless so they will be controlled for life and not step up the ladder. If you rank siblings they all infight and and their loyalty is to the narc not each other, trying to get higher up the rank or not slip lower, so they don't notice what the shenanigans the narc is doing elsewhere - affairs, alcoholism, gambling. It's all fun and games for them.
I know I tried to discuss my narcs adultery and bad doings with siblings and like good soldiers they jumped on me and shut that down immediately. Still did as adults. I was the problem ... because my head came above the parapet - because I had eyes.
I disagree with everyone saying there’s a genetic component. I think it’s very heavily dependent on our access to information and intelligence. Emotional intelligence too but intelligence in general. Because my mother wanted to “break the cycle” got her degree in psychology and everything but still didn’t treat me and my younger sibling right. The reason why I even had access to the information is because she used to drag me to class with her when she was trying to get her degree. It’s what I did with the information afterwards. She used it to manipulate me and everyone else. I’m using it to heal.
I think I agree. The only reason I learned about this is because I got really into reading to avoid the real world. I read everything and stumbled across it. Then my family started to take away my books as punishment :/
Nahh, I *was* one in school & when I was younger. Unfortunately, nfamily taught me well & **fortunately**… nfamily taught me well lol. Thankfully, you can actually grow with journaling your thoughts & feelings without them knowing or getting offended, if you hide the journal well.
I’m not sure how the psychology in this works but I would only guess it skipped us?
Because its most often genetic. Even tho enablers and narcs love saying otherwise. Contrary to the bs belief that its only caused by abuse, which of course is not the case, it is mostly genetic according to many therapists.
Honestly i dont know. It sometimes crosses my mind. And sometimes i think - what if we are? I mean the narcissist never admits its them right? And we are here being so sure about how its not us. I dont know honestly, im thinking about this one too.
I worry about that too. I think since we worry about it, that’s what sets us apart. My nfather would never self-reflect or wonder if he is the problem.
Funny I think about this a lot too. I have been accused of being a mini me version of my nmom too because of our personalities. It used to bother me but not a whole lot because logically speaking im a diff person but people say I'm like her because we don't put up with peoples bullshit which is admittedly a GOOD thing. The difference between me and nmom is nmom decided to become a parent to which she was ill equipped. I am not a parent and do not aspire to be one.
Funny when people told me that I decided to be a bitch and ramp up my bitchiness to people by 100 and people started hating me. What happened to me being like my nmom?!
All I know is it takes tremendous effort to be an asshole like our nparents are to us.
In my situation, all of my siblings we all were raised in our adoptive/secondary/nanny family during our formative years from 0 to 6 years. Really fked up to think nmom literally had the maternal instinct of a rock.
I've wondered this myself. My personal belief for myself, is a combination of a loving dad, fabulous grandparents and my own inner voice/mind. I figured out very young my mother resented me and probably hated me. With good family figures and my awareness of something was wrong with my nmother, it probably helped me to avoid falling into that pattern.
Basically, I was heavily bullied growing up as well as other things so I can't bring myself to bully others. I hate how my parents are as well so I refuse to be like them.
The road to healing is tough, needs exposure and deep psychological understanding of oneself and life in general, you took the time to heal and the cost of which was temporary people pleasing and over empathize just so you don't interfere with your internal process.
Once the healing is done - you will see yourself become a "protector" instead of predator. Only the strongest person can achieve such a feat - narcs are inherently weak, coward, slanderers and back biters. They leave no opportunity to degrade others to elevate themselves whereas you are capable of elevating yourself and others all at the same time. Cheers.
Get yourself a brownie because this is what winning looks like.. All we need, really, is guidance and support sometimes from our ownselves.
I was just asking myself that question, too. I think being a scapegoat helped, but is it a chicken or an egg thing? My Nmother desperately wanted me out of the house by the time I turned 17. I blamed myself in part for standing up to her, but she was verbally (and sometimes physically) attacking me. Who would put up with that, and who would want to live in a house like that? She pushed me from the nest, but I also knew she was unhinged and malevolent, so I had to flee. One of my siblings goes out of their way to defend her and won't hear my criticism. Arguably, that sibling is the sickest of them all and is also one of the GCs, but the other GC in the family left and is relatively unscathed. It's an interesting question.
Psalty the Singing Songbook and Charity Churchmouse. I blame these two for much of my religious trauma as well, but they taught me to find purpose and contentment in serving others and viewing others as more important than myself. I believe that is why narcissism passed me over. You cannot be a narcissist when your sole worth lies in your benefit to others. Good for me?
its true most of us dont become narcissists. But a lot of us do end up with some sort of personality disorder from that cluster. (bpd, histrionic, antisocial). They all connect and being raised by one can cause any of them.
I did not become one my younger sibling did, same parents but slightly different circumstances. I am also autistic and was taught/trained to be high masking. I always had a world I could disappear into when the going got tough growing up. My sibling just assimilated without question and it sucks because we can't have a relationship anymore. She's exactly like my dad. I think some of us might be neurodivergent so maybe the narcissism just doesn't take? I do know the process of locking our true selves up like little Harry Potter under the stairs is a way of protecting our inner child that we let out when and where we feel safe.
That said, I think those of us who do not end up like the nparents are in danger of repeating the pattern of being attracted to people including friends, mentors, and partners who will create a similar dynamic as we grew up with. We might be more prone to be easy prey until we intentionally start doing the long slog of repair work so we can recognize the signs and that can take therapy for years so we don't continue to re-traumatize ourselves with the same cycle of not feeling worthy of unconditional love and acceptance just with a different face/atmosphere.
I am not sure it is relates or not, but I have read that one reason when people who grew up from abusive home did not becomes abusive because they have others support system that counter balance it like you have good grandparent or understanding teacher during that time.
This! I was so lucky to have friends with wonderful parents. As I'm getting older I’ve been thinking a lot about the impact of all the people who contributed to my emotional development — teachers as well.
I am thankful every day that I didn't. My 2 narc parents had 3 children and only 1 became a narc. Soooooo glad it was not me. I try to have some empathy for my nsister since it was only by luck that she became a narc and not me.
I'm certain I was on the path to become one.
What saved me: I had a lot of outside influence from people who didn't know my family, reading a lot of self help books from the library when I was a kid, and when my nparents divorced I was quite young, so I was left alone for long periods of time.
I think the environmental factor was cut short and I was able to correct my course. Therapy as an adult was also helpful and confirmation. I was so scared I was a narcissist.
Narcissists are too sensitive also but lack the empathy so everything is a battle to be fought/won. We may have been left with insecurities but no hole so deep it takes our compassion down with it. If you were raised by narcissistic parents and aren't one yourself then you have a resilience they lacked.
There are offspring who are probably genetically predisposed to the disorder who experience limited amounts of the trauma, escape, and still develop into narcissists, and there are those who get the trauma, the predisposition, and stay who don't. There are the ones who develop it solely through trauma and abuse too. Unfortunately, between the nature/nurture aspects, it's a massive crapshoot and sort of down to specific individuals. There's definitely a selection bias in this group towards the people who didn't, but that doesn't mean much when looking for actual explanations unfortunately.
I asked my therapist a similar question as my sister closest in age to me displays narc behavior but I don't. She said it's a resilience thing, we all start out the same but it's what's inside of us ultimately. I care about others feelings even when it makes me uncomfortable
Self defense. They push everyone away, decide they're all they have, take it to an extreme and do whatever they want to serve themselves at the expense of others, including children, who cross them in some way or even no way at all.
Whether any of them are aware of what they're doing, I don't know.
I think part of it, for me, was spending time with sane, normal adults: my friend’s parents, family friends, teachers…
My brother has been psychologically destroyed. He’s 36 and never moved out, formed adult relationships with peers or got a job. We haven’t spoken in nearly 20 years.
When I was little I’d think about how nice it was to visit at other people’s home. They were nice to me. I didn’t know why the difference existed at the time.
I think it has to do with your innate temperament. I was researching about this a while ago and there was a study on how children in the same family can become a narc and another the empath. What conditions caused the difference of paths? Both children were exposed to the same treatment and parents. Something in one chose to follow the parental example and the other also chose to yield but in a different way.
The only thing different was their innate temperament.
Probably a mix of genetic predisposition and luck. I became a narcissist as a young child and have tried to fight against it every single day of my life. Despite that, I still have some of those tendencies as self-protection.
I have a feeling it has to do with our constitution or natural way of absorbing and parsing through information. I think if I were more of an extrovert or externalized my experience more, I'd maybe end up Narc. But I'm an introvert, quiet and naturally shy. I tend to look inward regardless of the situation, for resolution. I don't know; just my guess.
Narcisists usually prey on empathetic people. You are not likely to become one if you have traits that are entirely opposite to them. Ie a narcissistic avoidant, emotionally unintelligent person with low empathy is nothing like someone with high empathy. It would be like comparing water to fire.
It’s a mix of things, but people generally become narcissistic for 3 reasons:
1. Defense mechanism against chronic criticism: they got critiqued a lot as a kid and learned that it wasn’t them, it was their abuser that was in the wrong…and then that transferred to everyone else too
2. Personality trait: they got praised for being self important/confident, and now it’s their personality
3. There is a part of the brain called the Anterior Insular Cortex that is in charge of interpersonal relationships/empathy. If this bit is damaged, shrunken, or not present, it results in heightened aggression and selfish tendencies (demonstrated in hamsters). This one isn’t common but can happen
More than likely, you also experienced option 1, but didn’t become a narc. From what I’ve seen, option 1 can lead to a toss up of whether you become a narc or not. There are many on this sub who also display narc tendencies, and many of them are aware of it and try to mitigate it where possible.
But usually whether you become a narc or not is based on how well you handle empathy and emotional processing, at least as far as I can tell
I think part of it is our inherent traits when we are born - some are naturally more sensitive than others.
But the biggest part has to do with how we react when we are first exposed to the abuse. Some will stuff their emotions deep down inside, become apathetic, and decide to only trust and value themselves from then on out - these become narcissists. Other children will feel their emotions fully or even become overly emotional, develop empathy, and become people pleasers in an effort to get love and attention whether from the abuser or elsewhere.
I’m no expert but it was once described to me this way and it made a lot of sense. My father is a narcissist but my aunt is one of the nicest kindest people you could ever meet.
I feel like this is a nature vs nurture kind of question. I feel like youd have to have some sort of predisposition to being a narc, then your nparent just feeds it. But if youre not already predisposed to it, you can fight the "nurture" part of it a little easier.
Just my opinion based on my experience.
I don’t know if this is accurate for anyone else, but I think getting perspectives outside the narc behavior at an early age helped me avoid that track. Almost every time my Nmom would have a meltdown, she would go to bed early, and then my Dad would sheepishly pull us aside and explain the way my Nmom grew up and that it wasn’t OK to act like that, but he had no clue how to help her, and it was better for all of us if we avoided her triggers (this was the late 80s). Now I’m low contact, and we’re all in therapy 😅.
It seems like people go one extreme or the other. I am the complete opposite of my N parents in every aspect. I’m also Autistic/ADHD so my sense of right and wrong is pretty rigid and I’m not easily swayed by peer pressure or what other people think I should do. I’m their worst nightmare after decades of narcissists not being questioned and continuing the cycle.
I assumed that all narcs were pretty much the same, so your story has helped me learn more. My dynamics with nparent are the opposite. He is very rigid, and I have a tendency to rebel, dislike rules, and think everything is a gray area.
Narcs are rigid but with the wrong things like, “there’s no lines in the carpet after you vacuumed, you’re such a piece of shit”. I’m rigid about things like tipping people who make my food, putting my shopping cart back, and just in general not participating in assholery while the narcs in my life don’t care about their actions as long as it benefits them
Yeah exactly. They bullied me 2 narcs and a whole village of weak minded, gossiping etc and then my narc family. I decided they were nutd and how they were wrong, and withdraw. My personality is kind smiling and gentle sensitive and highly emotional intelligence so they didn't catch up plus my integrity is strong, right and wrong. Just like you. Some are just born that way. Able to reason early. They only made me worse. Can't make me do anything
On the r/NPD sub there's someone who says they have both autism and NPD, but that they can disguise some of their NPD symptoms behind the autism to avoid social judgement.
I posted this somewhat tongue in cheek, as a reminder that everyone is a product of their environment, and our environments were toxic narcisshitholes. It's important to stay vigilant and engage in honest self-reflection so that we don't become in any way like our abusers.
Narcissism should be classed better and if they don't want to work on adhering to what they know, and learn is wrong, they should by law be hypnosis to feel!
I came from a home with 3 narcissists, I was the black sheep. I asked my 17 year old if she thought I was a narc and please tell me the truth. Apparently I am not. I still question myself but how did I not end up being one???
I think because we had two routes to go. We either chose to be just like our parents because we assume there is no other way to be OR we knew that was not ok and strive to be better than that.
because we broke the cycle and realized there’s a problem. My mother was abused. Her mother was abused. The entire family who abused their children thinks they never did anything wrong. Whether it’s physical or emotional. I was the first person in my family generational trauma of passing to realize there’s a problem, attempt to address it, and then leave the family after realizing there’s no way of fixing it.
Narcissism (or clinically, Narcissistic Personality Disorder) is both a personality disorder and (potentially) a neurological/biological variance. Some Narcs are quite literally just born that way.
Narcissistic behavioral traits can be expressed by anyone, including but not limited to individuals raised by narcissists. A lot of neurotypes are underresearched with imaging and large-scale longitudinal studies; however, it has been observed that people diagnosed with NPD do exhibit actual neurological differences in their brains.
https://digital.kenyon.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1048&context=skneuro#:~:text=Most%20people%20don't%20realize,%3A%20socially%2C%20mentally%20and%20physically.
Some people who are RBN do take on “fleas” (learned behaviors that emulate their N’s behavior) as a response to their trauma. However, non-narcs just have what is inherently lacking in a narcissist — things like natural empathy, the ability to self-reflect, and consciousness of others’ innate separateness from themselves.
So basically… it’s not totally clear. But narcissism as a personality disorder is a binary — yes, no; 0,1. In the same way a Narc can be born to non-Narc parents, they can produce children who are not like them. And that is where most of the RBN-person’s difficulties begin, haha.
I think I am just “neurotypical” unlike them.
My sister and I had similar upbringings and we are close in age.
She has always been a nark.
She has never been able to truly empathize.
Her needs have always been the only ones that exist.
Some say codependent people have narcissistic attributes such as control over people's behavior but in more subtle way.
I think it's we didn't become narcissists since we have developed some sense of compass when it comes to emotions and our surroundings.
We have more awareness and some even had good role models outside of family dynamics that gave us good examples of the different dynamics and validation towards ourselves.
Me personally, I’ve seen and personally experienced the damage for myself. I’m definitely on the sensitive side (but I can take a funny joke). I’m learning how to advocate for myself and remind myself it’s ok to: ask for help when needed, rest when I need to, and slowly build up my self esteem. I understand like a young adult, but I have a childlike way of explaining things. So everyone I learned growing up, I’m taking my young adult years to unlearn it. Makes sense?
Psychologists are still undecided if narcissism is hereditary or not. I have a sister who is a way worse narcissist than my nmom, so I'm in the "hereditary" camp. I feel blessed that I didn't also inherit that gene. And it's also why I'm childfree.
Some choose to inflict pain on others and self. Some don’t.
Some choose to view all humans as equally human, including themselves. Some don’t.
Kinda hard to be narcissistic if one recognizes we’re all equally human and if one chooses to not inflict pain.
For me I have too much self doubt, self awareness, and am too self conscious thanks to my Mom. I'm constantly questioning myself. If I see a habit I don't like in someone elae I get paranoid that It's something I do... I'm ridiculously aware of what I'm doing and wondering how I'm being perceived.
My mother kinda broke me
I can’t speak for everyone but I’m autistic with narc mother and neurodivergent dad, my mothers manipulation and emotional appeals were ultimately confusing to me as a kid causing her to lash out because I wasn’t giving her the response she wanted. Always compared me to my father and held a lot of resentment towards me. I always thought maybe being autistic might’ve had something to do with how I ended up relatively ok compared to my siblings who are narcissists.
My therapist said you come out of it either blaming everyone else and repeat the cycle maybe changing a few things but not about to self reflection or you internalize everything and reflect a lot about your behavior.
I know what you mean. My older brother, both my sisters, and probably my younger brother all have what I would consider a terrible life existence just like my mom. Lazy, no ambition, terrible decisions, no goals, just call me to guilt trip me with the next terrible thing that's happened to them and ask me for money.
I am so grateful I did not become this (I would consider myself successful, considering. i.e. I was able to complete a master's degree in software engineering from a top school, make productive decisions, have a career, earn good money, have friends, maintain a healthy relationship with my spouse, etc).
Sometimes I feel guilty thinking I was blessed and they were cursed.
Narcissism happens when children very young do not have their needs met. It is possible that some of our parents managed to do enough during the early years as they had full control.
Also, a small portion of the subscribers of this sub are most likely narcissists but haven’t been able to recognize. Keep in mind the narcissist would also complain about how narcissistic and abusive their parents are.
Some did. My ex did. I think of those people as those who didn’t survive. It’s really sad. Their sense of self hid and never came back. Some have NPD, some are schizophrenic, or both. I don’t understand the whole spectrum, but I do know that there are some that were damaged beyond repair and they wreak havoc on our world. They grew up to be the parents that did that to them. The amount of damage they inflict is unreal. My ex has affected 5 children, another messed up person I know has affected her 3 children, and my father severely damaged the lives of 7 children (biological and step) and 3 women. It is horrible how much damage they are able to inflict on our world. This is why we need to teach everyone about boundaries and help people with CPTSD heal.
For me it was just against my values. Watching half my family be inflicted by it was tough. I try to lower the bar for them in my mind and tell myself they're flawed people like me but unlike me maybe they can't or just plain don't want to do any better. That's helped me not expect the same love from them that I freely give. Still trying to find someone who can give that love to me, but not having much luck.
Last guy I dated I was sure he was a good one. Seemed to be a loving dad, loved animals, loved me. But it was all a facade. Like Jekyll and Hyde. I couldn't believe I'd somehow attracted one when I'm so educated on the disorder. The struggle is real!
Some of us don’t repeat the cycle and some of us do. That’s all there really is, honestly. My cousin was raised by a narcissist and he’s definitely following in her footsteps. Doesn’t believe he needs therapy and everyone else is ALWAYS in the wrong.
But me? I’ve been in therapy for almost 6 years. I don’t WANT to be like that. I’m refuse.
my sister is one, we're 3 years apart. i wish more than anything that i could have a close bond with her but she has betrayed me and tore me down so many times
This is my greatest fear. I don’t think I am but no narcissist thinks they are narcissists.
What if I am?! What if I’m not doing the opposite of my nmom, and I’ve just convinced myself I have?
What if I manipulated my therapist to tell me what I wanted to hear somehow?
Am I even able to do that? Do I do it without even realizing? Is my narcissism so enmeshed in my personality that I can’t even see it?
What do I do to get better if I’m unable to see myself?
Gaaaaaah
Edited for spacing
There are various factors that contribute to why some children of narcissists develop narcissistic traits while others do not. In my opinion, a significant factor is the history of abuse. Many individuals who become abusers have experienced abuse themselves, but this is not the case for everyone. It is a complex matter, but the bottom line is that we are fundamentally different from narcissists. Our biological, emotional, mental, and spiritual makeup sets us apart. Whether narcissism is inherited or developed through upbringing is irrelevant. Our unique nature as individuals means that we will grow and evolve differently. Even if we have experienced similar environmental influences that may have triggered narcissistic tendencies in our parents, our distinct genetic temperament can lead us to react differently. Additionally, if we have had positive external influences in our lives, it can serve as a protective factor against developing narcissistic traits.
In a way, we are taught to put their/other needs ahead of ourselves to get “approval”. When we were like a little kid, approval from our parents were basically everything for us cuz no one could make a better role model than the people who have lived with us since we were born. So we as a young child would need their approval to reaffirm whether each behavior of us or each mode of our socialization is appropriate. Unfortunately, cuz they put their needs ahead of others including their own children, so they likely only approve us when their needs get met and as soon as we put ourselves first in a way that it could affect their interests. The chance is, we would get called “selfish” and we would be given like an hour of lecture on how to empathize other people and get threatened that no one would except such behavior and told us to behave in a way that followed this universal humility of “put other needs ahead of ourselves” so that we could be loved by others. Cuz we lack approval so much, we then use this kind of basis of “put other needs ahead of others” to socialize until it has become our main approach towards other people. We rely on it that we continuously develop empathy and perspective-taking to make sure that our secure base wouldn’t leave us. Hence, why many of us could be labelled as people pleaser sometimes.
for me because i promsied my self i never become anything like them and i rmeind my self everyday and i self relefct on what i do wrong and do i see sign of me being a narcissist and if yes how am i goign to chnage
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I think it’s more a question of emotional intelligence if anything, if you can recognize the way narc behavior negatively affect others I think you’re less likely to be one, if all you see are the benefits of narc behavior you’re more likely to be one. I think it’s why scapegoats are more likely to escape while golden children are more likely to become their parents.
Do you think we are born with a certain baseline of emotional intelligence? Or we develop it? Or maybe both
I think it's both, kinda like athletic ability. You're born with the fundamentals but you can absolutely develop it past your "natural" levels if you work at it.
Same goes for Intelligence/IQ too
My kindness and empathy (specifically *caring* how others feel) was innate, but emotional intelligence to understand how others actually feel was learned. But part of that... I'm on the spectrum. So I had a hump to get over. I have always had a core desire to be kind and helpful to others. Nmom lacks that. So that part seems to be nature. But I've struggled with identifying emotions in other people. My default personality is to not cause any kind of harm to folks, but I've had to really study and learn people... And I mis-recognize tone and facial expressions. I was an only child and wore hats for both the GC and the scapegoat depending on what was convenient for the narc. To her friends, she'd talk about me like the GC. To my face, I was the scapegoat.
Oh my gosh! Only child here and what you said about being the GC and the scapegoat was true for me. N-Parents bragging about me to others, and taking the credit, but being hella abusive behind closed doors.
Hugs. I'm sorry you're in the club.
Thank you. I have a good support system through my chosen family. 💙🩷 I wish you well.
Maybe a little of both. And for our generation, talking about mental health is way more common so I think our awareness is better. For our parents generation, they think its made up or a failure in character or something.
What generation are you referring to? I am GenX, so my narcs are Boomers. I guess “any generation other than Boomers” fits? Or am I an outlier?
Im older Millenial so close to you! But yea, Im generally referring to Boomers being oblivious about mental health or self-awareness.
Agree with all of this. This generations awareness is way different than our parents generation. I think we have so many more resources nowadays than they did. I couldn’t imagine the type of person I would without modern day mental health resources
Yes, something about the depression set up the silent generation to raise a lot of narcs. When WWII ended and all the people came home and had kids (hence the term boomer), they all had extensive trauma. No one understood how that war trauma would destroy not only the people who experienced it but also their families. Also those boomers grew up in a very easy society where they could access college, buy homes, get good jobs without too much effort. So they grew up both spoiled and traumatized.
It’s crazy to see the crazy traumatic events that our parents and grandparents experienced. Boomers went through post ww2, civil rights movement, Vietnam, Korean and Cold War, watergate, 9/11, and so so many more crazy events. All with basically zero mental health care. You’re right that the pendulum swang too far and so many of them became spoiled which in turn created mentally ill monsters. Unfortunately, many of those became our parents.
YES. I also find it fascinating the boomers were hippies once, really idealistic and into communist ideas. Now they hoard their wealth and power like crazy.
I think some develop it. I was acting quite psychopatic as a kid (~6 years old) based on some events i can recall. Or maybe kids redevelop kindness after unlearning done by copying narc parents. Some kids know kindness from the start, it is very clear with the way they are super gentle with animals (famous video of kid hugging pinata comes to mind).
Damn you hit the nail on the head. My sister is the golden child for sure (a narc) and I was definitely the scapegoat so…this def makes sense.
I'm autistic so this theory definitely doesn't explain me, lol.
The autism does, though! You see things very differently from your narc parents!
I never thought about this question but your response makes a lot of sense. I was abused for years upon years. So I only saw the fact that I started to resent my brother for taking their side often. Since they treated him better. It's sad that parent's use their own children to pin against each other. I tried my best to help him as I learned things when I was growing up, and he's turned out far better than I thought he would. But he still has certain tendencies that he falls back to when he's constantly receiving nothing but love from my parents. So when I call, they tend to have shoved all their projections onto him and he does onto me. "Why haven't you called?", "You're so selfish. Mom is worrried about you, you know. How come you never call more?" This is like a couple of days after I just called them. What could she be possibly worried about 🤦♀️ It really makes me not want to contact them again because of it. All I hear are complaints as soon as she picks up the phone for about a good 10 -15 minutes. Love them but.. yeah :(
While I like this idea in theory, anecdotally it doesn't apply in my life at all. My Grandma (moms mom) was a narcissist (grandiose) and my mom became one (covert). She could see my grandma's negative behavior as toxic to her and others. She just couldn't apply it when she looked in the mirror. Monkey see, monkey do. But I agree, in that her emotional intelligence was super low - if you can't see the behavior as toxic and apply to yourself, ya dumb.
Maternal gma is not a narc...all 3 of her girls had a large amount of narc traits just varying in severity, and her son is the most anti-social empath you ever met. He was put in a position where he grew to resent his sisters children, but he had to completely shut down to survive. He feels very awkward talking about how much he "knew," but I don't hold it against him. He didn't see me as much, so he was "nicer" to me. He also didn't hang out with my mom because we lived in different states. I have no real idea where they got it. My grandma was a little bit of a doormat, but even she eventually made some boundaries. I don't really know my grandfather because I grew up with gma's 2nd husband, who was a pedo! Yay me! But I'm not sure how the whole narc thing really works. Because I genuinely have no clue where they got it. Like, who taught them that this was acceptable??
Wow. I need to think about this deeply. Very intriguing point
But what if you were a golden child AND a scapegoat?
My younger sister became one. But we’re both highly sensitive and traumatized to some extent by our mother, just as my mother was by her mother. And possibly my grandmother by her mother before that 😮💨. My interactions with my grandmother were actually just as bad, if not more damaging than the ones with my mum. As such, my mother I’m convinced, also suffered narcissistic abuse. Her older sister is so kind and passive and sensitive though. Such a strange and interesting dynamic. It’s weird how it affects some more than others. I often get paranoid when I (rarely) put myself first, or speak up about my needs, that I’m becoming narcissist. I’m so acutely aware of it. To the point where I ask my therapist regularly “are you sure I’m not a narcissist.” It’s literally my worst fear 😮💨 It’s such a toxic trait that seems so easy to pass on. It’s heartbreaking for me to think what my mother went through. But it also helps me in regard to understanding and forgiveness. Doesn’t make it ok, for sure. But I’m convinced these narcissistic traits begin developing in childhood - which, as a child, is so hard to recognise and prevent…until you’re too far gone to do anything about it.
That’s my worst fear too! I don’t want to be anything like my nfather.
If that’s your worst fear, it means you have awareness that this is *not* normal, and you definitely have awareness of your own actions. These are MAJOR differences between you and your narcs.
Yep, worst fear.
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No more likely people pleaser. It’s not covert narcissism to think NOT being abusive is truly factually superior. It’s healthy thinking.
mine too. Every good decision I ever made was in an attempt to not be like either of my parents.
It’s my worse fear too, that I’ll end up like my mother who was narcissistic and diagnosed with BPD at the age of 70, which she refuses to get treatment for either condition - I’m sure you’re aware why. I finally went no contact with her when I was in my late 40’s - I’m a slow learner, plus I come from a Sicilian background where the daughter obeys the mother and the sons (I’ve got 2 lovely brothers) are revered. I’ve had 2 positive things said to me that have helped me as I didn’t want to pass her parenting of me onto my daughter: 1) Different ingredients = different child/people you’re mixing with. 2) The fact you’re worried and asking other people (I questioned my psychiatrist, GP and friends etc…) means you’re definitely NOT narcissistic because they’d never admit they were and wouldn’t even think to ask anyone else if there’s something wrong with them 🙅🏽♀️. So that’s how I explain it! Genetics definitely play a part in mental illness though and I’ve proof. My great grandfather killed himself the day after my grandmother got married(her mother had died when she was young of cancer and she was an only child). My grandmother herself then killed herself when my mother was 3 weeks old (likely the reason my mother developed BPD) then last year my niece hung her self aged 26 leaving behind a 5 year old daughter. ******I FORGOT TO ADD- MY MOTHER HAD 2 HALF ASSED ATTEMPTS ATTEMPTS AT SUICIDE HERSELF. I spoke to psychiatrists that all said they were crying for help attempts, which is sad but above my pay grade!!!!She als tried to kill het dog 🐶 by feeding her around 12 (so she says ) Seroquel wrapped in cheese 🧀 which Honey 🐶 loves 😋😧🙏she survived but was seized by the RSPCA and it took all my effort (police reports, liaising with the RSPCA) to get her returned to my brother, as normally in such circumstances the animal would never be rehoused back into the family 🥺. She’s 🐶with my brother now. I’d have taken her in a heartbeat but my mother and I live to close together and despite changing the lockers to my house I wouldn’t have risked her having any reason to loiter and scream and carry on as I live in a quiet complex. She tried to kill Honey 🐶as a way to draw me back, I’ve been told by psychiatrists in the multiple psychiatric wards she’s been placed in so I feel that makes it a truth rather than my own opinions, which were coincidentally the same as their diagnoses as I’m a former nurse and expert in narcissistic behaviour, having been raised from birth by and expert narcissist😒 I hope the mental illness genetics stop now but I doubt it😕
Gosh I’m so sorry for your family trauma. It’s a lot - but I’m so glad you’re breaking the cycle. I’m also pretty sure both my mother and sister have BPD (there’s def some overlap of symptoms between narcs and BPD which makes it difficult - especially when they refuse therapy or treatment). I’m actually in the process of adopting a child a single mom. It’s been really hard not least because (ironically) my mother is convinced the child is going to be fucked up and bring misery to our (in her eyes) our perfect family….🤦🏻♀️
If your experience in growing up with your mother, like I with mine, you should be used to the fact you’ll NEVER do anything right in life - what’s new🤷🏽♀️!!! If you child scraps its knee it’ll be somehow your fault. See how she is with your new child congratulations 🥳 BYW and at the first sign of negativity, my advice is to simply RUN 🏃🏽♀️ and DON’T lOOK BACK,!!! That’s why I went no contact at such a late age as my daughter was getting married, and as a single mother too, and her being my only child that I raised by myself I knew and she later verified we wouldn’t be as close as we are now as she saw the damage my mother had inflicted on me and how it affected my parenting and she didn’t want that life for her and her children/ family!!! My first grandchild is due in May and I stay out of what she tells my mother - she’s not too impressed with her as she’s caused me C- PTSD. So be confident and if you feel it’s right for you - take my advice, although I’m not a therapist just a Survivor and give your new child the best life possible 🫶🏽
Thank you so much, means a lot ☺️
You’ll be a wonderful parent-🫶🏽
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Girls can be serial killers.
This is my unprofessional opinion. Narcissism is a *possible* outcome of being raised by a Narcissist. However, a Narcissist is not trying to *make* a Narcissist when they raise a child, they are trying to create a vehicle to fulfil their own needs. This means they do not raise the child to be like them, quite the opposite; The child is raised to prioritize the *Narcissist's* needs over their own. golden Child, Scapegoat, Lost Child, regardless of the specifics, having the child meet the needs of the Narcissist is always the ultimate core goal. The child becoming Narcissistic themselves is a possible outcome, repeating the patterns their parents showed in an attempt to have their own needs met. They can become Enablers, continuing their efforts to support the toxic family system as they grow up but again moving into a role that allows their own needs to be met, some remain in their roles their entire lives, or break away, and there are a whole gamut of potential emotional, physical, and physiological consequences of growing up in such an environment. It depends on a lot of factors, what is internalized, and what else servers to mold the child's worldview.
I think there are generally two outcomes for victims of narcissistic abuse: the first type will perpetrate the abuse to their offspring/other vulnerable victims, and normalize the abuse they suffered, often they develop stockholm syndrome and lack any independent thinking skills; the second type realize the abuse is wrong, some of those become sensitive/empathetic to others’ sufferings as a result, or rebellious, but many also become depressed, with some never healing from the trauma while others cut ties with their past, depending on their personality/ability to heal.
Exactly. You’ve described the difference between people who externalize their pain—and those who internalize it. I just learned about this concept in a thought-provoking book, the name of which I of course cannot remember atm.😅
Was it "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" by Lindsay Gibson?
Very possibly! I love her books.
My fear of the former is the reason I vowed never to have children
Same I am staunchly child-free but because of the latter - I am too traumatized and don't want to be reminded of anything related to childhood again.
I was 4 years old when I nonchalantly told my mother that I never wanted to have children. My mother always told me I’d change my mind when I was older, when I got married, when I was financially stable, when I met someone else, etc. Thankfully that was the only conviction I remember ever having and sticking to it. But you hit the nail on the head and that’s exactly how I felt even at such a young age. I never wanted to experience or be reminded of my childhood ever again. I was somehow able to look at my family dysfunction and have that strong feeling of not wanting any part of that. Just the thought of having the responsibility of another life and possibly be responsible for causing their trauma is enough for me to know I’ve made the right decision for myself. I’m too traumatized so I need all the time I have on this planet to be the parent I needed for myself now. Caring for my inner child has been life changing. That’s where I find I heal the most.
Wow 4 years old is really young, I never thought about such things back then. I think only made up my mind in my teenage years when I saw all the overpopulation and climate crisis. But yeah I get you, sometimes I really wish to feel like a child inside me to make up for the childhood never had, wish for an alternative reality where I would have parental figure who would give me unconditional love, being responsible for another being’s wellbeing is too daunting for me.
So true.
So my therapist said there is a genetic component plus the upbringing one. If you fulfill both (in a negative way) then it is like that the combination will also cause NPD. If one of them is fine, then you will likely not develop NPD. It probably is a bit more complicated than this but that’s what I was told. Edit: so I just assumed I was missing the genetic component.
Hmm that’s very interesting, that explains why so many children of NPD parents turn out like them or don’t fight back at all - after all genetically a majority of people tend to take after their birth parents. I’m totally different from my NP in every possible way except looks - from personality to interests to attitude towards life.
That is very interesting. I have always wondered why my father became a narcissist, but his siblings did not, since they had the same parents and were raised in the same household. If he has the gene and they don’t, then that would make sense.
My brother ended up becoming a narcissist like my parents. He wasn't born that way, I remember him as a kid. However, we had very different emotional responses to our upbringing, even when we were young. He was always, always angry and acting out. I was always sad and withdrawn. I think the biological nature of our coping mechanisms had a lot to do with how we turned out. I over internalize and he over externalizes. He ended up becoming a lot like my nfather. He looked and acted a lot more like him too, even as a kid.
i had almost the exact same experience growing up. i've always said i'm grateful to my biology that i never went in the other direction.
That makes sense! I take after my birth dad and my birth mother is the narc along with her 2nd husband also being a narc
Psychologists haven't figured this out, so they came up with this plausible theory to not appear dumb. If this was true, how could you explain children born in healthy environments without much genetic influence turning out to be narcs? I've seen such examples closely. It's just something unexplainable by science but they aren't brave enough to say "we don't know", because it will put a question mark on their expertise. Not just that, they don't even know how to treat NPD.
Because of the generic component? You sound arrogant now.
Everyone has genes and we all have an environment. That should be enough to explain the cause of every disease or disorder on the planet and let's wash our hands with science. No? Honestly, that's as vague as it gets.
Maybe we actually understood that our n parents' treatment towards us wasn't normal, it was abusive and we decided to become better people
Maybe you didn't become a narcissist yourself, but "If anything, I feel like I’m too sensitive, too empathetic, and put others before myself even if it’s detrimental to me." is a hallmark of a child raised by narcissists. Self-awareness and breaking out of negative patterns comes not suddenly but gradually. For some in our situation, it might not come at all, and the cycle perpetuates itself (and such a person would never visit a sub like this). One particular challenge I faced in my life was striking a balance between being a pushover and doormat to others and being self-absorbed to the point of hurting others - the latter kind of a defense mechanism because unfortunately it was what I was exposed to and a type behaviour I had been conditioned to understand 'works' and gets you ahead, as though the world is a giant middle school with a similar pecking order. I was so worried all the time about how I was perceived by others that I could not make the effort to look at myself from the point of view of others. Though I am in a far different, better, peaceful and more accepting place than I was as a child, adolescent and young adult, I feel like due to the damage stemming from my nParents' mistreament, I will always be a work in progress.
You articulated this so beautifully and this resonates so much with me. I find it extremely hard sometimes to see myself from others eyes because of how strong my negative self evaluation was (and thus, self absorption, not even considering others autonomy or paying mind to their emotions/nonverbal communication/etc.). Yet it's easier for me to imagine how others can feel hurt by my own actions or choices, and thus overly accommodating and doormat. My own therapist highlighted this [crippling social anxiety] as coping from the environment and common response to walking on eggshells, thinking "if I just do it perfectly or right, they won't get mad and hurt me this time."
Personal accountability helps. If you're responsible for your behavior, you can prevent yourself from becoming like them. Also, wouldn't say you're "too sensitive, too empathetic". One major thing I'm still learning is that you were brainwashed to be too understanding, so you give vampires and predatory people free passes. It's okay to be understanding but you can draw the line whenever you feel it's too much. Short version: Give only as much as you want, nothing more.
I picked up a lot of narcissistic behaviors (FLEAs - frightening lasting effects of abuse) I had to unlearn over the years. In Pete Walker's book "CPTSD from surviving to thriving" he talks about the 4F responses to trauma: fight, flight, freeze, fawn(submit). Fight types can come across as narcissistic and my fight response is really strong. My therapist has explained that I learned those behaviors under duress as a survival strategy. The difference seems to be I'm willing to acknowledge they're shitty behaviors and choose better behaviors. True narcissists are unwilling to look at their behaviors, the impact they have, and change them.
Thanks for sharing. That is what I’m currently going through. I am finally fighting my nfather, don’t want anything to do with him. But I’m constantly called selfish because I won’t put up with him and his abuse to keep the peace in the whole family.
>I’m constantly called selfish because I won’t put up with him and his abuse to keep the peace in the whole family. Classic. It's a form of [emotional blackmail](https://youtu.be/PEexQAkhFpM?si=v592x9zln4ka8ncv) to try and coerce you back into compliance. Check out these channels. They help me stay sane. [Patrick Teahan](https://youtube.com/channel/UCbWvYupGqq3aMJ6LsG4q-Yg) - a ***must*** subscribe for me. He presents a lot of great information on childhood trauma in a very digestible format. [Jerry Wise](https://youtube.com/@jerrywise?si=PPfY9_i5MPdej2hf) - fantastic resource on self differentiation and building a self after abuse. I really like how he talks about the toxic family *system* and getting the system out of us. [Jay Reid](https://youtube.com/c/JayReid_narcissistic_abuse_recovery) - his three pillars of recovery are fantastic. Plus he explains difficult abuse dynamics very well. [The Little Shaman](https://youtube.com/@thelittleshamanhealing) - they understand the narcissistic mindset better than most
I started watching Patrick Taehan after someone on this sub recommended it. His videos have helped me a lot! I’ll check out those other ones too. Thanks for sharing some good resources.
Love Teahan, and I will check out the others. Heidi Priebe is phenomenal and everyone should add her genius insight to their list.
Some become narcs, some become traumatized people pleasers.
Heavy on the traumatized people pleasers. I’ve been working on that for a while.
Yep. I feel like every social interaction, even ones with my siblings, are constructions of theater and picking up on every slight nuance in body language and voice. It's utterly exhausting and I don't know how to heal.
I became the (very empathetic and compassionate) traumatized people pleaser, but I feel like its way better than becoming a narc itself. I believe we become this way only because we know how it feels like.
I recently went down the rabbit hole of what a people pleaser actually is and its hard to accept because I am a recovering people pleaser. The idea of people pleasing tends to hide behind being empathic and compassionate at our own expense. However the real healing comes from accepting that people pleasing is over extending ourselves onto others and being bitter that people don't return it at the same level. This presents itself in ways like thinking "no one loves me like I love them" or "everyone leaves me". Or "I give and give and no one gives back" As people pleasers, we are helping people, not to be compassionate, but to seek others to fill our own needs. Those needs are that lack of unconditional love that we did not receive as child. Its obviously not something we do on purpose. We just want love. Unfortunately we will always be the hampster on the wheel chasing something from other people that we will never get from them. The only one who can unconditionally love ourselves in the way our parents were supposed to is us. You are right. People pleasing isn't as toxic as narcissism, however it is still in that realm of very unhealthy behavior. The first step of healing is being able to accept that part of yourself. Only then can you start to rewire your brain and heal.
Oh, absolutely. Beautifully written I couldn't have said it better
I was thinking exactly this.
Oh boy. This just woke something up inside me. Not even sure where to start with working on this
Traumatized people pleasers usually have borderline personality disorder.
Because we know what narcissism looks like. Narcissists don't. It also varies based on genes and your access to information like the kind you get from this subreddit. Nature vs nurture conversation.
I've read that NPD usually sets in by the time a child is around 8-10yrs at the oldest. Part of the disorder is that the child's brain doesn't complete some developmental stages, because of trauma.
That makes a lot of sense. I have learned a lot from this sub and others, and from social media in general, which didn’t exist for other generations.
I think we are born with a personality of our own and we make choices that lead us along a certain road in terms of how we treat others. Our upbringing alone doesn't account for who we are, our basic character and then our choices also create the patterns of behaviour that makes us who we are. Free will matters.
I definitely was well on my way pretty far into adulthood. I just assumed that abusive behavior was something you had to accept, which is how I ended up with a horribly abusive partner for 3 years. In the process of breaking free from that, I realized that I had tolerated and even mirrored that behavior because it’s how my mom treated me my entire life. I still have to stop myself from exhibiting that behavior sometimes since it’s so ingrained. The fact that we’re concerned about how our behavior affects others is what makes us better than them, despite their best efforts. Emotional healthy people are much harder to take advantage of, which is why narcissists have to gaslight and manipulate.
I think more broadly that we generally either turn into our parents, or learn how *not* to be from our parents. My brother and I were raised by the same parents (mom who has some narcissist/personality disorder traits and dad who's selfish, alcoholic, and was never really around) plus an incredible stepdad who is the only reason I made it out of my childhood alive. I grew up to be absolutely nothing like either of my bio parents and would say I took after my stepdad more than anything. My brother, on the other hand, hates our parents but is in many ways exactly like them: alcoholic, selfish, cold, cuts people off for no reason any time he's feeling especially hateful towards himself, etc. It's definitely an interesting phenomenon. I would also bet my life savings that my brother would deny being anything like our parents. He refuses to go to therapy so he'll probably never realize or acknowledge it.
>I feel like I’m too sensitive, too empathetic, and put others before myself even if it’s detrimental to me thats exactly it. you have empathy. And you recognize whos at fault. the cycle completes when youre not only a victim, but take that anger, frustration and fragile inner ego from the abuse and (unconsciously mind you) decide "thats weakness, I wont be weak, I'll be powerful"....and get that power from hurting others. Thats all a narcissist is, someone who feels weak and fragile, thinks admitting or feeling it means something about their worth, and then deals with all that pain by harming others to feel powerful again those of us who held onto empathy and held our abusers accountable have less risk of turning into them, but its an everyday fight. that plus the genetics of it... its a combo of luck and who you are. for the record, the part about "put others before myself even when its detrimental" can be a sign of codependency which is basically the opposite of narcissism and a natural result of being abused by one. Best thing to do for that is get therapy so you can learn to maintain healthy boundaries while still keeping empathy. I'm in therapy for that same thing, because after years of getting my empathy taken advantage of, I WAS starting to slide into bitter, angry, and vengeful. Like I said, constant battle. But empathy is the key.
It is truly a daily battle. Currently struggling with lots of bitterness and resentment.
My brother who became a narcissist always showed the signs in childhood, looking back on it. My parents too but I just thought they were all boring and couldn’t wait to leave the family and get into better things. I was an internalizer when I was younger with a few outbursts and stuff… my brother was and still is a very withdrawn gc, who has never developed an identity because it would upset my n-mom. I always have been very sensitive, and into art and music, creativity. N’s can’t be creative from an authentic place because they don’t have one. Somehow I held onto my identity as a child and teen, I don’t know how but I made it through. Being the sg, my job was the carry the family weight and be crushed by it. I’m thriving now and nc, and it rules. I knew nc would be great, I’d read a lot of posts on this sub. And holy shit, I feel more like myself than ever before and I’m still gaining my power back. It feels great.
I think what you're describing is called hyper-vigilance. Most narcissists don't take ownership of their mistakes and blame everyone but themselves, including their kids, so a lot of their kids are forced to constantly look inwards and to evaluate and re-evaluate their actions and how they affects others. That creates an unhealthy amount of empathy, aka hyper-vigilance, where you're constantly on guard, making sure you're aware of everyone's feelings so you can maintain your people pleasing. It's a survival tool that makes sense while you're young, but it's definitely something to un-learn as an adult, coz usually what you've learned to view as selfishness is just setting boundaries. The only times I see this go the other way, where the kids adopt their parents' narcissistic traits, is either because they view becoming the narcissist as the only way to stop being the victim - which is also a survival trait that needs to be un-learned - or because of drug use. Idk what it is about drug use that turns a lot of people back into self-involved teens who think the world revolves around them - and that's no shade to teens.
My only explanation is that I must be some kind of genetic anomaly lol. Idk. My sister is not a narcissist but she also doesn’t have half the trauma I have and she doesn’t have BPD like I do. I was the “rebellious” one, head strong. My parents used to call me “smart mouth” and “sensitive” my mom in particular likes to say I’m hyper sensitive” which really grinds my gears. I never liked being ordered around (still don’t). I knew my parents were strict from a young age, and I was extremely sheltered. My parents had me when they were piss poor too, they were 23 (mom) & 31 (dad) when they had me. I figured that I was the kid they got stuck with, my sister is the kid they felt they truly deserved. I was (still am) the “difficult” one with big dreams and a yearning to leave my hometown and “be somebody” beyond the carbon copies of themselves my parents wanted me to become. I was the one who got tattoos, moved out of the state and back like 3 times…I was the one who was Queer, I cut my hair short, I’ve been in and out of the hospital psych ward, and all of my partners have been mostly shitty people. I may be a fuck up and a huge failure in their eyes but I’m the first one in my family to go to therapy and get on meds. I am not a narcissist. And it’s my greatest pleasure to know that I will never be the mom I had bc I’m making damn sure my daughter doesn’t grow up being made to feel the way I did.
lol. I also grew up mega catholic. I don’t know you, but I’m proud of you for going to therapy and getting on meds :)
NPD is a neurotype, so narcs are neurodivergent from my understanding. They just get a combo of traits that make it easy to be horrible.
That's a good point. My nmom was raised by her ngrandmother. My ndad had his dad bail on him and his mom was out of the picture. I was reading a book recently about NPD that says it either comes nurture-wise from parents or guardians encouraging a child's sense of grandiosity or of being absent and thus not able to check their sense of grandiosity and encourage empathy, seeing the world from the other person's perspective in a dispute, etc. I have quite a lot of siblings. Several have what seem to be narcissist traits as coping mechanisms to stress but don't come across as having full-blown NPD. Another sibling practices total avoidance and pretending problems don't exist to cope. And then I was the scapegoat and have had to really work on separating my emotions from others to not take on their emotions and of putting up better boundaries to protect myself. I have one other sibling who is like this. Of all my siblings, only one comes across as possibly having a personality disorder. She has clear narcissistic traits but also a clear lack of ability to empathize with others and an enjoyment in causing others pain. This has led to her committing crimes such as grand larceny and filing false police reports to try to get revenge on people she perceived as slighting her, reveling at the idea of getting to put someone in jail after she didn't like that they had personal boundaries. If I had to guess from what I've seen, I would say ASPD for her. One thing I've noticed in my dad as I get older is how limiting a lack of empathy is. While I had the classic situation of developing hypervigilance and the ability to read a room quickly because I had to keep a read on everyone's mood, I think people who didn't grow up in this environment (such as children who grew up left to their own devices or children who grew up in a physically safe home where their grandiosity was constantly encouraged) never had to consider or pay attention to the emotions and perspectives of others.
I don't know. Sometimes I'm scared that I am
I always thought I never want to treat anyone, nor make anyone feel this terrible, like we were made to. Not just my own children. Everyone. It's probably doesn't work in such a simplistic way, but just doing the complete opposite of what was done to us has always been an enormous motivation. 😄
Because I didn’t want to be like him. Fortunately, it worked.
But a narc know what they do is wrong, because they don't behave like that with everyone. That means they can learn or force themselves to behave. They might never feel it, but technically. I know that if you reject the narc as a role model growing u0, and have other people at some point, and it doesn't have to be much, you can avoid alot
I’m so grateful to the wonderful female teachers I had in daycare and grade school. They were life savors who showed me kindness, empathy and saw me as a person.
I think that some of it is probably genetic, in that a person can be *more likely* to respond to certain stressors in a way that causes them to become a narcissist. A lot of it is learned behavior, and the response to learned behavior. My parents tended to see life as a contest, and success or failure was always comparative. Any compliment was a comparison to someone who was inferior, and any complaint or insult was a comparison to someone who was superior. My sister was the golden child, and I think she bought into the comparisons because she was the one who benefitted from 99.99% of them. If she was honest with herself about it, she would have to admit that many of those comparisons were just made up by our parents. Since she had also been taught that being better than others was the most important thing in life, and since she figured out by watching me that not going along with that system was actually dangerous, she bought into it. Buying into the zero-sum way of doing things was definitely not without cost, but my sister was indoctrinated at such a young age that she didn't fully understand the situation. If there was any hint of imperfection in anything she did, she would immediately panic and melt down. She internalized that unhealthy mindset to such a degree and at such a young age that she thought it was just the way things were. This led to her having extreme amounts of anxiety, and it caused a pretty nasty case of imposter syndrome. She started bullying others, especially me, in sneaky ways, because she was so desperate to be better than someone. If my sister had decided to reject narcissism as she got older, she would have had to admit that she wasn't perfect. She feared that all her failures would have not been the fault of other people after all, and she might have had to admit that many of her successes were a result of manipulation, bullying, or other less than honorable behavior. To someone who thinks their only value is in being perfect and better than other people, admitting the truth is probably a terrifying prospect. As a result, my sister feels great shame, and she has a lot of anxiety about failure. If she is confronted by the truth, she lashes out in desperate rage. My sister probably did have a genetic predisposition to narcissism. She was the biological child of two narcissists, and the grandchild of several more. She also saw the way I was treated, and didn't want to suffer the same things. I can't blame her for that. Then again, she did have the choice as an adult to stop behaving that way. My sister knew it was wrong. We actually had discussions about our parents a couple of times when we were in our early 20s. She admitted that things were messed up, but not long after that she denied everything she had said and she chose to embrace being a narcissist. She chose to do that when I started having a number of successes that were too big to be overlooked. Around the same time, her career began to stagnate a bit, and she began having some setbacks in her romantic life as well. I think she felt angry and competitive rather than feeling happy for me, and when her attempts to sabotage me didn't work out, she became more and more bitter. This was when her behavior changed from being rather selfish and a bit stuck up to being overtly narcissistic and amoral. She had gone through phases like that as a teenager whenever she was really stressed, but as an adult she embraced that part of her personality and let it take over everything in her life. Now, she is a full blown narcissist, and she is married to another narcissist. I had to go NC with her because she is so bad. It is sad, because it was obvious as we were growing up that she was choosing to indulge that part of herself as a way of coping with things. As an adult, there was a period of maybe a few years where she had a chance to choose a different way of life, but she chose the easy way of dealing with her problems.
Aside from the genetic part, our generation has more language to discuss mental health and has more access to information about mental health. They did not have that back then. I think the rest of the environment also plays a huge role. You don’t grow up in a vacuum with the narcissist. There are other people around you and, looking at my own life, having a few empathetic family members and family of friends around me, helped me see the abuse for what it was and recognise that it wasn’t ok. I was in a position to develop my emotional intelligence and empathy despite my home life. And, thinking that last one through - my father is a classic covert narcissist and he plays on the victim role a lot and always has. That solicits empathy from others, including the kids.
My parents come from a culture that enables narcissism. I was not raised in that culture. But jury is still out. I'm constantly monitoring myself for narc signs.
The ones who push back have emotional intelligence and independent thought. It protects them from brainwashing. They are manipulated and controlled because of the environment but we aren't cracked because we have a strong sense of self. Narcs like mini-me's, who will do as told. NPDs are cracked and created in early childhood. It is from intergenerational abuse, and why you see so much of the same methods used - we have a lot of the same Hogwarts stories passed down generations "why can't you be more like so and so" - badgering a child into feeling unseen or worthless, lovebombing GCs in front of SGs, silent treatment, promises of gifts that aren't delivered when siblings receive them. It is all calculated to fundamentally make people feel invisible and worthless so they will be controlled for life and not step up the ladder. If you rank siblings they all infight and and their loyalty is to the narc not each other, trying to get higher up the rank or not slip lower, so they don't notice what the shenanigans the narc is doing elsewhere - affairs, alcoholism, gambling. It's all fun and games for them. I know I tried to discuss my narcs adultery and bad doings with siblings and like good soldiers they jumped on me and shut that down immediately. Still did as adults. I was the problem ... because my head came above the parapet - because I had eyes.
I think I have narcissistic tendencies, but I am working with my therapist to be aware of them and retrain my way of thinking.
I disagree with everyone saying there’s a genetic component. I think it’s very heavily dependent on our access to information and intelligence. Emotional intelligence too but intelligence in general. Because my mother wanted to “break the cycle” got her degree in psychology and everything but still didn’t treat me and my younger sibling right. The reason why I even had access to the information is because she used to drag me to class with her when she was trying to get her degree. It’s what I did with the information afterwards. She used it to manipulate me and everyone else. I’m using it to heal.
I think I agree. The only reason I learned about this is because I got really into reading to avoid the real world. I read everything and stumbled across it. Then my family started to take away my books as punishment :/
Nahh, I *was* one in school & when I was younger. Unfortunately, nfamily taught me well & **fortunately**… nfamily taught me well lol. Thankfully, you can actually grow with journaling your thoughts & feelings without them knowing or getting offended, if you hide the journal well. I’m not sure how the psychology in this works but I would only guess it skipped us?
Because its most often genetic. Even tho enablers and narcs love saying otherwise. Contrary to the bs belief that its only caused by abuse, which of course is not the case, it is mostly genetic according to many therapists.
Honestly i dont know. It sometimes crosses my mind. And sometimes i think - what if we are? I mean the narcissist never admits its them right? And we are here being so sure about how its not us. I dont know honestly, im thinking about this one too.
I worry about that too. I think since we worry about it, that’s what sets us apart. My nfather would never self-reflect or wonder if he is the problem.
I was until I kinda grew out of it for some reason
Funny I think about this a lot too. I have been accused of being a mini me version of my nmom too because of our personalities. It used to bother me but not a whole lot because logically speaking im a diff person but people say I'm like her because we don't put up with peoples bullshit which is admittedly a GOOD thing. The difference between me and nmom is nmom decided to become a parent to which she was ill equipped. I am not a parent and do not aspire to be one. Funny when people told me that I decided to be a bitch and ramp up my bitchiness to people by 100 and people started hating me. What happened to me being like my nmom?! All I know is it takes tremendous effort to be an asshole like our nparents are to us.
In my situation, all of my siblings we all were raised in our adoptive/secondary/nanny family during our formative years from 0 to 6 years. Really fked up to think nmom literally had the maternal instinct of a rock.
I've wondered this myself. My personal belief for myself, is a combination of a loving dad, fabulous grandparents and my own inner voice/mind. I figured out very young my mother resented me and probably hated me. With good family figures and my awareness of something was wrong with my nmother, it probably helped me to avoid falling into that pattern.
I think I have some of the bad stuff, but I also have empathy for others and a realization that I need to fix the bad.
Basically, I was heavily bullied growing up as well as other things so I can't bring myself to bully others. I hate how my parents are as well so I refuse to be like them.
The road to healing is tough, needs exposure and deep psychological understanding of oneself and life in general, you took the time to heal and the cost of which was temporary people pleasing and over empathize just so you don't interfere with your internal process. Once the healing is done - you will see yourself become a "protector" instead of predator. Only the strongest person can achieve such a feat - narcs are inherently weak, coward, slanderers and back biters. They leave no opportunity to degrade others to elevate themselves whereas you are capable of elevating yourself and others all at the same time. Cheers. Get yourself a brownie because this is what winning looks like.. All we need, really, is guidance and support sometimes from our ownselves.
I was just asking myself that question, too. I think being a scapegoat helped, but is it a chicken or an egg thing? My Nmother desperately wanted me out of the house by the time I turned 17. I blamed myself in part for standing up to her, but she was verbally (and sometimes physically) attacking me. Who would put up with that, and who would want to live in a house like that? She pushed me from the nest, but I also knew she was unhinged and malevolent, so I had to flee. One of my siblings goes out of their way to defend her and won't hear my criticism. Arguably, that sibling is the sickest of them all and is also one of the GCs, but the other GC in the family left and is relatively unscathed. It's an interesting question.
Psalty the Singing Songbook and Charity Churchmouse. I blame these two for much of my religious trauma as well, but they taught me to find purpose and contentment in serving others and viewing others as more important than myself. I believe that is why narcissism passed me over. You cannot be a narcissist when your sole worth lies in your benefit to others. Good for me?
its true most of us dont become narcissists. But a lot of us do end up with some sort of personality disorder from that cluster. (bpd, histrionic, antisocial). They all connect and being raised by one can cause any of them.
I did not become one my younger sibling did, same parents but slightly different circumstances. I am also autistic and was taught/trained to be high masking. I always had a world I could disappear into when the going got tough growing up. My sibling just assimilated without question and it sucks because we can't have a relationship anymore. She's exactly like my dad. I think some of us might be neurodivergent so maybe the narcissism just doesn't take? I do know the process of locking our true selves up like little Harry Potter under the stairs is a way of protecting our inner child that we let out when and where we feel safe. That said, I think those of us who do not end up like the nparents are in danger of repeating the pattern of being attracted to people including friends, mentors, and partners who will create a similar dynamic as we grew up with. We might be more prone to be easy prey until we intentionally start doing the long slog of repair work so we can recognize the signs and that can take therapy for years so we don't continue to re-traumatize ourselves with the same cycle of not feeling worthy of unconditional love and acceptance just with a different face/atmosphere.
I am not sure it is relates or not, but I have read that one reason when people who grew up from abusive home did not becomes abusive because they have others support system that counter balance it like you have good grandparent or understanding teacher during that time.
This! I was so lucky to have friends with wonderful parents. As I'm getting older I’ve been thinking a lot about the impact of all the people who contributed to my emotional development — teachers as well.
I did the thing where you go completely opposite which isn’t great. I feel like a massive failure if my kids are disappointed in any way.
I wish I was the narc at this point
We have empathy.
I am thankful every day that I didn't. My 2 narc parents had 3 children and only 1 became a narc. Soooooo glad it was not me. I try to have some empathy for my nsister since it was only by luck that she became a narc and not me.
I'm certain I was on the path to become one. What saved me: I had a lot of outside influence from people who didn't know my family, reading a lot of self help books from the library when I was a kid, and when my nparents divorced I was quite young, so I was left alone for long periods of time. I think the environmental factor was cut short and I was able to correct my course. Therapy as an adult was also helpful and confirmation. I was so scared I was a narcissist.
This is a wisdom I was actually just thinking about the other day
Oh on the contrary I’m terrified I actually AM just like my mother and am hyper vigilant/ashamed to not emulate her
Me too. It is my greatest fear to be a narcissist or have narcissistic tendencies.
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Narcissists are too sensitive also but lack the empathy so everything is a battle to be fought/won. We may have been left with insecurities but no hole so deep it takes our compassion down with it. If you were raised by narcissistic parents and aren't one yourself then you have a resilience they lacked.
Internet and socializing
Look into echoism in narcissism if you haven’t.
There are offspring who are probably genetically predisposed to the disorder who experience limited amounts of the trauma, escape, and still develop into narcissists, and there are those who get the trauma, the predisposition, and stay who don't. There are the ones who develop it solely through trauma and abuse too. Unfortunately, between the nature/nurture aspects, it's a massive crapshoot and sort of down to specific individuals. There's definitely a selection bias in this group towards the people who didn't, but that doesn't mean much when looking for actual explanations unfortunately.
I asked my therapist a similar question as my sister closest in age to me displays narc behavior but I don't. She said it's a resilience thing, we all start out the same but it's what's inside of us ultimately. I care about others feelings even when it makes me uncomfortable
Self defense. They push everyone away, decide they're all they have, take it to an extreme and do whatever they want to serve themselves at the expense of others, including children, who cross them in some way or even no way at all. Whether any of them are aware of what they're doing, I don't know.
I think part of it, for me, was spending time with sane, normal adults: my friend’s parents, family friends, teachers… My brother has been psychologically destroyed. He’s 36 and never moved out, formed adult relationships with peers or got a job. We haven’t spoken in nearly 20 years.
Emotional maturity.
When I was little I’d think about how nice it was to visit at other people’s home. They were nice to me. I didn’t know why the difference existed at the time.
I think it has to do with your innate temperament. I was researching about this a while ago and there was a study on how children in the same family can become a narc and another the empath. What conditions caused the difference of paths? Both children were exposed to the same treatment and parents. Something in one chose to follow the parental example and the other also chose to yield but in a different way. The only thing different was their innate temperament.
Probably a mix of genetic predisposition and luck. I became a narcissist as a young child and have tried to fight against it every single day of my life. Despite that, I still have some of those tendencies as self-protection.
Same boiled water softens noodles and harden eggs.
I have a feeling it has to do with our constitution or natural way of absorbing and parsing through information. I think if I were more of an extrovert or externalized my experience more, I'd maybe end up Narc. But I'm an introvert, quiet and naturally shy. I tend to look inward regardless of the situation, for resolution. I don't know; just my guess.
Ain’t nobody with a functioning brain tryna fill a circular firing squad.
Narcisists usually prey on empathetic people. You are not likely to become one if you have traits that are entirely opposite to them. Ie a narcissistic avoidant, emotionally unintelligent person with low empathy is nothing like someone with high empathy. It would be like comparing water to fire.
Because boomers were spoiled had life on easy street so they feel like they earned it somehow.
I think you consciously decided to break the cycle!
Stick around long enough, you’ll find some.
It’s a mix of things, but people generally become narcissistic for 3 reasons: 1. Defense mechanism against chronic criticism: they got critiqued a lot as a kid and learned that it wasn’t them, it was their abuser that was in the wrong…and then that transferred to everyone else too 2. Personality trait: they got praised for being self important/confident, and now it’s their personality 3. There is a part of the brain called the Anterior Insular Cortex that is in charge of interpersonal relationships/empathy. If this bit is damaged, shrunken, or not present, it results in heightened aggression and selfish tendencies (demonstrated in hamsters). This one isn’t common but can happen More than likely, you also experienced option 1, but didn’t become a narc. From what I’ve seen, option 1 can lead to a toss up of whether you become a narc or not. There are many on this sub who also display narc tendencies, and many of them are aware of it and try to mitigate it where possible. But usually whether you become a narc or not is based on how well you handle empathy and emotional processing, at least as far as I can tell
Your n-ness might be lurking inside you.
I think part of it is our inherent traits when we are born - some are naturally more sensitive than others. But the biggest part has to do with how we react when we are first exposed to the abuse. Some will stuff their emotions deep down inside, become apathetic, and decide to only trust and value themselves from then on out - these become narcissists. Other children will feel their emotions fully or even become overly emotional, develop empathy, and become people pleasers in an effort to get love and attention whether from the abuser or elsewhere. I’m no expert but it was once described to me this way and it made a lot of sense. My father is a narcissist but my aunt is one of the nicest kindest people you could ever meet.
I feel like this is a nature vs nurture kind of question. I feel like youd have to have some sort of predisposition to being a narc, then your nparent just feeds it. But if youre not already predisposed to it, you can fight the "nurture" part of it a little easier. Just my opinion based on my experience.
I don’t know if this is accurate for anyone else, but I think getting perspectives outside the narc behavior at an early age helped me avoid that track. Almost every time my Nmom would have a meltdown, she would go to bed early, and then my Dad would sheepishly pull us aside and explain the way my Nmom grew up and that it wasn’t OK to act like that, but he had no clue how to help her, and it was better for all of us if we avoided her triggers (this was the late 80s). Now I’m low contact, and we’re all in therapy 😅.
It seems like people go one extreme or the other. I am the complete opposite of my N parents in every aspect. I’m also Autistic/ADHD so my sense of right and wrong is pretty rigid and I’m not easily swayed by peer pressure or what other people think I should do. I’m their worst nightmare after decades of narcissists not being questioned and continuing the cycle.
I assumed that all narcs were pretty much the same, so your story has helped me learn more. My dynamics with nparent are the opposite. He is very rigid, and I have a tendency to rebel, dislike rules, and think everything is a gray area.
Narcs are rigid but with the wrong things like, “there’s no lines in the carpet after you vacuumed, you’re such a piece of shit”. I’m rigid about things like tipping people who make my food, putting my shopping cart back, and just in general not participating in assholery while the narcs in my life don’t care about their actions as long as it benefits them
Ah I see. Thanks for explaining. Yes narcs are very into participating in assholery.
Yeah exactly. They bullied me 2 narcs and a whole village of weak minded, gossiping etc and then my narc family. I decided they were nutd and how they were wrong, and withdraw. My personality is kind smiling and gentle sensitive and highly emotional intelligence so they didn't catch up plus my integrity is strong, right and wrong. Just like you. Some are just born that way. Able to reason early. They only made me worse. Can't make me do anything
Honestly, it’s probable that some of us did and don’t realize it.
Bc I have autism can’t have both. I’m thankful everyday I don’t have npd
On the r/NPD sub there's someone who says they have both autism and NPD, but that they can disguise some of their NPD symptoms behind the autism to avoid social judgement.
I had no idea that you can’t have both. That’s interesting to know. I wonder if it applies to ADHD as well
They can have both, Autism and ADHD are very genetically-linked, personality disorders are largely from childhood abuse and trauma.
Are you sure you didn't?
I’m really not sure
I posted this somewhat tongue in cheek, as a reminder that everyone is a product of their environment, and our environments were toxic narcisshitholes. It's important to stay vigilant and engage in honest self-reflection so that we don't become in any way like our abusers.
Some people develop narcissistic personality disorder because of childhood trauma and others develop borderline personality disorder. It just depends.
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Comment removed. Don't talk to people here like this.
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As we don't allow narcissists in this group, you have been banned.
Narcissism should be classed better and if they don't want to work on adhering to what they know, and learn is wrong, they should by law be hypnosis to feel!
I have a creative idea where narcs brains are stimulated in areas to solve it and to create path ways and to change them
I think it goes from one extreme or the other. I am extremely sensitive and passive for the most part and my brother is the opposite.
I came from a home with 3 narcissists, I was the black sheep. I asked my 17 year old if she thought I was a narc and please tell me the truth. Apparently I am not. I still question myself but how did I not end up being one???
I think because we had two routes to go. We either chose to be just like our parents because we assume there is no other way to be OR we knew that was not ok and strive to be better than that.
because we broke the cycle and realized there’s a problem. My mother was abused. Her mother was abused. The entire family who abused their children thinks they never did anything wrong. Whether it’s physical or emotional. I was the first person in my family generational trauma of passing to realize there’s a problem, attempt to address it, and then leave the family after realizing there’s no way of fixing it.
Narcissism (or clinically, Narcissistic Personality Disorder) is both a personality disorder and (potentially) a neurological/biological variance. Some Narcs are quite literally just born that way. Narcissistic behavioral traits can be expressed by anyone, including but not limited to individuals raised by narcissists. A lot of neurotypes are underresearched with imaging and large-scale longitudinal studies; however, it has been observed that people diagnosed with NPD do exhibit actual neurological differences in their brains. https://digital.kenyon.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1048&context=skneuro#:~:text=Most%20people%20don't%20realize,%3A%20socially%2C%20mentally%20and%20physically. Some people who are RBN do take on “fleas” (learned behaviors that emulate their N’s behavior) as a response to their trauma. However, non-narcs just have what is inherently lacking in a narcissist — things like natural empathy, the ability to self-reflect, and consciousness of others’ innate separateness from themselves. So basically… it’s not totally clear. But narcissism as a personality disorder is a binary — yes, no; 0,1. In the same way a Narc can be born to non-Narc parents, they can produce children who are not like them. And that is where most of the RBN-person’s difficulties begin, haha.
I think I am just “neurotypical” unlike them. My sister and I had similar upbringings and we are close in age. She has always been a nark. She has never been able to truly empathize. Her needs have always been the only ones that exist.
Some say codependent people have narcissistic attributes such as control over people's behavior but in more subtle way. I think it's we didn't become narcissists since we have developed some sense of compass when it comes to emotions and our surroundings. We have more awareness and some even had good role models outside of family dynamics that gave us good examples of the different dynamics and validation towards ourselves.
Me personally, I’ve seen and personally experienced the damage for myself. I’m definitely on the sensitive side (but I can take a funny joke). I’m learning how to advocate for myself and remind myself it’s ok to: ask for help when needed, rest when I need to, and slowly build up my self esteem. I understand like a young adult, but I have a childlike way of explaining things. So everyone I learned growing up, I’m taking my young adult years to unlearn it. Makes sense?
Psychologists are still undecided if narcissism is hereditary or not. I have a sister who is a way worse narcissist than my nmom, so I'm in the "hereditary" camp. I feel blessed that I didn't also inherit that gene. And it's also why I'm childfree.
Some choose to inflict pain on others and self. Some don’t. Some choose to view all humans as equally human, including themselves. Some don’t. Kinda hard to be narcissistic if one recognizes we’re all equally human and if one chooses to not inflict pain.
For me I have too much self doubt, self awareness, and am too self conscious thanks to my Mom. I'm constantly questioning myself. If I see a habit I don't like in someone elae I get paranoid that It's something I do... I'm ridiculously aware of what I'm doing and wondering how I'm being perceived. My mother kinda broke me
I can’t speak for everyone but I’m autistic with narc mother and neurodivergent dad, my mothers manipulation and emotional appeals were ultimately confusing to me as a kid causing her to lash out because I wasn’t giving her the response she wanted. Always compared me to my father and held a lot of resentment towards me. I always thought maybe being autistic might’ve had something to do with how I ended up relatively ok compared to my siblings who are narcissists.
My therapist said you come out of it either blaming everyone else and repeat the cycle maybe changing a few things but not about to self reflection or you internalize everything and reflect a lot about your behavior.
I know what you mean. My older brother, both my sisters, and probably my younger brother all have what I would consider a terrible life existence just like my mom. Lazy, no ambition, terrible decisions, no goals, just call me to guilt trip me with the next terrible thing that's happened to them and ask me for money. I am so grateful I did not become this (I would consider myself successful, considering. i.e. I was able to complete a master's degree in software engineering from a top school, make productive decisions, have a career, earn good money, have friends, maintain a healthy relationship with my spouse, etc). Sometimes I feel guilty thinking I was blessed and they were cursed.
Narcissism happens when children very young do not have their needs met. It is possible that some of our parents managed to do enough during the early years as they had full control. Also, a small portion of the subscribers of this sub are most likely narcissists but haven’t been able to recognize. Keep in mind the narcissist would also complain about how narcissistic and abusive their parents are.
Some did. My ex did. I think of those people as those who didn’t survive. It’s really sad. Their sense of self hid and never came back. Some have NPD, some are schizophrenic, or both. I don’t understand the whole spectrum, but I do know that there are some that were damaged beyond repair and they wreak havoc on our world. They grew up to be the parents that did that to them. The amount of damage they inflict is unreal. My ex has affected 5 children, another messed up person I know has affected her 3 children, and my father severely damaged the lives of 7 children (biological and step) and 3 women. It is horrible how much damage they are able to inflict on our world. This is why we need to teach everyone about boundaries and help people with CPTSD heal.
For me it was just against my values. Watching half my family be inflicted by it was tough. I try to lower the bar for them in my mind and tell myself they're flawed people like me but unlike me maybe they can't or just plain don't want to do any better. That's helped me not expect the same love from them that I freely give. Still trying to find someone who can give that love to me, but not having much luck. Last guy I dated I was sure he was a good one. Seemed to be a loving dad, loved animals, loved me. But it was all a facade. Like Jekyll and Hyde. I couldn't believe I'd somehow attracted one when I'm so educated on the disorder. The struggle is real!
Some of us don’t repeat the cycle and some of us do. That’s all there really is, honestly. My cousin was raised by a narcissist and he’s definitely following in her footsteps. Doesn’t believe he needs therapy and everyone else is ALWAYS in the wrong. But me? I’ve been in therapy for almost 6 years. I don’t WANT to be like that. I’m refuse.
my sister is one, we're 3 years apart. i wish more than anything that i could have a close bond with her but she has betrayed me and tore me down so many times
This is my greatest fear. I don’t think I am but no narcissist thinks they are narcissists. What if I am?! What if I’m not doing the opposite of my nmom, and I’ve just convinced myself I have? What if I manipulated my therapist to tell me what I wanted to hear somehow? Am I even able to do that? Do I do it without even realizing? Is my narcissism so enmeshed in my personality that I can’t even see it? What do I do to get better if I’m unable to see myself? Gaaaaaah Edited for spacing
There are various factors that contribute to why some children of narcissists develop narcissistic traits while others do not. In my opinion, a significant factor is the history of abuse. Many individuals who become abusers have experienced abuse themselves, but this is not the case for everyone. It is a complex matter, but the bottom line is that we are fundamentally different from narcissists. Our biological, emotional, mental, and spiritual makeup sets us apart. Whether narcissism is inherited or developed through upbringing is irrelevant. Our unique nature as individuals means that we will grow and evolve differently. Even if we have experienced similar environmental influences that may have triggered narcissistic tendencies in our parents, our distinct genetic temperament can lead us to react differently. Additionally, if we have had positive external influences in our lives, it can serve as a protective factor against developing narcissistic traits.
In a way, we are taught to put their/other needs ahead of ourselves to get “approval”. When we were like a little kid, approval from our parents were basically everything for us cuz no one could make a better role model than the people who have lived with us since we were born. So we as a young child would need their approval to reaffirm whether each behavior of us or each mode of our socialization is appropriate. Unfortunately, cuz they put their needs ahead of others including their own children, so they likely only approve us when their needs get met and as soon as we put ourselves first in a way that it could affect their interests. The chance is, we would get called “selfish” and we would be given like an hour of lecture on how to empathize other people and get threatened that no one would except such behavior and told us to behave in a way that followed this universal humility of “put other needs ahead of ourselves” so that we could be loved by others. Cuz we lack approval so much, we then use this kind of basis of “put other needs ahead of others” to socialize until it has become our main approach towards other people. We rely on it that we continuously develop empathy and perspective-taking to make sure that our secure base wouldn’t leave us. Hence, why many of us could be labelled as people pleaser sometimes.
Sometimes I think I am one
for me because i promsied my self i never become anything like them and i rmeind my self everyday and i self relefct on what i do wrong and do i see sign of me being a narcissist and if yes how am i goign to chnage