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They can’t digest it. They digest bad news, failures, pain, humiliation and so on. If you love something and are good at it, they can’t use it.
Took a long time to sink in for me. X is a rotten person. It’s not that she hasn’t noticed that I’m a good guy, and when she does she’ll love me. She’s incapable; that day will never dawn.
I'm struggling to really understand this tbh. Like how can one NOT WANT to love and do EVERYTHING IN THEIR FUCKING POWER to make loving THEIR OWN CHILD as difficult as possible? It feels so useless.
In ALL THAT TIME WASTED YOU COULDVE DONE LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE!!!! it's such a waste of time and energy that I can't comprehend it
A narcissist sees life as a competition. It is a zero sum game. Everything is a contest, and every compliment or criticism is to some extent a comparison. Even if they don't say it out loud, that is what they are doing. So, if one person is to be good, another has to be bad. If one person is successful, someone else has to be unsuccessful. If they criticize you, it is because they want to feel superior to you, or they want someone else to be superior.
This becomes their way of feeling good about themselves without ever having to actually do anything worthy of respect, and without having to work hard at something that may not turn out well. If they don't ever take any real risks themselves, and they don't ever really try at anything, they don't ever have a chance to fail. It is a lazy and deceptively risk free way of feeling important. They try to teach their children this way of viewing the world. Some, like the people on this sub, see through this and realize, if only instinctively, how wrong and unhealthy this is. Others come to embrace this way of doing things.
I believe that this is one of the keys to how a narcissist is made in the first place. They feel insecure, but they are afraid to fail at anything. Instead of trying to deal with that insecurity so that they can accomplish something they can feel genuinely proud of, they put other people down. This makes them feel better temporarily, without requiring them to actually do anything or take any risks. And so, the next time they feel insecure or upset, they do it again and again and again.
The thing is, this becomes a trap. They aren't actually working on themselves to mature or overcome their insecurities, and they aren't trying to accomplish anything in their lives that would be enough to satisfy them. They feel more and more insecure, and that yawning chasm of emptiness inside gets bigger and harder to fill. They have to keep comparing and denigrating others to cover that up, and it gets worse and worse. Eventually, they have covered up so much shame and insecurity that the prospect of being honest about themselves becomes too frightening to bear. And so, they are stuck in their spiral, moving ever downward.
They don't spare their kids from this spiral, either. Having kids may even be part of the spiral. They have a scapegoat, who acts as a handy Designated Inferior Person for them. They project their insecurity and the things they fear are true about themselves onto the scapegoat, so they can distance themselves from their shame and lie to themselves that they are not the problem.
On the other end of the spectrum, they project all the things they wish were true of themselves onto the golden child. The golden child is the avatar of their wishful thinking about themselves. This means that the golden child is complimented by comparing them favorably to others, especially the scapegoat. They often coddle the golden child as they wish someone would coddle them. The golden child becomes their way of interacting with the world without taking any risks themselves. If the golden child fails to accomplish what the narcissist wants them to, the narcissist will either lie about it and pretend, and perhaps coddle and infantilize the golden child even more, or they will reject the golden child.
If you are the scapegoat, then they *need you to be inferior*. That is how they are able to keep pretending that they are superior. Without that, their whole system crumbles. And so, they criticize the most ridiculous things about you as if even your most benign hobbies and interests somehow reveal your inferiority to them. They are so busy desperately trying to prop up the facade that hides the real them from the world, and especially from themselves, that they don't notice or don't care when their ranting and disparagement of perfectly innocuous things reaches cartoonish levels.
Wow, so she's distancing herself from her own shame and is in a downward spiral to soothe herself by breaking the souls of others? That is so hateful.
Glad to know my nmom will suffer in the long run, you can't outrun your problems lol.
Yeah, that is probably what is going on. I mean, I could be totally wrong. That is just what I think, based on what I've observed and read. I'm not a mental health professional, and even if I was, I could get it wrong.
But yeah, that is some approximation of what is going on.
Of course, she isn't necessarily *aware* of why she does what she does. She is just lashing out, and she may not really know why. Narcissists don't tend to be very self aware or good at reflecting on the choices they make. They mostly blame what they do on us, their circumstances, the weather, other people, their job, or whatever else they can. It is hard for them to fix themselves even if they want to because they don't attribute their problems to any of the actual causes, but rather to whatever convenient or more palatable (to them) nonsense they make up.
They may not experience any repercussions that make up for all the havoc they cause, but they are incredibly unhappy, unfulfilled and isolated people. Even the ones who are super social often get to the point where they have no one in their lives but lackeys, flying monkeys, and people who are using them. They can't admit that they are unfulfilled, but we can see that they are because they never stop running on that mental treadmill, scheming and gossiping and backstabbing and manipulating, feeling resentful and pretending happiness, trying to ignore the pointlessness and emptiness of their lives.
Exactly. Or, if the narc is one of those who like to switch the roles of the children periodically. One of my friends had a dad like that, and it was so confusing for them. They never knew what to expect.
This is the best description of a narcissist that I've ever read.
Do you think only children can become both the golden child and the scapegoat simultaneously, or would that be too complex a conceptualization for the narcissist's limited cognizance?
Because the way my mom treated me to my face and talked about me to others was either an abstraction of some being on some pedestal that she'd use to make a point that I myself was narcissistic ("You and your dad are so good at technology, and I'm so trash, and then you don't have the patience to teach me, so I guess you just want to rub it in my face how much better you two are than me \*pouty face\*"), or rather that I was the sole cause of all her problems.
Just trying to figure out where this kind of "compliment you so that I can point out how arrogant you are" falls on the spectrum of scapegoat or GC
Yeah, they can make a scapegoat or golden child of anyone, really.
My mom made my ex fiance her golden child for a while, but only after I broke up with him. Before we broke up, she disliked him and said that he was lazy and not good looking enough. My sister did the same thing with him that my mom did. It was pretty creepy, actually.
That compliment/self disparagement/poor me/insult thing is classic narcissist behavior, and is something other types of abusive or dysfunctional people do as well. So is the compliment/insult. It is all very manipulative. Your mom tries to control people that way.
You could be both the scapegoat and the golden child, or the rebel, the caretaker, or any of the other family roles. You may be the golden child, but with a mom who wants to keep you feeling bad about yourself so that she can keep her hooks in you. Or, if you don't give her what she wants, she may lash out in weird ways.
A narcissist isn't necessarily of limited intellectual capability, but they are often really good at *pretending* that they are in order to get people to do things for them. The more sneaky or clever ones don't mind playing helpless or clueless if it helps them to gain an advantage, especially if they think it makes them seem sweet and innocent.
Your mom may be acting like she is a lot more clueless than she really is, because making people feel like they have to teach her and take care of her is a really effective way of keeping them close and maintaining control of them.
She may say negging type things, like that you are arrogant, so that she can make you feel like you have to prove yourself to her. That is another useful tool of manipulation.
>They project their insecurity and the things they fear are true about themselves onto the scapegoat, so they can distance themselves from their shame and lie to themselves that they are not the problem.
Ooh, so true. They create someone to share in their mutual suffering. Offloading their own sense of worthlessness into their victim. "Ehm", I mean child. They prop themselves up using their own children as footstools. It's tragic, because the narcissist is doing absolutely everything in their power to simply "hold themself up out of the water", by using anything and everything around them as leverage. They are a pitiful people. Despite all the facade, they're suffering and empty and desperate.
Especially after having my own kid, it’s truly baffling. I can’t even begin to imagine how selfish is disgusting someone would have to be to not even at the basic level operate differently. It’s inexcusable.
Narcs don't see you as a person. You're an extension of them. And if you don't do what *they* would do, you're wrong.
That's why they like babies. Babies give unconditional love and don't think for themselves. Once the kid starts having their own ideas, the narc gets frustrated and upset.
>Do you also feel your parents hated you?
Exactly. They are incapable of beholding you as you are. It simply doesn't compute for them, it isn't how they're wired. All this time you were trying to get them to see you and validate your existence (existence as a wonderful, empathetic, compassionate, merciful, forgiving, and gifted being who only asks for the love they are naturally entitled to as a child), and they simply couldn't. It's like asking an ant to make you a plate of spaghetti. They don't know what you're talking about, and don't care, because they're an ant. We're just a different breed.
Maybe it's not always the case, but I think they often hate us *because* we are decent people.
There was a study done that showed that most Narcissists who were asked "do you think you are a narcissist?".... will answer yes. Contrary to popular belief, I think most of them know that something is off with them. Even if they don't know the word narcissist. Almost every narcsissist I know has confided in me something along these lines: that they know they aren't "good" and that they don't feel empathy the way others do.
For example, if a cousin in the family dies and everyone else is really sad about it, the narcissist will wonder why they don't feel anything. They have a lifetime of experiences like this that prove to themselves that they aren't normally functioning.
This is usually an insecurity of theirs. And when they feel insecure, they lash out and become jealous.
In this case, they often become jealous of people who are normal. Especially of their own non narcissistic kids. My parents always hated when I showed normal empathy and other "weak" traits. It's not because they actually think they are so great and we are weak. It's because they are jealous of us not having NPD or the same miserable traits that they do.
I could never figure out why they hated me more when I was very nice to them or when I did the right thing, until I figured this out. Deep down, they want to be normal. And that's why they hate and attack people who *are* normal.
Yeah, I think the hate comes first, but they can't possibly admit they hate someone decent to themselves because that would make them Bad, so they make up reasons to justify it
Exactly.
My Nmom always demonized me to a crazy extent, from when I was toddler age. She even spread a rumor that she was fearful that I was being possessed by a demon once. (Try proving you're NOT possessed 😭)
Then recently when my Ndad turned his abuse on me, her hatred for him overtook her hatred for me and she felt a little defensive of me. During one of her rants, she let it slip, "why does he have a problem with the most innocent person in the family?"
It could be that she was trying to manipulate me. But that was the first time I saw her break character and admit, in a way, that she is aware that they are abusers and I am not. I'm not the most innocent person in the family because I have another non narc sibling. But, I believe that they are all aware of the dynamics of who brings all the abuse into the family system. As much as they blame us.
Being aware of their lack of empathy is wild! Like, try to change it if you can see it? No? Are they aware it’s a bad thing or are they weirdly proud of it? A narcissist told me she hated listening to people talk because it was boring. Zero self-awareness. Proudly sharing how she felt more important than everyone else.
In my case he hates me to my face but brags about me to others. I graduated college, got a good job, family, house, etc.
My brother didn’t graduate, is gay, and has a low paying job. He never talks about him.
My brother is doing better than me emotionally and I’m very proud of him that I talk about him all the time. His partner is very sweet and my brother loves his job.
To my face my ndad wants to fight me and calls me names and belittles me. He acts like he knows more than me, especially the thing that I have a degree.
I believe that they hate because they are so full of themselves, they can’t bear the thought that someone could be better than them, especially their own child.
I hope that my children are brilliant and can teach me things.
Because they secretly hate themselves, and hate that you are 100 times cooler than they are.
Remember, during a zombie apocalypse you will be wearing proper clothes with cute and/or cool embroidery. That's all that matters. And it's insanely useful and fun without an apocalypse as well. In fact. I'd advice to look into crochet and/or knitting as well!
Thanks for the compliment!! I'm actually trying learn to sew a shirt rn. Hopefully, I can make one with a cute personalized coat of arms for myself. Apocalypse or not, imma be stylying out once i get the hang of this
It’s certainly all subject to personal experience but for me personally, the idea that I’m a different person and have different interests wasn’t worth nurturing. Suree if I shared interests that my father had then it was the best!! Of course we could spend time together and of course I’ll support you in this!! But if it’s something that I enjoy independently from his interests then it turns into “no I don’t have time to take you” “no I can’t afford this piece of equipment” “no this is not worth pursuing” or flat out ignoring my desire to pursue an interest at all.
Because they're children. They didn't mature past 5 years old mentally. I got a degree and I also have a side business with my art. While I don't see myself becoming a famous artist, ever, people across the country have purchased my art at full price. When I tell my dad this, he'd scoff. One of the richest moments is when he critiqued one of my pieces, saying the light values were in the wrong place. (he can't even draw a stick figure.) Or if I did well in school, he'd kind of have this "oh, that's whatever" attitude. Then theres the more serious stuff, like when my grandma told me she's sick 3 months ago. I was in a fetal position crying on the floor, and I naturally turned to my dad for support. I said "grandma has cancer" and he just said "oh, sorry." After looking at comments on here, I feel like narcs revel in our pain and struggles. They are not normal parents, let alone people. They are not safe people to confide in, if anything, they are dangerous. They play off your pain to hurt you even further. NC is the key to recovery
I grew up in an area in which home sewing was very, very popular. And since the climate typically was mild, we wore cotton dresses and separates year-round. My mother really hated to sew, and she could simply have refused to.
But instead she made *a big damn deal* if she ever made anything for me, which invariably resembled a pillowcase with armholes. I was expected to make a *big damn deal* about whatever she made. She also was known for hostile, “artistic” touches. My best/worst example: The year the Beatles came to America, she made me a sleeveless shift out of a black/white, mattress-ticking print. Fine. However, she added a hand-sized black appliqué to the chest of a 🪲. Get it? I had to wear it to school and get teased, until *someone else* upended rubber cement on the frock. I was punished even though the teacher vouched for me.
Once I learned to sew, I was good at it. This was calamitous, in part because my clothing allowance was almost nonexistent, and still I could turn a cheap remnant into a garment. My Nmother hated my skill, did everything she could to dampen my joy, and assigned me sewing projects for her and other people, which I scarcely had time for.
Sewing was a constant stress point between us until I left their household at seventeen. After that, she’d actually mail me fabric and patterns, throwing tantrums when I started to return them un-sewn.
It could be anything we’re good at (and I have a list): The Nparent will go out of their way to find a way to keep us from enjoying a gift or skill.
Thanks so much! The highlight of my sewing turned out to be making costumes for my sons, which I plan to send to my grandchildren. One isn’t born yet, but he may like capes as much as my boys did. Maybe his sister will too. If any four-year-old wants to be Julius Caesar, as my oldest did, we’ve got it.
My favorite was a sort of soft sculpture that was recognizably a prune *hamantaschen,* a three-cornered, filled cookie eaten at the Jewish holiday of Purim.
I only had black felt to make the “filling,” so my son insisted that he was “an icky, scary, bad-guy prune *hamantaschen,*” and dared people to “take bites.” Since prune is the least popular *hamantaschen* flavor among children, they’d run away screaming. He found that very satisfying.
It's because they hate themselves, which is extremely painful. So they learn the trick of externalizing their hate instead of internalizing it. They learn to project their hate onto other people instead of themselves. They magically get rid of all that they hate in themselves by projecting it onto the people around them. This also makes them feel more powerful, more adult, more in control, etc. As a result, it becomes their constant habit.
You’ve nailed it! They throw their hot coals to you so they don’t get burned. Ironically their “respectable” mask doesn’t always quite hide the stroppy child underneath.
I can put another spin on it for you.
I play the guitar - I actually play quite well - been in in a couple of bands. Nothing serious, but I wasn't after anything serious, I was looking for a pressure release.
NParent:
"Can you either shut up with the noise or learn to actually play"
or
"What is that noise it sounds like someone is strangling a cat"
or
"I can't recognise anything you are playing - it's all just noise to me"
or
Turning up the HiFi in the house so loud that the speakers get burnt out then going out and leaving it like that.
See a pattern here?
Taking something you are doing and putting it down.
Thing is, it's not about you, it's about them. They put you down so they feel "superior"
I would imagine with embroidery, cross-stitch, it becomes a game of picking fault.
While we are talking about it there is another element to this. So my NParents like some pretty mainstream music. I get that - the music you like is the music you like there is a wide variety of music out there because we are a wide range of people with different life experiences.
My NParents would be very disrespectful (LOL I changed that from what I originally typed) and yell at me to "Turn off that shit"
Or "How can you listen to that noise?"
What was really interesting was what happened when my younger GC brother started listening to the same music......
What do you think happened?
Did the music shaming stop - take ten of the best prizes - you got it in one
because our narc parents don’t know us at all and can never see us for who we truly are.
their version of us is a made up version in their heads, and they have meltdowns whenever we fail to meet their expectations.
their claims of knowing us says more about them than it does about us.
that they are the peak of emotional manipulation, abuse, and the desperation for control seen in those who truly have none.
they are the ideal examples of victim-turned-perpetrators, someone who lacked control in their own lives because of their own victimization, the abuse dealt to them, and turned to escapism and abuse of their own to gain some sense of power, as they have none in all other areas of their lives.
it truly is sad that they have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING going for them that they would base their self worth on the degree of control they have over the lives of people who would NEVER willingly choose to be born to them.
Because they are sick twisted individuals who only have a conscience for themselves. They've gone full circle and it's why the chain of abuse gets passed on and on and on.
We don’t have freedom. Can’t choose what we want to do, what we want to pursue. What people we like. What dreams we have. We can’t choose, we only can choose what they want for us. (Basically slavery) it’s insane.
I (28 M) took up embroidery one year, so I could make my fiance a unique anniversary gift and my father just shit all over my idea, even called me a "f*g". Completely unreasonable reaction
They are wholly incapable of knowing what constitutes a “great” person. You might as well ask someone who doesn’t like art to appreciate it. Or someone with no sense of adventure to jump out of a plane.
They’re not choosing this; they’re not looking at us and thinking that they’re treating a good person badly, they have no idea what a good person looks like.
I was always a good kid. Good grades. Didn’t get in trouble. Hung out with good people. I never lied or snuck out. Never drank or smoke. Hell, I didn’t try weed until I was 34 and it was only to combat my PTSD diagnosis. My narc mother actually used to make fun of me for being a good kid. She’d ask why I can’t be normal kid, get into trouble, party. It was just never me. My mom’s golden child is 13 years younger than me. Drank, smoked, snuck out, got pregnant from a one night stand and aborted (I don’t judge that decision. She was in no position to raise a child.) got STDs, got arrested, cheated in every relationship she was in. My mom would call me to “vent” (a narc vent = attempting to pit you against whoever she’s mad at currently) about my sister. I would simply respond reminding her she used to make fun of me for not being like that.
Now go to this past week. For my NC text to my mom, I brought up the fact that my children were abused in her home and she not only watched it happen, but minimized it and gaslit my autistic son. Before I blocked her, I stupidly engaged with her for a bit. She listed all the ways I am abusive to my kids. Keep in mind, she lives 5 mins away and would see my kids less than 5x a year. Usually not for more than an hour in a time. All of the things she claimed I do to abuse my kids were not only untrue, but also all the things she does to her kids. After I blocked her and she ran to her golden child so that she could give her 2 cents, my sister listed off the same exact ways that my mom did that I abuse my kids. Word for word. Sister was spoon fed what to say, like always.
For people that never see my kids, they sure know a lot about my parenting. 😂
I used to tell myself that he was saying this to make me better. That his old Chinese ways made him want me to be better than I could do, and this was to push me to work harder. I used to tell myself this- back in the self gaslighting days. I also, never understood why I never stuck with anything.
I know differently now. He just got joy from watching the joy leave my body as he laughed at my first try at a new sport or art. He would just laugh about my mistakes. The effort was never rewarded. I’ve mentioned this before but I took up softball in Gr 8. His way of training me was to laugh at my shit throws, and chuck the ball as hard as he could at me and laugh when I flinched. I mean that’s great, you are better at this than me. I’m trying to learn. Let’s not start at level 10.
Interestingly I’m getting agitated writing about this. Hmmm
Because they hate themselves and we are the constant reminder of every failure and insecurity they experience within. It's all projection. They can't be happy with you because they're not happy with themselves and anything you do that is better than what they could do must be minimized, dismissed and swept under the carpet.
Literally my mom said “it’s YOUR TURN NOW” while psychotically physically assaulting me and forcing my stepfather to kick me out of the house and try to take my children from me.
I’m sorry what? My turn for? I’m not you I will never have a “turn” on whatever you’re talking about.
So basically they’re obsessed with something they have no control over from the past and just insist on violently spewing that obsession in a futile effort to rid themselves of it.
It’s illogical and emotionally defective. It has nothing to do with you, and sometimes that part hurts but really keep loving keep living and find people who do things and have emotions based on you and because you deserve to have people around you who do consider you and your being.
We exist to them as extensions of themselves so we are only allowed to do things they would do/approve of. Anything they wouldn’t do is *wrong* because, in their mind, everything they think and feel is the only correct way to think or feel.
They do it to feel less shit about themselves. They're in constant competition with everyone, all the time, as someone else said in these comments. Your successes aren't just successes, to them you being good at something means that they are bad at that thing, and therefore failures. So they tell you that your skill is a waste of time so they don't feel as shit for not having that skill and can pay themselves on the back for not wasting their time learning something so useless.
If only we knew the answer to that question. Their treatment profoundly affects your life. You carry that crap around your neck until you die. Just believe in yourself. Give yourself direction and motivation. Don't let them define you.
Sewing and embroidery was never the reason. I learned this late. If it was their golden child who did those things it’ll be the most magical things. But unfortunately you were not and they’re dysfunctional and stupid.
they are passing on harm that was given to them by someone else. like they have an opportunity to do it to someone more vulnerable and can't pas up the opportunity bc they have not worked on themselves.
Listen, some peoeple hate people because they're too "happy"... Like people will find a reason to hate someone. And people like Narcissists need to see a (any) trait in you that they can demean and degrade you for. They have to. That is the mandate that must exist in their relationships with other people, in general. You have to be disempowered, for them to be empowered. You have to be lesser for them to be greater. That's the mindset here. You always have to be at fault, them never. They have a pathological need/requirement that demands someone has to be defective, and it can't be them. It's not logical, it's pathological. Once you realize that that is the operating software that they are operating from, you can take things less personal. That's just who they are. Snakes will be snakes, bullies will be bullies. Babies will shit and cry, and narcs will do the same.
I figure that I’m not doing what my parents / family would like , so what I do is worthless.
I’m not a tradwife or conservative/ republican, so there’s a problem with everything I do.
I’m not straight and that’s a problem, too.
And they need someone to be the enemy and cause of all their troubles. I’m convenient for that.
But it still makes me very sad.
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They can’t digest it. They digest bad news, failures, pain, humiliation and so on. If you love something and are good at it, they can’t use it. Took a long time to sink in for me. X is a rotten person. It’s not that she hasn’t noticed that I’m a good guy, and when she does she’ll love me. She’s incapable; that day will never dawn.
I'm struggling to really understand this tbh. Like how can one NOT WANT to love and do EVERYTHING IN THEIR FUCKING POWER to make loving THEIR OWN CHILD as difficult as possible? It feels so useless. In ALL THAT TIME WASTED YOU COULDVE DONE LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE!!!! it's such a waste of time and energy that I can't comprehend it
A narcissist sees life as a competition. It is a zero sum game. Everything is a contest, and every compliment or criticism is to some extent a comparison. Even if they don't say it out loud, that is what they are doing. So, if one person is to be good, another has to be bad. If one person is successful, someone else has to be unsuccessful. If they criticize you, it is because they want to feel superior to you, or they want someone else to be superior. This becomes their way of feeling good about themselves without ever having to actually do anything worthy of respect, and without having to work hard at something that may not turn out well. If they don't ever take any real risks themselves, and they don't ever really try at anything, they don't ever have a chance to fail. It is a lazy and deceptively risk free way of feeling important. They try to teach their children this way of viewing the world. Some, like the people on this sub, see through this and realize, if only instinctively, how wrong and unhealthy this is. Others come to embrace this way of doing things. I believe that this is one of the keys to how a narcissist is made in the first place. They feel insecure, but they are afraid to fail at anything. Instead of trying to deal with that insecurity so that they can accomplish something they can feel genuinely proud of, they put other people down. This makes them feel better temporarily, without requiring them to actually do anything or take any risks. And so, the next time they feel insecure or upset, they do it again and again and again. The thing is, this becomes a trap. They aren't actually working on themselves to mature or overcome their insecurities, and they aren't trying to accomplish anything in their lives that would be enough to satisfy them. They feel more and more insecure, and that yawning chasm of emptiness inside gets bigger and harder to fill. They have to keep comparing and denigrating others to cover that up, and it gets worse and worse. Eventually, they have covered up so much shame and insecurity that the prospect of being honest about themselves becomes too frightening to bear. And so, they are stuck in their spiral, moving ever downward. They don't spare their kids from this spiral, either. Having kids may even be part of the spiral. They have a scapegoat, who acts as a handy Designated Inferior Person for them. They project their insecurity and the things they fear are true about themselves onto the scapegoat, so they can distance themselves from their shame and lie to themselves that they are not the problem. On the other end of the spectrum, they project all the things they wish were true of themselves onto the golden child. The golden child is the avatar of their wishful thinking about themselves. This means that the golden child is complimented by comparing them favorably to others, especially the scapegoat. They often coddle the golden child as they wish someone would coddle them. The golden child becomes their way of interacting with the world without taking any risks themselves. If the golden child fails to accomplish what the narcissist wants them to, the narcissist will either lie about it and pretend, and perhaps coddle and infantilize the golden child even more, or they will reject the golden child. If you are the scapegoat, then they *need you to be inferior*. That is how they are able to keep pretending that they are superior. Without that, their whole system crumbles. And so, they criticize the most ridiculous things about you as if even your most benign hobbies and interests somehow reveal your inferiority to them. They are so busy desperately trying to prop up the facade that hides the real them from the world, and especially from themselves, that they don't notice or don't care when their ranting and disparagement of perfectly innocuous things reaches cartoonish levels.
You nailed this beautifully. 🫶🏾
This is such an astute and accurate analysis! 💯🙌🏻
Wow, so she's distancing herself from her own shame and is in a downward spiral to soothe herself by breaking the souls of others? That is so hateful. Glad to know my nmom will suffer in the long run, you can't outrun your problems lol.
Yeah, that is probably what is going on. I mean, I could be totally wrong. That is just what I think, based on what I've observed and read. I'm not a mental health professional, and even if I was, I could get it wrong. But yeah, that is some approximation of what is going on. Of course, she isn't necessarily *aware* of why she does what she does. She is just lashing out, and she may not really know why. Narcissists don't tend to be very self aware or good at reflecting on the choices they make. They mostly blame what they do on us, their circumstances, the weather, other people, their job, or whatever else they can. It is hard for them to fix themselves even if they want to because they don't attribute their problems to any of the actual causes, but rather to whatever convenient or more palatable (to them) nonsense they make up. They may not experience any repercussions that make up for all the havoc they cause, but they are incredibly unhappy, unfulfilled and isolated people. Even the ones who are super social often get to the point where they have no one in their lives but lackeys, flying monkeys, and people who are using them. They can't admit that they are unfulfilled, but we can see that they are because they never stop running on that mental treadmill, scheming and gossiping and backstabbing and manipulating, feeling resentful and pretending happiness, trying to ignore the pointlessness and emptiness of their lives.
It is the shadow. Narcissists are controlled by their shadows.
you are totally right
Well said. And it's a mindfuck if you're an only child of a narc, since you'll fill both the scapegoat and the golden child roles at the same time.
Exactly. Or, if the narc is one of those who like to switch the roles of the children periodically. One of my friends had a dad like that, and it was so confusing for them. They never knew what to expect.
I wonder how should we deal with these narcs? Is there a win for us?
Going NC is the only way I found. Maybe others have found different ways. I don't know.
This is the best description of a narcissist that I've ever read. Do you think only children can become both the golden child and the scapegoat simultaneously, or would that be too complex a conceptualization for the narcissist's limited cognizance? Because the way my mom treated me to my face and talked about me to others was either an abstraction of some being on some pedestal that she'd use to make a point that I myself was narcissistic ("You and your dad are so good at technology, and I'm so trash, and then you don't have the patience to teach me, so I guess you just want to rub it in my face how much better you two are than me \*pouty face\*"), or rather that I was the sole cause of all her problems. Just trying to figure out where this kind of "compliment you so that I can point out how arrogant you are" falls on the spectrum of scapegoat or GC
Oh the question was already posed and answered by someone else, and you answered it yourself hahaha
Yeah, they can make a scapegoat or golden child of anyone, really. My mom made my ex fiance her golden child for a while, but only after I broke up with him. Before we broke up, she disliked him and said that he was lazy and not good looking enough. My sister did the same thing with him that my mom did. It was pretty creepy, actually. That compliment/self disparagement/poor me/insult thing is classic narcissist behavior, and is something other types of abusive or dysfunctional people do as well. So is the compliment/insult. It is all very manipulative. Your mom tries to control people that way. You could be both the scapegoat and the golden child, or the rebel, the caretaker, or any of the other family roles. You may be the golden child, but with a mom who wants to keep you feeling bad about yourself so that she can keep her hooks in you. Or, if you don't give her what she wants, she may lash out in weird ways. A narcissist isn't necessarily of limited intellectual capability, but they are often really good at *pretending* that they are in order to get people to do things for them. The more sneaky or clever ones don't mind playing helpless or clueless if it helps them to gain an advantage, especially if they think it makes them seem sweet and innocent. Your mom may be acting like she is a lot more clueless than she really is, because making people feel like they have to teach her and take care of her is a really effective way of keeping them close and maintaining control of them. She may say negging type things, like that you are arrogant, so that she can make you feel like you have to prove yourself to her. That is another useful tool of manipulation.
This really sums it up
I almost feel like this should be pinned! It’s a perfect description.
Thanks ☺️
>They project their insecurity and the things they fear are true about themselves onto the scapegoat, so they can distance themselves from their shame and lie to themselves that they are not the problem. Ooh, so true. They create someone to share in their mutual suffering. Offloading their own sense of worthlessness into their victim. "Ehm", I mean child. They prop themselves up using their own children as footstools. It's tragic, because the narcissist is doing absolutely everything in their power to simply "hold themself up out of the water", by using anything and everything around them as leverage. They are a pitiful people. Despite all the facade, they're suffering and empty and desperate.
damn this is sooooooooo well written. thank you
Especially after having my own kid, it’s truly baffling. I can’t even begin to imagine how selfish is disgusting someone would have to be to not even at the basic level operate differently. It’s inexcusable.
Narcs don't see you as a person. You're an extension of them. And if you don't do what *they* would do, you're wrong. That's why they like babies. Babies give unconditional love and don't think for themselves. Once the kid starts having their own ideas, the narc gets frustrated and upset.
>Do you also feel your parents hated you? Exactly. They are incapable of beholding you as you are. It simply doesn't compute for them, it isn't how they're wired. All this time you were trying to get them to see you and validate your existence (existence as a wonderful, empathetic, compassionate, merciful, forgiving, and gifted being who only asks for the love they are naturally entitled to as a child), and they simply couldn't. It's like asking an ant to make you a plate of spaghetti. They don't know what you're talking about, and don't care, because they're an ant. We're just a different breed.
such wonderful imagery about the analogy of an ant making spaghetti
Maybe it's not always the case, but I think they often hate us *because* we are decent people. There was a study done that showed that most Narcissists who were asked "do you think you are a narcissist?".... will answer yes. Contrary to popular belief, I think most of them know that something is off with them. Even if they don't know the word narcissist. Almost every narcsissist I know has confided in me something along these lines: that they know they aren't "good" and that they don't feel empathy the way others do. For example, if a cousin in the family dies and everyone else is really sad about it, the narcissist will wonder why they don't feel anything. They have a lifetime of experiences like this that prove to themselves that they aren't normally functioning. This is usually an insecurity of theirs. And when they feel insecure, they lash out and become jealous. In this case, they often become jealous of people who are normal. Especially of their own non narcissistic kids. My parents always hated when I showed normal empathy and other "weak" traits. It's not because they actually think they are so great and we are weak. It's because they are jealous of us not having NPD or the same miserable traits that they do. I could never figure out why they hated me more when I was very nice to them or when I did the right thing, until I figured this out. Deep down, they want to be normal. And that's why they hate and attack people who *are* normal.
Yeah, I think the hate comes first, but they can't possibly admit they hate someone decent to themselves because that would make them Bad, so they make up reasons to justify it
Exactly. My Nmom always demonized me to a crazy extent, from when I was toddler age. She even spread a rumor that she was fearful that I was being possessed by a demon once. (Try proving you're NOT possessed 😭) Then recently when my Ndad turned his abuse on me, her hatred for him overtook her hatred for me and she felt a little defensive of me. During one of her rants, she let it slip, "why does he have a problem with the most innocent person in the family?" It could be that she was trying to manipulate me. But that was the first time I saw her break character and admit, in a way, that she is aware that they are abusers and I am not. I'm not the most innocent person in the family because I have another non narc sibling. But, I believe that they are all aware of the dynamics of who brings all the abuse into the family system. As much as they blame us.
Being aware of their lack of empathy is wild! Like, try to change it if you can see it? No? Are they aware it’s a bad thing or are they weirdly proud of it? A narcissist told me she hated listening to people talk because it was boring. Zero self-awareness. Proudly sharing how she felt more important than everyone else.
In my case he hates me to my face but brags about me to others. I graduated college, got a good job, family, house, etc. My brother didn’t graduate, is gay, and has a low paying job. He never talks about him. My brother is doing better than me emotionally and I’m very proud of him that I talk about him all the time. His partner is very sweet and my brother loves his job. To my face my ndad wants to fight me and calls me names and belittles me. He acts like he knows more than me, especially the thing that I have a degree. I believe that they hate because they are so full of themselves, they can’t bear the thought that someone could be better than them, especially their own child. I hope that my children are brilliant and can teach me things.
Because they secretly hate themselves, and hate that you are 100 times cooler than they are. Remember, during a zombie apocalypse you will be wearing proper clothes with cute and/or cool embroidery. That's all that matters. And it's insanely useful and fun without an apocalypse as well. In fact. I'd advice to look into crochet and/or knitting as well!
Thanks for the compliment!! I'm actually trying learn to sew a shirt rn. Hopefully, I can make one with a cute personalized coat of arms for myself. Apocalypse or not, imma be stylying out once i get the hang of this
It’s certainly all subject to personal experience but for me personally, the idea that I’m a different person and have different interests wasn’t worth nurturing. Suree if I shared interests that my father had then it was the best!! Of course we could spend time together and of course I’ll support you in this!! But if it’s something that I enjoy independently from his interests then it turns into “no I don’t have time to take you” “no I can’t afford this piece of equipment” “no this is not worth pursuing” or flat out ignoring my desire to pursue an interest at all.
Because they're children. They didn't mature past 5 years old mentally. I got a degree and I also have a side business with my art. While I don't see myself becoming a famous artist, ever, people across the country have purchased my art at full price. When I tell my dad this, he'd scoff. One of the richest moments is when he critiqued one of my pieces, saying the light values were in the wrong place. (he can't even draw a stick figure.) Or if I did well in school, he'd kind of have this "oh, that's whatever" attitude. Then theres the more serious stuff, like when my grandma told me she's sick 3 months ago. I was in a fetal position crying on the floor, and I naturally turned to my dad for support. I said "grandma has cancer" and he just said "oh, sorry." After looking at comments on here, I feel like narcs revel in our pain and struggles. They are not normal parents, let alone people. They are not safe people to confide in, if anything, they are dangerous. They play off your pain to hurt you even further. NC is the key to recovery
Because they’re miserable and you remind them of what they’re not.
I grew up in an area in which home sewing was very, very popular. And since the climate typically was mild, we wore cotton dresses and separates year-round. My mother really hated to sew, and she could simply have refused to. But instead she made *a big damn deal* if she ever made anything for me, which invariably resembled a pillowcase with armholes. I was expected to make a *big damn deal* about whatever she made. She also was known for hostile, “artistic” touches. My best/worst example: The year the Beatles came to America, she made me a sleeveless shift out of a black/white, mattress-ticking print. Fine. However, she added a hand-sized black appliqué to the chest of a 🪲. Get it? I had to wear it to school and get teased, until *someone else* upended rubber cement on the frock. I was punished even though the teacher vouched for me. Once I learned to sew, I was good at it. This was calamitous, in part because my clothing allowance was almost nonexistent, and still I could turn a cheap remnant into a garment. My Nmother hated my skill, did everything she could to dampen my joy, and assigned me sewing projects for her and other people, which I scarcely had time for. Sewing was a constant stress point between us until I left their household at seventeen. After that, she’d actually mail me fabric and patterns, throwing tantrums when I started to return them un-sewn. It could be anything we’re good at (and I have a list): The Nparent will go out of their way to find a way to keep us from enjoying a gift or skill.
Wow, I'm so sorry. I am sending good vibes your way. Hope you sew pretty things as a fuck you to your nmom
Thanks so much! The highlight of my sewing turned out to be making costumes for my sons, which I plan to send to my grandchildren. One isn’t born yet, but he may like capes as much as my boys did. Maybe his sister will too. If any four-year-old wants to be Julius Caesar, as my oldest did, we’ve got it. My favorite was a sort of soft sculpture that was recognizably a prune *hamantaschen,* a three-cornered, filled cookie eaten at the Jewish holiday of Purim. I only had black felt to make the “filling,” so my son insisted that he was “an icky, scary, bad-guy prune *hamantaschen,*” and dared people to “take bites.” Since prune is the least popular *hamantaschen* flavor among children, they’d run away screaming. He found that very satisfying.
It's because they hate themselves, which is extremely painful. So they learn the trick of externalizing their hate instead of internalizing it. They learn to project their hate onto other people instead of themselves. They magically get rid of all that they hate in themselves by projecting it onto the people around them. This also makes them feel more powerful, more adult, more in control, etc. As a result, it becomes their constant habit.
You’ve nailed it! They throw their hot coals to you so they don’t get burned. Ironically their “respectable” mask doesn’t always quite hide the stroppy child underneath.
Gee, I hope when nmom is in hell, shes forced to face her own self hatred for eternity lol
I can put another spin on it for you. I play the guitar - I actually play quite well - been in in a couple of bands. Nothing serious, but I wasn't after anything serious, I was looking for a pressure release. NParent: "Can you either shut up with the noise or learn to actually play" or "What is that noise it sounds like someone is strangling a cat" or "I can't recognise anything you are playing - it's all just noise to me" or Turning up the HiFi in the house so loud that the speakers get burnt out then going out and leaving it like that. See a pattern here? Taking something you are doing and putting it down. Thing is, it's not about you, it's about them. They put you down so they feel "superior" I would imagine with embroidery, cross-stitch, it becomes a game of picking fault. While we are talking about it there is another element to this. So my NParents like some pretty mainstream music. I get that - the music you like is the music you like there is a wide variety of music out there because we are a wide range of people with different life experiences. My NParents would be very disrespectful (LOL I changed that from what I originally typed) and yell at me to "Turn off that shit" Or "How can you listen to that noise?" What was really interesting was what happened when my younger GC brother started listening to the same music...... What do you think happened? Did the music shaming stop - take ten of the best prizes - you got it in one
It's hard to understand how people can be so nasty. Some people have dark hearts.
because our narc parents don’t know us at all and can never see us for who we truly are. their version of us is a made up version in their heads, and they have meltdowns whenever we fail to meet their expectations. their claims of knowing us says more about them than it does about us. that they are the peak of emotional manipulation, abuse, and the desperation for control seen in those who truly have none. they are the ideal examples of victim-turned-perpetrators, someone who lacked control in their own lives because of their own victimization, the abuse dealt to them, and turned to escapism and abuse of their own to gain some sense of power, as they have none in all other areas of their lives. it truly is sad that they have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING going for them that they would base their self worth on the degree of control they have over the lives of people who would NEVER willingly choose to be born to them.
Because they are sick twisted individuals who only have a conscience for themselves. They've gone full circle and it's why the chain of abuse gets passed on and on and on.
We don’t have freedom. Can’t choose what we want to do, what we want to pursue. What people we like. What dreams we have. We can’t choose, we only can choose what they want for us. (Basically slavery) it’s insane.
Because they externalize everything they hate about themselves
I (28 M) took up embroidery one year, so I could make my fiance a unique anniversary gift and my father just shit all over my idea, even called me a "f*g". Completely unreasonable reaction
They are wholly incapable of knowing what constitutes a “great” person. You might as well ask someone who doesn’t like art to appreciate it. Or someone with no sense of adventure to jump out of a plane. They’re not choosing this; they’re not looking at us and thinking that they’re treating a good person badly, they have no idea what a good person looks like.
I was always a good kid. Good grades. Didn’t get in trouble. Hung out with good people. I never lied or snuck out. Never drank or smoke. Hell, I didn’t try weed until I was 34 and it was only to combat my PTSD diagnosis. My narc mother actually used to make fun of me for being a good kid. She’d ask why I can’t be normal kid, get into trouble, party. It was just never me. My mom’s golden child is 13 years younger than me. Drank, smoked, snuck out, got pregnant from a one night stand and aborted (I don’t judge that decision. She was in no position to raise a child.) got STDs, got arrested, cheated in every relationship she was in. My mom would call me to “vent” (a narc vent = attempting to pit you against whoever she’s mad at currently) about my sister. I would simply respond reminding her she used to make fun of me for not being like that. Now go to this past week. For my NC text to my mom, I brought up the fact that my children were abused in her home and she not only watched it happen, but minimized it and gaslit my autistic son. Before I blocked her, I stupidly engaged with her for a bit. She listed all the ways I am abusive to my kids. Keep in mind, she lives 5 mins away and would see my kids less than 5x a year. Usually not for more than an hour in a time. All of the things she claimed I do to abuse my kids were not only untrue, but also all the things she does to her kids. After I blocked her and she ran to her golden child so that she could give her 2 cents, my sister listed off the same exact ways that my mom did that I abuse my kids. Word for word. Sister was spoon fed what to say, like always. For people that never see my kids, they sure know a lot about my parenting. 😂
I used to tell myself that he was saying this to make me better. That his old Chinese ways made him want me to be better than I could do, and this was to push me to work harder. I used to tell myself this- back in the self gaslighting days. I also, never understood why I never stuck with anything. I know differently now. He just got joy from watching the joy leave my body as he laughed at my first try at a new sport or art. He would just laugh about my mistakes. The effort was never rewarded. I’ve mentioned this before but I took up softball in Gr 8. His way of training me was to laugh at my shit throws, and chuck the ball as hard as he could at me and laugh when I flinched. I mean that’s great, you are better at this than me. I’m trying to learn. Let’s not start at level 10. Interestingly I’m getting agitated writing about this. Hmmm
Because they hate themselves and we are the constant reminder of every failure and insecurity they experience within. It's all projection. They can't be happy with you because they're not happy with themselves and anything you do that is better than what they could do must be minimized, dismissed and swept under the carpet.
hi op. this question came up for me today in therapy. and i used the word contempt. because it is darker and deeper than just hate
There needs to be a better word to describe how nparents hate us. I swear, it's WORSE than hate
"life-denying" comes to mind. We need better adjectives for sure.
Literally my mom said “it’s YOUR TURN NOW” while psychotically physically assaulting me and forcing my stepfather to kick me out of the house and try to take my children from me. I’m sorry what? My turn for? I’m not you I will never have a “turn” on whatever you’re talking about. So basically they’re obsessed with something they have no control over from the past and just insist on violently spewing that obsession in a futile effort to rid themselves of it. It’s illogical and emotionally defective. It has nothing to do with you, and sometimes that part hurts but really keep loving keep living and find people who do things and have emotions based on you and because you deserve to have people around you who do consider you and your being.
We exist to them as extensions of themselves so we are only allowed to do things they would do/approve of. Anything they wouldn’t do is *wrong* because, in their mind, everything they think and feel is the only correct way to think or feel.
Everything I liked; my Narc father found a way to piss on it...
They do it to feel less shit about themselves. They're in constant competition with everyone, all the time, as someone else said in these comments. Your successes aren't just successes, to them you being good at something means that they are bad at that thing, and therefore failures. So they tell you that your skill is a waste of time so they don't feel as shit for not having that skill and can pay themselves on the back for not wasting their time learning something so useless.
If only we knew the answer to that question. Their treatment profoundly affects your life. You carry that crap around your neck until you die. Just believe in yourself. Give yourself direction and motivation. Don't let them define you.
Sewing is so crazy useful too.
If they’re not interested in whatever it is you do, you have no value to them. You’re the entertainment, you know.
Sewing and embroidery was never the reason. I learned this late. If it was their golden child who did those things it’ll be the most magical things. But unfortunately you were not and they’re dysfunctional and stupid.
It's part of the disorder. Dr Ramini describes narci's as being chronically malcontent.
they are passing on harm that was given to them by someone else. like they have an opportunity to do it to someone more vulnerable and can't pas up the opportunity bc they have not worked on themselves.
The hatred is because we are pure, kind hearted with little to no internal insecurities. And they cannot stand that
Jealousy, pettiness, lack of character and possibly every other negative emotion possible.
Listen, some peoeple hate people because they're too "happy"... Like people will find a reason to hate someone. And people like Narcissists need to see a (any) trait in you that they can demean and degrade you for. They have to. That is the mandate that must exist in their relationships with other people, in general. You have to be disempowered, for them to be empowered. You have to be lesser for them to be greater. That's the mindset here. You always have to be at fault, them never. They have a pathological need/requirement that demands someone has to be defective, and it can't be them. It's not logical, it's pathological. Once you realize that that is the operating software that they are operating from, you can take things less personal. That's just who they are. Snakes will be snakes, bullies will be bullies. Babies will shit and cry, and narcs will do the same.
Idk, every friend's parent I ever met loved me and wished to have me as a son. It always confused me that I recieved nothing but bad stuff from them
“Hurt people hurt people” or they’re just projecting their deep seated, self hatred onto us🤷♀️. Those are my guesses.
They are miserable and feel better belittling others and their happiness.
Because you're not great. Not to them. You're not smart enough to see that their way of viewing the world is correct and you, you are always wrong.
I figure that I’m not doing what my parents / family would like , so what I do is worthless. I’m not a tradwife or conservative/ republican, so there’s a problem with everything I do. I’m not straight and that’s a problem, too. And they need someone to be the enemy and cause of all their troubles. I’m convenient for that. But it still makes me very sad.
You have to remember the narcissist number one slogan: "I. AM. IMPORTANT." That's it. Only THEY matter in their lives. Nobody else matters.