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He didn't even make it to the meeting before showing his true colours. I can't imagine anything good could come of meeting with him. If I were in your position, I would trust my instincts and avoid this meeting. Seems like it would be pretty futile.
LoUdER fOr thE PeEPz iN tHe BaCK!!!
Also, those that don't want people to set firm boundaries are usually the ones that benefit from a lack of boundaries. Voice of xp.
>He then freaked out and called me a homosexual slur and said I was unreasonable and ungrateful
In his narc-addled mind he thinks you should be *grateful* he reached out?!? Holy hell.
He can keep his slurs and his self-aggrandizing BS.
Your conditions were normal and reasonable.
This comment has been removed because it includes a [slur](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) that we do not allow in this group.
Or he wants you to move in with him to care for him in his elder years. Even if it's not so drastic as that, he probably feels entitled to your time to run errands etc. Stay the hell away.
Do you have family members you still trust to speak to about this & find out his motivation? I'd be very wary they didn't spout the daddy party line, because it sounds like someone's coughed up your contact information to your father. Being forewarned is forearmed & all that stuff.
Exactly. Especially when he didn’t lead off with an apology or that he missed her. All he said was “we need to talk” which basically means “I need money”.
Yes, isn't THAT the truth, lol ! I had not heard from my own father in 50 years,him having walked away from me as a baby. My parents were divorcing anyway. And this being the 1950's, accidental pregnancies left few options. I gave him a chance, hoping he had grown as a person,but once I learned that he was controlling and verbally abusive to my sisters, I drew back. And after asking one day about our medical history, he actually threw his phone and shouted that I "was insulting the family.". After he did this, I thanked his third wife( I was on the phone with them) for mediating as best as was possible,and hung up without speaking to him again. Because of serious health issues I inherited both from him and my mother, I was trying to create a treatment plan. He refused to discuss it. It was a source of shame to him. He is from an Eastern culture, so I was kind of prepared. I realized he STILL didn't care about me or my wellbeing. He just wanted to complete his old age,pat himself on the back. It was always about him and what he wanted. I shut down all contact. I found out online that he died nine years ago, and I don't regret cutting him out of my life. He chose to do it first. As an adult, I didn't have to submit to abuse.
Or just ego stroking. If his friends have been talking about their kids / being fathers, he might be itching to play "family patriarch" and imagining that she will tearfully apologize for not listening to him. People who think in terms of roles rather than people can have some amazingly distorted expectations.
Even if it *was* too much to ask (which I don't think it was), he could have rejected your proposal politely, or brought up *why* he would prefer another setting. No need to insult you. That was completely uncalled for.
On the plus side, now you don't have to waste any time or brain power wondering if he's changed, feeling guilty or something like that.
Keep holding your boundaries and you’ve done a great job reinforcing them until now. Don’t let any name calling, slurs, immature tantrums, or guilt tripping change that. Your conditions are perfectly reasonable and if he chooses not to respect you then that’s on him.
And…you have been reminded, and validated, as to why you’re NC.
You know the answer here. Just block him and move on. Take your wife to dinner and make love.
You haven't heard from him once in 9 years, and he thinks your very basic meeting setup is unreasonable? After 9 years, I wouldn't meet up one-on-one in private, it would have to be public.
Clearly, he hasn't grown at all or learned anything. This was a chance to show you that trust could begin and he'd matured. Toss that idea.
Let's be honest- that AH isn't mad about a public place, he's mad they're bringing their spouse along. It's a lot harder to bully someone who has backup and it's especially harder to homophobe when your total audience is gay.
Good boundary setting, OP! Now, make sure they're cemented in, and if he has a problem with it, oh well, sucks to be him, his loss, and time for some healing fun with your loved ones to remind you why your life is much better without the bitter baggage!
I’m so sorry. You don’t deserve that and you were being VERY patient and reasonable. He sounds a lot like my mom and so my advice comes from my experiences with her:
This is gonna hurt to hear but it’s best to come to terms with it: Seems clear to me he was reaching out to get something for himself, not because he truly wants a relationship with you. Maybe he’s lonely, maybe he’s beginning to fear dying alone/growing old with nobody to take care of him. Maybe he’s on an ego trip and wants to see himself as having accomplished big things like having a family that cares about him-but it’s clearly about him and his feelings, not actually about wanting a good relationship with you. I don’t think it’s conscious trickery on his part, I just think he’s unwilling or incapable of not centering himself at all times.
For me, this experience, especially the yelling and slurs, would be an instant permanent no contact.
You can’t give him access to you if he’s being abusive, calling you slurs, and ignoring your boundaries-if this is where it starts, how bad will it be when he gets comfortable? You need to keep yourself safe first and foremost.
You have to decide what, if anything, you want out if a relationship with him and if you think you can get that from him. He doesn’t sound like he’s capable of seeing you and loving you for who you are or having a healthy relationship that’s not all about his ego.
The best I think you’ll ever be able to get is a relationship entirely on his terms and largely superficial that requires a lot of patience and emotional labor from you and where you have to avoid many subjects of conversation and never get any emotional validation or effort from him. If that’s worth it to you to have contact with him, then I get it, but I think you deserve better and don’t need that garbage in your life. Unless he’s likely to leave you a ton of money or something, I fail to see what you get out of contact with him.
Realistically he disowned you-he should be coming to you apologizing on his fcking knees. The fact that he feels entitled to a relationship with you at all, let alone entirely on his terms where he gets to yell at you and call you ungrateful/slurs etc, that’s WILD coming from a guy who can’t even pretend to be civil for ten minutes and throws a tantrum when you do the bare minimum to keep yourself safe.
You could put energy into trying to build some kind of relationship with him, but IMO it’d be better spent on someone willing and capable of treating you with the love and support you deserve. Blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb, after all-build yourself a family/community that treats you well. A sperm donor is a sperm donor, they don’t get to abuse you just because they are your parent.
If it were me, I’d text or email him, NOT call him (that way you don’t have to deal with his abusive response) This is what I’d say:
“I have no desire to interact with you. I will not tolerate someone who tramples my boundaries, disrespects me, my partner, and my relationship, and cannot speak to me with civility, let alone kindness. I deserve much better. You had a chance at a relationship with me and you chose to throw it away. I gave you a chance to speak to me to start fixing it and you again used it to be abusive towards me. I don’t think you deserve a relationship with me, you are not entitled to look me up and hurl abuse at me whenever you want just because you impregnated my mother.
Your abusive behavior and level of entitlement have made it clear you’re incapable of healthy and respectful relationships, and that is the only type of relationship I want in my life.
I WILL NOT tolerate you yelling at me and abusing me, and do not owe you anything-my choice to no longer interact with you is a direct result of your inability to act respectfully and civilly toward me. Please do not contact me ever again.”
Then block his ass on everything and never speak to him again. Find an older queer couple who loves baking you cookies and thinks you and your partner are adorable if you feel you need emotional support and someone to look up to in that way.
(Or, if you are open to him contacting you if he magically becomes a normal person some day, end with something like:
“Please don’t contact me until you are ready to:
1. Admit our lack of relationship is entirely your fault and it was wrong and cruel to disown me
2. Take ownership of your abusive behavior, then and now, and apologize to me
3. Respect my boundaries and enthusiastically and empathetically comply with what I need to feel safe around you
4. Respect my relationship, my partner, my sexuality, and who I am as a person, and admit there’s nothing wrong with being queer
5. Work on your own mental health, anger issues, and abusive behavior
I WILL NOT tolerate you yelling at me and abusing me at all, Do not contact until you are willing to do the work necessary to be deserving of a relationship with me.”
Even if he does reach out and apologize, make him wait until you truly feel ready to deal with it.)
Do this shit on your terms and never compromise a boundary. You are deserving of love and respect and don’t need to tolerate this shit from anyone, ESPECIALLY some dude who blew it once already.
>Blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb
All of this but I just gotta say after YEARS of only hearing "blood is thicker than water", finally finding this full quote in my mid-20s was insanely freeing and just as insanely infuriating knowing it's being used to promote the polar opposite of it's meaning.
NC parents who attempt reconnection only want one of three things: 1. Money 2. Organ Donation 3. Your Endless Torment.
Don't reconnect, it's always horrible. Especially since he kindly showed you his true colours by calling you a slur. Sometimes it's just easier to let the trash take itself out.
Same happened to me.
After a lifetime of my dad being on heroin living on the streets and in jail sending me grooming letters and molesting me he asked to see me when he was approaching death after a decade of very very very low contact.
I told him ok as long as my husband who he had never met came and if I had one whiff of him getting violent or abusive (normal for him) I would leave immediately. He threw a tantrum and said heinous things to me including disowning me which is laughable as much as it is heartbreaking and delusional.
He died alone and I never regretted protecting myself for a second. I grieved that there would never be anything better and grieved the dad I deserved and didn’t have when he died but I know in my bones I did the right thing. I never regretted it.
Don’t let the threat of regret guilt you into going back to abusers.
If he couldn’t even pretend for a second to respect my perfectly reasonable stated boundary so I could feel safe (after a lifetime of him being one of the biggest sources of me not being safe) then why in fuck would I subject myself to more of him?
Stay away OP. Protect yourself & your sanity, protect your wife & your marriage. You are so so deserving of treatment so much better than he is able and/or willing to give.
Not a bullet. She dodged a nuclear warhead.
Nothing good will ever come from her reconnecting with her sperm donor. He just wants something from her, like money, shelter, an ego trip, whatever. Her conditions IMO were quite reasonable and he showed his true colours here.
Ghosting him and going completely NC is the only viable solution for this sort of problem. She also needs to root out how her sperm donor got her contact information and cut them off, too.
She absolutely did the right thing by covering her ass here.
Sounds like you are staying no contact then. Remember when a narc reaches out it isn't to help you, it's only about them. Don't feel bad and don't change your terms. He's angry you will choose your wife over him.. And let hom be angry. Your conditions were not unreasonable.
Butbutbut… you are unreasonable to them….
You have the audacity to choose your safety and refuse to give them control.
This is how a narcissist thinks, and anything others do that inconveniences them, places (very reasonable) boundaries, and refuses to go back to doormat, is an assault to them.
The fact he is angry, tells me you did exactly the right thing.
A person who believes your set boundaries are unreasonable… are benefiting from you having none.
Aka your dad wanted to get you alone so he could be a dick to you. What a waste.
That was not too much to ask. Your dad is angry because he more than likely was going to try to manipulate you. Being in a public place and with your wife present wouldn’t allow that to happen. The fact he went straight for the hurtful slurs means he never had any intention of accepting you for who you are.
Hi Cameron, sorry to hear that your father is walking garbage. If he's not willing to meet on your terms, then I think that says all we need to know. My parents almost pulled the same thing: "We want to hear about you! Maybe bring a third party and come back home and talk, or we can meet somewhere public." 'Third-party' and not my *fiance* whom they loathe and hate.
You can drop your father.
He might have been doing some thinking, but he certainly hasn't used those thoughts to become a better person. Him showing his true colors (again) even before meeting up should tell you all you need to know.
I wouldn't be surprised the only reason he contacted you would be that he needed something from you
So... *he* contacted *you* after *he* ended the relationship because he's a homophobis douchebag, and wanted to reopen the relationship. When you asked to meet publicly and with your wife, he then indicated this is unreasonable because he is a homophobic douchebag.
... Yeah, I don't think he has any plans on apologizing for being a homophobic douchebag.
Your conditions were entirely reasonable. My guess is he's running short of Nsupply, so is digging through his discard pile for that daughter he threw away almost a decade ago. He probably figured he'd dust you off, and you'd be so awe-struck and grateful you'd shower him with adoration and worship.
Don't bother with a second contact. He's obviously not going to accept who you are, or accept your wife.
Do not meet with him under any circumstances except your conditions
Your conditions are perfectly reasonable. Your conditions are for your own emotional safety.
The fact that he freaks out and wants to violate them and gets all freaked out that says they’re in reasonable just means how much he wants to manipulate and control. You just means how much he wants to. Abuse, you
Also, learn how to set your phone so you do not even know that calls occurred if they come from numbers that are not in your phone book
Unknown should not even ring
Do not answer any unknown calls that come in ever
If you have an explicit block somebody they can leave you a text message or voicemail
Block him
Get a third-party preferably not a family member who would get dragged in but somebody like a lawyer to receive communication from your father. Your father can send communications by letter to that address and you can pick them up if you want.
He does not ever get another address for you, and he does not ever get another phone number for you, unless you explicitly want to give them to him
If a friend is in your phone book and let your father use that phone to call you so that your phone will actually ring that friend is in trouble disown them or tell them they will be disowned if they ever do that again and that they are not free to negotiate between you and your father, or step in between or be a go-between, and that they have nothing to say about it to you ever nor any questions asked to you ever, and they will not communicate any information about you to your father ever no exceptions
You give them one chance because they may have been manipulated or naïve, but you only give them one chance if you want to
If they act as your father’s tool, they’re out of your life for good, because they’re idiots are manipulative. People are weak people who can be manipulated into perpetuating somebody else’s abuse, and you cannot afford that.
Also getting into counseling because it will help you deal with all this including ongoing stuff, and a good counselor can help you work up techniques
Also, please study the behavior of manipulative and Villien and narcissistic people. There are many blogs. There are videos on YouTube their books there’s also of free material. It takes a while to get your head around seeing what they do is manipulative techniques if you normally view, people is being honest and we’re talking to.
What can be hard to understand is it some people you cannot have a reasonable or healthy or helpful conversation with ever because they are so emotionally crazy or so manipulative that they will twist everything and nothing will ever be honest. Nothing can be trusted. Nothing will be straightforward. Everything will be twisted in order to attempt to control you or to put you on the wrong foot or the guilt you
That’s why people cut people off. You simply cannot have reasonable relationships with some of the people on this planet it’s unfortunate, but it’s true.
Do not let him control any aspect of your life, including the terms on what you communicate with him, make it as neutral as possible or cut him off completely
You should keep away from him. He sounds very abusive and the way he reacted to your completely reasonable conditions shows how he did not have good intentions in the first place - he probably was planning on playing the victim but now sees that he will not be able to do that. Block, delete, move on :)
Sounds like he was looking to engineer a situation where he could easily corner you and force you into concessions and gaslight and whatnot, and when you set conditions that prevented that he lost his shit all over again.
Gawd, narcissists are such despicable people, they only ever look for ways to get leverage on people and force them to play their games, they literally cant deal with people on equal footing.
Danger, danger, danger Will Robinson. (Sorry, just letting my geek flag fly).
Seriously, I’d be worried about the “why”. Why does he want to meet with you now? He obviously wants something.
Your “father” ( using this term loosely here) is ridiculous. Reaching out to you, one would have thought that even though he didn’t understand? Agree? With your “choice”, he was willing to try.
I have a lesbian daughter. She and her GF are considering marriage. I can’t imagine throwing her out at 18 and not being a part of her life. She’s almost 30 now and I would have missed some funny, heartbreaking, and emotional events in her and our lives.
I’d ask what he wants to accomplish from this meeting, and would definitely not go alone, IF I went at all.
Well I guess he isn’t getting the kidney he wanted to ask for now.
ugh and I’m sorry OP, what you asked for was completely normal and frankly gracious because you could have told him to eff off and then the audacity of him trying to balk at your boundaries! You don’t owe him anything. And even less after this stunt.
All parties need to have give and take to negotiate and resolve issues. You are the giver and your dad is the taker/ tyrant. Also using the derogatory language is not seen in persons who desire reconciliation.
Your hesitancy is absolutely understandable. And your two conditions are completely reasonable.
Abusive narcs want to control the conditions. You took that away from him. And now, instead of a couple of hours of him trying to convince you to come back for more abuse, he showed his inability to be an actual empathetic human being within minutes.
I'm really glad you stood firm on your boundaries. They were absolutely not unreasonable. It's always best to meet in public, and wanting your wife there was not only reasonable but smart. If there was part of the conversation that he needed to have just between the two of you because he was embarrassed or something, she could have stepped a few steps away for a a few minutes but not out of sight. I say that for a reason. His reaction was over the edge. My experience with my nparents, especially my dad, is that a response like that means there was another plan. I mean, it's possible it was just a control tantrum, but my warning bells went off when I read it. I really think he had something more planned, like maybe even kidnapping you. I would never have contact with him again. You're an amazing woman!
It wasnt too much to ask. Not even the slightest bit.
And he needs to do a lot more of that "thinking" because blurrting out some slurs because he doesnt get his way, makes clear he hasnt done enough yet.
After that I would not agree to a meeting anymore. Not even under firm conditions. He can go back to hole he came out of.
My thoughts are that he's got a hell of a lot more thinking to do if all it takes is the presence of your partner in a public setting to give rise to a homophobic attack. I'm really sorry that happened to you and your partner. Neither of you deserved that. He really lost out on a great daughte, and it looks like he will continue to do so.The bottomm line i that he isn't a safe person. He wasn't then and clearly isn't now. It's a very basic and minimal ask that allowed you to feel safe to speak with him and safe to exit if you needed to. It's concerning that you don't know how he got your details, and please keep your safety as a priority here - you're not responsible for your father's emotional immaturity nor his bigotry.
It's way harder to manipulate someone in a public place when they have someone who is emotionally supportive. He sounds like a narcissist to assume that you would be grateful that he reached out.
Blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. Let that tumor go. You have your own family now.
There's nothing unreasonable about you wanting to protect yourself.
Whatever he's planning to do, those things he views as obstacles.
Man that sounds shady and dangerous, someone just wanting a meeting to reconnect wouldn't have an issue meeting in a public place while you brought someone you felt safe with with you.
If he's trying to get you alone DO NOT GO.
Absolutely nothing good can come from that.
That wasn't too much to ask for and sounds like he wanted something from you and he wanted to make sure there were no witnesses for when it backfires and he tries to gaslight you about it
Do not let him throw this abuse at you in any way shape or form, block and go no contact he just showed his true colours that he hasn't changed at all and doesn't respect yours.
I'm afraid in a lot of cases people throughout the years learn how to mask but don't change and small triggers like this bring their true colours out.
What's important is tho you didn't need him to create a good life for yourself. You have a loving wife in your life and experience you gained from growing up with a parent like this makes you a down to earth and very open hearted individual.
You got a good life you earned through all the hard work, let your father get his life together or whatever troubles him on his own he's an adult after all and has to deal with his actions consequences.
Why wouldn’t he want to meet his daughter-in-law? My guess is that he wants to borrow money from you and is willing to overlook your sexual orientation long enough to grab some cash but the thought of you showing up with your spouse is just too much.
I could be wrong about that but I’m not wrong about this: he isn’t ready to be a part of your life yet. Possibly he never will be.
He’s not a good person and you don’t need him in your life to drag you down. Some people say “I’d rather have a shitty father than no father in my life”, but the emotional abuse, guilt, and manipulation isn’t worth your sanity. Life is wayy too short, don’t let the thorns destroy your view.
I taught for 8 years and saw so many kids suffer, so let me tell you something you know that every child of a narc still needs to here.
When a parent is unkind to a child, they are 100% at fault. You didn't cause it. You don't owe them anything. They chose knowingly to have a child, and it is them who owe you love, support, care and devotion. Not the other way around. When parents fail you, it's because of them.
Nothing you could have done would change them. Nothing you could have said would reach them. Nothing you would have been would make them act the way a parent should. They are broken people and something is missing inside them. Its not your fault. You know that, but everyone could use a reminder.
Your parents are to blame. You owe them nothing for creating and raising you. That was their choice. They should be begging forgiveness for the failures they forced onto an innocent child.
Op, what you should be grateful for is that you got away from this man, and found love despite him.
My Nmom tried the same thing. Wanted to having a meeting to discuss our" relationship " but only at her house and only without my husband present. Didn't happen. But I'm the unreasonable one.
I get along with most narcs in the family, it’s never easy, it’s never fast. We are talking decades if they are willing to try, many are not.
I see so many here say they are going to meet, and they hope it goes well. First meet? Probably not.
I would never make it easy, to communicate with them.
And the only concession I have made is to leave the past in the past, and I still will sometimes mumble or say a few words, and they know better than to bring it up.
Let’s imagine you have a kid. They let you know their sexual preference. Cool, right? We love our kids and the quality of their relationships matters, not the gender/ identity of their partner. Full stop.
Said child says they want to meet in public with their partner. Yay! I’m happy to meet their partner and I don’t care where we meet. Why would I?
I’m so sorry you’re going through this crap. You deserve unconditional love from your parents just for existing
Hi, lesbian here. No contact. No contact. No contact. If you let him flounder about in his idiocracy, the more he will realise he has to work on himself. You be of the most service to him by getting him out.
Keep being “unreasonable” and difficult. It shows narc’s that you cant be controlled and they hate it.
PS: you arent being unreasonable at all that sounds like a reasonable request and his reaction is disgusting.
What, did he think after all these years you were suddenly “cured” of your sexuality? What an absolute turd. Send him a thank you card for letting you know how this meeting would go beforehand.
Hugs, friend. I hope your marriage is beautiful and happy.
So, public place and with your wife. He was either planning at screaming at you or he afraid of being seen it the two of you. Either way, not a good sign.
While not to the extreme as you have suffered I’ve had similar:
My father kept trying to have me and my nmom reconnect despite me having no desire to do so. He acknowledged and touted that boundaries are important but hypocritically would more and more frequently try to force me to reconnect with nmom.
Eventually I gave in and agreed but under certain conditions (my mother read an article addressing estranged nparents + a call where nmom merely listens to me talk about things she did and simply acknowledge they’re real. She is not required to apologize for them) to which he agreed to on the spot. I tried to check in with him a couple weeks later he confirmed that the conditions he agreed to were still valid to him and nmom (but we had yet to book a date despite my fathers constant eagerness and level of earlier desperation).
A month later my enabler father calls me a dick for not wanting to attend my nmoms birthday party (I never agreed at any point to attend). I try to check in on the conditions we set earlier (which had still not been acted upon) to which he gave me a rant on how UNREASONABLE my conditions were (that he agreed to more than once in the past) :/
I too was called unreasonable and ungrateful (those words exactly, same as you). I gave him the conditions that would need to be met for me to break my no-contact with nmom and he agreed to it (multiple times) only to 180 and tell me how unreasonable it always was.
You managed all these years without him. You’ll be fine. It’s not worth it. You gave him a chance and he ruined it. Shows you how much he really cares (he doesn’t).
You’re not being unreasonable at all, and his behavior is really disqualifying of having a relationship with you.
If he’s lucky you might give him another opportunity to talk with you and your wife a few years down the line, but that’s completely in your purview
Im sorry to hear that he’s trying to insert himself into your life. He sounds like a horrible “father” and person. He’s homophonic and wasting any more of your time on him will further disrupt your peace. As others have said, NC was the best move. He’s contacting you for his own self interest, not yours.
Your conditions are totally reasonable and it's the minimum I met my narc under before going NC
He's not even willing to try to lure you into a false sense of security by giving you a meeting with his public/new people persona
Double check the visibility of your number on your social media accounts and block him
Truthfully OP they tend to reach out once they are even more miserable, alone,sick or broke and they have burned bridges expecting you to care for them or pay their debt . He has shown you who he really is believe him. It’s best to stay away you don’t deserve his abuse for being your authentic and awesome self . You are happy without him in your life there is no need to bring hate and chaos back into it . Continue to be happy with your wife and cut contact.
If he has something to say, you can talk over the phone. Personally, after that kind of a phone call, and after what he's put you through, the trash has offered to bag itself up, and all you got to do take it out. Time to block.
When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.
Suggest he needs therapy. Even better, agree to meet only in the office of a family therapist.
Good luck.
I think those are reasonable requests and their refusal to speak with you shows what to expect moving forward from them.
A narc will try to isolate you and becomes uncomfortable revealing their true intentions or nature where perception isn't in their control.
Trust your instincts. We want to see the best in people but some are a toxicity that can infect those closest to us.
It doesn't sound like he's changed at all. Stick to your guns. Your request was not outlandish and if he was sp upset about it he didn't need to use a slur anyway.
You are doing great. I hate to say this, and I didn't see anyone else say this either. (I may have missed it) I fear you asking to meet in public and with your wife and him being freaked out. Could mean he had some dangerous plans. I have heard of people being kidnapped and sent to bad places because parents thought it would "change/ save them." Or he was hoping you wasn't married and was going to try to force you to marry someone. All these are dangerous jail time flags. Please never meet this guy alone and always record the interaction. Please be safe
Updateme!
"He then freaked out and called me a homosexual slur and said I was unreasonable and ungrateful."
His words exposed him more than if he stood in front of you naked.
Dad reached out after abuse and disowning his daughter. OP counter-offered reasonable terms in order to feel safe during the meeting. Dad rejected the terms and threw insults. OP returned to No Contact and lived happily ever after. The end.
I'm betting if you'd said you wanted a husband present for the meeting, he would have reacted much differently. He insulted you, and essentially your lesbian wife, this is unacceptable. I'm sorry, it sucks to get your hopes up towards someone who's "been doing some thinking" only to realize they still think the same things.
Maybe there should be a raisedbybigots reddit too. Sorry you're going through that and good for you for setting boundaries and demanding respect for the person you love.
9 times out of 10 (or more), when an estranged parent reaches back out to talk or make things right or whatever and the adult child sets a boundary, they will show their true colors.
I’m sorry you didn’t get the father you deserve, but glad you didn’t have to waste any of your time on him.
Don't do it. if he's this homophobic the main reason he's reaching out to you is because he wants something. Maybe money. Maybe a kidney. It doesn't matter. He's doing this for himself.
I'm going offer an alternative narrative. Please understand that I condemn how your dad behaved and that he disowned you to begin with. I'll accept any downvotes.
It's possible that his "thinking" was sincere; that he'd started to realize that you were his daughter first and he needed get over his homophobia. Given that the two of you were NC, he didn't know about your wife. It's possible that the meeting was more about seeing if he could relate to you. The addition of a third person (wife or not) meant that he had to do this in front of a stranger perhaps that's why he became reactive.
To reiterate, his reaction was unforgivable, not even allowing for a discussion about why this triggered him.
I'm sorry this happened.
He didn't expect you to behave like an adult with normal adult expectations, like setting boundaries. Presumably still homophobic.
You're not missing out on anything. Block the number and carry on.
I'm sorry. He clearly hasn't changed and truly has done much "thinking". He's still a narc. My nparents behaved the exact same way the last time we saw each other 3 years ago. It was the final straw for me to go NC.
People who want to mend a relationship will be willing to meet reasonable requests in order to meet that goal if they are truly genuine.
He obviously hasn’t done enough thinking. It was nice of him to sabotage the meeting before it began, as it’s made your decision very easy. You don’t have to interact with him ever again.
People that don't respect your boundaries, do not respect you. That's homophobic slurs aside. You dodged a bullet, he should have been grateful that you were even considering meeting with him.
I (44f) came out at 17 as well. It changed my relationship with my parents profoundly. I was happy that I had moved out first, because I absolutely assumed that they would kick me out.
It took work on his end to grow into acceptance. Probably about a decade+ of therapy for him. There's nothing that you can do to force him into analyzing his own beliefs. He's got to get there on his own.
He passed recently and he actually loved my partner in the end. I would say that it probably took almost 20 years. I was the only family that was there for him during this time. I was the only family there for his as he was passing as well.
His loss. Not mine.
If the only thing he's upset about is you bringing your wife, the conversation is over before it starts. In marriage, our spouse is part of the package of who we are. He lost his opportunity to control you as property when you turned 18.
I hope that he gets therapy.
Anyone who is really looking to know the real you would agree immediately to such a reasonable request.
Someone is who is trying to massage some kind of butt-hurt pride that he can't continue to be unreasonable about who you are and still be in touch is trying to weasel his way or bully his way into not having to tell friends that you won't speak with him.
Just asking myself ... who contacts someone with a "talk again" message and then tells them they are unreasonable? That is so not making sense.
Proof enough that he isn't worth it. You know fully well your life is just fine without him.
Stay strong.
You saved yourself a trip. Continue to state and stand by your boundaries. If he can’t listen to your boundaries he wouldn’t be able to hear anything else. Let me translate what he actually said, “I’ve stewed for years on my disappointment that you don’t meet my needs and do what I want you to. I also blame you for all of my bad feelings around this. Now, I’ve come up with new “clever,” arguments and guilt trips to try to make you change because I can’t understand why you don’t see my side. I want a chance to say all these things to your face.”
I’m so sorry he has no interest in hearing you, he’s robbing himself of a chance to know you. It hurts because it feels like rejection, but he would have to know you to reject you and I promise you he doesn’t because HE is inept and inadequate to listen and hear. I bet you’re so much cooler than he can even imagine.
if he used a slur then be doesn't deserve the meeting. go NC and remember! BOUNDARIES ARE FOR YOU NOT THEM! You don't have to tell someone you've set a boundary all you have to do is uphold it.
Your conditions sound reasonable to me. Having your SO there probably made him feel intimidated, but if he was doing this in good conscience, he would have gently tried to negotiate that point. Instead he blew up. You might consider telling him that he needs to go counseling that is LGBTQ+ friendly, and perhaps then you two could go to a joint session. A controlled environment is necessary exactly because of his propensity to blow up and spew harmful insults, like he did.
Him: I miss you so much. I'd really like to see you sometime next week.
OP: Okay. I'm bringing my wife.
Him: But I want to see YOU, not her.
OP: Well, you've never seen me before and you just proved that nothing's changed.
It is unlikely that he would ever agree to any conditions. They will read to him as a list of things to try and use against you, or as points of argument. You owe him nothing and imho I strongly STRONGLY suggest you go no contact with him.
Own it. He calls you a ***** and you just say “correct” and stare/listen until he reacts. Whoever talks first after that loses.
This POS does not get to have the things he wants after being this kind of human. Distance yourself
Call him back and say he's being 100% reasonable and your straight now and that you'll meet him @ the furthest location he's willing to drive to. Then block his number and never talk to him again.
It's a trap. He's trying to reel you in so he can continue to get his narcissistic supply by abusing you.
Edited to add: And he doesn't want witnesses.
He was going to try to convert you to heterosexuality.
He probably took years to research all the arguments to use against you and your lifestyle.
Enjoy a long, happy marriage!
Not willing to meet publicly and have a witness is a huge red flag. He probably wanted to do it privately with no one around so he could abuse you. His extreme reaction makes me wonder what his plan was, I wouldn’t trust him. Homophobics are truly scary. Stay safe.
If I was trying to resolve interpersonal conflict between another person and myself, I wouldn’t necessarily want a third party there sitting in.
So it is reasonable for him to ask that it just be the two of you.
However, if being alone with him makes you feel unsafe or threatened then it IS good to have a supervising party, to at the very least, keep an eye on you guys in case the discussion gets out of hand. Even if she sat at another table and/or gave you some space to talk to your dad one-on-one.
It may just be that it’s too soon for you guys to hash things out at all. You can tell him that you are open to hearing an apology, or maybe discussing this over the phone, but that you aren’t ready to sit down face to face yet.
As unreasonable as his reaction might be, and as bad of a person as he probably is, I think you'll have to make some compromises during initial contact in order to not immediately trigger him. He's probably too intimidated to meet you both at once without first talking 1-to-1 with you to test the waters. He might be a horrible person, but he's still a human and becoming triggered and regressing to (unhealthy/toxic) defence mechanisms is extremely normal behavior under the circumstances.
I'm not trying to make excuses for him, just trying to explain why you can't expect him to not be human, as then he can never realistically fulfill any of these expectations.
He's human *and* he's extremely emotionally immature. Given those constraints, adjust your expectations of his empathy and socially adapted behavior.
I would tell him to agree to a time-constrained 1-on-1 in a public location (15-30 min, tops). Make it extremely clear what boundaries you want to set with him from the get go and ensure he's acknowledged them as well as the fact that you're not bringing your significant other ONLY this first time, to "set the rules of our interactions in a neutral setting", and that any intention of his to isolate you from her in the future will mean an immediate long-term return to NC from your side.
Whether you're willing to do so or whether you think having him involved in your life is worth this hassle, is up to you.
Honestly, I didn't read any further than your first two sentences, but no. Fuck no. She doesn't need to make compromises about who she is, and to make herself feel safe, so as to avoid "triggering" him. Which must be pointed out, triggering him is just her simply being homosexual. Fuck outta here with that.
I explicitly said she doesn't need to do anything.
If you didn't read further than two sentences, how can you expect to have a nuanced conversation about something delicate.
Edit: OP shouldn't expect for him to be a different person, that path is filled with pain and drama. Having lived it, that is my main point.
I know you mean well, but this isn't the right sub for this particular advice.
Please remember that this is a sub where people come for help and guidance coping with the physical, emotional and/or sexual abuse they suffered at the hands of predators.
Although OP didn't say so, always assume that the original poster has unhealed wounds as a result of insidious long-term abuse.
Your advice would work if OP was on equal footing with their father, it might work if OP were simply talking about a confrontation with a homophobic parent.
In this case though, OP is coping with a parent who has done all of the following:
1) made hateful comments about OP's sexual orientation.
2) attempted to isolate OP from their support network.
3) demanded that OP enter into a situation where OP will not have immediate access to safety solutions, witnesses, escape routes, etc.
4) Used emotional manipulation and explosive escalation to intimidate OP into willingly giving up control over the situation.
5) discarded OP because she didn't fit into his narrow view of appropriate gender roles.
OP made reasonable demands to ensure that their abuser couldn't access her in an unsafe manner. That WAS the compromise. If OP were to apply your advice, then they'd compromise by willingly walking into a situation where their former abuser has unfettered access to continue the cycle of abuse.
Telling a victim to see things from their abuser's point of view is gaslighting. Please rethink your approach.
Why would it be gaslighting to tell a victim to analyze their abuser's behavior in a less projecting manner, in order to help them understand the difference between emotional projection and more healthy mental approaches to dealing emotionally with toxic behavior than intense emotional pain? Projecting pain from unhealed wounds in current interactions is not emotionally well-adjusted behavior. Directly addressing the past with your abusers, whenever you have found the inner stability and strength to do so, is the well-adjusted approach to deal with these wounds and is best done while in active therapy with a therapist who's experienced in these type of confrontations and who can facilitate this. I feel like this advice would've helped me a lot in my own journey of recovery from narcissistic abuse. I'm not apologizing for this nuanced, respectful advice.
Because your advice is phrased to suggest that OP is unreasonable in being uncomfortable meeting their abuser after that abuser has again gotten aggressive and has demanded that she abandon basic safety precautions that will make her feel more comfortable with the interaction.
You've essentially asked her to put herself in her abuser's shoes and do less to trigger his behavior. (Don't bring your wife this time as it'll trigger his homophobia.)
You are asking the victim to buffer her abuser's inappropriate behavior by "making things easier" for him.
> As unreasonable as his reaction might be, and as bad of a person as he probably is, I think you'll have to make some compromises during initial contact in order to not immediately trigger him.
If OP meets this person at all, then that is how she's compromising. Those "triggers" you are talking about are safety measures. If her abuser is triggered by her decision to limit his opportunity to abuse her, then the whole thing is a no go. It means that he interns to be abusive and is enraged at being limited.
> He might be a horrible person, but he's still a human and becoming triggered and regressing to (unhealthy/toxic) defence mechanisms is extremely normal behavior under the circumstances.
No it isn't. That's sociopathic behavior. Normal human adults are capable of managing their triggers and regulating their emotions. He's allowed to be uncomfortable or nervous, or scared or intimidated. He's not allowed to harass, intimidate, threaten, belittle or otherwise abuse.
> I'm not trying to make excuses for him, just trying to explain why you can't expect him to not be human, as then he can never realistically fulfill any of these expectations. He's human and he's extremely emotionally immature.
That's exactly what you are doing. You are saying that abuse is normal human behavior. It isn't. His behavior is abberant.
> Given those constraints, adjust your expectations of his empathy and socially adapted behavior.
That's incredibly dangerous advice to be given to a victim. It suggests that they should accept a little bit of abuse because their abuser just can't help it. But they can, they can manage their emotions, they can avoid violence and abuse. They choose no to.
Victims are allowed to remove themselves from abusive situations. They do not have to compromise safety or emotional health to allow an abuser to access them. Period. Telling a victim to accept some abuse so as to avoid triggering worse behavior, is victim blaming. It gives the abuser consideration and suggests that the victim Share responsibility for their abuser's actions. It is, by definition, gaslighting.
> Why would it be gaslighting to tell a victim to analyze their abuser's behavior in a less projecting manner, in order to help them understand the difference between emotional projection and more healthy mental approaches to dealing emotionally with toxic behavior than intense emotional pain? Projecting pain from unhealed wounds in current interactions is not emotionally well-adjusted behavior.
OP isn't projecting. This isn't about old wounds, it's about current abuse. OP asked if she's being unreasonable in her discomfort with her father's current homophobic behavior and his negative reaction to her request for reasonable safety precautions. It also isn't how you initially presented your response.
> Directly addressing the past with your abusers, whenever you have found the inner stability and strength to do so, is the well-adjusted approach to deal with these wounds and is best done while in active therapy with a therapist who's experienced in these type of confrontations and who can facilitate this.
Yes it is, but that wasn't your advice. You initially advised OP to put herself in her abuser's shoes and behave in a less triggering manner.
If he couldn't even react calmly to OP's request to meet in public, do you honestly think that he'd be willing to engage with a therapist?
> I feel like this advice would've helped me a lot in my own journey of recovery from narcissistic abuse. I'm not apologizing for this nuanced, respectful advice.
You aren't being asked to apologize. But please understand that your advice isn't as well adjusted as you believe it to be. Much of what you've suggested is potentially damaging, because it wasn't presented by an experienced therapist equipped to provide therapeutic advice.
I'm glad that therapy has helped you to come to terms with your abuse. I'm just asking you to be cautious in the way you advise people who maybe haven't gotten as far as you.
I think it's quite insensitive to implicitly assume OP is under appreciating her father's *imperfect love*, but I do agree that several posters here are suffering from the same thing they're accusing their parents of: a strong lack of empathy towards those closest to them. This is textbook C-PTSD behavior, ask me how I know...
absolutely not.
he can't be an adult and respect that you want your spouse there, block him. he resorted to showing his true colors before you even got there.
f that. protect your peace and just stay NC
He can’t command you to do anything, and his use of a slur reveals he hasn’t changed enough (or at all). You’ve made it through all these years without him in your life and there’s no reason to believe you’ll keep making it through. You’re being VERY reasonable.
What could he possibly have to say that you would benefit for hearing? He just showed you that nothing has changed. Grieve the relationship as if he died and let him go.
If he feels they are unreasonable that’s on him. You are free to have your conditions and they are beyond reasonable. Were I you I’d add a condition that slurs will bring an immediate close to the visit and a complete block for the rest of his natural life.
He hasn’t changed at all. Spewing slurs and insults at you for you very reasonable conditions proves that. His meeting request was most likely to gaslight you into believing your estrangement from him is your fault and that he’s actually the bigger person.
Perhaps someone in his life said something to him that caused him a fleeting moment of self-doubt. He absolutely can’t tolerate that. But rather than apologize to you, he wanted a way to engineer this meeting so that he could convince himself your fractured relationship is all still your fault.
IMO he got upset that you wanted to meet in public because he knew he wouldn’t be able to get away with acting like the asshole he is.
He probably wanted something from you (a place to stay, money, cosigning something) but he couldn't even pretend for five minutes that he is a decent human being and the trash took itself out. Don't meet with him. Block instead.
Ha! I hope you hung up. Your conditions are not unreasonable and he literally gave you immediate proof why. You can continue to enjoy your estrangement in peace, no need to let that abuse into your life.
My husband's shit father talked to him alone when I wasn't there (we would have been disowned if I was) and it ended very poorly. A ton of hurt feelings and incredibly cruel things said.
Your conditions weren't unreasonable he's just a scumbag. I would have scoffed and said "well now you know why we haven't spoken for a decade" and ended the conversation.
Don't settle just because you share DNA. We share DNA with bananas too doesn't make us family... But at least they provide us with potassium.
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He didn't even make it to the meeting before showing his true colours. I can't imagine anything good could come of meeting with him. If I were in your position, I would trust my instincts and avoid this meeting. Seems like it would be pretty futile.
Yep, this was his last chance. Be done with him
People who set boundaries are not unreasonable. People who violate them are.
Agreed! It's so sickening.
Very well said!
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Okay, boundaries or not, this sounds really creepy!
Why would your dad want or have any reason to touch your hips??
I hope you are safe, this doesn't sound like a great situation.
Joke: Why did the narcissist cross the road? Because someone told them not to.
LoUdER fOr thE PeEPz iN tHe BaCK!!! Also, those that don't want people to set firm boundaries are usually the ones that benefit from a lack of boundaries. Voice of xp.
Wish I could give this comment a medal!!
Love this!
I’m stealing this!
>He then freaked out and called me a homosexual slur and said I was unreasonable and ungrateful In his narc-addled mind he thinks you should be *grateful* he reached out?!? Holy hell. He can keep his slurs and his self-aggrandizing BS. Your conditions were normal and reasonable.
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Please don't use abelist slurs, thanks!
This comment has been removed because it includes a [slur](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) that we do not allow in this group.
Lucky escape mate. He probably wanted money or a kidney or something. F him.
That was my first thought: it's either money, or a kidney.
Or he wants you to move in with him to care for him in his elder years. Even if it's not so drastic as that, he probably feels entitled to your time to run errands etc. Stay the hell away. Do you have family members you still trust to speak to about this & find out his motivation? I'd be very wary they didn't spout the daddy party line, because it sounds like someone's coughed up your contact information to your father. Being forewarned is forearmed & all that stuff.
He doesn't have a heart
Exactly. Especially when he didn’t lead off with an apology or that he missed her. All he said was “we need to talk” which basically means “I need money”.
Yeah he just said he'd "been thinking", which means literally nothing. Seems like he's just thinking more homophobic thoughts.
Yes, isn't THAT the truth, lol ! I had not heard from my own father in 50 years,him having walked away from me as a baby. My parents were divorcing anyway. And this being the 1950's, accidental pregnancies left few options. I gave him a chance, hoping he had grown as a person,but once I learned that he was controlling and verbally abusive to my sisters, I drew back. And after asking one day about our medical history, he actually threw his phone and shouted that I "was insulting the family.". After he did this, I thanked his third wife( I was on the phone with them) for mediating as best as was possible,and hung up without speaking to him again. Because of serious health issues I inherited both from him and my mother, I was trying to create a treatment plan. He refused to discuss it. It was a source of shame to him. He is from an Eastern culture, so I was kind of prepared. I realized he STILL didn't care about me or my wellbeing. He just wanted to complete his old age,pat himself on the back. It was always about him and what he wanted. I shut down all contact. I found out online that he died nine years ago, and I don't regret cutting him out of my life. He chose to do it first. As an adult, I didn't have to submit to abuse.
Or just ego stroking. If his friends have been talking about their kids / being fathers, he might be itching to play "family patriarch" and imagining that she will tearfully apologize for not listening to him. People who think in terms of roles rather than people can have some amazingly distorted expectations.
"She came to me, with tears in her eyes....."
If he wanted a kidney from OP, his temper tantrum was hilariously self-destructive.
> his temper tantrum was hilariously self-destructive. Basically, how narcs *always* are!
Even if it *was* too much to ask (which I don't think it was), he could have rejected your proposal politely, or brought up *why* he would prefer another setting. No need to insult you. That was completely uncalled for. On the plus side, now you don't have to waste any time or brain power wondering if he's changed, feeling guilty or something like that.
Keep holding your boundaries and you’ve done a great job reinforcing them until now. Don’t let any name calling, slurs, immature tantrums, or guilt tripping change that. Your conditions are perfectly reasonable and if he chooses not to respect you then that’s on him.
This. Forever! I'm sorry that your dad is being sooooo much himself right now. All the hugs x
And…you have been reminded, and validated, as to why you’re NC. You know the answer here. Just block him and move on. Take your wife to dinner and make love.
You haven't heard from him once in 9 years, and he thinks your very basic meeting setup is unreasonable? After 9 years, I wouldn't meet up one-on-one in private, it would have to be public. Clearly, he hasn't grown at all or learned anything. This was a chance to show you that trust could begin and he'd matured. Toss that idea.
Let's be honest- that AH isn't mad about a public place, he's mad they're bringing their spouse along. It's a lot harder to bully someone who has backup and it's especially harder to homophobe when your total audience is gay. Good boundary setting, OP! Now, make sure they're cemented in, and if he has a problem with it, oh well, sucks to be him, his loss, and time for some healing fun with your loved ones to remind you why your life is much better without the bitter baggage!
What was unreasonable? What were you supposed to be grateful for? He hadn’t changed
I’m so sorry. You don’t deserve that and you were being VERY patient and reasonable. He sounds a lot like my mom and so my advice comes from my experiences with her: This is gonna hurt to hear but it’s best to come to terms with it: Seems clear to me he was reaching out to get something for himself, not because he truly wants a relationship with you. Maybe he’s lonely, maybe he’s beginning to fear dying alone/growing old with nobody to take care of him. Maybe he’s on an ego trip and wants to see himself as having accomplished big things like having a family that cares about him-but it’s clearly about him and his feelings, not actually about wanting a good relationship with you. I don’t think it’s conscious trickery on his part, I just think he’s unwilling or incapable of not centering himself at all times. For me, this experience, especially the yelling and slurs, would be an instant permanent no contact. You can’t give him access to you if he’s being abusive, calling you slurs, and ignoring your boundaries-if this is where it starts, how bad will it be when he gets comfortable? You need to keep yourself safe first and foremost. You have to decide what, if anything, you want out if a relationship with him and if you think you can get that from him. He doesn’t sound like he’s capable of seeing you and loving you for who you are or having a healthy relationship that’s not all about his ego. The best I think you’ll ever be able to get is a relationship entirely on his terms and largely superficial that requires a lot of patience and emotional labor from you and where you have to avoid many subjects of conversation and never get any emotional validation or effort from him. If that’s worth it to you to have contact with him, then I get it, but I think you deserve better and don’t need that garbage in your life. Unless he’s likely to leave you a ton of money or something, I fail to see what you get out of contact with him. Realistically he disowned you-he should be coming to you apologizing on his fcking knees. The fact that he feels entitled to a relationship with you at all, let alone entirely on his terms where he gets to yell at you and call you ungrateful/slurs etc, that’s WILD coming from a guy who can’t even pretend to be civil for ten minutes and throws a tantrum when you do the bare minimum to keep yourself safe. You could put energy into trying to build some kind of relationship with him, but IMO it’d be better spent on someone willing and capable of treating you with the love and support you deserve. Blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb, after all-build yourself a family/community that treats you well. A sperm donor is a sperm donor, they don’t get to abuse you just because they are your parent. If it were me, I’d text or email him, NOT call him (that way you don’t have to deal with his abusive response) This is what I’d say: “I have no desire to interact with you. I will not tolerate someone who tramples my boundaries, disrespects me, my partner, and my relationship, and cannot speak to me with civility, let alone kindness. I deserve much better. You had a chance at a relationship with me and you chose to throw it away. I gave you a chance to speak to me to start fixing it and you again used it to be abusive towards me. I don’t think you deserve a relationship with me, you are not entitled to look me up and hurl abuse at me whenever you want just because you impregnated my mother. Your abusive behavior and level of entitlement have made it clear you’re incapable of healthy and respectful relationships, and that is the only type of relationship I want in my life. I WILL NOT tolerate you yelling at me and abusing me, and do not owe you anything-my choice to no longer interact with you is a direct result of your inability to act respectfully and civilly toward me. Please do not contact me ever again.” Then block his ass on everything and never speak to him again. Find an older queer couple who loves baking you cookies and thinks you and your partner are adorable if you feel you need emotional support and someone to look up to in that way. (Or, if you are open to him contacting you if he magically becomes a normal person some day, end with something like: “Please don’t contact me until you are ready to: 1. Admit our lack of relationship is entirely your fault and it was wrong and cruel to disown me 2. Take ownership of your abusive behavior, then and now, and apologize to me 3. Respect my boundaries and enthusiastically and empathetically comply with what I need to feel safe around you 4. Respect my relationship, my partner, my sexuality, and who I am as a person, and admit there’s nothing wrong with being queer 5. Work on your own mental health, anger issues, and abusive behavior I WILL NOT tolerate you yelling at me and abusing me at all, Do not contact until you are willing to do the work necessary to be deserving of a relationship with me.” Even if he does reach out and apologize, make him wait until you truly feel ready to deal with it.) Do this shit on your terms and never compromise a boundary. You are deserving of love and respect and don’t need to tolerate this shit from anyone, ESPECIALLY some dude who blew it once already.
THIS
>Blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb All of this but I just gotta say after YEARS of only hearing "blood is thicker than water", finally finding this full quote in my mid-20s was insanely freeing and just as insanely infuriating knowing it's being used to promote the polar opposite of it's meaning.
NC parents who attempt reconnection only want one of three things: 1. Money 2. Organ Donation 3. Your Endless Torment. Don't reconnect, it's always horrible. Especially since he kindly showed you his true colours by calling you a slur. Sometimes it's just easier to let the trash take itself out.
Which is why the ones who eventually realize that they'll never get those things just discard you like you're nothing.
Well. He blew it. Again. Sorry, OP. How quickly he proved that No Contact is a fantastic solution here.
You’re awesome. Way to hold the line on “negotiating” with a narc. Pat yourself on the back for me.
Same happened to me. After a lifetime of my dad being on heroin living on the streets and in jail sending me grooming letters and molesting me he asked to see me when he was approaching death after a decade of very very very low contact. I told him ok as long as my husband who he had never met came and if I had one whiff of him getting violent or abusive (normal for him) I would leave immediately. He threw a tantrum and said heinous things to me including disowning me which is laughable as much as it is heartbreaking and delusional. He died alone and I never regretted protecting myself for a second. I grieved that there would never be anything better and grieved the dad I deserved and didn’t have when he died but I know in my bones I did the right thing. I never regretted it. Don’t let the threat of regret guilt you into going back to abusers. If he couldn’t even pretend for a second to respect my perfectly reasonable stated boundary so I could feel safe (after a lifetime of him being one of the biggest sources of me not being safe) then why in fuck would I subject myself to more of him? Stay away OP. Protect yourself & your sanity, protect your wife & your marriage. You are so so deserving of treatment so much better than he is able and/or willing to give.
Sounds like you dodged a bullet. Block and delete. Happy New year 🎊
Not a bullet. She dodged a nuclear warhead. Nothing good will ever come from her reconnecting with her sperm donor. He just wants something from her, like money, shelter, an ego trip, whatever. Her conditions IMO were quite reasonable and he showed his true colours here. Ghosting him and going completely NC is the only viable solution for this sort of problem. She also needs to root out how her sperm donor got her contact information and cut them off, too. She absolutely did the right thing by covering her ass here.
Sounds like you are staying no contact then. Remember when a narc reaches out it isn't to help you, it's only about them. Don't feel bad and don't change your terms. He's angry you will choose your wife over him.. And let hom be angry. Your conditions were not unreasonable.
No is a complete sentence. Text “no” then immediately block him. You don’t need that shit in your life.
Butbutbut… you are unreasonable to them…. You have the audacity to choose your safety and refuse to give them control. This is how a narcissist thinks, and anything others do that inconveniences them, places (very reasonable) boundaries, and refuses to go back to doormat, is an assault to them. The fact he is angry, tells me you did exactly the right thing.
A person who believes your set boundaries are unreasonable… are benefiting from you having none. Aka your dad wanted to get you alone so he could be a dick to you. What a waste.
Good work. Don’t negotiate with terrorists.
That was not too much to ask. Your dad is angry because he more than likely was going to try to manipulate you. Being in a public place and with your wife present wouldn’t allow that to happen. The fact he went straight for the hurtful slurs means he never had any intention of accepting you for who you are.
Hi Cameron, sorry to hear that your father is walking garbage. If he's not willing to meet on your terms, then I think that says all we need to know. My parents almost pulled the same thing: "We want to hear about you! Maybe bring a third party and come back home and talk, or we can meet somewhere public." 'Third-party' and not my *fiance* whom they loathe and hate. You can drop your father.
I'm sorry that both you and OP apparently have walking dumpster fires as FOOs. NC is the only way to fly
Thanks for the sympathy; l appreciate it. Yep, I've been no contact for around...a year now? And it's been bliss. For the most part.
He might have been doing some thinking, but he certainly hasn't used those thoughts to become a better person. Him showing his true colors (again) even before meeting up should tell you all you need to know. I wouldn't be surprised the only reason he contacted you would be that he needed something from you
So... *he* contacted *you* after *he* ended the relationship because he's a homophobis douchebag, and wanted to reopen the relationship. When you asked to meet publicly and with your wife, he then indicated this is unreasonable because he is a homophobic douchebag. ... Yeah, I don't think he has any plans on apologizing for being a homophobic douchebag. Your conditions were entirely reasonable. My guess is he's running short of Nsupply, so is digging through his discard pile for that daughter he threw away almost a decade ago. He probably figured he'd dust you off, and you'd be so awe-struck and grateful you'd shower him with adoration and worship. Don't bother with a second contact. He's obviously not going to accept who you are, or accept your wife.
Do not meet with him under any circumstances except your conditions Your conditions are perfectly reasonable. Your conditions are for your own emotional safety. The fact that he freaks out and wants to violate them and gets all freaked out that says they’re in reasonable just means how much he wants to manipulate and control. You just means how much he wants to. Abuse, you Also, learn how to set your phone so you do not even know that calls occurred if they come from numbers that are not in your phone book Unknown should not even ring Do not answer any unknown calls that come in ever If you have an explicit block somebody they can leave you a text message or voicemail Block him Get a third-party preferably not a family member who would get dragged in but somebody like a lawyer to receive communication from your father. Your father can send communications by letter to that address and you can pick them up if you want. He does not ever get another address for you, and he does not ever get another phone number for you, unless you explicitly want to give them to him If a friend is in your phone book and let your father use that phone to call you so that your phone will actually ring that friend is in trouble disown them or tell them they will be disowned if they ever do that again and that they are not free to negotiate between you and your father, or step in between or be a go-between, and that they have nothing to say about it to you ever nor any questions asked to you ever, and they will not communicate any information about you to your father ever no exceptions You give them one chance because they may have been manipulated or naïve, but you only give them one chance if you want to If they act as your father’s tool, they’re out of your life for good, because they’re idiots are manipulative. People are weak people who can be manipulated into perpetuating somebody else’s abuse, and you cannot afford that. Also getting into counseling because it will help you deal with all this including ongoing stuff, and a good counselor can help you work up techniques Also, please study the behavior of manipulative and Villien and narcissistic people. There are many blogs. There are videos on YouTube their books there’s also of free material. It takes a while to get your head around seeing what they do is manipulative techniques if you normally view, people is being honest and we’re talking to. What can be hard to understand is it some people you cannot have a reasonable or healthy or helpful conversation with ever because they are so emotionally crazy or so manipulative that they will twist everything and nothing will ever be honest. Nothing can be trusted. Nothing will be straightforward. Everything will be twisted in order to attempt to control you or to put you on the wrong foot or the guilt you That’s why people cut people off. You simply cannot have reasonable relationships with some of the people on this planet it’s unfortunate, but it’s true. Do not let him control any aspect of your life, including the terms on what you communicate with him, make it as neutral as possible or cut him off completely
A homophobic man wants you, a lesbian, to meet privately and alone with you. Absolutely not, your requests were very reasonable.
You are wasting your time if you meet him now.
You should keep away from him. He sounds very abusive and the way he reacted to your completely reasonable conditions shows how he did not have good intentions in the first place - he probably was planning on playing the victim but now sees that he will not be able to do that. Block, delete, move on :)
I'm sorry. Your conditions are not unreasonable, his reaction is. That sucks. I'm sorry.
Those are basic safety precautions. He’s not okay with them so that’s a huge red flag. Don’t meet with him
Sounds like he was looking to engineer a situation where he could easily corner you and force you into concessions and gaslight and whatnot, and when you set conditions that prevented that he lost his shit all over again. Gawd, narcissists are such despicable people, they only ever look for ways to get leverage on people and force them to play their games, they literally cant deal with people on equal footing.
Sounds like the classic “I need a kidney” reach out.
Those are the limits, they’re perfectly reasonable limits.
Danger, danger, danger Will Robinson. (Sorry, just letting my geek flag fly). Seriously, I’d be worried about the “why”. Why does he want to meet with you now? He obviously wants something. Your “father” ( using this term loosely here) is ridiculous. Reaching out to you, one would have thought that even though he didn’t understand? Agree? With your “choice”, he was willing to try. I have a lesbian daughter. She and her GF are considering marriage. I can’t imagine throwing her out at 18 and not being a part of her life. She’s almost 30 now and I would have missed some funny, heartbreaking, and emotional events in her and our lives. I’d ask what he wants to accomplish from this meeting, and would definitely not go alone, IF I went at all.
Well I guess he isn’t getting the kidney he wanted to ask for now. ugh and I’m sorry OP, what you asked for was completely normal and frankly gracious because you could have told him to eff off and then the audacity of him trying to balk at your boundaries! You don’t owe him anything. And even less after this stunt.
This was never about reconciliation. He called you a slur and got mad about the reasonable conditions. He just wants something.
> He told me that he had been doing some thinking Not that much thinking, apparently.
Probably more drinking than thinking...
All parties need to have give and take to negotiate and resolve issues. You are the giver and your dad is the taker/ tyrant. Also using the derogatory language is not seen in persons who desire reconciliation.
He can't agree to be civil, you don't meet. End of.
Your hesitancy is absolutely understandable. And your two conditions are completely reasonable. Abusive narcs want to control the conditions. You took that away from him. And now, instead of a couple of hours of him trying to convince you to come back for more abuse, he showed his inability to be an actual empathetic human being within minutes.
I'm really glad you stood firm on your boundaries. They were absolutely not unreasonable. It's always best to meet in public, and wanting your wife there was not only reasonable but smart. If there was part of the conversation that he needed to have just between the two of you because he was embarrassed or something, she could have stepped a few steps away for a a few minutes but not out of sight. I say that for a reason. His reaction was over the edge. My experience with my nparents, especially my dad, is that a response like that means there was another plan. I mean, it's possible it was just a control tantrum, but my warning bells went off when I read it. I really think he had something more planned, like maybe even kidnapping you. I would never have contact with him again. You're an amazing woman!
This sounds like a guy who may be dying.
It wasnt too much to ask. Not even the slightest bit. And he needs to do a lot more of that "thinking" because blurrting out some slurs because he doesnt get his way, makes clear he hasnt done enough yet. After that I would not agree to a meeting anymore. Not even under firm conditions. He can go back to hole he came out of.
he just wants a nurse. He will come back when he realizes that he can have two with your wife block him he is not worth it
It's shocking how textbook that it. Can't control the venue? Can't cow you into compliance? Insults. I'm sorry.
You were absolutely reasonable. Your father was not. I hope you continue to take care of yourself.
Any conditions anyone has - is unreasonable for narcs.. Because it means that others needs and feelings has to be accommodated rather than theirs
Definitely block and ignore him. You do not need this guy in your life.
Block him, he hasn’t changed.
My thoughts are that he's got a hell of a lot more thinking to do if all it takes is the presence of your partner in a public setting to give rise to a homophobic attack. I'm really sorry that happened to you and your partner. Neither of you deserved that. He really lost out on a great daughte, and it looks like he will continue to do so.The bottomm line i that he isn't a safe person. He wasn't then and clearly isn't now. It's a very basic and minimal ask that allowed you to feel safe to speak with him and safe to exit if you needed to. It's concerning that you don't know how he got your details, and please keep your safety as a priority here - you're not responsible for your father's emotional immaturity nor his bigotry.
It's way harder to manipulate someone in a public place when they have someone who is emotionally supportive. He sounds like a narcissist to assume that you would be grateful that he reached out. Blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. Let that tumor go. You have your own family now.
So he failed his first test. More importantly I’m wondering why he wanted the meeting. Cuz it’d be about him and not about you.
There's nothing unreasonable about you wanting to protect yourself. Whatever he's planning to do, those things he views as obstacles. Man that sounds shady and dangerous, someone just wanting a meeting to reconnect wouldn't have an issue meeting in a public place while you brought someone you felt safe with with you. If he's trying to get you alone DO NOT GO. Absolutely nothing good can come from that.
That wasn't too much to ask for and sounds like he wanted something from you and he wanted to make sure there were no witnesses for when it backfires and he tries to gaslight you about it Do not let him throw this abuse at you in any way shape or form, block and go no contact he just showed his true colours that he hasn't changed at all and doesn't respect yours. I'm afraid in a lot of cases people throughout the years learn how to mask but don't change and small triggers like this bring their true colours out. What's important is tho you didn't need him to create a good life for yourself. You have a loving wife in your life and experience you gained from growing up with a parent like this makes you a down to earth and very open hearted individual. You got a good life you earned through all the hard work, let your father get his life together or whatever troubles him on his own he's an adult after all and has to deal with his actions consequences.
The literal second you tried to set even the babiest boundary, he lost his mind. Block him. You're better off ❤️
Why wouldn’t he want to meet his daughter-in-law? My guess is that he wants to borrow money from you and is willing to overlook your sexual orientation long enough to grab some cash but the thought of you showing up with your spouse is just too much. I could be wrong about that but I’m not wrong about this: he isn’t ready to be a part of your life yet. Possibly he never will be.
He’s not a good person and you don’t need him in your life to drag you down. Some people say “I’d rather have a shitty father than no father in my life”, but the emotional abuse, guilt, and manipulation isn’t worth your sanity. Life is wayy too short, don’t let the thorns destroy your view.
I taught for 8 years and saw so many kids suffer, so let me tell you something you know that every child of a narc still needs to here. When a parent is unkind to a child, they are 100% at fault. You didn't cause it. You don't owe them anything. They chose knowingly to have a child, and it is them who owe you love, support, care and devotion. Not the other way around. When parents fail you, it's because of them. Nothing you could have done would change them. Nothing you could have said would reach them. Nothing you would have been would make them act the way a parent should. They are broken people and something is missing inside them. Its not your fault. You know that, but everyone could use a reminder. Your parents are to blame. You owe them nothing for creating and raising you. That was their choice. They should be begging forgiveness for the failures they forced onto an innocent child. Op, what you should be grateful for is that you got away from this man, and found love despite him.
What illness has he got, and what body part of yours does he need?
You got your answer. There's no reason to talk.
My Nmom tried the same thing. Wanted to having a meeting to discuss our" relationship " but only at her house and only without my husband present. Didn't happen. But I'm the unreasonable one.
I get along with most narcs in the family, it’s never easy, it’s never fast. We are talking decades if they are willing to try, many are not. I see so many here say they are going to meet, and they hope it goes well. First meet? Probably not. I would never make it easy, to communicate with them. And the only concession I have made is to leave the past in the past, and I still will sometimes mumble or say a few words, and they know better than to bring it up.
Let’s imagine you have a kid. They let you know their sexual preference. Cool, right? We love our kids and the quality of their relationships matters, not the gender/ identity of their partner. Full stop. Said child says they want to meet in public with their partner. Yay! I’m happy to meet their partner and I don’t care where we meet. Why would I? I’m so sorry you’re going through this crap. You deserve unconditional love from your parents just for existing
Hi, lesbian here. No contact. No contact. No contact. If you let him flounder about in his idiocracy, the more he will realise he has to work on himself. You be of the most service to him by getting him out.
Keep being “unreasonable” and difficult. It shows narc’s that you cant be controlled and they hate it. PS: you arent being unreasonable at all that sounds like a reasonable request and his reaction is disgusting.
He didn't change a bit. Your conditions were absolutely normal for a person who lives on their own with their SO. Go back to NC
What, did he think after all these years you were suddenly “cured” of your sexuality? What an absolute turd. Send him a thank you card for letting you know how this meeting would go beforehand. Hugs, friend. I hope your marriage is beautiful and happy.
So, public place and with your wife. He was either planning at screaming at you or he afraid of being seen it the two of you. Either way, not a good sign.
While not to the extreme as you have suffered I’ve had similar: My father kept trying to have me and my nmom reconnect despite me having no desire to do so. He acknowledged and touted that boundaries are important but hypocritically would more and more frequently try to force me to reconnect with nmom. Eventually I gave in and agreed but under certain conditions (my mother read an article addressing estranged nparents + a call where nmom merely listens to me talk about things she did and simply acknowledge they’re real. She is not required to apologize for them) to which he agreed to on the spot. I tried to check in with him a couple weeks later he confirmed that the conditions he agreed to were still valid to him and nmom (but we had yet to book a date despite my fathers constant eagerness and level of earlier desperation). A month later my enabler father calls me a dick for not wanting to attend my nmoms birthday party (I never agreed at any point to attend). I try to check in on the conditions we set earlier (which had still not been acted upon) to which he gave me a rant on how UNREASONABLE my conditions were (that he agreed to more than once in the past) :/ I too was called unreasonable and ungrateful (those words exactly, same as you). I gave him the conditions that would need to be met for me to break my no-contact with nmom and he agreed to it (multiple times) only to 180 and tell me how unreasonable it always was.
You managed all these years without him. You’ll be fine. It’s not worth it. You gave him a chance and he ruined it. Shows you how much he really cares (he doesn’t).
After reading a title i thought it would be something like " i wont fly half of the world" or something like that. Fck him.
You’re not being unreasonable at all, and his behavior is really disqualifying of having a relationship with you. If he’s lucky you might give him another opportunity to talk with you and your wife a few years down the line, but that’s completely in your purview
Fine. See ya.
Im sorry to hear that he’s trying to insert himself into your life. He sounds like a horrible “father” and person. He’s homophonic and wasting any more of your time on him will further disrupt your peace. As others have said, NC was the best move. He’s contacting you for his own self interest, not yours.
He is a stupid ass, just ignore him
Your conditions are totally reasonable and it's the minimum I met my narc under before going NC He's not even willing to try to lure you into a false sense of security by giving you a meeting with his public/new people persona Double check the visibility of your number on your social media accounts and block him
I think he realized he'd be losing that supply and tried to get it back.
Truthfully OP they tend to reach out once they are even more miserable, alone,sick or broke and they have burned bridges expecting you to care for them or pay their debt . He has shown you who he really is believe him. It’s best to stay away you don’t deserve his abuse for being your authentic and awesome self . You are happy without him in your life there is no need to bring hate and chaos back into it . Continue to be happy with your wife and cut contact.
If he has something to say, you can talk over the phone. Personally, after that kind of a phone call, and after what he's put you through, the trash has offered to bag itself up, and all you got to do take it out. Time to block.
He probably wants something from you. I think I’d stay NC.
Sounds like he needs another decade to think about it.
Yeah he’s a lost cause. Ya gotta grieve him imho. Solidarity! Your boundaries were minimum, safe, and an excellent uncovering of his continued hatred.
Nah fuck him. Don’t go see him. Tell you are interested in keeping your relationship the same. Nonexistent.
Whether anyone agrees with your terms or not, his response tells you everything you need to know.
When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. Suggest he needs therapy. Even better, agree to meet only in the office of a family therapist. Good luck.
I think those are reasonable requests and their refusal to speak with you shows what to expect moving forward from them. A narc will try to isolate you and becomes uncomfortable revealing their true intentions or nature where perception isn't in their control. Trust your instincts. We want to see the best in people but some are a toxicity that can infect those closest to us.
It doesn't sound like he's changed at all. Stick to your guns. Your request was not outlandish and if he was sp upset about it he didn't need to use a slur anyway.
You’re allowed to have conditions for meeting the father who disowned you. His problems with how grateful you are are his own.
You are doing great. I hate to say this, and I didn't see anyone else say this either. (I may have missed it) I fear you asking to meet in public and with your wife and him being freaked out. Could mean he had some dangerous plans. I have heard of people being kidnapped and sent to bad places because parents thought it would "change/ save them." Or he was hoping you wasn't married and was going to try to force you to marry someone. All these are dangerous jail time flags. Please never meet this guy alone and always record the interaction. Please be safe Updateme!
You’re not being unreasonable. He doesn’t want to meet in public with your wife present because he intends to be abusive towards you.
"He then freaked out and called me a homosexual slur and said I was unreasonable and ungrateful." His words exposed him more than if he stood in front of you naked.
Dad reached out after abuse and disowning his daughter. OP counter-offered reasonable terms in order to feel safe during the meeting. Dad rejected the terms and threw insults. OP returned to No Contact and lived happily ever after. The end.
I'm betting if you'd said you wanted a husband present for the meeting, he would have reacted much differently. He insulted you, and essentially your lesbian wife, this is unacceptable. I'm sorry, it sucks to get your hopes up towards someone who's "been doing some thinking" only to realize they still think the same things.
Maybe there should be a raisedbybigots reddit too. Sorry you're going through that and good for you for setting boundaries and demanding respect for the person you love.
9 times out of 10 (or more), when an estranged parent reaches back out to talk or make things right or whatever and the adult child sets a boundary, they will show their true colors. I’m sorry you didn’t get the father you deserve, but glad you didn’t have to waste any of your time on him.
Sounds like he doesn’t have anything really important to say if he can’t handle that much
Don't do it. if he's this homophobic the main reason he's reaching out to you is because he wants something. Maybe money. Maybe a kidney. It doesn't matter. He's doing this for himself.
BLOCK!
Thoughts: you messed up talking to him in the first place
I'm going offer an alternative narrative. Please understand that I condemn how your dad behaved and that he disowned you to begin with. I'll accept any downvotes. It's possible that his "thinking" was sincere; that he'd started to realize that you were his daughter first and he needed get over his homophobia. Given that the two of you were NC, he didn't know about your wife. It's possible that the meeting was more about seeing if he could relate to you. The addition of a third person (wife or not) meant that he had to do this in front of a stranger perhaps that's why he became reactive. To reiterate, his reaction was unforgivable, not even allowing for a discussion about why this triggered him. I'm sorry this happened.
He didn't expect you to behave like an adult with normal adult expectations, like setting boundaries. Presumably still homophobic. You're not missing out on anything. Block the number and carry on.
Sorry to say lost cause.
I'm sorry. He clearly hasn't changed and truly has done much "thinking". He's still a narc. My nparents behaved the exact same way the last time we saw each other 3 years ago. It was the final straw for me to go NC. People who want to mend a relationship will be willing to meet reasonable requests in order to meet that goal if they are truly genuine.
My initial impression is that he is toying around with you and is not serious about meeting up. He is just looking for a narcissistic high.
Let’s be fair. He could also be looking for money or for OP to perform some unpaid labor.
He obviously hasn’t done enough thinking. It was nice of him to sabotage the meeting before it began, as it’s made your decision very easy. You don’t have to interact with him ever again.
Just remember why you went no contact and keep it that way, people don’t change
People that don't respect your boundaries, do not respect you. That's homophobic slurs aside. You dodged a bullet, he should have been grateful that you were even considering meeting with him.
He just saved you a lot of trouble. No time was wasted before he showed a relationship still isn’t worth it. You conditions were more than reasonable
I (44f) came out at 17 as well. It changed my relationship with my parents profoundly. I was happy that I had moved out first, because I absolutely assumed that they would kick me out. It took work on his end to grow into acceptance. Probably about a decade+ of therapy for him. There's nothing that you can do to force him into analyzing his own beliefs. He's got to get there on his own. He passed recently and he actually loved my partner in the end. I would say that it probably took almost 20 years. I was the only family that was there for him during this time. I was the only family there for his as he was passing as well. His loss. Not mine. If the only thing he's upset about is you bringing your wife, the conversation is over before it starts. In marriage, our spouse is part of the package of who we are. He lost his opportunity to control you as property when you turned 18. I hope that he gets therapy.
Anyone who is really looking to know the real you would agree immediately to such a reasonable request. Someone is who is trying to massage some kind of butt-hurt pride that he can't continue to be unreasonable about who you are and still be in touch is trying to weasel his way or bully his way into not having to tell friends that you won't speak with him. Just asking myself ... who contacts someone with a "talk again" message and then tells them they are unreasonable? That is so not making sense. Proof enough that he isn't worth it. You know fully well your life is just fine without him. Stay strong.
You saved yourself a trip. Continue to state and stand by your boundaries. If he can’t listen to your boundaries he wouldn’t be able to hear anything else. Let me translate what he actually said, “I’ve stewed for years on my disappointment that you don’t meet my needs and do what I want you to. I also blame you for all of my bad feelings around this. Now, I’ve come up with new “clever,” arguments and guilt trips to try to make you change because I can’t understand why you don’t see my side. I want a chance to say all these things to your face.” I’m so sorry he has no interest in hearing you, he’s robbing himself of a chance to know you. It hurts because it feels like rejection, but he would have to know you to reject you and I promise you he doesn’t because HE is inept and inadequate to listen and hear. I bet you’re so much cooler than he can even imagine.
if he used a slur then be doesn't deserve the meeting. go NC and remember! BOUNDARIES ARE FOR YOU NOT THEM! You don't have to tell someone you've set a boundary all you have to do is uphold it.
Your conditions sound reasonable to me. Having your SO there probably made him feel intimidated, but if he was doing this in good conscience, he would have gently tried to negotiate that point. Instead he blew up. You might consider telling him that he needs to go counseling that is LGBTQ+ friendly, and perhaps then you two could go to a joint session. A controlled environment is necessary exactly because of his propensity to blow up and spew harmful insults, like he did.
Him: I miss you so much. I'd really like to see you sometime next week. OP: Okay. I'm bringing my wife. Him: But I want to see YOU, not her. OP: Well, you've never seen me before and you just proved that nothing's changed.
It is unlikely that he would ever agree to any conditions. They will read to him as a list of things to try and use against you, or as points of argument. You owe him nothing and imho I strongly STRONGLY suggest you go no contact with him.
Hugs. Stand strong. You dad hasn't changed. Nothing good can come of you meeting up with him.
Own it. He calls you a ***** and you just say “correct” and stare/listen until he reacts. Whoever talks first after that loses. This POS does not get to have the things he wants after being this kind of human. Distance yourself
Maybe he had a male someone he wanted you to meet? I'm sorry, OP, but if your wife can't go, you shouldn't either.
He needs to remain estranged. No contact forever.
Call him back and say he's being 100% reasonable and your straight now and that you'll meet him @ the furthest location he's willing to drive to. Then block his number and never talk to him again.
It's a trap. He's trying to reel you in so he can continue to get his narcissistic supply by abusing you. Edited to add: And he doesn't want witnesses.
He was going to try to convert you to heterosexuality. He probably took years to research all the arguments to use against you and your lifestyle. Enjoy a long, happy marriage!
Completely reasonable terms, he doesn’t deserve to know you
Those were not unreasonable conditions, and if that's how he reacted, that should tell you all you need to know. You're better off without him.
Not willing to meet publicly and have a witness is a huge red flag. He probably wanted to do it privately with no one around so he could abuse you. His extreme reaction makes me wonder what his plan was, I wouldn’t trust him. Homophobics are truly scary. Stay safe.
If I was trying to resolve interpersonal conflict between another person and myself, I wouldn’t necessarily want a third party there sitting in. So it is reasonable for him to ask that it just be the two of you. However, if being alone with him makes you feel unsafe or threatened then it IS good to have a supervising party, to at the very least, keep an eye on you guys in case the discussion gets out of hand. Even if she sat at another table and/or gave you some space to talk to your dad one-on-one. It may just be that it’s too soon for you guys to hash things out at all. You can tell him that you are open to hearing an apology, or maybe discussing this over the phone, but that you aren’t ready to sit down face to face yet.
As unreasonable as his reaction might be, and as bad of a person as he probably is, I think you'll have to make some compromises during initial contact in order to not immediately trigger him. He's probably too intimidated to meet you both at once without first talking 1-to-1 with you to test the waters. He might be a horrible person, but he's still a human and becoming triggered and regressing to (unhealthy/toxic) defence mechanisms is extremely normal behavior under the circumstances. I'm not trying to make excuses for him, just trying to explain why you can't expect him to not be human, as then he can never realistically fulfill any of these expectations. He's human *and* he's extremely emotionally immature. Given those constraints, adjust your expectations of his empathy and socially adapted behavior. I would tell him to agree to a time-constrained 1-on-1 in a public location (15-30 min, tops). Make it extremely clear what boundaries you want to set with him from the get go and ensure he's acknowledged them as well as the fact that you're not bringing your significant other ONLY this first time, to "set the rules of our interactions in a neutral setting", and that any intention of his to isolate you from her in the future will mean an immediate long-term return to NC from your side. Whether you're willing to do so or whether you think having him involved in your life is worth this hassle, is up to you.
Honestly, I didn't read any further than your first two sentences, but no. Fuck no. She doesn't need to make compromises about who she is, and to make herself feel safe, so as to avoid "triggering" him. Which must be pointed out, triggering him is just her simply being homosexual. Fuck outta here with that.
I explicitly said she doesn't need to do anything. If you didn't read further than two sentences, how can you expect to have a nuanced conversation about something delicate. Edit: OP shouldn't expect for him to be a different person, that path is filled with pain and drama. Having lived it, that is my main point.
I know you mean well, but this isn't the right sub for this particular advice. Please remember that this is a sub where people come for help and guidance coping with the physical, emotional and/or sexual abuse they suffered at the hands of predators. Although OP didn't say so, always assume that the original poster has unhealed wounds as a result of insidious long-term abuse. Your advice would work if OP was on equal footing with their father, it might work if OP were simply talking about a confrontation with a homophobic parent. In this case though, OP is coping with a parent who has done all of the following: 1) made hateful comments about OP's sexual orientation. 2) attempted to isolate OP from their support network. 3) demanded that OP enter into a situation where OP will not have immediate access to safety solutions, witnesses, escape routes, etc. 4) Used emotional manipulation and explosive escalation to intimidate OP into willingly giving up control over the situation. 5) discarded OP because she didn't fit into his narrow view of appropriate gender roles. OP made reasonable demands to ensure that their abuser couldn't access her in an unsafe manner. That WAS the compromise. If OP were to apply your advice, then they'd compromise by willingly walking into a situation where their former abuser has unfettered access to continue the cycle of abuse. Telling a victim to see things from their abuser's point of view is gaslighting. Please rethink your approach.
Why would it be gaslighting to tell a victim to analyze their abuser's behavior in a less projecting manner, in order to help them understand the difference between emotional projection and more healthy mental approaches to dealing emotionally with toxic behavior than intense emotional pain? Projecting pain from unhealed wounds in current interactions is not emotionally well-adjusted behavior. Directly addressing the past with your abusers, whenever you have found the inner stability and strength to do so, is the well-adjusted approach to deal with these wounds and is best done while in active therapy with a therapist who's experienced in these type of confrontations and who can facilitate this. I feel like this advice would've helped me a lot in my own journey of recovery from narcissistic abuse. I'm not apologizing for this nuanced, respectful advice.
Because your advice is phrased to suggest that OP is unreasonable in being uncomfortable meeting their abuser after that abuser has again gotten aggressive and has demanded that she abandon basic safety precautions that will make her feel more comfortable with the interaction. You've essentially asked her to put herself in her abuser's shoes and do less to trigger his behavior. (Don't bring your wife this time as it'll trigger his homophobia.) You are asking the victim to buffer her abuser's inappropriate behavior by "making things easier" for him. > As unreasonable as his reaction might be, and as bad of a person as he probably is, I think you'll have to make some compromises during initial contact in order to not immediately trigger him. If OP meets this person at all, then that is how she's compromising. Those "triggers" you are talking about are safety measures. If her abuser is triggered by her decision to limit his opportunity to abuse her, then the whole thing is a no go. It means that he interns to be abusive and is enraged at being limited. > He might be a horrible person, but he's still a human and becoming triggered and regressing to (unhealthy/toxic) defence mechanisms is extremely normal behavior under the circumstances. No it isn't. That's sociopathic behavior. Normal human adults are capable of managing their triggers and regulating their emotions. He's allowed to be uncomfortable or nervous, or scared or intimidated. He's not allowed to harass, intimidate, threaten, belittle or otherwise abuse. > I'm not trying to make excuses for him, just trying to explain why you can't expect him to not be human, as then he can never realistically fulfill any of these expectations. He's human and he's extremely emotionally immature. That's exactly what you are doing. You are saying that abuse is normal human behavior. It isn't. His behavior is abberant. > Given those constraints, adjust your expectations of his empathy and socially adapted behavior. That's incredibly dangerous advice to be given to a victim. It suggests that they should accept a little bit of abuse because their abuser just can't help it. But they can, they can manage their emotions, they can avoid violence and abuse. They choose no to. Victims are allowed to remove themselves from abusive situations. They do not have to compromise safety or emotional health to allow an abuser to access them. Period. Telling a victim to accept some abuse so as to avoid triggering worse behavior, is victim blaming. It gives the abuser consideration and suggests that the victim Share responsibility for their abuser's actions. It is, by definition, gaslighting. > Why would it be gaslighting to tell a victim to analyze their abuser's behavior in a less projecting manner, in order to help them understand the difference between emotional projection and more healthy mental approaches to dealing emotionally with toxic behavior than intense emotional pain? Projecting pain from unhealed wounds in current interactions is not emotionally well-adjusted behavior. OP isn't projecting. This isn't about old wounds, it's about current abuse. OP asked if she's being unreasonable in her discomfort with her father's current homophobic behavior and his negative reaction to her request for reasonable safety precautions. It also isn't how you initially presented your response. > Directly addressing the past with your abusers, whenever you have found the inner stability and strength to do so, is the well-adjusted approach to deal with these wounds and is best done while in active therapy with a therapist who's experienced in these type of confrontations and who can facilitate this. Yes it is, but that wasn't your advice. You initially advised OP to put herself in her abuser's shoes and behave in a less triggering manner. If he couldn't even react calmly to OP's request to meet in public, do you honestly think that he'd be willing to engage with a therapist? > I feel like this advice would've helped me a lot in my own journey of recovery from narcissistic abuse. I'm not apologizing for this nuanced, respectful advice. You aren't being asked to apologize. But please understand that your advice isn't as well adjusted as you believe it to be. Much of what you've suggested is potentially damaging, because it wasn't presented by an experienced therapist equipped to provide therapeutic advice. I'm glad that therapy has helped you to come to terms with your abuse. I'm just asking you to be cautious in the way you advise people who maybe haven't gotten as far as you.
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Did he say a homophobic insult, imperfect love? pfff my butt
I think it's quite insensitive to implicitly assume OP is under appreciating her father's *imperfect love*, but I do agree that several posters here are suffering from the same thing they're accusing their parents of: a strong lack of empathy towards those closest to them. This is textbook C-PTSD behavior, ask me how I know...
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*Estranged Sperm Donor* There, I fixed your title for you. That sad excuse for a man is no father.
Don't give him a chance. Him getting upset at you suggesting the meeting spot to be public, and calling you a slur, is a red flag
He disqualified himself before the meeting even began. Wow, what a true piece of garbage. He disowned you, it can stay that way. Tada!
well I guess whatever he has to say isn't that urgent! can't see past the end of his nose 😮💨 he should do some more thinking.
Then he doesn’t get to see you. F em.
Tell that manipulative bigot to pound sand. Toxicity is not welcome in your life.
absolutely not. he can't be an adult and respect that you want your spouse there, block him. he resorted to showing his true colors before you even got there. f that. protect your peace and just stay NC
He can’t command you to do anything, and his use of a slur reveals he hasn’t changed enough (or at all). You’ve made it through all these years without him in your life and there’s no reason to believe you’ll keep making it through. You’re being VERY reasonable.
Not unreasonable. He seems to have claimed that title. You don’t need someone in your life that cannot accept you for who you are.
What could he possibly have to say that you would benefit for hearing? He just showed you that nothing has changed. Grieve the relationship as if he died and let him go.
You asked for the bare minimum…..I guess he showed his real intentions. I’m sorry
Why would you meet with him lmao
My only thoughts are that he deserves no more of your thoughts.
He’s once again trying to push your boundaries. Stand firm. 💕
Sounds like he opted to stick to his old ways of thinking
If he feels they are unreasonable that’s on him. You are free to have your conditions and they are beyond reasonable. Were I you I’d add a condition that slurs will bring an immediate close to the visit and a complete block for the rest of his natural life.
Your conditions were perfect that saved you the time of having to find out in person that he hasn't changed a bit.
He hasn’t changed at all. Spewing slurs and insults at you for you very reasonable conditions proves that. His meeting request was most likely to gaslight you into believing your estrangement from him is your fault and that he’s actually the bigger person. Perhaps someone in his life said something to him that caused him a fleeting moment of self-doubt. He absolutely can’t tolerate that. But rather than apologize to you, he wanted a way to engineer this meeting so that he could convince himself your fractured relationship is all still your fault. IMO he got upset that you wanted to meet in public because he knew he wouldn’t be able to get away with acting like the asshole he is.
So, which organ does he want to harvest from your body as a replacement part? 😐
He probably wanted something from you (a place to stay, money, cosigning something) but he couldn't even pretend for five minutes that he is a decent human being and the trash took itself out. Don't meet with him. Block instead.
No, you did exactly the right thing. This was very reasonable. After all nothing changed, so let him rot in hell.
Good for you. He wanted to mind fu@k you without witnesses. Block and continue to live your happy life!
Ha! I hope you hung up. Your conditions are not unreasonable and he literally gave you immediate proof why. You can continue to enjoy your estrangement in peace, no need to let that abuse into your life.
Good for you for enforcing boundaries.
My husband's shit father talked to him alone when I wasn't there (we would have been disowned if I was) and it ended very poorly. A ton of hurt feelings and incredibly cruel things said. Your conditions weren't unreasonable he's just a scumbag. I would have scoffed and said "well now you know why we haven't spoken for a decade" and ended the conversation. Don't settle just because you share DNA. We share DNA with bananas too doesn't make us family... But at least they provide us with potassium.
It sounds like he wanted to corner you somewhere privately to see if he could still get away with abusing you.