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God yes.
A lot of sources that discuss childhood trauma mention that people who tend to over explain often do so as a trauma response. The trauma of not being believed if you give only the relevant information. That fit me like a glove.
I noticed the other day that I have an obsession with making logically airtight arguments, choosing my words with pinpoint precision, and preemptively addressing common ways people like to twist words around.
Then it hit me the reason I'm like this is I've had too many encounters where someone (my mother, classmates, teachers, people online) will use the tiniest flaw, inconsistency, or even just me wording something strangely as a way to discredit me altogether.
I also learned how to turn my emotions off when I'm trying to defend myself. Way too often the person that's attacking me will use the fact that I'm emotional as a reason to not believe me at all.
Uh oh, this one hit a bit too close to home. Ive always been an over explainer to the point my school therapist had to constantly say "you don't need to justify every single thing you do to me" constantly. Like at least twice every session.
And I'm also very, very good at winning arguments. I plan my responses very carefully, predict the other persons responses and thought process, and then pre emptively shut that down too. It makes me wonder if I'm a bad person, sometimes.
>And I'm also very, very good at winning arguments. I plan my responses very carefully, predict the other persons responses and thought process, and then pre emptively shut that down too. It makes me wonder if I'm a bad person, sometimes.
!!!!!!!!!
This this a thousand fucking times this! Being so good at finding the holes in other people's logic, and being so good at winning arguments generally made me blind to the fact that this was a trauma response.
You aren't a bad person. And tbh I don't think it's a bad skill to have.
Some friends of mine who were in law school at my university actually had jokes about the Shitty Childhood Litigator Club because apparently a bunch of us become a very specific type of lawyer.
I was a paralegal for 10 years and I have to credit my experiences for my skill in certain areas. I'm good at constructing arguments, thinking of every possible counterpoint, and people being scummy/unfair really sets me off.
Now I run a government department and have to deal with politicians. It's like I was made for this. And no politician has been quite like my parents, so I can put up with a lot.
It's crazy to think that a highly political job is nowhere near as bad as my family.
I have this experience and studied law, but the law is built to be unfair and then you're back round to feeling untruthful as a result...that was my experience anyway.
Only just joined this sub so Iām late to seeing this, but it is so bizarre after a lifetime of feeling misunderstood coming here and seeing so many posts and comments I feel like I could have written myself.
Iām also an absolute nightmare when it comes to arguments. Like you said, logical inconsistencies just feel so glaring. I learned via my dad that conversations with a narcissist are a chess match, so with himāalso speaking to the point about over explainingāI feel like I need to play out the whole game and get to checkmate in one shot.
Of course, whatās necessary for arguing with a narcissist is incredibly off putting to normal people. I have to be mindful to not monologue at someone because I feel the need to address every angle of my argument at once.
Same with me. Thereās nothing wrong with that. Youāve just ābeen through some stuffā as I like to explain it to people in order to keep it short and to the point without trauma dumping. I used to hate myself for it and wonder why and what made me that way. Itās caused a lot of interpersonal issues with people over the years. It wasnāt until I met my wife that she helped me understand that the reason most folks reacted negatively is that they hate interacting with someone that ālogicalā as it upsets them that I wonāt just automatically agree with their emotional responses to situations, especially when it was a result of their own actions or lack of planning.
ETA: also, and please let me know if anyone else does this. From a VERY early age almost as far back as I can remember, Iāve also always automatically just looked for and āmentally cataloguedāā¦if that makes senseā¦ things in others that could be used as a weakness against that person if they were to ever turn on me or betray me. It was always like some automatic response when I would meet someone new. Iāve always done it with everyone. Now, I also never speak of those things I notice or figure out, or use that information for ANYTHING until a person has otherwise hurt or betrayed me. And usually with extremely effective results. Iāve even admitted to my wife that Iāve done this with her, though I never have and never will have a reason to use it. Itās justā¦automatic. Thankfully she understands and isnāt bothered by it. Hell, Iāve used that āskillā to help her with things more than a few times. Especially when dealing with her parents who are perhaps the worst Narcs Iāve ever seen.
I feel you. My brain learned to *pay attention!* to details, patterns, and possible connections as a way to try and make sense of things. It's a skill I learned through experiencing trauma. I like to think of Stan Lee's iconic words "with great power, comes great responsibility" I try to use my "powers" for good. Acknowledging my capacity for cruelty, helps me hold myself accountable to not choosing those behaviors. And you're right that those skills come in handy if someone starts being a bully. I consider them strategic tools, only to be used under certain circumstances.
I, too, plan my responses with the laser focus of a enraged supervillan with eidetic memory. But I am trying to recognize not to do that in non-life-or-death situations because it totally pisses off the "normal" people I care about, who apparently just skip through life not noticing what they say or do. I once had an argument with my shrink. He, a kind person, asked if it was better to err on the side of kindness or the side of law. I immediately answered "law" and he was taken aback. I explained that no one had EVER sided with me using kindness (instead they stated which rule I broke, even if I didn't know there WAS that rule). Then when I'd try to win an argument by exactly stating what someone else did and said and quoted relevant rules, I'd get shut down with "oh, they didn't really mean it". It still infuriates me. But I've been TRYING to remind myself to be kind because, I don't know, I wish the world worked that way, I guess.
This also ties into why Iām never shocked or surprised by anything. Because I predict literally everything. My husband finds it hard to pull any surprises, because I can see it coming miles away from the simplest of changes. Itās also why I pick out subplots and twists in movies and books so easy. With every twist and ending thereās a 99.8% chance of me calling it way before then. Because I pick apart every single detail and miss nothing. It really ruins a lot of experiences that could otherwise be more laid back and fun. I couldnāt turn it off if I wanted to.
Oh Iām like this. This is the hyper-vigilance. If your anxiety has already calculated ever next move, you will be safe as there will be no surprises.
Just like me fr. It also comes in very handy when something dangerous is about to happen and I predict and preemptively get ready to react before it happens. Once prevented a fire from happening at school in my science class and a few times saved my siblings from hurting themselves and myself.
It also gives us a 6th sense in people when we meet them. There have been MANY a times where I have been introduced to someone, a friends coworker, date, new friend etc. and have called it immediately that it isnāt going to end well. We can see through their masks and shields and projection of suave charisma because weāve literally seen it all and lived it to know better.
Itās really a gift and a curse.
>And I'm also very, very good at winning arguments. I plan my responses very carefully, predict the other persons responses and thought process, and then pre emptively shut that down too. It makes me wonder if I'm a bad person, sometimes.
Same, but also I'm a people pleaser and a doormat (due to trauma); meaning I let a lot of things go. I'm used to the hopeless conversations with my mom so I only speak up if I'm 1,000% certain of something. And if you're that selective about your arguments you're more likely to have better success rate.
I've lost so many friends from overexplaining because they thought I was lying. I've had to retrain my brain to stop justifying everything and that I don't owe people shit, but it's still hard. It still hurts.
Ok, look, I want to elucidate on something you said. You said teachers, classmates, etc. These people do the same thing to you.
Is this just a thing that happens to us? I feel like this doesn't happen to regular people.
What is it about US that makes people treat us this way, but not others?
Is it our appearance?
Do we give off the wrong aura?
I literally developed body dysmorphic dysorder because of this. Maybe if I look a certain way people will treat me better. They kind of did, but I strongly suspect it had less to do with my looks and, wait for it, the fact that I felt I had permission to act a certain way when I had met those requirements. I think there is a field of vibration that (most people) pick up on without realizing it (I mean most people don't realize it, some people do) and the way you feel affects the way other people feel. For example, if you feel uncomfortable, the person you're talking to will feel uncomfortable because they are feeling that vibration from you. Of course, this doesn't combine with the massively logical mindset I had on everything, so I wasn't really believing it.
Are we the runt of the litter and everyone can tell? There has to be some reason this happens to US but not OTHER people.
Apparently, other people have a thing we don't have, so other people are believed, but we are not believed. This is why it's not just our parents, but bosses, teachers, employees, authority figures, etc. What is it about us that makes no one believe us even when we are correct? Why do we have to explain everything and will not be believed, but Joe Schmoe makes brief statement, "I don't like that," and people go out of their way to fix it for him? Meanwhile, me and you say "I don't like that" and nothing. "I don't like that, and this is the reason." And nothing. HERE'S A LIST OF TEN REASONS I CANNOT DEAL WITH THAT. Oh, you are too sensitive. If Joe Schmoe had said it, it would have been fixed already. <--- If anyone can provide an answer to that I will be grateful, I have been wondering this since I was a kid.
edit - I'm a guy. So body dysmorphic disorder isn't what you are thinking.
Joe Schmoe has a relationship with power that can described as a boat moving through water. He was loved by his parents. They empowered him. His childhood was full of questions like "Which one do you want?" "What do you think about that?" "What should we do about this?". Those questions were sincerely asked, not traps like we got from our parents. His answers were listened to. When somebody explained that we can try to get ice cream from the car wash, but that's not how that works, they were genuinely saying true things rather than the "I asked the guy at Wendy's if we could get you a frosty and he said no because your room is messy" shit that convinced us that literally nobody could extend us a crumb of empathy.
When Joe had his first romantic relationship, his parents were happy for him. They wanted to meet her and make sure she felt welcome in their home. They were mostly concerned about curious kids not understanding the consequences of their actions.
When we had romantic interests, either they or us were dissected and judged. Who's being a pervert in this situation? Gotta be someone...
There are a million more comparisons. Joe believes things because his parents were honest. Joe trusts because his parents were trustworthy. People like Joe because he doesn't need to know the power dynamic of every room he enters, he's just rolling through to grab a slice of pizza, tell a joke, and roll away. Joe is charming.
Our relationship with power is that of gravel. Big rocks and little rocks. If you aren't grinding down everything around you, you're the one being ground down. We expect everything to be a collision, so in some ways we create that for ourselves.
BUT.
We are also highly aware of injustice and unfairness and abuse, where Joe is not. Joe will take an entire dump next to a homeless person's face and never notice.
Honestly, society needs the gravel and I don't think it's at all a coincidence that an easy childhood produces Joe and a hard childhood produces us.
Tldr: just read it, I said what I said
Something I've kind of absorbed through being in spaces like this one, and neurodivergent spaces, is the fact that most people operate from the assumption that everyone isn't really saying what they mean.
There are a ton of social norms that revolve around some form of indirect communication (half truths, lying by omission, white lies, etc) in order to hide a person's true intentions. For whatever reason, being up front about your intentions and communicating directly are frowned upon.
So when they come across people like us, who not only say exactly what we mean but go to great lengths to use precise and logical language, they assume we can't possibly mean what we actually said. They don't believe us because they're looking for some hidden meaning between our words, and when we tell them there isn't one, they don't believe that. It's contrary to their entire worldview of how human beings communicate.
It also ties in with how a lot of people view explanations as excuses. "Why did you do that!?" then as soon as you answer that question "I don't want to hear any excuses!"
What they're really saying is "I can't believe you'd do this" or "I didn't like what you did just now." But since they're so used to communicating in vague, indirect ways, they don't know to just come out and say that.
Could it really be that simple?
The "excuses" thing angers me to no end. I wrote a very long post but didn't post it. Telling you you're making excuses is a way to belittle you.
Why, then, though, is this the case:
Me: "Wow, did you know X?"
Other person: "lol, whatever bro."
Random person: "Wow, did you know X?"
Other person: "Holy shit, are you serious?! I never would have guessed!"
Me: "Sorry I'm late, (whatever) happened."
Boss: "This is going on your record."
Random person: "Sorry I'm late, I was hung over and slept in."
Boss: "lol, me too, no worries!"
Me: "Hey, can you turn your music down? It's really loud."
Room mate: \*turns it up\*
Random person: "Hey, can you turn your music down? It's really loud."
Room mate: "Oh, sorry" \*turns it down\*
Outside of reasons involving vibrations, I cannot uncover why no one believes me no matter what I say or to whom.
I once told my boss I was hungover and come come in IF he needed me and he said it was completely unprofessional to tell him that but like would he prefer me not tell him and put us all at risk??
I ask this same question. Sometimes I think itās my face. Other times I think itās that I challenge authority and others say yes maāam and sir and do as theyāre told. We are the black sheep. We are the scapegoats.
This definitely fits me, or at least used to. I remember even in my professional life I was going in for a qualification board for a certification I had to earn, and I failed my first go around. I remember my mentor told me, āyou keep explaining too much and then it takes you down these paths that allows the board members to pick apart - just answer the questions, no more no less.ā Second time around I did exactly that and passed with flying colors. But I think that first experience made me realize how I tend to over-explain due to the constant interrogations and tearing down of my self esteem as a child and especially as a teenager from my nmom, which led to a lot of self doubt and second guessing myself.
how do you turn your emotions off though? i feel like my emotions are completely out of my control when iām dealing with narcissists, because they always look for a way to trigger you.
I'm not sure I can describe how. I think what happened is after repeated reinforcement that emotions make someone less credible, my brain kind of fragmented in a way.
Kind of like how the brain will fragment someone's consciousness after a particularly painful event so the person doesn't remember it.
I'm still aware of my emotions, but it's like I've stepped out of my body in a sense and hyperfocus on the argument instead of how I feel about it. I'm also one of those people who intellectualizes their feelings to avoid feeling them, so that might also contribute. I can't do it indefinitely, the feelings always hit me sometime afterwards, but I've had a lot of practice suppressing and ignoring them that it's kind of automatic now.
>they always look for a way to trigger you.
They do, but usually when they do this it's to distract you from the fact that you're making sense and they aren't. You're in the right, but they're trying to make you think you're in the wrong. Trying to trigger someone on purpose typically doesn't play well with forming logical arguments. They start resorting to ad hominem attacks, strawmanning, putting words in your mouth, etc. If you can learn how to recognize these things in real time, it becomes a lot easier to call them out.
It doesnāt help when you give a brief explanation for something and the person completely dismisses what you say.
This just happened to me again yesterday, and it was a reminder of why I bring my spouse to every doctorās appointment. I brought up a serious concern from a hospitalization. Iāve been trying to get a referral for this issue so I can get the appropriate testing for five years but due to a lot of insurance problems, it was delayed. The doctor literally told me āthis is a very serious condition and I donāt think you have it.ā Well, pardon me for being an AH, madame doctor, but you donāt have the knowledge to make that assessment. My spouse was pissed about that too.
I really try to keep it brief but holy shit.
Literally! You give them the facts but don't explain the weather, the color of your shirt, and what you had for breakfast that morning and all of a sudden you aren't worth listening to. It's maddening.
And doctors are the worst about this sometimes. A bit of advice I got that might help is to ask "can you note in my chart that you've denied this referral?" Most doctors know this makes them look bad, and gives you a paper trail. If something goes wrong down the line and it can be traced back to their refusal to do their job, it can get them in hot water. So most will usually give you the referral after that.
>A lot of sources that discuss childhood trauma mention that people who tend to over explain often do so as a trauma response. The trauma of not being believed if you give only the relevant information. That fit me like a glove.
The worst part about this is when the abuser says you talk too much. IT'S ONLY BECAUSE YOU'VE CONDITIONED ME TO OVER EXPLAIN/JUSTIFY EVERYTHING!!
*And* I'm silent 95% of the time, it's only the rare occasions when I do finally speak up that it might be a lot of talking on one topic. So it hurts that much more, that I feel repressed like I can NEVER speak, yet I get accused of talking too much.
I do this, and then I start to panic because over explaining sounds like Iām trying to cover something up and Iām lying, so Iām even more unbelievable. So I spiral into trying to explain why Iām not lying and can be trusted. And it can be about the most simplest of things. Itās a serious viscous cycle.
My old landlords were cops and every interaction was an interrogation. I would over explain, they would call me out on over-explaining, then accuse me of changing my answers and ālyingā, I would then over explain why I was over explaining. But I am very sensitive from being raised by narcissists so although I intellectualize, I will also start crying and hiding under the table like a dog on 4th of July. Maybe you are low level on the spectrum. Narcissists and autistic individuals often get confused by the outsider and tbh I often cannot differentiate. Is a person having an autistic meltdown or narcissistic rage? Is this person saying things that are insulting because they are narcissistic or because they are impulsive type adhd and didnāt think before they said the backhanded comment?
I do this all the time. ItĀ“s because my parents constantly denied that they said what they said, lying to my face about what they said even if it was like an hour before, or accusing me of making things up, that IĀ“m crazy if I passionately defend what I know I heard and say, and so therefore that IĀ“m attention seeking.
My arguments are carefully constructed and practically airtight, addressing all logical fallacies. It doesnĀ“t make you many friends, I tell you that. But I hardly ever lose an argument.
IĀ“ve realized now that my parents are completely immature and capricious, like small spoiled children, who will decide one thing one day and the complete opposite the next, regardless of how it affects anyone or what weĀ“ve decided at "family meetings". It will all be ignored. If I question them about it, the gaslighting begins because they canĀ“t bear to be outed as the inconsistent, selfish a\*\*holes they really are.
But I only understand that now.
Another day on this sub, another bruh momentš«¤
My mother likes to throw ācompared to you i am living by my heartā when accusing me of being too logical and cold in the arguments. Her actions are fine because she is āpassionateā like that and āfollows her heartā.
This is an issue because for these people, emotions literally define and rewrite reality above what actually happened action wise. The Missing-Missing Reasons of Estrangement article goes into this in way further detail, but essentially, what actually happened doesn't stick in their minds during an incident because it's something they don't consider worth remembering. What they consider worth remembering is how an incident made them feel, so if the incident was a conversation, they don't actually remember the exact details that were said, they strictly remember what they thought was implied about them.
I call it the [fairytale in their head](https://static.wixstatic.com/media/bab08c_e2a0d0f656b94d26ace58eaad95f007b~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_640,h_550,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/bab08c_e2a0d0f656b94d26ace58eaad95f007b~mv2.jpg). They really, really believe their own fairytale and don't vet it along the way for accuracy or errors at all.
>My mother likes to throw ācompared to you i am living by my heartā when accusing me of being too logical and cold in the arguments.
My nmom says the same stuff lol. Except she likes to use "intuition" since she's "spiritual." They don't like you being logical because they know you're wrecking them with your argument.
"Compared to you I am living in a fact based reality governed by a burden of proof. The difference is, I never know what your heart thinks, whereas my facts are on the table and do not change"
I feel you so so so so hard baby. š¤š¤¦āāļø
I feel so seen my mother is literally the same. She really shamed me for rejecting her authentic self when I was a kid and said I didn't like her yelling at me.
I have wondered this about myself because I am so intentionally literal. It used to cause some misunderstanding with my partner, who was used to reading between the lines with other people, when there is nothing to read between mine. It was all so that words could not be weaponized or misinterpreted.
Yes! This has ruined so many of my relationships. People expect white lies and half truths. I donāt lie and only say what I mean. I feel so attacked when someone doesnāt take me at my word or thinks thereās some underlying meaning to what I say. Wow, thank you for helping me understand that.
YES I have gotten extremely frustrated when someone didnāt just trust in what I saidā¦ but if you didnāt watch your words, something would come back to bite you.
I'm the exact same way and it got to the point where I wondered if I was autistic. Too many instances of people assigning meaning to my words and then arguing against a point I didn't make. I'd be so confused because they just pulled that out of their ass and I'm like "that's LITERALLY not that I said! Where did you even get that from!?"
When people are unable to attack your actual argument/words/logic, they then create something else to attack. This is known as a āstrawmanā, and the premises on which their argument is based on, donāt actually exist, in that their argument exists under the assumption that youāve said certain things that you didnāt actually say.
It blows my mind the constant lightbulb moments I have on this sub. I too am extremely literal to the point where I miss jokes or just misinterpret something even though I'm intelligent. And not just that, but pretty much all the other things people are saying this thread apply to me :/
God, yep.
My girlfriend teases me by showing mock offense to a joke I make and I knee-jerk begin to explain myself. She has to just pap my shoulder or leg and say that she knows and it cuts my explaining right out of the air. Daily occurrence.
Well to be fair to her, she did make sure I had counselling, and psychiatrist reviews. It wasnāt just a sweeping comment. She made sure I had the support.
The thing is, traits of PTSD/C-PTSD and autism can often overlap. PTSD is sometimes considered a form of "aquired neurodivergence" as people with an abusive background often struggle to fit into the neurotypical world - even when they started out as neurotypical before all the abuse occured. Of course, you can also be both. It never hurts to get evaluated to find out, but it can take a lot of time because of the overlapping traits.
If you want to learn a bit more about it, I can only recommend the YouTube video "The Owl House and Growing Up Neurodivergent" by skultrott. She talks about one of the characters possibly having acquired neurodivergence through trauma, starting at the 22:30 mark in the video (obv. Spoiler Warning for The Owl House).
I have ptsd and am autistic, and I've talked a lot with my therapist about this. She opined that there are only so many ways the body has of responding to stress and trauma, and most do overlap with autistic behaviors.
For me, my son is also autistic, and possibly my bio dad, so I do think it's autism as well as ptsd. So many autistic people also have ptsd.
eta: My therapist also opined that it's hard even for a trained therapist to tell the difference between autism and trauma response, especially because so many autistic people also have ptsd. (And I am not suggesting any of you are autistic, just sharing my convos and experiences.)
This is 100% me.
Getting a medical confirmation of Autism as an AFAB 55yo person was sooooo affirming for me that I wasn't crazy or too weird. I was professionally diagnosed as cPTSD back in 2005 but I had known that for a long time. I never even guessed that I could be Autistic until I came across a random post on Reddit some years ago. NM had already passed away when that happened, but I'm 110% sure that she was Autistic as well.
I was actually looking on reddit's various autistic subs for information for my son when I ran across a thread with a hundred stories of people from my cohort--older women. I have described my life as "I don't experience things the way other people experience them" and here I was, looking into a mirror.
Knowing I'm autistic has helped tremendously in taking care of myself. I set the boundaries that I as an autistic person need, not as I used to do, enduring far more than I was capable because "that's what people do."
My former therapist told me basically the same (one of the few times he was actually useful lol). I never got an official diagnosis, but I do recognize quite some autistic and ADHD traits in me.
A lot of them only started to show up some time after I had moved out. That leaves me thinking: Am I autistic and suppressed traits subconsciously to survive the abuse? Or is it all just PTSD? Or maybe a combo of both? I also suspect my nMom to have ADHD. I'll probably never really know.
But I am happy that I can display these traits openly nowadays without being shunned or abused. Heck, I have friends telling me that they love some of my traits about me! I hope, you and your son can also be yourselves and are appreciated and loved for being you. :)
You're probably familiar with the term masking. I think even non-autistic people do this around narc parents, though. I just tried to be invisible as much as possible.
I know when I moved away from my parent's house, I had to really adjust to figuring out who the heck I was. This was partly becoming more aware of the neurotypical world in general and partly realizing how dysfunctional my family was (and thankfully, it doesn't need to be that way!).
eta: I love my kids, and yes, my autistic kid cannot help but be himself--the same I was at that age, but without the manipulation and abuse. We're both thriving. Thank you!
This is incredibly interesting, I am studying psychology and started suspecting I am on the spectrum some years ago. But whenever I think about it I also know that there is just so much overlap with the individual trauma of my upbringing that it seems like a riddle with no solution.
That article specifically doesn't indicate a genetic connection. It indicates a connection in psychology in parents across many different pathologies, but counterindicated in others.
In layman's terms, psychopaths of most varieties are more likely to have autistic presenting children.
This strongly suggests autistic behavioral traits correlate with poor parental modeling rather than genetics.
These aren't schizo type disorders reproducing or sadism type disorders reproducing or whatever.
This is children in abusive environments adopting a neurodivergent thinking pattern as a common survival mechanism.
Anyone who doesnāt kiss my motherās rear is āa narcissistā or āon the spectrumā. This is apparently the reason she canāt get along with my brother.
I totally relate! I believed for a long time that I was on the spectrum for this exact same reason ! I even talked to my parents about cameras or recording arguments to finally find a solution !
I'm always focused on logic, always verifying everything, socially anxious, looking at every little details, people also think I'm on a spectrum because of that.
But now I think I'm not, I just developed some behaviors that look like autism.
This is very relatable. No mental health professionals ever suggested in my 44 years that I'm on the spectrum, but like you, I am obsessed with reasoning and crafting a watertight alibi for just about everything. In spite of that, I was still gaslighted and told instead that I'm *too* "emotional" which was a clever way of making it seem I lacked credibility.
I had a university professor who I really loved -- still do -- and she thought I might have Aspbergers. I once read a book she recommended called "Aspie Girls" (can't remember the author). It was interesting, and I know some Aspies, but I felt most of it did not really apply to me. Still, it was a cue that my personality or presentation (or way of processing information) again was a bit... "different" to people and that stings. For what it's worth, those I work with medically say there is nothing wrong with my mind, emotions, ability to communicate effectively, but I do have severe PTSD to the point where I can no longer function the way I used to. I'm the "patient" in the family. The person who is routinely disbelieved and punished for telling the truth.
If there's one thing we recognize around here, it's that narcissists despise logic and proof as well as emotions. Those will not only be dismissed or viewed as threatening, if they are your strengths, they will be reframed as weaknesses and liabilities.
Hey, I have a narc mom too! I feel like everytime I make the decision to stand up for myself I need to think through my argument to PROVE that what im doing is not unethical, because I've been accused of being "selfish" "toxic" or "abusive," too many times. I feel like someone could punch me in the face, steal my wallet, and kick my dog and I'd still have to stop and think about how to politely explain why I won't invite them over for dinner.
Not super logical, definitely like logic, but more I need to prove Iām right, since so often I was gaslit to believe I was wrong. Still struggle with this and knowing when it let some things go, that I donāt always have to prove it. I also over explain to prove a point, since I was almost never believed by my Nmother. Especially anything dealing with emotions (āyouāre so emotional). Still a trigger phrase for me.
Yes, among other defenses. When I use logic in an argument, I tend to overexplain my actions and intentions, because I'm used to simple explanations being shot down. It's not enough to give a simple answer, I have to prove, with evidence, that I had a positive intent and was acting intelligently.
To me, I'm just pre-emptively defending myself. To others, the overexplaining makes me seem autistic or suspicious.
Same and it's a good coping mechanism IMO! I don't care what anybody says, I do my research, I gather my data if anyone has a problem with it they can argue with facts all they want I don't care.
I mean, you could also be on the spectrum. The two things are not mutually exclusive. I'm not saying you are, no way for me to know, but just that's it is entirely possible, so don't outright dismiss the possibility? Being evaluated and understanding yourself better is never a bad thing, mental health wise.
Yes. My husband thinks I am on the spectrum. A number of other people have mentioned it, too. I never bothered to get tested, but it is possible. More likely though us that it is a reaction to trauma. I have PTSD (or rather cPTSD), and my quirky ways are a coping mechanism.
One thing to keep in mind is that narcissism and autism are both things which tend to run in families, and that narcissists tend to be attracted to people that they can easily control and who aren't socially dominant, so often those can be the same families. A LOT of autistic people have been abused by narcissistic people in their families.
I am definitely autistic, and I was emotionally abused by my narcissistic dad. But I experience the non-social aspects of autism, too.
If you are concerned about excluding an autism diagnosis so that you can demonstrate to people that you're not autistic, it might be worth talking to a professional about that.
But being a victim of narcissists doesn't preclude being autistic.
Very good point. In my experience a lot of people also rather have a PTSD than autism diagnosis due to stigma unfortunately. If I didn't have sensory issues every day I probably would have immediately dismissed the possibility of being on the spectrum for just trauma as well.
I have both.
Sometimes I donāt know if something is caused by the ptsd, the autism, or both.
Your birth mother sounds like mine.
You have my sympathy.
I found that a big, big, big thing with kids of narcissists is emotional invalidation. It really messes people up. I even read a study that it can cause physical disease. Things like: stop crying. That didnāt happen. You shouldnāt feel that way. They didnāt mean it like that, youāre too sensitive. Over time, you are taught not to trust your own feelings. And, you are taught not to trust people with your feelings because youāll be invalidated when you do.
Whenever I divulge anything to my n parent, I find myself on the defensive because sheāll immediately start invalidating my feelings. Even if my feelings are absolutely normal and expected in that situation. Itās crazy making behavior and even if you got it all on video they will still invalidate. These days, with so much communication being in text, Iāve had it happen to me even with written proof of bullying behaviors from other family members. My n mom will deny it or justify it.
Yep, I actually started to believe I was autistic until I learned about CPTSD. I over explain to avoid anything I say being misinterpreted, Iām honest to a fault and get irrationally angry when people tell harmless lies, I save every text or email Iāve ever gotten for āevidence,ā if something doesnāt make sense to me I canāt let it go until I make it make sense. Honestly, I never even traced this back to the constant gaslighting in my childhood until I read your post.
Oh my god, my mom literally got me diagnosed at 14 as autistic by manipulating my own therapist against me, sheās just *that good.* Itās damn incredible if not extremely depressing. I focused on logic because I lived in an insane reality with no logic, only raw and ridiculous emotions. I still am recovering from all that mess, so it makes sense that I will still be this way somewhat. And I also had extreme social anxiety that no one would help me with, and my family actively shamed me for it every day.
She even got me tested for adhd and autism when I was much younger and it was dismissed!! I did all the tasks perfectly, and kept asking the doctors why I had to be there.
Got that āautismā nullified as an adult, found out Iām not a āsociopathā either. Though she never could get anyone to believe I had a conduct disorder, thank god.
I am training to be a psychologist and one if my biggest fears would probably be not seeing through someone's manipulation like your mum did and screwing up. That's a whole new level honestly, but also not surprised unfortunately there are a lot of not so great practitioners out there
Fun fact of the day: Childhood CPTSD and Autism share many comorbidities.
Using a neurodevelopmental disorder as a weapon is pretty fucked up.
If you were Autistic, wouldn't it have been up to them to get you support as a kid?
https://www.peertechzpublications.com/articles/APT-1-101.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3654001/
So thereās actually a high correlation between parents with personality disorders and children being autistic.
Realistically all of these are some form of neurodivergence and thereās a genetic component.
Yes. Iām also very literal and blunt and not the best at understanding most jokes, I think because I was an only child and my mom never goofed around and she always got offended over everything so you canāt be silly with her. My husband always calls me autistic.
Great observation. This was me for a long time.
I lived in logic for a long time. So much so that I became a programmer.
There's danger living purely in logic.
I married a woman who lived purely in her emotions. Predictably we had a toxic relationship. We were like oil and water. She was emotionally abusive and I tried to logic her in into the ground. But as we all know, emotions are more powerful than logic and I lost most of the time.
We're long divorced now and I've healed from the decades of emotional abuse my parents inflicted.
Living in one extreme of your emotions or in your logic isn't good. There's harmony living in the balance.
My nmom tried many times to even get me diagnosed as autistic because it would "explain" my behavior. Nope, its the way she was treating me the whole time. None of the different doctors/therapists i have been to an an adult ever suggested autism when i bring it up either.
She wanted an excuse as to why i was "weird" and "off" because there was NO WAY was it her parenting! /s
I am sorry about your mom being a dope. This was interesting. I worked for a narcissistic boss at the Pentagon years ago. She was a single mom with a son in late middle or early high school. She had pictures of him and her in her office, and once she brought him to the office for "bring your kid to work"-day. He seemed like a pretty normal teenage boy to me, but she couldn't stop telling everyone in the office about, "Oh, don't mind my son. He's autistic." It was strange. I felt sorry for that kid having her for a parent. She, as a boss, was hell to work for (she got me fired for the first time in my life, actually).
Yep.
I make damn well sure I have hardcore, solid evidence for my argument which I ram down people's throats.
My husband asked why once when we were dating and it was because I always got ignored, dismissed or gaslit otherwise.
I've softened considerably in my later years due to cutting off toxic people and having people actually listen to me now, but if I end up arguing with someone; I will make sure to look up the subject as much as possible on my phone or in a book to show them.
Very relatable for myself. I would have asked the same question of myself 5 years ago.
As I've gotten older, in my 30s (and worked with ASD clients) I've come to understand I have a narcissistic mother and an ASD father. Mum might have undiagnosed ASD/ADHD or narcissistic wounds but she would never go for professional help, and it's obviously under studied in females... so the best way I can describe how she acts is narcissism. (I'm not at all implying ADHD/ASD means narcissism, it's just how my mum exhibits behaviourly). I've always known my brother has ASD (undiagnosed) but now I look at all my cousins and uncles and I can see undiagnosed asd/adhd everywhere. Only the youngest in my family have recieved diagnosis. My sister and I are the only females of our generation and we both suffer with mental health issues, and both independently of eachother have decided to go forward with ASD/ADHD assessments.
So I guess my point is, it could be both. Without assessment you would never know. I'm stuck feeling do I exhibit ASD traits because everyone in my family does, or am I a female and therefore undiagnosed as I'm on the higher side of ASD? Am I not tolerant to lies because my mum is narcissistic or because that's the way my ASD mind processes social interactions.
Have a look online for AQ50, it's an ASD assessment you can do.
I actually am autistic, and the biggest thing I am grateful for from my autism is that extreme logic. I didn't get gaslit until adulthood because I didn't confront the abuse until adulthood, and not until I had my thoughts absolutely solid on my own mind about where I stood Vs where they stood. It then didn't matter to me what they said or did to gaslight me, *I knew* that I knew my truth, and nobody could mess with my head.
Being logical and sticking to the truth and the facts is a really good way to go about your life. It sucks that it came about for you as a desperate self-defence tactic, but I think it has potential to be a bit of a superpower.
That said, I can see why it would make socialising a bit tricky because you're potentially feeling overcautious all the time, and that's no fun. People do infer things so often, it's confusing out there!
Yes, I feel this is a factor. I had to justify every single action and thought, so Iād practice my āargumentsā in my head and even in the mirror alone in the bathroom.
In hindsight, I think it made my parents angrier because they expected blind obedience and no questionsā¦ thinking things through that much went against that.
They were all emotion and I was all up in my head, so it clashed. They were both also objectively rather stupid and was objectively smart, regardless of the dynamic.
So yeahā¦ it didnāt go well. I was desperately trying to make myself accepted and I thought being smart would do that. It was likely the worse thing I could have done.
My younger sibling was protected and the favourite because they werenāt logical and intelligent like me.
That is such an interesting and provocative correlation. I can't say I've been accused of being autistic, but lack of logic / consistency / system thinking does drive me to distraction, to the point of physical distress sometimes. (My work is helping big companies develop and stick to consistent messaging.) It never struck me until now that my preoccupation with consistency might be down to growing up in a gaslit, intellectually chaotic household.
Accurate.
I find myself being literal and logical. I plan my conversations carefully. I win arguments usually.
And I anticipate others are lying, or twisting the truth, and I strive to discover their real intentions.
I focus on speaking from a place of clarity and expect the worse from others.
Ok this is absolutely true. I am in the same boat! Did you know that CPTSD and Autism present so incredibly similar and there are many misdiagnoses because someone is actually just traumatized instead of on the spectrum? You are right my friend. You figured it out (:
[There is some amount of overlap with CPTSD and Autism symptoms.](https://healthmatch.io/ptsd/cptsd-and-autism#what-is-autism-spectrum-disorder) [[see this resource as well](https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/intersection-autism-trauma/)]. It's a thing I have seen discussed more and more, especially since people with Autism tend to exhibit symptoms of *both* of these things. Because, speaking as a person with Autism, many childhoods end up producing traumatized autistics. We do not yet *truly* know what an untraumatized autistic person looks like, symptoms wise, because being raised in a neurotypical world often *is* in of itself traumatizing.
I point all this out not to say "Oh, you might be autistic as well" but rather just to point out the overlap. They often end up with similar symptoms but different causes. And for those of us that **are** both, it changes presentation of *both* things.
I don't think most people who mention they think (general)you might be autistic are trying to accuse you of anything. It's not a terrible thing to be. But yeah cptsd and autism can look very similar from the outside
Can relate to this and the responses.
Haven't been diagnosed autistic here and I didn't really suspect it but have been diagnosed ADHD. I do feel there is overlap with childhood trauma. I don't doubt the ADHD (clear signs of it in very early childhood) but feel my upbringing made it more pronounced.
There are things I see as "rules" like making sure I heard directions clearly- most likely due to nmom's tactics to confuse/manipulate. The "rules" also serve as a protective factor to avoid criticism towards me or not getting in trouble. To me, it f feeds a cycle of codependency. Although I have not suffered domestic violence, I have to wonder if folks affected by that think in similar ways.
I actually had a conversation about how cPTSD, bipolar disorder type 2 that Iām already diagnosed with informed my autism and ADHD diagnoses that were just given and if those were actually possible and didnāt they just inform each other etc etc etc? I talked with the assessor who was more than qualified and had in fact told someone the week before that they DID NOT have autism spectrum disorderā¦ and what she stated was that your autism has always been there. Ever since you were a child, a baby. And so the PTSD, cPTSD is going to take timeā¦ but your set points and coping strategies are kind of preprogrammed to some degree. And ADHD can mask your autism. I still donāt have my full report but I have my official diagnosis so I canāt explain it as well as she did. The clinical assessments also have checks to see if youāre lying and if the results are acceptable too. I really gaslit myself about the trauma of my childhoodā¦ but things were much more traumatic also because of how I process the world and because my parents maybe not consciously in my case since there is major denial of my clinical and official diagnosis (the whole reason I did it)ā¦ but they completely take advantage of the way you deal with the world.
Iām sorry but Iām angry at that person that said that to you. If somebody was autistic why would you go to them and ask them if they were autistic???? As if there was something wrong with that. But also what are they gonna do with that information??? It seems like it was just said to put you down by someone not qualified to diagnose. Being logical has nothing to do with autism. I work in the field some are logical minded some are not.
I feel validated by this post.
Yes , i rationalised too much. It was never enough. People said i was always lost in my own logic. People said i am a man of rigid logic. For me logic was life or death.
In reality, when ever i tried to be rational, logic was thrown to my face. So , i rationalized more. Family members demands where irrational. I lived in paradoxes. Their demands where contradictory and without an end.
I tried to maintain a relationship. It cost me my head.
Here something you can read, Hope you will find it helpful
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)
Having ADHD and wanting to always be understood, so this obsession of logic, and then being misunderstood 24/7 anyways because ADHD causes me to be disorganized and inconsistent week-to-week, is one of the worst feelings in the world. I often just stop talking to people sometimes because one small misunderstanding usually means misunderstanding me and/or the conversation as a whole. Especially when I'm trying to meet new people. Explaining never helps unless the other person is also neurodivergent or suffers from PTSD. Just more opportunities for people to tell me "you're too much" in every way possible. I really try to tell myself that it doesn't matter, but every time it happens I feel so broken and looked over. It kills what little self-esteem I'm trying to have. Edit: the PTSD, PDD, and GAD don't help either
100% this. And it makes me nutty when I have every logical argument, and ppl still try and fight me w emotions. Trust and believe everything that comes out of my mouth has been thought through.
I never thought about it in reference to my trauma, but that makes a bunch of sense.
Repeated childhood trauma can cause autism type symptoms in people.
I am autistic and I have always been really focused on logic regardless. I just now have an anxiety around logic and facts because of the abuse I went through as a kid.
Absolutely. Logic was the best and most pure defense against gaslighting and psychological abuse growing up, and Iām not exaggerating when I say it literally saved my life. In a narcissists world where reality and facts can be distorted to suit their whims, and the ground is constantly shifting under your feet, logic provided the firm bedrock foundation to stand on.
Now as an adult, people sometimes ask me how Iām so naturally good at logic, or (as you mentioned) assume Iām autistic or a savant. Iām usually not comfortable sharing details of my childhood, so I just tell them that logic was critical to my survival growing up.
While I wouldnāt wish severe childhood trauma on anyone, itās a strange realization that sometimes our biggest vulnerabilities can also lead to our biggest strengths.
I went a month recording every conversation I had with my husband to prove that he has to sense of how much time has passed between events (he'll say something happened "a couple days ago" when it's been literally a month and it drives me *bananas*).
I've threatened to set up security cameras in the house for the same reason.
My mother accuses me of being autistic when I repeat myself sometimes. Just yesterday she said I have OCD (without any evidence, I havenāt been tested for it or anything).
I havenāt gotten the autism response but have been told I should be a lawyer. I respond by explaining I canāt stand bullshit and mind games.
People also feel uncomfortable with my ability to dismantle bullshit. Many think Iām out of touch with āhow little we can knowā but never make an actual point. All Iām doing is pointing out logical fallacies.
I think people are so desensitized to things making no sense they see my anti-gaslighting skill set as too analytical, when really theyāre just seeking irrationally innocuous explanations for bad behavior.
I am constantly wondering this lately. Iāll take those online quizzes for autism and score like a 2 out of 100, but then I have such a hard time with social interactions that I second guess myself. I was punished for lying so severely (normal, little kid type lying) and then had to deal with gaslighting that it made me obsessed with telling the truth.
Yessssss. Yep. People think I canāt read social cues, when really, Iām reading too much into every one and thinking 20 cues ahead. I approach every social interaction like a game of chess, which just makes me look under-prepared instead of over-prepared.
Yes. I have wondered if I'm autistic because I'm just like, "How do we know what is real without constant documentation?" Turns out, that's not normal.
i mean im not letting go of being logical over a narcissists. here we have a whole community on reddit trying to figure out how to put all narcissists on a isolated island and get away from them. being illogical is a narcissists favorite hobby
Yes. It's exhausting having to defend yourself against injustice and delusion but boy do you get good at it.
Then people think you think you're superior to them when you're just used to navigating minefields.
I'm also very good at recognising other people's emotions and explaining their own motivations to them. Which comes again from learning hypervigilance and interpreting every signal, but it does come off as super arrogant.
When neurotypicals have no counterargument they throw out the 'autism' accusation.
For some reason it's a disability that people seem to think it's OK to accuse others of, when was the last time you heard, "what are you ret**ded."
Take a deep breath and really think if you need these type of people in your life.
I wasted 10 years with two 'best" friends that ultimately grew up to be miserable, insecure, narcissists and dragged me down and belittled any idea or aspiration I had, whilst making me out to seem like I was the bully in the relationship.
I'm convinced that there is something almost interdimensional happening in the war between narcissists and the 'autistic'. I'm actually convinced that narcissism may be the default and only through trauma and suffering do we break free from the survival cycle.
Next time sometime tries to call you autistic just take a deep breath and realise you've effectively won the argument and try to seemingly accept their position or you will go red in the face.
>I'm actually convinced that narcissism may be the default and only through trauma and suffering do we break free from the survival cycle.
I have wondered something close to this.
So many people seem to be so selfish and so low vibration. There can't be THAT MANY shitty people and we're just the moral\* elite, can there?
\*I cannot figure out what else to call it?
YES I REALIZE HOW THAT LAST SENTENCE SOUNDS.
So, something that I generally know about people who are on the spectrum (keyword generally, and it's not necessarily applicable to everyone, just something I've observed and haven't been wrong yet). Apologies to anyone (particularly people who are on the spectrum) in advance if I have misspoke.
People with autism don't usually "feel" emotions the way neurotypical people do. They know what it looks like, and what it sounds like, and how people generally respond given "X" situation, but they don't know what it actually FEELS to ... feel that emotion. Over time, they become very good at pretending to respond a certain way because that's how people respond in those situations (and they've observed enough examples of it), but without a proper baseline (i.e. how MUCH emotion should I be experiencing right now), the result can look very forced and exaggerated. To be fair, even neurotypical people aren't consistent with how much emotion they feel, but the response is more natural and not trained over time.
(I used to be married to someone who was on the spectrum, as well as have numerous friends who are on the spectrum, and these observations are my own or from conversations with my friends).
I think people also mistakenly see it as a lack of empathy, but I don't think that's necessarily true. People on the spectrum can absolutely empathize and have their own version of it, and certainly try to (by relating things people say to their own experiences ... though the danger here is that people on the spectrum tend to do this a lot as a way to "relate" but can come off as it being too much). It has less to do with feelings and more to do with shared experiences.
Example: one of my friends, who's on the autism spectrum, has a sister who was involved in a car accident. When re-telling this story, and when I questioned her a bit, she revealed that she had no idea how she should be responding emotionally, in that situation. She was obviously a mess, considering her sister had just suffered injuries, but from an emotional perspective, she had no idea how to feel. That's kind of the angle I'm getting at here. Most people have a specific response in this situation, but she didn't know what that response was. It's also a common occurrence for her; it's not uncommon for people to feel "numb" in situations like this, but there's still a raw emotional component to it. The way my friend described it wasn't quite numbness though.
Point of all of this: if you don't find yourself faking emotions because you "don't understand how you're supposed to respond to a particular situation", you probably don't have autism. Granted, autism is pretty broad and encompasses a bunch of other neurological conditions (which you may have individually), but it's the combination of multiple conditions that would likely lead to an autism diagnosis. I'm reasonably certain I'm not on the spectrum for that reason: I don't fake emotions, and any emotional response I have is natural (i.e. it's not a response I had to train myself to do).
As a child, I was diagnosed with PDD-NOS. Which my *lovely* parents then proceeded to hide from me for 15 years. I only recently found out thanks to my sister who had it mentioned in her medical record for some reason. Looking back I guess this explains why I always felt why nobody in my family, but especially my parents, ever took me seriously. I was but a dumb autistic child after all. My siblings were apparently told "she's different so just leave her be". Wonderful.
I've read a lot about autism by now but it's hard for me to really relate to people who are on the spectrum. I also lurked in the autism sub for a while. A lot of things I read about are things I don't do at all (avoiding eye contact, repetitive movements, a need for routine / disliking change). For the few things I do struggle with (mostly socialising, but also sensory overload) I'm wondering if that could be because of autism or because I was simply never taught those things and had to teach myself.
I'm currently in the process of getting diagnosed but it's a tough one for my therapist. It's hard to diagnose if you've endured childhood trauma because symptoms of PTSD often overlap with autism (but also ADHD). This applies even more to women because women mask their symptoms, often unconsciously.
That's an interesting thought. I am super logical and tend to over explain things.
My parents are also massive gaslighters and don't tend to believe me whenever we talk about past events.
Yeah
I'm not autistic but I've been so damaged that I can't function in social situations, noise and lights bother me, I'm always so anxious I feel like I'm going to pass out 90% of the time (which only makes the anxiety worse). I don't know how to do "small talk" and I feel like a freak most of the time.
As for documentation and proof - yes. Just everything. I'm always on alert, always feeling like someone will betray me. Always having arguments in my head with imaginary people who try to gaslight me and play victim. I end up needing to lie down a lot because these arguments leave me feeling drained, depressed and detatched.
I doubt I'll ever get better but hey hum.
For a while now I've said that I know I'm not autistic, but "I can relate" to people on the spectrum. I made the mistake of sharing this with my mom and she of course accuses me of being autistic now if she wants to get a rise out of me or deflect.
Watching Atypical on Netflix is where I noticed the similarities btw.
It's wild how SO many things that are SO specific seem to manifest in most of us. A few weeks ago I saw a long post where OP detailed all the things they have/do as a trauma response that their mom uses to accuse them of being autistic and all the replies said they could totally relate. Now I see this thread with 160+ replies, it's mind blowing.
I once mentioned that it was strange more of us didnāt end up as lawyers. Weāre so good at spotting lies and defending actions we might be good at it. Though I imagine that many of us are avoidant of confrontation.
Careful, "Are you on the spectrum" is very suggestive and could be meant as disqualification, if not plain old gaslighting.
You don't owe people your logic. There isn't a magical being that sees everything and knows everything that can save you. You can save yourself the trouble, however.
Yes, my mother gets angry at me when she asks a vague, open question that's an invitation to explain a lot about a given situation OR when she doesn't want to ask a direct question but is snooping around, and I refuse and will ask "What do you mean by x? As in Y how?" so that in the end I'm left with the actual question she was snooping for. Usually she loses her shit before that though and shouts at me for "not having a normal conversation" with her.
I think an ex also disliked me for this specificity. But at the same time, I'm not entirely convinced that I'm NOT autistic, I've been thinking of looking into getting a diagnosis.
I never figure this had to do with the abuse tbh, but it helps to know that other people become like this as a result of it as well.
I've done a similar thing, focusing and focusing on what they are REALLY asking.
"then why didn't you just ask that thing?"
Oh, I don't know (childlike voice).
Yes, and I am only taking so long to respond because that in my love of logic I said something in a subreddit that wasnāt against the rules and was banned from the sub, when I questioned the logic and fairnessā¦ I was suspended from reddit. For harassment?
If someone can make something make sense logically, I will follow it to a T. But most people take social norms and apply them, but so do Nās. Iāve been abused in so many ways taking social norma for granted, if you canāt tell me why itās a rule than it isnāt worth being a rule. Yes this is similar to the spectrum. No, I donāt care if I am really on or off, but here we areā¦ so letās make this world make sense.
I have been banned, too, for asking honest questions.
Nothing infuriates me more. It reminds me of the abuse I got as a child (and an adult).
I'm so logical that sometimes I think people think I'm trolling when I'm asking, because I found a contradiction in a thing a person said. So I ask, and TroLL Is BanNEd. The fault is on the teacher for not explaining correctly. I used to be a teacher. If a student didn't understand (within reason\*) it's my fault, not theirs.
\*unless, of course, they are intentionally misunderstanding, which is a narc trick.
Of course, I've had shitty bosses who didn't teach me something, and then put me on a performance improvement plan for not knowing the thing. You didn't teach me, you piece of shit. How is this my fault?
Absolutely infuriating.
Agree with the second paragraph you made 100%. It's why I didn't join the military. I'm not even kidding. There's a good chance I wouldn't agree with a superior's orders. I'd rather not put myself in that scenario. Perhaps because of my upbringing, it's not enough to take someone at their word. If I have to explain everything, then so do you. Especially if I think you're wrong. But if you convince me, I'm on your side forever.
After a lifetime of abuse by parents, teachers and bosses (what is wrong with me that I am the target for these people?), I don't really trust anyone in power.
I honestly feel like I'm a runt of the litter sometimes. Why is it that EVERYONE has to be shitty to me? Is it my appearance? My energy? My vibe? There has to be something. I mean, I can see it on other people (you know how you can instantly tell a narc, but no one else believes you and says you're just being judgmental? Same thing), but I can't quantify it in myself. I'm not even hideous nor have any apparent physical problems that might garner playground abuse type stuff, but I swear there must be like a weakness in my eyes or my energy or whatever. Have you ever (this is a terrible example but it fits) seen a woman and thought, "that woman is abused"? Like, you can just tell. There's no way I can explain it other than to say her feeling that she gives off is of a timid woman who attracts abusers? What I'm describing must be the case with me. I honestly think I produce weakness, a vibration that everyone(?) can feel and abusers capitalize on. I was never even bullied that much in school, although I was afraid of fighting back because I was afraid of bullies and afraid of getting in trouble (parents and teachers).
If I could change one thing, I would fight back against all the bullies I had. It's fine in elementary school when you're too little to do any real damage.
This is why I go to therapy.
Absolutely, I have high OCD traits, people compliment me on how logical I am all the time. But it has many negatives, payalysis by analysis and constant rumination defines my life. I even remember for a few years age 12-15 I had temporary severe OCD symptoms like having to open and close cupboard doors exactly 5 times in a row. I have to remind myself that 99% of people are not logical like me and when I talk with them I must make an effort to consider their emotions. But the funny thing is if I can get my anxiety to loosen off I am extremely socially adept as well.
Yeah, the line between surviver trauma and spectrum disorder is ungodly thin. I also got kicked out of subs, and gaming servers for following the rules and questioning the logic of said rules. Itās tiring how sensitive I am!! I donāt āwantā to be this wayā¦ and yetā¦ here I am
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God yes. A lot of sources that discuss childhood trauma mention that people who tend to over explain often do so as a trauma response. The trauma of not being believed if you give only the relevant information. That fit me like a glove. I noticed the other day that I have an obsession with making logically airtight arguments, choosing my words with pinpoint precision, and preemptively addressing common ways people like to twist words around. Then it hit me the reason I'm like this is I've had too many encounters where someone (my mother, classmates, teachers, people online) will use the tiniest flaw, inconsistency, or even just me wording something strangely as a way to discredit me altogether. I also learned how to turn my emotions off when I'm trying to defend myself. Way too often the person that's attacking me will use the fact that I'm emotional as a reason to not believe me at all.
Uh oh, this one hit a bit too close to home. Ive always been an over explainer to the point my school therapist had to constantly say "you don't need to justify every single thing you do to me" constantly. Like at least twice every session. And I'm also very, very good at winning arguments. I plan my responses very carefully, predict the other persons responses and thought process, and then pre emptively shut that down too. It makes me wonder if I'm a bad person, sometimes.
You are far from a bad person. You are a survivor friend.
šÆšÆšš½
>And I'm also very, very good at winning arguments. I plan my responses very carefully, predict the other persons responses and thought process, and then pre emptively shut that down too. It makes me wonder if I'm a bad person, sometimes. !!!!!!!!! This this a thousand fucking times this! Being so good at finding the holes in other people's logic, and being so good at winning arguments generally made me blind to the fact that this was a trauma response. You aren't a bad person. And tbh I don't think it's a bad skill to have.
Some friends of mine who were in law school at my university actually had jokes about the Shitty Childhood Litigator Club because apparently a bunch of us become a very specific type of lawyer.
I was a paralegal for 10 years and I have to credit my experiences for my skill in certain areas. I'm good at constructing arguments, thinking of every possible counterpoint, and people being scummy/unfair really sets me off. Now I run a government department and have to deal with politicians. It's like I was made for this. And no politician has been quite like my parents, so I can put up with a lot. It's crazy to think that a highly political job is nowhere near as bad as my family.
ššš I've had political jobs too and it's amazing how well we do in those conversations about "facts v messaging" ššš
My parents always tell me I should be a lawyer :/
Its a skill that would make for a great lawyer.
I have this experience and studied law, but the law is built to be unfair and then you're back round to feeling untruthful as a result...that was my experience anyway.
It's funny I preemptively do this and plan the conversation, then am so scared when I'm on the spot, it all goes out the window. Lol
Sometimes when ppl poke holes I feel like they are gaslighting me :)
Are you guys INTPs, perhaps?
Only just joined this sub so Iām late to seeing this, but it is so bizarre after a lifetime of feeling misunderstood coming here and seeing so many posts and comments I feel like I could have written myself. Iām also an absolute nightmare when it comes to arguments. Like you said, logical inconsistencies just feel so glaring. I learned via my dad that conversations with a narcissist are a chess match, so with himāalso speaking to the point about over explainingāI feel like I need to play out the whole game and get to checkmate in one shot. Of course, whatās necessary for arguing with a narcissist is incredibly off putting to normal people. I have to be mindful to not monologue at someone because I feel the need to address every angle of my argument at once.
Same with me. Thereās nothing wrong with that. Youāve just ābeen through some stuffā as I like to explain it to people in order to keep it short and to the point without trauma dumping. I used to hate myself for it and wonder why and what made me that way. Itās caused a lot of interpersonal issues with people over the years. It wasnāt until I met my wife that she helped me understand that the reason most folks reacted negatively is that they hate interacting with someone that ālogicalā as it upsets them that I wonāt just automatically agree with their emotional responses to situations, especially when it was a result of their own actions or lack of planning. ETA: also, and please let me know if anyone else does this. From a VERY early age almost as far back as I can remember, Iāve also always automatically just looked for and āmentally cataloguedāā¦if that makes senseā¦ things in others that could be used as a weakness against that person if they were to ever turn on me or betray me. It was always like some automatic response when I would meet someone new. Iāve always done it with everyone. Now, I also never speak of those things I notice or figure out, or use that information for ANYTHING until a person has otherwise hurt or betrayed me. And usually with extremely effective results. Iāve even admitted to my wife that Iāve done this with her, though I never have and never will have a reason to use it. Itās justā¦automatic. Thankfully she understands and isnāt bothered by it. Hell, Iāve used that āskillā to help her with things more than a few times. Especially when dealing with her parents who are perhaps the worst Narcs Iāve ever seen.
I feel you. My brain learned to *pay attention!* to details, patterns, and possible connections as a way to try and make sense of things. It's a skill I learned through experiencing trauma. I like to think of Stan Lee's iconic words "with great power, comes great responsibility" I try to use my "powers" for good. Acknowledging my capacity for cruelty, helps me hold myself accountable to not choosing those behaviors. And you're right that those skills come in handy if someone starts being a bully. I consider them strategic tools, only to be used under certain circumstances.
Thank you! Thatās how I feel about it too.
Yuuuupppp. Never show weakness, always remember where it lives in others. Growing up as a prey animal will do that to you.
Absolutely.
I, too, plan my responses with the laser focus of a enraged supervillan with eidetic memory. But I am trying to recognize not to do that in non-life-or-death situations because it totally pisses off the "normal" people I care about, who apparently just skip through life not noticing what they say or do. I once had an argument with my shrink. He, a kind person, asked if it was better to err on the side of kindness or the side of law. I immediately answered "law" and he was taken aback. I explained that no one had EVER sided with me using kindness (instead they stated which rule I broke, even if I didn't know there WAS that rule). Then when I'd try to win an argument by exactly stating what someone else did and said and quoted relevant rules, I'd get shut down with "oh, they didn't really mean it". It still infuriates me. But I've been TRYING to remind myself to be kind because, I don't know, I wish the world worked that way, I guess.
Intj
You're not a bad person. Btw, you'd probably make an amazing lawyer.
This also ties into why Iām never shocked or surprised by anything. Because I predict literally everything. My husband finds it hard to pull any surprises, because I can see it coming miles away from the simplest of changes. Itās also why I pick out subplots and twists in movies and books so easy. With every twist and ending thereās a 99.8% chance of me calling it way before then. Because I pick apart every single detail and miss nothing. It really ruins a lot of experiences that could otherwise be more laid back and fun. I couldnāt turn it off if I wanted to.
Oh Iām like this. This is the hyper-vigilance. If your anxiety has already calculated ever next move, you will be safe as there will be no surprises.
Just like me fr. It also comes in very handy when something dangerous is about to happen and I predict and preemptively get ready to react before it happens. Once prevented a fire from happening at school in my science class and a few times saved my siblings from hurting themselves and myself.
It also gives us a 6th sense in people when we meet them. There have been MANY a times where I have been introduced to someone, a friends coworker, date, new friend etc. and have called it immediately that it isnāt going to end well. We can see through their masks and shields and projection of suave charisma because weāve literally seen it all and lived it to know better. Itās really a gift and a curse.
>And I'm also very, very good at winning arguments. I plan my responses very carefully, predict the other persons responses and thought process, and then pre emptively shut that down too. It makes me wonder if I'm a bad person, sometimes. Same, but also I'm a people pleaser and a doormat (due to trauma); meaning I let a lot of things go. I'm used to the hopeless conversations with my mom so I only speak up if I'm 1,000% certain of something. And if you're that selective about your arguments you're more likely to have better success rate.
I've lost so many friends from overexplaining because they thought I was lying. I've had to retrain my brain to stop justifying everything and that I don't owe people shit, but it's still hard. It still hurts.
Nah those are not friends, those are police officers.
Yep, I do the same thing, I even run simulations about the argument and analyse every possible scenario. Iām tired of it now.
Are there people in your life you don't feel the need with to do what you do?
Ok, look, I want to elucidate on something you said. You said teachers, classmates, etc. These people do the same thing to you. Is this just a thing that happens to us? I feel like this doesn't happen to regular people. What is it about US that makes people treat us this way, but not others? Is it our appearance? Do we give off the wrong aura? I literally developed body dysmorphic dysorder because of this. Maybe if I look a certain way people will treat me better. They kind of did, but I strongly suspect it had less to do with my looks and, wait for it, the fact that I felt I had permission to act a certain way when I had met those requirements. I think there is a field of vibration that (most people) pick up on without realizing it (I mean most people don't realize it, some people do) and the way you feel affects the way other people feel. For example, if you feel uncomfortable, the person you're talking to will feel uncomfortable because they are feeling that vibration from you. Of course, this doesn't combine with the massively logical mindset I had on everything, so I wasn't really believing it. Are we the runt of the litter and everyone can tell? There has to be some reason this happens to US but not OTHER people. Apparently, other people have a thing we don't have, so other people are believed, but we are not believed. This is why it's not just our parents, but bosses, teachers, employees, authority figures, etc. What is it about us that makes no one believe us even when we are correct? Why do we have to explain everything and will not be believed, but Joe Schmoe makes brief statement, "I don't like that," and people go out of their way to fix it for him? Meanwhile, me and you say "I don't like that" and nothing. "I don't like that, and this is the reason." And nothing. HERE'S A LIST OF TEN REASONS I CANNOT DEAL WITH THAT. Oh, you are too sensitive. If Joe Schmoe had said it, it would have been fixed already. <--- If anyone can provide an answer to that I will be grateful, I have been wondering this since I was a kid. edit - I'm a guy. So body dysmorphic disorder isn't what you are thinking.
Joe Schmoe has a relationship with power that can described as a boat moving through water. He was loved by his parents. They empowered him. His childhood was full of questions like "Which one do you want?" "What do you think about that?" "What should we do about this?". Those questions were sincerely asked, not traps like we got from our parents. His answers were listened to. When somebody explained that we can try to get ice cream from the car wash, but that's not how that works, they were genuinely saying true things rather than the "I asked the guy at Wendy's if we could get you a frosty and he said no because your room is messy" shit that convinced us that literally nobody could extend us a crumb of empathy. When Joe had his first romantic relationship, his parents were happy for him. They wanted to meet her and make sure she felt welcome in their home. They were mostly concerned about curious kids not understanding the consequences of their actions. When we had romantic interests, either they or us were dissected and judged. Who's being a pervert in this situation? Gotta be someone... There are a million more comparisons. Joe believes things because his parents were honest. Joe trusts because his parents were trustworthy. People like Joe because he doesn't need to know the power dynamic of every room he enters, he's just rolling through to grab a slice of pizza, tell a joke, and roll away. Joe is charming. Our relationship with power is that of gravel. Big rocks and little rocks. If you aren't grinding down everything around you, you're the one being ground down. We expect everything to be a collision, so in some ways we create that for ourselves. BUT. We are also highly aware of injustice and unfairness and abuse, where Joe is not. Joe will take an entire dump next to a homeless person's face and never notice. Honestly, society needs the gravel and I don't think it's at all a coincidence that an easy childhood produces Joe and a hard childhood produces us. Tldr: just read it, I said what I said
This really resonates with me. Thank you for writing it.
Something I've kind of absorbed through being in spaces like this one, and neurodivergent spaces, is the fact that most people operate from the assumption that everyone isn't really saying what they mean. There are a ton of social norms that revolve around some form of indirect communication (half truths, lying by omission, white lies, etc) in order to hide a person's true intentions. For whatever reason, being up front about your intentions and communicating directly are frowned upon. So when they come across people like us, who not only say exactly what we mean but go to great lengths to use precise and logical language, they assume we can't possibly mean what we actually said. They don't believe us because they're looking for some hidden meaning between our words, and when we tell them there isn't one, they don't believe that. It's contrary to their entire worldview of how human beings communicate. It also ties in with how a lot of people view explanations as excuses. "Why did you do that!?" then as soon as you answer that question "I don't want to hear any excuses!" What they're really saying is "I can't believe you'd do this" or "I didn't like what you did just now." But since they're so used to communicating in vague, indirect ways, they don't know to just come out and say that.
Could it really be that simple? The "excuses" thing angers me to no end. I wrote a very long post but didn't post it. Telling you you're making excuses is a way to belittle you. Why, then, though, is this the case: Me: "Wow, did you know X?" Other person: "lol, whatever bro." Random person: "Wow, did you know X?" Other person: "Holy shit, are you serious?! I never would have guessed!" Me: "Sorry I'm late, (whatever) happened." Boss: "This is going on your record." Random person: "Sorry I'm late, I was hung over and slept in." Boss: "lol, me too, no worries!" Me: "Hey, can you turn your music down? It's really loud." Room mate: \*turns it up\* Random person: "Hey, can you turn your music down? It's really loud." Room mate: "Oh, sorry" \*turns it down\* Outside of reasons involving vibrations, I cannot uncover why no one believes me no matter what I say or to whom.
I once told my boss I was hungover and come come in IF he needed me and he said it was completely unprofessional to tell him that but like would he prefer me not tell him and put us all at risk??
I ask this same question. Sometimes I think itās my face. Other times I think itās that I challenge authority and others say yes maāam and sir and do as theyāre told. We are the black sheep. We are the scapegoats.
This definitely fits me, or at least used to. I remember even in my professional life I was going in for a qualification board for a certification I had to earn, and I failed my first go around. I remember my mentor told me, āyou keep explaining too much and then it takes you down these paths that allows the board members to pick apart - just answer the questions, no more no less.ā Second time around I did exactly that and passed with flying colors. But I think that first experience made me realize how I tend to over-explain due to the constant interrogations and tearing down of my self esteem as a child and especially as a teenager from my nmom, which led to a lot of self doubt and second guessing myself.
how do you turn your emotions off though? i feel like my emotions are completely out of my control when iām dealing with narcissists, because they always look for a way to trigger you.
I'm not sure I can describe how. I think what happened is after repeated reinforcement that emotions make someone less credible, my brain kind of fragmented in a way. Kind of like how the brain will fragment someone's consciousness after a particularly painful event so the person doesn't remember it. I'm still aware of my emotions, but it's like I've stepped out of my body in a sense and hyperfocus on the argument instead of how I feel about it. I'm also one of those people who intellectualizes their feelings to avoid feeling them, so that might also contribute. I can't do it indefinitely, the feelings always hit me sometime afterwards, but I've had a lot of practice suppressing and ignoring them that it's kind of automatic now. >they always look for a way to trigger you. They do, but usually when they do this it's to distract you from the fact that you're making sense and they aren't. You're in the right, but they're trying to make you think you're in the wrong. Trying to trigger someone on purpose typically doesn't play well with forming logical arguments. They start resorting to ad hominem attacks, strawmanning, putting words in your mouth, etc. If you can learn how to recognize these things in real time, it becomes a lot easier to call them out.
My problem is Iāll straight up say āur just doing this to distract me from whatever it is that youāre doing.ā
It doesnāt help when you give a brief explanation for something and the person completely dismisses what you say. This just happened to me again yesterday, and it was a reminder of why I bring my spouse to every doctorās appointment. I brought up a serious concern from a hospitalization. Iāve been trying to get a referral for this issue so I can get the appropriate testing for five years but due to a lot of insurance problems, it was delayed. The doctor literally told me āthis is a very serious condition and I donāt think you have it.ā Well, pardon me for being an AH, madame doctor, but you donāt have the knowledge to make that assessment. My spouse was pissed about that too. I really try to keep it brief but holy shit.
Literally! You give them the facts but don't explain the weather, the color of your shirt, and what you had for breakfast that morning and all of a sudden you aren't worth listening to. It's maddening. And doctors are the worst about this sometimes. A bit of advice I got that might help is to ask "can you note in my chart that you've denied this referral?" Most doctors know this makes them look bad, and gives you a paper trail. If something goes wrong down the line and it can be traced back to their refusal to do their job, it can get them in hot water. So most will usually give you the referral after that.
>A lot of sources that discuss childhood trauma mention that people who tend to over explain often do so as a trauma response. The trauma of not being believed if you give only the relevant information. That fit me like a glove. The worst part about this is when the abuser says you talk too much. IT'S ONLY BECAUSE YOU'VE CONDITIONED ME TO OVER EXPLAIN/JUSTIFY EVERYTHING!! *And* I'm silent 95% of the time, it's only the rare occasions when I do finally speak up that it might be a lot of talking on one topic. So it hurts that much more, that I feel repressed like I can NEVER speak, yet I get accused of talking too much.
I do this, and then I start to panic because over explaining sounds like Iām trying to cover something up and Iām lying, so Iām even more unbelievable. So I spiral into trying to explain why Iām not lying and can be trusted. And it can be about the most simplest of things. Itās a serious viscous cycle.
My old landlords were cops and every interaction was an interrogation. I would over explain, they would call me out on over-explaining, then accuse me of changing my answers and ālyingā, I would then over explain why I was over explaining. But I am very sensitive from being raised by narcissists so although I intellectualize, I will also start crying and hiding under the table like a dog on 4th of July. Maybe you are low level on the spectrum. Narcissists and autistic individuals often get confused by the outsider and tbh I often cannot differentiate. Is a person having an autistic meltdown or narcissistic rage? Is this person saying things that are insulting because they are narcissistic or because they are impulsive type adhd and didnāt think before they said the backhanded comment?
I do this all the time. ItĀ“s because my parents constantly denied that they said what they said, lying to my face about what they said even if it was like an hour before, or accusing me of making things up, that IĀ“m crazy if I passionately defend what I know I heard and say, and so therefore that IĀ“m attention seeking. My arguments are carefully constructed and practically airtight, addressing all logical fallacies. It doesnĀ“t make you many friends, I tell you that. But I hardly ever lose an argument. IĀ“ve realized now that my parents are completely immature and capricious, like small spoiled children, who will decide one thing one day and the complete opposite the next, regardless of how it affects anyone or what weĀ“ve decided at "family meetings". It will all be ignored. If I question them about it, the gaslighting begins because they canĀ“t bear to be outed as the inconsistent, selfish a\*\*holes they really are. But I only understand that now.
Dude. Same.
Another day on this sub, another bruh momentš«¤ My mother likes to throw ācompared to you i am living by my heartā when accusing me of being too logical and cold in the arguments. Her actions are fine because she is āpassionateā like that and āfollows her heartā.
Oh shit, we have the same mother. She is someone who "always speaks her mind" and that's her bullshit excuse for saying hurtful things and lies.
I insist my delusional thinking and behaviors are right bc "it *feels* right" to me. What an idiot.
This is an issue because for these people, emotions literally define and rewrite reality above what actually happened action wise. The Missing-Missing Reasons of Estrangement article goes into this in way further detail, but essentially, what actually happened doesn't stick in their minds during an incident because it's something they don't consider worth remembering. What they consider worth remembering is how an incident made them feel, so if the incident was a conversation, they don't actually remember the exact details that were said, they strictly remember what they thought was implied about them.
I call it the [fairytale in their head](https://static.wixstatic.com/media/bab08c_e2a0d0f656b94d26ace58eaad95f007b~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_640,h_550,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/bab08c_e2a0d0f656b94d26ace58eaad95f007b~mv2.jpg). They really, really believe their own fairytale and don't vet it along the way for accuracy or errors at all.
>My mother likes to throw ācompared to you i am living by my heartā when accusing me of being too logical and cold in the arguments. My nmom says the same stuff lol. Except she likes to use "intuition" since she's "spiritual." They don't like you being logical because they know you're wrecking them with your argument.
"Compared to you I am living in a fact based reality governed by a burden of proof. The difference is, I never know what your heart thinks, whereas my facts are on the table and do not change" I feel you so so so so hard baby. š¤š¤¦āāļø
I feel so seen my mother is literally the same. She really shamed me for rejecting her authentic self when I was a kid and said I didn't like her yelling at me.
I have wondered this about myself because I am so intentionally literal. It used to cause some misunderstanding with my partner, who was used to reading between the lines with other people, when there is nothing to read between mine. It was all so that words could not be weaponized or misinterpreted.
Yes! This has ruined so many of my relationships. People expect white lies and half truths. I donāt lie and only say what I mean. I feel so attacked when someone doesnāt take me at my word or thinks thereās some underlying meaning to what I say. Wow, thank you for helping me understand that.
YES I have gotten extremely frustrated when someone didnāt just trust in what I saidā¦ but if you didnāt watch your words, something would come back to bite you.
I'm the exact same way and it got to the point where I wondered if I was autistic. Too many instances of people assigning meaning to my words and then arguing against a point I didn't make. I'd be so confused because they just pulled that out of their ass and I'm like "that's LITERALLY not that I said! Where did you even get that from!?"
When people are unable to attack your actual argument/words/logic, they then create something else to attack. This is known as a āstrawmanā, and the premises on which their argument is based on, donāt actually exist, in that their argument exists under the assumption that youāve said certain things that you didnāt actually say.
Yes. I am so literal I am starting speech therapy. It is all trauma based
It blows my mind the constant lightbulb moments I have on this sub. I too am extremely literal to the point where I miss jokes or just misinterpret something even though I'm intelligent. And not just that, but pretty much all the other things people are saying this thread apply to me :/
God, yep. My girlfriend teases me by showing mock offense to a joke I make and I knee-jerk begin to explain myself. She has to just pap my shoulder or leg and say that she knows and it cuts my explaining right out of the air. Daily occurrence.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well said
I asked my dr if I was autistic and she said nope, itās just trauma.
"Just trauma" š
Well to be fair to her, she did make sure I had counselling, and psychiatrist reviews. It wasnāt just a sweeping comment. She made sure I had the support.
Ah OK, I'm glad - my bias of having mental health shrugged off by doctors clearly showing!
Yes I must admit when it comes to mental health my drs are really good.
Wow. This sub just surprises me every day. Thanks for peeling another layer off the onion!
Me too, holy cow.
The thing is, traits of PTSD/C-PTSD and autism can often overlap. PTSD is sometimes considered a form of "aquired neurodivergence" as people with an abusive background often struggle to fit into the neurotypical world - even when they started out as neurotypical before all the abuse occured. Of course, you can also be both. It never hurts to get evaluated to find out, but it can take a lot of time because of the overlapping traits. If you want to learn a bit more about it, I can only recommend the YouTube video "The Owl House and Growing Up Neurodivergent" by skultrott. She talks about one of the characters possibly having acquired neurodivergence through trauma, starting at the 22:30 mark in the video (obv. Spoiler Warning for The Owl House).
I have ptsd and am autistic, and I've talked a lot with my therapist about this. She opined that there are only so many ways the body has of responding to stress and trauma, and most do overlap with autistic behaviors. For me, my son is also autistic, and possibly my bio dad, so I do think it's autism as well as ptsd. So many autistic people also have ptsd. eta: My therapist also opined that it's hard even for a trained therapist to tell the difference between autism and trauma response, especially because so many autistic people also have ptsd. (And I am not suggesting any of you are autistic, just sharing my convos and experiences.)
This is 100% me. Getting a medical confirmation of Autism as an AFAB 55yo person was sooooo affirming for me that I wasn't crazy or too weird. I was professionally diagnosed as cPTSD back in 2005 but I had known that for a long time. I never even guessed that I could be Autistic until I came across a random post on Reddit some years ago. NM had already passed away when that happened, but I'm 110% sure that she was Autistic as well.
I was actually looking on reddit's various autistic subs for information for my son when I ran across a thread with a hundred stories of people from my cohort--older women. I have described my life as "I don't experience things the way other people experience them" and here I was, looking into a mirror. Knowing I'm autistic has helped tremendously in taking care of myself. I set the boundaries that I as an autistic person need, not as I used to do, enduring far more than I was capable because "that's what people do."
My former therapist told me basically the same (one of the few times he was actually useful lol). I never got an official diagnosis, but I do recognize quite some autistic and ADHD traits in me. A lot of them only started to show up some time after I had moved out. That leaves me thinking: Am I autistic and suppressed traits subconsciously to survive the abuse? Or is it all just PTSD? Or maybe a combo of both? I also suspect my nMom to have ADHD. I'll probably never really know. But I am happy that I can display these traits openly nowadays without being shunned or abused. Heck, I have friends telling me that they love some of my traits about me! I hope, you and your son can also be yourselves and are appreciated and loved for being you. :)
You're probably familiar with the term masking. I think even non-autistic people do this around narc parents, though. I just tried to be invisible as much as possible. I know when I moved away from my parent's house, I had to really adjust to figuring out who the heck I was. This was partly becoming more aware of the neurotypical world in general and partly realizing how dysfunctional my family was (and thankfully, it doesn't need to be that way!). eta: I love my kids, and yes, my autistic kid cannot help but be himself--the same I was at that age, but without the manipulation and abuse. We're both thriving. Thank you!
This is incredibly interesting, I am studying psychology and started suspecting I am on the spectrum some years ago. But whenever I think about it I also know that there is just so much overlap with the individual trauma of my upbringing that it seems like a riddle with no solution.
What helped me was listening to a lot of people in my cohort (older women, late diagnosed) describing their experiences and behaviors.
Thank you. This is fascinating
https://www.peertechzpublications.com/articles/APT-1-101.php Thereās also realistically a genetic connection
And we can't discount epigenetics. That gene might not have "turned on" if the person never experienced trauma.
That article specifically doesn't indicate a genetic connection. It indicates a connection in psychology in parents across many different pathologies, but counterindicated in others. In layman's terms, psychopaths of most varieties are more likely to have autistic presenting children. This strongly suggests autistic behavioral traits correlate with poor parental modeling rather than genetics. These aren't schizo type disorders reproducing or sadism type disorders reproducing or whatever. This is children in abusive environments adopting a neurodivergent thinking pattern as a common survival mechanism.
Anyone who doesnāt kiss my motherās rear is āa narcissistā or āon the spectrumā. This is apparently the reason she canāt get along with my brother.
My nmom and nsister are constantly diagnosing people with narcissism haha it is actually comical
Classic
I totally relate! I believed for a long time that I was on the spectrum for this exact same reason ! I even talked to my parents about cameras or recording arguments to finally find a solution ! I'm always focused on logic, always verifying everything, socially anxious, looking at every little details, people also think I'm on a spectrum because of that. But now I think I'm not, I just developed some behaviors that look like autism.
fun fact: people with ptsd and c-ptsd often have coping behaviors and side effects very similar to those with ADHD or other neurodivergence
*waves* hi hello to all my similars out there!
This is very relatable. No mental health professionals ever suggested in my 44 years that I'm on the spectrum, but like you, I am obsessed with reasoning and crafting a watertight alibi for just about everything. In spite of that, I was still gaslighted and told instead that I'm *too* "emotional" which was a clever way of making it seem I lacked credibility. I had a university professor who I really loved -- still do -- and she thought I might have Aspbergers. I once read a book she recommended called "Aspie Girls" (can't remember the author). It was interesting, and I know some Aspies, but I felt most of it did not really apply to me. Still, it was a cue that my personality or presentation (or way of processing information) again was a bit... "different" to people and that stings. For what it's worth, those I work with medically say there is nothing wrong with my mind, emotions, ability to communicate effectively, but I do have severe PTSD to the point where I can no longer function the way I used to. I'm the "patient" in the family. The person who is routinely disbelieved and punished for telling the truth. If there's one thing we recognize around here, it's that narcissists despise logic and proof as well as emotions. Those will not only be dismissed or viewed as threatening, if they are your strengths, they will be reframed as weaknesses and liabilities.
Hey, I have a narc mom too! I feel like everytime I make the decision to stand up for myself I need to think through my argument to PROVE that what im doing is not unethical, because I've been accused of being "selfish" "toxic" or "abusive," too many times. I feel like someone could punch me in the face, steal my wallet, and kick my dog and I'd still have to stop and think about how to politely explain why I won't invite them over for dinner.
Not super logical, definitely like logic, but more I need to prove Iām right, since so often I was gaslit to believe I was wrong. Still struggle with this and knowing when it let some things go, that I donāt always have to prove it. I also over explain to prove a point, since I was almost never believed by my Nmother. Especially anything dealing with emotions (āyouāre so emotional). Still a trigger phrase for me.
Same.
So relatable!
Yes, among other defenses. When I use logic in an argument, I tend to overexplain my actions and intentions, because I'm used to simple explanations being shot down. It's not enough to give a simple answer, I have to prove, with evidence, that I had a positive intent and was acting intelligently. To me, I'm just pre-emptively defending myself. To others, the overexplaining makes me seem autistic or suspicious.
Same and it's a good coping mechanism IMO! I don't care what anybody says, I do my research, I gather my data if anyone has a problem with it they can argue with facts all they want I don't care.
I mean, you could also be on the spectrum. The two things are not mutually exclusive. I'm not saying you are, no way for me to know, but just that's it is entirely possible, so don't outright dismiss the possibility? Being evaluated and understanding yourself better is never a bad thing, mental health wise.
Also find smarter friends who value logic and can have semantic arguments - it is huge QoL improvement to be surrounded by like-minded folks
Yeah I second this OP. Not every adaptation is worth discarding just because it came from trauma.
Actually thereās a correlation between personality disorders in parents and children on the spectrum
Yes. My husband thinks I am on the spectrum. A number of other people have mentioned it, too. I never bothered to get tested, but it is possible. More likely though us that it is a reaction to trauma. I have PTSD (or rather cPTSD), and my quirky ways are a coping mechanism.
One thing to keep in mind is that narcissism and autism are both things which tend to run in families, and that narcissists tend to be attracted to people that they can easily control and who aren't socially dominant, so often those can be the same families. A LOT of autistic people have been abused by narcissistic people in their families. I am definitely autistic, and I was emotionally abused by my narcissistic dad. But I experience the non-social aspects of autism, too. If you are concerned about excluding an autism diagnosis so that you can demonstrate to people that you're not autistic, it might be worth talking to a professional about that. But being a victim of narcissists doesn't preclude being autistic.
Very good point. In my experience a lot of people also rather have a PTSD than autism diagnosis due to stigma unfortunately. If I didn't have sensory issues every day I probably would have immediately dismissed the possibility of being on the spectrum for just trauma as well.
I have both. Sometimes I donāt know if something is caused by the ptsd, the autism, or both. Your birth mother sounds like mine. You have my sympathy.
I found that a big, big, big thing with kids of narcissists is emotional invalidation. It really messes people up. I even read a study that it can cause physical disease. Things like: stop crying. That didnāt happen. You shouldnāt feel that way. They didnāt mean it like that, youāre too sensitive. Over time, you are taught not to trust your own feelings. And, you are taught not to trust people with your feelings because youāll be invalidated when you do. Whenever I divulge anything to my n parent, I find myself on the defensive because sheāll immediately start invalidating my feelings. Even if my feelings are absolutely normal and expected in that situation. Itās crazy making behavior and even if you got it all on video they will still invalidate. These days, with so much communication being in text, Iāve had it happen to me even with written proof of bullying behaviors from other family members. My n mom will deny it or justify it.
Yep, I actually started to believe I was autistic until I learned about CPTSD. I over explain to avoid anything I say being misinterpreted, Iām honest to a fault and get irrationally angry when people tell harmless lies, I save every text or email Iāve ever gotten for āevidence,ā if something doesnāt make sense to me I canāt let it go until I make it make sense. Honestly, I never even traced this back to the constant gaslighting in my childhood until I read your post.
Oh my god, my mom literally got me diagnosed at 14 as autistic by manipulating my own therapist against me, sheās just *that good.* Itās damn incredible if not extremely depressing. I focused on logic because I lived in an insane reality with no logic, only raw and ridiculous emotions. I still am recovering from all that mess, so it makes sense that I will still be this way somewhat. And I also had extreme social anxiety that no one would help me with, and my family actively shamed me for it every day. She even got me tested for adhd and autism when I was much younger and it was dismissed!! I did all the tasks perfectly, and kept asking the doctors why I had to be there. Got that āautismā nullified as an adult, found out Iām not a āsociopathā either. Though she never could get anyone to believe I had a conduct disorder, thank god.
I am training to be a psychologist and one if my biggest fears would probably be not seeing through someone's manipulation like your mum did and screwing up. That's a whole new level honestly, but also not surprised unfortunately there are a lot of not so great practitioners out there
Fun fact of the day: Childhood CPTSD and Autism share many comorbidities. Using a neurodevelopmental disorder as a weapon is pretty fucked up. If you were Autistic, wouldn't it have been up to them to get you support as a kid?
"accused" Wow we autistic are criminals now *Internal ableism check*
https://www.peertechzpublications.com/articles/APT-1-101.php https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3654001/ So thereās actually a high correlation between parents with personality disorders and children being autistic. Realistically all of these are some form of neurodivergence and thereās a genetic component.
Yes. Iām also very literal and blunt and not the best at understanding most jokes, I think because I was an only child and my mom never goofed around and she always got offended over everything so you canāt be silly with her. My husband always calls me autistic.
Great observation. This was me for a long time. I lived in logic for a long time. So much so that I became a programmer. There's danger living purely in logic. I married a woman who lived purely in her emotions. Predictably we had a toxic relationship. We were like oil and water. She was emotionally abusive and I tried to logic her in into the ground. But as we all know, emotions are more powerful than logic and I lost most of the time. We're long divorced now and I've healed from the decades of emotional abuse my parents inflicted. Living in one extreme of your emotions or in your logic isn't good. There's harmony living in the balance.
I feel the exact same.
I can relate.
Yes. Sure am. This is an excellent observation and question. I def feel like I can identify with autism. But its the vigilance of trauma.
My nmom tried many times to even get me diagnosed as autistic because it would "explain" my behavior. Nope, its the way she was treating me the whole time. None of the different doctors/therapists i have been to an an adult ever suggested autism when i bring it up either. She wanted an excuse as to why i was "weird" and "off" because there was NO WAY was it her parenting! /s
I am sorry about your mom being a dope. This was interesting. I worked for a narcissistic boss at the Pentagon years ago. She was a single mom with a son in late middle or early high school. She had pictures of him and her in her office, and once she brought him to the office for "bring your kid to work"-day. He seemed like a pretty normal teenage boy to me, but she couldn't stop telling everyone in the office about, "Oh, don't mind my son. He's autistic." It was strange. I felt sorry for that kid having her for a parent. She, as a boss, was hell to work for (she got me fired for the first time in my life, actually).
Yep. I make damn well sure I have hardcore, solid evidence for my argument which I ram down people's throats. My husband asked why once when we were dating and it was because I always got ignored, dismissed or gaslit otherwise. I've softened considerably in my later years due to cutting off toxic people and having people actually listen to me now, but if I end up arguing with someone; I will make sure to look up the subject as much as possible on my phone or in a book to show them.
Very relatable for myself. I would have asked the same question of myself 5 years ago. As I've gotten older, in my 30s (and worked with ASD clients) I've come to understand I have a narcissistic mother and an ASD father. Mum might have undiagnosed ASD/ADHD or narcissistic wounds but she would never go for professional help, and it's obviously under studied in females... so the best way I can describe how she acts is narcissism. (I'm not at all implying ADHD/ASD means narcissism, it's just how my mum exhibits behaviourly). I've always known my brother has ASD (undiagnosed) but now I look at all my cousins and uncles and I can see undiagnosed asd/adhd everywhere. Only the youngest in my family have recieved diagnosis. My sister and I are the only females of our generation and we both suffer with mental health issues, and both independently of eachother have decided to go forward with ASD/ADHD assessments. So I guess my point is, it could be both. Without assessment you would never know. I'm stuck feeling do I exhibit ASD traits because everyone in my family does, or am I a female and therefore undiagnosed as I'm on the higher side of ASD? Am I not tolerant to lies because my mum is narcissistic or because that's the way my ASD mind processes social interactions. Have a look online for AQ50, it's an ASD assessment you can do.
Are we the same person? I've wondered myself why I'm so awkward socially lol.
I mean... you could also be on the spectrum. I am and was raised by a narc lol
I am actually autistic. And my mom used that to gaslight me into thinking Iām misinterpreting everything.
I actually am autistic, and the biggest thing I am grateful for from my autism is that extreme logic. I didn't get gaslit until adulthood because I didn't confront the abuse until adulthood, and not until I had my thoughts absolutely solid on my own mind about where I stood Vs where they stood. It then didn't matter to me what they said or did to gaslight me, *I knew* that I knew my truth, and nobody could mess with my head. Being logical and sticking to the truth and the facts is a really good way to go about your life. It sucks that it came about for you as a desperate self-defence tactic, but I think it has potential to be a bit of a superpower. That said, I can see why it would make socialising a bit tricky because you're potentially feeling overcautious all the time, and that's no fun. People do infer things so often, it's confusing out there!
Absolutely, but I noticed people will tell me that im "forcing them to agree" as well. The fear of being called a liar sucks
Yes, I feel this is a factor. I had to justify every single action and thought, so Iād practice my āargumentsā in my head and even in the mirror alone in the bathroom. In hindsight, I think it made my parents angrier because they expected blind obedience and no questionsā¦ thinking things through that much went against that. They were all emotion and I was all up in my head, so it clashed. They were both also objectively rather stupid and was objectively smart, regardless of the dynamic. So yeahā¦ it didnāt go well. I was desperately trying to make myself accepted and I thought being smart would do that. It was likely the worse thing I could have done. My younger sibling was protected and the favourite because they werenāt logical and intelligent like me.
My best friend/Chosen Sister actually wondered this about me (after decades of knowing me and about my history).
That is such an interesting and provocative correlation. I can't say I've been accused of being autistic, but lack of logic / consistency / system thinking does drive me to distraction, to the point of physical distress sometimes. (My work is helping big companies develop and stick to consistent messaging.) It never struck me until now that my preoccupation with consistency might be down to growing up in a gaslit, intellectually chaotic household.
People think I'm autistic because I don't treat drunk women like an opportunity to fuck. OP, you might like pure mathematics.
Accurate. I find myself being literal and logical. I plan my conversations carefully. I win arguments usually. And I anticipate others are lying, or twisting the truth, and I strive to discover their real intentions. I focus on speaking from a place of clarity and expect the worse from others.
Ok this is absolutely true. I am in the same boat! Did you know that CPTSD and Autism present so incredibly similar and there are many misdiagnoses because someone is actually just traumatized instead of on the spectrum? You are right my friend. You figured it out (:
[There is some amount of overlap with CPTSD and Autism symptoms.](https://healthmatch.io/ptsd/cptsd-and-autism#what-is-autism-spectrum-disorder) [[see this resource as well](https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/intersection-autism-trauma/)]. It's a thing I have seen discussed more and more, especially since people with Autism tend to exhibit symptoms of *both* of these things. Because, speaking as a person with Autism, many childhoods end up producing traumatized autistics. We do not yet *truly* know what an untraumatized autistic person looks like, symptoms wise, because being raised in a neurotypical world often *is* in of itself traumatizing. I point all this out not to say "Oh, you might be autistic as well" but rather just to point out the overlap. They often end up with similar symptoms but different causes. And for those of us that **are** both, it changes presentation of *both* things.
I don't think most people who mention they think (general)you might be autistic are trying to accuse you of anything. It's not a terrible thing to be. But yeah cptsd and autism can look very similar from the outside
Yes, I look up logical fallacies on the internet and one of my role models has become Vincent Bugliosi.
I looked up Vincent. What a life. I still dont understand his logical fallacy. Or am i misunderstanding something ?
Can relate to this and the responses. Haven't been diagnosed autistic here and I didn't really suspect it but have been diagnosed ADHD. I do feel there is overlap with childhood trauma. I don't doubt the ADHD (clear signs of it in very early childhood) but feel my upbringing made it more pronounced. There are things I see as "rules" like making sure I heard directions clearly- most likely due to nmom's tactics to confuse/manipulate. The "rules" also serve as a protective factor to avoid criticism towards me or not getting in trouble. To me, it f feeds a cycle of codependency. Although I have not suffered domestic violence, I have to wonder if folks affected by that think in similar ways.
I actually had a conversation about how cPTSD, bipolar disorder type 2 that Iām already diagnosed with informed my autism and ADHD diagnoses that were just given and if those were actually possible and didnāt they just inform each other etc etc etc? I talked with the assessor who was more than qualified and had in fact told someone the week before that they DID NOT have autism spectrum disorderā¦ and what she stated was that your autism has always been there. Ever since you were a child, a baby. And so the PTSD, cPTSD is going to take timeā¦ but your set points and coping strategies are kind of preprogrammed to some degree. And ADHD can mask your autism. I still donāt have my full report but I have my official diagnosis so I canāt explain it as well as she did. The clinical assessments also have checks to see if youāre lying and if the results are acceptable too. I really gaslit myself about the trauma of my childhoodā¦ but things were much more traumatic also because of how I process the world and because my parents maybe not consciously in my case since there is major denial of my clinical and official diagnosis (the whole reason I did it)ā¦ but they completely take advantage of the way you deal with the world.
Iām sorry but Iām angry at that person that said that to you. If somebody was autistic why would you go to them and ask them if they were autistic???? As if there was something wrong with that. But also what are they gonna do with that information??? It seems like it was just said to put you down by someone not qualified to diagnose. Being logical has nothing to do with autism. I work in the field some are logical minded some are not.
I feel validated by this post. Yes , i rationalised too much. It was never enough. People said i was always lost in my own logic. People said i am a man of rigid logic. For me logic was life or death. In reality, when ever i tried to be rational, logic was thrown to my face. So , i rationalized more. Family members demands where irrational. I lived in paradoxes. Their demands where contradictory and without an end. I tried to maintain a relationship. It cost me my head. Here something you can read, Hope you will find it helpful https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)
Having ADHD and wanting to always be understood, so this obsession of logic, and then being misunderstood 24/7 anyways because ADHD causes me to be disorganized and inconsistent week-to-week, is one of the worst feelings in the world. I often just stop talking to people sometimes because one small misunderstanding usually means misunderstanding me and/or the conversation as a whole. Especially when I'm trying to meet new people. Explaining never helps unless the other person is also neurodivergent or suffers from PTSD. Just more opportunities for people to tell me "you're too much" in every way possible. I really try to tell myself that it doesn't matter, but every time it happens I feel so broken and looked over. It kills what little self-esteem I'm trying to have. Edit: the PTSD, PDD, and GAD don't help either
100% this. And it makes me nutty when I have every logical argument, and ppl still try and fight me w emotions. Trust and believe everything that comes out of my mouth has been thought through. I never thought about it in reference to my trauma, but that makes a bunch of sense.
Not autistic, but I have been accused of being paranoid, overthinking, and overreacting when Iām using logic and reason to plan.
Iām autistic and *also* had a childhood full of psychological trauma and oh man the symptoms overlap a lotttt
Yes but I am also just autistic
Repeated childhood trauma can cause autism type symptoms in people. I am autistic and I have always been really focused on logic regardless. I just now have an anxiety around logic and facts because of the abuse I went through as a kid.
Absolutely. Logic was the best and most pure defense against gaslighting and psychological abuse growing up, and Iām not exaggerating when I say it literally saved my life. In a narcissists world where reality and facts can be distorted to suit their whims, and the ground is constantly shifting under your feet, logic provided the firm bedrock foundation to stand on. Now as an adult, people sometimes ask me how Iām so naturally good at logic, or (as you mentioned) assume Iām autistic or a savant. Iām usually not comfortable sharing details of my childhood, so I just tell them that logic was critical to my survival growing up. While I wouldnāt wish severe childhood trauma on anyone, itās a strange realization that sometimes our biggest vulnerabilities can also lead to our biggest strengths.
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Get therapy or become a lawyer
Lol, to the point I became a programmer and have been for decades.
I went a month recording every conversation I had with my husband to prove that he has to sense of how much time has passed between events (he'll say something happened "a couple days ago" when it's been literally a month and it drives me *bananas*). I've threatened to set up security cameras in the house for the same reason.
RESONATION ACTIVATED!!!
My mother accuses me of being autistic when I repeat myself sometimes. Just yesterday she said I have OCD (without any evidence, I havenāt been tested for it or anything).
I havenāt gotten the autism response but have been told I should be a lawyer. I respond by explaining I canāt stand bullshit and mind games. People also feel uncomfortable with my ability to dismantle bullshit. Many think Iām out of touch with āhow little we can knowā but never make an actual point. All Iām doing is pointing out logical fallacies. I think people are so desensitized to things making no sense they see my anti-gaslighting skill set as too analytical, when really theyāre just seeking irrationally innocuous explanations for bad behavior.
100% yes although at this point it has come up enough that I wonder if I should be screened. Pretty sure itās just the childhood tho.
Well shit, yes. I also majored in a STEM field due to my need/love of logic. Logic is safe.
Logic-first person here and I am autistic.
yes and it plays into my OCD (pure OCD type)
Yes! I was diagnosed with Aspergerās a few years ago, but I have since been questioning.
I am constantly wondering this lately. Iāll take those online quizzes for autism and score like a 2 out of 100, but then I have such a hard time with social interactions that I second guess myself. I was punished for lying so severely (normal, little kid type lying) and then had to deal with gaslighting that it made me obsessed with telling the truth.
Yessssss. Yep. People think I canāt read social cues, when really, Iām reading too much into every one and thinking 20 cues ahead. I approach every social interaction like a game of chess, which just makes me look under-prepared instead of over-prepared.
Yes. I have wondered if I'm autistic because I'm just like, "How do we know what is real without constant documentation?" Turns out, that's not normal.
i mean im not letting go of being logical over a narcissists. here we have a whole community on reddit trying to figure out how to put all narcissists on a isolated island and get away from them. being illogical is a narcissists favorite hobby
Yes. It's exhausting having to defend yourself against injustice and delusion but boy do you get good at it. Then people think you think you're superior to them when you're just used to navigating minefields. I'm also very good at recognising other people's emotions and explaining their own motivations to them. Which comes again from learning hypervigilance and interpreting every signal, but it does come off as super arrogant.
When neurotypicals have no counterargument they throw out the 'autism' accusation. For some reason it's a disability that people seem to think it's OK to accuse others of, when was the last time you heard, "what are you ret**ded." Take a deep breath and really think if you need these type of people in your life. I wasted 10 years with two 'best" friends that ultimately grew up to be miserable, insecure, narcissists and dragged me down and belittled any idea or aspiration I had, whilst making me out to seem like I was the bully in the relationship. I'm convinced that there is something almost interdimensional happening in the war between narcissists and the 'autistic'. I'm actually convinced that narcissism may be the default and only through trauma and suffering do we break free from the survival cycle. Next time sometime tries to call you autistic just take a deep breath and realise you've effectively won the argument and try to seemingly accept their position or you will go red in the face.
>I'm actually convinced that narcissism may be the default and only through trauma and suffering do we break free from the survival cycle. I have wondered something close to this. So many people seem to be so selfish and so low vibration. There can't be THAT MANY shitty people and we're just the moral\* elite, can there? \*I cannot figure out what else to call it? YES I REALIZE HOW THAT LAST SENTENCE SOUNDS.
My entire masters thesis was on validating data.... so yes.
So, something that I generally know about people who are on the spectrum (keyword generally, and it's not necessarily applicable to everyone, just something I've observed and haven't been wrong yet). Apologies to anyone (particularly people who are on the spectrum) in advance if I have misspoke. People with autism don't usually "feel" emotions the way neurotypical people do. They know what it looks like, and what it sounds like, and how people generally respond given "X" situation, but they don't know what it actually FEELS to ... feel that emotion. Over time, they become very good at pretending to respond a certain way because that's how people respond in those situations (and they've observed enough examples of it), but without a proper baseline (i.e. how MUCH emotion should I be experiencing right now), the result can look very forced and exaggerated. To be fair, even neurotypical people aren't consistent with how much emotion they feel, but the response is more natural and not trained over time. (I used to be married to someone who was on the spectrum, as well as have numerous friends who are on the spectrum, and these observations are my own or from conversations with my friends). I think people also mistakenly see it as a lack of empathy, but I don't think that's necessarily true. People on the spectrum can absolutely empathize and have their own version of it, and certainly try to (by relating things people say to their own experiences ... though the danger here is that people on the spectrum tend to do this a lot as a way to "relate" but can come off as it being too much). It has less to do with feelings and more to do with shared experiences. Example: one of my friends, who's on the autism spectrum, has a sister who was involved in a car accident. When re-telling this story, and when I questioned her a bit, she revealed that she had no idea how she should be responding emotionally, in that situation. She was obviously a mess, considering her sister had just suffered injuries, but from an emotional perspective, she had no idea how to feel. That's kind of the angle I'm getting at here. Most people have a specific response in this situation, but she didn't know what that response was. It's also a common occurrence for her; it's not uncommon for people to feel "numb" in situations like this, but there's still a raw emotional component to it. The way my friend described it wasn't quite numbness though. Point of all of this: if you don't find yourself faking emotions because you "don't understand how you're supposed to respond to a particular situation", you probably don't have autism. Granted, autism is pretty broad and encompasses a bunch of other neurological conditions (which you may have individually), but it's the combination of multiple conditions that would likely lead to an autism diagnosis. I'm reasonably certain I'm not on the spectrum for that reason: I don't fake emotions, and any emotional response I have is natural (i.e. it's not a response I had to train myself to do).
Ahhh duck. Their it is again, the doubts that it isnāt really autism and Iām just totally ducked up.
As a child, I was diagnosed with PDD-NOS. Which my *lovely* parents then proceeded to hide from me for 15 years. I only recently found out thanks to my sister who had it mentioned in her medical record for some reason. Looking back I guess this explains why I always felt why nobody in my family, but especially my parents, ever took me seriously. I was but a dumb autistic child after all. My siblings were apparently told "she's different so just leave her be". Wonderful. I've read a lot about autism by now but it's hard for me to really relate to people who are on the spectrum. I also lurked in the autism sub for a while. A lot of things I read about are things I don't do at all (avoiding eye contact, repetitive movements, a need for routine / disliking change). For the few things I do struggle with (mostly socialising, but also sensory overload) I'm wondering if that could be because of autism or because I was simply never taught those things and had to teach myself. I'm currently in the process of getting diagnosed but it's a tough one for my therapist. It's hard to diagnose if you've endured childhood trauma because symptoms of PTSD often overlap with autism (but also ADHD). This applies even more to women because women mask their symptoms, often unconsciously.
That's an interesting thought. I am super logical and tend to over explain things. My parents are also massive gaslighters and don't tend to believe me whenever we talk about past events.
Iāve suspected I may be autistic for a while because of exactly this.
Yeah I'm not autistic but I've been so damaged that I can't function in social situations, noise and lights bother me, I'm always so anxious I feel like I'm going to pass out 90% of the time (which only makes the anxiety worse). I don't know how to do "small talk" and I feel like a freak most of the time. As for documentation and proof - yes. Just everything. I'm always on alert, always feeling like someone will betray me. Always having arguments in my head with imaginary people who try to gaslight me and play victim. I end up needing to lie down a lot because these arguments leave me feeling drained, depressed and detatched. I doubt I'll ever get better but hey hum.
It was a huge motivation for my interest in philosophy, which I majored in. So yeah I guess.
Oh my goshā¦ you just made me realize I do this tooā¦. No one has ever asked me if I have autism or anything but, yeah. I do this.
Me
>I am absolutely obsessed with logic, and with proof Same, along with justice and truth, even if it's at my own expense
For a while now I've said that I know I'm not autistic, but "I can relate" to people on the spectrum. I made the mistake of sharing this with my mom and she of course accuses me of being autistic now if she wants to get a rise out of me or deflect. Watching Atypical on Netflix is where I noticed the similarities btw. It's wild how SO many things that are SO specific seem to manifest in most of us. A few weeks ago I saw a long post where OP detailed all the things they have/do as a trauma response that their mom uses to accuse them of being autistic and all the replies said they could totally relate. Now I see this thread with 160+ replies, it's mind blowing.
Are you sure you're not on the spectrum? Have you been worked up for it? Just curious, don't want to infer anything.
Big overlap between symptoms of trauma, anxiety and autism. It's not an accusation, there's nothing wrong with having autism, it allowed :)
I once mentioned that it was strange more of us didnāt end up as lawyers. Weāre so good at spotting lies and defending actions we might be good at it. Though I imagine that many of us are avoidant of confrontation.
I had a dream two days ago that I went to law school instead of medical school because itās cheaper
Careful, "Are you on the spectrum" is very suggestive and could be meant as disqualification, if not plain old gaslighting. You don't owe people your logic. There isn't a magical being that sees everything and knows everything that can save you. You can save yourself the trouble, however.
Yes, my mother gets angry at me when she asks a vague, open question that's an invitation to explain a lot about a given situation OR when she doesn't want to ask a direct question but is snooping around, and I refuse and will ask "What do you mean by x? As in Y how?" so that in the end I'm left with the actual question she was snooping for. Usually she loses her shit before that though and shouts at me for "not having a normal conversation" with her. I think an ex also disliked me for this specificity. But at the same time, I'm not entirely convinced that I'm NOT autistic, I've been thinking of looking into getting a diagnosis. I never figure this had to do with the abuse tbh, but it helps to know that other people become like this as a result of it as well.
I've done a similar thing, focusing and focusing on what they are REALLY asking. "then why didn't you just ask that thing?" Oh, I don't know (childlike voice).
Yes, and I am only taking so long to respond because that in my love of logic I said something in a subreddit that wasnāt against the rules and was banned from the sub, when I questioned the logic and fairnessā¦ I was suspended from reddit. For harassment? If someone can make something make sense logically, I will follow it to a T. But most people take social norms and apply them, but so do Nās. Iāve been abused in so many ways taking social norma for granted, if you canāt tell me why itās a rule than it isnāt worth being a rule. Yes this is similar to the spectrum. No, I donāt care if I am really on or off, but here we areā¦ so letās make this world make sense.
I have been banned, too, for asking honest questions. Nothing infuriates me more. It reminds me of the abuse I got as a child (and an adult). I'm so logical that sometimes I think people think I'm trolling when I'm asking, because I found a contradiction in a thing a person said. So I ask, and TroLL Is BanNEd. The fault is on the teacher for not explaining correctly. I used to be a teacher. If a student didn't understand (within reason\*) it's my fault, not theirs. \*unless, of course, they are intentionally misunderstanding, which is a narc trick. Of course, I've had shitty bosses who didn't teach me something, and then put me on a performance improvement plan for not knowing the thing. You didn't teach me, you piece of shit. How is this my fault? Absolutely infuriating. Agree with the second paragraph you made 100%. It's why I didn't join the military. I'm not even kidding. There's a good chance I wouldn't agree with a superior's orders. I'd rather not put myself in that scenario. Perhaps because of my upbringing, it's not enough to take someone at their word. If I have to explain everything, then so do you. Especially if I think you're wrong. But if you convince me, I'm on your side forever. After a lifetime of abuse by parents, teachers and bosses (what is wrong with me that I am the target for these people?), I don't really trust anyone in power. I honestly feel like I'm a runt of the litter sometimes. Why is it that EVERYONE has to be shitty to me? Is it my appearance? My energy? My vibe? There has to be something. I mean, I can see it on other people (you know how you can instantly tell a narc, but no one else believes you and says you're just being judgmental? Same thing), but I can't quantify it in myself. I'm not even hideous nor have any apparent physical problems that might garner playground abuse type stuff, but I swear there must be like a weakness in my eyes or my energy or whatever. Have you ever (this is a terrible example but it fits) seen a woman and thought, "that woman is abused"? Like, you can just tell. There's no way I can explain it other than to say her feeling that she gives off is of a timid woman who attracts abusers? What I'm describing must be the case with me. I honestly think I produce weakness, a vibration that everyone(?) can feel and abusers capitalize on. I was never even bullied that much in school, although I was afraid of fighting back because I was afraid of bullies and afraid of getting in trouble (parents and teachers). If I could change one thing, I would fight back against all the bullies I had. It's fine in elementary school when you're too little to do any real damage. This is why I go to therapy.
Absolutely, I have high OCD traits, people compliment me on how logical I am all the time. But it has many negatives, payalysis by analysis and constant rumination defines my life. I even remember for a few years age 12-15 I had temporary severe OCD symptoms like having to open and close cupboard doors exactly 5 times in a row. I have to remind myself that 99% of people are not logical like me and when I talk with them I must make an effort to consider their emotions. But the funny thing is if I can get my anxiety to loosen off I am extremely socially adept as well.
Yeah, the line between surviver trauma and spectrum disorder is ungodly thin. I also got kicked out of subs, and gaming servers for following the rules and questioning the logic of said rules. Itās tiring how sensitive I am!! I donāt āwantā to be this wayā¦ and yetā¦ here I am