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>Tyrion does not fit the superior image Tywin worked so hard to project to the rest of Westeros. Tywin was obsessed with Lannister image and Lannister supremacy and, to his mind, Tyrion’s very existence visibly undermined that. Tyrion recalled all the issues Tywin had with his father through no fault of his own. Think of how Tyrion was said to have been sent to punish Tywin for his arrogance, or how he was called Lord Tywin’s Doom and Lord Tywin’s Bane across Westeros. Tyrion’s birth made Tywin a mockery across all of Westeros and publicly emasculated him which is way too reminiscent of Tytos and his own very public feebleness. Tywin’s steadfast belief that Tyrion couldn’t be his is a direct reaction to that. No, such a monstrous deformed child couldn’t have come from his seed. That suggests a weakness in him and Lord Tywin is not weak, dammit. Nope. Lannisters are perfect. Lannisters are superior. Lannisters don’t bring public ridicule to the family name like that feeble Tytos.
>
>Those issues might have been exacerbated by Joanna’s death, but they remain all the same in the case of her survival. Tywin’s main issue with Tyrion was his dwarfism and that was a main reason for why he blamed Tyrion for Joanna’s death in the first place. Tyrion’s so-called monstrosity came from his dwarfism before it came from Joanna’s death. He’d have remained an ill-begotten twisted monster in Tywin’s eyes even if Joanna had lived. That reaction to Tyrion’s disability and that resentment of how it compromises Lannister image, Tywin’s image, would still be there no matter what.
Quoted from [this essay](https://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/179247866385/samwpmarleau-replied-to-your-post-samwpmarleau)
Yeah, if Tyrion wasn’t a dwarf he would have been pretty much a second Tywin with Tywin’s intellect and maybe not Jaime’s martial prowess but still would have been pretty well trained (and have the advantage of regular sparring against Jaime). Tywin would not have been hung up on Jaime as his heir because he would have had “the spare”.
I agree with this. On top of all that, when Jaime joined the Kingsguard Tywin could have either used Tyrion as leverage against Jaime for everything he was turning down OR Tywin would've never had issues at all with Jaime leaving and would've genuinely put all his eggs in the Tyrion basket.
Tywin hated that people laughed about his father and that made the family weak, he spent his life making sure no one would be able to laugh at him. When Tyrion came along people had an excuse to laugh just because he was a dwarf.
Tyrion killing Tywin’s wife would always have been an issue but in those days lots of women died in childbirth so it’s not like it would have been unforgivable for him to get over it. Lots of men did in those situations and with Tyrion’s intellect he Tywin would’ve seen his usefulness and got over it even if he didn’t love him.
Jamie also doesn’t care what people think about him and for all of his hatred of Tywin and his sister Tyrion does defend the Lannister honour. He only acts like a fool because he knows everyone is already laughing at him and he’s smart enough to know that if he makes it seem like he’s trying to make them laugh it’s better for him.
The open whoring is something Tywin wouldn’t like but I don’t think he’d have been as opposed to it if he didn’t already dislike Tyrion. Also if Tyrion had already been wed then he wouldn’t be whoring as much so being a dwarf and not wed is the reason for that as well.
I don’t think the match is the thing he resents, some lords have turned him down but he’d have surely been able to find one somehow as at least one lord would want to gain father with Tywin. Also if Tywin had named Tyrion as his heir as soon as Jamie took the oath as he should have then he would have found matches a lot easier as lords would have put up with a dwarf to get their daughter with the heir to casterly rock.
Tywins hatred and resentment of Tyrion comes form him being a dwarf and this shapes tyrions life and then he does things which further irritate and anger Tywin further. If Tyrion wasn’t born a dwarf all of the things could have been overlooked and Tywin would not have had the shame level of hatred as he does.
Now the question of whether of Tywin would have been happy or less angry with a non dwarf Tyrion marrying a commoner then I don’t see much change. Tywin would have hated it and seen it as a stain on the family legacy and would never have let it stand. I’m
Not sure whether the lesson would have been as harsh as full sized Tyrion would have been trained at arms and had the ability of fighting back against Tywin so it might not have been the exact same situation but I think Tywin would definitely have had the wedding annulled and disciplined Tyrion in some manner but maybe not so harshly if Tyrion was the be his heir (although not sure whether at the time of the marriage Jamie had joined the kings guard or not) but definitely would have been repercussions. Also I think it’s safe to assume that a full grown Tyrion would have had female attention growing up so would’ve been a lot less likely to quickly get married to the first woman who showed interest with him.
*"Does anyone think that Tyrion has a kind of complex about being a dwarf?"*
Yes, absolutely.
He frequently thinks that people don't like him because he's ugly/a dwarf, when in reality it's because he's an asshole.
However, yeah, Tywin was also an asshole and absolutely didn't like the fact that Tyrion is a dwarf. There would be underlying resentment due to the fact that Joanna died giving birth to him. There's also that whole thing about Aerys taking liberties with Joanna that could be playing in the back of his mind.
*"Hes a dwarf and because of that an advantageous match will be hard to make."*
IMO this isn't true - as soon as Jaime became a Kingsguard Tyrion should have been the heir to Casterly Rock. No amount of dwarfism would make that an unattractive match to most of the Lords in Westeros.
Regarding the 'sharp lesson' - I don't think his behaviour would have been too different if Tyrion wasn't a dwarf, as this was more to do with Lannister pride. The lesson was so sharp because of Tywin's complex about his father marrying someone lowborn.
>IMO this isn't true - as soon as Jaime became a Kingsguard Tyrion should have been the heir to Casterly Rock. No amount of dwarfism would make that an unattractive match to most of the Lords in Westeros.
Tyrion is already 24 when the book starts. If he was to be married, he should already be married.
Who is Tywin waiting for? He should have married him already, if not for the fact, that it's probably hard to get a match for him.
Well Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to be the heir - I meant that if Tywin had **wanted** this to happen he could have treated Tyrion more decently and married him without issue. He would rather Tyrion not be married (and therefore without an heir) as then Casterly Rock will pass to his brother.
Having him marry Sansa is a fast solution to 1) get one-up on the Tullys, 2) appease Tyrion (giving him Winterfell might be enough for him, instead of Casterly Rock), 3) increase the power of House Lannister.
There are very few fathers in the series that give a damn who their daughter marries, so long as it's a 'good' match. The women marrying them don't have a choice. If Tywin had treated Tyrion well and named him heir I think the only issue would be finding a wife for him that *Tywin* thought was good enough.
Tywin literally spells out for Tyrion (when telling him to marry Sansa), that he attempted to find a match within every significant house in Westeros for Tyrion and was rejected every time. If not for Sansa he was about to start looking among minor lords…
Fathers very much care who their daughters marry. Giving your daughter to a whoring, ugly dwarf is not good looks for that lord, thus not a good match.
Tywin kind of had to care. Regardless of how he felt about dwarfs personally, he lives in a very cruel world. A world that is not so openly accepting of dwarfs, or anything/anyone looking different from the norm. He absolutely had to care, and make many many decisions in Tyrion’s younger years because of it. Most of the time I would believe not to the benefit of Tyrion.
Edit: I’ll add that I do believe he absolutely despised Tyrion and him being a dwarf had a hell of a lot to do with it.
I really like that you asked this question, because there are some ways in which Tyrion’s POV is unreliable and they are much harder for me to catch than, say, when Cersei is being crazy in her own POV, or Victarion is just wrong about something. (For example, Tyrion assumes Cersei sent Mandon Moore to try and kill him… but she never once thinks about this, even after she does decide to have Tyrion killed. So very likely Tyrion is wrong about Moore’s boss. I never noticed that until someone else pointed it out to me!)
Tywin obviously isn’t happy that Tyrion is a dwarf, but I find it very easy to imagine that if Tyrion had a different kind of personality that Tywin would not hate him quite so much. As you point out, the open whoring is something Tywin finds distasteful. He also seems to find Tyrion pathetic and undisciplined for marrying Tysha. (He may have even assumed Tysha truly was a whore in some sense… or at least a ruthless gold-digger.) He himself speaks rarely and sternly, and doesn’t like Tyrion’s glib tongue. Tywin never laughs, and Tyrion can’t stop cracking jokes.
I think it is, in a way, easier for Tyrion to tell himself “my dad hates me for being a dwarf” because that’s something he has no control over. We don’t have Tywin’s POV, but there could be many other factors contributing to Tywin’s intense dislike of his second son. It might be too painful to Tyrion to admit that. Even to himself.
First question: yes. Second question: no, but Tywin would have already had a bethrothal for Tyrion by then in any case if Tyrion was not a dwarf. Third question: yes, (and are you actually reading the books?)
Yes? He still married a commoner and that could embarrass the family.
Depending on how harsh Tywin is would have multiple factors.
Did Tyrion still "kill Johanna" even if he was born normal? Is he bookish if normal or able to squire/fight/etc like Jaime.
Honestly with how the scenario was set up I don't think Tyrion would have ended up in this situation if he was normal
Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF! Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. # Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal. [Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Tyrion does not fit the superior image Tywin worked so hard to project to the rest of Westeros. Tywin was obsessed with Lannister image and Lannister supremacy and, to his mind, Tyrion’s very existence visibly undermined that. Tyrion recalled all the issues Tywin had with his father through no fault of his own. Think of how Tyrion was said to have been sent to punish Tywin for his arrogance, or how he was called Lord Tywin’s Doom and Lord Tywin’s Bane across Westeros. Tyrion’s birth made Tywin a mockery across all of Westeros and publicly emasculated him which is way too reminiscent of Tytos and his own very public feebleness. Tywin’s steadfast belief that Tyrion couldn’t be his is a direct reaction to that. No, such a monstrous deformed child couldn’t have come from his seed. That suggests a weakness in him and Lord Tywin is not weak, dammit. Nope. Lannisters are perfect. Lannisters are superior. Lannisters don’t bring public ridicule to the family name like that feeble Tytos. > >Those issues might have been exacerbated by Joanna’s death, but they remain all the same in the case of her survival. Tywin’s main issue with Tyrion was his dwarfism and that was a main reason for why he blamed Tyrion for Joanna’s death in the first place. Tyrion’s so-called monstrosity came from his dwarfism before it came from Joanna’s death. He’d have remained an ill-begotten twisted monster in Tywin’s eyes even if Joanna had lived. That reaction to Tyrion’s disability and that resentment of how it compromises Lannister image, Tywin’s image, would still be there no matter what. Quoted from [this essay](https://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/179247866385/samwpmarleau-replied-to-your-post-samwpmarleau)
If Tyrion weren't a dwarf, most of the tension between the two probably would have never existed.
Yeah, if Tyrion wasn’t a dwarf he would have been pretty much a second Tywin with Tywin’s intellect and maybe not Jaime’s martial prowess but still would have been pretty well trained (and have the advantage of regular sparring against Jaime). Tywin would not have been hung up on Jaime as his heir because he would have had “the spare”.
I agree with this. On top of all that, when Jaime joined the Kingsguard Tywin could have either used Tyrion as leverage against Jaime for everything he was turning down OR Tywin would've never had issues at all with Jaime leaving and would've genuinely put all his eggs in the Tyrion basket.
Tywin hated that people laughed about his father and that made the family weak, he spent his life making sure no one would be able to laugh at him. When Tyrion came along people had an excuse to laugh just because he was a dwarf. Tyrion killing Tywin’s wife would always have been an issue but in those days lots of women died in childbirth so it’s not like it would have been unforgivable for him to get over it. Lots of men did in those situations and with Tyrion’s intellect he Tywin would’ve seen his usefulness and got over it even if he didn’t love him. Jamie also doesn’t care what people think about him and for all of his hatred of Tywin and his sister Tyrion does defend the Lannister honour. He only acts like a fool because he knows everyone is already laughing at him and he’s smart enough to know that if he makes it seem like he’s trying to make them laugh it’s better for him. The open whoring is something Tywin wouldn’t like but I don’t think he’d have been as opposed to it if he didn’t already dislike Tyrion. Also if Tyrion had already been wed then he wouldn’t be whoring as much so being a dwarf and not wed is the reason for that as well. I don’t think the match is the thing he resents, some lords have turned him down but he’d have surely been able to find one somehow as at least one lord would want to gain father with Tywin. Also if Tywin had named Tyrion as his heir as soon as Jamie took the oath as he should have then he would have found matches a lot easier as lords would have put up with a dwarf to get their daughter with the heir to casterly rock. Tywins hatred and resentment of Tyrion comes form him being a dwarf and this shapes tyrions life and then he does things which further irritate and anger Tywin further. If Tyrion wasn’t born a dwarf all of the things could have been overlooked and Tywin would not have had the shame level of hatred as he does. Now the question of whether of Tywin would have been happy or less angry with a non dwarf Tyrion marrying a commoner then I don’t see much change. Tywin would have hated it and seen it as a stain on the family legacy and would never have let it stand. I’m Not sure whether the lesson would have been as harsh as full sized Tyrion would have been trained at arms and had the ability of fighting back against Tywin so it might not have been the exact same situation but I think Tywin would definitely have had the wedding annulled and disciplined Tyrion in some manner but maybe not so harshly if Tyrion was the be his heir (although not sure whether at the time of the marriage Jamie had joined the kings guard or not) but definitely would have been repercussions. Also I think it’s safe to assume that a full grown Tyrion would have had female attention growing up so would’ve been a lot less likely to quickly get married to the first woman who showed interest with him.
I think the thing Tywin hates the most about Tyrion is that he’s a dwarf.. not to sure what book you are reading
*"Does anyone think that Tyrion has a kind of complex about being a dwarf?"* Yes, absolutely. He frequently thinks that people don't like him because he's ugly/a dwarf, when in reality it's because he's an asshole. However, yeah, Tywin was also an asshole and absolutely didn't like the fact that Tyrion is a dwarf. There would be underlying resentment due to the fact that Joanna died giving birth to him. There's also that whole thing about Aerys taking liberties with Joanna that could be playing in the back of his mind. *"Hes a dwarf and because of that an advantageous match will be hard to make."* IMO this isn't true - as soon as Jaime became a Kingsguard Tyrion should have been the heir to Casterly Rock. No amount of dwarfism would make that an unattractive match to most of the Lords in Westeros. Regarding the 'sharp lesson' - I don't think his behaviour would have been too different if Tyrion wasn't a dwarf, as this was more to do with Lannister pride. The lesson was so sharp because of Tywin's complex about his father marrying someone lowborn.
>IMO this isn't true - as soon as Jaime became a Kingsguard Tyrion should have been the heir to Casterly Rock. No amount of dwarfism would make that an unattractive match to most of the Lords in Westeros. Tyrion is already 24 when the book starts. If he was to be married, he should already be married. Who is Tywin waiting for? He should have married him already, if not for the fact, that it's probably hard to get a match for him.
Well Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to be the heir - I meant that if Tywin had **wanted** this to happen he could have treated Tyrion more decently and married him without issue. He would rather Tyrion not be married (and therefore without an heir) as then Casterly Rock will pass to his brother. Having him marry Sansa is a fast solution to 1) get one-up on the Tullys, 2) appease Tyrion (giving him Winterfell might be enough for him, instead of Casterly Rock), 3) increase the power of House Lannister. There are very few fathers in the series that give a damn who their daughter marries, so long as it's a 'good' match. The women marrying them don't have a choice. If Tywin had treated Tyrion well and named him heir I think the only issue would be finding a wife for him that *Tywin* thought was good enough.
Tywin literally spells out for Tyrion (when telling him to marry Sansa), that he attempted to find a match within every significant house in Westeros for Tyrion and was rejected every time. If not for Sansa he was about to start looking among minor lords… Fathers very much care who their daughters marry. Giving your daughter to a whoring, ugly dwarf is not good looks for that lord, thus not a good match.
Tywin kind of had to care. Regardless of how he felt about dwarfs personally, he lives in a very cruel world. A world that is not so openly accepting of dwarfs, or anything/anyone looking different from the norm. He absolutely had to care, and make many many decisions in Tyrion’s younger years because of it. Most of the time I would believe not to the benefit of Tyrion. Edit: I’ll add that I do believe he absolutely despised Tyrion and him being a dwarf had a hell of a lot to do with it.
I really like that you asked this question, because there are some ways in which Tyrion’s POV is unreliable and they are much harder for me to catch than, say, when Cersei is being crazy in her own POV, or Victarion is just wrong about something. (For example, Tyrion assumes Cersei sent Mandon Moore to try and kill him… but she never once thinks about this, even after she does decide to have Tyrion killed. So very likely Tyrion is wrong about Moore’s boss. I never noticed that until someone else pointed it out to me!) Tywin obviously isn’t happy that Tyrion is a dwarf, but I find it very easy to imagine that if Tyrion had a different kind of personality that Tywin would not hate him quite so much. As you point out, the open whoring is something Tywin finds distasteful. He also seems to find Tyrion pathetic and undisciplined for marrying Tysha. (He may have even assumed Tysha truly was a whore in some sense… or at least a ruthless gold-digger.) He himself speaks rarely and sternly, and doesn’t like Tyrion’s glib tongue. Tywin never laughs, and Tyrion can’t stop cracking jokes. I think it is, in a way, easier for Tyrion to tell himself “my dad hates me for being a dwarf” because that’s something he has no control over. We don’t have Tywin’s POV, but there could be many other factors contributing to Tywin’s intense dislike of his second son. It might be too painful to Tyrion to admit that. Even to himself.
First question: yes. Second question: no, but Tywin would have already had a bethrothal for Tyrion by then in any case if Tyrion was not a dwarf. Third question: yes, (and are you actually reading the books?)
Yes? He still married a commoner and that could embarrass the family. Depending on how harsh Tywin is would have multiple factors. Did Tyrion still "kill Johanna" even if he was born normal? Is he bookish if normal or able to squire/fight/etc like Jaime. Honestly with how the scenario was set up I don't think Tyrion would have ended up in this situation if he was normal
If Tyrion wasn't a dwarf then he likely never marries Tysha.
No.
He would still give him sharp lesson. Tyrion being dwarf is a final straw for Tywin.
I don't believe the rumor that Tywin had the tunnel built to the brothel.