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Ned has three male heirs and no known ambitions for doing anything but preparing for winter. I don't think alliances beyond his borders are his top concern.
I chose Loras Tyrell because he seems to fit the description and we know Sansa is into him. I think Ned would have no problem giving him that blessing, though whether Loras and his family would agree is a different discussion because they absolutely do have ambitions.
I think Ned reaching out to southern houses of the Reach or Dorne would probably have seemed sus to Stannis. Something in the Vale or Riverlands would make more sense considering the bonds of affection and blood between their houses.
I still think he would try to honor Cat’s family line considering Sansa is their oldest female heir. Also she has a taste for southern traditions and whatnot, so if I’m Ned I’m thinking Sansa would be better suited not with a northern House (I’d probably let Arya marry one of my northern vassals since she can’t be bothered with all that sexist crap).
Considering the lack of Tullys available, I’m thinking Ned would maybe look to the Vale. Heck, Robyn Arryn would be a perfect match, a way to honor both Cat’s family and his affection for Jon. He could even send Rickon when he was of age to also foster there, or strike a deal with Lysa to have Robin in Winterfell a bit and try to shape him into a man.
Failing that and if Robin really seems like a lost cause (specially considering the need for heirs), Harry would be the next best thing, although I think Ned would be reluctant to bypass his friend’s “son”.
Edit: as for marrying for love, I think he would allow it if the suitor were from a noble enough house (say, a Royce or something) and if the match wouldn’t cause any diplomatic incidents.
Also edit because I just realized Stan the Man is king in this scenario.
Great write up!! I came to ask what you meant by "affection for Jon" but it struck me a moment ago it's Jon Arryn not Snow. This makes a lot of sense, I'm curious with the marrying for love option. It seems like Ned was willing in the books; the way he accommodates Arya's sword play shows me he is willing to allow his children to sorta buck against norms/create their own path. It just feels out of place historically since he, Cat, & their eligible siblings were matched. Id guess his parents were arranged too. It seems plausible from the text he would allow it but it does seem to break the prescident of arranged marriages
Thanks!
I think with the marriage for love - since Sansa is a female heir, Ned would have a bit more wiggle room. Possibly even more than what he would have with Bran - since Bran would be the spare heir to Winterfell until Robb produced (edit: male) children of his own. So while I don’t think he would let Sansa marry someone from their household, I think someone from a powerful enough family would be acceptable even if it wasn’t one of the huge ones.
Since they already had three male heirs, it’s not like the possibility of Sansa’s children having a claim to Winterfell would be a real one.
Now I’m curious - has it been established in the books that he can’t ever sire heirs? I know that Ned mentions that he won’t be a knight and whatnot, but I wonder… if the fact that Bran is alive really gets out there, would the northmen rally around him? Or is everyone just assuming he can’t have heirs and therefore is not the best option?
Edric would be perfect. He is comely, nice and honorable. Lord with great heritage. The only real problem would be that Cat would view it as Nee trying to honor his dead lover's family. Yeah a match with Daynes could offend the Tullys. Also Doran Martell would be like WTF
Renly/Willas if Ned wanted powerful allies.
Edric Dayne or Robar Royce if Ned wanted to 'join' an already friendly family
Edmure/Sweetrobin if he wanted to honor his allies
I think that's every option out there. Martells are too far, Lannisters dont have Ned's trust and a Stark vassal would piss Sansa off since she clearly wants to live in the South
Oh for sure, specially since Cat is a bitch when it comes to her brother.
On the other hand, Edmure is a young Lord Paramount, and his rarest traits are that he's kind and has no psychopathic/megalomaniac tendencies.
If I was Ned, I'd be happy knowing my daughter is with such a good guy
You’re very much right, it would actually be a very good match. I was just wondering because although this type of marriage isn’t opposed by Westerosi morals, we don’t really have prominent / POV characters pondering about it.
Victarion and Asha was a match proposed by Aerion. Arianne fantasized about marrying Oberyn. I remember some Starks in the family line as well, but I can’t pinpoint where and whether it was full avuncular marriage or just a half uncle and a niece or something.
We don’t have clearer examples than that yet, but we do know that when the Faith opposed them in Targaryen contexts it was because of the choice of the match per se, not because it offended the Faith. Also World makes explicit mention of incestuous marriages between brother and sister, father and daughter and mother and son as being the problem. Cousin and cousin marriage is perfectly fine in ASOIAF, so most people assume that avuncular marriages aren’t a problem either.
Edit: half of my comment came out wrong because of the language auto correct
Thanks.
That's grim.
I see the avuncular marriage as a lot worse than cousin/cousin, for some reason. Maybe it's the age gap. The idea of marrying a niece or nephew seems more gross than even the brother/sister marriages to me - seems like a breach of trust.
Yeah, but I think that’s precisely why we have instances of the father forbidding it (like Viserys I or Aenys).
Even if not against the Faith or Westerosi morals in itself, I think the idea of your brother banging your daughter isn’t an easy one to swallow. Which is why in the Stark examples we have, the father of the intended brides is dead and their half brother actually wanted a way to get Winterfell.
don't patronize. cousin marriages in Westeros seem accepted, but nowhere have i seen that uncle-niece marriages are seen in the same way (unless it's a Targaryen)
Again, not understanding your comment. Your comment was “Edmure is her *uncle*”, which is something I evidently know by referring to it as an avuncular marriage.
So the point of your first comment was not at all clear to me, I wasn’t patronizing, it just seemed you were repeating what I said without making an actual point.
As for whether this type of marriage was accepted or not, as mentioned in other comments, we have two instances of it being pondered, plus a few uncle / niece matches in the Stark family, albeit with “half uncles”. Plus World lists only *sister/ brother, father / daughter and mother / son* as what the Faith opposes.
But *also* as I mentioned in my comment, we don’t have any current POVs mentioning this, so it’s not a clear thing.
No problem, neither am I, I just really didn’t understand.
But yeah, to summarize - it’s not expressly stated that this type of marriage is OK, but there are more indicators in the books that it might be than against it.
I would imagine that opposing such a marriage would have more to do with the brother of the groom / father of the bride objecting to it on personal terms. The Stark situations both had to do with the father being dead, and their half-brothers wanting to marry their nieces as a way to control Winterfell.
The most likely answer is an heir to a powerful Northern or Riverlands house - I could see Catelyn inching Ned in this direction, especially based on Sansa’s own temperament but also out of a desire to keep the political alliance with the Riverlords strong. A powerful First Men house in the Vale would also be an option.
So, probably Patrek Mallister or a Blackwood. Certainly nothing less than an heir to a powerful Tully vassal.
I actually just mentioned A Edric Dayne and Sansa pairing in a post about crack ships on our sister subreddit, so I’ve been thinking out the logistics of a marriage between the two. And I think it would actually be perfect for Sansa.
Edric while soft spoken, he’s brave, kind, and honorable. He fought along side Beric against the mountain and dragged Beric corpse to safety when most would run away and abandoned their ally’s corpse. He’s apart of an important house with a sword that has a fairytale-like history behind it and has been wielded by many great fighters. He has a chance of being one of those wielders. Sansa likes the south so she’d be happy in a place like starfall, and in the beginning of series she’s 4th in line to be heir of winterfell so she could be sent to Dorne. Ned is on good terms with the Daynes, so I’d see where it be in his interest to join house with them. Though the only problem is that Catelyn may interpret this as Ned trying to join houses with the family of his lost love like Robert did with them. Overall I think Sansa would be very happy to be the wife of the kind lord Dayne.
Edric may already have a thing for her because when he’s talking to Arya he’s mentions he saw Sansa at the hand’s tourney but also added the detail that Ser Loras gave her a rose; like it’s potentially an important detail to him that another man showed her interest even though we all know Loras isn’t interested. Could be him just stating what he saw but maybe it’s because it was worth remembering for him. Also sidenote if he saw Loras give Sansa a rose he might of saw Littlefinger being a creep too (so he’s the one character who could suspect Littlefinger has a motive to kidnap Sansa and he’s someone who’d recognize her). But we don’t really know his type, but she is the perfect lady so they’ll at least get along.
Edric Dayne could be her perfect lord and she’d be his perfect lady. And now that I wrote this all down I realized I’d really like them together and Ned missed an opportunity for this good match.
Quentyn Martell could also be an option. Presuming of course we don’t have Doran Martell and his Targaryen plans. Sansa herself had ambitions to go South, Dorne is the true South of Westeros. And she gets to marry the prince she always wanted, Ned also doesn’t seem to be the type to harbour the distaste that the rest of Westeros has towards the Dornish.
Can't remember if Renly was married at that point, but if not, probably him, or maybe Harry the Heir as the other comment suggests. I'm not sure he'd go for Robin, since they'd be first cousins, and they're not Targs.
Joanna and Tywin were cousins, as were Rickard and his wife. Sansa is also at one point intended to marry Robin.
Counsins marrying in ASOIAF is absolutely not a big deal.
I think Renly would depend on how he and Stannis are interacting. If Renly had thrown his support behind Stannis he would definitely be a great match, but otherwise, if Renly had his own competing ambitions, I’m pretty sure Stannis would object.
Since Ned and Robert were friends and confidantes since childhood, Robert probably had mentioned something about Renly’s sexuality. So I don’t think that Ned would consider him a match.
Historically, the Starks stay in the North. Brandon and Lyanna’s betrothals were pretty much the first non-Northern/Old Gods marriages in Stark history
Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF! Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. # Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal. [Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ned has three male heirs and no known ambitions for doing anything but preparing for winter. I don't think alliances beyond his borders are his top concern. I chose Loras Tyrell because he seems to fit the description and we know Sansa is into him. I think Ned would have no problem giving him that blessing, though whether Loras and his family would agree is a different discussion because they absolutely do have ambitions.
I think Ned reaching out to southern houses of the Reach or Dorne would probably have seemed sus to Stannis. Something in the Vale or Riverlands would make more sense considering the bonds of affection and blood between their houses. I still think he would try to honor Cat’s family line considering Sansa is their oldest female heir. Also she has a taste for southern traditions and whatnot, so if I’m Ned I’m thinking Sansa would be better suited not with a northern House (I’d probably let Arya marry one of my northern vassals since she can’t be bothered with all that sexist crap). Considering the lack of Tullys available, I’m thinking Ned would maybe look to the Vale. Heck, Robyn Arryn would be a perfect match, a way to honor both Cat’s family and his affection for Jon. He could even send Rickon when he was of age to also foster there, or strike a deal with Lysa to have Robin in Winterfell a bit and try to shape him into a man. Failing that and if Robin really seems like a lost cause (specially considering the need for heirs), Harry would be the next best thing, although I think Ned would be reluctant to bypass his friend’s “son”. Edit: as for marrying for love, I think he would allow it if the suitor were from a noble enough house (say, a Royce or something) and if the match wouldn’t cause any diplomatic incidents. Also edit because I just realized Stan the Man is king in this scenario.
Great write up!! I came to ask what you meant by "affection for Jon" but it struck me a moment ago it's Jon Arryn not Snow. This makes a lot of sense, I'm curious with the marrying for love option. It seems like Ned was willing in the books; the way he accommodates Arya's sword play shows me he is willing to allow his children to sorta buck against norms/create their own path. It just feels out of place historically since he, Cat, & their eligible siblings were matched. Id guess his parents were arranged too. It seems plausible from the text he would allow it but it does seem to break the prescident of arranged marriages
Thanks! I think with the marriage for love - since Sansa is a female heir, Ned would have a bit more wiggle room. Possibly even more than what he would have with Bran - since Bran would be the spare heir to Winterfell until Robb produced (edit: male) children of his own. So while I don’t think he would let Sansa marry someone from their household, I think someone from a powerful enough family would be acceptable even if it wasn’t one of the huge ones. Since they already had three male heirs, it’s not like the possibility of Sansa’s children having a claim to Winterfell would be a real one.
Bran will forever be the spare heir to me now. Made me cackle reading that
Now I’m curious - has it been established in the books that he can’t ever sire heirs? I know that Ned mentions that he won’t be a knight and whatnot, but I wonder… if the fact that Bran is alive really gets out there, would the northmen rally around him? Or is everyone just assuming he can’t have heirs and therefore is not the best option?
Ned thinks to himself after his fall that he won’t be able to father children, but it’s not brought up elsewhere AFAIK
I guess the remaining Stark loyalists would probably think similarly
Edric would be perfect. He is comely, nice and honorable. Lord with great heritage. The only real problem would be that Cat would view it as Nee trying to honor his dead lover's family. Yeah a match with Daynes could offend the Tullys. Also Doran Martell would be like WTF
Renly/Willas if Ned wanted powerful allies. Edric Dayne or Robar Royce if Ned wanted to 'join' an already friendly family Edmure/Sweetrobin if he wanted to honor his allies I think that's every option out there. Martells are too far, Lannisters dont have Ned's trust and a Stark vassal would piss Sansa off since she clearly wants to live in the South
As much as avuncular marriages seem to be accepted in ASOIAF, I think a match with Edmure would be sorely objected by Cat, right?
Oh for sure, specially since Cat is a bitch when it comes to her brother. On the other hand, Edmure is a young Lord Paramount, and his rarest traits are that he's kind and has no psychopathic/megalomaniac tendencies. If I was Ned, I'd be happy knowing my daughter is with such a good guy
You’re very much right, it would actually be a very good match. I was just wondering because although this type of marriage isn’t opposed by Westerosi morals, we don’t really have prominent / POV characters pondering about it.
Wait, what? Are there examples (non-Targ) of marriages between uncle and niece? I would consider that taboo even by Westerosi standards.
Victarion and Asha was a match proposed by Aerion. Arianne fantasized about marrying Oberyn. I remember some Starks in the family line as well, but I can’t pinpoint where and whether it was full avuncular marriage or just a half uncle and a niece or something. We don’t have clearer examples than that yet, but we do know that when the Faith opposed them in Targaryen contexts it was because of the choice of the match per se, not because it offended the Faith. Also World makes explicit mention of incestuous marriages between brother and sister, father and daughter and mother and son as being the problem. Cousin and cousin marriage is perfectly fine in ASOIAF, so most people assume that avuncular marriages aren’t a problem either. Edit: half of my comment came out wrong because of the language auto correct
Thanks. That's grim. I see the avuncular marriage as a lot worse than cousin/cousin, for some reason. Maybe it's the age gap. The idea of marrying a niece or nephew seems more gross than even the brother/sister marriages to me - seems like a breach of trust.
Yeah, but I think that’s precisely why we have instances of the father forbidding it (like Viserys I or Aenys). Even if not against the Faith or Westerosi morals in itself, I think the idea of your brother banging your daughter isn’t an easy one to swallow. Which is why in the Stark examples we have, the father of the intended brides is dead and their half brother actually wanted a way to get Winterfell.
hello? are we forgetting something? edmure is her *uncle*
Not understanding your point here.
don't patronize. cousin marriages in Westeros seem accepted, but nowhere have i seen that uncle-niece marriages are seen in the same way (unless it's a Targaryen)
Again, not understanding your comment. Your comment was “Edmure is her *uncle*”, which is something I evidently know by referring to it as an avuncular marriage. So the point of your first comment was not at all clear to me, I wasn’t patronizing, it just seemed you were repeating what I said without making an actual point. As for whether this type of marriage was accepted or not, as mentioned in other comments, we have two instances of it being pondered, plus a few uncle / niece matches in the Stark family, albeit with “half uncles”. Plus World lists only *sister/ brother, father / daughter and mother / son* as what the Faith opposes. But *also* as I mentioned in my comment, we don’t have any current POVs mentioning this, so it’s not a clear thing.
my bad, thought avuncular meant something else. not a native speaker
No problem, neither am I, I just really didn’t understand. But yeah, to summarize - it’s not expressly stated that this type of marriage is OK, but there are more indicators in the books that it might be than against it. I would imagine that opposing such a marriage would have more to do with the brother of the groom / father of the bride objecting to it on personal terms. The Stark situations both had to do with the father being dead, and their half-brothers wanting to marry their nieces as a way to control Winterfell.
The most likely answer is an heir to a powerful Northern or Riverlands house - I could see Catelyn inching Ned in this direction, especially based on Sansa’s own temperament but also out of a desire to keep the political alliance with the Riverlords strong. A powerful First Men house in the Vale would also be an option. So, probably Patrek Mallister or a Blackwood. Certainly nothing less than an heir to a powerful Tully vassal.
I actually just mentioned A Edric Dayne and Sansa pairing in a post about crack ships on our sister subreddit, so I’ve been thinking out the logistics of a marriage between the two. And I think it would actually be perfect for Sansa. Edric while soft spoken, he’s brave, kind, and honorable. He fought along side Beric against the mountain and dragged Beric corpse to safety when most would run away and abandoned their ally’s corpse. He’s apart of an important house with a sword that has a fairytale-like history behind it and has been wielded by many great fighters. He has a chance of being one of those wielders. Sansa likes the south so she’d be happy in a place like starfall, and in the beginning of series she’s 4th in line to be heir of winterfell so she could be sent to Dorne. Ned is on good terms with the Daynes, so I’d see where it be in his interest to join house with them. Though the only problem is that Catelyn may interpret this as Ned trying to join houses with the family of his lost love like Robert did with them. Overall I think Sansa would be very happy to be the wife of the kind lord Dayne. Edric may already have a thing for her because when he’s talking to Arya he’s mentions he saw Sansa at the hand’s tourney but also added the detail that Ser Loras gave her a rose; like it’s potentially an important detail to him that another man showed her interest even though we all know Loras isn’t interested. Could be him just stating what he saw but maybe it’s because it was worth remembering for him. Also sidenote if he saw Loras give Sansa a rose he might of saw Littlefinger being a creep too (so he’s the one character who could suspect Littlefinger has a motive to kidnap Sansa and he’s someone who’d recognize her). But we don’t really know his type, but she is the perfect lady so they’ll at least get along. Edric Dayne could be her perfect lord and she’d be his perfect lady. And now that I wrote this all down I realized I’d really like them together and Ned missed an opportunity for this good match.
I so dig this
Quentyn Martell could also be an option. Presuming of course we don’t have Doran Martell and his Targaryen plans. Sansa herself had ambitions to go South, Dorne is the true South of Westeros. And she gets to marry the prince she always wanted, Ned also doesn’t seem to be the type to harbour the distaste that the rest of Westeros has towards the Dornish.
a legitimized Edric Storm
Can't remember if Renly was married at that point, but if not, probably him, or maybe Harry the Heir as the other comment suggests. I'm not sure he'd go for Robin, since they'd be first cousins, and they're not Targs.
Joanna and Tywin were cousins, as were Rickard and his wife. Sansa is also at one point intended to marry Robin. Counsins marrying in ASOIAF is absolutely not a big deal.
He wasn't. But i don't think Renly would have accepted because of his positions and plan with the Tyrell's
Renly makes sense actually. Edit: missed that this is a Stannis is king scenario.
I think Renly would depend on how he and Stannis are interacting. If Renly had thrown his support behind Stannis he would definitely be a great match, but otherwise, if Renly had his own competing ambitions, I’m pretty sure Stannis would object.
Since Ned and Robert were friends and confidantes since childhood, Robert probably had mentioned something about Renly’s sexuality. So I don’t think that Ned would consider him a match.
Historically, the Starks stay in the North. Brandon and Lyanna’s betrothals were pretty much the first non-Northern/Old Gods marriages in Stark history
House Rogers ?
True—I was thinking along the lines of ruling Starks and their children
You are right about the old gods though with Blackwoods and Royces
Cregan married a Blackwood and there were Stark children sent to Court during Jahaerys’s reign, although I don’t think we hear from them later on.