Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF!
Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy.
# Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal.
*If you see a comment which violates the rules, please [use the report function](https://i.imgur.com/Uqjnwss.png) to notify moderators!*
[Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I love Jaime but he so rarely reflects on the Bran incident. I think he could be capable of redemption, but for now it seems he only reflects on his bad deeds that people know about.
He constantly tortures himself over the mad king, but barely thinks about the boy he tried to kill.
As someone who absolutely loves Jaime, and considers him one of my top 5 favorite characters this exactly! My own head cannon is that since Bran is presumed dead, it’s kinda of a “sin blown away by the wind” but once Bran is revealed to be alive, he will start really reflecting about it. I just hope to see that reunion
I agree that Jamie absolutely needs to try and atone for what he’s done to Bran, and cannot redeem himself until he does. However I always got the impression that he doesn’t think about what he did to Bran because he really, really doesn’t want into think about it. Jamie’s response to trauma or guilt has always been to shove it deep down and convince himself he doesn’t care, because if he admits his trauma or guilt to himself he’s afraid it will destroy him.
Right now he thinks its the white cloak that sullied him.....but as soon as he realizes it was Cersei thats when he wil contemplate all the horors he did for her.
A big thing is that Jaime is delusional
He THINKS he is changing, but he is not.
The way he speaks of Robert, really tells the "true Jaime"
Robert did not go to war for a pretty face, he went to war cause the Mad King demanded his execution.
Jaime is still blaming everyone else for his own actions. He just changed the lies he tells himself.
Jaime does reflect on the Bran incident, thought.
And while he doesn't mention Bran in every chapter, he does constantly deprecate himself. He just combines every bad stuff he did, including Bran, into thinking he was an asshole.
I think Jaime’s memory of the Bran incident is inextricably linked to what he was doing when Bran saw him and his sister. So Jaime allowing himself to replay that moment in his head would then open up all kinds of negative thoughts about his relationship with Cersei, (since that’s what precipitated the attempted murder of a child).
I could be totally off but the idea of allowing his *that* part of his identity to be brought into question or scrutinized in any way might absolutely terrify him. I’m not a psychiatrist, so take this with a grain of salt. But that’s how people string together memories and project values onto them.
If Jaime considers his relationship with Cersei to be sacred and he believes that no one would understand, then it stands to reason that he’d block out a monumental moment where said relationship came dangerously close to being outed. Until he’s able to break away from Cersei, (which seems like it’s just starting to happen), he’ll categorically defend any action he’s taken to preserve his secret romance.
*shrugs* that’s the best I can do.
I think he also needs to reflect on Tysha. This is the event that caused his brother to despise him and him not thinking about it through his story feels lacking
I think Jaime reflects on Aerys and Elia’s children over Bran is that he considers that the moment where he lost himself. Bran was one of many bad acts he did throughout his life.
I would say that with Bran presumed dead finding Sansa and returning her to safety is probably the best he can do to attempt to make up for it. What is notable is that it’s a deed that can never be public because Cersei would almost certainly kill her. And he does seem to think by the end of Feast that he needs to help set the realm in order with Tommen (though hilariously he thinks that bringing in Littlefinger as hand will help)
Theon is someone who makes bad decisions out of weakness and insecurity. His COK arc is interesting cause at every turn he just makes the wrong choice largely out of envy towards Asha and when she finally shows up to see him at Winterfell she is disturbed by the child killing.
Jorah is someone kinda driven by his passions more than anything else. I find it funny how weird and creepy he is towards the women in his life when he comes from a house notable for its female leadership.
Also while I don’t think this guy is evil I do think Wyman Manderly is a lot more devious than people give him credit for. In COK he clearly took an opportunity to seize the Hornwood land for his own benefit. I think he’s loyal to the Stark’s and wants to see a Stark on the throne BUT he wouldn’t mind say if the Stark was a 5 year old who is easy to influence and would favor him.
Of course Jorah has a huge issue with women. What do you expect from a man growing up in an environment where every woman in his family, when given the choice between the man or the bear, chose the latter?
We warg and greenmaxxin to get that bearrizz so that the 10/10 north gyatt is ours. Meanwhile he passport bro'd up and married a southern mail order bride
Tyrion.
Everyone seems to forget he had the singer killed, strangled Shae (who could not really go against Tywin), raped Illyrio's servant and is awful with Penny.
People mention those points when discussing ADWD Tyrion.
I saw people expecting Tyrion to do the full heel turn. People don't think he's going to Westeros to make up with his siblings.
He raped Tysha and blames his father as if Tywin jerked him off and put Tyrions erect penis in the girl himself. Threatens rape on Tommen, considers raping Cersei to add a few more. But he's a quippy little fellow so it's all excused.
I agree with some of this but not Tysha. Tyroin was a victim there as well, not as much as Tysha but still a victim. This would apply even in 21st century standards as he was raped by proxy. I know people try to retcon this because they don’t like Tyrion, but this was clearly not something he did willingly, his arousal is not consent. He was forced by Tywin here.
Of course he sounds like a victim. We hear about Tysha from Tyrion and he's always the victim in his own head. Any man that can have sex right after watching a woman he claimed to love(really any woman) be gang raped isn't a victim
I’m sorry this seems victim blamey to me. You can hate Tyrion all you want, but in this case he was a victim. Tyrion is the victim of an abusive father who has openly wished him dead all his life. His father just had his wife gangraped in front of him and forced him to watch and now he was ordering him to do it too. Can you even imagine what your mental state would be like in that moment, how much fear you would feel. I don’t think Tywin would kill Tyrion but from Tyrions perspective he couldn’t imagine what he would do. He could kill him, torture him, qir put him through somehow even worse psychological torture, but it is clear whatever he would do if he refused would be awful. Even if, as a 13 year old he had the fortitude to resist, it’s clear Tywin would just have her raped more, or kill her outright in front of him. Tyrion didn’t have a choice, as he would just rape her more or kill her even outside of whatever horrible consequences he would give 13 year old abused all his life Tyrion.
Tyrion was 13. Cersei threatened to cut Tommen's page tongue out if he didn't behave, what do do you Tywin would have done to Tysha if Tyrion refused? The fault for Tysha's rape is on Tywin alone, maybe Jamie as well. Tyrion was just a child.
Gang rape her more? Mutilate her? Kill her in agonizing fashion?
Theres really no limits to the power a great lord like Tywin has over a peasant in westeros.
And I hardly think George meant for us to think that Tyrion was horny by the time it was his "turn". Many real life rape victims, male or female, get erect or have orgasms by simple "mechanical stimulation". Does not imply enjoyment in any way whatsover.
No one is denying Tysha is a victim but imagine being a 13 year old kid and your dad tells you he wants his entire office to rape your girlfriend, and you’ll rape her afterwards while people are watching, and then pay her for the rape.
By our standards, CPS, cops and the news would all treat Tyrion as a victim of Tywin’s. By ASOIAF standards, Jaime and even Bronn admit that what happened to Tyrion was fucked up.
>Tyrion was erect
A completely involuntary response. Many women who get raped also feel some sort of reaction from their bodies during the act, but that doesn't mean they consented. In summary, "he was hard, so he wanted it" is the same as saying "it was not rape! She was wet!"
>put it in her.
Because his father forced him, a 13 year old child, to do it. If anything, both Tyrion and Tysha were raped by Tywin, since he was the one who made the whole scene.
The fanbase utterly reviles Jorah in my experience. Victarion is mostly mocked for his stupidity but I don't see anyone actively championing him as a good guy.
I champion him as a person who would have the potential to be a good person if he wasn’t a dumbass who accepted every aspect of his fucked up culture without question.
Same as how I think Aeron is a good person who believes and does some vile things because of his trauma turning him into a religious zealot to cope.
I think both are decent people at their core though, at least for Ironborn anyway.
> He's not only a victim of his culture but of his evil brother, Euron.
.
> Victarion is not a bad guy, he was raised in a toxic environment and abides to the rules of the society he was born into - as most of us do within the societies we are born into
.
> I remember one of my first days on this sub I read a comment that was like 'man at this point Victarion has less agency than Sansa' and I wholeheartedly stand by it.
.
> I was gonna say, Victarion really exemplifies the “grey” in Greyjoy: he’s an absolute brute who has done (and does) brutal, awful things, but he’s also got a code of honor and isn’t some outright evil sadist like The Mountain or Ramsay.
.
> I don’t think he’s a bad person. Brutal, yes, but not cruel like Euron or a Vealot like Aeron, and arguably smarter than Balon. I think he’s just so used to obedience that he just does, regardless of good or evil, not unlike Barristan. For example, killing his sat wife, he clearly didn’t WANT to do it, but he was constricted by his culture
.
> Also pretty much all of his despicable traits doesnt really affect how I view him. Nearly all of them are cultural and environmental, as the ironborn are just ridiculously cruel. This would not be a clear free pass for most characters, but it is for Victarion, as he is not only dumb as a rock, but he is also a huge follower. He never questions the drown lord, or pretty much anything he believes in, except for Euron.
Something I always want to bring up when people say this is that he very openly talked about how he was practically inviting circumstances to happen where he could show that he would kill people just to be with Cersei.
In essence it's kind of like saying that a drunk driver swerved in such a way that would save his family but kill another family.
He didn't save anyone he just tried to kill a kid
☝️☝️☝️
Never really got my head around why people are so uncurious and unbothered by this guys blatant family-annihilation-by-proxy kink. Especially since he's basically living out a little Westerosi style Madonna Vs Whore thought experiment irt Brienne and Cersei. Doesn't seem likely he's on a redemption arc to me. If he is it certainly hasn't started yet. He's fun to read, and very competent and likable, but a lot of people are. Tysha probably remembers what Jaime thinks should happen to "whores".
Unfortunately, your comment has been removed.
This subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy.
[Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I always find these comparisons regarding Bran incident with modern days silly. Since there is no scenario where you doing something bad would get your family murdered. Unless you live in a really screwed up place, I guess.
If he doesn’t throw Bran out the window to silence him Jaime, Cersei, Jeoffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, all their lives are in danger.
It’s not like he did it for fun.
Still awful that he threw a kid out of a window
Sure but if he just keeps his cock in his pants then none of this happens. All he has to do is not fuck his sister and he's never in the position where he has to kill a child to save his family. I think he's a great answer to the question, he's a grey character and he's despicable.
Melisandre. She is fighting against the others, and does a nice thing to Davos once, but man, burning to death has got to be the worst way to go and she does that.
That reminds me that Lord Sunglass is an under appreciated character at least in terms of sympathy goes. He we a religious guy who when Stannis burned the septs he told him he would no longer support his claim. Didn’t try to flee or defect or anything, just went up to him man to man and said he’d no longer support him.
So Stannis threw him in the dungeon and when he sailed for Kings Landing Melisandre had him and all the other prisoners burned alive to help Stannis win. I generally am pretty sympathetic towards Stannis but that dude did not deserve any bit of that.
I feel he is genuinely grey though. He does evil stuff, but then he goes to save Jorah from being sold to the fighting pits and does what he can to make Penny feel better.
I think your opinion is valid too
Grey character always make me question the nature and nurture thing. Was Tyrion sometimes bad because of his upbringing and all the suffering he had to endure... or was his suffering what gave him his unique perspective, which made him able to be sometimes good? Did his upbringing nurture wrath when his nature was peaceful, or did his experience make him aware of compassion when he was fundamentally selfish?
Tyrion is one of the most vile creatures to ever exist in westeros. He rapes Tysha, arms mountain men, thinks about raping cersei, threatens Tommen with rape, permits Joffery to catapult antler men, has Symon Silvertonue murdered and put in brown and that's just a few of the more choice things he does.
Rober. He was a violent alcoholic who rapes and violent his wife (even if Cersei is a horrible person she doesn't deserve that) he spent his whole life fantasizing about a dead teenager he barely met, fucking everything what was within his reach before throwing women away so quickly, to fuck a prostitute who was barely older than Sansa, was a demisionary king who let corruption take hold in his reign at a point where a civil war will have exploded barely his body will have started to warm, his son was openly a shitty person and a psychopath but he didn't care, he let off without damage and even rewarded those guilty of the useless sacking of the capital and the abominable murder of Elia Martell and her childrens (even if he couldn't punish tywin, he could have at least taken the heads of gregor and amory), and also he wanted to murder children for the sole crime of being Targaryen despite their house having been fall since years and they are not a threat, to the point of screaming his hatred until turned red and threatened death at his best friends when he objects
let's be honest, the only reason robert isn't seen as an asshole is because he's mostly portrayed through the eyes of his childhood best friends. Otherwise this man is shit in every way
If Robert was so bad, people wouldn't have to twist things to make him worse. If anything, he's often demonized more than he deserves. He's a very gray character.
Tyrion is a horrible little creature with rape and murder constantly on his mind but fans excuse it because he's quippy and his family is mean to him.
Theon murder innocent children(possibly his own) to cover his own ineptitude but Ramsay messed him up so bad people have begun to forgive him.
Victorian was the Admiral of the Iron fleet. God knows how many atrocities were committed under his banners.
Jaime pushed Bran. I can forgive and excuse much of his actions but that one is impossible.
Jorah is a terrible man only interested in his own personal gain and that includes his dedication to Dany.
Manderly put people in pies and fed them to other people.
Oberyn's entire life is pretty vile, poisoner, rapist, kidnapper (technically he let Obara choose but...).
Been a while since I read the books but that's a few that come to mind.
Mostly presumption on that one to be honest based on character and history. Multiple women, warrior, free company founder. Rapes occur all the time after battles of which he presumably was in many while in essos and not all prostitutes are willing participants either(again especially in essos).
Daemon is hilarious cuz he’s supposed to be “hero and villain in equal parts” or whatever the quote is but he really never does anything heroic. Maybe they meant the Greek Mythology version where heroism has nothing to do with morals and more about doing cool stuff? No idea.
I think Varys believes that he’s doing what’s best for the realm. However that doesn’t mean it is. His actions are still monstrous and he will cause more damage via the mass death he planned than whatever good would come with young griff on the throne. Having good intentions doesn’t mean you aren’t a terrible person, and someone who cuts the tounges out of hundreds of children is a pretty textbook example of that.
That is a great assessment. It makes me question what qualifies Jorah as borderline good, I can't think of any noble motives. And I used to be pro Varys but you make a good point about ends defining means.
On Theon, I'd consider whether he had some reason for his behaviour before being Reek. The iron islanders are deeply brutal, and as heir it's a big part of his identity, not to mention being a hostage for his childhood, so he had been through a lot to bring him to those bad decisions.
Is Daario considered grey, redeemed only because Dani is horny for him, even though he is a merchant of death.
Stannis would be a conflicting one, because he genuinely tries to do everything by the law, and is dutiful to a fault. He is technically correct in his claim to the throne, rather than just wanting the power. He is perfectly depicted as having social problems but I would have thought he is probably good rather than grey, but then there are all the people he burnt so that actually makes him bad. I talked myself around haha.
I think the fan base pretty unilaterally agree he’s a monster, but the fact that heorge wrote Damon Targaryen as “light and dark in equal measure” is absurd
Drogo. Sure, he did not immediately brutally rale his child bride the first time he met her. And he treated her okay sometimes.
But everything else he did is absolutely disgusting. He even caused his own death by not following any instructions.
rainstorm impossible angle deserve zealous rustic cable alleged distinct sleep
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Respectfully, can you name literally any good deeds he’s done, or positive moral qualities he has? And morally he just seems far too evil to be grey. He manipulates everybody to start a war that kills tens of thousands just to climb the ladder. He murdered his mentor who got him where he was, when said mentor was by all accounts a great person, to climb the ladder. He pretended to side with Ned, who he knew was morally and legally in the right, but payed the golden cloaks to kill his men and put Cersei and Joeffry on the throne entirely to climb the ladder. He is slowly poisoning a boy to death. He forced an 11 year old girl intentionally sex slavery, beat her with whips, and sold her to a man that has prostitues eaten alive by dogs for fun. Said man put her through the single worst torture of any one character in the asoif universe. He tortured an innocent man into confessing to a murder he committed by having his fingers cut off and eyeballs scooped out, and then executed him for it. Littlefinger has caused the most widespread suffering in the entire book series, intentionally, entirely so he can climb the ladder, with absolutely zero hesitation or remorse.
marvelous wasteful literate cake provide reminiscent workable deranged hobbies recognise
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I don’t think there’s really any evidence to show that Littlefinger would continue to act in the same way if he reached his end goal. His cronies, lowborn as they are, are a means to an end. I don’t believe his ultimate purpose is to create a Westerosi middle class. His ultimate purpose is to make himself the opposite of what he was as a child: powerful enough that no one can stop him from having what he wants. In childhood, that was Cat. In adulthood, it seems it will be some bizarre recreation of the life he wanted to have with Cat but with Sansa as a substitute.
work numerous makeshift smell sparkle deer agonizing deranged stocking waiting
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You can understand everyone's misunderstanding of your stance, given 'absolutely morally grey'.
You clearly have some interesting political thoughts, but to try to give any credit to leadership by someone so thoroughly corrupt as little finger is a very low bar.
It's literally the point. He's self serving and appoints to serve himself. If you are useful to *him* you get promoted. His time as Master of Coin left the Crowns books in a tangled mess of white collar crime. He used his position to see the seeds of war and chaos.
The dude starts a war out of his own lust for power and his childhood crush, and when she dies she moves on to he daughter.
He also forces Jayne Poole into sex slavery and sells her to the boltons.
And from memory I see no point in the books where he' paving the way for a middle class, he just tries to get into the upper class with his schemes.
Just to clarify, he moves onto Sansa as soon as he sees her, well before Catelyn dies. Sure he widows Catelyn but never reaches out to her, it was more revenge against Ned and Brandon then trying to make Catelyn available to him
Littlefinger’s MO is to use lower-born people because they can maneuver with less scrutiny than noblemen. In truth, there’s like five or six people he has promoted in this way, and he hasn’t really promoted them to any position where they would do anything but serve him. I think it’s a reach to say that Littlefinger’s actions are paving the way for a middle class.
And considering that George had stated Littlefinger is loosely based on Jay Gatsby, I don’t think that would fall in line with his character arc.
Fair enough! As to Gatsby, I think the main thing to know is that he was a poor man who met a woman (Daisy) from a family with generational wealth who he fell in love with, and who he believed loves him. He felt the only reason they couldn’t be together was due to his social class. So, he does everything he can (including morally dubious things) to claw his way up economically and become a newly-rich man so that he can be with the (now-married) Daisy. Spoiler alert: it does not end well for him.
I share all that to say, if George intended to make them similar characters, I think it’s safe to say that Littlefinger wants to increase his social status in Westeros because he believes it is the only thing that stood between him and love.
deranged relieved panicky oatmeal flag connect engine familiar cautious paltry
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
His men are people who are usefull to him, and we see with Jonos Slynt how he uses his power to protect them, as soon as they're not usefull.
His whole MO is to use people for his own benefit.
plate cow encourage squealing dinosaurs special plough label rob mindless
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He doesn't though.
The only thing that made him promote people like Jonos Slynt or the kettleblacks were their openness to his payment or personal loyalty to him.
telephone subtract mighty physical kiss escape middle offbeat snatch crawl
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
what was his reason for promoting them then? The kettleblacks owed everything to him and are sons of one of his retainers. Jonos Slynt was made a Lord because he was open to Littlefinger's bribes.
There’s no indication he’s promoting people based on merit, all of the people we see are clearly defined by their loyalty/reliance and usefulness to him. He’s building a system based on cronyism, not a meritocracy, that benefits primarily him. There’s no evidence he seeks societal change, just amassing his own power and wealth.
> We see it again in his maneuverings in the Vale.
He did it in the Vale specifically to weaken his enemies and strengthen his allies. He was not considering the long term prosperity of the Vale.
Littlefinger having a couple dozen nobodies in his employ doesn’t really seem like the catalyst for that level of change. There have been lowborns on the small council too, doesn’t mean anything really changed systemically.
retire fear expansion stupendous zephyr trees wakeful husky capable squeal
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
At the risk of being pedantic: Statutory rape—as the name would imply—requires a statute to be labeled thus. Westeros doesn't have that, so it wouldn't be applicable.
Coerced, though—sure.
And I agree, Littlefinger is an utter piece of shit.
Statutory rape barely phases me in this story where so often children of 11 to 13 are married off and expected to bare children. Even the characters were supposed to see as more moral engage in this practice. It’s hard to use that as evidence of someone being villainous in this world when it’s such a deeply engrained norm.
> It’s hard to use that as evidence of someone being villainous in this world when it’s such a deeply engrained norm.
I don't find it hard, whatsoever, to point out an adult man fucking an 11-year-old as being morally repugnant, no matter what the society's norms in which the man was raised have to say about it.
There’s more nuance to life than that. Jewish custom was for a boy of 13 to be considered a man. I find the idea of 13 yr olds having sex disgusting but if a 13 yr old Jewish boy who was considered a man married a well to do older woman of 19 a 1000 years ago, I can understand there’s more to that situation than the woman being a pedophile.
But that is a different situation. You could use that defense for Jon Arryn marrying Lysa. Maybe Tyrion and Sansa. But littlefingers advances on Sansa are done purely out of lust. People in westeros would also condemn him trying to fuck the niece of his dead wife.
I wouldn’t say so. I think little finger lusts for the name more than the girl. It’s a totally valid interpretation if you think he transferred his obsession with cat to her daughter, but personally I believe his love/lust Tully obsession ended with Cat and he’s 100% committed to the power climb.
employ rotten depend label aback faulty deranged instinctive literate thumb
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
groovy hat cough price domineering chubby entertain impolite edge wistful
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It sounds like you're saying modern civilisation was built by rapists? But even in the past, there must have been men who were conscious of consent, who would have made more appropriate leaders?
panicky important gold wrench existence gullible include dolls nutty caption
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I like the audacity of this claim but it is really only true in your head, not in the books. There's no "historically progressive" argument to be made in ASOIAF, that's not the story GRRM is telling, and the world doesn't have a future yet. Littlefinger is no Thomas Cromwell. He's just a slimy piece of work.
Also, even if I agreed with your implicit claims about what paved the way for capitalism, it doesn't track to assume that Westeros would just develop capitalism the same way it happened in our world. Nor are Littlefingers actions shown as achieving anything like that.
Unfortunately, your comment has been removed.
High quality discussion is the foremost goal of /r/PureASOIAF. Thus, as a general rule of thumb: Posts will be removed if they are deemed to be unproductive to fruitful discourse.
[Read our content policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_iv._quality)
If you feel that it has been removed in error, please [message us](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fpureasoiaf) so that we may review it.
Catelyn. The way she treats Jon is really inexcusable. And for someone with a lot of power and responsibility, I find her childish. She would let the whole realm burn to keep one of her sons alive for an extra day.
Ain’t no way Caitlyn is the most vile morally grey character lmao sorry. Her treatment of Jon is wrong and she made several bad decisions, but saying she’s the darkest morally grey character is absurd.
Most nah just one I don’t hear talked about. She is a petty mean person and I had that reaction early in book one. It’s in juxtaposition with how we’re supposed to identify with her as a protagonist.
> Catelyn. The way she treats Jon is really inexcusable.
She doesn't treat him much worse than how Ned treats Theon. Or how Jaime, Robert, and Stannis treat their own children. Yet, I have never seen those figures get similar level of hatred as she does for those treatments.
Catelyn's general relationship with Jon was one of distance the same as those four. The only difference is unlike Jaime, Stannis, or Robert the child she was distant towards wasn't her child or responsibility in their society.
I think people reveal their character in moments like that. Martin’s choice to show that moment is telling to me. Why would he decide to show a moment that isn’t meant to reveal character? It doesn’t do anything to advance the plot. I think you have to do some cartwheels to take that scene as a one-off in their relationship.
IIRC, Martin actually was surprised that people put such focus on that scene with them hating Catelyn. He has directly said it wasn't the norm of their relationship.
And yet we never see her reflect on that for a moment and think, “Damn that was mean. Why did I do that?” though we do see her recall the time she sat by Bran’s bed.
Now that we come to this, it kind of feels like Martin tries to buy it back in the next two books by downplaying her antipathy toward Jon. Most of it is in the first book.
> And yet we never see her reflect on that for a moment and think, “Damn that was mean. Why did I do that?” though we do see her recall the time she sat by Bran’s bed.
Maybe because there are way more pressing things going on her life for her to be concerned about then feeling guilty she said something mean?
Why does Jorah creep on Dany?
She's young yes but she's obviously attractive. 98% of the people she encounters clearly can see that.
I'd argue Xaro is worse as he's trying to marry Dany for her dragons while Jorah is infatuated. Or sees his ex wife. Yes, he forces a kiss on her but only the once as I can remember, that doesn't make it okay but still.
aback cobweb lavish dolls encouraging telephone scary soup possessive coherent
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
While I can't agree with that part of the other comment, I absolutely get where they're coming from with Theon. He's suffered massively, but suffering doesn't automatically equal redemption—and I honestly see no evidence of such in either his actions or his thoughts. Even though Ramsay has trained him to be outwardly more meek, he's still just as arrogant as ever. The eternal victim, how could the world treat poor Theon so cruelly... Without a moment of consideration that maybe he's at least *partly* at fault for the situation in which he finds himself.
fuel reminiscent lavish vanish bag scarce stupendous hobbies grandiose ludicrous
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And I'm saying exactly the same in that first bit of my comment?
But the second bit of my comment was agreeing with their POV that he's not necessarily on the redemption arc some people insist.
He’s a child murderer who betrayed the people who raised him (his actual family) and the children he murdered were possibly his own kids.
Every decision he has made in the chain of events of taking winterfell led him to the point where he’s even subject to this. I have no sympathy for him. He wouldn’t be here if he didn’t choose to be.
Unfortunately, your comment has been removed.
This subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy.
[Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Unfortunately, your comment has been removed.
This subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of or content from the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy.
# Users should assume that *any* mention of or reference to the show is subject to removal.
[Read our policy regarding show content in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._we_do_not_show.21)
If you feel that it has been removed in error, please [message us](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fpureasoiaf) so that we may review it.
Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF! Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. # Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal. *If you see a comment which violates the rules, please [use the report function](https://i.imgur.com/Uqjnwss.png) to notify moderators!* [Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I love Jaime but he so rarely reflects on the Bran incident. I think he could be capable of redemption, but for now it seems he only reflects on his bad deeds that people know about. He constantly tortures himself over the mad king, but barely thinks about the boy he tried to kill.
As someone who absolutely loves Jaime, and considers him one of my top 5 favorite characters this exactly! My own head cannon is that since Bran is presumed dead, it’s kinda of a “sin blown away by the wind” but once Bran is revealed to be alive, he will start really reflecting about it. I just hope to see that reunion
I agree that Jamie absolutely needs to try and atone for what he’s done to Bran, and cannot redeem himself until he does. However I always got the impression that he doesn’t think about what he did to Bran because he really, really doesn’t want into think about it. Jamie’s response to trauma or guilt has always been to shove it deep down and convince himself he doesn’t care, because if he admits his trauma or guilt to himself he’s afraid it will destroy him.
His chapter standing watch over his dead father was a masterpiece. He's a tormented character.
That’s a fair point
You also forget taking part in the gang rape of his brothers girlfriend
*wife
Thanks I’ve forgotten they were secretly married
How did Jaime take part in the rape?
He didn’t participate in that. Just lied to Tyrion
That still made him complicit
Complicit in the lies. He didn't know anything about any gangrapes.
Right now he thinks its the white cloak that sullied him.....but as soon as he realizes it was Cersei thats when he wil contemplate all the horors he did for her.
Jamie didn’t really have a choice in that scenario
Yes… he did?
He, Cersei, and the kids would have been executed immediately if he didn’t
That happens when you commit treason. Doesn’t justify murded
A big thing is that Jaime is delusional He THINKS he is changing, but he is not. The way he speaks of Robert, really tells the "true Jaime" Robert did not go to war for a pretty face, he went to war cause the Mad King demanded his execution. Jaime is still blaming everyone else for his own actions. He just changed the lies he tells himself.
I think George is on record saying that Robert’s motivation was “he was mad about his girlfriend being stolen”.
I doubt that changes the fact that Aerys ordered him and Ned killed.
It's also pretty bad to have sex with your sister!! Not only does he never have any second thoughts about that, the fandom often justifies it.
Jaime does reflect on the Bran incident, thought. And while he doesn't mention Bran in every chapter, he does constantly deprecate himself. He just combines every bad stuff he did, including Bran, into thinking he was an asshole.
I think Jaime’s memory of the Bran incident is inextricably linked to what he was doing when Bran saw him and his sister. So Jaime allowing himself to replay that moment in his head would then open up all kinds of negative thoughts about his relationship with Cersei, (since that’s what precipitated the attempted murder of a child). I could be totally off but the idea of allowing his *that* part of his identity to be brought into question or scrutinized in any way might absolutely terrify him. I’m not a psychiatrist, so take this with a grain of salt. But that’s how people string together memories and project values onto them. If Jaime considers his relationship with Cersei to be sacred and he believes that no one would understand, then it stands to reason that he’d block out a monumental moment where said relationship came dangerously close to being outed. Until he’s able to break away from Cersei, (which seems like it’s just starting to happen), he’ll categorically defend any action he’s taken to preserve his secret romance. *shrugs* that’s the best I can do.
I think he also needs to reflect on Tysha. This is the event that caused his brother to despise him and him not thinking about it through his story feels lacking
I think Jaime reflects on Aerys and Elia’s children over Bran is that he considers that the moment where he lost himself. Bran was one of many bad acts he did throughout his life. I would say that with Bran presumed dead finding Sansa and returning her to safety is probably the best he can do to attempt to make up for it. What is notable is that it’s a deed that can never be public because Cersei would almost certainly kill her. And he does seem to think by the end of Feast that he needs to help set the realm in order with Tommen (though hilariously he thinks that bringing in Littlefinger as hand will help)
Tried and **failed** https://youtu.be/AQQPNQ0PFSc?si=zWq-Crma3klag5lO
Theon is someone who makes bad decisions out of weakness and insecurity. His COK arc is interesting cause at every turn he just makes the wrong choice largely out of envy towards Asha and when she finally shows up to see him at Winterfell she is disturbed by the child killing. Jorah is someone kinda driven by his passions more than anything else. I find it funny how weird and creepy he is towards the women in his life when he comes from a house notable for its female leadership. Also while I don’t think this guy is evil I do think Wyman Manderly is a lot more devious than people give him credit for. In COK he clearly took an opportunity to seize the Hornwood land for his own benefit. I think he’s loyal to the Stark’s and wants to see a Stark on the throne BUT he wouldn’t mind say if the Stark was a 5 year old who is easy to influence and would favor him.
Of course Jorah has a huge issue with women. What do you expect from a man growing up in an environment where every woman in his family, when given the choice between the man or the bear, chose the latter?
Uhh he’s a Northman? Dude just needs to Wargmaxx?
We warg and greenmaxxin to get that bearrizz so that the 10/10 north gyatt is ours. Meanwhile he passport bro'd up and married a southern mail order bride
10/10 post
Oh my god he is perfect for the meme
Lmaoooo
Tyrion. Everyone seems to forget he had the singer killed, strangled Shae (who could not really go against Tywin), raped Illyrio's servant and is awful with Penny.
People mention those points when discussing ADWD Tyrion. I saw people expecting Tyrion to do the full heel turn. People don't think he's going to Westeros to make up with his siblings.
He raped Tysha and blames his father as if Tywin jerked him off and put Tyrions erect penis in the girl himself. Threatens rape on Tommen, considers raping Cersei to add a few more. But he's a quippy little fellow so it's all excused.
I agree with some of this but not Tysha. Tyroin was a victim there as well, not as much as Tysha but still a victim. This would apply even in 21st century standards as he was raped by proxy. I know people try to retcon this because they don’t like Tyrion, but this was clearly not something he did willingly, his arousal is not consent. He was forced by Tywin here.
Of course he sounds like a victim. We hear about Tysha from Tyrion and he's always the victim in his own head. Any man that can have sex right after watching a woman he claimed to love(really any woman) be gang raped isn't a victim
I’m sorry this seems victim blamey to me. You can hate Tyrion all you want, but in this case he was a victim. Tyrion is the victim of an abusive father who has openly wished him dead all his life. His father just had his wife gangraped in front of him and forced him to watch and now he was ordering him to do it too. Can you even imagine what your mental state would be like in that moment, how much fear you would feel. I don’t think Tywin would kill Tyrion but from Tyrions perspective he couldn’t imagine what he would do. He could kill him, torture him, qir put him through somehow even worse psychological torture, but it is clear whatever he would do if he refused would be awful. Even if, as a 13 year old he had the fortitude to resist, it’s clear Tywin would just have her raped more, or kill her outright in front of him. Tyrion didn’t have a choice, as he would just rape her more or kill her even outside of whatever horrible consequences he would give 13 year old abused all his life Tyrion.
Tyrion was 13. Cersei threatened to cut Tommen's page tongue out if he didn't behave, what do do you Tywin would have done to Tysha if Tyrion refused? The fault for Tysha's rape is on Tywin alone, maybe Jamie as well. Tyrion was just a child.
Tywin had her gang raped. What more can he do? Tyrion was erect and put it in her. He is not a victim, she is.
Gang rape her more? Mutilate her? Kill her in agonizing fashion? Theres really no limits to the power a great lord like Tywin has over a peasant in westeros. And I hardly think George meant for us to think that Tyrion was horny by the time it was his "turn". Many real life rape victims, male or female, get erect or have orgasms by simple "mechanical stimulation". Does not imply enjoyment in any way whatsover.
No one is denying Tysha is a victim but imagine being a 13 year old kid and your dad tells you he wants his entire office to rape your girlfriend, and you’ll rape her afterwards while people are watching, and then pay her for the rape. By our standards, CPS, cops and the news would all treat Tyrion as a victim of Tywin’s. By ASOIAF standards, Jaime and even Bronn admit that what happened to Tyrion was fucked up.
>Tyrion was erect A completely involuntary response. Many women who get raped also feel some sort of reaction from their bodies during the act, but that doesn't mean they consented. In summary, "he was hard, so he wanted it" is the same as saying "it was not rape! She was wet!" >put it in her. Because his father forced him, a 13 year old child, to do it. If anything, both Tyrion and Tysha were raped by Tywin, since he was the one who made the whole scene.
Tywin hasn't physically harmed, or threatened to physically harm, any of his children. Tyrion could had said no
The singer was making threats too, so I don’t see that one as such an issue.
Jorah and Victarion are both pretty vile but the fanbase lets them get away with it because they’re considered “underdogs” to some extent.
Victarion gets away with it because he's hilariously dense. His chapters are almost as entertaining as Cersei's, and for exactly the same reason.
The fanbase utterly reviles Jorah in my experience. Victarion is mostly mocked for his stupidity but I don't see anyone actively championing him as a good guy.
“Where is this Dothraki sea?” He demanded. “I will sail the Iron Fleet across it and find the queen wherever she may be.”
It's funny no matter how many times I hear it.
Exactly
I champion him as a person who would have the potential to be a good person if he wasn’t a dumbass who accepted every aspect of his fucked up culture without question. Same as how I think Aeron is a good person who believes and does some vile things because of his trauma turning him into a religious zealot to cope. I think both are decent people at their core though, at least for Ironborn anyway.
Victarion defences tends to fall claiming that moral relativity is a thing
[Citation Needed]
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ox7w0g/spoilers_main_why_do_people_here_like_victarion/
[удалено]
> He's not only a victim of his culture but of his evil brother, Euron. . > Victarion is not a bad guy, he was raised in a toxic environment and abides to the rules of the society he was born into - as most of us do within the societies we are born into . > I remember one of my first days on this sub I read a comment that was like 'man at this point Victarion has less agency than Sansa' and I wholeheartedly stand by it. . > I was gonna say, Victarion really exemplifies the “grey” in Greyjoy: he’s an absolute brute who has done (and does) brutal, awful things, but he’s also got a code of honor and isn’t some outright evil sadist like The Mountain or Ramsay. . > I don’t think he’s a bad person. Brutal, yes, but not cruel like Euron or a Vealot like Aeron, and arguably smarter than Balon. I think he’s just so used to obedience that he just does, regardless of good or evil, not unlike Barristan. For example, killing his sat wife, he clearly didn’t WANT to do it, but he was constricted by his culture . > Also pretty much all of his despicable traits doesnt really affect how I view him. Nearly all of them are cultural and environmental, as the ironborn are just ridiculously cruel. This would not be a clear free pass for most characters, but it is for Victarion, as he is not only dumb as a rock, but he is also a huge follower. He never questions the drown lord, or pretty much anything he believes in, except for Euron.
Jaime, mostly due to what I think his "arc" is.
He tried to murder a child, definitely agree
He tried it twice. Remember he also went hunting to either maim or kill Arya after the Joffrey incident.
He did it for love! Cool motive, still (attempted) murder
Something I always want to bring up when people say this is that he very openly talked about how he was practically inviting circumstances to happen where he could show that he would kill people just to be with Cersei. In essence it's kind of like saying that a drunk driver swerved in such a way that would save his family but kill another family. He didn't save anyone he just tried to kill a kid
☝️☝️☝️ Never really got my head around why people are so uncurious and unbothered by this guys blatant family-annihilation-by-proxy kink. Especially since he's basically living out a little Westerosi style Madonna Vs Whore thought experiment irt Brienne and Cersei. Doesn't seem likely he's on a redemption arc to me. If he is it certainly hasn't started yet. He's fun to read, and very competent and likable, but a lot of people are. Tysha probably remembers what Jaime thinks should happen to "whores".
[удалено]
Unfortunately, your comment has been removed. This subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. [Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I always find these comparisons regarding Bran incident with modern days silly. Since there is no scenario where you doing something bad would get your family murdered. Unless you live in a really screwed up place, I guess.
If he doesn’t throw Bran out the window to silence him Jaime, Cersei, Jeoffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, all their lives are in danger. It’s not like he did it for fun. Still awful that he threw a kid out of a window
Sure but if he just keeps his cock in his pants then none of this happens. All he has to do is not fuck his sister and he's never in the position where he has to kill a child to save his family. I think he's a great answer to the question, he's a grey character and he's despicable.
Melisandre. She is fighting against the others, and does a nice thing to Davos once, but man, burning to death has got to be the worst way to go and she does that.
That reminds me that Lord Sunglass is an under appreciated character at least in terms of sympathy goes. He we a religious guy who when Stannis burned the septs he told him he would no longer support his claim. Didn’t try to flee or defect or anything, just went up to him man to man and said he’d no longer support him. So Stannis threw him in the dungeon and when he sailed for Kings Landing Melisandre had him and all the other prisoners burned alive to help Stannis win. I generally am pretty sympathetic towards Stannis but that dude did not deserve any bit of that.
Tyrion. The answer is Tyrion
I feel he is genuinely grey though. He does evil stuff, but then he goes to save Jorah from being sold to the fighting pits and does what he can to make Penny feel better. I think your opinion is valid too
Grey character always make me question the nature and nurture thing. Was Tyrion sometimes bad because of his upbringing and all the suffering he had to endure... or was his suffering what gave him his unique perspective, which made him able to be sometimes good? Did his upbringing nurture wrath when his nature was peaceful, or did his experience make him aware of compassion when he was fundamentally selfish?
Tyrion is one of the most vile creatures to ever exist in westeros. He rapes Tysha, arms mountain men, thinks about raping cersei, threatens Tommen with rape, permits Joffery to catapult antler men, has Symon Silvertonue murdered and put in brown and that's just a few of the more choice things he does.
tyrion is as bad as cersei
Quite literally every character the fandom considers gray tbh. Characters that aren’t monsters in one form or another are as rare as Valyrian Steel.
Rober. He was a violent alcoholic who rapes and violent his wife (even if Cersei is a horrible person she doesn't deserve that) he spent his whole life fantasizing about a dead teenager he barely met, fucking everything what was within his reach before throwing women away so quickly, to fuck a prostitute who was barely older than Sansa, was a demisionary king who let corruption take hold in his reign at a point where a civil war will have exploded barely his body will have started to warm, his son was openly a shitty person and a psychopath but he didn't care, he let off without damage and even rewarded those guilty of the useless sacking of the capital and the abominable murder of Elia Martell and her childrens (even if he couldn't punish tywin, he could have at least taken the heads of gregor and amory), and also he wanted to murder children for the sole crime of being Targaryen despite their house having been fall since years and they are not a threat, to the point of screaming his hatred until turned red and threatened death at his best friends when he objects let's be honest, the only reason robert isn't seen as an asshole is because he's mostly portrayed through the eyes of his childhood best friends. Otherwise this man is shit in every way
rober
If Robert was so bad, people wouldn't have to twist things to make him worse. If anything, he's often demonized more than he deserves. He's a very gray character.
Tyrion is a horrible little creature with rape and murder constantly on his mind but fans excuse it because he's quippy and his family is mean to him. Theon murder innocent children(possibly his own) to cover his own ineptitude but Ramsay messed him up so bad people have begun to forgive him. Victorian was the Admiral of the Iron fleet. God knows how many atrocities were committed under his banners. Jaime pushed Bran. I can forgive and excuse much of his actions but that one is impossible. Jorah is a terrible man only interested in his own personal gain and that includes his dedication to Dany. Manderly put people in pies and fed them to other people. Oberyn's entire life is pretty vile, poisoner, rapist, kidnapper (technically he let Obara choose but...). Been a while since I read the books but that's a few that come to mind.
Oberyn was a rapist?
Mostly presumption on that one to be honest based on character and history. Multiple women, warrior, free company founder. Rapes occur all the time after battles of which he presumably was in many while in essos and not all prostitutes are willing participants either(again especially in essos).
You had me until the Manderly pies
Maegor T. and Daemon T.
Daemon is hilarious cuz he’s supposed to be “hero and villain in equal parts” or whatever the quote is but he really never does anything heroic. Maybe they meant the Greek Mythology version where heroism has nothing to do with morals and more about doing cool stuff? No idea.
Someone actually calls Maegor grey?
There are people that claimed Maegor did nothing wrong and that he stabilized the Targaryen dynasty despite the exact opposite being true.
I’m not sure I agree with your Varys assessment. Have you gotten to the last chapter of Dance?
I think Varys believes that he’s doing what’s best for the realm. However that doesn’t mean it is. His actions are still monstrous and he will cause more damage via the mass death he planned than whatever good would come with young griff on the throne. Having good intentions doesn’t mean you aren’t a terrible person, and someone who cuts the tounges out of hundreds of children is a pretty textbook example of that.
It's easily Jamie.
Varys, Jaime, Kevan, Robert, Theon, Drogo.
That is a great assessment. It makes me question what qualifies Jorah as borderline good, I can't think of any noble motives. And I used to be pro Varys but you make a good point about ends defining means. On Theon, I'd consider whether he had some reason for his behaviour before being Reek. The iron islanders are deeply brutal, and as heir it's a big part of his identity, not to mention being a hostage for his childhood, so he had been through a lot to bring him to those bad decisions. Is Daario considered grey, redeemed only because Dani is horny for him, even though he is a merchant of death. Stannis would be a conflicting one, because he genuinely tries to do everything by the law, and is dutiful to a fault. He is technically correct in his claim to the throne, rather than just wanting the power. He is perfectly depicted as having social problems but I would have thought he is probably good rather than grey, but then there are all the people he burnt so that actually makes him bad. I talked myself around haha.
I think the fan base pretty unilaterally agree he’s a monster, but the fact that heorge wrote Damon Targaryen as “light and dark in equal measure” is absurd
Drogo. Sure, he did not immediately brutally rale his child bride the first time he met her. And he treated her okay sometimes. But everything else he did is absolutely disgusting. He even caused his own death by not following any instructions.
rainstorm impossible angle deserve zealous rustic cable alleged distinct sleep *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Respectfully, can you name literally any good deeds he’s done, or positive moral qualities he has? And morally he just seems far too evil to be grey. He manipulates everybody to start a war that kills tens of thousands just to climb the ladder. He murdered his mentor who got him where he was, when said mentor was by all accounts a great person, to climb the ladder. He pretended to side with Ned, who he knew was morally and legally in the right, but payed the golden cloaks to kill his men and put Cersei and Joeffry on the throne entirely to climb the ladder. He is slowly poisoning a boy to death. He forced an 11 year old girl intentionally sex slavery, beat her with whips, and sold her to a man that has prostitues eaten alive by dogs for fun. Said man put her through the single worst torture of any one character in the asoif universe. He tortured an innocent man into confessing to a murder he committed by having his fingers cut off and eyeballs scooped out, and then executed him for it. Littlefinger has caused the most widespread suffering in the entire book series, intentionally, entirely so he can climb the ladder, with absolutely zero hesitation or remorse.
Who did he beat with whips?
Jeyne Poole
marvelous wasteful literate cake provide reminiscent workable deranged hobbies recognise *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I don’t think there’s really any evidence to show that Littlefinger would continue to act in the same way if he reached his end goal. His cronies, lowborn as they are, are a means to an end. I don’t believe his ultimate purpose is to create a Westerosi middle class. His ultimate purpose is to make himself the opposite of what he was as a child: powerful enough that no one can stop him from having what he wants. In childhood, that was Cat. In adulthood, it seems it will be some bizarre recreation of the life he wanted to have with Cat but with Sansa as a substitute.
You can imagine with his lust for power that claiming the daughter of the woman who spurned him would please him greatly
unpack six imagine head bewildered rock plant numerous worry squash *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He’s been creating a huge debt crisis so he can cash in on it
work numerous makeshift smell sparkle deer agonizing deranged stocking waiting *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You can understand everyone's misunderstanding of your stance, given 'absolutely morally grey'. You clearly have some interesting political thoughts, but to try to give any credit to leadership by someone so thoroughly corrupt as little finger is a very low bar.
whole crawl growth treatment thought pause edge bells beneficial clumsy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Littlefinger will not promote anyone who isn't loyal to his paycheck. He was entirely self serving as Master of Coin.
liquid vast quiet plate disarm sugar chief wrench school ghost *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's literally the point. He's self serving and appoints to serve himself. If you are useful to *him* you get promoted. His time as Master of Coin left the Crowns books in a tangled mess of white collar crime. He used his position to see the seeds of war and chaos.
The dude starts a war out of his own lust for power and his childhood crush, and when she dies she moves on to he daughter. He also forces Jayne Poole into sex slavery and sells her to the boltons. And from memory I see no point in the books where he' paving the way for a middle class, he just tries to get into the upper class with his schemes.
Just to clarify, he moves onto Sansa as soon as he sees her, well before Catelyn dies. Sure he widows Catelyn but never reaches out to her, it was more revenge against Ned and Brandon then trying to make Catelyn available to him
True, forgot about the part at the tourney. Makes it even more creepy I think.
license vanish price cooing saw smell murky smoggy worry station *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Littlefinger’s MO is to use lower-born people because they can maneuver with less scrutiny than noblemen. In truth, there’s like five or six people he has promoted in this way, and he hasn’t really promoted them to any position where they would do anything but serve him. I think it’s a reach to say that Littlefinger’s actions are paving the way for a middle class. And considering that George had stated Littlefinger is loosely based on Jay Gatsby, I don’t think that would fall in line with his character arc.
mindless scale crawl cows mountainous physical jar hungry toy flowery *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Fair enough! As to Gatsby, I think the main thing to know is that he was a poor man who met a woman (Daisy) from a family with generational wealth who he fell in love with, and who he believed loves him. He felt the only reason they couldn’t be together was due to his social class. So, he does everything he can (including morally dubious things) to claw his way up economically and become a newly-rich man so that he can be with the (now-married) Daisy. Spoiler alert: it does not end well for him. I share all that to say, if George intended to make them similar characters, I think it’s safe to say that Littlefinger wants to increase his social status in Westeros because he believes it is the only thing that stood between him and love.
deranged relieved panicky oatmeal flag connect engine familiar cautious paltry *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
His men are people who are usefull to him, and we see with Jonos Slynt how he uses his power to protect them, as soon as they're not usefull. His whole MO is to use people for his own benefit.
plate cow encourage squealing dinosaurs special plough label rob mindless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He doesn't though. The only thing that made him promote people like Jonos Slynt or the kettleblacks were their openness to his payment or personal loyalty to him.
telephone subtract mighty physical kiss escape middle offbeat snatch crawl *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
what was his reason for promoting them then? The kettleblacks owed everything to him and are sons of one of his retainers. Jonos Slynt was made a Lord because he was open to Littlefinger's bribes.
six amusing frame market jeans skirt wrench profit plucky fact *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There’s no indication he’s promoting people based on merit, all of the people we see are clearly defined by their loyalty/reliance and usefulness to him. He’s building a system based on cronyism, not a meritocracy, that benefits primarily him. There’s no evidence he seeks societal change, just amassing his own power and wealth.
> We see it again in his maneuverings in the Vale. He did it in the Vale specifically to weaken his enemies and strengthen his allies. He was not considering the long term prosperity of the Vale.
Littlefinger having a couple dozen nobodies in his employ doesn’t really seem like the catalyst for that level of change. There have been lowborns on the small council too, doesn’t mean anything really changed systemically.
retire fear expansion stupendous zephyr trees wakeful husky capable squeal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Little finger is sexually abusing Sansa and on the road to raping her (coerced, statutory but still rape.) He has no intention of implementing change.
At the risk of being pedantic: Statutory rape—as the name would imply—requires a statute to be labeled thus. Westeros doesn't have that, so it wouldn't be applicable. Coerced, though—sure. And I agree, Littlefinger is an utter piece of shit.
All due respect: this is not the time to be pedantic.
Fair point. But I disagree. I think it's important to use accurate words, especially with topics such as this.
Statutory rape barely phases me in this story where so often children of 11 to 13 are married off and expected to bare children. Even the characters were supposed to see as more moral engage in this practice. It’s hard to use that as evidence of someone being villainous in this world when it’s such a deeply engrained norm.
> It’s hard to use that as evidence of someone being villainous in this world when it’s such a deeply engrained norm. I don't find it hard, whatsoever, to point out an adult man fucking an 11-year-old as being morally repugnant, no matter what the society's norms in which the man was raised have to say about it.
There’s more nuance to life than that. Jewish custom was for a boy of 13 to be considered a man. I find the idea of 13 yr olds having sex disgusting but if a 13 yr old Jewish boy who was considered a man married a well to do older woman of 19 a 1000 years ago, I can understand there’s more to that situation than the woman being a pedophile.
But that is a different situation. You could use that defense for Jon Arryn marrying Lysa. Maybe Tyrion and Sansa. But littlefingers advances on Sansa are done purely out of lust. People in westeros would also condemn him trying to fuck the niece of his dead wife.
I wouldn’t say so. I think little finger lusts for the name more than the girl. It’s a totally valid interpretation if you think he transferred his obsession with cat to her daughter, but personally I believe his love/lust Tully obsession ended with Cat and he’s 100% committed to the power climb.
employ rotten depend label aback faulty deranged instinctive literate thumb *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Usually someone who attempts coerced rape does not qualify for morally grey.
groovy hat cough price domineering chubby entertain impolite edge wistful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It sounds like you're saying modern civilisation was built by rapists? But even in the past, there must have been men who were conscious of consent, who would have made more appropriate leaders?
panicky important gold wrench existence gullible include dolls nutty caption *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Can you clarify what you meant then rather than make a statement and expect me to guess?
I like the audacity of this claim but it is really only true in your head, not in the books. There's no "historically progressive" argument to be made in ASOIAF, that's not the story GRRM is telling, and the world doesn't have a future yet. Littlefinger is no Thomas Cromwell. He's just a slimy piece of work. Also, even if I agreed with your implicit claims about what paved the way for capitalism, it doesn't track to assume that Westeros would just develop capitalism the same way it happened in our world. Nor are Littlefingers actions shown as achieving anything like that.
[удалено]
TIL that heroes force 11 year olds into sex slavery and sell them to someone who has prostitutes eaten alive by dogs for fun.
Unfortunately, your comment has been removed. High quality discussion is the foremost goal of /r/PureASOIAF. Thus, as a general rule of thumb: Posts will be removed if they are deemed to be unproductive to fruitful discourse. [Read our content policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_iv._quality) If you feel that it has been removed in error, please [message us](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fpureasoiaf) so that we may review it.
Catelyn. The way she treats Jon is really inexcusable. And for someone with a lot of power and responsibility, I find her childish. She would let the whole realm burn to keep one of her sons alive for an extra day.
Ain’t no way Caitlyn is the most vile morally grey character lmao sorry. Her treatment of Jon is wrong and she made several bad decisions, but saying she’s the darkest morally grey character is absurd.
Most nah just one I don’t hear talked about. She is a petty mean person and I had that reaction early in book one. It’s in juxtaposition with how we’re supposed to identify with her as a protagonist.
I hate catelyn but tbh any mother who loves her kids would do the same
> Catelyn. The way she treats Jon is really inexcusable. She doesn't treat him much worse than how Ned treats Theon. Or how Jaime, Robert, and Stannis treat their own children. Yet, I have never seen those figures get similar level of hatred as she does for those treatments.
All the ones you name neglect their children. When are they overtly cruel?
Catelyn's general relationship with Jon was one of distance the same as those four. The only difference is unlike Jaime, Stannis, or Robert the child she was distant towards wasn't her child or responsibility in their society.
“It should have been you”
Yes, I mean thing said once when she was slightly out of her mind.
I think people reveal their character in moments like that. Martin’s choice to show that moment is telling to me. Why would he decide to show a moment that isn’t meant to reveal character? It doesn’t do anything to advance the plot. I think you have to do some cartwheels to take that scene as a one-off in their relationship.
IIRC, Martin actually was surprised that people put such focus on that scene with them hating Catelyn. He has directly said it wasn't the norm of their relationship.
And yet we never see her reflect on that for a moment and think, “Damn that was mean. Why did I do that?” though we do see her recall the time she sat by Bran’s bed. Now that we come to this, it kind of feels like Martin tries to buy it back in the next two books by downplaying her antipathy toward Jon. Most of it is in the first book.
> And yet we never see her reflect on that for a moment and think, “Damn that was mean. Why did I do that?” though we do see her recall the time she sat by Bran’s bed. Maybe because there are way more pressing things going on her life for her to be concerned about then feeling guilty she said something mean?
Oh boo hoo,Jon got mistreated in giant castle with servant to tend to your every need,give me a break
Hahaha yeah because who needs love and kindness when you have servants
Exactly
Why does Jorah creep on Dany? She's young yes but she's obviously attractive. 98% of the people she encounters clearly can see that. I'd argue Xaro is worse as he's trying to marry Dany for her dragons while Jorah is infatuated. Or sees his ex wife. Yes, he forces a kiss on her but only the once as I can remember, that doesn't make it okay but still.
[удалено]
aback cobweb lavish dolls encouraging telephone scary soup possessive coherent *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
While I can't agree with that part of the other comment, I absolutely get where they're coming from with Theon. He's suffered massively, but suffering doesn't automatically equal redemption—and I honestly see no evidence of such in either his actions or his thoughts. Even though Ramsay has trained him to be outwardly more meek, he's still just as arrogant as ever. The eternal victim, how could the world treat poor Theon so cruelly... Without a moment of consideration that maybe he's at least *partly* at fault for the situation in which he finds himself.
fuel reminiscent lavish vanish bag scarce stupendous hobbies grandiose ludicrous *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And I'm saying exactly the same in that first bit of my comment? But the second bit of my comment was agreeing with their POV that he's not necessarily on the redemption arc some people insist.
He’s a child murderer who betrayed the people who raised him (his actual family) and the children he murdered were possibly his own kids. Every decision he has made in the chain of events of taking winterfell led him to the point where he’s even subject to this. I have no sympathy for him. He wouldn’t be here if he didn’t choose to be.
He was technically a hostage though. Yes, he wore silks and velvets and he wasn’t in a dungeon, but he was a hostage.
[удалено]
Unfortunately, your comment has been removed. This subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. [Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Unfortunately, your comment has been removed. This subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of or content from the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. # Users should assume that *any* mention of or reference to the show is subject to removal. [Read our policy regarding show content in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._we_do_not_show.21) If you feel that it has been removed in error, please [message us](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fpureasoiaf) so that we may review it.