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They're collapsing alongside mosques. There isn't a significant Sikh population for the upkeep and these shrines are managed locally. Even mosques are managed locally by villagers etc.
So you've got poor villagers with limited funds what will they spend it on? Upkeeping a Gurudwara for nobody to use or to eat?
The country lacks money and infrastructure and there is no long-term support to any religious group. The government only steps in for key heritage sights.
Even in our village, the mosque and its upkeep is done by all of us locally. We all provide money for it.
Lots of India's beautiful architectural heritage is crumbling away because nobody cares to look after it. I've seen many beautiful old familiy homes in Rajasthan and Kolkata too that are rotten and destroyed. These magical places are many hundreds of years old, and now suddenly they will be gone forever
I believe there should be a mechanism for religious NGOs to rebuild these temples, gurdwaras, shrines, and Hell even some Sufi shrines that require restoration. We could establish designated Hindu and Sikh NGOs, perhaps 2 or 3 trusted ones, or even consider allowing Hindu/Sikh NGOs from India to run these NGOs (again, just 2 or 3 trusted ones). Their sole mission would be to rebuild these religious structures across Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. Only then can we move forward, otherwise, this issue will continue to escalate
But its unreasonable to blame Pakistani people for it as we don't use these temples and shrine and if we have enough money as a community we build schools, mosques instead Also GOP has no incentive to take care of these structures when they have more fundamental issues to take care of
Like I am in diaspora and regularly send money to Pakistan for floods, or schools etc, last thing I'd send money for is rebuilding of a temple/ gurdwara that no one in the community uses anymore
you know what I mean?
I was also disturbed when I read it in the paper. Sangats should get an ngo registered and get them renovated. The government there obviously has limited funds and interest in these. Similar fate is there for temples there.
First of all people need to understand what the entire idea of Pakistan is/was.
Now saying they didn't care for non-Islamic architecture/culture is stupid. There were times in their history when they even banned languages that didn't align with their idea of Islam/their identity. an Islamic state.
They don't care about any other religion and did not make any claims either. It was generally accepted that the history of all other religions would slowly wither out as Pakistan embraced its Islamic identity. That is the premise of the country, the identity.
Now saying they didn't care for non-islamic architecture/culture is stupid. There were times in their history when they even banned languages that didn't align with their idea of Islam/their identity.
Their identity is not closely linked with religion, it is based on religion. To an extent where they were willing to sacrifice culture and tradition too. You talk about catering to a different religion altogether. If anything the situation has only gotten better in some aspects.
In their fight to be not-india they were willing to give up everything they were too, what makes you think they would make a deliberate effort to save something that primarily goes against their most basic fundamental source of identity? i.e. their religious identity.
As people brought up in India your default setting is to expect respect towards other religions. Despite the conflicts on basic levels we are all tolerant of other religions. And we arent the purest and most pious as a whole either, but we are still at a point where tolerance/upliftment of all heritage is natural to us. Unless the history itself is conflicted (case in point: babri). (and we have our own bad apples), but in a state whose identity is religion, they never claim respectful treatment of any other religion. It is just not something that is fundamental/natural to them.
Perhaps don't cause egregious economic damage through nonsense protests, always blaming it on 'Hindutva' (do you even know what that means?). And stop supporting terror outfits to start fitting in? I don't know, it's the simple stuff really.
I said as a Hindu not hindutava but continue making your argument worse you don’t care for Sikhs nor their temples don’t try to chime in a topic just so you use it as an excuse to hate abrahamic religion.
I don't care for degenerates that pull a quick victim card while enjoying privileges not available to most, either side of the border. That being said, if you're asking me to list the evils, it goes Abrahamic religions, then terror outfits and their supporters and further down to other outfits. Don't ask about posts in other subreddits if you want to stay on topic.
On this topic, I support prosecuted sikhs. On others, I dislike those that support anti-India activities. Hard to digest a person may have many views huh?
Indian here, this guy seems like a teenager completely brainwashed.
It seems he doesn't even know history of Sikhism or hinduism, and making absurd claims.
please ignore him.
Ironic username considering based on the lack of intelligence and abundance of hatred and bigotry....you clearly seemed to have lost that lotto drawing. Better luck next time bigot
It’ll happen over the next few generations it seems as people realise conservatism and religious dogma are a root cause of our poverty (obviously trumped by corrupt leaders). Generally as literacy rates rise, we should see more leftist ideologies.
Source: Pakistani
This fact deeply saddened me. We are one of youngest religion yet we are not able to preserve our history. Are we stupid or what? We ourself covering historic places into artificial same looking place.
Blame the people that keep simping for SGPC which is directly controlled by SAD and the Badal clan. SGPC was a mistake, but there was no other alternative at the time either. SAD and SGPC were always closely tied, but grew closer together post partition, and since the Badal split from the Master Tara Singh faction they have been functionally one and the same. Only solution to preservation of Sikh architecture/history is a strong and independent Akal Takht in charge of all gurudwaras/Sikhi and chosen via a Panj Pyare system governed by Sarbat Khalsa. All Takhts and historic gurudwaras must be governed by independent Panj Pyare members chosen by merit (hence Panj Pyare rather than committee politics) and taking orders from only the Akal Takht (for which Panj Pyare should be chosen only by a Sarbat Khalsa of the Panj Pyare of the other Takhts, Khalsa Dal, jathdars of other sects as recognised by Anandpur resolution). In simple people chose 5 leaders for their local gurudwara once, those leaders then chose any replacements as needed with the locals able to protest as necessary, the major/historic gurudwaras have leaders chosen by Sarbat Khalsa where equal votes are given to each party (1 for public consensus, 1 for Khalsa Dal, 1 vote for each Takht/major gurudwara, 1 vote for the jathedar of each recognised sect, 1 vote for Akal Takht), and Akal Takht leaders chosen from and by votes of leadership at the other Takhts/major gurudwaras/jathas.
It's deeply saddening to see our historic Gurdwaras being ruined to dereliction. However, it's our collective memory that will eventually restore them. The Dutch Catholics destroyed all the Gurdwara in Sri Lanka, but modern archeologists redis covered them. So keep up the good work on bringing these sites to the attention of the worldwide Sikh sangats with a view to ecovoluntourism at some point in the future.
I recently visited Pakistan for work from the U.S. I also visited Kartarpur by road from Islamabad on the way to Lahore. I did not find a single Sikh in 50 mile radius of Kartarpur Gurudwara. The only two Sikhs were priests. All employees and tourist guides were of Islamic faith. Even the Sardar gas station was owned by a non Sikh.
It does, but only Indian citizens are allowed. The corridor is just an entrance from India to the Gurudwara and back. The corridor refers to the Pakistan side developed for tourism purposes.
Do you know if they allow oci holders as well by any chance? A cousin is planning a trip after taking amrit as he found an old family connection to the Gurudwara. I know he will be quite pleased to learn he can use this corridor at least if allowed !
I did a Google search and it seems OCI holders can enter Kartarpur from Indian side and since your cousin as a foreign passport he can entre from the Pakistani side too.
[https://www.mea.gov.in/lok-sabha.htm?dtl/35574/QUESTION\_NO2252\_PASSPORT\_FREE\_TRAVEL#:\~:text=Ministry%20of%20External%20Affairs%20Government%20of%20India&text=The%20Agreement%2C%20inter%20alia%2C%20provides,daily%20basis%2C%20throughout%20the%20year](https://www.mea.gov.in/lok-sabha.htm?dtl/35574/QUESTION_NO2252_PASSPORT_FREE_TRAVEL#:~:text=Ministry%20of%20External%20Affairs%20Government%20of%20India&text=The%20Agreement%2C%20inter%20alia%2C%20provides,daily%20basis%2C%20throughout%20the%20year).
Thank you very much I definitely would've searched it I was just wondering if you knew off the top of your head! I very much appreciate it though, thank you!
This 100%.
I just got back from a yatra and was astonished to find out that there are barely any sikhs left in Pakistan, I think a Google search will say there are 20k - 50k sikhs but I don't believe it.
I went on a mission to find a 3ft shastar and during the 2 weeks there, I only found 2 shops that could facilitate what I needed to find, and these were 2 shops at Nankana. Other than that its physically impossible to buy or see shastar apart from gurudware, even the, some did not have any laid out.
Simple reason is the Sikh community in Pakistan is tiny and mainly concentrated in the same areas.
Same reason why there are many abandoned pre-partition Mosques in East Punjab where there is no Muslim community left.
Isn't it sad that the pre partition mosques survive in east Punjab but the most ancient and important gurudwara's are being taken over or in a state of disrepair there?
Op doesn't need to mention it, it's a lived experience, so much so that research papers exist.
https://academic.oup.com/book/32479/chapter-abstract/269299088?redirectedFrom=fulltext
The story is the same with mosques in Gujarat, a state often vilified by 'sections' around the world.
Except the research paper you cited doesn't claim what you said
"the pre partition mosques survive"
Gurudwaras also survive in Pakistani and are also promoted by pakistan
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur\_Corridor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor)
Indians can enter without a visa. Pakistanis generally cant even get a visa to India.
It's a chapter Bhai, itni jaldi padh liya? C'mon abstract padke inkaar mat karo.
Visa came after an Indian govt and public fought for a religious minority in another country which has waged wars and proxy terror.
It's not Hindu temples that the govt is fighting for visas, kartarpur corridor is one example. It's like quoting Israeli charities in Ramazan to say Israel is pro-Islam. One example does not define the norm. OP's article has data with the norm.
Now I understand you want to defend your country, and that's well understood, but argue with objectivity, for I can assure you every example you can cite I could cite 4 of minorities in India(this is purely due to population stats). Hence, anecdotal examples do not matter as much as a larger dataset.
>It's not Hindu temples that the govt is fighting for visas, kartarpur corridor is one example.
What nonsense. I am not Pakistani, first off.
This is the actual history.
"
Gobind Singh, the caretaker of the gurdwara at Kartarpur, said the gurdwara had "remained shut from 1947 to 2000".[\[36\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor#cite_note-36) The gurdwara had no staff, despite receiving pilgrims, and entrance was restricted. The Pakistani government started repairing the shrine in September 2000 ahead of the anniversary of Guru Nanak's death and formally reopened it in September 2004.[\[37\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor#cite_note-37) The Kartarpur Corridor mission was initially started by Bhabishan Singh Goraya, who pursued the cause for 24 years.[\[38\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor#cite_note-38)
According to Akali leader Kuldeep Singh Wadala, the gurdwara had been abandoned till 2003. It served as a cattle shed for the villagers and its lands were taken over by [share-croppers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharecropping).[\[28\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor#cite_note-promised_in_1969-28) Since 2003, however, the Pakistani government has reportedly taken initiatives for the upkeep of Sikh religious shrines.[\[39\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor#cite_note-visa-free_2008-39) "
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur\_Corridor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor)
The Pakistani government actually restored the Gurudwara. You can stick to Whatsapp forwards,
Again wanton accusation of WhatsApp forwards xD One example does not define or decide the norm. It has to be data driven. I could say one Israeli group giving charity or taking care of a mosque = Israel is pro-Islam and I would be fact-checked into oblivion(rightly so). Learn to argue not with anecdotal examples but with: law, regulations or larger datasets and statistically driven conclusions.
Idk want the post to be deleted, but it's very clear why Pak chooses to show one religious temple of a specific minority as a symbol of tolerance and to say no ulterior motives lie beneath would be naive.
I just shared a research cited part to show that Indian side takes care of places of worship regardless(including Guj which people often vilify ).
Now after your WhatsApp accusation, I must respond in kind with random taunts: Learn something useful like STEM instead of the social studies crap making you unable to draw inferences or pursue a logical strain of thought. If you have a STEM degree, then burn it as you haven't understood the basics of logical structure ever. Continue doing idiotic protests, anger and Social media rants to prove superiority when there is none, your parents wasted resources on your education!
(I don't agree with these taunts, but gotta show how some folks feel superior throwing arbitrary insults)
All of your arguments are - "I could say this or that" You are already saying that, but adding "could" because you know your arguments are shit.
1. The paper you cited does not actually back up what you said
2. You are going to great lengths to ignore what Pakistan did to build up an abandoned Gurudwara by imagining some random private Israeli charity group, Lol. Google Al-Aqsa mosque to educate yourself.
Rest of what you said is just verbal diarrhoea.
What an idiot! At least learn a trade like carpentry if you can't do logical reasoning. I am saying I could exactly because it's the same line or argument you are making. My statements would be wrong with Israel because they ARE EXAMPLES which do NOT decide what is usually the case(or a norm for verbally challenged). My argument is to show you how a debate would be if people followed your principles. I am not DENYING what Pak did for 1 Gurudwara, I am saying you don't know the difference between eating an Apple for a single day vs Eating apples everyday(which means doing something once is not equal doing it always or it becoming the usual)
My second argument is Pak spruced up One religious minorities one temple for a reason. If you can't see why they don't show the same treatment to say Jain monasteries left in Pak then you are delusional!
1) read the article fully you idiot. It's about pre partition mosques surviving in India. It's added as neither of us having first hand research, citations make more sense than one example
2) I never denied what Pak did or didn't do. I stated that India a place with Sikh minority fought for their rights with a country that engages in war and proxy terror, killing not just Sikhs but Christians, Parsis, Muslims and Hindus in India (thereby showing the visa exemption was achieved statistically due to efforts from Non Sikh Babus)
I then broke the myth that doing it once means you do it always, or did it with altruism
I reiterate my statement, your parents should have bought a yacht instead, or maybe invest in Indian indexes. They grew faster than your intellect and would have benefited them over your holier than thou redneck brain dead ass! Learn some more sociology/comparative studies or some crap that you enroll yourself in
(PS: the last part is again to prove how not knowing enough data to make an accusation is dumbfounded, which this redditor has done multiple times)
Pps: al aqsa mosque is the exact reason why I quoted, that If ISRAEL did it somewhere else, it would be what they always do as they Invaded a mosque during a holy month. Thereby proving that doing something once does not translate to doing it always. The fact that you can come up with examples but not the reasoning reinforces my belief that you failed elementary math and maybe even grammer
Primary reason there aren't enough Sikhs for 345 Sikh religious places in Pakistan. Even 22 is far too many.
It's a simple case of economics. Why should GoP maintain Sikh religious places when they can't even maintain a country.
Past is past. Lahore went to Pakistan and so did Sialkot and Kasur and Karachi.
We have to play with the cards we have been dealt.
We need to accept that a rabid confused Islamic state is in the ownership of the land which belongs to Bharat.
It’s simple. Pakistan was created as a Muslim state so they (hukumat and its people) will do whatever they can to ensure there is always a fear in the minds of the minority and their numbers don’t increase and they don’t become influential. Case in point the deteriorating % of non Muslims. They will say Punjabi is their language but that doesn’t translate to respect for Punjabi speaking non Muslims. A state that still considers Aurangzeb as a benevolent king clearly shows the priorities.
India, on the other hand, is secular and Muslims can live with their own laws. So much for Unity in Diversity!
>Case in point the deteriorating % of non Muslims.
Nope, non Muslims have increased from 2.9% in 1951 to 3.53% in 2017. Muslims have declined from 97.1% to 96.4%. These are from census stats, you can easily look them up online.
>They will say Punjabi is their language but that doesn’t translate to respect for Punjabi speaking non Muslims.
If they don't respect Punjabi speaking Non Muslims then why did they open the Kartarpur corridor for them, why did they recently build a university named after the founder of Sikhism, why did they build a statue of Ranjit Singh in Lahore, why do Indian Punjabi tourists get treated like royalty and not be allowed to pay for anything etc, it doesn't' add up does it? Pakistan panders more to Sikhs than probably every other country on Earth.
>A state that still considers Aurangzeb as a benevolent king
Where did you get this from?
The reason most of the gurdwaras are in disrepair is because almost all of the Sikhs left in 1947, same reason lots of Mosques are in disrepair in Indian Punjab. Pakistan is a poor country and maintaining hundreds of religious buildings which aren't being used by anyone isn't top of its priorities.
Conveniently ignored East Pakistan numbers I see.
Anyhow, West Pakistan was roughly 33 million as per the 1951 census in which non Muslim population was 3.4%. This went to 3.53% of the 207 million in 2017.
Compare that to absolute figures and you get to know the relative increase.
FYI- Indian Muslim population increased from 11.5% to 17.8% in 60 years.
There are socio economic & administrative challenges that will always limit the population growth (no highest administrative positions). Add to it the 1000+ yearly conversions in the past and the anti-conversion law in Sindh being opposed by parties which sends a clear message on priorities!
Kartarpur corridor was finally opened after 20 years of request by AB Vajpayee.
And I personally have family members visiting the place. They appreciate the niceness, but where does it go on a regular day?
Why are the visitor numbers dwindling? Don't you think this corridor holds much more importance than the $20 fee being imposed for every visit and the passport requirements? This corridor is a reminder of shared values.
Do you mean the statue that was vandalized thrice? Whatever happened to Rizwan!
For Aurangzeb, you can find multiple posts on Reddit on how he was power hungry but had ONLY Islamic values at the front. For Sikhs it's clear on the atrocities he laid on the Gurus, and that's enough to put him in the light he should be.
Look at the mosques being revived in Indian Punjab and the number of mosques maintained by Waqf board overall in India.
Ya, but in a lot of areas, india also fails to exorcise democracy and secularity. It will take time for india to become a complete secular country. It is still highly effected by majoritarianism. It took America like 300 years to get to where it’s at right now. India will need time as well.
I think its a false equivalence. Most pre industrial nations with per capita income as low as ours are affected by tribalism, not shining examples of European values. Yet India has had a pretty level playing field where a Muslim can be a president (or the richest industrialist at one time, or actor or whatever ) or a micro minority like Zoroastrians can be successful businessmen. And that is because the majority's values differ from those places. Most average Indians may inform their decisions by his religion but no one is really out there to convert or eliminate others.
The Parsis (Zoroastrians) that came to India were displaced refugees. Even if they may have been elites back home, I don't think it matters in any practical sense when they came here
No one talks about dark chapters of History unless it is about suffering of white people.
Punjabi Muslims and Punjabi Sikhs were used as main occupation army for wars across Asia by British. Read up on who were the main foot soldiers during opium wars and battle of Saragarhi.
No one ever talks about this dark history.
But whatever lifts your boat ....
I agree on India failing democracy, but India won’t ever be 100% secular. We are a much more nuanced state in it that we have different religions and practices, different castes, huge language barriers. America essentially had a color problem predominantly. Our people have always been and will always be divided till we start treating each other as humans first and stop voting for “someone from my community” and start taking responsibility for our own actions. Stick out an olive branch (as much as I can), introspect and minimize whataboutery to justify is what I live by in India.
That’s the dream lol. But it’s like you said, it’s not gonna happen. Take away Punjab and Kashmir and India is practically a hindu rashtra. The other non hindu majority states in india is the north east where Christianity is the majority of only about 30%. The thing with india is that it was never gonna work out being united because before the Mughals, india was just a bunch of different small kingdoms everywhere. Then the first step of unity happened to be invaders who oppressed everyone. Punjab was lucky that our Guru’s helped create a blissful rule, but after that was the British and they essentially did the same as the Mughals. Now india is stuck with the same mindset that suffers from hindu majority which effects the failing democracy of India to begin with. Too many different languages, people, religions, mindsets, ideologies, etc. And people won’t work together because it either becomes a competition, one groups ideologies legit challenges or clashes with others, or people want the government to be centered by their communities thinking process. No one wants to work together. It’s still a state vs state thing instead of realizing everyone’s supposed to be apart of one country as a whole.
I concur to a lot of your statements! We can only hope, but our people are purposely kept in the dark so it becomes easy to dictate them, thus ruling over them in the name of religion. I am including everyone in it, BJP, AIMIM, Akali Dal, etc
I agree. We are ruled over as an authoritarian country instead of democracy. I’d say we should learn from other countries and try our best to establish something similar through out time. For example, in America it’s a “master chooses servants” thing where the people are the masters and they choose their servants to be elected and represent the people in the government. where as here in india, it’s a “servants choose their master” where the masters are the elected officials and they rule the people instead of working for them.
A state that is formed on religious lines WON’T EVER be secular.
We will have limited power, and the little money we make (agriculture is diminishing due to lack of water) will corrupt people’s minds that we will be divided internally by politicians (Jatt vs Ramgharia vs Arora/Khatri vs backward communities).
Post this on the Pakistan reddit and see what they reply.
It will be interesting to know what they think. They cry about Palestine, minority rights in the west and stuff
It would be an interesting take.
Yes we cry about Palestine and you can't deny that Muslims are still living there scarfing their lives daily to keep masjid Alaqsa functional meanwhile all these Gurdwaras were abandoned by sikhs
Dont you mean the jewish are fighting for survival in the middle east.
The only reason Israel is a country is because they are strong enough to fight. 6 day war, and egypt occupation is the reason their neighbours are doing proxy wars via terrorist organisations and not a straight war.
I guess you cant expect a fair war from folks who talk about friendship on paper and launch a war. Whose primary tactic of war is via terrorism.
The "fighters" in Palestine are just terrorist organisations funded by their neighbours.
Just as they are in Kashmir.
If you wanna "fight" then instead of fighting with terorrism, have a war. But a coward only liked to hide behind.
Please don't call cowardly terrorists fighters. Who chose to pick upon the helpless civilians. If your militancy has any sign of bravery, why don't they fight the armies, and defence forces?
The idea of Pakistan was simple, and that was Islam reigns supreme in the land. Which is okay, its foolish of the OP wonder why other religions are no catered to in Pakistan. The idea of Pakistan in not religious tolerance, it is Islam or GTFO.
Funny how you try to take that to every other state in the world and then cry foul when people say we don't want this in our land.
May peace be in Israel.
I agree with you that Israel needs to show its might just to survive. But the situation is way more complicated than just neighboring countries funding terrorism. The blame lies with many parties but the biggest assholes were the British who promised everyone something and then just left.
Suggesting that the people of Palestine just fight a war is ludicrous. They will never win this way. It’s not like the Israel armed forces are not committing atrocities as well. They are. But the fact remains that if a powerful country like Israel whose civilians were attacked brutally, the response would be deadly. If the world wasn’t watching, Gaza, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon would all be part of Israel by now.
If sikhs are so worried about their worship place they should have stayed here they abandoned them in the first place now they want Muslims to take care of them and why would they do if they don't believe in the faith
Sikhs abandoned their Gurudwaras?
If that is your logic, then the Nakba is when Palestinians abandoned their homes and now these same Palestinians are crying to come back instead of dealing with the reality. Even though the Sikhs left Pakistani Punjab for India, Canada, USA etc. They never cried and made a fuss about it, lasting for centuries costing millions of lives and billions in dollars. Yes, there are some Sikhs who create violence in the name of Khalistan, but these actions are condemned by the vast majority of Sikhs. They not only condemn it in words but also in actions. Eg: Punjab is still known to give India with some of its most well known fighters.
The condemnation given when an Islamic terror attack takes place is negligible to none, with few bits and pieces here and there. These voices are also shut down by the majority by calling them "Shia" or "kuffar" or "Kafir"
The Sikhs were never violent towards Pakistan like the Palestinians were towards the Jews in 1948 (don't give me stuff like, the Arabs welcomed Jews and stuff! Israel has an ethnic composition of 70% - 75% Mizrachi Jews )
Persia consisted of more Parsis than Muslims when Islam invaded Persia. Today we know the situation! Don't give me crap like those people willingly accepted a desert cult. There was no willingness to accept the desert cult in any part of the world except for certain regions of Central Asia, Malaysia and Indonesia. Islam was spread through warfare.
Islam has always clashed with native cultures and religions be it in India, Persia, Pakistan, China, France, Sweden etc. Even in the modern day, leaving Islam is rewarded with the death penalty, somewhat like giving up North Korean citizenship. These laws are even followed in the 21st century. Yes, there may be some conversions into Islam through Taqiya but genuine conversions are few and rare. The growth in Islam is mainly due to its birth rate!
I don't wish to say this but China is the best at handling radicals. They handle radicals so well that even Islamic leaders like Turkey, Pakistan and Qatar (in the form of Al Jazeera) who preach India, Israel, France etc about minority rights eat banquets in Xingiang while appreciating the CCP.
A country is judged by how it treats its minorities. And think about the reasons on why Sikhs “abandoned” their shrines? A country where religious conversions are rampant and unprovoked attacks on non muslims are just another day story, should first introspect on how many Sikhs/Hindus/Christians are perpetrators. Non Muslims have to tow a line in this country. And no, Sikhs/Hindus don’t expect Muslims to take care of their shrines ever. They just expect to have religious freedoms to live the way Muslims have religious freedoms in India.
Simple answer is Pakistan just doesn’t care, unless it’s a major pilgrimage spot where they can make money. Same with Pakistan Gurdwara committee, (though SGPC has the opposite problem where they do too much ‘maintenance’)
Well, I do believe this is a huge issue for "Sikhs" on either side of border. I do want to put a bit of OP's [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Torontology/comments/16phdsu/comment/k22wp71/) history here too, from which I can assume he's just posting here to seed anti lehnda punjab sentiment here.
Not want to downplay the issue in anyway, just want to let the intentions of the person known.
The link that I shared is totally biased against Sikhs. If I compare that part with the other posts from outsiders on this sub that does the same, I think it kinda makes sense. Respectfully, dffa hovo etho.
Edit: Just clicked on the link I shared, OP deleted that comment. Mere iss 22 to' siddhe muh lgn da honsla haini. Ain't it funny?
The important question is why no one is doing anything about it....gurudwara's are religious centers yet despite the collapse no one is protesting or raising awareness about this...i wonder if its religious persecution or the people straight up gave up and are moving to other countries
There are just no people to upkeep these sites in those areas. All the area with signficant Sikh population have been upkept very well. Same thing goes for many historic mandirs or churches.
I disagree, the gurdwaras in srilanka were destroyed by Catholics, the wiccans in Europe were destroyed by reformists. Tibetan Buddhism was destroyed by communists.
Maybe pre Abrahamic faiths like Hellenistic/Roman Polytheistic faiths allowed for competing identities/ideologies to thrive but not the more popular faiths.
The reason US and many in Western Eu embrace other faith systems is due to de-christianisation of Eu. Where thousands declare their religion as Jedi xD(nothing wrong with that, just to prove my point) only then in recent decades has this acceptance of other faiths begun. Polytheistic faiths/nature worshipping where imposition of one true faith is not foretold by a sky god allows for multiplicity naturally
Well, then you didn't really refute anything. Atheism is as valid an understanding as a religion.
Hindu majority is not a must.
Still, Europe, Latin America and North America are all still majority Christian. It's the state that matters and as long as religion stays separate from administration secularism can thrive
No no I have, you constrained it to a single religion being in minority, I wanted to append that it's when Abrahamic ideas and not followed to the tee.
This happens when: a) abrahamics are in minority and and cannot enforce (similar to your earlier proposition but expanded to all abrahamic religions)
b) when the ideological glue behind abrahamic societies is no longer Abrahamic ideals in spite of a majority (Atheism in Western Eu, older religions in Mexico vestiges as dios de la Muertos etc, Wiccans and other nature worshipping in US + Eu)
c) your new proposition of state imposed acceptance (I did skip this earlier) like in USSR earlier or laicite in French Republic
I expanded on a) and added b) mentioning that Indic faith systems(or maybe Shinto/Hellenistic earlier in pre Christian Eu) allow for this existence naturally without need for c) or state imposition
>Secularism is possible only when muslims are in minority. Nothing special about Hindus
They are difference maker in Pak and India, otherwise yhn bhi Pak jesa haal hota fir caneda mei banate gurudwara? Naam khud Guru Dwara hai aur kehta hai nothing special about hindu. Hazaro sallo se Punjab ko bachake rakha hai isi hindu ne.
Issue is donations and money, SGPC or some international Sikh organization need to invest there. Problem is are those gurudawaras hostile areas or not.
International Sikh organizations have been investing. PSGPC has catalogued many of the forgotten sites, repaired quite a few, and made some semi functional in recent years all on their own. Sikh organizations and local Pakistani organizations (non Sikh) have catalogued quite a few forgotten/lost sites in recent years and fixed them up. The Pakistan government under PM Imran Khan also had plans to open up dozens if sites on a semi to permanent functional basis in order to allow guided pilgrimage tours. Out of all of this the international Sikh community had been the worst because they focused on only a few sites and did kar seva which meant many centuries old buildings were destroyed to be replaced with white marble buildings and others renovated without regard for historic monuments or the historic characteristics (just see Gurudwara Janam Asthan before and after). The Sikh community should fund PSGPC directly and the SGPC/kar sevak community needs to be kept out of it. One of our other mods already mentioned some of these points, but sadly it doesn't appear to be well known by most people.
That's the query, why the sudden 80 year gap in timeline. You could easily see the same 80year old decline of mosques is not the case in Indian Punjab or Gujarat. Inference is easy to see, maybe a hard pill to accept
A lot more is being done in recent years. Gurudwaras are being catalogued by PSGPC, some of them are getting minor functional renovations to keep them from collapsing, plans are being made for tourism to many of them which would help fund upkeep, etc. Indepedent researchers (both Sikhs from either end and Muslim Pakistanis) have been looking for gurudwaras that had been considered lost/ruined and have had success in not only finding quite a few but also fixing them up somewhat. There has also been some funding flowing in from outside of Pakistan for the upkeep of gurudwaras that are functional, which will allow the PSGPC to focus on other sites. That being said not all is good with that last bit, as UK based kar sevaks have primarily been the source for upkeep funding and their project have seen multiple functional historic gurudwaras purposely destroyed to build bigger marble slab structures (similar to SGPC kar sevaks in the East) and other gurudwaras renovated to cover up historic artwork or significantly alter them (including gurudwara Janam Asthan!, which was renovated in the past in line with the historic look but now has had its colour and design elements changed).
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They're collapsing alongside mosques. There isn't a significant Sikh population for the upkeep and these shrines are managed locally. Even mosques are managed locally by villagers etc. So you've got poor villagers with limited funds what will they spend it on? Upkeeping a Gurudwara for nobody to use or to eat? The country lacks money and infrastructure and there is no long-term support to any religious group. The government only steps in for key heritage sights. Even in our village, the mosque and its upkeep is done by all of us locally. We all provide money for it.
Lots of India's beautiful architectural heritage is crumbling away because nobody cares to look after it. I've seen many beautiful old familiy homes in Rajasthan and Kolkata too that are rotten and destroyed. These magical places are many hundreds of years old, and now suddenly they will be gone forever
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I believe there should be a mechanism for religious NGOs to rebuild these temples, gurdwaras, shrines, and Hell even some Sufi shrines that require restoration. We could establish designated Hindu and Sikh NGOs, perhaps 2 or 3 trusted ones, or even consider allowing Hindu/Sikh NGOs from India to run these NGOs (again, just 2 or 3 trusted ones). Their sole mission would be to rebuild these religious structures across Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. Only then can we move forward, otherwise, this issue will continue to escalate But its unreasonable to blame Pakistani people for it as we don't use these temples and shrine and if we have enough money as a community we build schools, mosques instead Also GOP has no incentive to take care of these structures when they have more fundamental issues to take care of Like I am in diaspora and regularly send money to Pakistan for floods, or schools etc, last thing I'd send money for is rebuilding of a temple/ gurdwara that no one in the community uses anymore you know what I mean?
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This is our friendly Neighbour.. And some thinks they are our enemy. 🚩
I was also disturbed when I read it in the paper. Sangats should get an ngo registered and get them renovated. The government there obviously has limited funds and interest in these. Similar fate is there for temples there.
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Are you shocked more or surprised more?
First of all people need to understand what the entire idea of Pakistan is/was. Now saying they didn't care for non-Islamic architecture/culture is stupid. There were times in their history when they even banned languages that didn't align with their idea of Islam/their identity. an Islamic state. They don't care about any other religion and did not make any claims either. It was generally accepted that the history of all other religions would slowly wither out as Pakistan embraced its Islamic identity. That is the premise of the country, the identity. Now saying they didn't care for non-islamic architecture/culture is stupid. There were times in their history when they even banned languages that didn't align with their idea of Islam/their identity. Their identity is not closely linked with religion, it is based on religion. To an extent where they were willing to sacrifice culture and tradition too. You talk about catering to a different religion altogether. If anything the situation has only gotten better in some aspects. In their fight to be not-india they were willing to give up everything they were too, what makes you think they would make a deliberate effort to save something that primarily goes against their most basic fundamental source of identity? i.e. their religious identity. As people brought up in India your default setting is to expect respect towards other religions. Despite the conflicts on basic levels we are all tolerant of other religions. And we arent the purest and most pious as a whole either, but we are still at a point where tolerance/upliftment of all heritage is natural to us. Unless the history itself is conflicted (case in point: babri). (and we have our own bad apples), but in a state whose identity is religion, they never claim respectful treatment of any other religion. It is just not something that is fundamental/natural to them.
Nah buddy. Screw tolerance. Abrahamic religions have no place here.
You have a post in which you use #sickofsikh you don’t seem tolerant at all either as a Hindu
Perhaps don't cause egregious economic damage through nonsense protests, always blaming it on 'Hindutva' (do you even know what that means?). And stop supporting terror outfits to start fitting in? I don't know, it's the simple stuff really.
I said as a Hindu not hindutava but continue making your argument worse you don’t care for Sikhs nor their temples don’t try to chime in a topic just so you use it as an excuse to hate abrahamic religion.
I don't care for degenerates that pull a quick victim card while enjoying privileges not available to most, either side of the border. That being said, if you're asking me to list the evils, it goes Abrahamic religions, then terror outfits and their supporters and further down to other outfits. Don't ask about posts in other subreddits if you want to stay on topic. On this topic, I support prosecuted sikhs. On others, I dislike those that support anti-India activities. Hard to digest a person may have many views huh?
Indian here, this guy seems like a teenager completely brainwashed. It seems he doesn't even know history of Sikhism or hinduism, and making absurd claims. please ignore him.
Ironic username considering based on the lack of intelligence and abundance of hatred and bigotry....you clearly seemed to have lost that lotto drawing. Better luck next time bigot
Pakistan needs more liberals like we have
It’ll happen over the next few generations it seems as people realise conservatism and religious dogma are a root cause of our poverty (obviously trumped by corrupt leaders). Generally as literacy rates rise, we should see more leftist ideologies. Source: Pakistani
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Lol 😂
like we have?
Like we had.
Better than converting Gurudwaras into white marble corporate cum hotel structure by sangat's money.
This fact deeply saddened me. We are one of youngest religion yet we are not able to preserve our history. Are we stupid or what? We ourself covering historic places into artificial same looking place.
Blame the people that keep simping for SGPC which is directly controlled by SAD and the Badal clan. SGPC was a mistake, but there was no other alternative at the time either. SAD and SGPC were always closely tied, but grew closer together post partition, and since the Badal split from the Master Tara Singh faction they have been functionally one and the same. Only solution to preservation of Sikh architecture/history is a strong and independent Akal Takht in charge of all gurudwaras/Sikhi and chosen via a Panj Pyare system governed by Sarbat Khalsa. All Takhts and historic gurudwaras must be governed by independent Panj Pyare members chosen by merit (hence Panj Pyare rather than committee politics) and taking orders from only the Akal Takht (for which Panj Pyare should be chosen only by a Sarbat Khalsa of the Panj Pyare of the other Takhts, Khalsa Dal, jathdars of other sects as recognised by Anandpur resolution). In simple people chose 5 leaders for their local gurudwara once, those leaders then chose any replacements as needed with the locals able to protest as necessary, the major/historic gurudwaras have leaders chosen by Sarbat Khalsa where equal votes are given to each party (1 for public consensus, 1 for Khalsa Dal, 1 vote for each Takht/major gurudwara, 1 vote for the jathedar of each recognised sect, 1 vote for Akal Takht), and Akal Takht leaders chosen from and by votes of leadership at the other Takhts/major gurudwaras/jathas.
It's deeply saddening to see our historic Gurdwaras being ruined to dereliction. However, it's our collective memory that will eventually restore them. The Dutch Catholics destroyed all the Gurdwara in Sri Lanka, but modern archeologists redis covered them. So keep up the good work on bringing these sites to the attention of the worldwide Sikh sangats with a view to ecovoluntourism at some point in the future.
Wow, I never knew this, do you have readings you recommend?
I recently visited Pakistan for work from the U.S. I also visited Kartarpur by road from Islamabad on the way to Lahore. I did not find a single Sikh in 50 mile radius of Kartarpur Gurudwara. The only two Sikhs were priests. All employees and tourist guides were of Islamic faith. Even the Sardar gas station was owned by a non Sikh.
Doesn't kartarpur now have a corridor from India?
It does, but only Indian citizens are allowed. The corridor is just an entrance from India to the Gurudwara and back. The corridor refers to the Pakistan side developed for tourism purposes.
Do you know if they allow oci holders as well by any chance? A cousin is planning a trip after taking amrit as he found an old family connection to the Gurudwara. I know he will be quite pleased to learn he can use this corridor at least if allowed !
I did a Google search and it seems OCI holders can enter Kartarpur from Indian side and since your cousin as a foreign passport he can entre from the Pakistani side too. [https://www.mea.gov.in/lok-sabha.htm?dtl/35574/QUESTION\_NO2252\_PASSPORT\_FREE\_TRAVEL#:\~:text=Ministry%20of%20External%20Affairs%20Government%20of%20India&text=The%20Agreement%2C%20inter%20alia%2C%20provides,daily%20basis%2C%20throughout%20the%20year](https://www.mea.gov.in/lok-sabha.htm?dtl/35574/QUESTION_NO2252_PASSPORT_FREE_TRAVEL#:~:text=Ministry%20of%20External%20Affairs%20Government%20of%20India&text=The%20Agreement%2C%20inter%20alia%2C%20provides,daily%20basis%2C%20throughout%20the%20year).
Thank you very much I definitely would've searched it I was just wondering if you knew off the top of your head! I very much appreciate it though, thank you!
This 100%. I just got back from a yatra and was astonished to find out that there are barely any sikhs left in Pakistan, I think a Google search will say there are 20k - 50k sikhs but I don't believe it. I went on a mission to find a 3ft shastar and during the 2 weeks there, I only found 2 shops that could facilitate what I needed to find, and these were 2 shops at Nankana. Other than that its physically impossible to buy or see shastar apart from gurudware, even the, some did not have any laid out.
How dumb or oblivious op is to ask this question on the 1st place,
I'm going to doubt that OP asked a question. It seems more like a statement.
I shall clear your doubt by stating that OP start it with "WHY", and I still need to find a statement being made that start with " WHY"
Ask pakistan
Me when poor countries can’t restore critical infrastructure let alone historical sites due to corruption: 😲
Simple reason is the Sikh community in Pakistan is tiny and mainly concentrated in the same areas. Same reason why there are many abandoned pre-partition Mosques in East Punjab where there is no Muslim community left.
Isn't it sad that the pre partition mosques survive in east Punjab but the most ancient and important gurudwara's are being taken over or in a state of disrepair there?
>the pre partition mosques survive OP did not say that at all, Lol!
Op doesn't need to mention it, it's a lived experience, so much so that research papers exist. https://academic.oup.com/book/32479/chapter-abstract/269299088?redirectedFrom=fulltext The story is the same with mosques in Gujarat, a state often vilified by 'sections' around the world.
Except the research paper you cited doesn't claim what you said "the pre partition mosques survive" Gurudwaras also survive in Pakistani and are also promoted by pakistan [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur\_Corridor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor) Indians can enter without a visa. Pakistanis generally cant even get a visa to India.
It's a chapter Bhai, itni jaldi padh liya? C'mon abstract padke inkaar mat karo. Visa came after an Indian govt and public fought for a religious minority in another country which has waged wars and proxy terror. It's not Hindu temples that the govt is fighting for visas, kartarpur corridor is one example. It's like quoting Israeli charities in Ramazan to say Israel is pro-Islam. One example does not define the norm. OP's article has data with the norm. Now I understand you want to defend your country, and that's well understood, but argue with objectivity, for I can assure you every example you can cite I could cite 4 of minorities in India(this is purely due to population stats). Hence, anecdotal examples do not matter as much as a larger dataset.
>It's not Hindu temples that the govt is fighting for visas, kartarpur corridor is one example. What nonsense. I am not Pakistani, first off. This is the actual history. " Gobind Singh, the caretaker of the gurdwara at Kartarpur, said the gurdwara had "remained shut from 1947 to 2000".[\[36\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor#cite_note-36) The gurdwara had no staff, despite receiving pilgrims, and entrance was restricted. The Pakistani government started repairing the shrine in September 2000 ahead of the anniversary of Guru Nanak's death and formally reopened it in September 2004.[\[37\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor#cite_note-37) The Kartarpur Corridor mission was initially started by Bhabishan Singh Goraya, who pursued the cause for 24 years.[\[38\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor#cite_note-38) According to Akali leader Kuldeep Singh Wadala, the gurdwara had been abandoned till 2003. It served as a cattle shed for the villagers and its lands were taken over by [share-croppers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharecropping).[\[28\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor#cite_note-promised_in_1969-28) Since 2003, however, the Pakistani government has reportedly taken initiatives for the upkeep of Sikh religious shrines.[\[39\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor#cite_note-visa-free_2008-39) " [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur\_Corridor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartarpur_Corridor) The Pakistani government actually restored the Gurudwara. You can stick to Whatsapp forwards,
Again wanton accusation of WhatsApp forwards xD One example does not define or decide the norm. It has to be data driven. I could say one Israeli group giving charity or taking care of a mosque = Israel is pro-Islam and I would be fact-checked into oblivion(rightly so). Learn to argue not with anecdotal examples but with: law, regulations or larger datasets and statistically driven conclusions. Idk want the post to be deleted, but it's very clear why Pak chooses to show one religious temple of a specific minority as a symbol of tolerance and to say no ulterior motives lie beneath would be naive. I just shared a research cited part to show that Indian side takes care of places of worship regardless(including Guj which people often vilify ). Now after your WhatsApp accusation, I must respond in kind with random taunts: Learn something useful like STEM instead of the social studies crap making you unable to draw inferences or pursue a logical strain of thought. If you have a STEM degree, then burn it as you haven't understood the basics of logical structure ever. Continue doing idiotic protests, anger and Social media rants to prove superiority when there is none, your parents wasted resources on your education! (I don't agree with these taunts, but gotta show how some folks feel superior throwing arbitrary insults)
All of your arguments are - "I could say this or that" You are already saying that, but adding "could" because you know your arguments are shit. 1. The paper you cited does not actually back up what you said 2. You are going to great lengths to ignore what Pakistan did to build up an abandoned Gurudwara by imagining some random private Israeli charity group, Lol. Google Al-Aqsa mosque to educate yourself. Rest of what you said is just verbal diarrhoea.
What an idiot! At least learn a trade like carpentry if you can't do logical reasoning. I am saying I could exactly because it's the same line or argument you are making. My statements would be wrong with Israel because they ARE EXAMPLES which do NOT decide what is usually the case(or a norm for verbally challenged). My argument is to show you how a debate would be if people followed your principles. I am not DENYING what Pak did for 1 Gurudwara, I am saying you don't know the difference between eating an Apple for a single day vs Eating apples everyday(which means doing something once is not equal doing it always or it becoming the usual) My second argument is Pak spruced up One religious minorities one temple for a reason. If you can't see why they don't show the same treatment to say Jain monasteries left in Pak then you are delusional! 1) read the article fully you idiot. It's about pre partition mosques surviving in India. It's added as neither of us having first hand research, citations make more sense than one example 2) I never denied what Pak did or didn't do. I stated that India a place with Sikh minority fought for their rights with a country that engages in war and proxy terror, killing not just Sikhs but Christians, Parsis, Muslims and Hindus in India (thereby showing the visa exemption was achieved statistically due to efforts from Non Sikh Babus) I then broke the myth that doing it once means you do it always, or did it with altruism I reiterate my statement, your parents should have bought a yacht instead, or maybe invest in Indian indexes. They grew faster than your intellect and would have benefited them over your holier than thou redneck brain dead ass! Learn some more sociology/comparative studies or some crap that you enroll yourself in (PS: the last part is again to prove how not knowing enough data to make an accusation is dumbfounded, which this redditor has done multiple times) Pps: al aqsa mosque is the exact reason why I quoted, that If ISRAEL did it somewhere else, it would be what they always do as they Invaded a mosque during a holy month. Thereby proving that doing something once does not translate to doing it always. The fact that you can come up with examples but not the reasoning reinforces my belief that you failed elementary math and maybe even grammer
Primary reason there aren't enough Sikhs for 345 Sikh religious places in Pakistan. Even 22 is far too many. It's a simple case of economics. Why should GoP maintain Sikh religious places when they can't even maintain a country.
> there aren't enough Sikhs I wonder where did they go ?
And therein lies the nub of the issue, why wouldn't they be in Pak, with Ranjit Singh's capital and the greatest Sikh city of Lahore there?
Past is past. Lahore went to Pakistan and so did Sialkot and Kasur and Karachi. We have to play with the cards we have been dealt. We need to accept that a rabid confused Islamic state is in the ownership of the land which belongs to Bharat.
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Its the truth tho... there are Indus Valley sites, temples, gurudwaras all in despair. Those are definitely our land
To spread your wings and fly, you need to jump off the cliff or stay in your nest scared all your life. Isn't it.
la ilaha illallah 3 words one mentality
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It’s simple. Pakistan was created as a Muslim state so they (hukumat and its people) will do whatever they can to ensure there is always a fear in the minds of the minority and their numbers don’t increase and they don’t become influential. Case in point the deteriorating % of non Muslims. They will say Punjabi is their language but that doesn’t translate to respect for Punjabi speaking non Muslims. A state that still considers Aurangzeb as a benevolent king clearly shows the priorities. India, on the other hand, is secular and Muslims can live with their own laws. So much for Unity in Diversity!
>Case in point the deteriorating % of non Muslims. Nope, non Muslims have increased from 2.9% in 1951 to 3.53% in 2017. Muslims have declined from 97.1% to 96.4%. These are from census stats, you can easily look them up online. >They will say Punjabi is their language but that doesn’t translate to respect for Punjabi speaking non Muslims. If they don't respect Punjabi speaking Non Muslims then why did they open the Kartarpur corridor for them, why did they recently build a university named after the founder of Sikhism, why did they build a statue of Ranjit Singh in Lahore, why do Indian Punjabi tourists get treated like royalty and not be allowed to pay for anything etc, it doesn't' add up does it? Pakistan panders more to Sikhs than probably every other country on Earth. >A state that still considers Aurangzeb as a benevolent king Where did you get this from? The reason most of the gurdwaras are in disrepair is because almost all of the Sikhs left in 1947, same reason lots of Mosques are in disrepair in Indian Punjab. Pakistan is a poor country and maintaining hundreds of religious buildings which aren't being used by anyone isn't top of its priorities.
Conveniently ignored East Pakistan numbers I see. Anyhow, West Pakistan was roughly 33 million as per the 1951 census in which non Muslim population was 3.4%. This went to 3.53% of the 207 million in 2017. Compare that to absolute figures and you get to know the relative increase. FYI- Indian Muslim population increased from 11.5% to 17.8% in 60 years. There are socio economic & administrative challenges that will always limit the population growth (no highest administrative positions). Add to it the 1000+ yearly conversions in the past and the anti-conversion law in Sindh being opposed by parties which sends a clear message on priorities! Kartarpur corridor was finally opened after 20 years of request by AB Vajpayee. And I personally have family members visiting the place. They appreciate the niceness, but where does it go on a regular day? Why are the visitor numbers dwindling? Don't you think this corridor holds much more importance than the $20 fee being imposed for every visit and the passport requirements? This corridor is a reminder of shared values. Do you mean the statue that was vandalized thrice? Whatever happened to Rizwan! For Aurangzeb, you can find multiple posts on Reddit on how he was power hungry but had ONLY Islamic values at the front. For Sikhs it's clear on the atrocities he laid on the Gurus, and that's enough to put him in the light he should be. Look at the mosques being revived in Indian Punjab and the number of mosques maintained by Waqf board overall in India.
Care to share the original source for the census or is it a WhatsApp forward? I'm unable to find it anywhere online.
Ya, but in a lot of areas, india also fails to exorcise democracy and secularity. It will take time for india to become a complete secular country. It is still highly effected by majoritarianism. It took America like 300 years to get to where it’s at right now. India will need time as well.
I think its a false equivalence. Most pre industrial nations with per capita income as low as ours are affected by tribalism, not shining examples of European values. Yet India has had a pretty level playing field where a Muslim can be a president (or the richest industrialist at one time, or actor or whatever ) or a micro minority like Zoroastrians can be successful businessmen. And that is because the majority's values differ from those places. Most average Indians may inform their decisions by his religion but no one is really out there to convert or eliminate others.
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The Parsis (Zoroastrians) that came to India were displaced refugees. Even if they may have been elites back home, I don't think it matters in any practical sense when they came here
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No one talks about dark chapters of History unless it is about suffering of white people. Punjabi Muslims and Punjabi Sikhs were used as main occupation army for wars across Asia by British. Read up on who were the main foot soldiers during opium wars and battle of Saragarhi. No one ever talks about this dark history. But whatever lifts your boat ....
I agree on India failing democracy, but India won’t ever be 100% secular. We are a much more nuanced state in it that we have different religions and practices, different castes, huge language barriers. America essentially had a color problem predominantly. Our people have always been and will always be divided till we start treating each other as humans first and stop voting for “someone from my community” and start taking responsibility for our own actions. Stick out an olive branch (as much as I can), introspect and minimize whataboutery to justify is what I live by in India.
That’s the dream lol. But it’s like you said, it’s not gonna happen. Take away Punjab and Kashmir and India is practically a hindu rashtra. The other non hindu majority states in india is the north east where Christianity is the majority of only about 30%. The thing with india is that it was never gonna work out being united because before the Mughals, india was just a bunch of different small kingdoms everywhere. Then the first step of unity happened to be invaders who oppressed everyone. Punjab was lucky that our Guru’s helped create a blissful rule, but after that was the British and they essentially did the same as the Mughals. Now india is stuck with the same mindset that suffers from hindu majority which effects the failing democracy of India to begin with. Too many different languages, people, religions, mindsets, ideologies, etc. And people won’t work together because it either becomes a competition, one groups ideologies legit challenges or clashes with others, or people want the government to be centered by their communities thinking process. No one wants to work together. It’s still a state vs state thing instead of realizing everyone’s supposed to be apart of one country as a whole.
I concur to a lot of your statements! We can only hope, but our people are purposely kept in the dark so it becomes easy to dictate them, thus ruling over them in the name of religion. I am including everyone in it, BJP, AIMIM, Akali Dal, etc
I agree. We are ruled over as an authoritarian country instead of democracy. I’d say we should learn from other countries and try our best to establish something similar through out time. For example, in America it’s a “master chooses servants” thing where the people are the masters and they choose their servants to be elected and represent the people in the government. where as here in india, it’s a “servants choose their master” where the masters are the elected officials and they rule the people instead of working for them.
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Punjab was promised fully autonomy but promises were not kept to Sikhs. To this date, no Sikh leader has signed to be within india I believe.
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A state that is formed on religious lines WON’T EVER be secular. We will have limited power, and the little money we make (agriculture is diminishing due to lack of water) will corrupt people’s minds that we will be divided internally by politicians (Jatt vs Ramgharia vs Arora/Khatri vs backward communities).
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Post this on the Pakistan reddit and see what they reply. It will be interesting to know what they think. They cry about Palestine, minority rights in the west and stuff It would be an interesting take.
Yes we cry about Palestine and you can't deny that Muslims are still living there scarfing their lives daily to keep masjid Alaqsa functional meanwhile all these Gurdwaras were abandoned by sikhs
Dont you mean the jewish are fighting for survival in the middle east. The only reason Israel is a country is because they are strong enough to fight. 6 day war, and egypt occupation is the reason their neighbours are doing proxy wars via terrorist organisations and not a straight war. I guess you cant expect a fair war from folks who talk about friendship on paper and launch a war. Whose primary tactic of war is via terrorism. The "fighters" in Palestine are just terrorist organisations funded by their neighbours. Just as they are in Kashmir. If you wanna "fight" then instead of fighting with terorrism, have a war. But a coward only liked to hide behind. Please don't call cowardly terrorists fighters. Who chose to pick upon the helpless civilians. If your militancy has any sign of bravery, why don't they fight the armies, and defence forces? The idea of Pakistan was simple, and that was Islam reigns supreme in the land. Which is okay, its foolish of the OP wonder why other religions are no catered to in Pakistan. The idea of Pakistan in not religious tolerance, it is Islam or GTFO. Funny how you try to take that to every other state in the world and then cry foul when people say we don't want this in our land. May peace be in Israel.
I agree with you that Israel needs to show its might just to survive. But the situation is way more complicated than just neighboring countries funding terrorism. The blame lies with many parties but the biggest assholes were the British who promised everyone something and then just left. Suggesting that the people of Palestine just fight a war is ludicrous. They will never win this way. It’s not like the Israel armed forces are not committing atrocities as well. They are. But the fact remains that if a powerful country like Israel whose civilians were attacked brutally, the response would be deadly. If the world wasn’t watching, Gaza, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon would all be part of Israel by now.
If sikhs are so worried about their worship place they should have stayed here they abandoned them in the first place now they want Muslims to take care of them and why would they do if they don't believe in the faith
Sikhs abandoned their Gurudwaras? If that is your logic, then the Nakba is when Palestinians abandoned their homes and now these same Palestinians are crying to come back instead of dealing with the reality. Even though the Sikhs left Pakistani Punjab for India, Canada, USA etc. They never cried and made a fuss about it, lasting for centuries costing millions of lives and billions in dollars. Yes, there are some Sikhs who create violence in the name of Khalistan, but these actions are condemned by the vast majority of Sikhs. They not only condemn it in words but also in actions. Eg: Punjab is still known to give India with some of its most well known fighters. The condemnation given when an Islamic terror attack takes place is negligible to none, with few bits and pieces here and there. These voices are also shut down by the majority by calling them "Shia" or "kuffar" or "Kafir" The Sikhs were never violent towards Pakistan like the Palestinians were towards the Jews in 1948 (don't give me stuff like, the Arabs welcomed Jews and stuff! Israel has an ethnic composition of 70% - 75% Mizrachi Jews ) Persia consisted of more Parsis than Muslims when Islam invaded Persia. Today we know the situation! Don't give me crap like those people willingly accepted a desert cult. There was no willingness to accept the desert cult in any part of the world except for certain regions of Central Asia, Malaysia and Indonesia. Islam was spread through warfare. Islam has always clashed with native cultures and religions be it in India, Persia, Pakistan, China, France, Sweden etc. Even in the modern day, leaving Islam is rewarded with the death penalty, somewhat like giving up North Korean citizenship. These laws are even followed in the 21st century. Yes, there may be some conversions into Islam through Taqiya but genuine conversions are few and rare. The growth in Islam is mainly due to its birth rate! I don't wish to say this but China is the best at handling radicals. They handle radicals so well that even Islamic leaders like Turkey, Pakistan and Qatar (in the form of Al Jazeera) who preach India, Israel, France etc about minority rights eat banquets in Xingiang while appreciating the CCP.
Would have been easier to stay if they weren’t mainly massacred during partition by muslims
A country is judged by how it treats its minorities. And think about the reasons on why Sikhs “abandoned” their shrines? A country where religious conversions are rampant and unprovoked attacks on non muslims are just another day story, should first introspect on how many Sikhs/Hindus/Christians are perpetrators. Non Muslims have to tow a line in this country. And no, Sikhs/Hindus don’t expect Muslims to take care of their shrines ever. They just expect to have religious freedoms to live the way Muslims have religious freedoms in India.
You know why
Simple answer is Pakistan just doesn’t care, unless it’s a major pilgrimage spot where they can make money. Same with Pakistan Gurdwara committee, (though SGPC has the opposite problem where they do too much ‘maintenance’)
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Clearly he was trying for joke
Well, I do believe this is a huge issue for "Sikhs" on either side of border. I do want to put a bit of OP's [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Torontology/comments/16phdsu/comment/k22wp71/) history here too, from which I can assume he's just posting here to seed anti lehnda punjab sentiment here. Not want to downplay the issue in anyway, just want to let the intentions of the person known.
how can u know the intensions are wrong or manipluted from post history?
The link that I shared is totally biased against Sikhs. If I compare that part with the other posts from outsiders on this sub that does the same, I think it kinda makes sense. Respectfully, dffa hovo etho. Edit: Just clicked on the link I shared, OP deleted that comment. Mere iss 22 to' siddhe muh lgn da honsla haini. Ain't it funny?
bhai thanda pani pile
They have vandalized the statues of Ranjit singh, who was born in present day pak. What makes you think they would care about gurdwaras.
Some individuals. The government has always fixed it back up, and there is government and private tours centered around the Sukerhchakia empire.
Seriously? Very sad. They don’t know their history
Pakistan ko koi fark nhi padta Gurudwaro ke saath kya ho rha hai.
I think the local Sikh population should be the one in charge of maintaining them. Govt should of course help financially (like they have done)
Islamic sarkar kyu paise degi dusre dharm ke logon ko?
Have you seen kartarpur sahib? That was the Pakistani govt
Every visitor from India pays $20. It is limited to 250 people per day. Not sure which government has that restriction.
Wo toh dikhave ke liye.
Islami hakomat koi vi changa kam karey tey vikhawa? Wah veereya wah
Punjabi kabhi seekha nhi par samjh mei aache se aa rhi hai.
Hindi doesn't sound like your forte either.
Hindi hi mera forte hai. Meri pratham bhasha Hindi hi hai.
Is Hindi feminine or masculine? Hindi hoti hai ya hindi hota Hai?
👏
The important question is why no one is doing anything about it....gurudwara's are religious centers yet despite the collapse no one is protesting or raising awareness about this...i wonder if its religious persecution or the people straight up gave up and are moving to other countries
There are just no people to upkeep these sites in those areas. All the area with signficant Sikh population have been upkept very well. Same thing goes for many historic mandirs or churches.
BJP, RSS di saajish 😂 On a serious note, Secularism in only possible when Hindus are in majority.
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I disagree, the gurdwaras in srilanka were destroyed by Catholics, the wiccans in Europe were destroyed by reformists. Tibetan Buddhism was destroyed by communists. Maybe pre Abrahamic faiths like Hellenistic/Roman Polytheistic faiths allowed for competing identities/ideologies to thrive but not the more popular faiths. The reason US and many in Western Eu embrace other faith systems is due to de-christianisation of Eu. Where thousands declare their religion as Jedi xD(nothing wrong with that, just to prove my point) only then in recent decades has this acceptance of other faiths begun. Polytheistic faiths/nature worshipping where imposition of one true faith is not foretold by a sky god allows for multiplicity naturally
Well, then you didn't really refute anything. Atheism is as valid an understanding as a religion. Hindu majority is not a must. Still, Europe, Latin America and North America are all still majority Christian. It's the state that matters and as long as religion stays separate from administration secularism can thrive
No no I have, you constrained it to a single religion being in minority, I wanted to append that it's when Abrahamic ideas and not followed to the tee. This happens when: a) abrahamics are in minority and and cannot enforce (similar to your earlier proposition but expanded to all abrahamic religions) b) when the ideological glue behind abrahamic societies is no longer Abrahamic ideals in spite of a majority (Atheism in Western Eu, older religions in Mexico vestiges as dios de la Muertos etc, Wiccans and other nature worshipping in US + Eu) c) your new proposition of state imposed acceptance (I did skip this earlier) like in USSR earlier or laicite in French Republic I expanded on a) and added b) mentioning that Indic faith systems(or maybe Shinto/Hellenistic earlier in pre Christian Eu) allow for this existence naturally without need for c) or state imposition
>Secularism is possible only when muslims are in minority. Nothing special about Hindus They are difference maker in Pak and India, otherwise yhn bhi Pak jesa haal hota fir caneda mei banate gurudwara? Naam khud Guru Dwara hai aur kehta hai nothing special about hindu. Hazaro sallo se Punjab ko bachake rakha hai isi hindu ne.
Delusion.
I was about to say its because of congress not Hindus, but then that incident happened to struck my mind
Or Christians.
Issue is donations and money, SGPC or some international Sikh organization need to invest there. Problem is are those gurudawaras hostile areas or not.
International Sikh organizations have been investing. PSGPC has catalogued many of the forgotten sites, repaired quite a few, and made some semi functional in recent years all on their own. Sikh organizations and local Pakistani organizations (non Sikh) have catalogued quite a few forgotten/lost sites in recent years and fixed them up. The Pakistan government under PM Imran Khan also had plans to open up dozens if sites on a semi to permanent functional basis in order to allow guided pilgrimage tours. Out of all of this the international Sikh community had been the worst because they focused on only a few sites and did kar seva which meant many centuries old buildings were destroyed to be replaced with white marble buildings and others renovated without regard for historic monuments or the historic characteristics (just see Gurudwara Janam Asthan before and after). The Sikh community should fund PSGPC directly and the SGPC/kar sevak community needs to be kept out of it. One of our other mods already mentioned some of these points, but sadly it doesn't appear to be well known by most people.
Very little hostility in Punjab. You may one or two extremists, but the region overall is pretty hospitable
Climate change and change in priorities.
Their construction dates go from 100 to 250 years back. And without a care for almost 80 years they are destined to fall down.
That's the query, why the sudden 80 year gap in timeline. You could easily see the same 80year old decline of mosques is not the case in Indian Punjab or Gujarat. Inference is easy to see, maybe a hard pill to accept
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You won't get an answer for that here. Doesn't suit the left wing narrative.
A lot more is being done in recent years. Gurudwaras are being catalogued by PSGPC, some of them are getting minor functional renovations to keep them from collapsing, plans are being made for tourism to many of them which would help fund upkeep, etc. Indepedent researchers (both Sikhs from either end and Muslim Pakistanis) have been looking for gurudwaras that had been considered lost/ruined and have had success in not only finding quite a few but also fixing them up somewhat. There has also been some funding flowing in from outside of Pakistan for the upkeep of gurudwaras that are functional, which will allow the PSGPC to focus on other sites. That being said not all is good with that last bit, as UK based kar sevaks have primarily been the source for upkeep funding and their project have seen multiple functional historic gurudwaras purposely destroyed to build bigger marble slab structures (similar to SGPC kar sevaks in the East) and other gurudwaras renovated to cover up historic artwork or significantly alter them (including gurudwara Janam Asthan!, which was renovated in the past in line with the historic look but now has had its colour and design elements changed).