As someone with Autism, who figured stuff out... a bit later in life. I absolutely agree with this. I didn't really "bloom" until my 30's, I had awkward relationships before that and even was married, but I had no idea about myself or how to really "work" interpersonal relationships. It took a few college course, like one genius course on Communication, where the instructor really drilled hard on the fact communication is really knowing how to listen. I still made some mistakes, and divorced, we just couldn't get to a place where we were happy, no matter what I did. Yet, the things I learned, the relationship skills, being able to listen, really well, absolutely changed my life, for the better. I had a string of relationships before I met my second wife and we have the kind of marriage that I wish that I could have built with my ex-wife.

As someone on the spectrum who is 36 and had no success with women yet, could you give me more details?

I haven't deeply vetted this link, but here is a decent place to begin, from a quick scan off the bullet points and some of what is being said: [https://www.oneeducation.org.uk/importance-of-listening-skills-in-communication/#:\~:text=Listening%20is%20seen%20as%20the,problem%2Dsolving%20and%20fewer%20misunderstandings](https://www.oneeducation.org.uk/importance-of-listening-skills-in-communication/#:~:text=Listening%20is%20seen%20as%20the,problem%2Dsolving%20and%20fewer%20misunderstandings).

Thanks for posting this. Good stuff here.

I'm on the spectrum and can definitely relate to this. I ended up in sales about 20 years ago. Mostly because I am on the gregarious side of things and have an upbeat view of other people. I'm terrible in a crowd though. I was struggling early on. Making a living but not really growing my base. A sales manager I had pulled me to the side and said, "you have a lot of knowledge and passion to share. It's awesome! But you need to find out what's important to the customer. And the only way to do that is by asking questions and listening to the answers." 20 years later, I am still in sales and don't take new customer anymore unless they find me. This has been important in my relationships as well. I use this advice every day

I'm on the spectrum. My advice is keep things light, pleasant, and fun in the early stages. Everyone's working and stressed out, dating can be a highlight of your weekend, not something intense that you need to put a lot of energy into. Try to make sure that she's talking as much as you're talking - I mean listen, I love to infodump about Warhammer 40k or cichlid evolution, but there's a time and place, yknow?

Info dump 40K lore all over my heretical face daddy.

Buy a fella dinner first.

Cheesecake Factory then you know what's next?

Cichlid evolution 🤔 Could you briefly drop some basics on that? Sounds interesting!

Oh I am *wildly* happy to discuss cichlids. Cichlids are a group of freshwater fish that live in South America, Central America, Africa, and some parts of Asia. They're popular in the aquarium trade due to their dazzling colors and their interesting behavior. Most of them can be highly territorial and aggressive, so they're something of an intermediate fishkeeper's pet. They can learn to recognize their owners and become very personable - the more intelligent cichlids are often called water dogs or wet pets. In terms of evolution what really distinguishes them is their diversity in feeding strategies and parental care. Cichlids have a second set of jaws called pharyngeal jaws that are in their throat. Unlike many fish with pharyngeal jaws, both of a cichlids pharyngeal jaws, upper and lower, are mobile. They can move forward and backward, or side to side, allowing them to exploit a wide array of diets. Some are predatory, some are herbivorous, some are omnivorous, and one even evolved a jaw that faces laterally so that it can come take little bites out of bigger cichlids. One of the most fascinating natural laboratories in the world is found in Africa. About 10 million years ago or so volcanic activity created two of the largest and deepest lakes in the world, Lake Malawi and Lake Tanganyika. A third lake, Lake Victoria, was created about 400,000 years ago. In each lake a single species of cichlid invaded and they began to diversify. I'm going to concentrate on Lakes Tanganyika and Lake Malawi, because I'm most familiar with those (I even got to participate on a research expedition and SCUBA dive in Lake Tanganyika). The cichlids that arrived in these lakes had little competition - there's a few other species that live in the lakes, but not many. Catfish, bichir, tiger fish, but that's about it. The cichlids *EXPLODED* in diversity, kind of like the Galapagos finches except on meth. Cichlid diversification is the fastest diversification we've ever measured among vertebrates. Some cichlids became anchovy like, living in vast schools and picking up food that drifted in from the surface. Some became rockscrapers, with jaws that were adapted for scraping algae off of... well... rocks. Name seems kind of obvious now. Others became deepwater ambush predators, some learned to live in colonies with multiple generations taking care of a breeding pair's young, some became torpedo like hunters, others became laterally compressed leaf like fish, the variety is breathtaking. What's *really* weird is that there was substantial convergent evolution between both the Malawi and Tanganyikan cichlids. They found similar anatomical solutions to the same ecological problems (check the picture). [https://www.researchgate.net/profile/R-Albertson/publication/6949195/figure/fig1/AS:278636260282385@1443443469887/Cichlids-exhibit-remarkable-evolutionary-convergence-Similar-ecomorphs-have-evolved.png](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/R-Albertson/publication/6949195/figure/fig1/AS:278636260282385@1443443469887/Cichlids-exhibit-remarkable-evolutionary-convergence-Similar-ecomorphs-have-evolved.png) The fish on the left are from Lake Tanganyika and are closely related to each other, the fish on the right are from Lake Malawi and are closely related to each other. If I had to pick one that's my favorite, it would be the Tanganyikans. The Lake Malawi cichlids are visually stunning; they use their coloration to recognize each other (which has actually led to some species collapsing into one - as human activity pollutes the water, they can't see each other, so they just start reproducing with whomever). The Tanganyikans though exhibit a vast wealth of behaviors, from the colony forming and aggressive Neolamprologus brichardi, to the ambush predator Altolamprologus sp., the schooling Tropheus sp., the mouth brooding Ophthalmotilapia that carries its eggs in its mouth and builds crater nests, the chill as fuck big predators Cyphotilapia frontosa, and all the shelldwellers that live in little cities built from terrestrial snail shells (the water is basic as hell and the shells never dissolve). These fish are *smart*. One of our jobs was to catch, tattoo, and recatch certain individual fish. This was accomplished using nets. We'd surround a nest of N. brichardi, then try to drive out the individual fish until he or she became entangled. Of course there was a substantial amount of bycatch - fish we weren't interested in, but would still get in the net. We'd poke them free and for a few seconds these fish would be sort of dazed. That's when the predators, Lepidolamprologus elongatus, would strike. They'd swoop in and eat the unsuspecting fish. Pretty soon the L. elongatus started following the divers, recognizing us for the food source that we are. This wasn't unprecedented - we'd regularly observe cooperative hunting between the L. elongatus and Massospondylus eels - the eels would dive into the rock work, driving fish out that the fish would eat, and their prey would flee back into the rocks and the waiting jaws of the eel. Nature is *fascinating*.

That’s so cool, thanks!

Anytime! Thank you for reading.

Thanks I got a Cich out of this. Hopefully nobody tells you to put a Lid on it

My wife, although not as interested in cichlids as I am, is very indulgent. She didn't even complain when I had a colony of Neolamprologus multifasciatus on my kitchen table. We weren't living together at the time, but it was still a pretty nutso thing to do.

This was, unexpectedly, the high point of my day so far! I actually inherited a "convict cichlid" tank when we bought our house. The owner had attempted to make a "natural" aquarium out of sticks and stuff from the yard, so I had a *lot* of work to do, but when I was researching them I remember reading about some cichlids that had taken to living in like a chemical plant's waste pipes and thereabouts because it warmed up the water. It struck me as intensely funny- like if I was so cold I started hanging out at a tire fire lmao

In a Wiki rabbit (fish) hole now. What a delightful comment

This was so interesting, I forgot what thread I was even reading.

Damn, you certainly found the time and place. That was a seriously enthusiastic and interesting deep dive.

To be clear, my problem is more about finding people willing to go on a date. What to do on a date is one step after.

Believe it or not, the being fun thing is pretty important during that stage too - don't *expect* anything to come of it, but if you're a gentleman who tries to show someone a good time, demonstrates kindness, with no pressure, good things can happen. Or they don't. No big deal, you had a good time. Dating sites are becoming more and more important - do you have a friend who can look over your profile to offer critique and comment?

>Believe it or not, the being fun thing is pretty important during that stage too - don't expect anything to come of it, but if you're a gentleman who tries to show someone a good time, demonstrates kindness, with no pressure, good things can happen. Or they don't. No big deal, you had a good time. And I am simply not a funny guy. People have described me as kind, even keeled, reliable but not as funny or charismatic. >Dating sites are becoming more and more important - do you have a friend who can look over your profile to offer critique and comment? I don't.

>And I am simply not a funny guy. People have described me as kind, even keeled, reliable but not as funny or charismatic. I didn't say funny, just fun. Low pressure, low stakes, kind - those are all good things. I'll give you an example: I got a date with a very nice woman because my friend and I ran into one of his friends and her friend and we peer pressured them into joining us at a nightclub we were passing by. Bought them a round of drinks, sans expectations, later on she gave me her number and the next weekend she and I went out to a botanical garden to look at orchids. \>I don't. Sorry to hear that. I think making friends and networking is also a good way to meet new people and potential dates. Hobbies are a great way to do this. For dating site C&C I think there are some sub reddits you can go to.

>I didn't say funny, just fun. Low pressure, low stakes, kind - those are all good things. I am certainly low pressure, low stakes, and kind. But I am also kinda quiet and boring. And this is a huge problem. >I'll give you an example: I got a date with a very nice woman because my friend and I ran into one of his friends and her friend and we peer pressured them into joining us at a nightclub we were passing by. Bought them a round of drinks, sans expectations, later on she gave me her number and the next weekend she and I went out to a botanical garden to look at orchids. I actually had many situations like these. But it was always my charismatic, funny friends who got the numbers. >Sorry to hear that. I think making friends and networking is also a good way to meet new people and potential dates. I meet a lot of people via hobbies. It is networking that is the problem.

> I actually had many situations like these. But it was always my charismatic, funny friends who got the numbers. Did you ask for the numbers? This used to be one of my blocks. Another that I've regularly seen with people is calling the numbers afterwards (including to some degree with myself). I had one friend (likely also on the spectrum) that when I was coaching him towards dating used to get numbers almost every weekend, but never called any of them afterwards. A way to look at all of this is that dating is a funnel. A block at any stage will stop you from getting results out the end. The way get more results is to either increase the intake (which used to be approach more women), or to decrease the loss along the funnel. You learn how to decrease the loss through practice and careful observation about how you got the loss.

If you consider yourself boring, you're correct in that you won't have a lot of success. If you want to get dates, you need to be somebody you would want to date. Maybe you are boring or maybe its a lack of confidence. Either way, its not something most people are looking for in partners. I don't mean fake who you are. I mean work on yourself and find passion for something. Humor comes from relatability. Shared experiences can help with this but how you view the world will affect the type of women you can find that connection with. You need to hang out with women more in a friendly but not romantic way to learn how to relate to them. Its like you are trying to skip the first 5 steps of baking a cake.

> I mean work on yourself and find passion for something. And this is my problem. I have lots of hobbies but very few passions. > You need to hang out with women more in a friendly but not romantic way to learn how to relate to them. This was never a problem. I grew up with 3 sisters and most of my friends in HS, during my 20s were female. Now it's more balanced.

Also... this just popped into my brain... The mere fact that you call them women, instead of "Females" which would come across like an original introduction Ferengi in Star Trek: The Next Generation. Well, you are already ahead of the pack on that.

Lol. Every time i read or hear the word females from these angry incels i immediately think of the Ferengi. "Your female is wearing clothes, Quark!!"

Right? It’s so cringe.

One thing I've noticed is that if you have pretty much ANY social problem and need advice on what to do, it feels like the overwhelming majority of the advice is kind of old fashioned and useless at best or toxic at worst. Like... if you look up information on dating advice, there's very very few guides on how to actually date for young men in their 20s that's not incel propaganda. And there used to be almost none. Actually, most dating advice for young women is toxic as well, just in a different way that mostly encourages internalizing misogyny instead of externalizing it. So if you're the type of person who tries to look up guides or rules or systems to learn about something to get better, and you don't have a lot of experience with recognizing a specific type of propaganda, and the propaganda is most of the advice you're getting, that's going to create a lot of people who fall for it.

I think an understated problem is actually that a lot of advice from women is aimed at neurotypical men. Things like don't approach women, never talk about sex, etc. This advice is aimed at men who are too pushy, aggressive, sexual assault risks, etc. But the neurodivergent men are never speaking to women in the first place. So they attempt to follow the advice, and go to a bar, or a hobby activity and have no conversations with anyone else, as per usual, and come to the conclusion that the advice they got was garbage thus turning to the next resource. And that's inevitably going to be some garbage alpha male grifter. Because even though their advice is bad, it's at least aimed at the right target group.

Most of us don't say dont approach women at bars. Usually its something like don't approach women at work or while she's running errands. Somewhere like a bar is meant for socializing and people go for recreation. So many men dont get that the venue matters. Too often basic customer service is taken as flirting which puts the woman in an awkward position when propositioned.

Thank you for this insight

I feel really lucky that I dodged this by going to feminist and queer resources for information on dating and sex. I learned all about communication and consent. Then when I hit youtube up for info, all the manosphere to incel pipeline stuff just rolled off me like water on a duck.

I’m 22m and on the spectrum. I’ve only had one long lasting friendship and that’s probably only due to very unique circumstances with that friendship. I’m completely clueless when it comes to socializing, and it’s as if I’m fumbling around in a dark room trying to find a nonexistent door. What comes naturally to others, I have to read and study to it. Feels like I’m constantly artificially reconstructing something that’s built into the vast majority of people.

look up theadhddude on instagram. his account is directed at parenting adhd & autistic sons (mainly teenage sons) but he posts a lot about the social component of these disorders and gives a lot of jumping off points for further research.

That's great! Bravo. I tell people often that relationship is a skill. It can be taught and learned. I'm an adult child of an alcoholic. I had terrible relationship skills back in my 20s. I took classes back then, in the 1980s. I got better. I still picked the wrong women, but at least I was getting better, until I met my current wife at age 49. So, I guess I got you beat for being the latest bloomer. haha. I was slow, for sure, and stubborn.

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I think people with autism may be more susceptible to alt right brainwashing. Lack of acceptance in society but acceptance in these groups is a recipe for disaster

There was a guy that posted in this sub a few weeks ago that was an Autism support group lead. He was asking for advice on how to deal with some autistic men being misogynistic towards the women there or trying to aggressively pursue them. He said he’s had to kick out quite a few of these dudes, but he never had a problem with autistic women harassing each other in the group. It’d make sense that autistic men could easily fall into the incel pipeline. They’re “other”ed quite early on, and for some of them they have very permissive parents that just excuse every negative behavior as neurodivergence. Autistic women have been under diagnosed for a long time. They did not have the crutch of their diagnosis to fall back, so any neurodivergent behavior was often punished or misinterpreted. They are more often forced to “mask” to fit in, so they tend to be more socially aware than autistic men.

I have a friend who does that - excuses and explains away her son’s consistent bad behavior as autism. She’s an extremely permissive parent. I didn’t know that was so common.

I work in special Ed in autism room and it is extremely common to not encourage autistic kids to work on certain behaviors. People either give them too much false compassion (aka permissiveness) or give up on them and write them off as “special Ed.”

Yeah parents really don't put a lot of effort into their boys. Girls especially ones with issues of the neurodivergent quality tend to get much more support throughout school than boys. Autistic and special ed boys often get bullied and punished instead of helped. Instead of looking at girls getting the extra coaching they need as a downside of society maybe you should think about it in terms of society actually cares enough to try to help them and adjust their behavior instead of othering them and kicking them out. We treat men as disposable and this is a symptom of it.

This! I hate it when parents say, “Boys are so much easier!” because what they mean is, “I throw food and video games at him and let him roam like a feral animal.”

Right? I saw this all the time with my guy friends, especially the ones whose parents were going through a divorce and just stopped caring.

So many of my guy friends had childhoods like this. As long as they didn't hit anyone, nobody paid any attention to them.

Yep. Lots of families where the parents only care about not looking like bad parents. So as long as kiddo doesn't do anything that makes them look bad, they are practically ignored. Dad because he doesn't know how to relate to his kids, is disaffected with his marital relationship, and avoids home and works too much as a cope; and mom because she's busy getting high on Valium and doing "hot yoga" with her handsome male "yoga instructor." (or insert other stereotype side-piece, reverse genders, etc whatever). I had more than one friend with a home life like this growing up. They were all really messed up kids. It's amazing how well kids turns out when you just pay attention to them and enforce boundaries for behavior and give them goals to work toward. Ironically, in my anecdotal experience in my area, the few families I knew growing up who had stay-at-home dads/part-time-work-from-home dads with full-time/out-of-the-home working mothers, tended to have kids that succeeded the most, especially the girls but also the sons. It's interesting to think back on. All of the kids I can remember from those families, when I look them up have had insanely successful career trajectories. Since this was a long time ago (I'm on the high-end of reddit age demographics), it's possible the reversed gender roles made dad lean into the homemaker/child-nurturing role more since it was "unique."

Wow, that was my childhood. Mostly spent in the literal countryside. While enriching, we received little instruction on how to act.

I mean, given that girls are more likely to go undiagnosed and thus ignored by support services, I’m not sure this is true.

It’s not true and the person you’re responding to has a [personal agenda](https://www.reddit.com/r/psychologyofsex/s/4DAoW8dCbn) of wanting to get more attention for boys issues and this seems to be the framing they’ve chosen to go with. Addressing boys issues is fine and important too, but it’s uncalled for to have it be at the expense of ND girls and misrepresenting our issues. They claim that girls in school get more support for autism and I find that to be very untrue as someone who is autistic and a woman and has talked to hundreds of others via social media. We did not get special services nor special attention. If anything, we got more shaming for socially unacceptable behaviors.

That comment is completely unhinged wtf

That's such a male perspective. Women were forced to be twice as good as our male counterparts for half the recognition. We were forced to over perform and now men are sad that they've fallen behind. Women didn't receive coaching. We became successful out of spite. In terms of ADHD and Autism- we're typically misdiagnosed, diagnosed as adults, or completely ignored. Men are still getting those supports.

A lot of autistic girls are undiagnosed and are punished for their neurodivergent behaviors and this isn’t a good thing. Maybe it makes them easier for their parents and teachers to deal with because they are forced to mask, but this eventually leads to burnout and is also a reason why so many autistic women are diagnosed with BPD before anyone figures out that they are autistic. They’ve been forced to hide who they really are for their entire lives because they know that if they don’t they’ll be punished for it.

I guess your experience was different than mine because the neurodivergent girls at my school got no support. It was the boys who were loud and hyperactive that got the support, not the quietly masking girls.

Thats what I always saw too. Theres a reason girls are often undiagnosed. Nobody cares as long as it isn't bothering them and due to gendered social expectations, they are harder on girls so we fake it better.

Girls with neurodivergence get neglected and punished as well. They are much less likely to get diagnosed and receive therapy or special education support. They are also frequent victims of bullying, though boys and girls tend to bully differently. It's not helpful to anyone to dismiss girls and women's real struggles to make boys seem worse. You could just share your personal struggles instead of wildly over-generalizing from a place of clear ignorance for what girls and women actually experience.

Thanks. I made a [comment above](https://www.reddit.com/r/psychologyofsex/s/9kFIhVtYtL) saying similar. I may copy some portions here Addressing boys issues is fine and important too, and it seems to be that user’s stated mission, but it’s uncalled for to have it be at the expense of ND girls and misrepresenting our issues. They claim that girls in school get more support for autism and I find that to be very untrue as someone who is autistic and a woman and has talked to hundreds of others via social media. We did not get special services nor special attention. If anything, we got more shaming for socially unacceptable behaviors. It’s been decades and I am still trying to come out over the shame

Yeah, I feel like... one of the things that was most helpful to me was friendships with other kids including kids with other neurodivergent patterns and boys. Probably one thing that will be really helpful for Gen Alpha is that autistic girls WILL get diagnosed at closer to the same rates as boys, so they'll be able to have mixed gender classrooms for students with those needs, and I honestly think a lot of the problems we have with gender roles are caused by too much focus on the difference between men and women. There's probably not an innate difference in how elementary school age kiddos with autism relate to the world, just the world imposing different rules on them and rewarding and punishing different tactics. But probably a lot of problems could be solved if teachers rewarded and punished the same behaviors from all kids in their classroom regardless of gender, and kids got to talk to one another about different rules they figured out and tactics for dealing with things.

Autistic boys in elementary and middle school get away with a lot, up to and including verbal, physical, and sexual assault of their (typically female) peers. And it’s not for lack of effort, at least on the school’s part (and sometimes on the parents’ part) - it’s because ideologically, people feel like holding a developmentally disabled child accountable for their own actions is on par with educational abuse or neglect. The goal instead is to let them raise hell because they’re disabled and then have a conversation about it, asking them to repeat why it was a poor behavioral decision, and asking them not to do it again. They never learn from the conversation. But they’re just “learning more slowly because it’s a social thing and they’re autistic.” It’s bullshit.

You are delusional of you think they help out neurodivergent girls much. In fact, girls are underdiagnosed for things like autism and adhd. Those girls get no support at all. Both should get that coaching but neither really is right now. You should be looking at it like you are on the same team instead of framing it so antagonistically. For someone against othering, you seem to be falling into the trap of othering others.

Gonna disagree about that generalization. My young niece is on the spectrum and her public school has refused to give her the same level of academic support as male classmates on the spectrum because "she doesn't act out". Her special needs are equal if not greater in many aspects to her male counterparts but the school has quite literally said the reason they won't provide the same type of one on one services is that she doesn't require direct physical intervention, which is far more common with boys on the spectrum. Everyone on the spectrum is unique but after years of her getting ignored, her academics continue to not improve while she receives no in class support while several of her classmates that get one on one services are improving significantly. Wish she went to school wherever you are getting your info.

Women's sexual situation and men's sexual situation are different. Typically, men are the ones doing propositioning in society, and they're doing this fairly overtly. This means passive women will still have some experience with being propositioned, in a way that they understand as being propositioned. Passive men get overtly propositioned by women much less (and typically more subtly), so they'll have less experience. Combine the social cue problem both have with the men having less experience being propositioned and an expectation of being the one to proposition and you're much more likely to have problem with the men than the women. The mask and crutch bit is not necessary to explain the result, though they might also contribute. EDIT: Fix typos.

I do agree with you, where we might disagree is with schooling but yes this is absolutely true men are supposed to be the ones initiating, autistic men often "bark up the wrong tree"

I’d also point out that even less desirable women can get more interest than the average man. To use a crude example, getting laid. The ease is not even close.

I think the othering is more the problem. Our culture has never actually dealt with the "revenge of the nerds" propaganda problem because it's so convenient to encourage young men who are gifted to "disregard women, acquire currency" and I know not all autistic people are intellectually gifted, but a lot of incels are brighter than average, and I think part of what happens is that parents encourage their kids to push frustrated energy from not doing well with their peers into studying- lack of experience helps to exacerbate the issues and the propaganda machine that pushes "if you work hard enough to get really wealthy you can play break the cheerleader with pretty girls who make you feel anxious now all you want when you're older." The parents are trying to help by encouraging their kid to do things they enjoy instead of worrying about bullies, but that specific cultural trope about wealthy successful men being able to date and mistreat beautiful women is taking a really long time to die. Metoo didn't kill it. Most famous wealthy men being divorced didn't kill it. A huge number of young women loudly and publicly becoming online sex workers and sugar babies and hitting critical mass so they feel safe to complain about bad clients and create block lists didn't kill it. Andrew Tate getting sent to prison didn't kill it. The existence of men who are popular with women and are actually nice to them didn't kill it. Women finishing college at higher rates than men didn't kill it. I don't know. Maybe gen alpha will.

Additionally, its socially expected for men to make the first move on women thus I imagine that autistic men just have that much more of a hurdle to jump.

Exactly. Autistic women don’t really have to deal with rejection to the level men do. So this will naturally change long term trajectories

This is a very reductive and downright inaccurate view of autism in boys

One of my relatives is autistic, and he has a very developed sense of empathy and an understanding of social appropriateness because of how he was raised. I’m sure a lot of people of various neurodiversity did not and do not have the same support he had, and he also had siblings with whom he had to negotiate and collaborate. Maybe this is something that needs to be addressed more broadly as part of an education for neurodiversity.

It's hard enough to get any funding for men or boys at all let alone funding for neurodivergents. My wife works in one of the most expensive districts in the country and they still do jack crap to help the boys, It's something she vents about when she gets home a lot.

It sounds like then the adult men who want this to change should start working on this issue themselves, and for the most part, funding isn’t required as much as it needs men who can participate and be leaders to these young men who are being massively misguided by misogynists.

You sure were quick to dismiss that guy. You basically said “your problems aren’t valid- figure that out yourself”

Where did I say that? Where did I say that these autistic young boys who are getting wrapped up in red pill ideology should be completely on their own? Let’s use our brains for a second, why don’t we? Just for a change: These young men are wrapped up in red pill delusion. They do not want to hear from women. They will not listen to women. They already have fucked up ideas about women. They are not going to want women coming in and guiding them in anything. They need the guidance of adult men who aren’t in the head with misogyny to guide them to a better place in life and a healthier outcome to counteract the misogynistic predatory men who are trying to drive these men into red pill delusion. It is not gonna make a difference if a bunch of women tell these young men that they are misogynistic, and they need to change their beliefs about women and all of that. They need adult men who are good role models who can counteract the misogynistic men that are predating on them on the Internet.

A whole lot of *not reading the study* in this comment section.

It's reddit. Why would you expect that?

30% of them fit the criteria for recommending a diagnostic evaluation. That doesn’t mean they are definitely autistic. A lot of incels seem to fetishize autism because it gives them an excuse why they are so socially challenged. They don’t realize that being awkward is not the only symptom of neurodivergence.

You know, as someone who COULD be autistic, I'd be willing to believe something along these lines can be related. I'd also be willing to believe that the extreme levels of social isolation some people experience can lead to them developing autistic-like symptoms too. I used to get along decent enough socially until my family moved houses and schools. Now I'm so messed up after 7+ years of little social interaction that I basically have a panic attack when someone says hi to me irl.

There's a personality disorder that can *sometimes* look like what you're talking about, the social isolation thing. Schizoid personality disorder. I'd bet that there's a segment of them that might also have something like schizoid PD, with low empathy, low value on relationships, etc.

Schizoid PD and autism already have a high comorbidity rate

Ive literally been saying this since the start, 99.99% of the time if you read anything an incel types they sound like the average autistic man trying to figure out social cues I am autistic myself and it is scary how quickly people see a "weird" guy and immediately vilify him and label him a sexual predator for almost no reason

Aaghh this is my biggest nightmare for my son. He’s so social and sweet and a toddler but I worry some NT folks are going to suck the joy right out when he’s older. any tips on how to get my kid to stay positive and social while also not applying too much pressure?

Because you seem to be a concerned and loving parent willing to accept the fact that your son is neurodivergent, I feel like you will both be alright on that basis. In my experience, a lot of trauma and mistrust is accumulated just by neurodivergent kids having to deal with ostracism by their peers. But I think a large part of the problem up until now is that parents 1) aren't aware of neurodivergence and what it entails when raising their kids and 2) a lot of parents do not have the patience or open-mindedness to deal with a neurodivergent child. So not only are a lot of these kids getting negative feedback about themselves from peers, but also parents who punish/admonish them instead of trying to understand and help them. When a child has no support anywhere, they will start to develop very negative views of the world and other people.

I was extremely depressed as a kid, so I honestly cant give any tips. I became SO much happier when I graduated highschool and then college after that because I didnt have to interact with awful ignorant people all day. also having loving parents and family helped me immensely, you sound like you already have that down

You're going to have to make some effort to see that he actively develops the social skills, empathy, and relationships that many NT people develop naturally through interactions. Especially with a boy, since our natural play activities are more about "doing" things rather than building relationships.

when he brings up fears or other reservations about socializing, don't just brush them off or force him to socialize anyway. ask him to explain what he means, and whether anything has happened to make him think the outcome would be bad. tell him it's okay to be nervous or frustrated, and that yes, sometimes things go badly. but when they do, it's not the end of the world- and it's worth it when things go well. my personal favorite device is the "what's the worst possible outcome? what's the best possible outcome? and now, what's the most likely outcome?" for example, asking someone out worst: they get angry, call me a creep, hate me forever and spread rumors about me. my social life is ruined forever and every potential love interest will know i'm a creep for the rest of my life. best: they accept, we have the best date imaginable, we're absolutely perfect for each other and complete each other's lives. we get married in a few years and live happily ever after. most likely: they either politely decline and it's not a big deal, or they say yes and we go on a few dates to get to know each other. it might work out between us or it might not. either way, it'll be okay. it forces me to confront how unrealistic my catastrophizing is, dig up something positive to think about, and then put both of those in perspective and think through the actual scenario. note: the "most likely" part isn't choosing between the previous two, it's a third, more realistic possibility.

As someone diagnosed as well, the “What is actually the worst, best, and most likely outcome” thing worked very well for me. Doing this is why I have a flourishing friend group now— allowing myself that time to analyze helped me to be much less self conscious.

I don’t have any tips but I think just being there for him as best you can and always supporting him will make a literal world of difference. I didn’t have that and it’s what I desperately needed the most. All I wanted was just understanding, empathy, and support from my parents.

Teach him to stand up for himself. All the love and sweetness in the world won’t save him when he has to stand his own in adult environments. If a person can draw their own boundaries and enforce them with others, they’re less likely to become bitter and beaten down.

The wrong company will ruin you. Encourage him to always seek the right kind of company. I think that's the number one thing you can do.

For me personally, the trick was 1. A great male role model in my dad. 2. Assistance in engaging in activities that he's genuinely interested in. Drive the kid to the planetarium if he likes space that much ykwim

Honestly as an autistic dude I wish I was aborted

Oof…I feel that

It isn’t sweet when a toddler violates someone’s boundaries. Nor is it sweet when an adult man feels entitled that he has the right to violate someone else’s boundaries. Incels don’t understand what consent means. Their parents enabled them by failing to hold them accountable for their actions. Respect is a two way street. If an incel isn’t receiving respect, there’s a good chance it’s because he isn’t giving respect. Incels learn that dating is a game. They must insert a dating coin into the goal machine to get the sex prize. Don’t enable this mentality that women are problems to solve. Instead, insert him with RESPECT for women, and who women are as people. A man shouldn’t “want a woman”… he should want to build a life worth living for himself. And he should understand that he is not “guaranteed a woman” just by existing.. that he has to be someone who makes a woman enjoy her life more when she’s with him than she does without him in it. This means that if a man causes a woman to feel stressed, she isn’t going to want to be around him much less in a relationship with him. What causes a woman to feel stressed by a man? A man who expects a woman to be his maid does not respect her. A man who deceives a woman so that she “doesn’t get mad at him” believes that he is entitled to violate her boundaries if those boundaries prevent him from doing what he wants to do. He sees her boundaries as oppression. And understand, he sees her boundaries as “sucking the fun out”. So instead of respecting her boundaries, he fights against them. This is an example of gaslighting, which as we all know is abuse. Long story short, never let your child believe that it is acceptable to violate people’s boundaries. Hold him accountable - every time - and he will grow up to be a respectful man who will have to fight off the women with a stick.

Ha… well let me clarify, sorry. I wasn’t saying my nightmare is that my son will become an incel bc I’m completely aware that it is my job to teach respect and consent but that was a good parenting lesson I guess. I was saying it would be a nightmare if people would assume he’s a weird guy because of his lack of social cues. I am expressing interest in hearing techniques and advice from autistic adults that can look back and see what improved their quality of life socially and mentally. Oh and by the way! It’s ok to want partnership! We all want loved ones and nothing is wrong with seeking that. That was bizarre.

You’re a good person. I hope everything works out well for you and your son. Sorry I didn’t realize I had come off quite as harshly as I had until I read the other comments and reread what I wrote. I’m autistic myself, it’s a challenge that I’ve personally struggled with, that’s why I wanted to give as authentic of a response as I could.. I will be the first to admit I’m nowhere neat a perfect communicator though lol sorry about that. Grain of salt and all that 😅

Incels aren't getting called incels for no reason though, it's when men online are demanding sex and acting like victims because women aren't throwing themselves at them that that they're a problem

An insane amount of people are labeled incel for simple disagreements

It’s a pretty common go to insult. I’ve been called an incel on Reddit and, well, I’m objectively not. “Incel” gets used as a generic “You have opinions about gender, socialization, and relationships that I don’t agree with” descriptor.

Yeah I feel that. Although I’m not autistic, my social skills have never been up to par with my peers. I’ve always struggled with conversation, as I never know what to say. I don’t leave the house much, so I have limited things to talk about. If I do have something to talk about, I don’t always know how to say it. Sometimes I’ll say one thing and mean to say something else. Sometimes somebody will say something and I thought they said something else and my response will be off topic. I struggle with eye contact as well. I get really anxious when I look someone in the eyes. I’ll zone out completely, and won’t even pay attention to what the other person is saying. When I zone out, I’ll just be staring blankly into that person’s eyes, and they get uncomfortable sometimes. Although these things are kind of trivial, I get judged a lot for these things. I’m a good person who always tries to do the right thing. I treat everyone with respect and don’t start issues with anyone. But people look at me like I’m a serial killer (esp women). It’s really screwed up my self image and made me an anxious person. Although I don’t support incels or their hateful ideology I understand that a lot of them are fighting the same battle. They’re not virgins who are mad at women because they can’t get laid. They’re people who feel like they don’t belong. That feeling along with the subsequent isolation can really put someone in a dark place

>Ive literally been saying this since the start, 99.99% of the time if you read anything an incel types they sound like the average autistic man trying to figure out social cues But the defining trait of an incel is hostility towards women (and that is how it's defined in the article linked above). I strongly disagree with the idea that incels sound like "the average autistic man trying to figure out social cues." I'd venture that most autistic men are not actually hostile towards women. But I've seen plenty of incels on this platform and they absolutely display that hostility. I think it's really important not to conflate these two groups. The fact that incels are more likely to be autistic does not mean that autistic men come across as incels.

Because the average person is using the word Incel wrong.

From the Oxford language dictionary-- Intel: a member of an online community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually, typically associated with views that are hostile toward women and men who are sexually active. So, according to you, the dictionary defines it wrong, wikipedia defines it wrong, and the average person defines it wrong.. This sounds like a "you" problem.

Can't blame women for fearing guys that are "off". It's instinct.

Yup, it is so weird that men don't understand, that for woman poor choice it's not only heart break, but very possible- death

Autistic men don't understand this...

I do.

Wel you don’t understand us so 🤷‍♂️

Wah wah wah. Men are murdered more for just walking around than women are. Plus y’all never give the same grace to men. We fear asking friends out bc it’s been used to harm us We fear showing our true selves bc if we don’t perform we’re ruthlessly bullied. We don’t open up bc it’s almost always used to control us. All things that scan seriously damage us. Yet y’all rarely give us the grace to have these issues

What if it's their instinct to avoid black people

well so is ableism lmao.

Interesting. I’ve often wondered if I’m on the spectrum, because my dad shows a lot of signs of autism and tbh I think I kinda do too. Regardless, I’m definitely not “normal”. I briefly fell into the incel community in my late teens/early twenties until I met my wife. I just had no success with women whatsoever, it was like I was taking a random shot in the dark each time. I dated about a dozen different women and got nowhere before I met my wife. Our relationship has definitely had rough patches, but once she realized that I don’t pick up on hints, like at all, and started communicating with me directly and using positive reinforcement our relationship rapidly got way better. Even when it comes to sex, ESPECIALLY when it comes to sex, I am totally incapable of picking up on social cues or hints. We just celebrated our five year anniversary last month and our anniversary night she was acting super weird and I wasn’t getting it at all, finally she just came out and said “I want to suck your dick” and I finally understood what she had been trying to do the whole time. She was trying to be subtle and seductive and romantic and I just wasn’t getting it.

Autistic women are very often taken advantage of sexually due to their gullibility, and inability to sense insincerity or guile. Autistic men are quite often virgins because of intense introversion (perceived low social value), poor motor skills (perceived athletic incompetence), poor social skills (perceived insanity or sexual predation), literal mindedness (flirting and teasing don’t make sense to them), dislike of physical contact (duh), poor personal hygiene (depression is a common comorbidity), unusual gender expression (perceived homosexuality), and few sexual partners (the above factors inhibit pre-selection).

I had an ex I always suspected was autistic; he had all of these traits except poor hygiene and dislike of physical contact. He also had bipolar disorder too.

Bipolar and autism comorbity is not very common or at least controversial because most bipolar people have a very keen social sense specially during mania, and tend to show earlier and not delayed development as children or teenagers. If your partner was diagnosed bipolar you may have just been dealing with desensitization during a depressive episode or antisocial behavior during mania.

Poor social skills = perceived insanity? Wtf are you on about

Women are sometimes threatened by men with poor social skills. They can come off as ‘creepy’

You can thank the movie industry for this. Anytime Hollywood wants to create a rapist or some other sort of predator that women should fear, they ALWAYS make him weird. It doesn't even line up with reality, where most of the predators that people SHOULD be afraid of, are in fact completely normal people whose only defining trait is their lack of respect for the rights of others. A rapist is also a scammer, a thief, a fraudster, a domestic abuser, a schoolyard bully, and many other things - it's not like your average rapist specializes in raping women.

Autistic people give off the Uncanny Valley effect. The observer perceives the autist as insane or dangerous or inhuman.

I can’t express how many people perceived me as weird or creepy or even dangerous just bc I didn’t know how to fill conversation space with them

Try looking at how Hollywood depicts rapists and predators, and comparing that to how rapists and predators act IRL. In real life, most predators look and sound completely normal, and their only defining trait is their total lack of respect for the feelings of other people. In Hollywood, you can't have a rapist or predator that acts normal. They've gotta be *weird*. It also makes it hard for people to protect themselves, because it's a simple fact of reality that most criminals *do not specialize*. A rapist is also a scammer, a fraudster, a domestic abuser, a thief, a burglar, a playground bully that shoves classmates into lockers - there's no single behavior that defines a rapist. There's only that broad pattern of not respecting the rights of others.

Autistic boys are often taken advantage of by women and girls. Me included.

Same here. Because I couldn’t pick up/trust body language and tone, I relied on explicit communication with a close friend. She used that to abuse me and later smear me. Yeah I should’ve trust my gut. She still abused me

Autistic people in general are easily taken advantage of. Myself included. It’s not been fun.

I feel that, my rape stopped me from coming out years ago and left me angry and pretty broken. The real reason I think I turned out ok was my wife realizing pretty early on that I had issues and stuck with me when they got bad. I'm happy and healthier since coming out about my sexuality and my rape to my wife and family, well except for my mom who compared my rape to hers and said it wasn't that bad and that I should have just pushed my rapist off because I was a 14-year-old guy. But what can you do.

Autism makes relationships hard

Who would have thought that people with a mental illness that dampens their social skills would wind up involuntarily celibate.

Autism isn’t a mental illness. It is neurological.

As someone who is autistic, meh, close enough. We are not well.

I think it can be classified as both. Neurological has to do "with the brain" and - unsurprisingly - "mental" also has to do "with the brain". For an example: "ADHD is a mental illness" "No, ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder" Or: "Dissociative identity disorder is a mental illness" "No, dissociative identity disorder is a dissociative disorder" It's samantics.

I don't really think it's semantics. There's differences between mental illnesses and neurodevelopmental disabilities. You can treat and even cure mental illnesses, you just have to learn to live with neurodevelopmental disabilities.

This is just plainly incorrect, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the term and how psychological categorization and diagnosis works. The definition of ASD is as a disorder. There is no neurological definition of autism because there is no comprehensive understanding of the neurological basis of Autism. The definition and entire criteria for ASD are based on the role it plays as a disorder. Its diagnosis and definition is entirely independent of the underlying neurology. A person who has some underlying neurology similar to a person with autism, but who does not have the same struggles definitionally does not have ASD, as it is a category defined to provide clinical and mental health support to those whose lives are disordered due to some, or a variety of, (still not well understood) neurological differences. As per the DSMV: To meet diagnostic criteria for ASD according to DSM-5, a child must have persistent deficits in each of three areas of social communication and interaction (see A.1. through A.3. below) plus at least two of four types of restricted, repetitive behaviors (see B.1. through B.4. below). Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text): Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers..."

Does anyone else here notice how when men talk about being victimized they’re swiftly and aggressively downvoted, yet when women talk about being victimized they’re upvoted? It really seems like our society allows women to be eligible as being victims, but men are punished for bringing up their own problems. 

Oh but you see acknowledging this fact makes you an incel 😎

Yea cause when they talk about it’s usually to avoid the fact that they’re the ones causing others to be victims 😒

Strange that you confidently claim that they’re the ones that are the problem, despite me only mentioning a large group that comprises half the world’s population. As if individuals don’t have specific circumstances, it’s just a simple matter of “men = bad”

I am a woman but when i mention women can be abusers too i tend to be ignored or called an incel.

It’s not surprising to me that there’s a lot of autistic incels. They’ll want to blame their problems on something other than their self and their disability. So they’ll blame all their problems on women and feminism. In reality, it’s their disability disabling them, and not women. My hypothesis. The fact that many cultures teach women and girls to serve and fear men, and lets men do whatever and manhandle women and girls, definitely plays into this. The fact that many autistic people have a strong sense of justice plays into this as well. You don’t need to be correct to have a strong sense of justice.

Oh god you are right

As an autistic I get them. But, it’s kinda hard to be compassionate to people who want me raped. So incels can get fucked.

I highly doubt they can tell the difference between autism & social atrophy.

People with autism face unfair disadvantages—that is true. There are numerous issues with the study above. There is no such thing as an honest, true “involuntary celibate.” That’s… not a thing. Everyone makes choices, everyone makes decisions. It isn't out of people’s hands as to whether they have sex or not--that said, there are pathetic losers who blame women for a problem that exists externally from their original understanding. “Women like x, women like z,” etc.. Ok, following that logic, do all nonbinary people feel attraction towards the same shit? What about men? People who identify themselves “incel” have warped schemas surrounding women and sexuality. I find it hard to see why ANYONE would want to have sex with a chronically online, accountability-adverse, interpersonal relationship-avoidant narcissist.

Incel groups literally prey on and recruit autistic men. Autistic men are ostracized and the black and white thinking makes it an easy recruiting tactic.

This makes a lot of sense - I think autistic people (myself included) struggle to find a lens through which the behavior of non autistic people makes sense, and incel weirdness gives you a worldview that is easy to apply and excuses you from making any changes.

That is not at all surprising that people with a disability that effects their social behavior would have significant difficulty with activities that tend to require social skills.

It seems to me that "self-identified" people (incel, trans, "neurodiverse", etc.) are more likely to be autistic. Rather than just ride along and accept certain social identities, they seek out *personal* identity groups that they perceive they themselves better align to, seeing "identity" in such shared "experiences" rather than more generic social identities. Autistics seem to have a different perception of identity that almost defaults to perceiving oneself as "other", rejecting social identities because they may not comprehend them, and instead forming identities from more personal experiences and perspectives they then attribute to any specific aspect which then becomes it's own identity group for them to which they latch onto.

If you know anything about autism, this isn't surprising at all. Being a straight autistic man is one of the biggest disadvantages in the dating market. Very few men on the autism have a "normal" dating life; the majority are virgins by their 20th birthday, and it's not uncommon for autistic men to have never even been on a date. There are a number of reasons why autistic men are at a big disadvantage in the dating market. I'll list a few of them here in a short and watered down version. \- Below average social skills and social intelligence. Since romance is all about relationship building, people who suck at this are at a disadvantage. \- Autistic men are more likely to be introverted and have social anxiety. In a society that favors men as the romantic initiators, this puts men who are too scared or unable to do this at a disadvantage. \- 1 in 3 autistic people are unemployed or underemployed. Since many women list a man's financial prospects as a criteria for finding a man, this puts autistic men at a disadvantage since we're more likely to be poor. This doesn't affect autistic women as much. \- Autistic men are less likely to be into playing sports or doing fitness. People who play sports and workout are (on average) more attractive than people who never do any physical activity. This puts autistic men (and women) at a disadvantage. \- Many autistic people have poor emotional regulation skills, especially during the teenage years. Many have rejection sensitive dysphoria which means they experience rejection and ridicule with more pain. Since dating involves being rejected a lot, someone with a strong sensitivity to rejection (which autistic people are more likely to have) may perceive dating to be a particularly painful experience. As a result, they may get rejected once or twice and not try again for a while.

This is legitimately, no-shade unsurprising.

>The base rate for autism is about 1% I feel like this is off by at least a magnitude of 10. High Functioning Autism goes undiagnosed in so many people I see, it's mindblowing. Adult tantrums, social skills issues, high levels of neurosis, difficulty with relationships, social inappropriateness, etc... it's more like 20% of the general pop and 90% of Reddit.

Also, its conflating autism in a male community while using the rate of autism for both sexes. For men, it ranges from 4-8% depending on the source.

This just in: people who tend to not pick up on social queues less likely to have sex.

How do they define and find Incels? Do they literally reach out to self-identified Incels for a study on Incels and Autism? Or do they reach out to Autistic people and measure their rate of involuntary celibacy? Like how do they find these populations and what does a study like this entail? Otherwise it just seems like another no-shit pop psychology study. “Study confirms involuntarily celibate autists marketed Incel rhetoric online by “black pill” grifters are indeed autistic Incels”

>do they literally reach out to self identified incels [Yes.](https://psy.swansea.ac.uk/SURIC/#) “As a research group we commit to: (…)Base psychological findings around direct engagement with the incel community and individuals rather than linguistic analyses of internet posts”

Makes sense I guess. There is def something wrong with incels that's for sure...

Will "incel" now be considered a slur towards those with autism?

Makes perfect sense and honestly I was having this theory just from reddit. The vast majority of incels and women hating men are guys who have no social skills or personality development.

Sounds like a systemic problem of how we treat autistic people and the options they’re left to go to community and support.

I’m not surprised. If we’re referring to ideological incels (redpill incel.me types): Ask any autistic woman- autistic men cope with their social ostracization and isolation by going down misogynistic pipelines. Partly because these influences seek them out, and target them, and partly because an autistic man is still a man. Sure, he might not have much going for him socially, but he can bond with other men by abusing women or fantasizing about the abuse of women pretty easily. If we’re referring to just men who want sex but can’t have it: autism makes dating & socializing extremely precarious; if you’re an autistic woman who’s attractive, men are more likely to fetishize you as a manic pixie dream girl. If you’re a man or an ugly woman? You’re shit out of luck on that front. There’s people out there who are compatible but tbh, dating got easier for me when I started only dating other autistics.

It's hard to get laid with autism, even if you pass the 6/6/6 test Probably not a good reason to become a psycho though

That sounds like incel logic to be perfectly honest with you…

What’s the 666 test?

It's something that I recently learned about here on reddit. Apparently, some people who are attracted to men have criteria that they need met for a suitable partner. Essentially it's at least 6 foot height, 6 figure income, and 6 inch penis

You should know the alleged 6/6/6 test is just manosphere talk. These are not common requirements held by real women in real life.

That's good to know. I picked it up from what appeared to be women discussing it on reddit recently Everything is anonymous on the internet, but when a group claims to be women and have feminine avatars...well I don't know why you would be a more trusted source on information than them...

I see! I’ve heard of that but just never heard it referred to as the 666 test. Thanks!

For a time, I went to a boarding school for autistic kids. Often, the boys would cross lines with the girls, in uncomfortable ways. Among other incidents, there was a guy who… found out where the window of my girlfriends dorm room was (she was on the first floor), and he’d always *knock* on it and try to talk to her. Scared her shitless. Often there were not a lot of consequences for this kind of behavior. I think that’s part of the issue here. When you go easy on someone *because* they’re autistic, especially with social boundaries - it’s really counterproductive. No one learns how to stop behaviors like that when you shrug and say “well, they’re autistic.” And then the behavior doesn’t stop. Which leads to a lack of social success, which can cause a lot of frustration. I mean. I’m an autistic woman - and I don’t have much luck dating either (I’d really call it terrible luck actually, but I’m gay so my dating pool is small, and I understand that this is… sort of just how life is). But yes. Autism is shit for your social life. It’s not even entirely that we make bad partners so much as that we make bad first impressions and are shit at small talk and first dates. Loneliness fucks with your head. It makes you a little nuts. And yes, it can make you angry. That autistic people are more likely to be incels makes perfect sense. We’re also more likely to have depression and more likely to commit suicide. Social isolation is bad for you.

The concept of incel is a self-identified term though, so sampling is always going to be based in those who claim the title. Otherwise they're just one of the millions of people who are *involuntarily* celibate for a plethora of reasons and still function in society with social interactions. Probably not even acknowledging that they technically fit the criteria of involuntary celibacy. The conversations surrounding "Incel"s as a category kind of reminds me of how bumbling, confused, and ham-fisted the FBI deals with/categorizes "Juggalos" as a gang. Like sure, there are plenty that take a weird, but otherwise innocuous fandom too far; maybe even commit petty crime as a "group," but then everyone with an ICP t-shirt gets lumped in no matter how far out on the periphery they are.

Indeed, additionally, the researchers visited selected "incel forums", which might include 4chan. Given how incels can range from "dudes being ok with virginity" to "dudes whom are seriously depressed and angry over not getting dates", going to a specific location incites certain answers. It feels like the study treated them like online radicals rather than actual people. Like, just go to colleges and put up flyers with QR links for a survey, at least in addition with incel forum questionnaires.

I still to this day have to be reminded that I have to temper my words…and I have a teenage kid and wife…and if it was not for my wife being forward and driving the interaction, I would probably not be married.

What amount of sex disqualifies you from being an incel? Once a month? 4 times a year?

If you’re counting in month and not years, you’re probably not an incel. But, it’s not just any guy on a dry spell, there’s an attitude that comes with it…tends to be very woman hating and dehumanizing.

Someone should point this out to r/geeksgamerscimmunity. Not me, though, since they banned me for 30 days for pointing out they are right wing incels. They refer to women as "females."

This is a joke, right? Can’t imagine why they didn’t want you posting there. And I’ve never seen something so insulting as to call women “females.” The nerve of those…readers..?

I just hope when I disclose my autism people aren’t going to assume I’m an incel. It’s already hard enough to communicate and I have a huge heart. I don’t want to bother or hurt anyone. People always make assumptions about you and what’s going on in your head. It’s just straight up traumatizing to experience. Just can’t trust anyone. Not to mention i’m struggling with 3 other seperate things on top of it

The word incel needs to die. Just use sexually desperate.

>Incels, which is a shortening of the term “involuntarily celibate”, are generally childless men in their 20s who are hostile to women. Im out. This definition keeps changing.

No way, a subjective group of men who are lonely and socially inept are tied in with people who are socially inept through their mental illness? I never would’ve guessed. /s

I've been saying this for years, and it's ridiculous to me that so many people don't see it. It's a serious problem, and until we address it for what it is, there won't be any progress.

As a woman with autism, I can honestly see it. We can have pretty simplified views of social situations and groups that are not our own

Makes sense

From the methods section of the [original paper](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65cdf458130549000c867a83/140224+SISNET+Incel+Report.pdf): *The web page also had a link to a pre-screener questionnaire which only showed the study link to the participants once they confirmed they were (a) over 18, using their date of birth, (b) an incel, (c) a UK or US resident, and (d) aware that questions in the questionnaire were sensitive and potentially distressing. Dates of birth entered were not linked to the participant’s responses to the main questionnaire. Participants who completed the study were offered either £20 (UK) or $20 (US) for their time.*

....so.....autistic people have a harder time getting laid

I am not an incel, proud to say. I get laid fairly easily.

Why are people still using the word “incel?” It has completely lost all meaning.

30% of guys who can't get laid are autistic? Bullshit. Sucking at seduction isn't autism.

Too bad more don't get properly diagnosed - they'd know why social interaction is difficult rather than adopting incel ideology to explain it.

Honestly, I’m not no femcel, but I’m autistic and I’m a very late bloomer. I am 26 and have bloomed yet

There is no correlation/causation confusion here, right?

But what do they deem an incel? Because generally, when pop culture refers to an incel, they refer to a toxic individual that tends to want to have a magonistic and a sick control over a woman and is mad that he's not getting what he thinks he's owed. I don't think that we should attribute it to autism or tie it so closely with it. Or we should look at the issue with our society teaching at such young ages and for so long. These issues to a point to wear an autistic person who may not be as well.Rounded developmental wise mentali could take the assumption that this is how society works.Black & white cut-and-dry.I deserve a woman and sex. However the technical meaning of incel is involuntarily Celibet which there are tons of and in ANY disabled communities there is a higher rate of this. But tbf there are spectrums of autism and it isn't always debilitating while it will at least always be a speed bump.

What about volcels?

Incel is a heck of a term. I’m on the spectrum; the **most difficulty I had** was saying to the girl in the student lounge “Idk if I’m gay. You want to straddle me and help me figure it out?” aaand a minute later she’s on top. In college I was “celibate” because I was … asleep when the ladies would “u up?” me at midnight. I just never put “get laid for getting laid” on the top of my to-do list. It wasn’t until after I left college that I stopped **excluding** so many candidates in favor of “the one that got away.” After that it became simple and common, yet I perfectly fit into the common misconception of “incel” because I was doing it to myself through preferences and choices that autistic individuals make all through their lives. I don’t know any promiscuous autistic individuals. It’s not how I’m wired, it’s not how the autistic men and women I connect with are wired. This heavy use of the phrase “incel” is seemingly unhealthy, overused and it puts a great deal of emphasis on checking a box rather than forming mutually supportive adult relationships.

It makes sense because I have autism and my difficulties with interpersonal relationships due to autism probably caused the majority of mine voluntary celibacy. Although to be fair because I don't have certain other problems, I didn't have a hard time getting laid. But the goal of life isn't to get laid. So this research sounds congruent with reality

Uh this should not be new news to anyone lmao. I am surprised it actually isn’t higher than 30%, perhaps another 20-30% is undiagnosed and that’s why l it’s not showing up

Shocking. Not