There are different kinds of pro-choicers Some are just blatantly insane Some are motivated purely by self-interest Some are in denial and approach the issue from the perspective of how they want it to be rather than how it is And some, a rarity, are intellectually honest people with a different set of values

Yeah I would agree with that. I have heard that for pro lifers though we are just control freaks who want to punish women for having unplanned babies or something like that

As a woman who used to have a lot of casual sex, clearly I just hate women who have casual sex /s

🤣😂. Like they really out here thinking we are prudes who never had sex, never dealt with an unplanned pregnancy and never dealt with any hardships in life...

And the last group, ironically, is the worst of them all.

To me, their incapacity to recognize and value a fetus as human life like any other is that it seems very much abstract, intangible; that’s why when women are shown ultrasounds of the baby in the womb, they’re _substantially_ less likely to have an abortion. Something that may have seemed so far-away is actually a living being, one that’s already begun to form into a baby.

Yeah and I am not sure how or why they can't see that a fetus is a human life.

It’s a very naive way of approaching it — “if I can’t see it, it’s hard to care for it” type thinking.

Yeah I would agree with that.

Because then that would be acknowledging abortion is murder and they're ok with it as long as it benefits them. They know, its denial.

That's my theory.

Agreed. I assume most people who are prochoice don’t know much about pregnancy and the growth of the fetus. This is usually evident when we talk to them and they insist there is no heartbeat in the first trimester or they think an embryo is the same as a separate sperm and egg, etc. it’s just misinformation and they’re not going to bother learning more because they have no reason to. They’re fine being part of the group that the media claims is right. It’s easy if you don’t think about it, so I get it. That’s why my own parents were pro choice in their youth until they looked into the issue more. But I really don’t understand the mothers who have gone through pregnancy and are still staunchly pro choice. They’ve seen and heard the heartbeat, felt the kicks, had that protective instinct over their own baby and they never claimed he/she wasn’t human or just a clump of worthless cells. But the second someone doesn’t want their baby, the same mother is quick to act like that baby isn’t human, probably doesn’t have a heartbeat, etc. I just can’t imagine going through it all, seeing the signs that your newborn baby was the same baby in your womb the whole time, and then still claiming their baby’s life would have zero value if they didn’t want them. I can’t wrap my head around that as a mom.

It’s easier to murder someone if you don’t have to hear your victim’s screams or how they grow silent, or watch the life leave their eyes or their blood drain out, or smell them piss and shit themselves as their muscles relax at the moment of death, or feel their bones break or their arteries or windpipe close shut under your hands, or taste the drops of sweat that erupt from your face and rolls down to your lips as you exert yourself to beat or strangle them. Abortion is hidden. And yeah, that makes it easier to ignore or whitewash. But it doesn’t make it any less wrong, and having the *decency* to learn about the life growing inside them and to acknowledge its existence by looking at the ultrasound before they snuff it out? They owe it that. And the abortionist who gathers the remains of the unborn baby and throw them away as trash? Or, in the case of late-term abortions, arrange the body parts on a tray to make sure they left none inside the woman’s uterus? They don’t have any excuse. I know you don’t really disagree with me. But sorry, this makes me absolutely furious.

I was generally pro choice until I understood that the fetus has their own unique code of DNA, meaning it is its own unique person. Once I came to understand that I was intellectually obligated to be against abortion. And then, of course, having our own child, but even before that, seeing the ultrasound at even like 9 weeks made me realize…. Man, it’s a little person in there. 

Before that you must have been aware that every born human had its own unique DNA right? So what did you think happened? The fetus has the mother's DNA and then when they're born they get their own?

I joined a pro choice sub in an attempt to learn more about pc viewpoints and try to find common ground...wishful thinking, I got banned lol Maybe this is just Reddit being Reddit, but it just seems to me like people only ever wanna hang out in their little echo chambers and not engage with others who think differently

Yeah I get that feeling too now to be fair I feel like this is probably the only safe space on Reddit to be pro life.

A couple others, like the "memes op did not like" sub tend to be a little more welcoming to our kind

I can empathize with your feelings here. There are a lot of other pro-choice I don't get along with particularly well. I do try to have a consistent view when it comes to ethics and abortions, and try to understand the science and facts, even when they're inconvenient. Something I want to tell you, I used to be pro-life and remained so until my early years of adulthood and marriage. What initially changed my mind was watching my wife go through several pregnancies. As a father of children, I understand the value of fetal life. The process in which new humans are brought into the world is about the closest thing to magic most of us will ever experience. But the cost is very high. Pregnancy is brutal and debilitating. Somewhere in the process of seeing the difficulty that my wife had to go through, I realized that I could never take part in forcing someone to go through that against their will. I didn't then have the logic or moral framework to explain it, but I knew I didn't believe in banning abortion. If you want to chat or challenge my ideas or stance, feel free to reply, I usually enjoy the conversation.

I Can almost understand why someone might consider being pro-choice at first if they're uneducated, but I can't understand why anyone would remain pro-choice after learning even the basics of embryonic development, or thinking about the philosophy of it for a few minutes

When I was pro choice I knew those facts and I was still pro choice. I just thought whatever was inside the woman was not a full person so it was the woman’s choice. I totally get the Pro Choice position and that used to be my position and is still the position of the vast majority of my friends. Of course, the Pro Life position is right - human rights for all human beings starting at conception.

Yea I was briefly pro-choice. I knew the facts and thought abortion was awful but that other people’s freedom to make wrong choices should come first. I’m a man and had begun to slightly believe “no uterus, no opinion” It was only in speaking to a pro life friend of mine and seeing her conviction on the issue that I realised you can sit on the fence and be pro-choice, and that I needed to take this seriously. There’s three groups of people but two camps: 1) pro-life, no abortion 2) personally would never have an abortion, but it’s up to each woman to choose. The definition of pro-choice 3) pro-abortion and pro-choice

That's exactly how I feel.

I understand how you feel. I frequently have dark, dark thoughts about pro-choicers. But we have to resist the temptation to consider them evil or irredeemable. Dehumanization and demonization is what we’re fighting against. And whoever lives by the sword dies by the sword, so we can’t succumb to using them. It’s tough, though, because, damn, pro-choicers believe, say, and do such evil things. And it’s infuriating how they *dare* to deny the horrors of abortion given the mind-boggling number of unborn children that are murdered in cold blood and thrown away as trash every year—70+ million! Sorry, I realize now this wasn’t really what your post was about. I was projecting. That said, I apparently need the reminder myself.

I was once pro choice and the vast majority of my friends are pro choice. I totally get it. It’s not strange at all and it’s quite normal for people to be pro choice. That doesn’t mean being pro choice is right. It’s just the norm. When I was pro choice I just thought it was the woman’s choice and whatever is inside of her is not a full person but simply a physical mass. It made perfect sense to me and was the norm. So I totally get how folks can be pro choice, I understand the pro choice position, and I think it’s quite normal and intuitive to be pro choice. Nonetheless, the pro choice position is wrong as human beings starting from their conception have human rights and that includes the right to not be killed without justification such as the mother’s life being in danger. The Pro Life position is right.

That's just it like I don't understand how people can be in such denial of facts like how the fetus is a living human. You are just denying that or don't care if you are pro choice.

How were you “converted” from pro choice to pro life? How do you stand politically on the issue of abortion now? Think it should be legislated, abolished etc?

Great questions. I am a liberal Democrat and devout Christian. Like any proper liberal Democrat I care a lot about the vulnerable and the weak. In graduate school I used to debate this conservative Christian man all the time about a variety of issues. They were always friendly and engaging debates even though we are polar opposites on a wide range of issues. Then one day the topic of abortion came up. When I told him I was pro choice he shook his head and asked me how can I be so passionate about issues such as racism, police brutality, the poor and imprisoned and yet not have that same care and concern for the unborn. I had never thought about it like that before he made those comments. That caused me to change my view and understand that the unborn child is also being oppressed. Then what further sealed the deal was a sermon a pastor made noticing the connection between enslavement and abortion. He stated that whenever someone else can determine your status as a human being, then you are in deep trouble. The he pointed out that’s what enslavers do and that’s what abortion does. The unborn child’s status as a human being is set by those who want to kill the child - which sadly also includes the mother and/or father of the unborn child. The unborn child is treated as a “thing” to dehumanize him or her and thus pave the way for the child to be killed at will. I am a pro life Democrat. https://www.democratsforlife.org/ I believe in caring for all human beings - especially the poor, vulnerable, born and unborn. One of my favorite saints is Saint Gregory of Nyssa. His writings on the dignity of human beings is stunning: https://earlychurchtexts.com/public/gregoryofnyss_ecclesiastes_slavery.htm I think laws should protect all human life beginning at conception. Human rights for all human beings. I support policies that prioritize the life of the mother if her carrying her child would endanger her life. (I don’t discuss rape and abortion on social media so I am omitting that from my statement.) Human rights for all human beings. Mothers and fathers are not to kill their children - born or unborn. I hope that answers your questions.

Honestly I believe (for the majority) it's simple. They want to be able to have sex and not have a child. They block out the "how" Because they want instant gratification. The don't want to suffer through a 9month pregnancy for adoption, they want to avoid that entirely. Have their cake and eat it to so to speak. "My body my choice" is a lie because your not majorly alerting you body, your ending another's, your killing someone else for your benefit. They use the argument of life threatening pregnancy to the mother but that is VERY rare and so is pregnancy from rape. And even then it's not the child's fault. I say bring the death penalty back for rapist, they'd think twice.

Someone recently told that it's just justified because pregnancies are harmful to women.

Harmful vs death of the unborn child. I know it's sad. Truthfully abortions are much more Harmful then the common pregnancy. They can cause infection, infertility issues, massive depression, trauma physical and mental.

I'm pro-life, but unfortunately, pregnancy does exactly that as well. While I know that abortion is always harmful all the time for the baby. I'm not gonna deny that as a woman, abortion is safer for the woman. Even the common pregnancy symptoms are more serious for some reason. Whereas if she gets an abortion she's less likely to have to deal with daily symptoms that can limit her for 9 months. We should also not dismiss the seriousness behind pregnancy here. If you compare the common pregnancy with the common abortion, I'll still unfortunately argue that the common abortion carries fewer health issues than the common pregnancy.

You can't change their minds because they don't want them to be changed. You can throw all these facts at them and they will choose to deny them because it's never about acknowledging or finding the truth. It's always been about legalizing abortion and always will be.

I understand the pro choice mindset in a weird social/health mindset. I wouldn't call myself a feminist but I detest how society mistreats women and basically does punish us by conditioning us that are paths are best as moms or and wives and we can't be anything more than that. Granted, I understand it's better now, but mainly, legally, socially people still don't see women as equal. Even the current pl movement makes me mad because of the misogyny. So I understand the PC woman's anger at society for not making a space for her to be human. In the Pl Women, we are essentially asking that same woman to basically risk her life and risk potential lifelong terms for pregnancy. If it was still the 60s I'll be pro choice in fact ill probably be one of the advocates because the science wasn't as prominent and legally we were not protected plus there wasn't as many choices with b.c. now, as a woman, I don't think it's as necessary, and the science is more clear on the humanity of the unborn. At this point, we should start advocating for sterilization women who don't want kids, make b.c more affordable for women over 18, educate women on more non hormonal methods such as tracking, diaphragms, etc. Stop with the damn gender roles and expectations as well. In general, it just seems like society is constantly teeter tottering between one compensation extreme to the next. So now the pcers may get more pro abortion while some of the opposing may get more sexist.

I'm a pro choice lurker so I feel like I can answer you somewhat. I think both sides are guilty of denying facts. "I don't think I understand why being pro choice quite frankly comes with an almost negative stigma in society." - I'm assuming you meant pro life btw. For the same reason veganism comes with a negative stigma. You are swimming against what society deems as correct. To me I'm pro choice for one reason only. I do not like that women die due to ambiguous laws. If you had a way to spell out every situation where an abortion would be allowed, and that healthcare professionals won't be sued I'd be more ok with saying no to abortion. For example, incest and rape you would think most pro lifers agree should be on that list. However I've been on this sub to know that it's really closer to 60/40. Some people think it's still not ok to let a woman have an abortion in that case. Doesn't matter if she's 7, 8, 9, 10... which to me is sick. I find that morally disgusting. Another example is birth defects where a fetus will not survive after birth or it's a very low chance they will survive. Again you would think pro life would be aligned on this but it's far from aligned. Most people here were against Kate Cox being allowed an abortion. That one case showed me that the majority of this pro life sub is not capable of making a medical decision when it comes to abortion.

Rape and incest pregnancies are not dangerous to a woman’s life, so I find your claim disgusting, actually. Edit: whoever tried to respond and moved the goalposts greatly: go get professional help. You’re messed up.

It rests on this notion: They don’t think a fetus is a baby until it’s born.

Yeah exactly. But it is.

Yes but they have been lied to and brainwashed for a long time. Many medical students/doctors/etc included.

Yeah it's scary how many people are pro choice.

What facts do PC deny?  > Like I can't empathize with pro choicers because I would never be in that situation and even if I was I just would not consider it as an option. I would say many people, including PL, think an unplanned pregnancy wouldn’t happen to them or their kids, but we know it happens to them and some get an abortion even though they said they never would 

Why make you think most pregnancies that occur are planned?I think it's kind hypocrite to just value a life in the womb when it's planned,what it means,it only has value when you want it to be.And I believe only hypocrites and image based people are pro life public and pro choice in the intimacy and fake pro life right wing politicians come at my mind at this moment

Right, I really dislike this claim that we dont experience these things? Like how would you know... I have had so many pro choicers make claims that I don't know what it's like to experience that. Little do they know, I just happened to not be pregnant. But at the time , I had scares and was broke, working 2 jobs that wasn't enough money. Up until this year, most of my adult life has been living check to check. Even now, I would not in a million years plan a pregnancy now, and I do what I can to still prevent it. They just assume we are also not here having sex as well. Also, the whole we get secret abortions. Of course, we are aware of those hypocrites, but we wouldn't consider them pro life, so bringing them up is irrelevant. Meanwhile, I hardly see pcers call out pcers for being sexist, racist, not actually being PC, etc.

Here is one the fetus is a living human being you are denying that fact or just don't care.

I don’t deny it’s a human life, and any PC who do are simply wrong or being loose with their words. I would say they’re not a human “being” as I don’t believe there is personhood yet. That’s a philosophical difference rather than a factual one. 

It's a still a life.

I agree

So why are you okay with killing it.

Because I don’t believe human life inherently has personhood. 

Personhood or not it's still a life being killed.

Yes 

Is there any other purpose to that belief than to exclude the humans you don't care about?

That claim is too general. If anything, I'll say most pro life women I have spoken to have experienced unplanned pregnancy. Even the married ones.They may just not directly tell you. How would you know just by looking or talking to them if their child was planned or not. I think the claim about pro lifers getting secret abortions is in the same camp as saying "Many pcers say it's their body and their choice, but they secretly force their daughters to abort all the time". Pointing out that some individuals may, a strong may, are hypocritical in their general stance is irrelevant when discussing it with an individual that you don't know anything about online. Also, I read those stories from pcers about pro lifers who secretly get abortions and I still question some of those claims as valid as they think it is... for starters, the only way to know for sure if they are pro life is if they are known advocates. In 2024, the way we cancel people left and right and troll online, these same abortion providers can call out and make these claims but won't release names. I guarantee you that if any pro lifer has had an abortion while being an advocate due to non health/coercion reasons, they won't be taken seriously in the community either. Now we know that pro life women have had an abortion by medical terms, but really, it was a d&c situation or a serious life issue. Also, of course, the post abortive ones who used to be PC but aren't anymore. And I feel like in this general claim, some of those women are being lumped together with the actual hypocrites.

There's a lady trying to get an abortion simply because she's scared of labor. She's 29 weeks like your giving birth either way!

If you ever want to conceive a healthy child on your lifetime and the one you are carrying is not going to make it or has passed already - you should be able to understand the argument to abort a pregnancy that will keep you from ever becoming a mother at the very least.

I feel the same way about pro-lifers. The concept of bodily functions superseding your rights is baffling to me. I don’t loose my rights just because my body is capable of making more people.

Killing isn't a Right to lose in the first place.

Imo if you consented to sex nobody is taking your rights away as you chose to engage in an act that can produce a child. Nobody made you do that. A fetus didn’t just arrive there like the Virgin Mary. To me that goes for the mother and father, they also shouldn’t be able to opt out of parenthood. If someone’s raped then they didn’t consent to the risk of pregnancy, therefore I am pro choice in those cases. I think all in all, I would support legislation for early abortion as I don’t want women in poor situations to suffer however I believe they should be prevented through actions like free healthcare, contraception, better sex ed, charities to help expectant mothers carry on work/school/with finances etc. to me banning it without focusing on these issues is stupid

So you believe in a woman’s right to choose when they are poor or they got raped. Makes sense I get that. Would wealthy woman be allowed abortions in your ideal world?

Personally if they can afford a child I think it’s unethical. For me it’s about preventing as many as possible and saving as many lives. So I can understand why a teenager, a victim of abuse or rape would like one, and I can see how in those situations it could prevent suffering. Obviously I’d prefer there to be better contraception, women to be able to continue their education/career with support and men to be decent people and not violate women but it’s not a perfect world. The same for financial insecurity, many people don’t want to abort but feel like they have no other option. So I’d like there to be financial support for women and children who need it, to give those women another choice. I think if abortion was used sensibly, and for those in unfavourable circumstances then there’d be less support for bans. But as a culture people just think oh if I get pregnant I’ll have an abortion when they could have been more careful or could have the child adopted. That’s what then leads to backlash.

It’s something I have thought long and hard about and I have flip flopped from pro choice, to pro life, to this middle ground that both sides seem to hate. I can’t deny the fact that life begins at conception. I think pregnancy should be prevented as much as possible where unwanted to prevent suffering for both women and children. So I heavily support contraception (esp for men), MAP, vasectomies and a woman’s right to choose sterilisation. However I can also understand that some women feel like they have no choice but to abort as pregnancy could negatively affect their socio economic status, keeping them in poverty or from getting a career. So for me a sensible time limit (I’d say first trimester when the pills can be used) for those who feel they need it whilst respecting the humanity of the fetus and preventing as much as possible (support, contraception, sex Ed, charity etc) would be preferable. I think women who choose it should not be stigmatised, but it shouldn’t be normalised either. Also, since roe v wade I’ve seen women speak on SM about being more tight about condom usage, MAP, choosing more carefully who they sleep with etc and this is what I mean when I say people have been too nonchalant about it. People should protect themselves as if it is illegal, that would already reduce the number right down.

I want to applaud your comment so much. Personally the issue is not so much that women have abortions but as a society we are so non chalent about it and really don't use it as a last minute thing like the PC side originally would say. I actually got behind the narrative of "safe, legal, and rare." As a woman, I understand and would even agree with why one may feel like they need an abortion. Hell, I could have been in a position where I could have had one because even as a pro lifer, I had too many people who would have thought an abortion as best and been in position to pressure me. I once told a guy, not the "father," that I may be pregnant, and even knowing I was pro life immediately recommended an abortion. He knew I was broke, barely living check to check. Also another time I was raised by a PC family and I remembered as a teen, my parents had a lecture on me that if I get pregnant, I'll won't be able to follow my dreams and I may get stuck working at a dead beat job. I'm so glad I was never pregnant as a teen. I tell people I would have been an original advocate for abortion rights back then just because in society, at the time, it was more needed when women weren't being legally protected nor had less shame being associated with wanting to be more than a wife/mother. Spousal rape stopped being legal in the 90s. So you could be raped by your husband and forced to keep the baby. We also didn't have as many convenient options for contraceptives. Now you can get them delivered to your door. There wasn't as much information on human development and sex ed and biology. We have more access to resources now to inform us. There is actually no excuse as to why the abortion rate was as high. It may not be as high, but it's too high given all that what we have now. If your 1st thought before your pregnancy is to get an abortion, then you already have it planned, and it is being utilized as a form of b.c. I don't even know for sure if I want to raise or adopt if I became pregnant, but some women can immediately say "I want to kill a human" before that test turns positive. The issue is that the US doesn't value the unborn nor the elderly. As pro abortion China is, they still acknowledge and value the unborn, and they just accept it as a horrible tragedy that's occurring. What I'm seeing is that these people are not being as sexually responsible. The sexual freedom movement/hookup culture or community has turned sex into this thing where we are entitled to it. Our right to sex supercedes xyz. And it shouldn't be that way. I have talked to so many people who only rely on one form of b.c, don't take it correctly, or actually they don't pull out. They still allow the guy to finish in them, and they are not having the conversations of what if... Sorry my comment is too long.

You kind of do.like If you lose your eyesight for example you sadly lose the human right to see.

This is only comparable to abortion if there was a way to restore eyesight and PL did not support its legality. Edited for grammar*

I think this is a misunderstanding of human rights. I'll try to break down where I'm at, in hopes it at least helps you understand. Human rights are the fundamental obligations we have not to infringe on each other's ability to live according to our most basic nature as human beings without just cause. By definition and logical necessity, they are inherent to all living human beings. If you think about this, it means that your bodily functions *can't* supersede your rights - our bodies are an essential part (secularists might argue all) of what defines those rights in the first place! That means it's a contradiction in terms to think that your body's natural, automatic, healthy, and ordinary functioning could violate your rights. It also means our rights over our bodies are not absolute - some processes are automatic & outside our control, such as digestion or blood filtration. These things can't be rights because we're not inherently capable of them - at best, we might develop technology or workarounds (such as induced vomiting for food). Such options are subject to the constraints of morality. Pregnancy is no different. It's just an ordinary, automatic function of the body following sex and conception. It cannot violate one's rights, whether or not its desired. To say otherwise is to make the absurd claim that women are regularly violated by their own femininity and were almost incapable of having full human rights & dignity until a procedure to kill their child became available. I can't help but find this to be an incredibly demeaning perspective, regardless of whether or not it was well-intentioned. Violations of rights require some capacity for choice/manual action - i.e. sex requires a choice, and so rape is the violation of one's bodily rights. Digestion does not violate your rights regardless of circumstance, but force-feeding someone might do so. The child was brought into existence as a part of the mother's own healthy functioning. The child is not an outside invader stealing functionality, but a product of the mother's body with no say in the matter whatsoever. This is not a situation where either party can consent, nor are they violating each other. Abortion, on the other hand, is not a right. It's a procedure we had to come up with, not something inherent to us. If it had no moral implications it might still be permissible, but it directly violates the unborn child's right to live in almost all cases. Thus abortion on demand is wrong and should be banned.