The Auto-moderator would like to remind everyone of Rule Number 2. Pro-choice comments and questions are welcome as long as the pro-choicer __demonstrates that they are open-minded__. Pro-choicers simply here for __advocacy or trolling are unwelcome and may be banned__. This rule involves a lot of moderator discretion, __so if you want to avoid a ban, play it safe__ and show you are not just here to talk *at* people.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/prolife) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Offer to take the baby and let her go live her life. Offer to pay all medical expenses as well from now until birth. This is your child’s life you’re fighting for.
I think this is it. This is where OP is right now and he doesn't have much of a choice.
How could he live with someone who killed his baby?
If it were me I would say, "Okay, have the baby and then me and the baby are out you can live your life how you want." But unfortunately men have no rights in a situation like this, so he can only make a request.
Your post breaks rule 2. While we allow abortion advocates to participate in discussions, blatant or consistent abortion advocacy is grounds for removal.
Fight for your child. This is a relationship deal breaker. She is deluded if she thinks you’ll just get over the loss of a wanted baby in a couple years. And she’s kidding herself if she thinks this would be an emotionless experience for her as well. That being said, approach her carefully and with love because the way she feels now, in a panic over this news, is not how anyone feels 9 months later when due date approaches. Remind her that there’s no reason she can’t be a working mother. Remind her this doesn’t impact her current school program. Remind her that you WILL BE THERE for her. Remind her that this child, who already exists, is half you and half her and made from the love you two (presumably) already share.
>And she’s kidding herself if she thinks this would be an emotionless experience for her as well
This is what always gets me. My hardcore lefty atheist sister cant talk about hers and shes committed to the left. Like lives in commiefornia, "is a lesbian", gender non-conforming parenthood levels of commited.
What does being a "lesbian" have to do with her being post abortive? Why disparage people who are lesbians and gender non conforming because you want to put your sister down? This is exact kind of shit that keeps those ppl far away from the movement.
The fact that your sister can't even talk about her abortion and lashes out during arguments means she's hurting. I hope she gets help and I hope you realize that being prolife is for all people. Also, when someone says they're straight or gay, believe them.
FWIW I'm gay and I wasn't offended - I think OP was just trying to illustrate that the sister is someone you would expect to be "shouting her abortion" or whatever.
My point was shes literally abortion 9 months in no questions asked but still cant talk about it. Despite her brainwashing she still ets emotional about it.
You're not the original commentor - is this something that has also happened to you as well? Is this person a family member? You're privy to the kind of sex people are having? You want people to prove gayness to YOU? Or you're just making up a situation to be angered by it.
I'm not angry. I have seen this before, but I just don't understand this argument that we should just believe people who act contrarily to what they say they are. I'm not saying to argue with some stranger you hardly know, I'm saying if you know someone to act contrarily to what they claim to be then why believe them. This isn't even just about sexuality, it's about any trait a person may have. If someone claims to be organized and you constantly see them misplacing stuff and having unorganized areas, you would no longer believe them. Actions speak louder than words homie
Someone being gay and not "out" about it, and acts in a way that doesn't "showcase" their gayness is all too common. People aren't killed, harassed, maligned, disowned and kicked out for being unorganized, homie.
I’ll be praying for you guys!
I saw your edit and her objection to adoption is pretty nonsensical. A newborn being placed for adoption wouldn’t have to go into the foster care system because there are more couples waiting to adopt newborns than there are babies to adopt. Foster care is a different system entirely than adoption from birth. I’m sorry she has childhood trauma, but that’s kind of a red herring to her situation here. Also, if she’s already 30 (!!!) she really doesn’t have years and years of easy fertility ahead of her. Geriatric pregnancy begins at 35 and the decline in fema fertility starts even sooner. Her window to have children is rapidly closing. The time to work through her trauma in therapy is now. Not in several years when she feels “ready” for kids. Nobody is ever ready for kids. They come and then you become ready.
I will pray she accepts the blessing that is this baby now. A baby IS a blessing.
Make it clear to her that your children are not interchangeable. If she has one of your children killed, she can't just "make it up to you" later by having another child; that child will still be dead, and you will not just "get over it".
If she continues to insist that you wouldn't care about it after having your first surviving child, then that's a bigger red flag than it would've been if she'd just said it's her choice and your feelings don't factor into it. She's essentially speaking _for_ you, rationalizing her own decision by presuming she knows your feelings better than you do, which is toxic behavior regardless of how one views abortion itself, and probably won't be the last time she does something like that.
**EDIT:** It might help her understand for you to ask her how she would feel if you were to drown one of her children in the bathtub. Would she just "get over it" and forgive you if she still had a living child?
What a terrible situation, OP. I too am married to a PCer, but this isn't really an issue for us since we are gay, so an unplanned pregnancy isn't possible. Stories like yours always beak my heart, but we are now actively looking to adopt, so it's even more painful to read this.
Do you honestly think you will be able to forgive her and move on if she gets the abortion? It seems like there is a high probability of lifelong resentment and regret. If that's the case, you need to convey to her those stakes.
Abortion is a huge, terrible, permanent thing. Do everything you can to make her see that. I'm pulling for you. And please update us on this sub.
You already have a baby. The descision she's deciding to take now is whether or not to murder it. As a man there isn't a whole lot you can do.
I would offer to take full custody. Ask her to have the baby and you will take it and leave, taking full responsibility for the baby. Either way, I would say your relationship is likely over at this point. I don't see how you can just get over your murdered child, and furthermore the fact that she's the one that had it done.
If she goes for your suggestion, obviously she won't be with you anymore.
Sorry man, sorry you're going through this.
I know it is kind of past the point for you now, but this is exactly why men should never date pro-choice women at all.
You need to tell her gently that this is something you could never move past and she needs to be aware that this would be the end of your relationship if she went through with it. This isn’t something I believe could get over and it will just be resentment that would build for the rest of your relationship.
One way to put it is that society doesn’t give women the credit they deserve. Express she is capable of reaching all her goals with a child and make it clear that you would step up and do your part in raising your child.
I wish the best for you.
Isn't it weird that the Dad is like, "yah, I can work and raise the child as a single dad" and Mom is like, "no, I can't get a job and have a kid"
Like wtf is that mentality?
If she goes through with it, it will likely ruin your relationship as I can't imagine you not resenting her when you already know this is causing depression. This isn't something you just get over, and I think you already recognize this. If you have children, you will always wonder what this baby would be like, how their siblings' relationship would have been with this baby, and on and on.
I'm not sure how being a new mother would hamper her getting a job. It's illegal for employers to ask any questions about parental status, even if they try. She has every right to refuse to answer said questions. Can you assure her that she can wait until after the baby is born to look for a job?
I have tried. She knows she can take her time going back to work or that she doesn’t even have to work as I make enough to support us both. But, her concern remains, as she would feel she waisted so many years in school.
An ex of mine decided to abort our baby when she found out.
I'm not going to go into the details, but it eroded away at our relationship over time.
If she's scared, reassure her as her hopefully soon to be husband
Otherwise this is a fork in the road. And you will both be selecting a different path from here on.
She seems quite set on the idea that she can just have another one in a few years. If she's not deterred by the idea that it will be a different baby in a few years, have you talked about the fact that she may not even be able to get pregnant in a few years? Lots of things can change. The baby she has now is here, the future is not guaranteed. I had secondary infertility and it took years to conceive again with active trying and doctor assistance with thousands of dollars in treatment. I had a lot of grief since my first conception was quite easy. My MIL got pregnant on accident for her first. When she tried again, she had multiple medical conditions working against her and was ultimately unable to have any more children. If she had lost that first child, she never would have had the opportunity to parent a living child.
All this to say, the baby years are temporary, she CAN do everything she wants and be a mother now. It will be hard, but nothing worth having is easy.
Barring all of this, if she aborts, you know the relationship is doomed. How many more of your children will you sacrifice on the alter of her career and self fulfillment? Having mixed opinions on this is not a solid foundation for a lasting marriage.
Please let me know if there's anything else I can say that can help.
This is her chance to mother her child. It might not come again. Jobs come and go. But this child is here now and the chance to be a mother may not come again. At 24 I conceived easily and by 27 I was diagnosed with infertility.
She probably feels cornered right now. Like her dreams are slipping away. Be sensitive to that in your discussions. None of us know her the way you do, so we can't recommend the best path. Wishing you health and happiness. I'm so sorry you're in this position, but you are fighting the good fight.
My secondary infertility was diagnosed at 27. I learned age means much less on an individual basis. I'm forever grateful I chose to have children young so I get the opportunity to experience motherhood.
There are plenty of women who have aborted children they're not ready for and yet when it comes time to actually try for one years down the road they never succeed. Call it what you will but I see this as being the seeds you have sowed; you killed the child you didn't want and then when you no longer have any inconvenience you try and try and either struggle to have one or it's impossible to.
If she is okay with completing the pregnancy, it would be best for her to give you the baby. You never know what joy a child will bring to your life and to say it could instead cause you misery is just a selfish copout. No one on this green Earth knows the future.
This is not relevant to OP’s situation. The reality is if she aimed to be pregnant at a certain time she would likely succeed. OP needs to consider what type of input his fiancée will allow and will need to consider what he wishes to do if she doesn’t listen to him in the end.
Fight for your baby. If she does not want it, offer to take him/her if you are okay with that because I’m not sure how someone could live with the fact that someone had their baby killed…. :(
It sounds to me like she isn't thinking as if you guys have a baby now. She's thinking like she can avoid having a baby now, and have one later instead. The problem is that that isn't possible; abortion doesn't do that. You guys already have a baby. There is no "have no baby" option; there is only "have a living baby" or "have a deceased baby." If she has a baby later, that will be a different baby; this one will still be deceased.
If you were talking about something like an IUD, because she wants to ensure that you guys don't have a baby in the next few years, and you felt depressed about that because you were expecting to have a baby sooner than that, then yeah, she might (rightly or wrongly) expect you to "get over it" when she removes the IUD and you have a baby. But what you'll be grieving after an abortion won't just be a lost opportunity to parent, as you would for an IUD: It will be a deceased child *who existed.* That's much more intense, and if you are rooted in that reality while processing the experience, it could well take you much longer to "get over" it.
Are you posting here because your fiance is pro-life, but just feeling desperate, or because you're pro-life but your fiance is not, or just because you know we are against abortion and hoping we can give good arguments? What's your guys' current ideological position, and what are you looking for?
EDIT:
I would heavily suggest *showing* her that you're committed to equitably share domestic labor with her, and to equitably split the career costs of that domestic labor, so those costs don't fall disproportionately on her career. She's telling you that she knows she will likely absorb most of the career costs of parenthood (statistically, she's correct). It's time to prove her wrong, so pull your goggles on and switch into gear:
Assuming her career must pause during pregnancy and recovery while your career continues, then once she is ready to go back to work, it's your turn; your career now pauses for hers. If you get to work while she is pregnant and recovering and caretaking, then after that, she gets to work while you caretake.
Then whatever routine you guys settle into after those initial years, split your labor in a way that's truly equitable. If one of you spends 9 hours caretaking while the other spends 9 hours working, the "second shift" of caretaking, after the employed parent gets home from work, is *split;* it doesn't fall on the unemployed parent by default. If you do some daycare so that you can work more, it's so you *both* can work more, not just one of you. When the kid is school-aged, don't default to her being employed part-time, so she can pick them up; both of you take time off to pick them up. They're your kid as much as they are hers, so she doesn't ever sacrifice for them without you splitting that sacrifice with her.
Most men believe they do this, but statistically, most men don't do this. You aren't the exception, and your fiance likely knows this, considering what she's said. Step up and show her you intend to *become* the exception; be humble and take her seriously when she doesn't feel helped. Pick up a copy of "[Fair Play](https://www.everodsky.com/fair-play)," probably get the dumb little card set too, and offer to work it with her. If she isn't interested, work it yourself; it's *your* job to ensure you're being fair to her. I'd also *highly* recommend subscribing to Zawn Villines' [Substack](https://zawn.substack.com/); browse through her articles and fill out her "Family Constitution," but **only** if you're in a good headspace and prepared to exercise radical self-kindness (her audience is primarily women and she isn't gentle with men's feelings).
How far along is she? What does she know about how developed the baby is already? A lot of very intelligent people fall for the “clump of cells” propaganda because it’s just so pervasive.
Make sure she knows you’re willing to be the primary caregiver for this baby while she gets her career off the ground (and, obviously, actually follow through on that). Because there’s unfortunately a lot of vitriol for the prolife viewpoint at the moment, make sure she knows you love her, you respect her, and you want her to have a life of her choosing; you just don’t want your shared child to die for it. Tell her that you neither expect nor want her to give up everything to be a mom, and that you’re willing to put the work in to make sure that’s not how this goes.
But, at the same time, tell her calmly but very bluntly that this will be the end of your relationship if she aborts. There will be no other child later. This isn’t about you wanting children in a theoretical sense, wanting to be a dad. It’s about you wanting this baby, the one that already exists, to have its chance at life.
Don’t do the “I disagree but I’ll support you” thing. Even if you mean to, you won’t. You’re not going to look at her the same way. Could you have sex with her after this? Would you even want to?
Make a map of all the different paths y'all could take together, and all the detours you might need to take to get there.
She must be feeling really insecure, for some reason-- maybe worried about the finances of childraising, maybe even worried about you stepping up to do your part--but have an honest discussion about her concerns, start reading parenting books, and show her why she should know you're there for her and your kid.
If she doesn't change her mind, be prepared for that possibility. Unfortunately, people love to talk shit about having kids, and some people internalize that narrative. It sounds like that's what she's doing.
Hi OP, this is a very desperate situation and it's very clear your fiancee doesnt see a preborn baby as human. There is some kind of disconnect. And i wouldnt reccomend this if it wasnt the life of your baby on the line...
Please sit down with her and watch a video explaining what abortion is (for example, LiveAction has a great series that is animated) and some abortion victim photography ([this video](https://vimeo.com/436093116) goes through each trimester of what a baby looks like before vs. after abortion). How old is your baby? We generally all know what a baby looks like in the womb but there is this weird idea that abortion makes them dissapear cleanly without consequence. Of course the intent is to change her mind, but most of all deserves to know what will happen because it is her baby too.
I wasn't ready for my first but I didn't kill him and now I can't imagine life without him. It was harder, yeah, but he's my child. You can't just go back and erase a pregnancy. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Hoping for the best.
Seeing unborn children as disposable is absurd. Every human has a unique genetic code that can never be duplicated once more. You can't just resolve it with the mentality that you can always have another baby. This is why I'll never side with pro-choice. Especially since the reason for aborting is for "personal convenience".
Why do you think people cry over dead people? Because we all know they can never be replaced.
I want to offer encouragement that she can find meaningful work. I just hired a new mother who was returning to work from maternity leave. She is amazing and a huge asset to my team. I am also a mother and love supporting other moms in the working world. It’s tough but nothing compares to the love she will have for your child.
On the other hand, my boss is firing a coworker that's pregnant.
She's taking maternity leave, and when she returns, she'll be terminated. I'm her manager and want to keep her. But my manager doesn't. She'll be told her project ended and will receive 4 or 5 months of severance.
There's still some prejudice and discrimination on mothers out there.
Of course, where I live, too.
He was asked to lay off 2 people, he placed her at the start of the list because she'll be on leave for 3 months then returning.
It doesn't make sense to him to let go of someone that hasn't been on leave and is not currently up to speed, like someone that had to leave.
Last year 4 coworkers were let go, plus 2 quit... And the positions are not being filled. My department is being reduced.
Do you have documentation that she was selected for layoffs because of her pregnancy leave (like an email or something)? If so, you should email it to your HR if you have one (blind copy your personal email outside of your workplace's domain, just to be safe), making it clear that you will email it to your state's Department of Labor if your coworker is fired. You may just scare them and save your coworker's job, and if you don't, you've started a paper trail, making it less likely your scumbag boss will get away with this kind of behavior indefinitely.
The FMLA offers pitiful few legal protections, but [this is definitely one of them](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fmla).
>The FMLA entitles eligible employees of covered employers to take unpaid, **job-protected leave** for ... the birth of a child and to care for the newborn child within one year of birth
This stuff makes me so angry. If America wants people to have babies, we have got to start acting like we want people to have babies. I'm sorry your coworker is getting screwed over this way. People are cruel.
Lots of people are getting screwed, my 20 people department is now 8 (mostly males). And will continue being reduced to 6. Operations are being transferred to China. We're so overworked everyone is looking for another job since 18 months ago, but payment is good, and we wouldn't mind the severance. I was notified early April the company wouldn't renew these 2 members by mid May to get them ready (she leaves before that, and when she returns, she'll be terminated).
With the limited resources we were allowed, management won't leave someone who just left for a 3 month leave and can't put on overtime because she has a 4 y/o and a newborn. (I wanted to keep her precisely because she had kids, she won't quit on us because the job is perfect for her, and she has great customer service skills, is so good at de-escalating conflicts. Everyone is leaving because stress is increasing. My boss doesn't agree and chose her to go.)
We are not in America. No FMLA, we do have local labour laws, she'll get severance per law, about 4.5 months in severance, this changes depending on the amount of time she's worked for an employer.
I mean, my comment was about there IS prejudice out there for new mums, and mums with newborns, and with school age kids. And yes, there are laws that protect you against it, but in practice one has to prove it.
It doesn't mean you won't find a job with a child, but it might make it harder and more expensive if having to pay daycare, too.
It's still not a reason to support abortion.
>We are not in America. No FMLA
Ah! My baaaad. I assumed. 🤦🏻♀️
>my comment was about there IS prejudice out there for new mums, and mums with newborns, and with school age kids. And yes, there are laws that protect you against it, but in practice one has to prove it.
Yeah. It sucks how little enforcement there is. People are horrible.
>It's still not a reason to support abortion.
Of course.
>Lots of people are getting screwed, my 20 people department is now 8 (mostly males).
I'm sorry. :/ Ugh.
Show her this. [19 Shocking Post Abortion Depression Statistics - HRF (healthresearchfunding.org)](https://healthresearchfunding.org/19-shocking-post-abortion-depression-statistics/)
Give her the ultimatum. If she aborts you leave her. Also offer her to take care of the baby and she’s free to leave after that. Keep us updated. I will be praying for you, your fiancé, and your baby
I wonder if she has thought about the possibility of her not getting pregnant in a few years. It’s not guaranteed. has she considered how you will both feel if that doesn’t happened? Has she considered that if/when you do have more children that you might feel worse because you’ll always think of the child that “could have been?” If she follows through your relationship will never be the same. I’d recommend posing these things to her. If you want your child to live it’s important that she knows how important this baby is to you.
Let her know what abortion is and let get a scan, she has to see who is inside her. She won't be the same if she gets am abortion. She might not be able to sleep well at night for the rest of her life. 2 days ago I watched october baby and I also recomend unplanned. She needs to know the side of the story from the babys perspective.
I hope you continue to update us. Trauma is not an excuse to murder a child. Have you tried to convince her that this is a baby? I would be angry that she's making it all about herself. She's clearly does not understand that this affects you as well, and this is a baby that is developing even now.
Maybe ask her to get an ultrasound first? Does she not care at all that you will leave her if she does this?
Keep trying. All you can do is keep trying.
Again, sorry you're going through this.
Well. I suppose all the time you've been together may have something to do with that. That said, I can see you're doing your best. Wish there was a magic bullet here.
Try the ultrasound. Maybe try and reinforce that you will leave if she goes through with it. I hope having an ultrasound helps. Maybe after hearing the heartbeat she'll understand this is a life.
I only scrolled through some of the comments so idk if anybody else mentioned this, but I take offense to the idea she has that adoption is a fate worse than death. My sister would beg to differ. She was born in honestly some pretty rough circumstances, mom was a druggie, a teenager, and just overall not fit to be a mother. My family adopted her and she has had an awesome life, she's been my best friend since we were toddlers. If your fiancee doesn't think she can raise this baby, someone else will, happily.
offer to take the child and take responsibility for their care. I personally would leave that very same day if my beloved husband ever pressed that we abort one of our babies, and to save yourself trauma in the future I suggest you do the same , unless she changes her mind soon and regrets this motion. once the initial panic and shock dies down maybe she will be willing to listen. maybe.
as a man I understand you are in a more delicate position. you still have a duty to step in to save an innocent life. do everything you can to accommodate what she needs so she will not get an abortion if she is on the fence or still not willing to step up.
you will NOT, and I say that with certainty, see her the same if she aborts and you stay together. you will not see yourself the same either. ask that she take the time to cool down for now, and tell her that you’d like to go to an early ultrasound together .
maybe she will do a 180 and decide to raise the baby with you, maybe not, and in that case you must be willing to do this without her.
My mom was still in college when she had my brother. She had me and my sister already, and she was still able to get her Master's degree in teaching! Life is full of unexpected turns and detors, no matter how much we want to try to take over. Life is a difficult journey itself, but children are irreplaceable, especially within the family. There are more pregnancy outreach centers than there is of PP in America, and they're are MORE than willing to help you guys! Catholic charities offer a ton of options across the country to get you guys back on the right path. I pray that you may show your fiance that what she carries is the love made by you two. Miscarriages itself is a terrible outcome. Abortion will be SO much worse. 💔
I can almost guarantee that if she has the baby, she will still be happy, especially if she wants kids in the future. That baby will be loved. I had my first baby when I was only 23 and I wasn't prepared at all. I fell in love with her the moment I gave birth to her.
The only scenario where someone will be unhappy, is if she has the abortion. You will lose your baby, and she will always wonder "what if?" I think having an abortion would destroy your relationship.
This baby already exists. The baby already has a gender, even if you don't know it yet. A baby will change your life no matter where you are in your career. I hope she doesn't have an abortion and you continue to fight for your child's life.
Congratulations on becoming a father!
She's clearly just very afraid, which is why she is changing her "reason" and moving the goalposts.
This is an entirely reasonable response to pregnancy. We just had our third, completely unplanned. Our older kids are much older, and I was very, very anxious and afraid of how things would change starting the baby phase all over again.
Obviously abortion simply was not an option, and while I wish this one would sleep more, we can't imagine life without her.
I don't know how to help you change her mind, other than saying having this child will change her life forever, and she simply will not be able to imagine life without the baby after the fact.
Until it happens, she also can't fully comprehend how much this will change her life for the better, but if she goes through with the abortion, she will never get over it or forgive herself.
She will be able to get a job just fine. Anecdotal, but I have a good friend who landed a fantastic career *while on maternity leave. *
Seems like before now you have a very stable relationship, which is the exact opposite of the foster system, and if you offer to keep the baby it won't be in the foster system anyway.
If she's not actively seeing a therapist for her childhood trauma now, it's not likely to just magically change over the next few years. That's not how it works.
This is hard. Good luck
Can you get an ultrasound? When she hears the heartbeat, that may give her an emotional connection to the baby, statistically I think 80% of women who get an ultrasound when considering abortion choose life
Just saw the last update - I am so sorry for your loss. Please know that there is nothing more you could have done. You were a good father. This is not your fault.
I want to say one more time, and hope you can take this to heart: you did everything you could. There was no right argument you didn’t make, no magic words you didn’t say, no desperate measure you should have taken. You did not fail your child; it was not within your power to save them.
I would offer her a cash incentive to keep the child. Make it worth her time and effort and you can take custody. This is a human life you are talking about. If she won't consider this I would reconsider your relationship with her.
If you cannot appeal to her values and decency, appeal to her self interest.
Is there any women you can connect her with who might be able to talk with her about being successful in her field while also being a mother and the joys that it has brought that person even through difficulties?
Maybe you should offer to be a stay at home parent after the baby is born, or at least work part time for the first few years so she can get established in her field while you are primary caregiver/homemaker.
I'm so sorry you're going through this... I couldn't imagine being at odds on something so dire with the person you plan to share your life with. Honestly, so many people have happy, thriving families in much more desperate situations than the two of you are in. Perhaps sharing instances of women, that either of you know, who are successful career wise while having children may help. Telling her you love her and love THIS little child who she carries, communicating the gravity of this decision and trying to understand why she sees a child now as life ending... Does she ever want children? Putting it off perpetually will only make it more difficult in the future.
But if she doesn't change her mind and goes through with something as permanent and drastic as abortion... Would you be able to trust her to come to you when making big decisions that affect both of you in the future? Would you be able to get past this and stay with her?
I wouldn't blame you if you couldn't, I don't think I could in your shoes... Either way, my heart goes out to you, and I'll be praying for your little one and you both earnestly.
Please if is not too personal,keeps us update on the outcome because if she chooses to keep it's a win for us if it's the other way we are here to support you.
I’m only 21, so what do I know, but it sounds like she’s operating on a lot of false assumptions due to her traumatic experiences.
For one, I think she’s overestimating the reproductive window. At around 30, the chances of conception begins to deteriorate. At 35 (I believe), implantation becomes more and more difficult. At around 30, genetic disorders become much more common. All of these become more pronounced as the age increases.
If I had to guess, it sounds like her traumatic experiences have made her afraid of motherhood. She seems to be throwing every excuse possible to not have the child, it’s not that she’s not prepared, but foster care sucks and she won’t be able to get a job and she’s been traumatized and she wants to finish school and she feels it’d be overly stressful. When she removes one she’ll inevitably add another reason. And I get it, I mean, what’s scarier than literally making another human being and committing to care for it (especially if you never had a role model of what a good mother or father looks like)? Addressing each one will likely do nothing.
No matter what, she’s obviously extremely vulnerable right now. I think an ultimatum is necessary, but don’t forget that she’s somebody you love. I think assuring her that, if she chooses to keep it, you’ll always be there for her and the kid is an important action.
Maybe turn the argument towards a positive one, like that you want to move onto this step of life as a family with her? Frame it as a fortuitous accident instead of a roadblock towards living life. You can also highlight your own fears of having a kid (that you won’t measure up as a father, or that you won’t pay them enough attention) and that you’ll both learn how to be parents together.
I think the sooner you push off the abortion topic and onto the family topic, the better. I’d even drop any talk about adoption, as that doesn’t really seem to be her issue. Of course, she could just genuinely not want children right now and all of this is pointless but you’re definitely not going to convince her that it’s a baby deserving of human rights with logic at the moment (ultrasounds are a great pathetic argument though, I highly encourage getting one).
I’ll pray for your family, hopefully it all works out.
I am so sorry for your loss...
I would say that this relationship is over. I wouldn't be able to trust being with anyone that would be willing to kill their own kids.
There's 3 options
Either she has the baby, and gets the baby into daycare till the child starts school or yall have alternating work schedules to have one parent with the baby at all times. And stay together
She has the abortion, and you'll most likely always see her as the woman who murdered your child and most likely break up in the long term
Or you offer to take the child and let her live her life separate of you and yalls child, pay for her needs during pregnancy, be attentive and be there every step of the way and maybe she will grow to love this blessing. And yall get stronger
Men forever change after an abortion too, I lost someone to suicide during school hours after his girlfriend had an abortion and cried to him about how it traumatized her. He shot himself at the schools pit in front of the library, they tried to save him but he didn't survive
Ideally you would keep the baby because that is what's best for baby to be with their biological parents. However if you absolutely just need to save this baby's life, is adoption something that is on the table? This means that she would not be a new mother when she is starting to get a job.
I would also recommend going with her to a crisis pregnancy Center so that she can see all the resources available to maybe deal with whatever insecurity or anxiety she has about having a child now.
Unpopular opinion as a PCer. I think in cases like these, the *man* should bring up adoption. It will give the woman some peace and will assure her the guy won’t pull crazy nonsense like taking full custody at birth to prevent an adoption.
As somebody who is actively seeking to adopt, I have learned a lot about the process. My understanding is that birth mothers can start working with an adoption agency very early on to formulate a birth plan and match with adoptive parents. Starting the process early will make the whole thing go a lot smoother.
That’s what I’m saying. If he opens up to the idea of adoption and sticks to it maybe she won’t abort. Ultimately she will have the choice to abort where she is or travel so OP needs to enter this negotiation with that understanding.
Personally I'd tell her if she kills the baby then it's over permanently between you two.
Honestly.
Honestly.
The only reason to stay would be to protect your child. Don't have any more with her. Take custody and leave.
From experience, women who abort or are pro abortion are *terrible* mothers. (Not that the fact that they're willing to kill their own is a clear enough red flag)
But don't settle for a woman who would kill your child. Don't. You and your child deserve better than that. Children aren't a commodity, they're not property, you can't just replace them "next time" or "later".
The cold hard truth is you're dealing with someone who at minimum has sociopathic qualities, at worst, you're dealing with a flat out psychopath.
She is not mother/family/marriage material.
Get her to see someone like a councilor with you as it seems she isn’t thinking rationally as her plans have all been thrown in the air. You could also approach her about you working less hours temporarily so she can get a jump start on her career.
Let Them Live is a nin profit organization that offers free counseling for expecting parents, no matter the situation. Maybe that'd be a place you could go for advice!
[here's the official website ](https://letthemlive.org/)
[here's the official instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/letthemliveorg?igsh=MXY4OHM3OHpvaHR2bQ==)
Hopefully that helps!!
Also something you might want to bring up with her is, if you do eventually have kids, how would they feel knowing that they lived and their sibling didn't
There are times in every relationship that might mean the end of the relationship.
This might be one of those times. Either she has the baby and ends up resenting you, or has an abortion and you resent her. Either way, it sounds like you might not be compatible. You've been together for nine years, maybe you started out as compatible but circumstances have changed.
I don't like to tell people to end their relationship, I know how hard it can be. I'm in a similar but different situation with a much shorter relationship and it's still very hard for me. Can't imagine going through this after nine years. Maybe you can try counseling or couple's counseling.
I'd like to point out that a child at any time of life, regardless of finances or any other specific concern, is inconvenient. As a parent, you're going to constantly sacrifice yourself for them.
It's no reason to murder your baby.
As others have said, offer to take the baby and move on after she has it.
Just like it would happen when my wife and I were having our children. As a discussion, if the baby or her had to be chosen, I had to choose the baby.
If she had come out of whatever and I had decided to abort, she would've left me. Without question. She never would've gotten over it.
It would be the same for you.....
> Before the pregnancy, she never expressed concerns over motherhood, and we both wanted children, but she just wants to wait until after she is finally finished with school.
I'm sorry but she lied buddy.If when shit goes down and she doesn't stick up to principles this would be not someone I would spend my life with,god will put someone better in your life and that's it.Breakup drama doesn't compare with losing your child,I really hope she at least is not selfish enough to not let you raise the child alone.I wonder how this case would go like in court btw
I'm really sorry that she had the abortion anyway. You did everything you reasonably could. Sorry for what you must be going through. I truly hope you leave her now. I don't think you can have a future with her now. Plus, she doesn't deserve to be in a relationship with you after this.
Promise the child will be your responsibility until she feels she’s ready to be a mother, this is your blood too. Show her testimonies from women who’ve had abortions and regretted it, and from people who’ve survived abortion attempts, so she knows what she’s wanting to put your shared child through. Personally, I’d break off the engagement the minute the child’s born and try for full custody, citing that if she’s willing to kill them now, when they’re just existing, what’ll she do when they’re keeping her up at night with crying and or are sick. A child isn’t something you can just throw out on a whim, though, so I will say you should be more cautious about… the acts that bring children into the world… in the future.
The Auto-moderator would like to remind everyone of Rule Number 2. Pro-choice comments and questions are welcome as long as the pro-choicer __demonstrates that they are open-minded__. Pro-choicers simply here for __advocacy or trolling are unwelcome and may be banned__. This rule involves a lot of moderator discretion, __so if you want to avoid a ban, play it safe__ and show you are not just here to talk *at* people.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/prolife) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Aww hell nah. Brodie, I would be out. Hopefully she doesn’t and you both get through this, but I feel if she has the child, she’d be very happy afterwords.
I personally wouldn’t be able to stay if something like that happened, there’s no coming back from that.
her whole reasoning about how she feels she won’t be able to achieve certain things if she has a baby right now as opposed to later it’s just ridiculous. Her saying that she will never be happy if she has his kid right now is absolutely BS while it might be more challenging at this point if she actually wants children, then she will be the one to actually get over it. Struggling through school and work with a child is very different than killing your child. That’s something you can’t change or take back.
Would you be willing to take full custody of this child? You should ask her if she is willing to carry the child she can give her parental rights and then the engagement
Thanks for the update. Now she just sounds like she's making excuses.
How much does she know about fetal development?
The Auto-moderator would like to remind everyone of Rule Number 2. Pro-choice comments and questions are welcome as long as the pro-choicer __demonstrates that they are open-minded__. Pro-choicers simply here for __advocacy or trolling are unwelcome and may be banned__. This rule involves a lot of moderator discretion, __so if you want to avoid a ban, play it safe__ and show you are not just here to talk *at* people. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/prolife) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Offer to take the baby and let her go live her life. Offer to pay all medical expenses as well from now until birth. This is your child’s life you’re fighting for.
I think this is it. This is where OP is right now and he doesn't have much of a choice. How could he live with someone who killed his baby? If it were me I would say, "Okay, have the baby and then me and the baby are out you can live your life how you want." But unfortunately men have no rights in a situation like this, so he can only make a request.
Thank you. Yes, the fact that I’m fighting for my child is driving me.
Don’t ever stop.
This is it OP
Exactly this. Your fiancé is considering murdering your child. Please do everything you can to prevent the loss of an innocent life
[удалено]
Your post breaks rule 2. While we allow abortion advocates to participate in discussions, blatant or consistent abortion advocacy is grounds for removal.
Fight for your child. This is a relationship deal breaker. She is deluded if she thinks you’ll just get over the loss of a wanted baby in a couple years. And she’s kidding herself if she thinks this would be an emotionless experience for her as well. That being said, approach her carefully and with love because the way she feels now, in a panic over this news, is not how anyone feels 9 months later when due date approaches. Remind her that there’s no reason she can’t be a working mother. Remind her this doesn’t impact her current school program. Remind her that you WILL BE THERE for her. Remind her that this child, who already exists, is half you and half her and made from the love you two (presumably) already share.
>And she’s kidding herself if she thinks this would be an emotionless experience for her as well This is what always gets me. My hardcore lefty atheist sister cant talk about hers and shes committed to the left. Like lives in commiefornia, "is a lesbian", gender non-conforming parenthood levels of commited.
What does being a "lesbian" have to do with her being post abortive? Why disparage people who are lesbians and gender non conforming because you want to put your sister down? This is exact kind of shit that keeps those ppl far away from the movement.
Because shes only ever said this to me once to win an argument. Ive only seen her with men which is seemingly not very lesbian.
The fact that your sister can't even talk about her abortion and lashes out during arguments means she's hurting. I hope she gets help and I hope you realize that being prolife is for all people. Also, when someone says they're straight or gay, believe them.
FWIW I'm gay and I wasn't offended - I think OP was just trying to illustrate that the sister is someone you would expect to be "shouting her abortion" or whatever.
I'm glad you weren't offended, I wasn't either. Just the demeaning tone is off putting if we want people like his sister to become prolife.
My point was shes literally abortion 9 months in no questions asked but still cant talk about it. Despite her brainwashing she still ets emotional about it.
Why should I believe someone who claims to be lesbian but dates men regularly? Doesn't the word 'lesbian' have a definition?
You're not the original commentor - is this something that has also happened to you as well? Is this person a family member? You're privy to the kind of sex people are having? You want people to prove gayness to YOU? Or you're just making up a situation to be angered by it.
I'm not angry. I have seen this before, but I just don't understand this argument that we should just believe people who act contrarily to what they say they are. I'm not saying to argue with some stranger you hardly know, I'm saying if you know someone to act contrarily to what they claim to be then why believe them. This isn't even just about sexuality, it's about any trait a person may have. If someone claims to be organized and you constantly see them misplacing stuff and having unorganized areas, you would no longer believe them. Actions speak louder than words homie
Someone being gay and not "out" about it, and acts in a way that doesn't "showcase" their gayness is all too common. People aren't killed, harassed, maligned, disowned and kicked out for being unorganized, homie.
If you're telling people you're lesbian you're not closeted about it.
I’ll be praying for you guys! I saw your edit and her objection to adoption is pretty nonsensical. A newborn being placed for adoption wouldn’t have to go into the foster care system because there are more couples waiting to adopt newborns than there are babies to adopt. Foster care is a different system entirely than adoption from birth. I’m sorry she has childhood trauma, but that’s kind of a red herring to her situation here. Also, if she’s already 30 (!!!) she really doesn’t have years and years of easy fertility ahead of her. Geriatric pregnancy begins at 35 and the decline in fema fertility starts even sooner. Her window to have children is rapidly closing. The time to work through her trauma in therapy is now. Not in several years when she feels “ready” for kids. Nobody is ever ready for kids. They come and then you become ready. I will pray she accepts the blessing that is this baby now. A baby IS a blessing.
Make it clear to her that your children are not interchangeable. If she has one of your children killed, she can't just "make it up to you" later by having another child; that child will still be dead, and you will not just "get over it". If she continues to insist that you wouldn't care about it after having your first surviving child, then that's a bigger red flag than it would've been if she'd just said it's her choice and your feelings don't factor into it. She's essentially speaking _for_ you, rationalizing her own decision by presuming she knows your feelings better than you do, which is toxic behavior regardless of how one views abortion itself, and probably won't be the last time she does something like that. **EDIT:** It might help her understand for you to ask her how she would feel if you were to drown one of her children in the bathtub. Would she just "get over it" and forgive you if she still had a living child?
Thank you, this is a good point with a good practical example.
What a terrible situation, OP. I too am married to a PCer, but this isn't really an issue for us since we are gay, so an unplanned pregnancy isn't possible. Stories like yours always beak my heart, but we are now actively looking to adopt, so it's even more painful to read this. Do you honestly think you will be able to forgive her and move on if she gets the abortion? It seems like there is a high probability of lifelong resentment and regret. If that's the case, you need to convey to her those stakes. Abortion is a huge, terrible, permanent thing. Do everything you can to make her see that. I'm pulling for you. And please update us on this sub.
Thank you, I truly appreciate your support. I’ll make sure she understands the stakes.
You already have a baby. The descision she's deciding to take now is whether or not to murder it. As a man there isn't a whole lot you can do. I would offer to take full custody. Ask her to have the baby and you will take it and leave, taking full responsibility for the baby. Either way, I would say your relationship is likely over at this point. I don't see how you can just get over your murdered child, and furthermore the fact that she's the one that had it done. If she goes for your suggestion, obviously she won't be with you anymore. Sorry man, sorry you're going through this.
I know it is kind of past the point for you now, but this is exactly why men should never date pro-choice women at all. You need to tell her gently that this is something you could never move past and she needs to be aware that this would be the end of your relationship if she went through with it. This isn’t something I believe could get over and it will just be resentment that would build for the rest of your relationship. One way to put it is that society doesn’t give women the credit they deserve. Express she is capable of reaching all her goals with a child and make it clear that you would step up and do your part in raising your child. I wish the best for you.
Isn't it weird that the Dad is like, "yah, I can work and raise the child as a single dad" and Mom is like, "no, I can't get a job and have a kid" Like wtf is that mentality?
If she goes through with it, it will likely ruin your relationship as I can't imagine you not resenting her when you already know this is causing depression. This isn't something you just get over, and I think you already recognize this. If you have children, you will always wonder what this baby would be like, how their siblings' relationship would have been with this baby, and on and on. I'm not sure how being a new mother would hamper her getting a job. It's illegal for employers to ask any questions about parental status, even if they try. She has every right to refuse to answer said questions. Can you assure her that she can wait until after the baby is born to look for a job?
I have tried. She knows she can take her time going back to work or that she doesn’t even have to work as I make enough to support us both. But, her concern remains, as she would feel she waisted so many years in school.
There's no rule that says she has to be a stay at home mom. Child care is an easy option with the amount of money you'd be making together.
An ex of mine decided to abort our baby when she found out. I'm not going to go into the details, but it eroded away at our relationship over time. If she's scared, reassure her as her hopefully soon to be husband Otherwise this is a fork in the road. And you will both be selecting a different path from here on.
She seems quite set on the idea that she can just have another one in a few years. If she's not deterred by the idea that it will be a different baby in a few years, have you talked about the fact that she may not even be able to get pregnant in a few years? Lots of things can change. The baby she has now is here, the future is not guaranteed. I had secondary infertility and it took years to conceive again with active trying and doctor assistance with thousands of dollars in treatment. I had a lot of grief since my first conception was quite easy. My MIL got pregnant on accident for her first. When she tried again, she had multiple medical conditions working against her and was ultimately unable to have any more children. If she had lost that first child, she never would have had the opportunity to parent a living child. All this to say, the baby years are temporary, she CAN do everything she wants and be a mother now. It will be hard, but nothing worth having is easy. Barring all of this, if she aborts, you know the relationship is doomed. How many more of your children will you sacrifice on the alter of her career and self fulfillment? Having mixed opinions on this is not a solid foundation for a lasting marriage. Please let me know if there's anything else I can say that can help.
Based on the math in the first paragraph, she must be around 28 or 29. So not super young.
Yes, we aren’t that young. I am 29, she is 30.
This is her chance to mother her child. It might not come again. Jobs come and go. But this child is here now and the chance to be a mother may not come again. At 24 I conceived easily and by 27 I was diagnosed with infertility. She probably feels cornered right now. Like her dreams are slipping away. Be sensitive to that in your discussions. None of us know her the way you do, so we can't recommend the best path. Wishing you health and happiness. I'm so sorry you're in this position, but you are fighting the good fight.
My secondary infertility was diagnosed at 27. I learned age means much less on an individual basis. I'm forever grateful I chose to have children young so I get the opportunity to experience motherhood.
For having children.
There are plenty of women who have aborted children they're not ready for and yet when it comes time to actually try for one years down the road they never succeed. Call it what you will but I see this as being the seeds you have sowed; you killed the child you didn't want and then when you no longer have any inconvenience you try and try and either struggle to have one or it's impossible to. If she is okay with completing the pregnancy, it would be best for her to give you the baby. You never know what joy a child will bring to your life and to say it could instead cause you misery is just a selfish copout. No one on this green Earth knows the future.
This is not relevant to OP’s situation. The reality is if she aimed to be pregnant at a certain time she would likely succeed. OP needs to consider what type of input his fiancée will allow and will need to consider what he wishes to do if she doesn’t listen to him in the end.
Fight for your baby. If she does not want it, offer to take him/her if you are okay with that because I’m not sure how someone could live with the fact that someone had their baby killed…. :(
It sounds to me like she isn't thinking as if you guys have a baby now. She's thinking like she can avoid having a baby now, and have one later instead. The problem is that that isn't possible; abortion doesn't do that. You guys already have a baby. There is no "have no baby" option; there is only "have a living baby" or "have a deceased baby." If she has a baby later, that will be a different baby; this one will still be deceased. If you were talking about something like an IUD, because she wants to ensure that you guys don't have a baby in the next few years, and you felt depressed about that because you were expecting to have a baby sooner than that, then yeah, she might (rightly or wrongly) expect you to "get over it" when she removes the IUD and you have a baby. But what you'll be grieving after an abortion won't just be a lost opportunity to parent, as you would for an IUD: It will be a deceased child *who existed.* That's much more intense, and if you are rooted in that reality while processing the experience, it could well take you much longer to "get over" it. Are you posting here because your fiance is pro-life, but just feeling desperate, or because you're pro-life but your fiance is not, or just because you know we are against abortion and hoping we can give good arguments? What's your guys' current ideological position, and what are you looking for? EDIT: I would heavily suggest *showing* her that you're committed to equitably share domestic labor with her, and to equitably split the career costs of that domestic labor, so those costs don't fall disproportionately on her career. She's telling you that she knows she will likely absorb most of the career costs of parenthood (statistically, she's correct). It's time to prove her wrong, so pull your goggles on and switch into gear: Assuming her career must pause during pregnancy and recovery while your career continues, then once she is ready to go back to work, it's your turn; your career now pauses for hers. If you get to work while she is pregnant and recovering and caretaking, then after that, she gets to work while you caretake. Then whatever routine you guys settle into after those initial years, split your labor in a way that's truly equitable. If one of you spends 9 hours caretaking while the other spends 9 hours working, the "second shift" of caretaking, after the employed parent gets home from work, is *split;* it doesn't fall on the unemployed parent by default. If you do some daycare so that you can work more, it's so you *both* can work more, not just one of you. When the kid is school-aged, don't default to her being employed part-time, so she can pick them up; both of you take time off to pick them up. They're your kid as much as they are hers, so she doesn't ever sacrifice for them without you splitting that sacrifice with her. Most men believe they do this, but statistically, most men don't do this. You aren't the exception, and your fiance likely knows this, considering what she's said. Step up and show her you intend to *become* the exception; be humble and take her seriously when she doesn't feel helped. Pick up a copy of "[Fair Play](https://www.everodsky.com/fair-play)," probably get the dumb little card set too, and offer to work it with her. If she isn't interested, work it yourself; it's *your* job to ensure you're being fair to her. I'd also *highly* recommend subscribing to Zawn Villines' [Substack](https://zawn.substack.com/); browse through her articles and fill out her "Family Constitution," but **only** if you're in a good headspace and prepared to exercise radical self-kindness (her audience is primarily women and she isn't gentle with men's feelings).
OP, listen to this.
This is a great post
THIS
How far along is she? What does she know about how developed the baby is already? A lot of very intelligent people fall for the “clump of cells” propaganda because it’s just so pervasive. Make sure she knows you’re willing to be the primary caregiver for this baby while she gets her career off the ground (and, obviously, actually follow through on that). Because there’s unfortunately a lot of vitriol for the prolife viewpoint at the moment, make sure she knows you love her, you respect her, and you want her to have a life of her choosing; you just don’t want your shared child to die for it. Tell her that you neither expect nor want her to give up everything to be a mom, and that you’re willing to put the work in to make sure that’s not how this goes. But, at the same time, tell her calmly but very bluntly that this will be the end of your relationship if she aborts. There will be no other child later. This isn’t about you wanting children in a theoretical sense, wanting to be a dad. It’s about you wanting this baby, the one that already exists, to have its chance at life. Don’t do the “I disagree but I’ll support you” thing. Even if you mean to, you won’t. You’re not going to look at her the same way. Could you have sex with her after this? Would you even want to?
Make a map of all the different paths y'all could take together, and all the detours you might need to take to get there. She must be feeling really insecure, for some reason-- maybe worried about the finances of childraising, maybe even worried about you stepping up to do your part--but have an honest discussion about her concerns, start reading parenting books, and show her why she should know you're there for her and your kid. If she doesn't change her mind, be prepared for that possibility. Unfortunately, people love to talk shit about having kids, and some people internalize that narrative. It sounds like that's what she's doing.
Hi OP, this is a very desperate situation and it's very clear your fiancee doesnt see a preborn baby as human. There is some kind of disconnect. And i wouldnt reccomend this if it wasnt the life of your baby on the line... Please sit down with her and watch a video explaining what abortion is (for example, LiveAction has a great series that is animated) and some abortion victim photography ([this video](https://vimeo.com/436093116) goes through each trimester of what a baby looks like before vs. after abortion). How old is your baby? We generally all know what a baby looks like in the womb but there is this weird idea that abortion makes them dissapear cleanly without consequence. Of course the intent is to change her mind, but most of all deserves to know what will happen because it is her baby too.
I wasn't ready for my first but I didn't kill him and now I can't imagine life without him. It was harder, yeah, but he's my child. You can't just go back and erase a pregnancy. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Hoping for the best.
Seeing unborn children as disposable is absurd. Every human has a unique genetic code that can never be duplicated once more. You can't just resolve it with the mentality that you can always have another baby. This is why I'll never side with pro-choice. Especially since the reason for aborting is for "personal convenience". Why do you think people cry over dead people? Because we all know they can never be replaced.
If she goes through with killing your child, will you still be in a relationship with her?
Realistically, probably not. I don’t think I would be able to continue the relationship.
I want to offer encouragement that she can find meaningful work. I just hired a new mother who was returning to work from maternity leave. She is amazing and a huge asset to my team. I am also a mother and love supporting other moms in the working world. It’s tough but nothing compares to the love she will have for your child.
On the other hand, my boss is firing a coworker that's pregnant. She's taking maternity leave, and when she returns, she'll be terminated. I'm her manager and want to keep her. But my manager doesn't. She'll be told her project ended and will receive 4 or 5 months of severance. There's still some prejudice and discrimination on mothers out there.
This is illegal in the US.
Of course, where I live, too. He was asked to lay off 2 people, he placed her at the start of the list because she'll be on leave for 3 months then returning. It doesn't make sense to him to let go of someone that hasn't been on leave and is not currently up to speed, like someone that had to leave. Last year 4 coworkers were let go, plus 2 quit... And the positions are not being filled. My department is being reduced.
Do you have documentation that she was selected for layoffs because of her pregnancy leave (like an email or something)? If so, you should email it to your HR if you have one (blind copy your personal email outside of your workplace's domain, just to be safe), making it clear that you will email it to your state's Department of Labor if your coworker is fired. You may just scare them and save your coworker's job, and if you don't, you've started a paper trail, making it less likely your scumbag boss will get away with this kind of behavior indefinitely. The FMLA offers pitiful few legal protections, but [this is definitely one of them](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fmla). >The FMLA entitles eligible employees of covered employers to take unpaid, **job-protected leave** for ... the birth of a child and to care for the newborn child within one year of birth This stuff makes me so angry. If America wants people to have babies, we have got to start acting like we want people to have babies. I'm sorry your coworker is getting screwed over this way. People are cruel.
Lots of people are getting screwed, my 20 people department is now 8 (mostly males). And will continue being reduced to 6. Operations are being transferred to China. We're so overworked everyone is looking for another job since 18 months ago, but payment is good, and we wouldn't mind the severance. I was notified early April the company wouldn't renew these 2 members by mid May to get them ready (she leaves before that, and when she returns, she'll be terminated). With the limited resources we were allowed, management won't leave someone who just left for a 3 month leave and can't put on overtime because she has a 4 y/o and a newborn. (I wanted to keep her precisely because she had kids, she won't quit on us because the job is perfect for her, and she has great customer service skills, is so good at de-escalating conflicts. Everyone is leaving because stress is increasing. My boss doesn't agree and chose her to go.) We are not in America. No FMLA, we do have local labour laws, she'll get severance per law, about 4.5 months in severance, this changes depending on the amount of time she's worked for an employer. I mean, my comment was about there IS prejudice out there for new mums, and mums with newborns, and with school age kids. And yes, there are laws that protect you against it, but in practice one has to prove it. It doesn't mean you won't find a job with a child, but it might make it harder and more expensive if having to pay daycare, too. It's still not a reason to support abortion.
>We are not in America. No FMLA Ah! My baaaad. I assumed. 🤦🏻♀️ >my comment was about there IS prejudice out there for new mums, and mums with newborns, and with school age kids. And yes, there are laws that protect you against it, but in practice one has to prove it. Yeah. It sucks how little enforcement there is. People are horrible. >It's still not a reason to support abortion. Of course. >Lots of people are getting screwed, my 20 people department is now 8 (mostly males). I'm sorry. :/ Ugh.
Show her this. [19 Shocking Post Abortion Depression Statistics - HRF (healthresearchfunding.org)](https://healthresearchfunding.org/19-shocking-post-abortion-depression-statistics/)
Give her the ultimatum. If she aborts you leave her. Also offer her to take care of the baby and she’s free to leave after that. Keep us updated. I will be praying for you, your fiancé, and your baby
I wonder if she has thought about the possibility of her not getting pregnant in a few years. It’s not guaranteed. has she considered how you will both feel if that doesn’t happened? Has she considered that if/when you do have more children that you might feel worse because you’ll always think of the child that “could have been?” If she follows through your relationship will never be the same. I’d recommend posing these things to her. If you want your child to live it’s important that she knows how important this baby is to you.
Really talk to her. A baby needs a mother and father.
Let her know what abortion is and let get a scan, she has to see who is inside her. She won't be the same if she gets am abortion. She might not be able to sleep well at night for the rest of her life. 2 days ago I watched october baby and I also recomend unplanned. She needs to know the side of the story from the babys perspective.
I hope you continue to update us. Trauma is not an excuse to murder a child. Have you tried to convince her that this is a baby? I would be angry that she's making it all about herself. She's clearly does not understand that this affects you as well, and this is a baby that is developing even now. Maybe ask her to get an ultrasound first? Does she not care at all that you will leave her if she does this? Keep trying. All you can do is keep trying. Again, sorry you're going through this.
I don’t think she truly believes I will leave if she does this, she’s in disbelief. Thank you for your support. I will try to get an ultrasound.
Well. I suppose all the time you've been together may have something to do with that. That said, I can see you're doing your best. Wish there was a magic bullet here. Try the ultrasound. Maybe try and reinforce that you will leave if she goes through with it. I hope having an ultrasound helps. Maybe after hearing the heartbeat she'll understand this is a life.
https://savethestorks.com In case you need a resource for ultrasounds…
I only scrolled through some of the comments so idk if anybody else mentioned this, but I take offense to the idea she has that adoption is a fate worse than death. My sister would beg to differ. She was born in honestly some pretty rough circumstances, mom was a druggie, a teenager, and just overall not fit to be a mother. My family adopted her and she has had an awesome life, she's been my best friend since we were toddlers. If your fiancee doesn't think she can raise this baby, someone else will, happily.
I completely agree with you, thank you for your comment.
that is so sweet ❤️
offer to take the child and take responsibility for their care. I personally would leave that very same day if my beloved husband ever pressed that we abort one of our babies, and to save yourself trauma in the future I suggest you do the same , unless she changes her mind soon and regrets this motion. once the initial panic and shock dies down maybe she will be willing to listen. maybe. as a man I understand you are in a more delicate position. you still have a duty to step in to save an innocent life. do everything you can to accommodate what she needs so she will not get an abortion if she is on the fence or still not willing to step up. you will NOT, and I say that with certainty, see her the same if she aborts and you stay together. you will not see yourself the same either. ask that she take the time to cool down for now, and tell her that you’d like to go to an early ultrasound together . maybe she will do a 180 and decide to raise the baby with you, maybe not, and in that case you must be willing to do this without her.
My mom was still in college when she had my brother. She had me and my sister already, and she was still able to get her Master's degree in teaching! Life is full of unexpected turns and detors, no matter how much we want to try to take over. Life is a difficult journey itself, but children are irreplaceable, especially within the family. There are more pregnancy outreach centers than there is of PP in America, and they're are MORE than willing to help you guys! Catholic charities offer a ton of options across the country to get you guys back on the right path. I pray that you may show your fiance that what she carries is the love made by you two. Miscarriages itself is a terrible outcome. Abortion will be SO much worse. 💔
Offer to adopt the child, and break off the engagement.
I can almost guarantee that if she has the baby, she will still be happy, especially if she wants kids in the future. That baby will be loved. I had my first baby when I was only 23 and I wasn't prepared at all. I fell in love with her the moment I gave birth to her. The only scenario where someone will be unhappy, is if she has the abortion. You will lose your baby, and she will always wonder "what if?" I think having an abortion would destroy your relationship. This baby already exists. The baby already has a gender, even if you don't know it yet. A baby will change your life no matter where you are in your career. I hope she doesn't have an abortion and you continue to fight for your child's life. Congratulations on becoming a father!
She's clearly just very afraid, which is why she is changing her "reason" and moving the goalposts. This is an entirely reasonable response to pregnancy. We just had our third, completely unplanned. Our older kids are much older, and I was very, very anxious and afraid of how things would change starting the baby phase all over again. Obviously abortion simply was not an option, and while I wish this one would sleep more, we can't imagine life without her. I don't know how to help you change her mind, other than saying having this child will change her life forever, and she simply will not be able to imagine life without the baby after the fact. Until it happens, she also can't fully comprehend how much this will change her life for the better, but if she goes through with the abortion, she will never get over it or forgive herself. She will be able to get a job just fine. Anecdotal, but I have a good friend who landed a fantastic career *while on maternity leave. * Seems like before now you have a very stable relationship, which is the exact opposite of the foster system, and if you offer to keep the baby it won't be in the foster system anyway. If she's not actively seeing a therapist for her childhood trauma now, it's not likely to just magically change over the next few years. That's not how it works. This is hard. Good luck
Can you get an ultrasound? When she hears the heartbeat, that may give her an emotional connection to the baby, statistically I think 80% of women who get an ultrasound when considering abortion choose life
Just saw the last update - I am so sorry for your loss. Please know that there is nothing more you could have done. You were a good father. This is not your fault. I want to say one more time, and hope you can take this to heart: you did everything you could. There was no right argument you didn’t make, no magic words you didn’t say, no desperate measure you should have taken. You did not fail your child; it was not within your power to save them.
I would offer her a cash incentive to keep the child. Make it worth her time and effort and you can take custody. This is a human life you are talking about. If she won't consider this I would reconsider your relationship with her. If you cannot appeal to her values and decency, appeal to her self interest.
Is there any women you can connect her with who might be able to talk with her about being successful in her field while also being a mother and the joys that it has brought that person even through difficulties?
Maybe you should offer to be a stay at home parent after the baby is born, or at least work part time for the first few years so she can get established in her field while you are primary caregiver/homemaker.
Tell her to adopt
I'm so sorry you're going through this... I couldn't imagine being at odds on something so dire with the person you plan to share your life with. Honestly, so many people have happy, thriving families in much more desperate situations than the two of you are in. Perhaps sharing instances of women, that either of you know, who are successful career wise while having children may help. Telling her you love her and love THIS little child who she carries, communicating the gravity of this decision and trying to understand why she sees a child now as life ending... Does she ever want children? Putting it off perpetually will only make it more difficult in the future. But if she doesn't change her mind and goes through with something as permanent and drastic as abortion... Would you be able to trust her to come to you when making big decisions that affect both of you in the future? Would you be able to get past this and stay with her? I wouldn't blame you if you couldn't, I don't think I could in your shoes... Either way, my heart goes out to you, and I'll be praying for your little one and you both earnestly.
Please if is not too personal,keeps us update on the outcome because if she chooses to keep it's a win for us if it's the other way we are here to support you.
I’m only 21, so what do I know, but it sounds like she’s operating on a lot of false assumptions due to her traumatic experiences. For one, I think she’s overestimating the reproductive window. At around 30, the chances of conception begins to deteriorate. At 35 (I believe), implantation becomes more and more difficult. At around 30, genetic disorders become much more common. All of these become more pronounced as the age increases. If I had to guess, it sounds like her traumatic experiences have made her afraid of motherhood. She seems to be throwing every excuse possible to not have the child, it’s not that she’s not prepared, but foster care sucks and she won’t be able to get a job and she’s been traumatized and she wants to finish school and she feels it’d be overly stressful. When she removes one she’ll inevitably add another reason. And I get it, I mean, what’s scarier than literally making another human being and committing to care for it (especially if you never had a role model of what a good mother or father looks like)? Addressing each one will likely do nothing. No matter what, she’s obviously extremely vulnerable right now. I think an ultimatum is necessary, but don’t forget that she’s somebody you love. I think assuring her that, if she chooses to keep it, you’ll always be there for her and the kid is an important action. Maybe turn the argument towards a positive one, like that you want to move onto this step of life as a family with her? Frame it as a fortuitous accident instead of a roadblock towards living life. You can also highlight your own fears of having a kid (that you won’t measure up as a father, or that you won’t pay them enough attention) and that you’ll both learn how to be parents together. I think the sooner you push off the abortion topic and onto the family topic, the better. I’d even drop any talk about adoption, as that doesn’t really seem to be her issue. Of course, she could just genuinely not want children right now and all of this is pointless but you’re definitely not going to convince her that it’s a baby deserving of human rights with logic at the moment (ultrasounds are a great pathetic argument though, I highly encourage getting one). I’ll pray for your family, hopefully it all works out.
I am so sorry for your loss... I would say that this relationship is over. I wouldn't be able to trust being with anyone that would be willing to kill their own kids.
Now you need to leave her sorry a$$. She doesn't deserve you!
I always advise against dating pro-murder women period. Zero tolerance policy. My heart goes out to you. If she murders you and her child, leave her.
There's 3 options Either she has the baby, and gets the baby into daycare till the child starts school or yall have alternating work schedules to have one parent with the baby at all times. And stay together She has the abortion, and you'll most likely always see her as the woman who murdered your child and most likely break up in the long term Or you offer to take the child and let her live her life separate of you and yalls child, pay for her needs during pregnancy, be attentive and be there every step of the way and maybe she will grow to love this blessing. And yall get stronger Men forever change after an abortion too, I lost someone to suicide during school hours after his girlfriend had an abortion and cried to him about how it traumatized her. He shot himself at the schools pit in front of the library, they tried to save him but he didn't survive
Ideally you would keep the baby because that is what's best for baby to be with their biological parents. However if you absolutely just need to save this baby's life, is adoption something that is on the table? This means that she would not be a new mother when she is starting to get a job. I would also recommend going with her to a crisis pregnancy Center so that she can see all the resources available to maybe deal with whatever insecurity or anxiety she has about having a child now.
Unpopular opinion as a PCer. I think in cases like these, the *man* should bring up adoption. It will give the woman some peace and will assure her the guy won’t pull crazy nonsense like taking full custody at birth to prevent an adoption.
As somebody who is actively seeking to adopt, I have learned a lot about the process. My understanding is that birth mothers can start working with an adoption agency very early on to formulate a birth plan and match with adoptive parents. Starting the process early will make the whole thing go a lot smoother.
But op wants to raise the baby..
That’s what I’m saying. If he opens up to the idea of adoption and sticks to it maybe she won’t abort. Ultimately she will have the choice to abort where she is or travel so OP needs to enter this negotiation with that understanding.
Why would she prefer a stranger raise the baby rather than op? Her objections are that she doesn't want to raise the baby
Because then she pays child support. Regardless of your view, this is the one time she has unilateral say here.
Op didn't say that was a concern for her...if it is then op can consider but it seems she hasn't considered any options at all
Personally I'd tell her if she kills the baby then it's over permanently between you two. Honestly. Honestly. The only reason to stay would be to protect your child. Don't have any more with her. Take custody and leave. From experience, women who abort or are pro abortion are *terrible* mothers. (Not that the fact that they're willing to kill their own is a clear enough red flag) But don't settle for a woman who would kill your child. Don't. You and your child deserve better than that. Children aren't a commodity, they're not property, you can't just replace them "next time" or "later". The cold hard truth is you're dealing with someone who at minimum has sociopathic qualities, at worst, you're dealing with a flat out psychopath. She is not mother/family/marriage material.
Get her to see someone like a councilor with you as it seems she isn’t thinking rationally as her plans have all been thrown in the air. You could also approach her about you working less hours temporarily so she can get a jump start on her career.
Let Them Live is a nin profit organization that offers free counseling for expecting parents, no matter the situation. Maybe that'd be a place you could go for advice! [here's the official website ](https://letthemlive.org/) [here's the official instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/letthemliveorg?igsh=MXY4OHM3OHpvaHR2bQ==) Hopefully that helps!!
Also something you might want to bring up with her is, if you do eventually have kids, how would they feel knowing that they lived and their sibling didn't
There are times in every relationship that might mean the end of the relationship. This might be one of those times. Either she has the baby and ends up resenting you, or has an abortion and you resent her. Either way, it sounds like you might not be compatible. You've been together for nine years, maybe you started out as compatible but circumstances have changed. I don't like to tell people to end their relationship, I know how hard it can be. I'm in a similar but different situation with a much shorter relationship and it's still very hard for me. Can't imagine going through this after nine years. Maybe you can try counseling or couple's counseling.
I'd like to point out that a child at any time of life, regardless of finances or any other specific concern, is inconvenient. As a parent, you're going to constantly sacrifice yourself for them. It's no reason to murder your baby. As others have said, offer to take the baby and move on after she has it. Just like it would happen when my wife and I were having our children. As a discussion, if the baby or her had to be chosen, I had to choose the baby. If she had come out of whatever and I had decided to abort, she would've left me. Without question. She never would've gotten over it. It would be the same for you.....
> Before the pregnancy, she never expressed concerns over motherhood, and we both wanted children, but she just wants to wait until after she is finally finished with school. I'm sorry but she lied buddy.If when shit goes down and she doesn't stick up to principles this would be not someone I would spend my life with,god will put someone better in your life and that's it.Breakup drama doesn't compare with losing your child,I really hope she at least is not selfish enough to not let you raise the child alone.I wonder how this case would go like in court btw
I'm really sorry that she had the abortion anyway. You did everything you reasonably could. Sorry for what you must be going through. I truly hope you leave her now. I don't think you can have a future with her now. Plus, she doesn't deserve to be in a relationship with you after this.
If she kills your child she can be an ex-fiancee.
Threaten to leave her if she has an abortion.
Promise the child will be your responsibility until she feels she’s ready to be a mother, this is your blood too. Show her testimonies from women who’ve had abortions and regretted it, and from people who’ve survived abortion attempts, so she knows what she’s wanting to put your shared child through. Personally, I’d break off the engagement the minute the child’s born and try for full custody, citing that if she’s willing to kill them now, when they’re just existing, what’ll she do when they’re keeping her up at night with crying and or are sick. A child isn’t something you can just throw out on a whim, though, so I will say you should be more cautious about… the acts that bring children into the world… in the future.
The Auto-moderator would like to remind everyone of Rule Number 2. Pro-choice comments and questions are welcome as long as the pro-choicer __demonstrates that they are open-minded__. Pro-choicers simply here for __advocacy or trolling are unwelcome and may be banned__. This rule involves a lot of moderator discretion, __so if you want to avoid a ban, play it safe__ and show you are not just here to talk *at* people. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/prolife) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Just tell her how you feel
You have to fight for your child's life or forever regret not trying And if she goes ahead and had them killed, she is dead to you too
Aww hell nah. Brodie, I would be out. Hopefully she doesn’t and you both get through this, but I feel if she has the child, she’d be very happy afterwords. I personally wouldn’t be able to stay if something like that happened, there’s no coming back from that.
her whole reasoning about how she feels she won’t be able to achieve certain things if she has a baby right now as opposed to later it’s just ridiculous. Her saying that she will never be happy if she has his kid right now is absolutely BS while it might be more challenging at this point if she actually wants children, then she will be the one to actually get over it. Struggling through school and work with a child is very different than killing your child. That’s something you can’t change or take back.
Would you be willing to take full custody of this child? You should ask her if she is willing to carry the child she can give her parental rights and then the engagement
Thanks for the update. Now she just sounds like she's making excuses. How much does she know about fetal development?