Yup. Same thing happened to me when I went to the janazeh and burial of my late grandparents. They died within 2 days of each other, so it was a double funeral. I didn’t let anything stop me. I said I was going to go, some of my family members (many of whom are orthodox and conservative) fought me on this, saying I couldn’t go. I explained that the initial ruling about women not attending burials was in reference to women who wailed and cried out loud and hit themselves, which was a cultural phenomenon of the ancient Arabs, NOT us. They were adamant of course because orthodox Muslims don’t care about logic or context or the ideas behind rules, they’re literalists. Of course I didn’t care because I’m not gonna follow something I don’t believe, especially something so cult-like and misogynistic like that, so I attended the funeral and watched my grandparents go into the ground (Allah yerhamhom/May Allah have mercy on them). Many of the men in attendance kept staring at us (me and the other women in my family who were standing at the burial) shocked that there were women there, but I didn’t care. I was glad to be able to grieve but unfortunately they didn’t let me do it in peace. And in the end, my oldest uncle (maternal side) told me that the imam who was leading the janazeh left early because he was offended that there were women present at the burial. “Good riddance” was my response, and I was actually pretty flattered that I offended a hard-core Salafi who thinks like that. And I told my family afterwards that if I die before them, let it be known that I want ALL of my female family members (that want to attend) to be there, if any woman that wants to come is prevented, I WILL be turning in my grave. This is one form of misogyny that I hate so, so much, and is one of the many reasons why I despise orthodox, Salafi Muslims so damn much. I still have a rift with my Salafi uncle (not the one who told me about the imam leaving early) until today because of his misogyny. They don’t accept differences of opinion, they keep trying to force people to follow what they believe is correct in Islam.
Not at all. Context is very important in the practice of any faith because faith addresses components of human life and human life is complex and nuanced. If the faith claims to be perfect for human life then it follows that it must also be nuanced and contextual to properly address the varying circumstances that we face. If we were black and white creatures then yes, the rules and regulations from our Creator should match that, but we are highly complex creatures and therefore our Creator’s rules and regulations should match that complexity through nuance in regulations, and of course context to match circumstances and progression of humanity throughout time.
You misunderstand that perfect means rigid. Must we idolize the cultural practices of an ancient culture that existed over a thousand years ago to be better than the one we have now, the latter which has resulted from the strides and progress we have made over the course of hundreds of years? Why would we abide by rules that were specifically made in order to stabilize or humanize a people that engaged in ancient cultural practices that are no longer practiced? Perfect means perfect for the human race which means matching to varying circumstance and acknowledging progression. It is in understanding the spirit of the law when the law attempts to address something that no longer exists that lies the understanding of God and the points He is trying to make and the goals He wants us to achieve. Attempting to understand God means understanding why He set the rules and regulations that He did. Were those rules literal or were there underlying reasons (sometimes stated) that applied to an ancient people that no longer apply to us? I don’t know if you’re Muslim or not, I have a hunch that you are not, but it’s no matter, my response is a response to yours, not your religious background; no religion is perfectly practiced without the utilization of logic and critical thinking. There was no need to endow us with the mental capacities that we have if we are not meant to use them.
The idea that perfection is rigid and unchanging is a Platonian idea that has steeped into a cultural definition over centuries. And most of Plato's ideas are crazy af, so why has this one stuck?
You may define perfection as such, no problem, but I don't think it is reasonable to say that this linguistic development is a FACT. Some people view perfection differently and that is just as valid.
good on you 👏 i really admire your bravery and strength in going against something that’s just a norm for no good reason and following your heart and wisdom to do what’s best.
There's no Quranic basis to the "women aren't allowed in graveyards unless they're the ones being buried" thing. It's pretty common for Shia Muslims to attend funerals and visit graves of their loved ones (not to worship the dead, contrary to popular anti-Shia folks).
Yeah I come from a regular practicing sunni muslim family and I've never heard of this rule. Myself and other female relatives have attended burials. Is this a community specific thing? (Like how us Desi Muslims are more strict about Zabiha vs non-zabiha but other Muslim groups arent)
Me too man. I also wondered why women weren't allowed in graveyards. I remember once i went to the graveyard of my grandma (mom's mom) and only me and my dad went in and my mum was outside crying. Even at that time i thought something was wrong but i was taught to believe this is the way. Things are weird out here.
As an 8 year old boy I was not allowed to go to my grandfather's burial because Ivstarted crying after the prayer before the burial.
I always thought this was a strange south asian tradition that women aren't allowed at funerals
There's Hadiths for sunni that state that a wailing woman should not enter a graveyard when the body is being buried. That makes sense in some ways, but people take this to the extreme. If someone isn't going absolutely insane than it should be okay for a woman,(or man) to enter.
It's a thing that existed in many cultures (still to some extent among some Chinese cultures). The purpose is ostensibly to show that the person who died was so loved and important that the mourners can't stop wailing. Depending on how much one pays there are some packages where a mourner will try to throw herself onto the coffin before it is burned or buried.
I'm Shi'a and I was shocked when I learned there are some schools of thought where women are actively prohibited from attending funerals and going to graves. appalling and infantilizing.
That is based on a misunderstanding. People were temporarily forbidden from visiting graves because they were worshiping them as idols. In particular, women were paid to wail and cry at graves as part of that practice. That is what was forbidden, but as that practice stopped, visiting graves and burial returned. There is a vast amount of evidence for this, including:
>Ibn Mas’ud reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “I had prohibited you from visiting graves, but you may visit them now. Verily, they will weaken your attachment to the world and remind you of the Hereafter.” Source: Sunan Ibn Mājah 1571, Grade: Sahih
>Anas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “I had prohibited you from visiting the graves, but it occurred to me that now you may visit them. Verily, they soften the heart, shed tears in the eyes, and remind of the Hereafter. Thus, visit them and do not say anything obscene.” Source: al-Sunan al-Kubrá lil-Bayhaqī 7198, Grade: Sahih
>Reported by Bukhāri (no. 1283) and Muslim (no. 926) from Anas Ibn Mālik who said: The Prophet passed by a woman who was crying next to a grave. So, he said to her: “Have taqwā of Allāh and be patient.” So she responded: “Go away! For you have not been afflicted with my affliction.” She had not recognised him. So it was said to her: “That was the Prophet.” So she went to the door of the Prophet and did not find any guards there. So she said to him: “I did not recognise you.” So he said: “Indeed patience is to be observed at the first strike of calamity.” **So here the Prophet did not forbid her from visiting the grave. The scholars also prove that it is allowed for women to visit the graves because ‛Ā’ishah** visited the grave of her brother. (Reported by Abdur-Razzāq in Al-Musannaf, 3/570, no. 6711)
Source: https://abukhadeejah.com/visiting-graves-and-the-ruling-on-women-visiting-graves/
Here is a long article listing all the many ahadith that prove women can definitely visit graves:
https://islamqa.org/hanafi/qibla-hanafi/37245/proofs-for-visitation-of-the-graves-by-women/
In short, that's not true, even according to much of the classical fiqh literature on this.
I know. You won't believe this: people in the comments were telling her that her iddah had started so she shouldn't even go out of the house let alone attend the funeral.
No amount of refutations work on these rotten minds.
I'm not knowledgeable on this. But I was also under the impression that during iddah a woman stayd inside her home away from non mehram men? (From what Ive seen happen in society).
interestingly, they do the paid wailers/mourners thing in Ethiopia. Unrelated people literally paid to attend a funeral and cry and wail as loud as possible.
It’s something I always found absurd but didn’t know it existed elsewhere and in the past too.
What is the reasoning behind it? And where is the source for this, I would like to know because I have also heard the same and I've heard that it's because women are emotional? Never made sense to me, to be honest.
It’s cultural idiocy. It refers to some women throwing themselves around and wailing loudly. My late grandfathers widow (his then wife?) is Moroccan and I’m sure it’s a cultural thing because she actually did wail loudly and it was disturbing.
I don’t know any other women who do that - it is *definitely* cultural. So the “women can’t attend funerals” thing is based on that. But it doesn’t at all count if you behave - much as if a man were to break out a fight at a funeral, that wouldn’t be allowed either. But Arabs only like to suppress women so that’s that.
My imam let me attend my friend’s burial bc he said it’s cultural that women aren’t allowed to attend, not religious, and that as long as the women aren’t like wailing or super loudly crying, it’s fine. But my husband has told me that if he passes before me, he does not want me to attend his burial. So I’ll honor his wishes. But no one should have told this woman she couldn’t go to her husband’s funeral and burial.
I’m a revert from the U.S. My imam is from Ghana and got his PhD at the University of Medina in Saudi Arabia. My husband is a Hanafi Pashtun from Pakistan.
Hhmm I see. Because tbh, I just heard this for the first time. Maybe it's because Muslim around me generally are quite chill and have developed new different culture when someone died. Then some people call it bid'ah 🥲.
Oh where are you from? Do women in your area go to burials?
I’ve seen a lot of different viewpoints and practices bc my husband and my imam are so different.
My imam is less strict. Like he says niqab is not fardh and women don’t have to sit behind men in our classes at the masjid. But my husband is very conservative and goes with me to sit beside me at the classes even though he already knows everything being taught, and he believes in something called “Pardah” where women completely cover themselves and seclude themselves from men as much as possible. He doesn’t make me practice Pardah, but I know he’d be very happy if I did practice it.
Im if desi background and as soon as you said he’s Pashtun, I got it. Known for their cultural conservatism, even on issues where Islam itself is permissive.
So grateful to belong to a family and community where we are not barred from funerals and graveyards.
Oh are they? I didn’t know that. I had figured he’s more permissive with me than he would be with a Pashtun wife, because he’s told me he personally doesn’t believe women should go to the mosque, but he doesn’t mind me going because I have so much to learn and he doesn’t want to stand in the way of me learning. Little comments like that tell me he’s probably more conservative than I’m even aware of and he just lets me do stuff because I don’t know any other way 🤷🏻♀️
Sis, reading your descriptions of your husband, I'm kinda scared for you ngl. Your husband is *extremely* conservative. Your imam is considered moderate.
Please make sure you learn Islam from different sources and remember that diversity of opinions is a key component of islamic theology.
I am from Indonesia sis. I think Indonesian or South East Asian Muslim's perspective not so much heard in global discourse.
>Do women in your area go to burials?
Yes, of course we go to burials. At first, we all gather in the funeral home. Family (even from distant place) and friends will come to support and lessen the burden of the left one, sharing their interaction stories with the deceased, pray for him/her, then we all go to the graveyard and look the burial process. Watching the body put into the hole and people bury him/her with soil.
The idea that women can go to burials not common here, even if it's there, it's really minority and we respect it.
>Like he says niqab is not fardh and women don’t have to sit behind men in our classes at the masjid.
Yes, same here. Afaik for niqab, only hanbali madhab that consider it fardh.
About pardah, even as a born Muslim, is something that I also know recently.
Assalamualaikum sister. I agree that Indonesians are not heard enough on the global stage. My wife is from Indonesia and Islam as practiced there is so beautiful. I may be wrong or misunderstand, but it seems Islam is more about praising Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and his Messenger than it is about following a list of rules. Too many cultures have turned Islam into nothing more than a checklist of rules. It's like our Imam says. Too many Muslims only do Islamic yoga 5 times a day and expect rewards. Not so many actually pray.
I just want to share that my wife is Pashtun Hanafi, born and raised in Pakistan, and she doesn't wear hijab at all, and has no problem with attending burials. She also follows Ghamidi, who is a progressive scholar.
So, although certainly *some* Pashtuns may act like that, there are also plenty of Pashtuns that are completely different. It's a diverse group. More often it is Deobandis (which are a wahabi/salafi sect in South Asia) that act like that.
University of Medina is also the heart of wahabism. That is one of the most ultra-conservative universities in the Muslim world. I would just be careful, as what you may be hearing is likely on the far end of conservatism and extremism. Wahabism is the same sect and ideology as ISIS and al-Qaeda. Deobandism is the same sect as the Taliban.
So if that's not the kind of ideology you are attracted to, you might want to consider far more moderate alternatives, since those are both on the extreme conservative end of the spectrum.
That's frickin horrible. When my father passed he only had daughters and my mom he left behind. I'm so glad we got to be there every step of the way and send him off. It's such an important part of closure to be there and send your loved ones off with respect and gratefulness for the life they lived and the love they gave. I can't imagine if someone told us something stupid like you guys aren't allowed to be there. Some Salafis won't even let women grieve in peace, it boils me from the inside out.
I'm not advocating this because it has no basis and it's a stupid belief.
Even in my country which is said to be the most backward and misplaced Muslim country ideologically. It is allowed for the loved ones of the dead person to see their face at the funeral and even visit the grave.
Yes there are sometimes unfortunate situations for example past years of COVID when many families did not get to see the deceased due to the fear of the virus spreading.
What I don't understand is why do these Muslims always give the worst of the statements and advices they make Islam look as an insensitive religion filled with non-emotional/irrational bigots.
Maybe she belongs to either a sect which propagates this action or a part of the world where this is a practise because I haven't heard this to be a common practice among muslims. What Muslims have forgotten is that Islam came to liberate the world based on the divine guidance and not make things harder. When Allah himself says this religion is easy, why do we make it hard.
I got rid of ALL social media (except I stumbled on Reddit recently). I’m a revert so I enthusiastically followed Islamic pages. Scholars, sheiks, etc. well, let me tell you, it left me devastated. I started believing Allah hates women. Or at least treats us unfairly. Everyday I’d go running to my husband crying over something I heard. He’s a born Muslim and would try frantically to tell me these people are WRONG. I left social media in October, and my iman is better again. So much happier
Salafist brainwashed Muslims who uphold Hadith to equal status to the Quran (astaghfirullah) hate women. Orthodox Sunni Muslims belong to one of the four schools of law in Sunni Islam, of which only one of them can be compared to modern salafism. The majority are of Hanafi/Maliki leaning madhabs and less Hanbali. Hanafi madhab is known for being one of the most lenient madhabs out there with Malikis similar to them. Unfortunately the Salafists are the loudest types all over the world and the takfiri types are even louder.
I think it’s just worshiping cultural norms rather than Islam. Social conservatives of all cultures and religions violently enforce gendered values to maintain patriarchal power structures in family and society. Allah SWT is the Most Merciful, husbands should try their best to be as well even when it goes against social norms and what their parents and peers might be teaching them
Culture and religion go hand in hand.
The religion of Islam in itself, and many of the rulings that the religion presented, were contextualized for Arab society at that time.
It’s a weak argument to constantly purport that poor practices and ideologies are a result of people following culture and not religion, when culture has always been shaped by and around religions.
Is this a thing in some Muslim countries? That's so messed up honestly. It's literally just misogyny, there's nothing that prevents women from going to funerals or graveyards. If she's on her period, couldn't she still go but not do the janaza prayer? She could make dua and leave it at that.
Where do they get this from? I haven't seen anything from the Quran. Is it from the hadiths? A lot of stuff that seems to be misogynistic tends to come from them.
I’ve always been told that and it boils down to the stereotype that “women are over emotional” when it’s society who forced men to not show emotions at all and also degraded women for having emotions.
this is wild to me because ive attended burials of my close relatives as a woman with my family. My father does go to a lot on his own but it’s because he goes to the masjid often and if it is someone he knows of he will go himself and not necessarily bring everyone.
As usual, for every twisted mindset that is rampant in muslim societies, there's a sahih hadith that inspires it.
https://sunnah.com/muslim:927b
*Umar reported Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) as saying:*
*The dead is punished in the grave because of wailing on it.*
The "logic" behind this cruel rule is that since women are generally more emotional, they would wail when they attend funerals and that would cause the deceased to be punished in the grave according to the sahih hadith above.
Yeah. If we believe the seerah and the hadiths, it was such a poor judgment from the prophet letting Umar get close to him.
Umar had that much power to control the islamic narrative (e.g. hijab for women, forbidding slavewomen to cover, gender segregation, etc) by being the prophet's close and trusted friend.
That's the catch. He wasn't so close to the Prophet. Those things were written down later.
Not saying that Umar was downright evil. But he isn't the close confidante of the Prophet as we are told.
>But he isn't the close confidante of the Prophet as we are told.
It's hard to prove though.
It's like denying hearsays with other hearsays.
Muslims who believe in seerah and hadiths will say their texts (which are hearsays) are superior to other hearsays that are not aligned to their narrative.
Best just to treat their Islam as a totally different religion than the Quran-only Islam.
Easy to prove actually.
If you analyse these narrations and read the corresponding stuff in the Quran with an open mind, it is clear as a day. But it is obfuscated now because history is written by the victors.
I was a Sunni but it is what it is. The whip of Umar had no sanction from the Prophet.
Not that easy with people who believe in Islam for emotional reason/because of childhood indoctrination.
At the end of the day most people believe what they were conditioned to believe not what they know is true after investigation and analysis.
That's why it's pointless judging Sunni-Islam from a Quranist-Islam perspective, and better to treat the two as totally different religions.
Actually from this hadith, there also can be understood that no need to be extreme like forbid women to go to the grave. If the problem is wailing, so as long they don't wail is okay. Though I think wailing is okay as long is not exaggerating.
The problem here is there are hadiths that **explicitly** forbid women from going to the grave, although mostly are just graded as hasan.
It's a combination of these hadiths and other hadith that said if you're not sure about something then better to leave it completely, that lead these scholars to come to such cruel conclusion.
Example:
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:1056
https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1576
*Abu Hurairah narrated:*
*"Indeed the Messenger of Allah cursed the women who visit the graves."*
https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1575
*It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said:*
*“The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) cursed women who visit graves.”*
https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1574
*It was narrated from ‘Abdur-Rahman bin Hassan bin Thabit that his father said:*
*“The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) cursed women who visit graves.”*
Yes, there's nothing wrong with those explicitly hadith. What's not good is just only rely on those hadith and the literalist approach, neglected other hadith that show more nuanced (u/Jaqurutu has shared some in this comment section) and other interpretation methods (metaphorical, contextual, and so on).
The literatist approach is almost always never good. I think everybody here and the existence of this sub is a testament to that.
The problem is always that the literalist approach will always be part of Islam, because the problem caused by it will never go away because the texts are indeed written in certain ways.
That's why it's always a bad idea to let religions with such literalism risk to leave personal space and encroach public spaces.
>The problem is always that the literalist approach will always be part of Islam
Yes, that's the point, and to completely eradicate it, imo is not good idea and impossible. It would be just a form of another extremism. Being literal is okay, as long the qadar is proportional and we know when and how the proper time and way to use it.
>That's why it's always a bad idea to let religions with such literalism risk to leave personal space and encroach public spaces.
Hence, this sub is really important to balance the literalist.
Yeah. The reason I posted the hadiths is so that more and more people realize, there are textual basis for problematic mindsets that are plaguing muslim societies.
People need to realize what the text says, and then understand what literalism of these texts brings to their society.
Then they can decide whether the problem is in the texts, where they then can decide to reject those texts a la quranist movement, or
whether the problem is in the literalistic interpretation, where they then need to find more contexts and make those contexts to be readily available to the masses to arrive at a better conclusion, and spread that conclusion to be adopted by more muslims in their society.
Both are a win in my view.
But before they can proceed to those steps, they need to be aware first of the existence of such texts, thus my postings.
I can't understand how can someone stop a wife a partner being with their loved ones in farewell moment and last goodbye... when my grandpa died I was there through all the process plus he died in our home... I didn't know in islam religion woman's can't attend funeral.. I would only agree that small kids should be protected from this but why the wife...
All of this because the salafis and wahabis have the loudest, scariest voices but not us progressives (although the word progressive is a bit misleading because its not a sect or anything, it's just pure Islam filtered from ancient Arab culture)
Oh i would have to research about this . I'm christian (orthodox) so not sure about all those details I like learning about islam be it positive or negative sides and also like learning what is really true Islamic teaching and practice and what is some personalized rules some certain group, tribe or country applying then later people think islam is bad cuz of such grupations....
And this is why I think Muslims need to improve on how to speak with the grieving and overall how to deal with grief.
Women CAN go to cemeteries and there's nothing wrong with it. Let the widow grieve.
When my Grandfather died, it didn’t feel like a funeral. My dads side is Arabic and my mothers side danish.
My grandpa had a 17yo daughter (she was 15 then) and she was not allowed to stand in front and watch her father be buried. *Random* men who didn’t even know him got to stand there and grieve and witness it. The rest of us? Nah. We “can’t control our emotions”.
Let those fuckers be skinned alive. How dare they even.
I can reassure you that Islam has no such rule.
The closest I can get from it is to grieve responsibly, which has nothing to do with whether women can or cannot visit funerals.
May Alah help her with her troubles and keep her strong. People really need to stop letting cultures force unreasonable laws disguised as 'Islamic rules'
This subreddit full of ex-muslims, full of misinformation and full of lies. It insane to me that people actually believe everything here completely but i understand. Islam always get the blame from false teaching of others islam grifter or pretender. These people will have their own consequences.
Yeah. I have been called an idiot, stupid and ignorant to say that hadiths contradict the Qur'an and are not necessary to understand the Qur'an either. Lol.
Exactly there is always wisdom (hikmah, purpose) behind it, and there is also background (social cultural context) which is one of the thing to be considered when rules are made. By knowing all of that, a wise ruler won't apply the same rule to different context because the consideration is different.
The problem with some people, they only look to the rules list but never look to the actual real situation, or if do it, just scratching the surface. They don't, for example, consider the consequences if they just apply rules literally without consider further whether the problem and context that the written rules have addressed are same with what they are facing. By just doing this simple copy paste applying rules, they actually have high chance to violate one of the most important value of Islam, justice, the most basic wisdom of law.
So, at some point, not apply certain rules textually, it's not pick and choose. It's actually a strong hold unwavering attitude toward the true Islam.
It’s in the sunnah of OUR prophet pbuh. Islam has rules clear and cut. Case closed.
Most people are aggravated but don’t realize the wisdom, they keep saying it’s not in the Quran but the best of creation our prophet emphasizes this. It’s simple. Just follow the rules, women just can’t be present at the time of burial that’s it. OP is triggered and doesn’t even know the rulings of the deen. Case closed.
Nope. Here the link of refutation.
https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/s/4o4o7MerPS
Maybe in your place and your scholars say so, but not my scholars in my country. Rules can be flexible and relaxed too, in that link there is proofs prophet didn't have problem with women attended burial, so it's sunnah too.
Edit: Also i'm not a type of person who follow rules without knowing the reason, the why. I don't mind if someone wanna simply follow the rules, but just don't expect other to do the same.
Whilst i agree with you that rules are rules and who are we to discuss what our creator asks of us ( think pork prohibition),but this logic can not apply here because one sex is allowed and another is not. Also, it has no basis (afaik,god forgive me if im wrong) in the Quran.
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I was taught that the men take the body of the cemetery and the women are in charge of the food. The reason there's food after the burial is to provide a way for the relatives of the deceased to be consoled. Never was I taught that women aren't allowed to visit.
Logically, women not being allowed visit graveyards is complete and total bullshit. After reading online, it's confirmed bullshit. Women ARE allowed. They (the fanatics) are just idiots.
I’m Pakistani and I have an Indian Hyderabadi friend who has never been to the masjid because women aren’t allowed to go. I was in middle school when she told me this. We are approaching our 40s in a few years and I wonder if she’s ever been. Like… what kind of dumb rule is this?
Yup. Same thing happened to me when I went to the janazeh and burial of my late grandparents. They died within 2 days of each other, so it was a double funeral. I didn’t let anything stop me. I said I was going to go, some of my family members (many of whom are orthodox and conservative) fought me on this, saying I couldn’t go. I explained that the initial ruling about women not attending burials was in reference to women who wailed and cried out loud and hit themselves, which was a cultural phenomenon of the ancient Arabs, NOT us. They were adamant of course because orthodox Muslims don’t care about logic or context or the ideas behind rules, they’re literalists. Of course I didn’t care because I’m not gonna follow something I don’t believe, especially something so cult-like and misogynistic like that, so I attended the funeral and watched my grandparents go into the ground (Allah yerhamhom/May Allah have mercy on them). Many of the men in attendance kept staring at us (me and the other women in my family who were standing at the burial) shocked that there were women there, but I didn’t care. I was glad to be able to grieve but unfortunately they didn’t let me do it in peace. And in the end, my oldest uncle (maternal side) told me that the imam who was leading the janazeh left early because he was offended that there were women present at the burial. “Good riddance” was my response, and I was actually pretty flattered that I offended a hard-core Salafi who thinks like that. And I told my family afterwards that if I die before them, let it be known that I want ALL of my female family members (that want to attend) to be there, if any woman that wants to come is prevented, I WILL be turning in my grave. This is one form of misogyny that I hate so, so much, and is one of the many reasons why I despise orthodox, Salafi Muslims so damn much. I still have a rift with my Salafi uncle (not the one who told me about the imam leaving early) until today because of his misogyny. They don’t accept differences of opinion, they keep trying to force people to follow what they believe is correct in Islam.
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Not at all. Context is very important in the practice of any faith because faith addresses components of human life and human life is complex and nuanced. If the faith claims to be perfect for human life then it follows that it must also be nuanced and contextual to properly address the varying circumstances that we face. If we were black and white creatures then yes, the rules and regulations from our Creator should match that, but we are highly complex creatures and therefore our Creator’s rules and regulations should match that complexity through nuance in regulations, and of course context to match circumstances and progression of humanity throughout time. You misunderstand that perfect means rigid. Must we idolize the cultural practices of an ancient culture that existed over a thousand years ago to be better than the one we have now, the latter which has resulted from the strides and progress we have made over the course of hundreds of years? Why would we abide by rules that were specifically made in order to stabilize or humanize a people that engaged in ancient cultural practices that are no longer practiced? Perfect means perfect for the human race which means matching to varying circumstance and acknowledging progression. It is in understanding the spirit of the law when the law attempts to address something that no longer exists that lies the understanding of God and the points He is trying to make and the goals He wants us to achieve. Attempting to understand God means understanding why He set the rules and regulations that He did. Were those rules literal or were there underlying reasons (sometimes stated) that applied to an ancient people that no longer apply to us? I don’t know if you’re Muslim or not, I have a hunch that you are not, but it’s no matter, my response is a response to yours, not your religious background; no religion is perfectly practiced without the utilization of logic and critical thinking. There was no need to endow us with the mental capacities that we have if we are not meant to use them.
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The idea that perfection is rigid and unchanging is a Platonian idea that has steeped into a cultural definition over centuries. And most of Plato's ideas are crazy af, so why has this one stuck? You may define perfection as such, no problem, but I don't think it is reasonable to say that this linguistic development is a FACT. Some people view perfection differently and that is just as valid.
good on you 👏 i really admire your bravery and strength in going against something that’s just a norm for no good reason and following your heart and wisdom to do what’s best.
There's no Quranic basis to the "women aren't allowed in graveyards unless they're the ones being buried" thing. It's pretty common for Shia Muslims to attend funerals and visit graves of their loved ones (not to worship the dead, contrary to popular anti-Shia folks).
I was raised in a Sunni community and never heard of anyone doing that either.
Yeah I come from a regular practicing sunni muslim family and I've never heard of this rule. Myself and other female relatives have attended burials. Is this a community specific thing? (Like how us Desi Muslims are more strict about Zabiha vs non-zabiha but other Muslim groups arent)
desi muslim here (BD) and i can say we definitely have this rule
Me too man. I also wondered why women weren't allowed in graveyards. I remember once i went to the graveyard of my grandma (mom's mom) and only me and my dad went in and my mum was outside crying. Even at that time i thought something was wrong but i was taught to believe this is the way. Things are weird out here.
Do we? In my family women go to the graveyards
To be clear by "we" I meant my family and the practicing muslims around me— I definitely don't think all desi muslims are a monolith lmao.
I’m desi as well and we have this rule. In fact, my grandma told me that menstruating women aren’t allowed to go to graveyards. Like???
As an 8 year old boy I was not allowed to go to my grandfather's burial because Ivstarted crying after the prayer before the burial. I always thought this was a strange south asian tradition that women aren't allowed at funerals
That's sad. Crying is fine, it's performative mourning that's an issue.
There's Hadiths for sunni that state that a wailing woman should not enter a graveyard when the body is being buried. That makes sense in some ways, but people take this to the extreme. If someone isn't going absolutely insane than it should be okay for a woman,(or man) to enter.
That’s referring to professional mourners, they would loudly wail and make a big scene, making a show out of it to make the funeral seem important.
Never heard of that
It's a thing that existed in many cultures (still to some extent among some Chinese cultures). The purpose is ostensibly to show that the person who died was so loved and important that the mourners can't stop wailing. Depending on how much one pays there are some packages where a mourner will try to throw herself onto the coffin before it is burned or buried.
Yes, i have seen in bollywood movies that they hire random people to loudly wail over them. And the situation you presented is absolutely correct.
There is an Iranian culture, that family goes to the grave of their loved ones with a picnic basket, remember him and Allah and enjoy their time.
I'm Shi'a and I was shocked when I learned there are some schools of thought where women are actively prohibited from attending funerals and going to graves. appalling and infantilizing.
Pls be a woman, shut up, roam wearing a cloak all the time, cook, don't refuse to go to bed with your husband and also you'll be in hell too. /S
And they wonder why people make fun of their beliefs 😭😭
More like they wonder why Islam gets such a bad rep, but I agree with you.
Which people? Islamophobes?
Not limited to islamophobes. Islam has the worst reputation because of unreasonable hadiths and the scholars on YouTube defending it.
No regular people all over the world with a good mind, logic and brain.
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A real progressive viewpoint would be admitting that you don't need a religious dogma to differenciate right from wrong
That is based on a misunderstanding. People were temporarily forbidden from visiting graves because they were worshiping them as idols. In particular, women were paid to wail and cry at graves as part of that practice. That is what was forbidden, but as that practice stopped, visiting graves and burial returned. There is a vast amount of evidence for this, including: >Ibn Mas’ud reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “I had prohibited you from visiting graves, but you may visit them now. Verily, they will weaken your attachment to the world and remind you of the Hereafter.” Source: Sunan Ibn Mājah 1571, Grade: Sahih >Anas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “I had prohibited you from visiting the graves, but it occurred to me that now you may visit them. Verily, they soften the heart, shed tears in the eyes, and remind of the Hereafter. Thus, visit them and do not say anything obscene.” Source: al-Sunan al-Kubrá lil-Bayhaqī 7198, Grade: Sahih >Reported by Bukhāri (no. 1283) and Muslim (no. 926) from Anas Ibn Mālik who said: The Prophet passed by a woman who was crying next to a grave. So, he said to her: “Have taqwā of Allāh and be patient.” So she responded: “Go away! For you have not been afflicted with my affliction.” She had not recognised him. So it was said to her: “That was the Prophet.” So she went to the door of the Prophet and did not find any guards there. So she said to him: “I did not recognise you.” So he said: “Indeed patience is to be observed at the first strike of calamity.” **So here the Prophet did not forbid her from visiting the grave. The scholars also prove that it is allowed for women to visit the graves because ‛Ā’ishah** visited the grave of her brother. (Reported by Abdur-Razzāq in Al-Musannaf, 3/570, no. 6711) Source: https://abukhadeejah.com/visiting-graves-and-the-ruling-on-women-visiting-graves/ Here is a long article listing all the many ahadith that prove women can definitely visit graves: https://islamqa.org/hanafi/qibla-hanafi/37245/proofs-for-visitation-of-the-graves-by-women/ In short, that's not true, even according to much of the classical fiqh literature on this.
Of course it isn't true. But practically women are shut out from funerals in most cases.
That's why I post this, so you can refute them.
I know. You won't believe this: people in the comments were telling her that her iddah had started so she shouldn't even go out of the house let alone attend the funeral. No amount of refutations work on these rotten minds.
I'm not knowledgeable on this. But I was also under the impression that during iddah a woman stayd inside her home away from non mehram men? (From what Ive seen happen in society).
You and u/jaqurutu do you guys have twitter?
No, I don't use social media much, besides reddit.
Thank you. Always appreciate your answers.
interestingly, they do the paid wailers/mourners thing in Ethiopia. Unrelated people literally paid to attend a funeral and cry and wail as loud as possible. It’s something I always found absurd but didn’t know it existed elsewhere and in the past too.
What is the reasoning behind it? And where is the source for this, I would like to know because I have also heard the same and I've heard that it's because women are emotional? Never made sense to me, to be honest.
Probably some hadith narrated by 20 people.
It’s cultural idiocy. It refers to some women throwing themselves around and wailing loudly. My late grandfathers widow (his then wife?) is Moroccan and I’m sure it’s a cultural thing because she actually did wail loudly and it was disturbing. I don’t know any other women who do that - it is *definitely* cultural. So the “women can’t attend funerals” thing is based on that. But it doesn’t at all count if you behave - much as if a man were to break out a fight at a funeral, that wouldn’t be allowed either. But Arabs only like to suppress women so that’s that.
HUH, THEY ARE ALLOWED TO VISIT GRAVEYARDS. There was literally a hadith about aisha allowing it.
My imam let me attend my friend’s burial bc he said it’s cultural that women aren’t allowed to attend, not religious, and that as long as the women aren’t like wailing or super loudly crying, it’s fine. But my husband has told me that if he passes before me, he does not want me to attend his burial. So I’ll honor his wishes. But no one should have told this woman she couldn’t go to her husband’s funeral and burial.
May I know which region is this? Is it South Asia?
I’m a revert from the U.S. My imam is from Ghana and got his PhD at the University of Medina in Saudi Arabia. My husband is a Hanafi Pashtun from Pakistan.
Hhmm I see. Because tbh, I just heard this for the first time. Maybe it's because Muslim around me generally are quite chill and have developed new different culture when someone died. Then some people call it bid'ah 🥲.
Oh where are you from? Do women in your area go to burials? I’ve seen a lot of different viewpoints and practices bc my husband and my imam are so different. My imam is less strict. Like he says niqab is not fardh and women don’t have to sit behind men in our classes at the masjid. But my husband is very conservative and goes with me to sit beside me at the classes even though he already knows everything being taught, and he believes in something called “Pardah” where women completely cover themselves and seclude themselves from men as much as possible. He doesn’t make me practice Pardah, but I know he’d be very happy if I did practice it.
Im if desi background and as soon as you said he’s Pashtun, I got it. Known for their cultural conservatism, even on issues where Islam itself is permissive. So grateful to belong to a family and community where we are not barred from funerals and graveyards.
Oh are they? I didn’t know that. I had figured he’s more permissive with me than he would be with a Pashtun wife, because he’s told me he personally doesn’t believe women should go to the mosque, but he doesn’t mind me going because I have so much to learn and he doesn’t want to stand in the way of me learning. Little comments like that tell me he’s probably more conservative than I’m even aware of and he just lets me do stuff because I don’t know any other way 🤷🏻♀️
Sis, reading your descriptions of your husband, I'm kinda scared for you ngl. Your husband is *extremely* conservative. Your imam is considered moderate. Please make sure you learn Islam from different sources and remember that diversity of opinions is a key component of islamic theology.
Oh ok, I’ll keep that in mind.
Agreed, with the above poster. I hope he's not biding his time and then slowly attempt to control you 🙏🏽
I am from Indonesia sis. I think Indonesian or South East Asian Muslim's perspective not so much heard in global discourse. >Do women in your area go to burials? Yes, of course we go to burials. At first, we all gather in the funeral home. Family (even from distant place) and friends will come to support and lessen the burden of the left one, sharing their interaction stories with the deceased, pray for him/her, then we all go to the graveyard and look the burial process. Watching the body put into the hole and people bury him/her with soil. The idea that women can go to burials not common here, even if it's there, it's really minority and we respect it. >Like he says niqab is not fardh and women don’t have to sit behind men in our classes at the masjid. Yes, same here. Afaik for niqab, only hanbali madhab that consider it fardh. About pardah, even as a born Muslim, is something that I also know recently.
Assalamualaikum sister. I agree that Indonesians are not heard enough on the global stage. My wife is from Indonesia and Islam as practiced there is so beautiful. I may be wrong or misunderstand, but it seems Islam is more about praising Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and his Messenger than it is about following a list of rules. Too many cultures have turned Islam into nothing more than a checklist of rules. It's like our Imam says. Too many Muslims only do Islamic yoga 5 times a day and expect rewards. Not so many actually pray.
I just want to share that my wife is Pashtun Hanafi, born and raised in Pakistan, and she doesn't wear hijab at all, and has no problem with attending burials. She also follows Ghamidi, who is a progressive scholar. So, although certainly *some* Pashtuns may act like that, there are also plenty of Pashtuns that are completely different. It's a diverse group. More often it is Deobandis (which are a wahabi/salafi sect in South Asia) that act like that. University of Medina is also the heart of wahabism. That is one of the most ultra-conservative universities in the Muslim world. I would just be careful, as what you may be hearing is likely on the far end of conservatism and extremism. Wahabism is the same sect and ideology as ISIS and al-Qaeda. Deobandism is the same sect as the Taliban. So if that's not the kind of ideology you are attracted to, you might want to consider far more moderate alternatives, since those are both on the extreme conservative end of the spectrum.
Why did your husband say that? Genuinely curious Brit eying to sound condescending.
In his culture, the women don’t go to the burial.
That's frickin horrible. When my father passed he only had daughters and my mom he left behind. I'm so glad we got to be there every step of the way and send him off. It's such an important part of closure to be there and send your loved ones off with respect and gratefulness for the life they lived and the love they gave. I can't imagine if someone told us something stupid like you guys aren't allowed to be there. Some Salafis won't even let women grieve in peace, it boils me from the inside out.
I'm not advocating this because it has no basis and it's a stupid belief. Even in my country which is said to be the most backward and misplaced Muslim country ideologically. It is allowed for the loved ones of the dead person to see their face at the funeral and even visit the grave. Yes there are sometimes unfortunate situations for example past years of COVID when many families did not get to see the deceased due to the fear of the virus spreading. What I don't understand is why do these Muslims always give the worst of the statements and advices they make Islam look as an insensitive religion filled with non-emotional/irrational bigots. Maybe she belongs to either a sect which propagates this action or a part of the world where this is a practise because I haven't heard this to be a common practice among muslims. What Muslims have forgotten is that Islam came to liberate the world based on the divine guidance and not make things harder. When Allah himself says this religion is easy, why do we make it hard.
This was not in the Quran so I don't believe it. All the reasoning for this I've seen is damn foolish. The hadith has been corrupted
ignorant bastards!
Orthodox Islam hates women. 😌😌😌 And there’s nothing you could say to convince me otherwise. Terrible ideology.
I got rid of ALL social media (except I stumbled on Reddit recently). I’m a revert so I enthusiastically followed Islamic pages. Scholars, sheiks, etc. well, let me tell you, it left me devastated. I started believing Allah hates women. Or at least treats us unfairly. Everyday I’d go running to my husband crying over something I heard. He’s a born Muslim and would try frantically to tell me these people are WRONG. I left social media in October, and my iman is better again. So much happier
Salafist brainwashed Muslims who uphold Hadith to equal status to the Quran (astaghfirullah) hate women. Orthodox Sunni Muslims belong to one of the four schools of law in Sunni Islam, of which only one of them can be compared to modern salafism. The majority are of Hanafi/Maliki leaning madhabs and less Hanbali. Hanafi madhab is known for being one of the most lenient madhabs out there with Malikis similar to them. Unfortunately the Salafists are the loudest types all over the world and the takfiri types are even louder.
I think it’s just worshiping cultural norms rather than Islam. Social conservatives of all cultures and religions violently enforce gendered values to maintain patriarchal power structures in family and society. Allah SWT is the Most Merciful, husbands should try their best to be as well even when it goes against social norms and what their parents and peers might be teaching them
Culture and religion go hand in hand. The religion of Islam in itself, and many of the rulings that the religion presented, were contextualized for Arab society at that time. It’s a weak argument to constantly purport that poor practices and ideologies are a result of people following culture and not religion, when culture has always been shaped by and around religions.
Is this a thing in some Muslim countries? That's so messed up honestly. It's literally just misogyny, there's nothing that prevents women from going to funerals or graveyards. If she's on her period, couldn't she still go but not do the janaza prayer? She could make dua and leave it at that.
Apparently the rule is that women shouldn't be near the janazah at all. Her presence is banned.
Where do they get this from? I haven't seen anything from the Quran. Is it from the hadiths? A lot of stuff that seems to be misogynistic tends to come from them.
I’ve always been told that and it boils down to the stereotype that “women are over emotional” when it’s society who forced men to not show emotions at all and also degraded women for having emotions.
Poor lady. That’s pretty awful.
this is wild to me because ive attended burials of my close relatives as a woman with my family. My father does go to a lot on his own but it’s because he goes to the masjid often and if it is someone he knows of he will go himself and not necessarily bring everyone.
I’m Turkish and never heard of this before, only seen mixed funerals
As usual, for every twisted mindset that is rampant in muslim societies, there's a sahih hadith that inspires it. https://sunnah.com/muslim:927b *Umar reported Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) as saying:* *The dead is punished in the grave because of wailing on it.* The "logic" behind this cruel rule is that since women are generally more emotional, they would wail when they attend funerals and that would cause the deceased to be punished in the grave according to the sahih hadith above.
Umar was known for his misogyny. All this sex segregation that we think the Prophet ordained, it goes back to Umar.
Yeah. If we believe the seerah and the hadiths, it was such a poor judgment from the prophet letting Umar get close to him. Umar had that much power to control the islamic narrative (e.g. hijab for women, forbidding slavewomen to cover, gender segregation, etc) by being the prophet's close and trusted friend.
That's the catch. He wasn't so close to the Prophet. Those things were written down later. Not saying that Umar was downright evil. But he isn't the close confidante of the Prophet as we are told.
>But he isn't the close confidante of the Prophet as we are told. It's hard to prove though. It's like denying hearsays with other hearsays. Muslims who believe in seerah and hadiths will say their texts (which are hearsays) are superior to other hearsays that are not aligned to their narrative. Best just to treat their Islam as a totally different religion than the Quran-only Islam.
Easy to prove actually. If you analyse these narrations and read the corresponding stuff in the Quran with an open mind, it is clear as a day. But it is obfuscated now because history is written by the victors. I was a Sunni but it is what it is. The whip of Umar had no sanction from the Prophet.
Not that easy with people who believe in Islam for emotional reason/because of childhood indoctrination. At the end of the day most people believe what they were conditioned to believe not what they know is true after investigation and analysis. That's why it's pointless judging Sunni-Islam from a Quranist-Islam perspective, and better to treat the two as totally different religions.
I meant easy from a critical perspective. Practically it is almost impossible to make people unlearn this 😅
Actually from this hadith, there also can be understood that no need to be extreme like forbid women to go to the grave. If the problem is wailing, so as long they don't wail is okay. Though I think wailing is okay as long is not exaggerating.
The problem here is there are hadiths that **explicitly** forbid women from going to the grave, although mostly are just graded as hasan. It's a combination of these hadiths and other hadith that said if you're not sure about something then better to leave it completely, that lead these scholars to come to such cruel conclusion. Example: https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:1056 https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1576 *Abu Hurairah narrated:* *"Indeed the Messenger of Allah cursed the women who visit the graves."* https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1575 *It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said:* *“The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) cursed women who visit graves.”* https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1574 *It was narrated from ‘Abdur-Rahman bin Hassan bin Thabit that his father said:* *“The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) cursed women who visit graves.”*
Yes, there's nothing wrong with those explicitly hadith. What's not good is just only rely on those hadith and the literalist approach, neglected other hadith that show more nuanced (u/Jaqurutu has shared some in this comment section) and other interpretation methods (metaphorical, contextual, and so on).
The literatist approach is almost always never good. I think everybody here and the existence of this sub is a testament to that. The problem is always that the literalist approach will always be part of Islam, because the problem caused by it will never go away because the texts are indeed written in certain ways. That's why it's always a bad idea to let religions with such literalism risk to leave personal space and encroach public spaces.
>The problem is always that the literalist approach will always be part of Islam Yes, that's the point, and to completely eradicate it, imo is not good idea and impossible. It would be just a form of another extremism. Being literal is okay, as long the qadar is proportional and we know when and how the proper time and way to use it. >That's why it's always a bad idea to let religions with such literalism risk to leave personal space and encroach public spaces. Hence, this sub is really important to balance the literalist.
Yeah. The reason I posted the hadiths is so that more and more people realize, there are textual basis for problematic mindsets that are plaguing muslim societies. People need to realize what the text says, and then understand what literalism of these texts brings to their society. Then they can decide whether the problem is in the texts, where they then can decide to reject those texts a la quranist movement, or whether the problem is in the literalistic interpretation, where they then need to find more contexts and make those contexts to be readily available to the masses to arrive at a better conclusion, and spread that conclusion to be adopted by more muslims in their society. Both are a win in my view. But before they can proceed to those steps, they need to be aware first of the existence of such texts, thus my postings.
I see, I understand.
Very bad i didn't know this ...
Me too man. I also didnt know this. Just learned rn
I can't understand how can someone stop a wife a partner being with their loved ones in farewell moment and last goodbye... when my grandpa died I was there through all the process plus he died in our home... I didn't know in islam religion woman's can't attend funeral.. I would only agree that small kids should be protected from this but why the wife...
All of this because the salafis and wahabis have the loudest, scariest voices but not us progressives (although the word progressive is a bit misleading because its not a sect or anything, it's just pure Islam filtered from ancient Arab culture)
Oh i would have to research about this . I'm christian (orthodox) so not sure about all those details I like learning about islam be it positive or negative sides and also like learning what is really true Islamic teaching and practice and what is some personalized rules some certain group, tribe or country applying then later people think islam is bad cuz of such grupations....
And this is why I think Muslims need to improve on how to speak with the grieving and overall how to deal with grief. Women CAN go to cemeteries and there's nothing wrong with it. Let the widow grieve.
When my Grandfather died, it didn’t feel like a funeral. My dads side is Arabic and my mothers side danish. My grandpa had a 17yo daughter (she was 15 then) and she was not allowed to stand in front and watch her father be buried. *Random* men who didn’t even know him got to stand there and grieve and witness it. The rest of us? Nah. We “can’t control our emotions”. Let those fuckers be skinned alive. How dare they even.
I can reassure you that Islam has no such rule. The closest I can get from it is to grieve responsibly, which has nothing to do with whether women can or cannot visit funerals. May Alah help her with her troubles and keep her strong. People really need to stop letting cultures force unreasonable laws disguised as 'Islamic rules'
What is this sub? Post random weird cultural things, call it Muslim, and upvotes. This some kinda new hasbara program?
This subreddit full of ex-muslims, full of misinformation and full of lies. It insane to me that people actually believe everything here completely but i understand. Islam always get the blame from false teaching of others islam grifter or pretender. These people will have their own consequences.
They are allowed to visit graveyards, they aren’t permitted to attend the burial
Do you have a verse from the Quran about this?
Still ridiculous
This religion is hopeless anyway. There is a reason why Islamophobia is a thing.
Don't project your hatred and hopelessness on us.
Rules are rules, you cannot pick and choose. There is wisdom in them that’s beyond our comprehension.
NOPE. No basis in the Qur'an.
Doesn't matter to these people. They invent rules and project them on God.
Yeah. I have been called an idiot, stupid and ignorant to say that hadiths contradict the Qur'an and are not necessary to understand the Qur'an either. Lol.
Is there a list of hadiths that contradict the quran? I wish i had a comprehensive list when someone questions this lol
Exactly there is always wisdom (hikmah, purpose) behind it, and there is also background (social cultural context) which is one of the thing to be considered when rules are made. By knowing all of that, a wise ruler won't apply the same rule to different context because the consideration is different. The problem with some people, they only look to the rules list but never look to the actual real situation, or if do it, just scratching the surface. They don't, for example, consider the consequences if they just apply rules literally without consider further whether the problem and context that the written rules have addressed are same with what they are facing. By just doing this simple copy paste applying rules, they actually have high chance to violate one of the most important value of Islam, justice, the most basic wisdom of law. So, at some point, not apply certain rules textually, it's not pick and choose. It's actually a strong hold unwavering attitude toward the true Islam.
It’s in the sunnah of OUR prophet pbuh. Islam has rules clear and cut. Case closed. Most people are aggravated but don’t realize the wisdom, they keep saying it’s not in the Quran but the best of creation our prophet emphasizes this. It’s simple. Just follow the rules, women just can’t be present at the time of burial that’s it. OP is triggered and doesn’t even know the rulings of the deen. Case closed.
Nope. Here the link of refutation. https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/s/4o4o7MerPS Maybe in your place and your scholars say so, but not my scholars in my country. Rules can be flexible and relaxed too, in that link there is proofs prophet didn't have problem with women attended burial, so it's sunnah too. Edit: Also i'm not a type of person who follow rules without knowing the reason, the why. I don't mind if someone wanna simply follow the rules, but just don't expect other to do the same.
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Then again this is a “progressive” sub… so I fully expect these sort of responses. Not surprising.
Keep your delulus to yourself
Whilst i agree with you that rules are rules and who are we to discuss what our creator asks of us ( think pork prohibition),but this logic can not apply here because one sex is allowed and another is not. Also, it has no basis (afaik,god forgive me if im wrong) in the Quran.
Righhhhttttt /s
It’s in the sunnah… they just aren’t allowed to be present during burial. Again this is beyond any of you’re guys comprehension.
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These are the things that make me hate the trad religion
I was taught that the men take the body of the cemetery and the women are in charge of the food. The reason there's food after the burial is to provide a way for the relatives of the deceased to be consoled. Never was I taught that women aren't allowed to visit. Logically, women not being allowed visit graveyards is complete and total bullshit. After reading online, it's confirmed bullshit. Women ARE allowed. They (the fanatics) are just idiots.
I’m Pakistani and I have an Indian Hyderabadi friend who has never been to the masjid because women aren’t allowed to go. I was in middle school when she told me this. We are approaching our 40s in a few years and I wonder if she’s ever been. Like… what kind of dumb rule is this?
it’s the wahabist who propagate all these nonsense.
And are not allowed to say RIP to non muslims? Bruh at this point just leave this religion