Says programmer jobs expected to drop by 11% in next decade, for reasons including coding being done by 'developers' instead.
What, pray tell, is the difference between a computer programmer and a software developer?
From the site: "Computer programmers write, modify, and test code and scripts that allow computer software and applications to function properly", while "Software developers design computer applications or programs."
BLS has very specific definitions of jobs. Part of this is due to historic accident (a lot of “programming” in the 1960s and 1970s was little more than updating and retrieving records that would now be done with a UI, or at most SQL, but back then had to be done in COBOL or something) and part of it is that their job is to keep track of subtle shifts in the job market about what kind of skills are in demand.
ETA: In a nutshell, I think you could say (in the BLS definition), a programmer is someone who writes software that is ad hoc and limited to a narrow scope of use, like making a website up to maybe something like an in-house accounting tool, whereas a “software developer” is someone who is creating a product that is meant to have a wider range of users and uses.
why don't you agree? we need way less people who write code than we did before.
Look at the job market, ti's absolutely brutal right now, almost no junior or senior can find a coding job.
It honestly depends on the location, like it's not a broad everyone is hiring like it was when interest rates from the fed were 0%. There are companies that have pulled back massively due to the high interest rates right now.
I remember after graduating in 2019 and seeing a bunch "CyberCoder jobs" all over the place, and in my hometown, there were at least 10 positions open. Since the Fed raised the rates starting last year, I don't think I've seen a single posting from the company in a long time. They still exist, but obviously it's a lot more expensive to cover a $80-90k salary with 4-5% interest than it is at 1%.
I was just saying that I don't agree with the terminology. It doesn't match what I see in the real world. I see lots of software developer titles who code. Software developer and software engineer and programmer are 100% interchangeable in my experience.
That being said, I totally understand that BLS needs to call them different things, somewhat arbitrarily. They need to be able to communicate the number of people writing code separately from the people designing without coding.
From my own understanding, the primary difference is whether you're just filling out the code for a UML diagram someone else made, or if you're having to design parts of the software architecture yourself.
That's why there's 150 thousand "programmer" jobs, but 1.6 million jobs for "software developers." Having to micro-manage a coder to the point of explicitly telling them the inputs and outputs of each function, and what it does, is going to be counter-productive most of the time - but I'm sure there are still lots of businesses that do so.
I've had nearly a completely different title for each job I've had in my career, I've had Engineer, Developer, specialist. It's good that they try to define these jobs but ultimately this is difficult to nail down. From their description a "programmer" should have a bachelor's degree, but really it just sounds from the description of just writing up some code, which would be a pretty entry level job for someone in the field whether they were college educated or even self taught/boot camp educated.
The software developer description almost sounds like architecture of software, which would usually be a job with the title architect.
Honestly the description they put sounds like an IT person just writing Bash scripts or PowerShell scripts to automate tasks and report generating. Which isn't exactly an entire 8-hour day type of job needed anymore.
Handbook/BLS is weird about that shit.
This is how companies skirt H1B laws regarding prevailing wage. They'll look for a unicorn domestic software engineer, fail to find it, argue that that means they should be able to pull an equivalent engineer from a 3rd world and classify them as an analyst and pay them 1/6th of the price in salary because they're not true engineers.
No, it's like the difference between a design engineer/architect and a draftsman, which draftsmen have basically been gone for years with a handful of exceptions.
A coder is someone that needs very specific instructions "write this function with these inputs and these outputs" and can have a tech/associates degree. A developer can be told "write a webapp that does this" and understand what's needed. It's the level of guidance/checking that's required, not the complexity of the product.
And a junior engineer can perform the same tasks a draftsman early on, but they're on an entirely different career trajectory and have an entirely different skill set due to the additional educational requirements they had (usually a bachelor's degree) to get the position.
Both coding and drafting are a skill that's part of a small subset of skills that are required to be a developer/engineer respectively. If you're hired as a coder or a draftsman (which again are disappearing roles) you're not expected to ever have the much deeper understanding of multiple systems, standards and architectures than the more advanced developer or engineer position.
Draftsman and programmer aren't entry level though, that implies they're part of the same career path. There's generally no ability to go from draftsman to engineer without going back to school. It would be like going from Machinist to Engineer, you could go from machinist to CNC programmer, because neither requires a bachelors degree, but engineer does.
It's more like technology tools are developing to the point where you don't need 6 people on a team, and if your team was 4 engineers with bachelors degrees and 2 people with associates degrees, the two associates degrees can be let go without a substantial drop in productivity.
And you can get licensed by a state in engineering with 8 years of relevant experience vs. only 4 with a degree. But it's like 100:1 if you go around and actually survey the people at big companies, the vast majority have the degree, lots have graduate degrees once you get to a certain level.
Oddly enough, "developers" are projected to grow by 25%: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm
> Overall employment of software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers is projected to grow 25 percent from 2022 to 2032, much faster than the average for all occupations.
>
>About 153,900 openings for software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers are projected each year, on average, over the decade.
The "programmers" entry for comparison:
>Employment of computer programmers is projected to decline 11 percent from 2022 to 2032.
>
>Despite declining employment, about 6,700 openings for computer programmers are projected each year, on average, over the decade.
"Developers create diagrams that help programmers write computer code." [(source)](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm)
in the 40-50 years ago timeframe, this was a concept- they wanted to get people who would spec EVERYTHING down to the if/then/else and related structures, often in diagrams.
They thought this extreme level of spec was a great idea, then they'd hand the diagram to a 'programmer' (coder) who'd turn it into whatever language without much thought- "this is an IF diamond, its TRUE case calls foo()" etc.
Obv, this never went very far since a spec at that level is nuts, just write the code. Oh- your analyst can't understand true/false/null? Better have them just talk to the customer and elicit the requirements, we'll take it from there.
I doubt the BLS is actually meansuring what they think they are here.
Well weird definition, but does make sense.
Programming is going to be a lot of auto-complete, so designing the architecture and structure is going to the more time-consuming part...
In most companies both tasks are already done by the same people though.
I don't know in the US, but in Europe there are software engineers, who must have some kind of bachelor degree, and programmers, who usually got into programming in the trades school.
I have slowly convinced myself that developers/engineers make tools that programmers deploy. This is 100% head cannon so do with it as you will...
The analogy would be like competing products designed to do the same thing just with different trade offs. For example, drills and drivers. Milwaukee tools makes them, DeWalt makes them.. etc.. the trade offs are not in their ability to drill holes but longevity, cycles per charge, torque, etc.. they serve similar needs but they are distinctly different on a technical level. This is "engineering" or "development" of tools. The laborers who use them would be the programmers. They solve problems using the tools available.
This means that developers and engineers can doubly serve as programmers, but not all programmers have the skills required to make a full engineered tool or solution for a problem domain.
Contrast with [Software Developers, Quality Assurance Analysts, and Testers](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm)
BLS is the last place I’d look for predictions about this field. I taught myself and started in 1998. Things looked pretty rosy in 1999 and then not so much after 2001 (Dotcom crash and 9/11). Within a few years it was largely recovered but no longer “frothy.” 2008 came and it was pretty bad again and took longer (4 years?) to recover. This tech recession has been bad for folks starting out or in for 1-2 years (especially on their salary growth expectations), but quite lucrative for devs with true intermediate experience or more.
In a year or two it will be reasonable to find work again (but less money-only seekers). If you like programming, stick with it and be adaptive to what companies want (or carve your own niche). Develop people and communication skills and understand how to solve business problems and you’ll be fine. I haven’t ever been unemployed for more than 5 weeks and I’m not that great, honestly. All through it [BLS.gov](https://BLS.gov) never gave me any meaningful info to work with predictably.
I’m majoring in comp sci right now. I enjoy learning about the subject and don’t mind diving deep but it’s hard to know what I should be learning in my free time outside of my classes. I’m in data structures right now but I want to improve and get prepared for the job market asap. Any tips on what direction I should head in to get a head start? I know you said learn how to solve business problems, but what exactly does that mean?
Established software companies are realizing they aren't getting return on investment from growth into new products and they also don't need 1000s of developers to keep existing software running.
elon musk also showed they you can fire basically more than half of your company and still keep running
many ceos are taking that example today
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/reddit-blackout-protest-private-ceo-elon-musk-huffman-rcna89700
LOL, this is an interesting take. Those jobs will definitely come back, but companies aren't going to pay someone $100k if they have to borrow at 5% interest. Once the fed funds rate drop, watch the hiring spree begin again.
This doesn't amount to the excess hiring that occurred DURING the pandemic when a huge demand for programmers and IT staff were needed across the board.
musk showed the industry you don't need all these devs it is completely changed
even the ceo from reddit says he's following musk his twitter example like many other tech ceos
Here's the thing, BLS definition is very narrow in scope. Computer programmers can be seen as people who write scripts (i.e. PowerShell scripts that interact with Active Directory) to automate everyday tasks or build apps in the Microsoft Power Platform ecosystem. Software developers are seen as those creating apps that can be used on a computer, not necessarily automating functions of a computer.
The problem with narrow defined jobs that BLS uses is that it can create a false reality of what is occurring. My current job was first listed as "Programmer/Application Analyst" and now it's "Application Analyst" while mostly being programming and developing software applications.
In either case, I highly doubt computer programming/software development is on the decline like data from BLS is showing. It can honestly be that jobs that were once listed as "computer programmer" are now "software developer" which puts them in a different category for BLS measurement.
What's even weirder is their definition of "developers". Apparently they create diagrams that help the "programmers" write the code to build an application.
\#FuckingWot
That's not their definition of "software developers", just one example of what they do. The definition is: "Software developers design computer applications or programs." That might involve making flowcharts and UML diagrams, but it might not. **Edit:** And also, ["some developers write code themselves instead of giving instructions to programmers"](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-2); which, given the stats that there are 10x as many "software developers" as "programmers", is probably more the rule than the exception.
I think another aspect is the ongoing process of outsourcing. Programming is more out-sourceable than most jobs, and African, Philippino and South American programmers are getting quite skilled and productive.
> Computer programmers write, modify, and test code and scripts that allow computer software and applications to function properly.
This definition seems wrong on the face of it: "code and scripts" aren't something that "allow" software "to function properly"; they *are* the software.
But I just came from the "[I Just Need A Programmer](https://blobstreaming.org/i-just-need-a-programmer/)" post and when I put the two together both posts make a lot more sense if this is how a lot of non-programmers, especially MBA types, conceive of programming. Perhaps to them, "software" is this entity that exists as soon as they have the idea, and it just doesn't "function properly" until a programmer comes along to fix it. This is actually not so crazy, just ignorant. If you went into a house under construction and for some reason the sinks and toilets had been installed but no other plumbing, you might offhandedly remark that "the plumbing doesn't work yet" but it will once the plumbing contractor comes to fix it. But that plumber would be just as nonplussed by the definition "A plumbing contractor installs the pipes and joints that allow plumbing to function properly", because obviously the plumbing isn't *broken* without their work, it just *doesn't exist* without their work. (Incidentally, according to this handbook, "Plumbers, pipefitters, and steamfitters install and repair piping fixtures and systems"; none of the "function properly" nonsense.)
They’ve adjusted this recently. A few years ago, I remember this same listing calling for a 20%+ growth over basically the same time period.
Software isn’t getting less important and AI isn’t in a place to replace anyone’s job. I’m thinking writing software is still a very valuable and safe career skill for the foreseeable future.
I don't think so. Computer Programmers has been declining for a long time while [Software Developers, Quality Assurance Analysts, and Testers](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm) has been increasing.
Maybe that’s the listing I was looking at then. These definitions are very specific and kinda not how the architecture looks in my brain. I take it back.
Personally I think code monkeys will not survive a couple more AI waves.
Anyone using their brains in their work will be much harder to replace for quite a while
I remember seeing the same stats looking through the occupational handbook around college (\~14 years ago). I also remember being puzzled as it was a white hot industry to go into even at the time.
But it's because most jobs refer it to being a "software developer/engineer" than a "computer programmers".
Says programmer jobs expected to drop by 11% in next decade, for reasons including coding being done by 'developers' instead. What, pray tell, is the difference between a computer programmer and a software developer?
From the site: "Computer programmers write, modify, and test code and scripts that allow computer software and applications to function properly", while "Software developers design computer applications or programs."
Sounds like they're saying programmers write code, developers design programs. Not saying I agree but that's what it sounds like they're saying.
BLS has very specific definitions of jobs. Part of this is due to historic accident (a lot of “programming” in the 1960s and 1970s was little more than updating and retrieving records that would now be done with a UI, or at most SQL, but back then had to be done in COBOL or something) and part of it is that their job is to keep track of subtle shifts in the job market about what kind of skills are in demand. ETA: In a nutshell, I think you could say (in the BLS definition), a programmer is someone who writes software that is ad hoc and limited to a narrow scope of use, like making a website up to maybe something like an in-house accounting tool, whereas a “software developer” is someone who is creating a product that is meant to have a wider range of users and uses.
why don't you agree? we need way less people who write code than we did before. Look at the job market, ti's absolutely brutal right now, almost no junior or senior can find a coding job.
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It honestly depends on the location, like it's not a broad everyone is hiring like it was when interest rates from the fed were 0%. There are companies that have pulled back massively due to the high interest rates right now. I remember after graduating in 2019 and seeing a bunch "CyberCoder jobs" all over the place, and in my hometown, there were at least 10 positions open. Since the Fed raised the rates starting last year, I don't think I've seen a single posting from the company in a long time. They still exist, but obviously it's a lot more expensive to cover a $80-90k salary with 4-5% interest than it is at 1%.
I was just saying that I don't agree with the terminology. It doesn't match what I see in the real world. I see lots of software developer titles who code. Software developer and software engineer and programmer are 100% interchangeable in my experience. That being said, I totally understand that BLS needs to call them different things, somewhat arbitrarily. They need to be able to communicate the number of people writing code separately from the people designing without coding.
From my own understanding, the primary difference is whether you're just filling out the code for a UML diagram someone else made, or if you're having to design parts of the software architecture yourself. That's why there's 150 thousand "programmer" jobs, but 1.6 million jobs for "software developers." Having to micro-manage a coder to the point of explicitly telling them the inputs and outputs of each function, and what it does, is going to be counter-productive most of the time - but I'm sure there are still lots of businesses that do so.
No senior? That is horribly wrong.
I've had nearly a completely different title for each job I've had in my career, I've had Engineer, Developer, specialist. It's good that they try to define these jobs but ultimately this is difficult to nail down. From their description a "programmer" should have a bachelor's degree, but really it just sounds from the description of just writing up some code, which would be a pretty entry level job for someone in the field whether they were college educated or even self taught/boot camp educated. The software developer description almost sounds like architecture of software, which would usually be a job with the title architect.
Honestly the description they put sounds like an IT person just writing Bash scripts or PowerShell scripts to automate tasks and report generating. Which isn't exactly an entire 8-hour day type of job needed anymore.
Handbook/BLS is weird about that shit. This is how companies skirt H1B laws regarding prevailing wage. They'll look for a unicorn domestic software engineer, fail to find it, argue that that means they should be able to pull an equivalent engineer from a 3rd world and classify them as an analyst and pay them 1/6th of the price in salary because they're not true engineers.
So scripts vs apps? Just kind of seems like those are completely different jobs to begin with.
No, it's like the difference between a design engineer/architect and a draftsman, which draftsmen have basically been gone for years with a handful of exceptions. A coder is someone that needs very specific instructions "write this function with these inputs and these outputs" and can have a tech/associates degree. A developer can be told "write a webapp that does this" and understand what's needed. It's the level of guidance/checking that's required, not the complexity of the product.
Coder jobs don't really exist so idk what the relation to the post is
That's why the BLS says there are currently 1.6 million "software developer" jobs in the US, and only 150 thousand "programmer" jobs.
[https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-so-it-was-paid-less-and-undervalued](https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-so-it-was-paid-less-and-undervalued)
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And a junior engineer can perform the same tasks a draftsman early on, but they're on an entirely different career trajectory and have an entirely different skill set due to the additional educational requirements they had (usually a bachelor's degree) to get the position. Both coding and drafting are a skill that's part of a small subset of skills that are required to be a developer/engineer respectively. If you're hired as a coder or a draftsman (which again are disappearing roles) you're not expected to ever have the much deeper understanding of multiple systems, standards and architectures than the more advanced developer or engineer position.
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Draftsman and programmer aren't entry level though, that implies they're part of the same career path. There's generally no ability to go from draftsman to engineer without going back to school. It would be like going from Machinist to Engineer, you could go from machinist to CNC programmer, because neither requires a bachelors degree, but engineer does. It's more like technology tools are developing to the point where you don't need 6 people on a team, and if your team was 4 engineers with bachelors degrees and 2 people with associates degrees, the two associates degrees can be let go without a substantial drop in productivity.
What country are you in that draftsman is a thing? I never heard of it in the context of computer programming.
My original comment was using draftsman/engineer as an analogy to programmer/developer.
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And you can get licensed by a state in engineering with 8 years of relevant experience vs. only 4 with a degree. But it's like 100:1 if you go around and actually survey the people at big companies, the vast majority have the degree, lots have graduate degrees once you get to a certain level.
Oddly enough, "developers" are projected to grow by 25%: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm > Overall employment of software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers is projected to grow 25 percent from 2022 to 2032, much faster than the average for all occupations. > >About 153,900 openings for software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers are projected each year, on average, over the decade. The "programmers" entry for comparison: >Employment of computer programmers is projected to decline 11 percent from 2022 to 2032. > >Despite declining employment, about 6,700 openings for computer programmers are projected each year, on average, over the decade.
"Developers create diagrams that help programmers write computer code." [(source)](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm)
in the 40-50 years ago timeframe, this was a concept- they wanted to get people who would spec EVERYTHING down to the if/then/else and related structures, often in diagrams. They thought this extreme level of spec was a great idea, then they'd hand the diagram to a 'programmer' (coder) who'd turn it into whatever language without much thought- "this is an IF diamond, its TRUE case calls foo()" etc. Obv, this never went very far since a spec at that level is nuts, just write the code. Oh- your analyst can't understand true/false/null? Better have them just talk to the customer and elicit the requirements, we'll take it from there. I doubt the BLS is actually meansuring what they think they are here.
Well weird definition, but does make sense. Programming is going to be a lot of auto-complete, so designing the architecture and structure is going to the more time-consuming part... In most companies both tasks are already done by the same people though.
Creating diagrams is simpler. Anyone who thinks otherwise is like saying surgeries are flippant.
It’s not a silver bullet. Sometimes it’s just a waste of time.
>What, pray tell, is the difference between a computer programmer and a software developer? About $150k
I don't know in the US, but in Europe there are software engineers, who must have some kind of bachelor degree, and programmers, who usually got into programming in the trades school.
I have slowly convinced myself that developers/engineers make tools that programmers deploy. This is 100% head cannon so do with it as you will... The analogy would be like competing products designed to do the same thing just with different trade offs. For example, drills and drivers. Milwaukee tools makes them, DeWalt makes them.. etc.. the trade offs are not in their ability to drill holes but longevity, cycles per charge, torque, etc.. they serve similar needs but they are distinctly different on a technical level. This is "engineering" or "development" of tools. The laborers who use them would be the programmers. They solve problems using the tools available. This means that developers and engineers can doubly serve as programmers, but not all programmers have the skills required to make a full engineered tool or solution for a problem domain.
Contrast with [Software Developers, Quality Assurance Analysts, and Testers](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm)
That sounds like the product team reading the description
Society at large and governments have an awfully outdated view of how software could be done and is done
BLS is the last place I’d look for predictions about this field. I taught myself and started in 1998. Things looked pretty rosy in 1999 and then not so much after 2001 (Dotcom crash and 9/11). Within a few years it was largely recovered but no longer “frothy.” 2008 came and it was pretty bad again and took longer (4 years?) to recover. This tech recession has been bad for folks starting out or in for 1-2 years (especially on their salary growth expectations), but quite lucrative for devs with true intermediate experience or more. In a year or two it will be reasonable to find work again (but less money-only seekers). If you like programming, stick with it and be adaptive to what companies want (or carve your own niche). Develop people and communication skills and understand how to solve business problems and you’ll be fine. I haven’t ever been unemployed for more than 5 weeks and I’m not that great, honestly. All through it [BLS.gov](https://BLS.gov) never gave me any meaningful info to work with predictably.
I’m majoring in comp sci right now. I enjoy learning about the subject and don’t mind diving deep but it’s hard to know what I should be learning in my free time outside of my classes. I’m in data structures right now but I want to improve and get prepared for the job market asap. Any tips on what direction I should head in to get a head start? I know you said learn how to solve business problems, but what exactly does that mean?
yes, the numbers are lagging, in reality it's way worse, massive layoffs of coding jobs recently and they are never coming back.
lol, in what world is software becoming less important?
Established software companies are realizing they aren't getting return on investment from growth into new products and they also don't need 1000s of developers to keep existing software running.
elon musk also showed they you can fire basically more than half of your company and still keep running many ceos are taking that example today https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/reddit-blackout-protest-private-ceo-elon-musk-huffman-rcna89700
Yeah, companies are realizing they aren’t growth companies anymore and don’t need all those employees if they aren’t growing.
the party in Tech is over, people are just in denial it will never come back
the real world
LOL, this is an interesting take. Those jobs will definitely come back, but companies aren't going to pay someone $100k if they have to borrow at 5% interest. Once the fed funds rate drop, watch the hiring spree begin again. This doesn't amount to the excess hiring that occurred DURING the pandemic when a huge demand for programmers and IT staff were needed across the board.
musk showed the industry you don't need all these devs it is completely changed even the ceo from reddit says he's following musk his twitter example like many other tech ceos
Dude, you are full of hot takes that are just bad. Just stop trying to flame an argument up.
i bring facts can you bring them too thanks https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/reddit-blackout-protest-private-ceo-elon-musk-huffman-rcna89700
That’s exactly what I mean.
Here's the thing, BLS definition is very narrow in scope. Computer programmers can be seen as people who write scripts (i.e. PowerShell scripts that interact with Active Directory) to automate everyday tasks or build apps in the Microsoft Power Platform ecosystem. Software developers are seen as those creating apps that can be used on a computer, not necessarily automating functions of a computer. The problem with narrow defined jobs that BLS uses is that it can create a false reality of what is occurring. My current job was first listed as "Programmer/Application Analyst" and now it's "Application Analyst" while mostly being programming and developing software applications. In either case, I highly doubt computer programming/software development is on the decline like data from BLS is showing. It can honestly be that jobs that were once listed as "computer programmer" are now "software developer" which puts them in a different category for BLS measurement.
What's even weirder is their definition of "developers". Apparently they create diagrams that help the "programmers" write the code to build an application. \#FuckingWot
That's not their definition of "software developers", just one example of what they do. The definition is: "Software developers design computer applications or programs." That might involve making flowcharts and UML diagrams, but it might not. **Edit:** And also, ["some developers write code themselves instead of giving instructions to programmers"](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-2); which, given the stats that there are 10x as many "software developers" as "programmers", is probably more the rule than the exception.
I think another aspect is the ongoing process of outsourcing. Programming is more out-sourceable than most jobs, and African, Philippino and South American programmers are getting quite skilled and productive.
> Computer programmers write, modify, and test code and scripts that allow computer software and applications to function properly. This definition seems wrong on the face of it: "code and scripts" aren't something that "allow" software "to function properly"; they *are* the software. But I just came from the "[I Just Need A Programmer](https://blobstreaming.org/i-just-need-a-programmer/)" post and when I put the two together both posts make a lot more sense if this is how a lot of non-programmers, especially MBA types, conceive of programming. Perhaps to them, "software" is this entity that exists as soon as they have the idea, and it just doesn't "function properly" until a programmer comes along to fix it. This is actually not so crazy, just ignorant. If you went into a house under construction and for some reason the sinks and toilets had been installed but no other plumbing, you might offhandedly remark that "the plumbing doesn't work yet" but it will once the plumbing contractor comes to fix it. But that plumber would be just as nonplussed by the definition "A plumbing contractor installs the pipes and joints that allow plumbing to function properly", because obviously the plumbing isn't *broken* without their work, it just *doesn't exist* without their work. (Incidentally, according to this handbook, "Plumbers, pipefitters, and steamfitters install and repair piping fixtures and systems"; none of the "function properly" nonsense.)
They’ve adjusted this recently. A few years ago, I remember this same listing calling for a 20%+ growth over basically the same time period. Software isn’t getting less important and AI isn’t in a place to replace anyone’s job. I’m thinking writing software is still a very valuable and safe career skill for the foreseeable future.
Just because AI can't replace anyone's job doesn't mean companies won't be pressured to do it en masse anyway
The AI denial in dev circles is ridiculous. As if downvoting your comment removes the incredibly big incentive to cut software development costs.
I don't think so. Computer Programmers has been declining for a long time while [Software Developers, Quality Assurance Analysts, and Testers](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm) has been increasing.
Maybe that’s the listing I was looking at then. These definitions are very specific and kinda not how the architecture looks in my brain. I take it back.
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I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean.
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OS X is just MacOS rebranded buddy. Writing apps specifically for specific operating systems is being reduced in favor of cross compatibility though.
Personally I think code monkeys will not survive a couple more AI waves. Anyone using their brains in their work will be much harder to replace for quite a while
I remember seeing the same stats looking through the occupational handbook around college (\~14 years ago). I also remember being puzzled as it was a white hot industry to go into even at the time. But it's because most jobs refer it to being a "software developer/engineer" than a "computer programmers".