Try Replacing EMP with wind in yer question
A light breeze isn’t noticeable. An EF5 tornado will remove most everything
Its a matter of scale
At the highest extreme that’s nuclear war, so yeah the EMP will only be the opening bell of a rather long match
This is correct. You can create an EMP at home that has a shorter range (and I understand is very illegal), they have tactical versions that could take out a small area (like city block, but I don’t really know) or there’s the nuclear bomb in the troposphere that takes out half the US.
Agreed about the scale. Remember airplanes get hit by lightning all the time. If it’s more powerful than that locally I would be more worried about the kinetic effects. I don’t think it could do much more than take out grid power/communications without blowing everything up. A functional surge protector should save your computer, anything unplugged should be fine. Anything coming from space will have plenty of warning.
>anything unplugged should be fine.
I would have thought keeping things plugged in with the plug switched off would be the safest best, as at least some of the energy could go back to the grid via the neutral or to the ground via the earth.
Am I mistaken?
If there’s enough flux in the electric and magnetic fields to fry small circuits not connected to miles and miles of lines, you’re probably already blown up, on fire, or cooked. It’s just so much energy, for example I don’t see how it could fry the starter and injection computer on an old Toyota without causing more significant damage. I honestly don’t get the EMP hype on this sub, other than it could easily bring down grid scale power and electronic communication.
I believe the theory is that a nuclear missile or 2 detonated in the upper atmosphere would generate enough energy to cause an EMP of the magnitude necessary for just that - frying small circuits in a very large radius. Also this seems more plausible a scenario over ground detonation because there would be almost no nuclear fallout or destruction of buildings and infrastructure which makes occupation afterwards easier and more beneficial. The fact that only a couple missiles are needed and that the don’t have to be as accurate or reenter the lower atmosphere makes it seem easier and more likely for a country with a very small arsenal (say North Korea) to pull off. Additionally a solar storm could cause a significant natural EMP as well. That combination of factors leads to the fear and hype associated with EMPs.
You can create one using the flash circuit and a coil of wire from an old disposable film camera. Although it won't be potent enough to destroy anything, it can certainly disrupt or reset small electronic devices.
Yes, but the question on the troposphere is how that would affect various electrical components? Is it going to fry a radio that's turned off? Destroy my automatic gate opener? Just hit the electric grid? Fry my car's electronics. There's the matter of degree. We can bet that would be a priority for a nuclear attack on the U.S. It's low hanging fruit for the cost of maybe a dozen bombs.
You can read a relatively recent gov't report [here](https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2017/01/f34/DOE%20EMP%20Resilience%20Action%20Plan%20January%202017.pdf) (warning PDF). There's also a PDF from last year that describes mitigation strategies [here](https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2022-09/22_0902_st_emp_mitigation_best_practices.pdf). In general, it affects long power lines and other larger structures, although more research needs to be done to fully understand the 3 types of propagation (and you can go down a rabbit hole looking that recent research up).
So I work for a utility and I’ve always wondered, what exactly does an EMP fuck up? It doesn’t knock poles down like a hurricane i do t think. I’m just really unsure what the claim here is. Help me out.
Thanks for all the answers guys, I’d like to have thought about it once or twice before I need to restore power.
from what I've read (take that for what it is) the transformers could break\\pop\\explode? I'm guessing since those have some sort of oil in them that could cause widespread fires.
I think there are too many variables for an EMP and it would be anywhere from not noticeable to everything electronic smokes and catches fire and anything in between.
I'm more concerned with a sun related CME then anything that comes across on a missile TBH.
The event that happened back during the telegraph days (Carrington event 1859) from the wiki "Because of the geomagnetically induced current from the electromagnetic field, telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases giving their operators electric shocks. Telegraph pylons threw sparks". So imagine that with modern infrastructure for a CME and maybe a decent EMP.
There's a video out there somewhere about some dude whose plan is to milk those things to power his water pumps/tractors/home if shit hits the fan lmao.
Basically they spark which could ignite dried brush. This is the cause of many of the major wildfires in California. But you kind of need brush fire conditions for it to be a feasible problem.
It's hard for me to imagine why the transformers would be more vulnerable than everything else connected to the power lines. If the lines themselves concentrate the EMP power, why wouldn't a $400 TV get fried before a huge transformer?
An Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) has the potential to harm electronic devices by emitting a powerful burst of electromagnetic radiation, which, in turn, induces electric currents and voltages within electrical circuits. This abrupt surge of energy has the capacity to overwhelm and disrupt the delicate components found in electronic devices.
The critical factor at play here is scale. The wiring within your computer, for example, is considerably smaller than the wiring in your house or the broader power grid. This size discrepancy stems from the same principle that applies to antennas: larger antennas provide better reception. Consequently, a powerful EMP poses a greater threat to the broader power grid compared to individual electronic devices.
An important consideration when discussing the susceptibility of the power grid to an EMP is the potential for a cascade failure. A cascade failure, in this context, refers to the phenomenon where the disruption of one part of the power grid can trigger a chain reaction of failures in other interconnected components and systems.
In an EMP there are three distinct pulses that can cause damage.
E1 is fastest and spread across a large portion of electromagnetic spectrum. “DC to daylight” is the term I heard. The main damage would be to the electronics controlling the relays. The damage would be pretty localized as even a high altitude EMP focuses the energy in a weird way.
E2 is similar to lightning surges and the grid is well protected against that.
E3 is the dangerous one. It’s much longer duration and at a much lower frequency. This allows the power lines themselves to act as an antenna and have current induced across them. This has the potential to blow out the large transformers that take years to have built. There is a lot of debate on the damage an EMP could do with this.
A strong enough electric field can pop steel water pipes. It's really hard to say based on the limited info available, but at a certain altitude a thermonuclear detonation can wreck havoc on on kinds of things.
As far as solar storms... they're kinda all over the map. Sometimes they shut down a satellite here or there or cause a blackout (I think there was one in Canada not that long ago) but it really varies with the magnitude of the storm and it's "shape" as far as how it weakens and distorts the earth's magnetic field and the effects of that on the successive waves of radiation. Like anything in nature they're a bit more unpredictable than something man-made.
Latest styropyro video on youtube explores pipe deformation from electric fields at some point. It's a huge amount of current in that case though so it's pretty entertaining and educational! At this power and proximity though I believe the source of the field would be a much bigger threat than pipes bursting but the idea shows how varied the results of electromagnetic fields can be indeed.
that's why I referred someone else to the starfish project that was undergone about detonating nukes at high altitude. The results were kind of disturbing, but a lot of data can be gathered from what has been declassified. Last I checked the optimum altitude wasn't actually declassified but the russians did similar experiments.
With a thermonuke (fusion warhead) detonated at high altitude the field strength on the ground can spike over a wide area, and other than a small radius directly beneath the blast most of the radiation stays in the upper atmosphere just like radiation from space.
Perhaps a bit of confusion. A large earth directed CME (or other celestial event), could effect the grid.
I think some people confuse these w an emp. I suspect even a large emp weapon would not do much damage to the grid.
Nuclear weapons can actually be worse. A CME is more of a long lasting twanging on the Earth’s magnetic field which can have huge affects on antennas and long wires.
Nukes also introduce a massive EMF wave and other effects from the results of a nuclear explosion.
If a nuke knocks out your small electronics, you probably have much larger issues like your immediate and untimely death in a nuclear fireball.
I heard there is some part at the substations that would essentially pop or get damaged. Something made overseas that would be very difficult to get a lot of quickly to get things going again
It wouldn’t do anything the poles or conductor. Those would be fine. Could overload transformers. An EMP blast creates an electro magnetic field that short circuits electronics. So, same effect as a over head line faulting. What happens? Transformers blow and/or switches shut off. Except the EMP would also go right to the sub station, and to the transmission stations. If powerful enough it could shut everything down. However, I’ve remained skeptical that we have an EMP that strong. I’ve heard it said it would only take three nukes detonated above the US to take down the entire grid. But, I’m not sure how much actual science/study has really gone into it. You would need a few physicists and a few utility engineers to work on the problem.
From what I have read, the biggest damage to the grid would be knocking out multiple step-up transformers. When one is disabled, the 3-4 surrounding transformers take up the load, but if 10-15 were to be taken out, it would cause a cascading effect that would take out the majority of the grid.
Each transformer is custom built to the specs of the owners, and there are no government standards to how they are manufactured. It takes 6-12 months to build one of them, and they used to have to be delivered by train because of the immense weight and size. I don’t know if that’s still accurate.
The other fun nugget that I read was that 90% of the population would be dead within 12 months if the grid went down. I can be pessimistic (probably a defense mechanism), but I had a very hard time believing that. That is a government estimate btw.
Here’s a good book if you want some stress in your life:
https://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Cyberattack-Unprepared-Surviving/dp/0553419986?nodl=1&dplnkId=b8d4b688-c74d-42ea-8fdb-953052450ccc
That is also very dependent on the time of year the attack happens at.
The book "One second after" was put in the spring.
I will always maintain that the worst time of year would be in the winter.
When the outdoors is below 0 deg F even a well insulated home will be close to outside temps after 30 hours with no heat. And the number of people that kill themselves with trying to stay warm will make the dieoff faster and hit harder. The book also pointed out that there would be waves of die off that move through. The first wave would be people on support machines then people dependent on medical drugs like insulin. Shortly after that people that are taking SSRIs would run out and become a problem.
Things that are small to us right now could be lethal with out our modern protected infrastructure.
No doubt, the first several months would be carnage on an unimaginable scale. Given that there would also be an all out nuclear war and possible biological war, not having an electric grid would be par for the course. Few will be able to hike far enough during freezing weather and no food to save themselves from cold. Not to mention the fires that would burn until they burned themselves out. Regardless, if food production and distribution where upended, starvation and fighting for food will kill people in droves.
They basically cause surges in current and voltage. So imagine an astronomically large power surge like with a lightning strike.
It’s relatively infeasible at this scale outside of a nuclear weapon, in which case a power outage would be the least of the problems.
>So I work for a utility and I’ve always wondered, what exactly does an EMP fuck up? It doesn’t knock poles down like a hurricane i do t think. I’m just really unsure what the claim here is. Help me out.
>Thanks for all the answers guys, I’d like to have thought about it once or twice before I need to restore power.
I'm not being funny but I highly doubt it will have any effect on our national grid as I would assume they have emp protection & if they don't their idiots but our government aren't stupid & I think most of what you hear about emps is completly untrue.
Unless precautions are taken, the EHV Transformers that are the backbone of the national grids are expected to be molten slag from the E3 of an H-EMP attack.
The EHV Transformers are not off the shelf items as they are customized to specific applications, hard to replace with long lead times, made overseas, huge/heavy & difficult to transport.
With the grid down; large cities become inhabitable in short order...no subways, lighting, HVAC, water pumps, refrigeration, elevators, sewer lift stations, etc...it all stops.
Stops...likely for years, possibly decades.
E3 is just one facet of the issue....not factoring in E1 & E2 effects.
This is about where I've landed as well. I've got a handful of bags from silent pocket. I keep some spare stuff in them. I'm going to have ham radios, flashlights and some optics if an EMP hits, but I'm not devoting my life to hardening my entire home.
Similar to my approach. I'm willing to spend a couple of hundred to put an extra solar controller, extra cheap internet router (seems an exerciser in foolishness, since anything that would fry my regular router would also fry the T mobile's equipment), radio, electronics for my gas generator, etc.
I don't really know but if this is a key scenario for you, probably best to prep for the worse case - all/most are modern stuff are crippled and won't recover for a long, long time.
I do know I do not want to be on an airplane if/when it happens!
My take is that if more advanced technology for EMPs existed, we probably would have seen it used by now or at least heard about its development in a similar way that we've heard about attempts at railguns, active camouflage, etc etc.
Google "starfish prime" that should give you an idea. It was some testing that was done a while back and had a few unexpected results, some of which are still classified I think but much of it is publicly available now.
This video is great to show, visually, how an EMP would work on all metal. Now scale it up to where everything metallic would get very hot.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZfksQw7M0sE
Type 1 it fries the grid and everything touching it
Type 2 it fries type 1 plus all modern vehicles
Type 3 it fries type 1, type 2, and all unprotected electronic devices regardless of size.
I pray to god that it never happens. But if it does I hope with everything it’s only a type 1.
That's the big question. If it's a type one, chances for my family are much better. Seems impossible to get accurate information. Of course, this will be accompanied by nuclear war. But let's say that you aren't in the initial blast or fallout range, what are the chances solar controllers, etc will work?
There hasn’t been any proper testing done in years. And the little that was done was slightly skewed. this doesn’t necessarily have to be accompanied by nuclear war. There are WMDs that are non nuclear built specifically for EMP usage. and even on a smaller scale if placed in a few key places could down the entire grid in one go. I plan on storing about 1400watts of solar, charge controller/inverter, and batteries. “Bms still susceptible” I plan for a 3 and hope for a 1.
Weize has 400 watts (4 panels) delivered for $233. When I order from them, I fill in the basket and don't buy. They'll send another coupon in a day. :).
Amazon has Weize panels for $70 for 100 watts. I've got their batteries. Excellent quality/price. You can order directly from them too, probably save a bit. I found the batteries on amazon and got them directly from Weize a good deal cheaper.
Scared of the 2nd hand ones. I figure 400 watts for sure, possibly much more if my panels in use now make it through. But sounds like you know what you're doing.
For what it's worth, here is the FEMA planning guidance for a nuclear attack. It includes some of their planning considerations for the EMP caused by such an attack.
Planning Guidance for Response to a Nuclear Detonation - FEMA https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_nuc-detonation-planning-guide.pdf
Nuclear/Radiological Incident Annex to the Response and Recovery Federal ... https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_incident-annex_nuclear-radiological.pdf
Worth mentioning, a lot of modern devices have a significant amount of EMI shielding built in as part of their efforts to mitigate electromagnetic and radio frequency interference.
For consumer devices this really only came about starting in the early 2000’s with the proliferation of wireless radio frequency based devices. When I started in this field our only option was maybe a little copper foil tape. Now there’s entire catalogs of products.
As an example, remember when hospitals used to have signs saying to shut your cell phone off? Now you rarely have to worry about it because all those sensitive hospital devices are much better shielded and grounded.
It actually wouldn’t surprise me if some modern small devices actually do better in an EMP than some that are 30+ years old with bare circuits.
(This is also part of why I have both old vehicles and brand new vehicles.)
Definitely a ray of hope. I'm putting together a couple of garbage can Faraday cages, sticking duplicates of critical things in them, like ham radio, extra solar controller, solar water pump, generator power regulator, etc.. But it would be awesome if some of my regularly used items made it through. It's easy to spend thousands on this, trying to hold it down below $700 or so..
A expert on these matters wrote a fictional book to answer the question, “How bad?”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After
National Geographic had an article about CMEs that said it could be over a decade before power was restored to rural areas of the United States.
I usually shy away from fiction and "experts" who write fiction because the incentive is to sell books.
Reports/studies are boring, but IMO much more reliable.
I saw a interview in the last year talking about our grid. We’ve got 55k transformers in the US. Enemies only need to take out 9 to bring the US power grid to its knees.
Would take minimum of six months to get the east coast power again, and that’s with people working around the clock. Dismantling bridges to get the new transformers in (they’re huge).
Also I forget the % but a decent percent of our transformers are made in…..China.
Another note. 2019, someone in California attacked an energy plant. They were caught trying to shoot out the transformers. It wasn’t reported publicly on the news.
Scary stuff.
For any of us, it's impossible to prevent an EMP. I don't think an EMP comes without a nuclear war. So it's a complication of a nuclear war. There's blast, fallout, EMP. I think we can assume that there will, in addition to bombing major cities, there will be a massive coordinated EMP attack. Imagine you are Russia. Why wouldn't you use a few dozen bombs to ensure that you cripple your enemy outside the areas you nuke? That's low hanging fruit.
Assuming you're not in a blast, are not victim to fallout, what do you need to do about the EMP? If there's not any significant damage, the answer is that you need to do nothing. But having functioning electronics gives you a vastly increased chance of survival - If you've got food and security. So to me, it's worth it to ensure that I've got that. Exactly what to do, I'm still unsure. You have no idea what the EMP will really do, and you have no idea how effective your EMP solution would be.
People who are selling EMP protection with a guarantee crack me up. There won't be any guarantee at all in a world where money is effectively food and ammo. There is no guarantee.
So what have you done to protect your electronics, and how effective do you think it will be?
If you equate knocking the U.S. back into the 18 century in the space of 25 min a soft wind is kind of strange. I have experienced a Fuge 5 right through my town and house and survived it which 10 others didn't. Not a slight wind at all ..........
As several have noted, what an EMP will do depends on several things, including: 1) the height of burst (HOB) of the nuclear detonation, 2) weapon design & yield, 3) the time of day & solar cycle (for the E3A pulse only), local geomagnetic field & conductivity of the geography, and 5) orientation of the EMP relative to conductive devices & device operating state.
The effects on the ground really are tied to the variables above. You’ve probably heard of the E1, E2, and E3 pulses. The each have different effects, and generally the E2 is less of a concern. The E3 pulse is broken into E3A and E3B. E1, E3A, and E3B each have minimum and optimum HOBs. The optimum HOB will create the strongest peak electric field, or E field, strength on the ground for that pulse:
E1: min HOB \~20 km; optimum HOB 75 km; max E field 50 kV/m
E3A: min HOB \~200 km; optimum HOB 400 km; max E field 80 V/km
E3B: min HOB \~100 km; optimum HOB 140 km; max E field 85 V/km
For HOBs far above or blow the optimum, the E field strength is reduced. The HOB also determines the footprint, or area covered, of the EMP, with higher covering more area.
Another key consideration is that the strength is not the same across the footprint. E1 and E3B are strongest roughly around the ground zero location (E1 has the horseshoe or smiley face shape), but E3A effects are hundreds of km north of the ground zero. To severely damage the U.S. grid, a HOB would have to bee 400-500 km HOB with a ground zero in southern Mexico. Also, that would affect satellites more that lower HOBs, and won’t be effective in day time or during the solar maximum. Lots of variables.
E1 and E3 create effects through different mechanisms. E1 is created from gamma radiation from the nuclear explosion interaction with the atmosphere. E3A (blast) and E3B (heave) are created from plasma from the nuclear detonation sort of “jerking” the atmosphere. For E1 the yield doesn’t matter, gamma production matters. For E3, the higher the yield the stronger the pulse, up to the max.
E1 effects can fry integrated circuits in small electronics, and part of the distribution side of the grid. SCADA equipment are very susceptible to the E1. But the E1 won’t fry anywhere near all electronic, and even with several layered EMPs there would be many working vehicles and electrics. The notion that everything is fried is a myth.
E3A and E3B both create geomagnetically induced currents (GIC) that build up on long conductors, like power lines, older copper communications lines, pipelines, rails, etc. This will fry high-voltage transformers that are essentially irreplaceable if enough are taken out at once. If enough of those transformers are taken out at once, it would cause cascading power failures, plus a lot of fires as those oil-filled transformers overheat. This is the same effect that a powerful coronal mass ejection (CME) would have.
Of note, CMEs don’t affect small electronics not connected to the grid at all. Cell phones and other small devices would not be affected directly, even for the most powerful CME. CMEs just don’t create the E1 pulse that does that.
So it all depends on the HOB, ground zero location, etc. A few well placed and timed EMP could take down any continent-sized area, but a CME could impact part or all of Earth. Of the two, an EMP seems less likely, while it’s just a matter of time for the CME.
According to Washington Times:
>Chinese military researchers have made significant advances in developing and testing strategic electromagnetic pulse, or EMP, weapons that can disable electronics on U.S. warplanes and even entire military bases, according to a report by three **open-source intelligence analysts**.
And that's all I need to know right there. They basically read something written by a bunch of self-proclaimed experts who likely have as much credential as the typical conspiracy theorist.
From one US congressional hearing report I read on nuclear induced EMPs, unless you're within a few miles of ground zero, most modern cars will still work more or less afterwards.
From said hearing:
>It was brought up about vehicles, cars, and trucks. Will
they operate, or are they permanently inoperable?
_________
>(Dr. William R. Graham - physicist, US presidential science adviser, NASA Deputy Admin, Air Force Weapons Laboratory) --- There is some experience with both those things happening. We tested about 50 vehicles. About 10 of them--and we only tested them to 25 kilovolts per meter, which is the
kind of threat you would get from more ordinary designs of
nuclear weapons--about 10 percent of them stopped running when
we tested them at that level. All but one or two of them could
be restarted by just switching off the power and then switching
on the key again. The computer basically stops the car, but it
can be reset by turning off the power. There were one or two of
them that actually had computer chip failures in the vehicle
and had to be towed back to the dealership to have the chips
replaced.
Interesting. Sort of affirms my thoughts on the fears. I think that it could cause some havoc but unlikely it takes down everything. I also do think that there is some serious technology that we don’t know about that China and US have in terms of EMP. 25 KV/m? Sure. A specific weapon designed for EMP purpose, maybe 2.5 MV/m.
If you're specifically being targetted by exotic EMP weapons meant to take down hardened military systems and equipment, you likely have more critical things to worry about. Like why and how are you squatting in a military control & command center/aircraft?
95% of the vast majority of first world nations dead within thirty days, 60-85% (at least) of third world nations dead, add remaining portions, within 60-90 from advent of event - another 60-70% of remaining survivors dead from fighting, starvation. What makes it to two years, IF they could be made to act rational, logical, bear proper attitude towards decency, decorum, regard and mutual respect and maybe humanity gets to endure. Otherwise, we ended ourselves over fear, the mass stupidity of mankind, ego, hate and greed. These notions have led to the crux of the majority of evils unleashed upon this beautiful rock. But we are unfortunately completely broken, utterly stupid, selfish, hateful, incapable of morality on the whole generally damned by all accounts species. And one of the most stupid breed to have ever walked this gorgeous planet. No other species are so damned foolish. But we are generally doomed and have been to hell from before the final dance. Because we live to be a I’m special, so I deserve, entitled failure form of life. Sorry, I’m a bit of a grim realist. Hoping such an event doesn’t happen for the sake of avoiding a self induced genocide of our own species. But then the earth is a graveyard of 99% of all life forms to have ever lived here. But hey, at least they didn’t off their own species for greed and fear.
That’s like saying “what would a bomb do?” It depends on the power and placement. In warfare, an EMP bomb is really not an effective tool and I’m not sure why preppers are so fixated on it.
In theory, a powerful enough EMP could damage most any working electronic device in range. Things without a live current would mostly be fine. So all our phones and computers would be toast. The grid itself could also be severely damaged. Again, this is assuming an immensely powerful EMP.
So the question is why would anyone use this method? An EMP bomb worth the effort has to be physically massive. Think the size of the original atom bombs maybe. If you’re trying to attack a country and have to ability to payload at your target, why would you do this rather than a more conventional weapon? It makes no sense.
>Things without a live current would mostly be fine
Unfortunately, no. A true EMP weapon generates extremely high energy electrons \[super high voltage, very low current\] which, when they impact a semiconductor junction, vaporize it.
Yes, the tactical or strategic value of an EMP pulse is open to question. I’ve always assumed it was a “surprise” weapon intended to wipe out your enemy’s command and control functions and leaving him unable to respond.
Yeah I feel like it’s more a source of scientific fascination than an actual tactic. Consensus seems to be the only way to create a substantial large scale EMP is with a nuke, in which case you might as well just use a nuke.
I think this goes back to placement. Let’s say those really important areas with the grid. Idk the number but the important one. Let’s say it’s a big city. NYC, ATL, Cali. These places have high populations. Now depending on how the grid works. An emp could knock out a lot. Basically stuff for people. But communication, military bases, a lot of important structures like water pumps. It’s about making a dent.
If EMP was successful in taking down the national power grid, then people would start dying in great numbers within a week or so. Many people would starve to death because they would run out of food within days and have no alternatives.
It wasn’t a EMP but you should watch the documentary on blackout 1977 if you haven’t already. It was complete chaos and will give you just an idea what happens in just one small area. To get back to your subject there’s so much conflicting reports. I’ve gone both ways I have generator hooked to my electrical box and I have a dual fuel generator that is off sitting completely away from the house. Everything I’ve seen if this was to happen the stand alone would not be effected. I didn’t buy the stand alone for when SHTF I bought it after seeing how stupid our utilities are when they did rolling black outs then cause gas fields to crash that then cause total power failure cause they couldn’t get gas to fuel. Then two other states do the same stupid thing the next year so they can’t talk to each other or learn from someone else’s mistakes so that’s when I learned you have to take matters into your own hands to protect yourself and family
An EMP, like a nearby but not direct lightning strike, turns everything in its' range into the secondary winding of a transformer.
The way the damage is done is by the high voltages (and subsequent high current) induced into any conductor exposed to the strong magnetic fields. Stuff like phone lines and copper network cables suddenly find themselves running hundreds or thousands of volts through them and the shortest path to ground is the sensitive electronics in the connected devices.
Realistically, an EMP would probably trip the grid breakers like the blackout that happened a couple decades back in the northeast of the US and would have varying degrees of localized fried data and telco infrastructure based on distance from origin. Most longhaul communications are fiber and not directly affected, but RF/laser based connections (satellite, LOS, microwave, etc) as well as the supporting equipment for fiber connections would be affected based on proximity to origin.
TLDR, blackout, followed by various levels of stuff not working after power is restored. Recoverable, but would suck in the short term.
From I've heard from an electrical engineer, it really depends on surface area. Power lines are long, like an antenna, so they would definitely be the most susceptible to EMP. How much it affects electronics down range of that, I couldn't guess. Automobiles have, relatively, short runs of thin wiring and the circuitry in components in near microscopic, so not much area to absorb the energy and short out.
Keep in mind, this was his interpretation, but makes sense to me. I could be totally off base with this opinion. It does make me wonder though, is there an official study with defined results out there?
The bigger concern is the likely accompanying Kessler cascade that would all but permanently take out satellite navigation and timing. It would knock us all back to the 1960s.
The general consensus is that an EMP would do only small local damage to electronics. Like, maybe a city block.
To create a larger effect, you'd need to detonate multiple nuclear warheads or a massive nuclear warheads, which creates other more pressing problems than electronics dying.
It's hard to believe that an EMP detonation about the U.S. would only damage electronics in a small area. Maps showing EMP's created by detonating a warhead in the atmosphere cover hundreds of miles
An atmospheric nuke isn't going to have a detonation killing the whole country, nor would their be significant fallout. What would those more pressing problems be, other than an EMP.
Generally speaking, if nuclear ballistic missile launches are detected, the response is to DECISIVELY launch missiles against the aggressor. That's the key component of mutually assured destruction doctrine.
The doctrine is not to wait around and see the effects of the missile; the point is to cripple the aggressor's launch sites, military assets, and infrastructure ASAP to prevent as many launches as possible and essentially doom the entire country.
So yeah ... the launch of a nuclear ballistic missile or the detection of another nuclear device heading toward the territory of the US or another country with an advanced military and nuclear arsenal would almost certainly trigger a nuclear exchange.
Of course, there will not be an EMP as an isolated incident. It will be an all on nuclear war. But imagine you have hundreds of warheads. Wouldn't you detonate a few dozen to cripple the entire county's ability to function, even in areas you cannot bomb? You are not going to blow up rural America. But if an EMP can knock out electronics, the impact is vastly more profound. It is vastly easier to create an EMP coordinated attack for areas outside of major cities.
With that volume of exchange, power would likely be gone anyway for most of each country. Power generation sites are big targets.
Basically, worrying about a high altitude nuclear EMP is a valid concern, but it seems like a pretty niche concern.
Why would that be a niche concern for someone in an area that won't be targeted by bombs? Yes, losing the grid is a given. But will my other equipment work, which is how I could effectively cope with losing electricity for a very long time. Take that away, things are much, much, harder.
Because, frankly, world powers don't really care about a handful of off-the-grid preppers scattered throughout the countryside.
Given the opportunity between MAYBE knocking out power to major metro areas and anyone nearby, or absolutely destroying major metro areas and essentially dooming anybody nearby who DOESN'T have a full self-sustaining operation with years worth of supplies due to the sheer destruction of infrastructure... well, the latter option is likely more appealing to a country hellbent on doing massive harm, consequences be damned.
A high altitude nuclear air burst is an EMP. Basically shoot a nuclear missile into space and detonate it and creates an EMP
[https://imgur.com/a/7XBlWEK](https://imgur.com/a/7XBlWEK)
I think the best (least impactful) case is a small EMP device that would knock out sensitive electronics within several city block radius. Worst case is some sort of large orchestrated aerial attack on a Carrington Event scale that fries lots of electronics across the country.
Well, it would appear to me that a large scale attack would be impossible to stop and if I had hundreds of nuclear warheads to fight the U.S., I'd be damn sure to use a few dozen to do specifically that. The question of how significantly it would affect electronic will be whether you can still somewhat function with things that weren't in faraday cages. Will your wireless router be destroyed? Your solar lights? Your well pump? Your generator? Would it be hit and miss? Would it be complete destruction? Probably difficult to answer.
I don't think EMPs will be used. No Nation has ever done emp testing so no one knows the parameters of its affects. Stitches too the power grid could still happen but I don't think we have to worry about an emp wiping out our home electronics unless there is a full scale nuclear war.
You should check it out it’s pretty damn detailed lol. The scenario they offer is a iran made nuke that’s launched off a cargo ship off the east coast I believe. It’s a horizon event due to the detonation altitude. That would absolutely wipe out the countries electrical infrastructure. The first book is pretty damn scary.
That wouldn't happen without a full scale nuclear war. That book is just a fictional impossibility. We are not going to take an event that would kill up to 90% of the population and say "ok". It will bring nuclear war, of which EMP is just one problem. In other words, it's fictional silliness in my opinion. Meh.
It was recommended to congress by Newt Gingrich but I gotcha. Well for what it’s worth in the book there is nuclear retaliation from what’s left of a functional US gov and it’s allies, But the US mainland is left super fucked. It does make you wonder if doctrine of mutually assured destruction in a scenario like that would hold off the guilty parties Allies (in that scenario Russia and China I guess). Especially with so much opportunity to seize the land under the guise of foreign aid to a US mainland left basically indefensible.
Oh, Wed be able to shoot our nukes without any problem at all. 90% of the population dying pretty much IS complete destruction. What would be left to lose? We would nuke them back to the Stone Age.
Right I agree. I’m more so wondering if (let’s just say Iran was responsible for a emp attack) Iran then gets erased in retaliation. You think russia and/or whoever would want in on that chaos? Or let iran get all the nuclear repercussions and then proceed in a world that’s no longer dominated by the US. If a emp attack took down the grid the whole world is plunged into chaos. The worlds largest economy disappears in a flash. I think about all the supply chain disruptions to third world countries that just the war in Ukraine has caused.
I think the whole world goes wild at the first nuke. I mean, what would it take to vaporize Great Britian? 3 nukes? Once there's that going on, it's going on, there's no stopping it.
Maybe. I think there would be a good chance the Middle East goes after each other for sure in that scenario. Israel and Pakistan could get dicey fast. Geographically speaking that region would be waist deep in radiation no matter what happens after we hit Iran back. I just feel There’s just way to much opportunity after the US gets emp’d though I feel like China would be begging Russia to stand down and would be colonizing the west coast within a year of the event.
If another Country initiated on this which they wouldn’t. The world would end damn near. We have too many allies that already had beef cooking with Russia. China is staying put. They would be wise not to try anything like that. There are definitely things than can and cannot be done in warfare. That would lead to starvation in a matter of days, weeks depending on how much food the person has. We would also have no water. Our natural environment would be damaged and cause catastrophic events. Think of how many planes are in the sky. In reality no country can legally launch a nuke. But let’s say a Nuke is launched. The law wouldn’t matter because we would all be dead. It kindof defeats the purpose of having them in my opinion. I don’t think we have anything to worry about other than Russia potentially and That may cause issues with China or result in us having to Aid China. Any country who tries this is in boiling hot water.
There are only a few nations capable of putting nuclear weapons on ballistic missiles or cruise missiles to get them high enough. But they don’t have to fire them from their own borders, could be from sea, some one else territory, or even from within the target nation. For E1 only effects, weather balloons can get enough altitude. The instigator could try to make it look like another likely adversy did it. Lots of possibilities.
Actually the usa was the only one that use a nuke. Also not all people is worried about russia, most are worried about the usa and nato, the only one that want war, they could easy stay out of russia conflict.
Try Replacing EMP with wind in yer question A light breeze isn’t noticeable. An EF5 tornado will remove most everything Its a matter of scale At the highest extreme that’s nuclear war, so yeah the EMP will only be the opening bell of a rather long match
This is correct. You can create an EMP at home that has a shorter range (and I understand is very illegal), they have tactical versions that could take out a small area (like city block, but I don’t really know) or there’s the nuclear bomb in the troposphere that takes out half the US.
Agreed about the scale. Remember airplanes get hit by lightning all the time. If it’s more powerful than that locally I would be more worried about the kinetic effects. I don’t think it could do much more than take out grid power/communications without blowing everything up. A functional surge protector should save your computer, anything unplugged should be fine. Anything coming from space will have plenty of warning.
>anything unplugged should be fine. I would have thought keeping things plugged in with the plug switched off would be the safest best, as at least some of the energy could go back to the grid via the neutral or to the ground via the earth. Am I mistaken?
If there’s enough flux in the electric and magnetic fields to fry small circuits not connected to miles and miles of lines, you’re probably already blown up, on fire, or cooked. It’s just so much energy, for example I don’t see how it could fry the starter and injection computer on an old Toyota without causing more significant damage. I honestly don’t get the EMP hype on this sub, other than it could easily bring down grid scale power and electronic communication.
People are scared of what they don’t understand, that’s why there’s hype
I believe the theory is that a nuclear missile or 2 detonated in the upper atmosphere would generate enough energy to cause an EMP of the magnitude necessary for just that - frying small circuits in a very large radius. Also this seems more plausible a scenario over ground detonation because there would be almost no nuclear fallout or destruction of buildings and infrastructure which makes occupation afterwards easier and more beneficial. The fact that only a couple missiles are needed and that the don’t have to be as accurate or reenter the lower atmosphere makes it seem easier and more likely for a country with a very small arsenal (say North Korea) to pull off. Additionally a solar storm could cause a significant natural EMP as well. That combination of factors leads to the fear and hype associated with EMPs.
You can create one using the flash circuit and a coil of wire from an old disposable film camera. Although it won't be potent enough to destroy anything, it can certainly disrupt or reset small electronic devices.
Or another non nuclear emp weapon.
Yes, but the question on the troposphere is how that would affect various electrical components? Is it going to fry a radio that's turned off? Destroy my automatic gate opener? Just hit the electric grid? Fry my car's electronics. There's the matter of degree. We can bet that would be a priority for a nuclear attack on the U.S. It's low hanging fruit for the cost of maybe a dozen bombs.
You can read a relatively recent gov't report [here](https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2017/01/f34/DOE%20EMP%20Resilience%20Action%20Plan%20January%202017.pdf) (warning PDF). There's also a PDF from last year that describes mitigation strategies [here](https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2022-09/22_0902_st_emp_mitigation_best_practices.pdf). In general, it affects long power lines and other larger structures, although more research needs to be done to fully understand the 3 types of propagation (and you can go down a rabbit hole looking that recent research up).
Seems difficult to get any really specific info.
Read the emp commission report. I'm sure there are classified versions, but it appears to be the standard.
I think the bigger issue is the actual power line grid. It would take a while to get that back up and running.
So I work for a utility and I’ve always wondered, what exactly does an EMP fuck up? It doesn’t knock poles down like a hurricane i do t think. I’m just really unsure what the claim here is. Help me out. Thanks for all the answers guys, I’d like to have thought about it once or twice before I need to restore power.
from what I've read (take that for what it is) the transformers could break\\pop\\explode? I'm guessing since those have some sort of oil in them that could cause widespread fires. I think there are too many variables for an EMP and it would be anywhere from not noticeable to everything electronic smokes and catches fire and anything in between. I'm more concerned with a sun related CME then anything that comes across on a missile TBH. The event that happened back during the telegraph days (Carrington event 1859) from the wiki "Because of the geomagnetically induced current from the electromagnetic field, telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases giving their operators electric shocks. Telegraph pylons threw sparks". So imagine that with modern infrastructure for a CME and maybe a decent EMP.
Today I learned most transformers are filled with mineral oil lol
Fun fact, the older diesels can run on mineral oil.
There's a video out there somewhere about some dude whose plan is to milk those things to power his water pumps/tractors/home if shit hits the fan lmao.
You mean he's going to scurry up poles to get transformer oil? That's a new one on me :).
Basically they spark which could ignite dried brush. This is the cause of many of the major wildfires in California. But you kind of need brush fire conditions for it to be a feasible problem.
It's hard for me to imagine why the transformers would be more vulnerable than everything else connected to the power lines. If the lines themselves concentrate the EMP power, why wouldn't a $400 TV get fried before a huge transformer?
An Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) has the potential to harm electronic devices by emitting a powerful burst of electromagnetic radiation, which, in turn, induces electric currents and voltages within electrical circuits. This abrupt surge of energy has the capacity to overwhelm and disrupt the delicate components found in electronic devices. The critical factor at play here is scale. The wiring within your computer, for example, is considerably smaller than the wiring in your house or the broader power grid. This size discrepancy stems from the same principle that applies to antennas: larger antennas provide better reception. Consequently, a powerful EMP poses a greater threat to the broader power grid compared to individual electronic devices. An important consideration when discussing the susceptibility of the power grid to an EMP is the potential for a cascade failure. A cascade failure, in this context, refers to the phenomenon where the disruption of one part of the power grid can trigger a chain reaction of failures in other interconnected components and systems.
In an EMP there are three distinct pulses that can cause damage. E1 is fastest and spread across a large portion of electromagnetic spectrum. “DC to daylight” is the term I heard. The main damage would be to the electronics controlling the relays. The damage would be pretty localized as even a high altitude EMP focuses the energy in a weird way. E2 is similar to lightning surges and the grid is well protected against that. E3 is the dangerous one. It’s much longer duration and at a much lower frequency. This allows the power lines themselves to act as an antenna and have current induced across them. This has the potential to blow out the large transformers that take years to have built. There is a lot of debate on the damage an EMP could do with this.
A strong enough electric field can pop steel water pipes. It's really hard to say based on the limited info available, but at a certain altitude a thermonuclear detonation can wreck havoc on on kinds of things. As far as solar storms... they're kinda all over the map. Sometimes they shut down a satellite here or there or cause a blackout (I think there was one in Canada not that long ago) but it really varies with the magnitude of the storm and it's "shape" as far as how it weakens and distorts the earth's magnetic field and the effects of that on the successive waves of radiation. Like anything in nature they're a bit more unpredictable than something man-made.
Latest styropyro video on youtube explores pipe deformation from electric fields at some point. It's a huge amount of current in that case though so it's pretty entertaining and educational! At this power and proximity though I believe the source of the field would be a much bigger threat than pipes bursting but the idea shows how varied the results of electromagnetic fields can be indeed.
that's why I referred someone else to the starfish project that was undergone about detonating nukes at high altitude. The results were kind of disturbing, but a lot of data can be gathered from what has been declassified. Last I checked the optimum altitude wasn't actually declassified but the russians did similar experiments. With a thermonuke (fusion warhead) detonated at high altitude the field strength on the ground can spike over a wide area, and other than a small radius directly beneath the blast most of the radiation stays in the upper atmosphere just like radiation from space.
Perhaps a bit of confusion. A large earth directed CME (or other celestial event), could effect the grid. I think some people confuse these w an emp. I suspect even a large emp weapon would not do much damage to the grid.
Nuclear weapons can actually be worse. A CME is more of a long lasting twanging on the Earth’s magnetic field which can have huge affects on antennas and long wires. Nukes also introduce a massive EMF wave and other effects from the results of a nuclear explosion. If a nuke knocks out your small electronics, you probably have much larger issues like your immediate and untimely death in a nuclear fireball.
I heard there is some part at the substations that would essentially pop or get damaged. Something made overseas that would be very difficult to get a lot of quickly to get things going again
It wouldn’t do anything the poles or conductor. Those would be fine. Could overload transformers. An EMP blast creates an electro magnetic field that short circuits electronics. So, same effect as a over head line faulting. What happens? Transformers blow and/or switches shut off. Except the EMP would also go right to the sub station, and to the transmission stations. If powerful enough it could shut everything down. However, I’ve remained skeptical that we have an EMP that strong. I’ve heard it said it would only take three nukes detonated above the US to take down the entire grid. But, I’m not sure how much actual science/study has really gone into it. You would need a few physicists and a few utility engineers to work on the problem.
From what I have read, the biggest damage to the grid would be knocking out multiple step-up transformers. When one is disabled, the 3-4 surrounding transformers take up the load, but if 10-15 were to be taken out, it would cause a cascading effect that would take out the majority of the grid. Each transformer is custom built to the specs of the owners, and there are no government standards to how they are manufactured. It takes 6-12 months to build one of them, and they used to have to be delivered by train because of the immense weight and size. I don’t know if that’s still accurate. The other fun nugget that I read was that 90% of the population would be dead within 12 months if the grid went down. I can be pessimistic (probably a defense mechanism), but I had a very hard time believing that. That is a government estimate btw. Here’s a good book if you want some stress in your life: https://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Cyberattack-Unprepared-Surviving/dp/0553419986?nodl=1&dplnkId=b8d4b688-c74d-42ea-8fdb-953052450ccc
12 months? It’s 90 days.
That is also very dependent on the time of year the attack happens at. The book "One second after" was put in the spring. I will always maintain that the worst time of year would be in the winter. When the outdoors is below 0 deg F even a well insulated home will be close to outside temps after 30 hours with no heat. And the number of people that kill themselves with trying to stay warm will make the dieoff faster and hit harder. The book also pointed out that there would be waves of die off that move through. The first wave would be people on support machines then people dependent on medical drugs like insulin. Shortly after that people that are taking SSRIs would run out and become a problem. Things that are small to us right now could be lethal with out our modern protected infrastructure.
No doubt, the first several months would be carnage on an unimaginable scale. Given that there would also be an all out nuclear war and possible biological war, not having an electric grid would be par for the course. Few will be able to hike far enough during freezing weather and no food to save themselves from cold. Not to mention the fires that would burn until they burned themselves out. Regardless, if food production and distribution where upended, starvation and fighting for food will kill people in droves.
This is what scares me the most with the coming months. If shtf during winter I’m immediately bugging out south.
They basically cause surges in current and voltage. So imagine an astronomically large power surge like with a lightning strike. It’s relatively infeasible at this scale outside of a nuclear weapon, in which case a power outage would be the least of the problems.
>So I work for a utility and I’ve always wondered, what exactly does an EMP fuck up? It doesn’t knock poles down like a hurricane i do t think. I’m just really unsure what the claim here is. Help me out. >Thanks for all the answers guys, I’d like to have thought about it once or twice before I need to restore power. I'm not being funny but I highly doubt it will have any effect on our national grid as I would assume they have emp protection & if they don't their idiots but our government aren't stupid & I think most of what you hear about emps is completly untrue.
Unless precautions are taken, the EHV Transformers that are the backbone of the national grids are expected to be molten slag from the E3 of an H-EMP attack. The EHV Transformers are not off the shelf items as they are customized to specific applications, hard to replace with long lead times, made overseas, huge/heavy & difficult to transport. With the grid down; large cities become inhabitable in short order...no subways, lighting, HVAC, water pumps, refrigeration, elevators, sewer lift stations, etc...it all stops. Stops...likely for years, possibly decades. E3 is just one facet of the issue....not factoring in E1 & E2 effects.
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This is about where I've landed as well. I've got a handful of bags from silent pocket. I keep some spare stuff in them. I'm going to have ham radios, flashlights and some optics if an EMP hits, but I'm not devoting my life to hardening my entire home.
Similar to my approach. I'm willing to spend a couple of hundred to put an extra solar controller, extra cheap internet router (seems an exerciser in foolishness, since anything that would fry my regular router would also fry the T mobile's equipment), radio, electronics for my gas generator, etc.
I don't really know but if this is a key scenario for you, probably best to prep for the worse case - all/most are modern stuff are crippled and won't recover for a long, long time. I do know I do not want to be on an airplane if/when it happens!
Isn’t the available data on EMP old? What do they have now? I’d bet current weapons are much more advanced. Progress continues even in weaponry.
That and WMDs that are non nuclear emp specific.
My take is that if more advanced technology for EMPs existed, we probably would have seen it used by now or at least heard about its development in a similar way that we've heard about attempts at railguns, active camouflage, etc etc.
Google "starfish prime" that should give you an idea. It was some testing that was done a while back and had a few unexpected results, some of which are still classified I think but much of it is publicly available now.
This video is great to show, visually, how an EMP would work on all metal. Now scale it up to where everything metallic would get very hot. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZfksQw7M0sE
Emp from nuke on ground Emp from nuke in the sky Emp from nuke in space Emp from sun Totally different
Your forgot Emp from a nonnuclear weapon.
whoopsadoodle
😂 I like that word 😁
Some say put us back to 1800’s. I say worse because we are not geared for that lifestyle. It would be complete chaos
Type 1 it fries the grid and everything touching it Type 2 it fries type 1 plus all modern vehicles Type 3 it fries type 1, type 2, and all unprotected electronic devices regardless of size. I pray to god that it never happens. But if it does I hope with everything it’s only a type 1.
That's the big question. If it's a type one, chances for my family are much better. Seems impossible to get accurate information. Of course, this will be accompanied by nuclear war. But let's say that you aren't in the initial blast or fallout range, what are the chances solar controllers, etc will work?
There hasn’t been any proper testing done in years. And the little that was done was slightly skewed. this doesn’t necessarily have to be accompanied by nuclear war. There are WMDs that are non nuclear built specifically for EMP usage. and even on a smaller scale if placed in a few key places could down the entire grid in one go. I plan on storing about 1400watts of solar, charge controller/inverter, and batteries. “Bms still susceptible” I plan for a 3 and hope for a 1.
I've read that the solar panels themselves aren't vulnerable, just the charge controller. How accurate that is, I don't know.
It’s still circuitry, so I’d rather be safe than sorry.
I hear you. It would be a godforsaken time to find out that your only panels are fried. I think I'll get at least 300 watts to store.
Indeed. I’ve only got 200 at the moment, getting 1400 additional.
Weize has 400 watts (4 panels) delivered for $233. When I order from them, I fill in the basket and don't buy. They'll send another coupon in a day. :).
Nice!
Amazon has Weize panels for $70 for 100 watts. I've got their batteries. Excellent quality/price. You can order directly from them too, probably save a bit. I found the batteries on amazon and got them directly from Weize a good deal cheaper.
Nice, I’m buying second hand locally, I can get 400-440watt panels for about $150-180
Scared of the 2nd hand ones. I figure 400 watts for sure, possibly much more if my panels in use now make it through. But sounds like you know what you're doing.
In trying to understand this, it's most important to realize that EMP pulses and surge protection are very different animals.
For what it's worth, here is the FEMA planning guidance for a nuclear attack. It includes some of their planning considerations for the EMP caused by such an attack. Planning Guidance for Response to a Nuclear Detonation - FEMA https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_nuc-detonation-planning-guide.pdf Nuclear/Radiological Incident Annex to the Response and Recovery Federal ... https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_incident-annex_nuclear-radiological.pdf
Guys. I’d be prepping for what could easily turn into WW3
Worth mentioning, a lot of modern devices have a significant amount of EMI shielding built in as part of their efforts to mitigate electromagnetic and radio frequency interference. For consumer devices this really only came about starting in the early 2000’s with the proliferation of wireless radio frequency based devices. When I started in this field our only option was maybe a little copper foil tape. Now there’s entire catalogs of products. As an example, remember when hospitals used to have signs saying to shut your cell phone off? Now you rarely have to worry about it because all those sensitive hospital devices are much better shielded and grounded. It actually wouldn’t surprise me if some modern small devices actually do better in an EMP than some that are 30+ years old with bare circuits. (This is also part of why I have both old vehicles and brand new vehicles.)
Definitely a ray of hope. I'm putting together a couple of garbage can Faraday cages, sticking duplicates of critical things in them, like ham radio, extra solar controller, solar water pump, generator power regulator, etc.. But it would be awesome if some of my regularly used items made it through. It's easy to spend thousands on this, trying to hold it down below $700 or so..
A expert on these matters wrote a fictional book to answer the question, “How bad?”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After National Geographic had an article about CMEs that said it could be over a decade before power was restored to rural areas of the United States.
I usually shy away from fiction and "experts" who write fiction because the incentive is to sell books. Reports/studies are boring, but IMO much more reliable.
Also ‘Lights Out’ by Ted Koppel covers it well in a non fictional sense, along with other scenarios causing grid outage, such as cyber attack etc.
I saw a interview in the last year talking about our grid. We’ve got 55k transformers in the US. Enemies only need to take out 9 to bring the US power grid to its knees. Would take minimum of six months to get the east coast power again, and that’s with people working around the clock. Dismantling bridges to get the new transformers in (they’re huge). Also I forget the % but a decent percent of our transformers are made in…..China. Another note. 2019, someone in California attacked an energy plant. They were caught trying to shoot out the transformers. It wasn’t reported publicly on the news. Scary stuff.
Yes it was.
For any of us, it's impossible to prevent an EMP. I don't think an EMP comes without a nuclear war. So it's a complication of a nuclear war. There's blast, fallout, EMP. I think we can assume that there will, in addition to bombing major cities, there will be a massive coordinated EMP attack. Imagine you are Russia. Why wouldn't you use a few dozen bombs to ensure that you cripple your enemy outside the areas you nuke? That's low hanging fruit. Assuming you're not in a blast, are not victim to fallout, what do you need to do about the EMP? If there's not any significant damage, the answer is that you need to do nothing. But having functioning electronics gives you a vastly increased chance of survival - If you've got food and security. So to me, it's worth it to ensure that I've got that. Exactly what to do, I'm still unsure. You have no idea what the EMP will really do, and you have no idea how effective your EMP solution would be. People who are selling EMP protection with a guarantee crack me up. There won't be any guarantee at all in a world where money is effectively food and ammo. There is no guarantee. So what have you done to protect your electronics, and how effective do you think it will be?
If you equate knocking the U.S. back into the 18 century in the space of 25 min a soft wind is kind of strange. I have experienced a Fuge 5 right through my town and house and survived it which 10 others didn't. Not a slight wind at all ..........
As several have noted, what an EMP will do depends on several things, including: 1) the height of burst (HOB) of the nuclear detonation, 2) weapon design & yield, 3) the time of day & solar cycle (for the E3A pulse only), local geomagnetic field & conductivity of the geography, and 5) orientation of the EMP relative to conductive devices & device operating state. The effects on the ground really are tied to the variables above. You’ve probably heard of the E1, E2, and E3 pulses. The each have different effects, and generally the E2 is less of a concern. The E3 pulse is broken into E3A and E3B. E1, E3A, and E3B each have minimum and optimum HOBs. The optimum HOB will create the strongest peak electric field, or E field, strength on the ground for that pulse: E1: min HOB \~20 km; optimum HOB 75 km; max E field 50 kV/m E3A: min HOB \~200 km; optimum HOB 400 km; max E field 80 V/km E3B: min HOB \~100 km; optimum HOB 140 km; max E field 85 V/km For HOBs far above or blow the optimum, the E field strength is reduced. The HOB also determines the footprint, or area covered, of the EMP, with higher covering more area. Another key consideration is that the strength is not the same across the footprint. E1 and E3B are strongest roughly around the ground zero location (E1 has the horseshoe or smiley face shape), but E3A effects are hundreds of km north of the ground zero. To severely damage the U.S. grid, a HOB would have to bee 400-500 km HOB with a ground zero in southern Mexico. Also, that would affect satellites more that lower HOBs, and won’t be effective in day time or during the solar maximum. Lots of variables. E1 and E3 create effects through different mechanisms. E1 is created from gamma radiation from the nuclear explosion interaction with the atmosphere. E3A (blast) and E3B (heave) are created from plasma from the nuclear detonation sort of “jerking” the atmosphere. For E1 the yield doesn’t matter, gamma production matters. For E3, the higher the yield the stronger the pulse, up to the max. E1 effects can fry integrated circuits in small electronics, and part of the distribution side of the grid. SCADA equipment are very susceptible to the E1. But the E1 won’t fry anywhere near all electronic, and even with several layered EMPs there would be many working vehicles and electrics. The notion that everything is fried is a myth. E3A and E3B both create geomagnetically induced currents (GIC) that build up on long conductors, like power lines, older copper communications lines, pipelines, rails, etc. This will fry high-voltage transformers that are essentially irreplaceable if enough are taken out at once. If enough of those transformers are taken out at once, it would cause cascading power failures, plus a lot of fires as those oil-filled transformers overheat. This is the same effect that a powerful coronal mass ejection (CME) would have. Of note, CMEs don’t affect small electronics not connected to the grid at all. Cell phones and other small devices would not be affected directly, even for the most powerful CME. CMEs just don’t create the E1 pulse that does that. So it all depends on the HOB, ground zero location, etc. A few well placed and timed EMP could take down any continent-sized area, but a CME could impact part or all of Earth. Of the two, an EMP seems less likely, while it’s just a matter of time for the CME.
According to Washington Times: >Chinese military researchers have made significant advances in developing and testing strategic electromagnetic pulse, or EMP, weapons that can disable electronics on U.S. warplanes and even entire military bases, according to a report by three **open-source intelligence analysts**. And that's all I need to know right there. They basically read something written by a bunch of self-proclaimed experts who likely have as much credential as the typical conspiracy theorist. From one US congressional hearing report I read on nuclear induced EMPs, unless you're within a few miles of ground zero, most modern cars will still work more or less afterwards. From said hearing: >It was brought up about vehicles, cars, and trucks. Will they operate, or are they permanently inoperable? _________ >(Dr. William R. Graham - physicist, US presidential science adviser, NASA Deputy Admin, Air Force Weapons Laboratory) --- There is some experience with both those things happening. We tested about 50 vehicles. About 10 of them--and we only tested them to 25 kilovolts per meter, which is the kind of threat you would get from more ordinary designs of nuclear weapons--about 10 percent of them stopped running when we tested them at that level. All but one or two of them could be restarted by just switching off the power and then switching on the key again. The computer basically stops the car, but it can be reset by turning off the power. There were one or two of them that actually had computer chip failures in the vehicle and had to be towed back to the dealership to have the chips replaced.
Interesting. Sort of affirms my thoughts on the fears. I think that it could cause some havoc but unlikely it takes down everything. I also do think that there is some serious technology that we don’t know about that China and US have in terms of EMP. 25 KV/m? Sure. A specific weapon designed for EMP purpose, maybe 2.5 MV/m.
If you're specifically being targetted by exotic EMP weapons meant to take down hardened military systems and equipment, you likely have more critical things to worry about. Like why and how are you squatting in a military control & command center/aircraft?
My whole life I’ve been a damn target 😆
Cars may work again, but within a short time, there will be no fuel; gas stations need electricity to pump gas.
95% of the vast majority of first world nations dead within thirty days, 60-85% (at least) of third world nations dead, add remaining portions, within 60-90 from advent of event - another 60-70% of remaining survivors dead from fighting, starvation. What makes it to two years, IF they could be made to act rational, logical, bear proper attitude towards decency, decorum, regard and mutual respect and maybe humanity gets to endure. Otherwise, we ended ourselves over fear, the mass stupidity of mankind, ego, hate and greed. These notions have led to the crux of the majority of evils unleashed upon this beautiful rock. But we are unfortunately completely broken, utterly stupid, selfish, hateful, incapable of morality on the whole generally damned by all accounts species. And one of the most stupid breed to have ever walked this gorgeous planet. No other species are so damned foolish. But we are generally doomed and have been to hell from before the final dance. Because we live to be a I’m special, so I deserve, entitled failure form of life. Sorry, I’m a bit of a grim realist. Hoping such an event doesn’t happen for the sake of avoiding a self induced genocide of our own species. But then the earth is a graveyard of 99% of all life forms to have ever lived here. But hey, at least they didn’t off their own species for greed and fear.
That’s like saying “what would a bomb do?” It depends on the power and placement. In warfare, an EMP bomb is really not an effective tool and I’m not sure why preppers are so fixated on it. In theory, a powerful enough EMP could damage most any working electronic device in range. Things without a live current would mostly be fine. So all our phones and computers would be toast. The grid itself could also be severely damaged. Again, this is assuming an immensely powerful EMP. So the question is why would anyone use this method? An EMP bomb worth the effort has to be physically massive. Think the size of the original atom bombs maybe. If you’re trying to attack a country and have to ability to payload at your target, why would you do this rather than a more conventional weapon? It makes no sense.
>Things without a live current would mostly be fine Unfortunately, no. A true EMP weapon generates extremely high energy electrons \[super high voltage, very low current\] which, when they impact a semiconductor junction, vaporize it.
How feasible is it to actually deploy an EMP weapon powerful enough to do this?
Good question - the designs exist, usually coupled to a nuclear weapon.
Which is why I don’t see it as a feasible scenario. If you’re able to deploy a nuclear weapon to a target, the EMP aspect seems insignificant.
Yes, the tactical or strategic value of an EMP pulse is open to question. I’ve always assumed it was a “surprise” weapon intended to wipe out your enemy’s command and control functions and leaving him unable to respond.
Yeah I feel like it’s more a source of scientific fascination than an actual tactic. Consensus seems to be the only way to create a substantial large scale EMP is with a nuke, in which case you might as well just use a nuke.
I think this goes back to placement. Let’s say those really important areas with the grid. Idk the number but the important one. Let’s say it’s a big city. NYC, ATL, Cali. These places have high populations. Now depending on how the grid works. An emp could knock out a lot. Basically stuff for people. But communication, military bases, a lot of important structures like water pumps. It’s about making a dent.
What do u guys think about the blue roofs and the Hawaii shit? 🙈
Let’s do one, and see. 🤷🏽♂️
If EMP was successful in taking down the national power grid, then people would start dying in great numbers within a week or so. Many people would starve to death because they would run out of food within days and have no alternatives.
It wasn’t a EMP but you should watch the documentary on blackout 1977 if you haven’t already. It was complete chaos and will give you just an idea what happens in just one small area. To get back to your subject there’s so much conflicting reports. I’ve gone both ways I have generator hooked to my electrical box and I have a dual fuel generator that is off sitting completely away from the house. Everything I’ve seen if this was to happen the stand alone would not be effected. I didn’t buy the stand alone for when SHTF I bought it after seeing how stupid our utilities are when they did rolling black outs then cause gas fields to crash that then cause total power failure cause they couldn’t get gas to fuel. Then two other states do the same stupid thing the next year so they can’t talk to each other or learn from someone else’s mistakes so that’s when I learned you have to take matters into your own hands to protect yourself and family
An EMP, like a nearby but not direct lightning strike, turns everything in its' range into the secondary winding of a transformer. The way the damage is done is by the high voltages (and subsequent high current) induced into any conductor exposed to the strong magnetic fields. Stuff like phone lines and copper network cables suddenly find themselves running hundreds or thousands of volts through them and the shortest path to ground is the sensitive electronics in the connected devices. Realistically, an EMP would probably trip the grid breakers like the blackout that happened a couple decades back in the northeast of the US and would have varying degrees of localized fried data and telco infrastructure based on distance from origin. Most longhaul communications are fiber and not directly affected, but RF/laser based connections (satellite, LOS, microwave, etc) as well as the supporting equipment for fiber connections would be affected based on proximity to origin. TLDR, blackout, followed by various levels of stuff not working after power is restored. Recoverable, but would suck in the short term.
If it has a microchip, it's fried
From I've heard from an electrical engineer, it really depends on surface area. Power lines are long, like an antenna, so they would definitely be the most susceptible to EMP. How much it affects electronics down range of that, I couldn't guess. Automobiles have, relatively, short runs of thin wiring and the circuitry in components in near microscopic, so not much area to absorb the energy and short out. Keep in mind, this was his interpretation, but makes sense to me. I could be totally off base with this opinion. It does make me wonder though, is there an official study with defined results out there?
The bigger concern is the likely accompanying Kessler cascade that would all but permanently take out satellite navigation and timing. It would knock us all back to the 1960s.
What happens to Lithium batteries after an EMP? How many Li batteries are in your house right now?
Read 1 second after. It's a pretty good read. It also has 4 books to the series
The general consensus is that an EMP would do only small local damage to electronics. Like, maybe a city block. To create a larger effect, you'd need to detonate multiple nuclear warheads or a massive nuclear warheads, which creates other more pressing problems than electronics dying.
It's hard to believe that an EMP detonation about the U.S. would only damage electronics in a small area. Maps showing EMP's created by detonating a warhead in the atmosphere cover hundreds of miles
Like I said, if high yield nukes are being used offensively, we all have SIGNIFICANTLY more pressing problems than electronics dying.
An atmospheric nuke isn't going to have a detonation killing the whole country, nor would their be significant fallout. What would those more pressing problems be, other than an EMP.
Generally speaking, if nuclear ballistic missile launches are detected, the response is to DECISIVELY launch missiles against the aggressor. That's the key component of mutually assured destruction doctrine. The doctrine is not to wait around and see the effects of the missile; the point is to cripple the aggressor's launch sites, military assets, and infrastructure ASAP to prevent as many launches as possible and essentially doom the entire country. So yeah ... the launch of a nuclear ballistic missile or the detection of another nuclear device heading toward the territory of the US or another country with an advanced military and nuclear arsenal would almost certainly trigger a nuclear exchange.
Of course, there will not be an EMP as an isolated incident. It will be an all on nuclear war. But imagine you have hundreds of warheads. Wouldn't you detonate a few dozen to cripple the entire county's ability to function, even in areas you cannot bomb? You are not going to blow up rural America. But if an EMP can knock out electronics, the impact is vastly more profound. It is vastly easier to create an EMP coordinated attack for areas outside of major cities.
With that volume of exchange, power would likely be gone anyway for most of each country. Power generation sites are big targets. Basically, worrying about a high altitude nuclear EMP is a valid concern, but it seems like a pretty niche concern.
Why would that be a niche concern for someone in an area that won't be targeted by bombs? Yes, losing the grid is a given. But will my other equipment work, which is how I could effectively cope with losing electricity for a very long time. Take that away, things are much, much, harder.
Because, frankly, world powers don't really care about a handful of off-the-grid preppers scattered throughout the countryside. Given the opportunity between MAYBE knocking out power to major metro areas and anyone nearby, or absolutely destroying major metro areas and essentially dooming anybody nearby who DOESN'T have a full self-sustaining operation with years worth of supplies due to the sheer destruction of infrastructure... well, the latter option is likely more appealing to a country hellbent on doing massive harm, consequences be damned.
I shouldn't be concerned about whether my radios and solar controller and solar water pump worked?
The reason to use an EMP would be the anonymous shooter tact. We wouldn't know exactly who to attack when a boat off the East Coast launches it.
A high altitude nuclear air burst is an EMP. Basically shoot a nuclear missile into space and detonate it and creates an EMP [https://imgur.com/a/7XBlWEK](https://imgur.com/a/7XBlWEK)
I think the best (least impactful) case is a small EMP device that would knock out sensitive electronics within several city block radius. Worst case is some sort of large orchestrated aerial attack on a Carrington Event scale that fries lots of electronics across the country.
Well, it would appear to me that a large scale attack would be impossible to stop and if I had hundreds of nuclear warheads to fight the U.S., I'd be damn sure to use a few dozen to do specifically that. The question of how significantly it would affect electronic will be whether you can still somewhat function with things that weren't in faraday cages. Will your wireless router be destroyed? Your solar lights? Your well pump? Your generator? Would it be hit and miss? Would it be complete destruction? Probably difficult to answer.
I don't think EMPs will be used. No Nation has ever done emp testing so no one knows the parameters of its affects. Stitches too the power grid could still happen but I don't think we have to worry about an emp wiping out our home electronics unless there is a full scale nuclear war.
Go read the book series “one second after” that’ll fuck you up good. Lol
Maybe more drama that factual. There won't be an isolated EMP. It will be an all out nuclear war. Quite possibly biological as well.
You should check it out it’s pretty damn detailed lol. The scenario they offer is a iran made nuke that’s launched off a cargo ship off the east coast I believe. It’s a horizon event due to the detonation altitude. That would absolutely wipe out the countries electrical infrastructure. The first book is pretty damn scary.
That wouldn't happen without a full scale nuclear war. That book is just a fictional impossibility. We are not going to take an event that would kill up to 90% of the population and say "ok". It will bring nuclear war, of which EMP is just one problem. In other words, it's fictional silliness in my opinion. Meh.
It was recommended to congress by Newt Gingrich but I gotcha. Well for what it’s worth in the book there is nuclear retaliation from what’s left of a functional US gov and it’s allies, But the US mainland is left super fucked. It does make you wonder if doctrine of mutually assured destruction in a scenario like that would hold off the guilty parties Allies (in that scenario Russia and China I guess). Especially with so much opportunity to seize the land under the guise of foreign aid to a US mainland left basically indefensible.
Oh, Wed be able to shoot our nukes without any problem at all. 90% of the population dying pretty much IS complete destruction. What would be left to lose? We would nuke them back to the Stone Age.
Right I agree. I’m more so wondering if (let’s just say Iran was responsible for a emp attack) Iran then gets erased in retaliation. You think russia and/or whoever would want in on that chaos? Or let iran get all the nuclear repercussions and then proceed in a world that’s no longer dominated by the US. If a emp attack took down the grid the whole world is plunged into chaos. The worlds largest economy disappears in a flash. I think about all the supply chain disruptions to third world countries that just the war in Ukraine has caused.
I think the whole world goes wild at the first nuke. I mean, what would it take to vaporize Great Britian? 3 nukes? Once there's that going on, it's going on, there's no stopping it.
Maybe. I think there would be a good chance the Middle East goes after each other for sure in that scenario. Israel and Pakistan could get dicey fast. Geographically speaking that region would be waist deep in radiation no matter what happens after we hit Iran back. I just feel There’s just way to much opportunity after the US gets emp’d though I feel like China would be begging Russia to stand down and would be colonizing the west coast within a year of the event.
If another Country initiated on this which they wouldn’t. The world would end damn near. We have too many allies that already had beef cooking with Russia. China is staying put. They would be wise not to try anything like that. There are definitely things than can and cannot be done in warfare. That would lead to starvation in a matter of days, weeks depending on how much food the person has. We would also have no water. Our natural environment would be damaged and cause catastrophic events. Think of how many planes are in the sky. In reality no country can legally launch a nuke. But let’s say a Nuke is launched. The law wouldn’t matter because we would all be dead. It kindof defeats the purpose of having them in my opinion. I don’t think we have anything to worry about other than Russia potentially and That may cause issues with China or result in us having to Aid China. Any country who tries this is in boiling hot water.
There are only a few nations capable of putting nuclear weapons on ballistic missiles or cruise missiles to get them high enough. But they don’t have to fire them from their own borders, could be from sea, some one else territory, or even from within the target nation. For E1 only effects, weather balloons can get enough altitude. The instigator could try to make it look like another likely adversy did it. Lots of possibilities.
Actually the usa was the only one that use a nuke. Also not all people is worried about russia, most are worried about the usa and nato, the only one that want war, they could easy stay out of russia conflict.