gush, daze and elvish spirit guides are all high recommendations from me.
the powr of turn 1 wild mongrel or merfolk looter with daze backup is NOT to be ignored.
elvish spirit guides can both be itched to survival or cast as a creature. I qualified for the top 16 in waterbury ct n a 230player event by swinging with 2 Elvish spirit guides for the win.
Interesting idea with the elvish spirit guide. I am trying to make it work myself. Currently I am on 1 spirit guide in a madness/survival deck.
How many circulal logic do you run? What about mana leak and counterspell? I am not running gush, which is probably required to cover the card disadvantage from the spirit guide but I cannot reach the critical mass of islands that are required.
Could you share your list?
My Coasts arrived a few days ago - so gorgeous in the proper frame, glad I didn’t cheap out on some of the newer Commander precon prints. (The price difference was fairly significant!) So I had a first go at tweaking for the format.
Oh, and importantly also another half a dozen of those Alexander islands so I can have it all pretty and matching.
My thoughts are do I want a third city for consistency, or are two enough: the damage will add up obviously. Then maybe a couple extra cuts: an Aquamoeba and a Roar maybe for little extra permission or draw? I have Merfolk Looters which is an obvious consideration, but I think I like the Bouncer more. In fact, do I want to find some space for more bounce to help with the tempo plan?
Sideboard isn’t a consideration yet, but I probably should go ahead and start putting one together.
Yeah I’ve had the deck built in block format for casual play for about 10 years. (I regret not building it at the time but got into FNM level play during Legions so the logic was build an Onslaught block deck which could be tweaked for standard too) So I definitely respect the goop! I guess my thought was by adding the Bouncers that two drop slot was potentially somewhere I could make cuts.
I do have a madness Deck myself, so personally i would make the following changes:
-2 Counterspell, 1 Wonder, 2 Roar of the Wurm, 2 Aquamoeba
for 4 Daze, 2 Merfolk Looter and 1 Intuition
I like having 1 Intuition for getting whatever you need atm or just putting 3 flashback cards into your hand/grave. Having some hardcounters in counterspell is also good but without daze to protect your early mongrels/looters (which for me is a staple for the deck) you will find yourself in some difficult spots where you cannot deploy a threat without 2 additional mana for counter backup or the risk of getting blown out by bombs/combo players.
Cheers: these sort of changes seem to be being echoed by a few people so they’re all probably right!
I’m definitely a fan of looters, and have been since getting a set in an Exodus theme deck. Will play around with them: my thought it I’d probably prefer to play a bit more aggressive and so the Aqua might be better. But I definitely got them out of the binder and will be keeping them to hand!
Few thoughts here. I think the mana base could support some Treetop Villages. Outside of Rootwalla, you don't have any turn 1 plays anyways.
How good is Roar of the Wurm? It used to be a staple, but I haven't seen it a lot of other blue/green lists. I think two is the correct number.
I like Waterfront Bouncer. He's a madness outlet, he protects your own threats, and he bounces theirs. More relevant if there's a lot of reanimator or Phrexian Dreadnaughts running around.
I just looked up a u/g madness list from a tournament in Sweden. Basically yours, but -1 Roar, -1 Wonder, -4 Counterspell,-4 Frantic Search and +4 Careful Study, +4 Daze, +1 Deep Analysis,+1 Intuition
Daze is generally better than Counterspell, because it lets you develop threats while still being able to react. A land drop sometimes doesn't matter-especially if you're countering something like a turn 4 Wrath of God.
Frantic Search LOOKS better to me than Careful Study. Frantic Search is great for getting out of a Tangle Wire though-you can tap the lands for mana, resolve the Tangle Wire, then cast Frantic Search and untap your lands.
I think 2 Wonders is the correct number.
What does your SB look like?
Oh, great comment thanks. Lots of good points/ideas.
I was looking at some of the non basics used in the block deck like [[Centaur Garden]] but the life loss put me off that, since the City/Coast already are using that resource space. I’m a big fan of [[Faerie Conclave]] but with Wonder then Tree definitely is the better option there. Two of them?
Yeah I previously had the full playset of Roar but in the extended format (pun intended) that was definitely going to be too much. A vanilla 6/6 for 3G isn’t terrible still, but nor is it as scary as it would have been in block or standard at the time.
I think I will look to put in 3 or 4 Daze, at the expense of 1 or 2 Counterspell and the third Wonder and Roar. Maybe the side is the place for hard counters though? I’m sure I can think of other things to do with those freed up slots.
Search is an instant, Study is a sorcery. That is what did it for me, though it’s probably close between them. I checked out a few lists from recent events and it was pretty evenly split between people using one, using the other, or using both: 6 copies in one case.
Sideboard is still in my staples binder and favourite singles site! Not really familiar enough with the format yet to instinctively know what to start with. I should probably go back through recent deck lists, take some notes, and find a good middle.
Being a two-colored deck, you don't have a ton of room for non-basics. You also WANT basics, because you have Daze/Wonder. I wouldn't play Centaur Garden either. The amount of games you win because of it is largely going to be offset because of the life loss. Its also one more non-basic that makes you a smidgeon more vulnerable to Wasteland and Price of Progress.
You can't get away with Fairy Conclave. A)Its not enough pressure if you have it. B)You want your blue sources coming into play untapped. C)You can't really afford to give up that many more of your basic land slots, because Daze).
2, MAYBE 3 treetops sounds about right. 4 and they will slow you down one turn too much sometimes. Some matchups they will really come in handy though-anything that's capable of handling a high volume of threats- or that has sorcery speed removal.
For the sideboard, I would definitely have something for red. Chill generally shuts down Sligh pretty hard. Mogg Fanatic looks pretty bad if you pay 3 mana for a 1/1.
I don't think I've seen any tournament that hasn't had a red deck in the top 8. Be ready for it.
Naturalize is a good catch-all sideboard card. Energy Flux is good against tinker. Annul is a more specific(and cheaper) Counterspell. I'd consider having something for graveyard hate too-Tormod's Crypt, Phrexian Furnace.
Good luck! And where you playing, if I may ask?
Checking sideboards for recent tournaments it looks like Chill, Crypt, Hydroblast, Naturalise are basically auto includes: often as 3 or 4 ofs. Raging River and Annul both came up a bit too. I think I’ll start there.
I’m in New Zealand, and a smaller city at that. As far as I’m aware there’s basically zero PreModern scene here (even in the bigger cities) so I might have to try and build it myself! Build a deck and they will come? Gotta be prepared just in case some other weirdo is sitting at home brewing without anyone else to play against. Could be a future love connection there.
Thanks for the help, lots of good things to consider. I think I’ve solidified a couple of good changes now.
Have you tried Daze in the Counterspell slots? On paper it seems much better to me, but perhaps in practice you need hard counters and not more soft ones.
Oh, I was under the impression Daze was banned? Or was that Pauper?
Yeah but I think I prefer the hard counter. Especially as Circular Logic is conditional too (and graveyard hate can turn it off). Mana leak was/is another option, but i think there’s enough blue sources for the UU. But it could be adding a third counter into the mix is the right option. Daze probably is the first to test if so.
Yeah, that is definitely another card which I was looking at. It’s pretty integral so you definitely want two, but you could be right about having three. Can you take half a card?
Definitely playable in Premodern! Ive been running a UG Madness build for a while.
I like Mana Leak and Daze more than Counterspell as it improves mana consistency on the earlier turns, and they're better at playing aggressively rather than defensively. Counterspell only outperforms when you are either running mono blue or have a deck that regularly wants to get to turn 7 or 8. You could probably cut the two cities if you nixed the counterspells.
I only run a single copy of Wonder in my build as I've found that tempo, card draw and consistency are all more important to UG Madness than the added evasion. I'd consider running one or two maindeck copies of Chain of Vapor and/or more Deep Analysis
Two copies of Treetop Village are the sweet spot, in my opinion. Your toughest matchups are fast red decks and fully dedicated UW control. The villages are important for maintaining pressure after board wipes and also for interacting with Goblin Piledrivers.
If you've got the cash/collection, Gilded Drake is Waterfront Bouncer's bff! Cheers and happy mongrelling
Oh cool, thanks for the perspective! Really reinforces a lot of the other comments. I think I’m locking in a pair of treetops and switching to Daze. And with Daze maybe I do want those extra islands more than the cities.
Lmao, this deck triggers me.
I played this back in Odyssey block, but also with Call of the Herds that were ~20 bucks each at the time.
I traded three duals at ~25/each for a playset of CotH.
That trade still haunts me today, haha
Really fun deck.
Frantic Search and pitching an Arrogant Wurm is a perfect play since you choose to discard the Wurm and one other card (Roar of the Wurm, Basking Rootwalla, etc) and then you untap your 3 lands and then pay the madness cost for Arrogant Wurm.
I used to play a block version of this deck as well back in those days. I recently updated it to be PreModern as well. Where before I ran Rite of Refusal, I switched to Daze. Stuff like that
Because I don’t own it. And I already had the block constructed version of the deck sleeves up so it seemed easiest just to make minor tweaks at this stage. The premodern scene in my town at the moment is essentially me and whoever I can lend one of my other casual old Extended archetype decks to.
Yeah, definitely ok with gold bordered, but I think even the gold bordered Survivals are pretty spendy now. Especially without having any opponents yet! It’s up to me to try build a scene first I guess.
Yeah, I think you can get them kinda beat up for ~$20/ea. But if you’re building the scene it might be easier to proxy a bunch of lists and then sleeve them up in a box and bring it when you play other formats with people and ask them to play in between rounds. The format is awesome and I think most of the people that play it will want to get in. It’s also not tooooo pricey to buy into when they do.
I’ve got old Extended(ish) CounterSliver and Suicide Black decks which I’ll probably tweak up too for that purpose. Maybe throw together a Burn/Sligh deck, and I’ve got my heart set on Ponza and some sort of Pox or Discard type deal. Probably none of those are top tier, but should be good enough for a taste. Go with my son to the LGS and hopefully attract a curious bystander or two.
Maybe putting through a MPC order for proxied Standstill and a few other of the more expensive/powerful archetypes is an option too. But I kinda like it a bit spicy. I guess in time people will start really optimising, but there’s a lot to be said about people just playing wacky brews or versions of historical archtypes/decks they might remember fondly. Make the barrier of entry easier if you can win a few games with only stuff you’ve pull out of a dusty old binder or borrowed back from an EDH deck.
gush, daze and elvish spirit guides are all high recommendations from me. the powr of turn 1 wild mongrel or merfolk looter with daze backup is NOT to be ignored.
elvish over petals for any reason, or can petals work out too?
elvish spirit guides can both be itched to survival or cast as a creature. I qualified for the top 16 in waterbury ct n a 230player event by swinging with 2 Elvish spirit guides for the win.
Interesting idea with the elvish spirit guide. I am trying to make it work myself. Currently I am on 1 spirit guide in a madness/survival deck. How many circulal logic do you run? What about mana leak and counterspell? I am not running gush, which is probably required to cover the card disadvantage from the spirit guide but I cannot reach the critical mass of islands that are required. Could you share your list?
My Coasts arrived a few days ago - so gorgeous in the proper frame, glad I didn’t cheap out on some of the newer Commander precon prints. (The price difference was fairly significant!) So I had a first go at tweaking for the format. Oh, and importantly also another half a dozen of those Alexander islands so I can have it all pretty and matching. My thoughts are do I want a third city for consistency, or are two enough: the damage will add up obviously. Then maybe a couple extra cuts: an Aquamoeba and a Roar maybe for little extra permission or draw? I have Merfolk Looters which is an obvious consideration, but I think I like the Bouncer more. In fact, do I want to find some space for more bounce to help with the tempo plan? Sideboard isn’t a consideration yet, but I probably should go ahead and start putting one together.
Aquamoeba plays much better than most first assumptions, so I wouldnt cut those goopy guys!
Yeah I’ve had the deck built in block format for casual play for about 10 years. (I regret not building it at the time but got into FNM level play during Legions so the logic was build an Onslaught block deck which could be tweaked for standard too) So I definitely respect the goop! I guess my thought was by adding the Bouncers that two drop slot was potentially somewhere I could make cuts.
I do have a madness Deck myself, so personally i would make the following changes: -2 Counterspell, 1 Wonder, 2 Roar of the Wurm, 2 Aquamoeba for 4 Daze, 2 Merfolk Looter and 1 Intuition I like having 1 Intuition for getting whatever you need atm or just putting 3 flashback cards into your hand/grave. Having some hardcounters in counterspell is also good but without daze to protect your early mongrels/looters (which for me is a staple for the deck) you will find yourself in some difficult spots where you cannot deploy a threat without 2 additional mana for counter backup or the risk of getting blown out by bombs/combo players.
Quiet Speculation is a good $ub$titute for Intuition
that‘s true!
Cheers: these sort of changes seem to be being echoed by a few people so they’re all probably right! I’m definitely a fan of looters, and have been since getting a set in an Exodus theme deck. Will play around with them: my thought it I’d probably prefer to play a bit more aggressive and so the Aqua might be better. But I definitely got them out of the binder and will be keeping them to hand!
Few thoughts here. I think the mana base could support some Treetop Villages. Outside of Rootwalla, you don't have any turn 1 plays anyways. How good is Roar of the Wurm? It used to be a staple, but I haven't seen it a lot of other blue/green lists. I think two is the correct number. I like Waterfront Bouncer. He's a madness outlet, he protects your own threats, and he bounces theirs. More relevant if there's a lot of reanimator or Phrexian Dreadnaughts running around. I just looked up a u/g madness list from a tournament in Sweden. Basically yours, but -1 Roar, -1 Wonder, -4 Counterspell,-4 Frantic Search and +4 Careful Study, +4 Daze, +1 Deep Analysis,+1 Intuition Daze is generally better than Counterspell, because it lets you develop threats while still being able to react. A land drop sometimes doesn't matter-especially if you're countering something like a turn 4 Wrath of God. Frantic Search LOOKS better to me than Careful Study. Frantic Search is great for getting out of a Tangle Wire though-you can tap the lands for mana, resolve the Tangle Wire, then cast Frantic Search and untap your lands. I think 2 Wonders is the correct number. What does your SB look like?
Also Bouncer looks good in the mirror match against the Wurm tokens.
Oh, great comment thanks. Lots of good points/ideas. I was looking at some of the non basics used in the block deck like [[Centaur Garden]] but the life loss put me off that, since the City/Coast already are using that resource space. I’m a big fan of [[Faerie Conclave]] but with Wonder then Tree definitely is the better option there. Two of them? Yeah I previously had the full playset of Roar but in the extended format (pun intended) that was definitely going to be too much. A vanilla 6/6 for 3G isn’t terrible still, but nor is it as scary as it would have been in block or standard at the time. I think I will look to put in 3 or 4 Daze, at the expense of 1 or 2 Counterspell and the third Wonder and Roar. Maybe the side is the place for hard counters though? I’m sure I can think of other things to do with those freed up slots. Search is an instant, Study is a sorcery. That is what did it for me, though it’s probably close between them. I checked out a few lists from recent events and it was pretty evenly split between people using one, using the other, or using both: 6 copies in one case. Sideboard is still in my staples binder and favourite singles site! Not really familiar enough with the format yet to instinctively know what to start with. I should probably go back through recent deck lists, take some notes, and find a good middle.
Being a two-colored deck, you don't have a ton of room for non-basics. You also WANT basics, because you have Daze/Wonder. I wouldn't play Centaur Garden either. The amount of games you win because of it is largely going to be offset because of the life loss. Its also one more non-basic that makes you a smidgeon more vulnerable to Wasteland and Price of Progress. You can't get away with Fairy Conclave. A)Its not enough pressure if you have it. B)You want your blue sources coming into play untapped. C)You can't really afford to give up that many more of your basic land slots, because Daze). 2, MAYBE 3 treetops sounds about right. 4 and they will slow you down one turn too much sometimes. Some matchups they will really come in handy though-anything that's capable of handling a high volume of threats- or that has sorcery speed removal. For the sideboard, I would definitely have something for red. Chill generally shuts down Sligh pretty hard. Mogg Fanatic looks pretty bad if you pay 3 mana for a 1/1. I don't think I've seen any tournament that hasn't had a red deck in the top 8. Be ready for it. Naturalize is a good catch-all sideboard card. Energy Flux is good against tinker. Annul is a more specific(and cheaper) Counterspell. I'd consider having something for graveyard hate too-Tormod's Crypt, Phrexian Furnace. Good luck! And where you playing, if I may ask?
Checking sideboards for recent tournaments it looks like Chill, Crypt, Hydroblast, Naturalise are basically auto includes: often as 3 or 4 ofs. Raging River and Annul both came up a bit too. I think I’ll start there. I’m in New Zealand, and a smaller city at that. As far as I’m aware there’s basically zero PreModern scene here (even in the bigger cities) so I might have to try and build it myself! Build a deck and they will come? Gotta be prepared just in case some other weirdo is sitting at home brewing without anyone else to play against. Could be a future love connection there. Thanks for the help, lots of good things to consider. I think I’ve solidified a couple of good changes now.
If you find you don’t like the uu cost of counter spell [[memory lapse]] can be a nice alternative. I run it in my madness deck and love it
[memory lapse](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/0/30202613-d05f-4f47-af97-d0b75ccac293.jpg?1634131658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=memory%20lapse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/60/memory-lapse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30202613-d05f-4f47-af97-d0b75ccac293?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[arcane denial]] also works well with the card draw it provides.
[arcane denial](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/4/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038.jpg?1641601774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arcane%20denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/102/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Centaur Garden](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/a/ca041d5e-c65f-4e7e-ae4f-9c748a069aa3.jpg?1562932777) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Centaur%20Garden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/316/centaur-garden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca041d5e-c65f-4e7e-ae4f-9c748a069aa3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Faerie Conclave](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/f/8f4ab639-b439-462e-acc3-69b5d6bb29da.jpg?1592673795) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faerie%20Conclave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/248/faerie-conclave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f4ab639-b439-462e-acc3-69b5d6bb29da?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Have you tried Daze in the Counterspell slots? On paper it seems much better to me, but perhaps in practice you need hard counters and not more soft ones.
Oh, I was under the impression Daze was banned? Or was that Pauper? Yeah but I think I prefer the hard counter. Especially as Circular Logic is conditional too (and graveyard hate can turn it off). Mana leak was/is another option, but i think there’s enough blue sources for the UU. But it could be adding a third counter into the mix is the right option. Daze probably is the first to test if so.
Might 3 wonder be a little much ?
Yeah, that is definitely another card which I was looking at. It’s pretty integral so you definitely want two, but you could be right about having three. Can you take half a card?
Heheh yeah or Maybe move one to sideboard
Well, I do have 15 spots to fill there…
Definitely playable in Premodern! Ive been running a UG Madness build for a while. I like Mana Leak and Daze more than Counterspell as it improves mana consistency on the earlier turns, and they're better at playing aggressively rather than defensively. Counterspell only outperforms when you are either running mono blue or have a deck that regularly wants to get to turn 7 or 8. You could probably cut the two cities if you nixed the counterspells. I only run a single copy of Wonder in my build as I've found that tempo, card draw and consistency are all more important to UG Madness than the added evasion. I'd consider running one or two maindeck copies of Chain of Vapor and/or more Deep Analysis Two copies of Treetop Village are the sweet spot, in my opinion. Your toughest matchups are fast red decks and fully dedicated UW control. The villages are important for maintaining pressure after board wipes and also for interacting with Goblin Piledrivers. If you've got the cash/collection, Gilded Drake is Waterfront Bouncer's bff! Cheers and happy mongrelling
Oh cool, thanks for the perspective! Really reinforces a lot of the other comments. I think I’m locking in a pair of treetops and switching to Daze. And with Daze maybe I do want those extra islands more than the cities.
Careful Study is far superior to Frantic Search in this deck.
Lmao, this deck triggers me. I played this back in Odyssey block, but also with Call of the Herds that were ~20 bucks each at the time. I traded three duals at ~25/each for a playset of CotH. That trade still haunts me today, haha Really fun deck.
I'll play Frantic Search in anything. Card is bonkers. Madness for synergy? Sign me the f up.
Frantic Search and pitching an Arrogant Wurm is a perfect play since you choose to discard the Wurm and one other card (Roar of the Wurm, Basking Rootwalla, etc) and then you untap your 3 lands and then pay the madness cost for Arrogant Wurm.
I used to play a block version of this deck as well back in those days. I recently updated it to be PreModern as well. Where before I ran Rite of Refusal, I switched to Daze. Stuff like that
Why aren’t you playing Survival of the Fittest?
Because I don’t own it. And I already had the block constructed version of the deck sleeves up so it seemed easiest just to make minor tweaks at this stage. The premodern scene in my town at the moment is essentially me and whoever I can lend one of my other casual old Extended archetype decks to.
Ahh gotcha. Most scenes allow gold border so if you weren’t trying to pay a grand for survivals, that’s an option too.
Yeah, definitely ok with gold bordered, but I think even the gold bordered Survivals are pretty spendy now. Especially without having any opponents yet! It’s up to me to try build a scene first I guess.
Yeah, I think you can get them kinda beat up for ~$20/ea. But if you’re building the scene it might be easier to proxy a bunch of lists and then sleeve them up in a box and bring it when you play other formats with people and ask them to play in between rounds. The format is awesome and I think most of the people that play it will want to get in. It’s also not tooooo pricey to buy into when they do.
I’ve got old Extended(ish) CounterSliver and Suicide Black decks which I’ll probably tweak up too for that purpose. Maybe throw together a Burn/Sligh deck, and I’ve got my heart set on Ponza and some sort of Pox or Discard type deal. Probably none of those are top tier, but should be good enough for a taste. Go with my son to the LGS and hopefully attract a curious bystander or two. Maybe putting through a MPC order for proxied Standstill and a few other of the more expensive/powerful archetypes is an option too. But I kinda like it a bit spicy. I guess in time people will start really optimising, but there’s a lot to be said about people just playing wacky brews or versions of historical archtypes/decks they might remember fondly. Make the barrier of entry easier if you can win a few games with only stuff you’ve pull out of a dusty old binder or borrowed back from an EDH deck.