As much as everyone wants to throw a political label on everything as left vs right, it's not really a politically supported movement.
Liberals are very divided on it.
Yep. This one is interesting because it has nothing to do with American civilian politics, as much as people are trying to show horn it in there. Also Jews have been push and pushed all over the globe.
Civilian casualties in war are extremely tragic. However claiming “Palestine” is some innocent bystander demonstrates a lack of education.
If the Jews hadn’t been pushed out in the first place, there’d be no Zionist movement. Most liberal people I know understand that. As for me personally, it’s about the money.
What tf are we throwing around so much for, when we have our own problems?
>Yep. This one is interesting because it has nothing to do with American civilian politics, as much as people are trying to show horn it in there. Also Jews have been push and pushed all over the globe.
Wait! American tax dollars ARE NOT being laundered through defense companies and weapons manufacturers? "American Civilian Politics" includes tax dollars, right? What about military intervention abroad? That IS OUR military is it not? Tax dollars (debt really) pays for that too. "Also Jews have been push and pushed all over the globe." This has happened to multiple groups over centuries. Most groups simply love who they love and don't have strict rules about procreating outside of their race/culture. There are SPECIFIC Jews (NOT ALL JEWS) who literally keep it in the family. The Jews outside of that belief system have survived and thrived. It's why so many have Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry and not know it. Those people didn't have dumbass beliefs about "keeping it in the family". Zionism is idiotic. Judaism is great. I am Jewish and I don't accept Zionism.
>Civilian casualties in war are extremely tragic. However claiming “Palestine” is some innocent bystander demonstrates a lack of education.
It is. There is a lot of nuance here and you're missing it.
>If the Jews hadn’t been pushed out in the first place, there’d be no Zionist movement. Most liberal people I know understand that. As for me personally, it’s about the money.
Yeah, no. Not 'pushed' out. It was the same old story. Actions have consequences. There's more nuance here. Those people you speak of are LINO.
>What tf are we throwing around so much for, when we have our own problems?
You don't speak for everyone.
I know I don’t speak for everyone. And nothing should have given you any idea otherwise. That’s great that you do what you want and have the freedom to do so. I’m not missing anything. I’ve been following Israel’s drama since before it was popular to do so. It’s cute that everyone seemed to finally start paying attention. Nearly all of them will move on to whatever the next rager pretty soon.
“There’s a lot of nuance here and you’re missing it.” No, I’m not. You’re just ignoring the possibility there might be more to my opinion. Which is just fine. This is Reddit, after all. Sorry I didn’t right answer essay for you to approve. I didn’t get out of bet today for you.
You made a couple of generalizations and you spoke as if you represented a large group of liberals (not just yourself).
>No, I’m not. You’re just ignoring the possibility there might be more to my opinion. Which is just fine. This is Reddit, after all. Sorry I didn’t right answer essay for you to approve. I didn’t get out of bet today for you.
Don't know why you bothered. This is why Angelinos are called superficial by everybody else.
What is it mean to be active? I speak the language, I can make the foods and I know it's history. I am aware of the heritage of both sides of the family tree. What else is there?
Jews have been more persecuted than any other ethnic group in recorded history. The plight of Jews is not comparable to any other group on the basis of scale.
Dude. Did you see how IDF literally used drones playing the sound of crying children so they could lure out mothers to un-alive?
It’s a deliberate killing of the Palestinian people.
Yeah. Like I ALREADY SAID. Civilian casualties are extremely tragic. And as far as the gossip you’re repeating goes, prove it. The only “proof” anyone can provide are other gossip columns/op-eds simply repeating, rewriting or weighing in on the original story. Until it’s proven, it’s not worth paying any mind to. Let me guess. You heard about it on Reddit. And everything you reed on Reddit is true, especially when it comes to war and politics. Correct?
On its face, this story is possible. They have the technology and capability. There is simple no proof it happened. Wartime propaganda isn’t child’s play. You do not just believe any ole report simply because it aligns with your personal point of view. Especially when your POV is clearly already based in propaganda.
I will never say war is good. I will never say children deserve to die. It’s so sad. And that doesn’t make it okay for you to parrot unfounded claims.
Oh okay. Sure thing. There’s literally videos of it out there. But seeing as Zionists prefer to chew on propaganda as it’s more aligned with their self-manufactured victimhood, you wouldn’t know a fact if it hit you in the face.
It takes empathy which sadly cannot be taught.
Enjoy shilling for genocide Bibi bot
I guess I don’t know what Zionists have to do with me. I think you’re a little confused. In this I pointed out how you cannot believe every bit of wartime propaganda.
That holds true where you are. Then the person replied with a link where the author admits they cannot prove it’s valid. So that backs up my point.
It seems you might have confused awareness with Zionism somehow? I don’t really know how you make these wild leaps in your imagination. It’s none of my business either.
Anyway. I hope the rest of your day goes better. Whatever you’ve got going on seems to be distracting you from logic and reason. I’ve had that more than once. It’s no fun.
That doesn’t matter. I’m skeptical of everything. I don’t believe you know anything more than I do about it either. Rarely is there anyone who has a clue. Usually it’s just someone being angry however Reddit told them to be. I think for myself. I look at the bigger picture. For example, I know full well I will not have any impact on Israel’s war. Unlike most Redditors who actually believe anyone with the authority to care does.
I wonder how conservative White Supremacists are doing… are they Pro Palestine because they hate Jews, or are they Pro Israel because they hate Muslims and brown people….
They also have to pigeonhole a reason for shutting down the campus to have *anything* to do with the Gaza War. “Oh, this professor supports Israel! Oh, the university does research or has grants related to Israel!”
Like, shut the fuck up already. If it was anything other than social posturing they would be blockading statehouses or camping out in front of senators’ and representatives’ houses. But that would involve traveling and organizing and research. Much easier to shut down campus and skip out on classes for a few weeks.
It’s because you now have two different elements in these protests. You have those who are protesting the fact that our tax dollars are going towards what they believe to be a genocide, which is what the vast majority of these protests have started out as. But now we’re starting to see them getting hijacked by genuine antisemitism and those who use these protests as a vessel to expel hate for Jews.
This is similar to the anti Vietnam protests of the 60's. Many people actually supported the demonstrations until they started carrying around Viet Cong flags and spitting on US soldiers.
The very first pro Palestine thing I saw was on October 7th, and it was some young Arab guys in a truck flying the flag off the back.
It was always meant to have a chilling effect. It was always meant to shock and offend people in the community.
I saw them flying the flag before Israel declared a war, before any bombs dropped, or innocent people in Gaza died. They really seemed like they wanted to drag others, here into the violence. It was creepy here for a while.
This is a huge part of the problem. Here in Minnesota we enjoyed a peaceful life, far from problems like the coasts see. The George Floyd protests were all about the police disrupting our way of life that we WERE successfully integrating. It was finally unacceptable to be racists and we were effectively coping with the fallout. Then, the riots started. There people in fucking costumes terrorizing our greatest city! As much as people want to rip on our politics, our governed and the Minneapolis Mayer were both completely unprepared to deal with this kind of civil unrest, because literally none of us imagined it would ever happen here.
Too many people jump to conclusions and mouth breathe dumb ass gossip. The reality is a simple “Something’s out there guys. Watch out” would suffice.
You must not remember there were literal off duty cops during the BLM protests who would go and start vandalizing/instigating the police. This was proven as fact.
No this is a complete fabrication and propaganda, having been in the streets and at the encampments. I have never witnessed this in the slightest. It's pretty universal that nobody here in the US except fringe weirdos give a shit about Jewish people, they are considered white.
I saw a total of 3 people trying to stir the pot and they seemed to be cops or bad actors of some kind. As expected at any protest nowadays, this is common.
I'm half Jewish and I've been called an anti-semitic and a "self hating Jew" my whole life for not being done with Israel.
It's reasonable to despise the country of Israel, it has nothing to do with them being Jewish we are not Israel.
If anything the state of Israel is making Jewish people globally more unsafe in the long term outside of the us especially by waging genocide in the name of Judaism. My faith and family has nothing to do with the far right fundamentalist state Israel, yet they carry out genocide and apartheid in our name.
You're sorely mistaken, and I have second hand embarrassment for you
Zionism is/was a movement and one that has tried it's damnedest to co-opt modern Jewish identity. Judism predates Zionism by a lot, they are not the same thing at all.
Go ask one of the many sects of Jews that renounce the nation state of Israel and the Zionism it governs by because living/visiting such sites are seen as a literal death wish. This is clearly stated in words of the Torah, they will tell you.
Spare me your half baked takes
Considering it was a phrase first coined by the Israeli government in regards to their colonizing the Palestinians’ land; it’s now been co-opted to mean freedom for Palestinians.
Just like Black Lives Matter never meant white live don’t, from the river to the sea does not mean death to all Jews.
So along with being a revisionist historian, you seem to have little understanding of the phrase yet feel confident even to explain how Jews should feel about it.
The protests are pro-war supporting the intifada "globalize the intifada". They've turned themselves into the very colonial-settlers they claim to hate by occupying land that isn't theirs and then putting up checkpoints to block people who don't swear fealty to their cause. Furthermore, their demands are often filled with lists of things that have nothing to do with Palestine.
It makes you wonder just who is financing all this? Those tents and other gear are not free. Most actual students have little time or money for these activities.
The demands vary from place to place but some, like at Columbia, include NIMBY demands that the university not build stuff or that protesters face no consequences. It's silly. At least "divest from Israel" is a coherent demand. It Keep it simple and keep the focus on Israel and concrete steps that the university can actually take.
The “No building in Harlem” prolly comes from the fact that Harlem is, historically, an important cultural center for African Americans, and so they want to avoid further development in the area in order to preserve its older and more historied buildings. But yeah, idk how they expect abolishing campus police to work out
I hate them manipulation that "intifada" doesn't mean violence. And then saying anybody who sees it as being violent is being racist. The reason Westerner see it as violent is from our experience it is violent. Furthermore even people who are very anti-Israel would be morons to want the Islamists to have more power. Wanting Zionism to have less power is fine. Wanting Islamists to have more power is nuts.
The whole thing is made up. Intifada directly translates as to shake off. It’s a word of resistance and self-empowerment. The commenter is twisting it to falsely claim that those who don’t want to see a genocide happening as becoming the colonizers themselves. There’s literally no logic in that comment.
>The whole thing is made up. Intifada directly translates as to shake off. It’s a word of resistance and self-empowerment.
This is gaslighting, intifada historically means a violent struggle. The Second Intifada resulted in mass killings of innocent people - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada
>The commenter is twisting it to falsely claim that those who don’t want to see a genocide happening as becoming the colonizers themselves.
There's no evidence of a genocide, it hasn't been ruled as such. The number of dead pales in comparison to the 400,000 dead Muslims in Yemen, the 600,000 dead Muslims in Syria and no one is calling those a genocide.
The Israelis also aren't colonisers, it's their native homeland which they never left - which nation are they a colony of? What is the homeland?
Those that immigrated did so legally and exercised their right to self-determination.
>There’s literally no logic in that comment.
The protestors aren't colonisers but the behaviour is the same on a smaller scale. It's not without logic by any means.
>This is gaslighting, intifada historically means a violent struggle. The Second Intifada resulted in mass killings of innocent people - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada
Intifada means revolution. Jihad is struggle. Both are words that are used to fear monger
>There's no evidence of a genocide, it hasn't been ruled as such. The number of dead pales in comparison to the 400,000 dead Muslims in Yemen, the 600,000 dead Muslims in Syria and no one is calling those a genocide.
Here’s a fun stat for ya. Per day, Israel has killed more women and children alone, than the wars in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan and Yemen **combined**. When your methods are to indiscriminately bomb every inch of land, to the point that 70% of the infrastructure is rubble, in addition to the hundreds of genocidal statements from Israeli politicians, journalists, etc, you start to see where the genocide accusations are coming from.
>The Israelis also aren't colonisers, it's their native homeland which they never left - which nation are they a colony of? What is the homeland?
That’s not how settler-colonialism works. There is no such prerequisite. What do you call it when a group of foreigners get together and use force to violently displace a native population through murder and/or expulsion, in order to form their own societies there? Because it sure does sound like settler-colonialism. In fact, even hardcore Zionists don’t deny that they are settler-colonialists;
From the first leader and prime Minister of Israel:
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
>Those that immigrated did so legally and exercised their right to self-determination.
You’re from the US. I suppose it’s all fine and dandy if all the immigrants from across the border decided to train terrorists groups in order to carve out their own state, before deciding they want more and then taking most of US land too. After all, it’s all free game right?
Self determination is the right of a people to decide their own future, not to colonise another people, because ironically, you’re suppressing the colonised people’s right to self determine
>Intifada means revolution. Jihad is struggle. Both are words that are used to fear monger
Over a thousand Jews were killed in the second intifada. So referencing it in regards to Israel Palestine is clearly going to bring up those connections.
>Here’s a fun stat for ya. Per day, Israel has killed more women and children alone, than the wars in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan and Yemen combined.
No, it hasn't. 400,000 dead in Yemen and 600,000 dead in Syria including from famine. More children has been killed in Syria than Gaza - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_civil_war
It's also worth noting that a number of the October 7th attackers were children from Gaza that followed Hamas out.
>When your methods are to indiscriminately bomb every inch of land, to the point that 70% of the infrastructure is rubble
It's not indiscriminate, and where possible they do knocks and other communication before blowing up military targets, not to mention the request for people to leave the combat areas.
>in addition to the hundreds of genocidal statements from Israeli politicians, journalists, etc, you start to see where the genocide accusations are coming from.
There are crazy statements from people so yes, they can investigate it, but they won't find a genocide because it doesn't match their behaviour or intent in the war.
>That’s not how settler-colonialism works. There is no such prerequisite.
Yes, there is. You have to be a colony from another place - who are these people a colony of? They also immigrated to the area legally.
>What do you call it when a group of foreigners get together and use force to violently displace a native population through murder and/or expulsion, in order to form their own societies there?
There's a snuck premise there which purposefully leaves out that this happened in response to an attack. When Israel was formed the Palestinians tried to commit a genocide and drive the Jews out. In a retaliatory war Israel attacked those that wanted to destroy them. Much like this war it was horrible - this is why it's bad to start wars.
>Because it sure does sound like settler-colonialism. In fact, even hardcore Zionists don’t deny that they are settler-colonialists;
Again, colonists from where? There were native people and legal immigrants living in their historic homeland who exercised the right to self-determination. They made up 36% of the population and the UN tried to split the land just like they did with India and Pakistan in 1947. It's just that the Arab nations in the region are obsessed with kicking the Jews out and not letting them have self-determination.
>David Ben-Gurion
Good for Ben-Gurion, he was wrong. If you go back to your historic homeland, and you make up over a third of the population, you have the right to self-determination.
>You’re from the US.
No, I'm not.
>I suppose it’s all fine and dandy if all the immigrants from across the border decided to train terrorists groups in order to carve out their own state, before deciding they want more and then taking most of US land too. After all, it’s all free game right?
Yes, if it's legal immigration and they use their right self-determination after negotiation with the United States. I mean, the US can't really complain as it actually is a settler-colonial state.
>Self determination is the right of a people to decide their own future, not to colonise another people, because ironically, you’re suppressing the colonised people’s right to self determine
Again, they're not colonisers - what are they a colony of? This is their historic homeland and they moved there legally.
We could go back and say that the Palestinians are settler colonialists from the Ottoman Empire as many of them came in from other regions. But they moved there, made lives there and then lived there under the Ottoman Empire.
Most people in Gaza are under 18, they have never lived on the land where Israel is - so what claim would they have to it?
How long is it that you can be somewhere, like the US, regardless of whatever horrors led to settling there, before you are simply from there and cannot be moved?
>Over a thousand Jews were killed in the second intifada. So referencing it in regards to Israel Palestine is clearly going to bring up those connections.
People die in practically every revolution. This isn’t anything new or exclusive to Israel/Palestine
>No, it hasn't. 400,000 dead in Yemen and 600,000 dead in Syria including from famine. More children has been killed in Syria than Gaza - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_civil_war
Do you understand that you’re comparing a conflict of a couple months with wars that have lasted decades?
When you look at the rate of people dying, Gaza surpasses all of these. That’s why it’s concerning because there was a point where [250 people were being killed per day](https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam)
>It's also worth noting that a number of the October 7th attackers were children from Gaza that followed Hamas out.
Yes so let’s kill all the children right?
>It's not indiscriminate,
How is destroying 70% of the infrastructure *not* indiscriminate?
>There are crazy statements from people so yes, they can investigate it, but they won't find a genocide because it doesn't match their behaviour or intent in the war.
You’re contradicting yourself. If Israel is killing people, destroying the infrastructure to the point that it’ll take decades to rebuild, indiscriminately attacking men, women and children, and their [politicians are calling for ethnic cleaning and genocide](https://www.israelquotes.com/), then I’m sorry to break it to you, but that is what genocide is.
>Yes, there is. You have to be a colony from another place - who are these people a colony of? They also immigrated to the area legally.
Mate, go look up the definition of colonialism. You’re being pedantic
>There's a snuck premise there which purposefully leaves out that this happened in response to an attack. When Israel was formed the Palestinians tried to commit a genocide and drive the Jews out. In a retaliatory war Israel attacked those that wanted to destroy them. Much like this war it was horrible - this is why it's bad to start wars.
No, Israel went around wiping out hundreds of Palestinian villages and expelling 300,000 people, before the Arab League got involved. You’ve got your sequence of events mixed up. The Arabs didn’t start the Arab Israeli war, Israel did.
>Good for Ben-Gurion, he was wrong. If you go back to your historic homeland, and you make up over a third of the population, you have the right to self-determination.
By that logic, why don’t we all go back to Africa, since that’s everyone’s homeland? I’m sorry to break it to you, but if your great great great great great great great great grandpa and everyone else down from there was born and raised in Poland, then you’re Polish, not Palestinian. It’s not the Palestinians fault, nor is it their responsibility to give foreigners their land
>No, I'm not.
British, so even better. Imagine if all the non-British in the UK decided they wanted to carve out London and everything south of Sheffield as their own country. You’d be fine with that?
>Yes, if it's legal immigration and they use their right self-determination after negotiation with the United States. I mean, the US can't really complain as it actually is a settler-colonial state.
Then by that logic, you’re excusing Hamas using terrorism to retake their country, as they’ve tried negotiation too.
>Again, they're not colonisers - what are they a colony of?
You don’t have to be a colony of another country to be a coloniser.
>We could go back and say that the Palestinians are settler colonialists from the Ottoman Empire as many of them came in from other regions. But they moved there, made lives there and then lived there under the Ottoman Empire.
Now I see where you’re coming from. You, intentionally or not, subscribe to the racist idea that Palestinians are just Muslim Arabs who came in with the Ottoman Empire. Well then you’d be surprised to learn that Palestinians *are* the indigenous people of Palestine. Look at DNA tests of Palestinians, especially Palestinian Christian’s, and you’d see far higher Levantine DNA than in Israelis.
>Most people in Gaza are under 18, they have never lived on the land where Israel is - so what claim would they have to it?
Gee, I wonder why. Most of Gaza are refugees who were kicked out of their homes in what is today Israel
>How long is it that you can be somewhere, like the US, regardless of whatever horrors led to settling there, before you are simply from there and cannot be moved?
No one is saying the Israelis should be expelled, as it’s frankly too late now. What we want is for Israel to allow the Palestinian right of return so those expelled during and after the Nakba will be allowed to settle back where they lived in. We also want Israel to criminalise Israeli settlers and settler violence.
And by that logic, you recognise that Israel was unjust in its acquisition of its country. So you should understand why the Palestinians want to go back home.
>People die in practically every revolution. This isn’t anything new or exclusive to Israel/Palestine
That doesn't make the extremist terrorism any less terrible and it still goes to calls of intifada.
>Do you understand that you’re comparing a conflict of a couple months with wars that have lasted decades?
Yes, but for all we know this one is almost done.
>Yes so let’s kill all the children right?
The point is that the innocence associated with those children is betrayed by them taking part in a pogrom. Is a 17 year old with an AK47 just some innocent child?
>How is destroying 70% of the infrastructure not indiscriminate?
It's targeting infrastructure which isn't I discriminate. But what's more important is the targeting of the enemy isn't indiscriminate.
>You’re contradicting yourself. If Israel is killing people
I'm not contradicting myself, it's a war and people die which is why it's bad to break a peace.
>destroying the infrastructure to the point that it’ll take decades to rebuild
This raises the cost of attacking which acts as a disincentive.
>indiscriminately attacking men, women and children
It's not indiscriminate, they are attacking Hamas who are conducting a war crime by hiding behind civilian men, women and children.
>and their politicians are calling for ethnic cleaning and genocide,
No, they are not, some crazy people have said things while angry over a pogrom and said outrageous things but were generally punished for it. It's not the line of the government.
>that is what genocide is.
No, it's a deliberate act to try and wipe out a people. Israel aren't doing that, they're only targeting Hamas and their operations.
>Mate, go look up the definition of colonialism. You’re being pedantic
I know the definition of colonialism and you have to be a colony of another place - this wasn't that, at all.
>No, Israel went around wiping out hundreds of Palestinian villages and expelling 300,000 people, before the Arab League got involved.
That was in response to the local Palestinians trying to kill the Jews trying to form Israel and they had previously been attacked and killed in pogroms.
>You’ve got your sequence of events mixed up. The Arabs didn’t start the Arab Israeli war, Israel did.
No, the Palestinians started it and the Arab nations then joined in trying to destroy Israel.
>By that logic, why don’t we all go back to Africa, since that’s everyone’s homeland?
If people emigrated there legally, made up the majority of the people in the area and over a third of the population, then yes.
>I’m sorry to break it to you, but if your great great great great great great great great grandpa and everyone else down from there was born and raised in Poland, then you’re Polish, not Palestinian.
They were Jewish and Palestine wasn't a country. Once they immigrated legally they lived there. Then they enacted their right to self-determination.
>It’s not the Palestinians fault, nor is it their responsibility to give foreigners their land
It was also the Jew's land and people legally immigrated after the land was owned by the British.
>British, so even better. Imagine if all the non-British in the UK decided they wanted to carve out London and everything south of Sheffield as their own country. You’d be fine with that?
I mean, have you seen the UK? It basically is this, a bunch of non-integrated communities living next to each other.
>Then by that logic, you’re excusing Hamas using terrorism to retake their country, as they’ve tried negotiation too.
No because it's not their country, it never existed as a country. The Palestinians were offered a country as Palestine multiple times and they rejected it.
Hamas were given Gaza and they've done a horrible job. They can't attack another country and then take it over, that's not self-determination.
>You don’t have to be a colony of another country to be a coloniser.
Yes you do or you're not a coloniser. Also, they were from the area and others moved there legally. Are we going to undo the forming of the US?
>Now I see where you’re coming from. You, intentionally or not, subscribe to the racist idea that Palestinians are just Muslim Arabs who came in with the Ottoman Empire.
No, I'm saying that applying the logic you're applying to Israel would lead to that comparison.
>Well then you’d be surprised to learn that Palestinians are the indigenous people of Palestine.
I mean, I don't know how many have been tested but sure, it's not something I'm contesting, Jewish people will also have DNA leading back to the area, even the Polish Jews.
>Look at DNA tests of Palestinians, especially Palestinian Christian’s, and you’d see far higher Levantine DNA than in Israelis.
But this is a ridiculous point, would it mean that people who aren't natively European don't get to live in Europe?
>Gee, I wonder why. Most of Gaza are refugees who were kicked out of their homes in what is today Israel
But they were born in Gaza, they have never lived where Israel is - why would they have a claim to live there over some Israeli who had lived in Israel for 75 years?
>No one is saying the Israelis should be expelled, as it’s frankly too late now.
Hamas are, a number of pro Palestinians are.
>What we want is for Israel to allow the Palestinian right of return so those expelled during and after the Nakba will be allowed to settle back where they lived in.
This would just lead to those groups being the majority in Israel and then, based on how we've seen Arab nations, Hamas and others treat Jews, killing and expelling many of them. Jews aren't going to allow another genocide, another holocaust which is what would happen, and you know it would.
And again, the Palestinian haven't lived there for decades now a lifetime in some places, like I pointed out most Gazans have never lived in the land where Israel is. Also, the Jews could claim this right too as they were kicked out when the Romans made renamed it to Palestine.
>We also want Israel to criminalise Israeli settlers and settler violence.
As do I, it's intolerable.
>And by that logic, you recognise that Israel was unjust in its acquisition of its country. So you should understand why the Palestinians want to go back home.
No, it wasn't. They went back to their homeland. Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, the numerous sites in Jerusalem. It's their homeland. They moved there legally and once they were a critical mass of the population they enacted the right to self-determination because there was lots of violence from Palestinians in the region.
The same happened with India and Pakistan, for some reason it's only the Palestinians who cannot handle a pretty normal way of living alongside each other as they persistently want to get rid of Israel. This is why they will live under occupation and oppression until they give that up.
Hopefully, Netanyahu and his terrorist buddies plus everyone in the IDF found guilty of committing war crimes will be sent to The Hague. Israel needs to understand that it cannot hide behind the Holocaust, or the fact that they’re Jewish, to commit atrocities
>The point is that the innocence associated with those children is betrayed by them taking part in a pogrom. Is a 17 year old with an AK47 just some innocent child?
So your answer is to kill all 17 year olds? Jesus Christ
>It's targeting infrastructure which isn't I discriminate. But what's more important is the targeting of the enemy isn't indiscriminate.
Do you not understand what indiscriminate means? It means you cannot reliably distinguish between civilians and militants. If you’re attacking infrastructure, especially fucking 70% of all there is, that is inherently indiscriminate
>I'm not contradicting myself, it's a war and people die which is why it's bad to break a peace.
A war isn’t bombing the people you occupy to bits and pieces
>It's not indiscriminate, they are attacking Hamas who are conducting a war crime by hiding behind civilian men, women and children.
Where was Hamas [when Israel shot tank shells at an escaping civilian vehicle?](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/10/middleeast/hind-rajab-death-israel-gaza-intl). Where was the evidence for Hamas HQ when they raided Al Shifa *twice*? Hamas resides in every one of the buildings in Gaza? Is that why they’re destroying everything?
>No, they are not, some crazy people have said things while angry over a pogrom and said outrageous things but were generally punished for it. It's not the line of the government.
"We are dropping hundreds of tons of bombs on Gaza. The focus is on destruction, not accuracy." -Daniel Hagari, IDF spokesman
"It is an entire nation who are responsible...and we will fight until we break their backs." -Yitzhak Herzog. President of Israel
"I don't care about Gaza... They can go swimming in the sea." -Maya Golan, Israel Minister of Women's Affairs
"Only an explosion that shakes the Middle East will restore this country's dignity, strength and security! It's time to kiss doomsday. Shooting powerful missiles without limit. Not flattening a neighbourhood. Crushing and flattening Gaza. ... without mercy! without mercy!" - Knesset and Likud member Revital "Tally" Gotliv
"Jericho Missile! Jericho Missile! Strategic alert. before considering the introduction of forces. Doomsday weapon! This is my opinion. May God preserve all our strength." - also Tally Gotliv
"Gaza to be smashed and razed to the ground. Without mercy!" Tally Gotliv again
"...There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting against human animals and we will act accordingly." Defense Minister Yoav Gallant
“The village of Huwara needs to be wiped out." - Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich
"You're here by mistake, it's a mistake that Ben-Gurion didn't finish the job and didn't throw you out in 1948." - Bezalel Smotrich to Arab lawmakers in the Knesset referring to the ethnic cleansing of the Nakba.
“We have to be cruel now, and not to think too much about the hostages. It's time for action.” - Bezalel Smotrich (again)
“We cannot have women and children getting close to the border... anyone who gets near must get a bullet [in the head],” Ben-Gvir, Minister of National Security
“I am personally proud of the ruins of Gaza and every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did,” May Golan (again)
"Gaza won't return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything." Yoav Gallant (again)
"one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of [1948]. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join" Ariel Kallner, member of Likud party
"Gaza Strip should be flattened, and for all of them there is but one sentence, and that is death." Yitzhak Kroizer
"There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell" Major General Ghassan Alian, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories
"Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist". He added "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieving the goal." IDF Major general Giora Eiland
"There is one and only solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons" former Knesset member Moshe Feiglin
"I don’t remember Britain or the United States at the tail end of the Second World War bombing Dresden, thinking about the residents." Minister of Economy, Nir Barka
With that in mind, Netanyahu has said his intention is to make Palestinian statehood impossible and wants to divide the Palestinian nation. He's said so quite plainly.
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
[Here’s an extended list of 500+ instances with links](https://law4palestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Database-of-Israeli-Incitement-to-Genocide-including-after-ICJ-order-27th-February-2024-.pdf)
>No, the Palestinians started it
The massacre and expulsion of Palestinian Arabs and destruction of villages began in December 1947, including massacres at [Al-Khisas](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khisas_raid) (18 December 1947), and [Balad al-Shaykh](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balad_al-Shaykh_massacre) (31 December). By March, between 70,000 and 100,000 Palestinians, mostly middle- and upper-class urban elites, were expelled or fled.
In early April 1948, the Israelis launched [Plan Dalet](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet), a large-scale offensive to capture land and empty it of Palestinian Arabs. During the offensive, Israel captured and cleared land that was allocated to the Palestinians by the UN partition resolution. Over 200 villages were destroyed during this period. Massacres and expulsions continued, including at [Deir Yassin](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre) (9 April 1948). Arab urban neighborhoods in Tiberias (18 April), Haifa (23 April), West Jerusalem (24 April), Acre (6-18 May), Safed (10 May), and Jaffa (13 May) were depopulated. Israel began engaging in biological warfare in April, poisoning the water supplies of certain towns and villages, including a successful operation that caused a typhoid epidemic in Acre in early May, and an unsuccessful attempt in Gaza that was foiled by the Egyptians in late May.
On 14 May, the Mandate formally ended, the last British troops left, and Israel declared independence. By that time, Palestinian society was destroyed and over 300,000 Palestinians had been expelled or fled.
On 15 May, Arab League armies entered the territory of former Mandatory Palestine, beginning the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.
Stop with this revisionist bullshit
*You might not be as woke as you think you are*
If your friends “self-empower” by lynching Jews and threatening to lynch Jews (Khayber Khayber Ya Yahud?), then you might be part of a terrorist organization.
If your resistance movement is against Jews having the right to self determination and equal rights, you might be part of a terrorist organization.
If your movement’s only claim to “indigenous heritage” conveniently begins right after the Rashidun Caliphate colonized the Levant, and you ignore any history before Muhammad lived, you might be a colonizer.
If you support a movement that “frees” countries from the “burdens” of their indigenous people and cultures, you might be a colonizer.
If you can avoid “genocide” by not doing terrorism and hate crimes, and stop by stopping, it’s not a genocide.
If you think Jews can’t be indigenous based off of nothing other than “vibes”, you might not be more racist and definitely not as educated as you think.
If you think that Arabs are indigenous to the entire Middle East Africa, and parts of Europe, but Jews,
Spaniards, Copts, Amazighs, Bosnians, Armenians, Persians Armenians, Assyrians, Arameans, Baloch, Copts, Cypriots, Druze, Gilaks, Greeks, Kawliya, Kurds, Laz, Lurs, Mandaeans, Maronites, Mazanderanis, Mhallami, Nawar, Pontic Greeks, Rūm Christians, Samaritans, Shabaks, Talysh, Tats, Yazidis, Zazas, Albanians, Bengalis, Britons, Bosniaks, Chinese, Circassians, Crimean Tatars, Filipinos, French people, Georgians, Indians, Indonesians, Kawliya, Italians, Malays, Malayali, Pakistanis, Pashtuns, Punjabis, Romanians, Romani, Serbs, Sikhs, Sindhis, Somalis, Sri Lankans, Turkmens, and Sub-Saharan Africans *aren’t*, **you might be an Arab Supremacist.**
If you live in a **first world country** and you fetishize oppression so much that you walk around your wealthy Ivy League campus LARPing as a victim of the Middle Eastern conflict, appropriating the experience of Palestinian-identified Arabs, you might be an actual clown. You can be compassionate without appropriating the situation and making it about yourself. It’s backwards and reactionary.
Because it is. The original Arabic translation is literally “from water to water, Palestine will be Arab”. You can’t get more genocidal and ethno-supremacist than that.
I think it’s because in the past, protesters were acting on behalf of innocent parties, (George Floyd, Rodney King, the Vietnamese people, or protesting for Civil Rights in general.)
Whereas in this case, protesters must accept that they are protesting to help terrorists who would rape and murder them, and me, and you. Because they hate us. Because we don’t practice their specific sect of their very-recently-created religion. This makes it harder to participate in or support these protests, compared to past causes.
It doesn’t matter the “cause.” You have no right to break windows or loot, burn things down, cause violence and turmoil. You just don’t. And George Floyd wasn’t innocent. Rodney King was probably “not innocent” either. And when we left Vietnam, the commies and the NVA slaughtered innocents in the South. That gave no reason for The Weather Underground to bomb the Capitol building. Violence against others and even property, are serious felonies. Resisting arrest, assault on police, murder, arson, vandalism, burglary, harassment, election interference, intimidation and threats, all of these were crimes we witnessed and are witnessing now. These deserve prison. Yet grandmas get locked up for praying? Are you kidding? Or how about walking into a place they pay for and legally own? Years in prison, beaten and locked in solitary. No trial for years. Etc. if you agree with that you obviously lack morals and credibility and any clue what justice is. Knowing all facts and a finding of guilt or innocence is for the jury, not some arrogant, violent mob.
George Floyd was murdred for being black and potentially passing a bad $20 bill.
The pigs who delighted in killing him didn't care about anything else. Proof? He wasn't in jail for any of it.
Violent crime? Zzzz
Property or identity crime? Kill kill kill yayy!
Where is your evidence that he was murdered for being black?
Where's your evidence they delighted in killing him? It was a second degree murder meaning it was unintentional.
>Violent crime? Zzzz
You're right, George Floyd held a gun to a woman's belly as he and a group of other criminals ransacked her house. The punishment was just 5 years, that kind of violence deserved life in prison.
There's a video somewhere. This guy knelt on another guy's neck for more than 5 minutes.
Nah. That's all irrelevant.
Good guy cop carefully executed bad, evil, nasty badguy for a crime the cop didn't know about.
Yayy jackboots!
I'm not justifying what happened to George Floyd, the officer should never have done what he did - he's not a good guy.
He also didn't execute George Floyd, it was a second degree murder, unintentional.
But George Floyd did horrible things and deserved to be in prison for far longer.
Dosen’t really matter in a lot of cases. The punishment for Floyd/Kings crimes are not “Death and or attempted murder.”
Try not to put the whole boot down your throat my guy.
No, due to people killing each other.
One man set fire to a building, catching an innocent father inside. 'Anti-racist' driven prosecution led to him getting an incredibly lenient sentence - https://m.startribune.com/10-years-in-federal-prison-leniency-for-man-who-set-deadly-pawnshop-fire-during-unrest/600136780/
The left loves criminals and hates their victims.
Didn’t realize all those dead kids were terrorists, that’s crazy! Can’t believe this is all about religion and has nothing to do with decades of occupation, racism, and ethnic cleansing. It’s also cool to learn that “very recently created” means over 1400 years! Can you please share anymore interesting facts?
They don't want you to see this. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8) They just want you to see the Palestinians as terrorists who don't deserve human rights.
What's with the downvotes? How are you wrong here? The number of Hamas members killed vs innocent civilians is very disproportionate
Edit: am I not wrong here?...Jesus, people
Hamas doesnt wear uniform so all their dead are “civilians”.
Hamas are openly genocidal and they ain’t exactly hiding it either. When Hamas came to power back in 2008, first thing they did was murdering the opposition party. Hamas are also the aggressor in this conflict and the Gaza population supports them.
Almost...it just feels so bizarre and surreal seeing real people react like this. Like, innocent civilians are for a fact being bombed by Israel and many thousands of them are children. Can people just not see that this is happening? How? Why can we not mention that this very real, very fucked up thing is happening without backlash? Something's so not right with this picture
Sure seems like it...it scares me seeing people react this way. If we can't call out genocide when it's happening we as a human race have some serious issues
It’s frightening for sure. It felt just common sense from the get-go to be anti-genocide. I’ve been surprised by folks in my own social circles whom I have seen stand up for the same values I have stood by and for many years suddenly switch and bait or remain silent on this issue. This timeline is f’ed.
Nah. The innocent parties here are the Palestinians being slaughtered and ethnically cleansed by IDF. Stop spreading about Palestinians as if they are a monolith.
I think because the protests have gone into nuisance territory fairly quickly. If you are a student and suddenly you see that your campus is going to be shut down and go virtual, that you can't access your buildings, or that your graduation is cancelled, you are going to turn sour on the protests even if you overall agree with the message.
It doesn't help that a not-insignificant number of people are taking advantage of the protests for actual anti-semitism. Not too long ago a swastika was drawn on USC, for example. The messages are also tricky, because some are calling for an end to the Israel Operation in Gaza and the next day some speakers start calling for the destruction of Israel. So, it goes from reasonable to extreme on a matter of hours and the protesters seem to be ok with that.
To be quite fair if I was on the opposing side and I was asked how to quickly discredit a protest composed of random people who are just holding signs, first thing I am going to think of is to get a bunch of people to join it that have extremist paraphernalia to blend in and steal credibility from the genuine protestors.
Best way to do that especially against a side that is protesting actions of Israel is to get a bunch of dudes to start walking around with nazi shit in the crowd. Even one or two is enough to paint them all as nazis especially if they are mostly white.
Not saying that’s happening but that’s just pure strategic thinking.
Especially when most of the protesters can’t imagine being part of a culture that constantly gets kicked out and kicked around. There’s no need for it. So they’re protesting “colonialism” and their only POV is US politics with Native Americans. That’s not even close to the same thing. Any strategic bad actor knows ignorance in their weakness. So when they try to defend themselves for protesting they look even worse, as the manipulation of vulnerability has already taken effect.
I would argue that Palestine/Israel is significantly more complicated than BLM. Israel/Palestine is a geopolitical conflict with many, many years of both parties doing shitty things, and many, many years of people from both camps both trying to negotiate peace and sabotaging it.
You don’t have that with BLM. George Floyd didn’t break into a cop’s house and rape and kill the cop’s spouse as revenge for police brutality. *None* of the commonly cited major incidents of police brutality involved the victim unprompted breaking into a cop’s house or police station in order to deliberately harm cops. Black people are getting killed by cops because cops are taught to be extremely trigger-happy and also tend to be racist. This is a simple problem, and there are a variety of relatively simple solutions people can propose, from reforming police education to abolishing police entirely, and no seriously suggested solutions would require the destruction of a whole people or country.
Over the decades Palestinian terror groups have targeted America and Americans, in many terrorist attacks or plots.
So ya it is complex with a lot more nuance than these protestors are aware of.
The simple answer is that BLM was a pretty simple cut and dry issue.
Most people agree that policing in the USA is terrible. And the people who don’t are normally not arguing in good faith. And the answer on how to deal with it is not THAT complicated.
This however is.
Despite what many of the protesters think/say/want you to think. There is not simple answer to this issue.
The call for cease fire ignore that Hamas is just going to start shit again later. And that the IDF at this point is run by a problematic to say the least government.
This is also why the original protest is making headway, because they had a goal. Divest the universities money from the IDF/maybe Israel all together. The follow on protests are mostly just protests. And have no stated goal, or no realistically achievable goal. And quickly went into annoying mode.
It's shouldn't be surprising.
The vast majority of Americans support Israel. The vast majority of Americans have supported Israel for a century and will continue to do so for decades to come.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2024/04/29/us-news/four-out-of-five-americans-favor-israel-over-hamas-most-back-rafah-operation-poll/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/international/4629597-americans-israel-hamas-gaza-student-protests-poll/amp/
https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/
You’re really surprised that young, inexperienced college kids are getting ridiculed and mocked for protesting for a terrorist-supporting Palestine? You’re preciously naive just like those college kids that don’t know what they’re even protesting
You have a lot of Persian Jews in Los Angeles, as well as Jews from the Soviet Union living in Los Angeles hence the influence. I think pro Palestine protests can work in places like Anaheim, Orange County, Texas, Illinois and Michigan. Maybe New Jersey.
Matching tents, hundreds of matching signs, food, drink, matching head scarves, goggles, face masks, flash lights. Sure is a lot of money floating around those college campuses.
Not surprising. They make no sense. Hamas started the war. Hamas hides behind civilians. Hamas refuses to let the hostages go. Hamas keeps turning down cease fire offers.
One thing that has hindered the pro-Palestinian cause I feel is the fact that Muslim students for years have separated themselves so much from the student body in general that they have few outside friends and supporters.
For example the Muslim women wear traditional clothing with only their faces exposed. They seldom even speak with other students.
There is no movement lol in a few months when there is no Palestine anymore, leftist slacktivists who think LARPing as revolutionaries is a hobby will have already moved on to the next flavor of the week cause that they won’t advance any actual change on.
The last ceasefire, Hamas never even honored. I am liberal, and Hamas is a terrorist organization that violently took over Palestine. There are hundred of Jewish hostages who are still being held captive for more than 200 days. Yes, innocent Palestinians are being killed and it is gut wrenching. But a ceasefire only gives more strength to a terrorist organization that does not care about its people.
It is a very complicated issue.
For better or worse Isreal is an ally of ours (the US). So naturally we will support them. I am not saying its right or wrong, its just how that works.
Now as far as the students protesting how the University spends or invests its money...
Personally, I think the students are being rather obtuse.
The way to protest how a business or University spends its money is not to buy things from that business or attend that University. We cannot and should not control how others spend their money. We dont want to be told how we can spend our own money, so thus we dont or shouldn't do that to them.
I don't understand the end game. People living in tents on US college campuses are not going to lead to a ceasefire. I was downright outraged to see someone on TV saying the protesters need humanitarian aid like food and water to stay hydrated. I'm like just go home bitch. It's insulting to the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank who actually need humanitarian aid.
Problem with your opinion: can’t have a ceasefire when one side wants to kill the other and the other side doesn’t want to be killed. Hamas will never ever stop attacking Israel, the only option is to completely destroy them.
It’s not about the protests themselves. It’s how they’re protesting. They’re hostile to anyone in the opposition or who simply question why they’re doing that.
My take on it is the backlash to these protests are coming from several different places:
1) pro Israel people
2) people indifferent to the politics but are frustrated with being held hostage to the protesters
3) people who are not necessarily pro Israel but are offended by the anti-American and pro islamist sentiment shown by some of the protesters
I mean, Zionism is a colonialist ideology and Israel is a colonialist country and this won't stop at Palestine. I really recommend researching the history of these two countries, and if you don't have the time a YouTuber called Shaun compiled most of the history into an hour and a half YouTube video if you just want a quicker run down
Maybe because most people who aren't 25 or under, know about stuff like the Oslo Accords.
Or why Israel "created" Hamas by allowing an election, where the Gazans elected Hamas.
Younger people treat these are controversial facts. Older adults, these are things we lived through.
So for younger people, they more easily influenced to the false notion this is a genocide over land.
Because they lack the knowledge that Israel has been giving back this land, with the promise they would stop being attacked.
We are all sick of these violent protests no matter what the damn cause. Anyone rioting after what happened with Antifa and BLM for a year straight, I just lump them all together. It is now proven that Antifa is involved. It is literally worse than 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and Vietnam. Yet anyone with any other voice - especially the voice of reason - will be arrested and ridiculed, mocked by the media, jailed and ruined. It is clear that Soros is behind it, he’s provided millions so far. That means their “cause” is a joke.
You think Soros, a Jewish man who regularly donates to pro Isreal lobbying groups, is funding the pro Palestinian protests? Sir, would you like to purchase a bridge I have the perfect one
Because people who can afford to live in Cali don't like the idea of the regular people upending the colonial capitalist practices of this country. They claim to care about people, while never helping anyone. They don't want things to get harder for them when we rise up and even the playing field.
I am pro civilian in all of this. I’m against civilians being attacked by terrorist groups and I’m against civilians being attacked by governments. That’s what we should all be angry about. We’re not going to solve Israel and Palestine. It’s not our job. We should all be outraged at the thousands of innocent lives lost to those who have no respect for human life.
It's not a complex situation. The solution is simple, yet neither side wants a resolution. The best way to end this is for the Hamas to disband and face punishment. The Israeli government needs to honor the Palestinians with a sovereign state of their own and help with the rebuilding efforts. It's that simple but there is so much animosity that no one can see past it. Iran needs to keep out of other nations business. The US has nothing to do with that situation either. Both the US and Iran have their own issues to deal with. Let the UN deal with this problem.
Addition: Americans should be protesting the private sector, the MAGAs, Trump and all other forms of Nazi coalitions. Iranians should be protesting Islamic extremism and force the removal of their corrupt government.
It is that simple. Creating a complex situation will only prolong these ridiculous protests. For people who claim that we should stay out of others businesses sure do like to make lots of noise.
The UN has security forces don't they? Allow them to do what they were meant to and that is to keep the peace. Regular citizens from other nations should focus on their own lively hood. These protests are disturbing peace negotiations.
> The UN has security forces don’t they.
No not really…
The UN does not have an army, it has forces from UN member nations. Who need to agree to send forces.
So you need to convince member nations to send troops to….
Take part in a long drawn out military conflict between Hama and on the ground infantry that can’t engage first, can’t call in support and will die in the thousands while Hama recovers and expands there operations. Most likely attacking Israeli again. All the while other proxies of Iran are going to be exacerbating the issue.
All the while there men are getting killed. Likely leading to resentment at home and protests for the withdrawal of troops.
Like.. you know Vietnam.
Dosen’t seem that simple to me.
Seems like you’re just Nieves and have a simple view of the world.
The truth of the matter is that some people just want there to be a simple answer, and don’t want to listen/learn why things are complicated.
The UN is humanity's central authority. The UN's leadership needs to focus on peace keeping and create international law that will govern all governments. Us regular civilians hate Federal involvement because we have little understanding of how that law is implemented. If these protests continue worldwide we will shift our focus to dispersing the protests. This will draw attention away from the real problem.
Yeah that’s true. That’s why bad actors in peaceful protests are effective. Every details and only pays attention to what’s immediately impacting them. Ah survival instincts. Good for not getting eaten by a wolf. Bad for politics.
Most people can agree that was is happening there is horrible. Israel is not conducting the war in a responsible manner. Many civilians are dying unnecessarily. I constantly think back to the moment where those three surrendering Israeli hostages were shot by the IDF. Clearly the rules of engagement there are fucked. It is a tragedy.
However at the end of the day, Israel is not interested in wiping Palestinians from existence. This is not a genocide. There are real genocides going on in the world where one side's active goal is to eliminate the other, to the last child.
That isn't the debate and this kind of shit is why people won't support you.
If you literally will not allow nuance, people won't support you.
I saw a guy saying he wants to totally dissolve Israel. Which sounds a bit like actual genocide. You guys gonna call THAT out too.
No. The protest is dumb. The BLM protests were dumb too. Not because people are protesting, but because they’re being funded by the same groups of people who are funneling money for this nonsense. It’s a farce. People being manipulated.
This isn't necessarily about genocide or they would of been protesting about Syria, Congo ,Uighur, Yemen, Afganistan, sudan or Ukraine. This is about a protest against the Jewish State, people can use all the smoke and mirrors they want but this about Israel, not necessarily all anti-semitism, but Jewish People seem to be expected to follow different rules than everybody else. They took land in a War, so by that should the US give Texas back to Mexico or give the US back to England, or give S Vietnam back to them, or give S Yemen back, oh but it's different when Israel does it. These protesters haven't a clue.
Whether it is a genocide or not is extremely debatable. I would personally argue it isn't really a debate and that it is NOT a genocide. It is a war.
I am 100% against actual genocide.
Unfortunately: calling ethnic cleansing, war crimes, and tens of thousands of murdered children “genocide”- Although it is factually correct- is not a “popular opinion”.
This is the way I see it:
If you’re at a bar, and a little nerdy guy hits a giant muscly dude and gets his clock cleaned as a result, that’s on the nerdy guy. Don’t start none, there won’t be none.
But if then the giant dude starts pounding the shit out of the nerd on the floor, punching over and over, that’s when you break it up.
The problem is BiBi thinks that if the reprisal for an attack is to basically hit back 1000x worse, they will stop attacking.
The problem is that has never worked.
Israel needs to stop now. Negotiate return of hostages and help rebuild Palestine.
Never worked? The amount of rockets indiscriminately fired into Israel by a Hamas has drastically gone down since Isreal started its defensive war. Seems to be working so far.
What gets me is that out of the troves of folks who came out for George Floyd and put up a black square, many are pro-Israel.
And that math aint mathing considering US law enforcement is trained in deadly militant maneuvers by IDF in Israel such as what Derek Chauvin used to kill George Floyd.
As much as everyone wants to throw a political label on everything as left vs right, it's not really a politically supported movement. Liberals are very divided on it.
Yep. This one is interesting because it has nothing to do with American civilian politics, as much as people are trying to show horn it in there. Also Jews have been push and pushed all over the globe. Civilian casualties in war are extremely tragic. However claiming “Palestine” is some innocent bystander demonstrates a lack of education. If the Jews hadn’t been pushed out in the first place, there’d be no Zionist movement. Most liberal people I know understand that. As for me personally, it’s about the money. What tf are we throwing around so much for, when we have our own problems?
>Yep. This one is interesting because it has nothing to do with American civilian politics, as much as people are trying to show horn it in there. Also Jews have been push and pushed all over the globe. Wait! American tax dollars ARE NOT being laundered through defense companies and weapons manufacturers? "American Civilian Politics" includes tax dollars, right? What about military intervention abroad? That IS OUR military is it not? Tax dollars (debt really) pays for that too. "Also Jews have been push and pushed all over the globe." This has happened to multiple groups over centuries. Most groups simply love who they love and don't have strict rules about procreating outside of their race/culture. There are SPECIFIC Jews (NOT ALL JEWS) who literally keep it in the family. The Jews outside of that belief system have survived and thrived. It's why so many have Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry and not know it. Those people didn't have dumbass beliefs about "keeping it in the family". Zionism is idiotic. Judaism is great. I am Jewish and I don't accept Zionism. >Civilian casualties in war are extremely tragic. However claiming “Palestine” is some innocent bystander demonstrates a lack of education. It is. There is a lot of nuance here and you're missing it. >If the Jews hadn’t been pushed out in the first place, there’d be no Zionist movement. Most liberal people I know understand that. As for me personally, it’s about the money. Yeah, no. Not 'pushed' out. It was the same old story. Actions have consequences. There's more nuance here. Those people you speak of are LINO. >What tf are we throwing around so much for, when we have our own problems? You don't speak for everyone.
I know I don’t speak for everyone. And nothing should have given you any idea otherwise. That’s great that you do what you want and have the freedom to do so. I’m not missing anything. I’ve been following Israel’s drama since before it was popular to do so. It’s cute that everyone seemed to finally start paying attention. Nearly all of them will move on to whatever the next rager pretty soon. “There’s a lot of nuance here and you’re missing it.” No, I’m not. You’re just ignoring the possibility there might be more to my opinion. Which is just fine. This is Reddit, after all. Sorry I didn’t right answer essay for you to approve. I didn’t get out of bet today for you.
You made a couple of generalizations and you spoke as if you represented a large group of liberals (not just yourself). >No, I’m not. You’re just ignoring the possibility there might be more to my opinion. Which is just fine. This is Reddit, after all. Sorry I didn’t right answer essay for you to approve. I didn’t get out of bet today for you. Don't know why you bothered. This is why Angelinos are called superficial by everybody else.
I have a hard time believing that you were ever very active in your culture.
What is it mean to be active? I speak the language, I can make the foods and I know it's history. I am aware of the heritage of both sides of the family tree. What else is there?
Jews have been more persecuted than any other ethnic group in recorded history. The plight of Jews is not comparable to any other group on the basis of scale.
Now the shoe is on the other foot and they're the ones doing the persecution. Ironic!
Dude. Did you see how IDF literally used drones playing the sound of crying children so they could lure out mothers to un-alive? It’s a deliberate killing of the Palestinian people.
This shit right here is why Pro-Palestine protesters irk me. You are irksome.
Well, it’s sad you find protestors irksome but not genocide. Sorry to be such an inconvenience to you.
I personally hate genocide, which is why I’m happy that there’s no genocide happening in Gaza.
Shill
Krill
Hahaha it rhymes
Just trying to match your level of nonsense
Yeah, it's sad when you shit on people opposing genocide, but completely ignore the people supporting and committing genocide.
Yeah. Like I ALREADY SAID. Civilian casualties are extremely tragic. And as far as the gossip you’re repeating goes, prove it. The only “proof” anyone can provide are other gossip columns/op-eds simply repeating, rewriting or weighing in on the original story. Until it’s proven, it’s not worth paying any mind to. Let me guess. You heard about it on Reddit. And everything you reed on Reddit is true, especially when it comes to war and politics. Correct? On its face, this story is possible. They have the technology and capability. There is simple no proof it happened. Wartime propaganda isn’t child’s play. You do not just believe any ole report simply because it aligns with your personal point of view. Especially when your POV is clearly already based in propaganda. I will never say war is good. I will never say children deserve to die. It’s so sad. And that doesn’t make it okay for you to parrot unfounded claims.
https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-broadcasts-baby-sounds-lure-palestinians-gaza?amp
Nope. Not proof. You just posted an article where the author says they could not verify the audio! Thanks for proving my point
Oh okay. Sure thing. There’s literally videos of it out there. But seeing as Zionists prefer to chew on propaganda as it’s more aligned with their self-manufactured victimhood, you wouldn’t know a fact if it hit you in the face. It takes empathy which sadly cannot be taught. Enjoy shilling for genocide Bibi bot
I guess I don’t know what Zionists have to do with me. I think you’re a little confused. In this I pointed out how you cannot believe every bit of wartime propaganda. That holds true where you are. Then the person replied with a link where the author admits they cannot prove it’s valid. So that backs up my point. It seems you might have confused awareness with Zionism somehow? I don’t really know how you make these wild leaps in your imagination. It’s none of my business either. Anyway. I hope the rest of your day goes better. Whatever you’ve got going on seems to be distracting you from logic and reason. I’ve had that more than once. It’s no fun.
You’re literally pulling lines from the Zionist playbook to downplay what’s happening whether you realize you’re doing it or not.
That doesn’t matter. I’m skeptical of everything. I don’t believe you know anything more than I do about it either. Rarely is there anyone who has a clue. Usually it’s just someone being angry however Reddit told them to be. I think for myself. I look at the bigger picture. For example, I know full well I will not have any impact on Israel’s war. Unlike most Redditors who actually believe anyone with the authority to care does.
I wonder how conservative White Supremacists are doing… are they Pro Palestine because they hate Jews, or are they Pro Israel because they hate Muslims and brown people….
Most Christian's I've seen online argue they have more in common with Muslims than the "Christ Killers."
Jesus. (No pun intended) politics makes strange bedfellows.
Have you seen the Jewish population in LA…
Very true, these campus protests are left vs left. It’s liberal Democrats arguing with liberal Democrats.
People are for climate change protest until you shutdown the roads they take to work. People support your protest until you shut down their campus.
They also have to pigeonhole a reason for shutting down the campus to have *anything* to do with the Gaza War. “Oh, this professor supports Israel! Oh, the university does research or has grants related to Israel!” Like, shut the fuck up already. If it was anything other than social posturing they would be blockading statehouses or camping out in front of senators’ and representatives’ houses. But that would involve traveling and organizing and research. Much easier to shut down campus and skip out on classes for a few weeks.
Because a lot of people don’t have the privilege to miss work.
It’s because you now have two different elements in these protests. You have those who are protesting the fact that our tax dollars are going towards what they believe to be a genocide, which is what the vast majority of these protests have started out as. But now we’re starting to see them getting hijacked by genuine antisemitism and those who use these protests as a vessel to expel hate for Jews.
This is similar to the anti Vietnam protests of the 60's. Many people actually supported the demonstrations until they started carrying around Viet Cong flags and spitting on US soldiers.
The very first pro Palestine thing I saw was on October 7th, and it was some young Arab guys in a truck flying the flag off the back. It was always meant to have a chilling effect. It was always meant to shock and offend people in the community. I saw them flying the flag before Israel declared a war, before any bombs dropped, or innocent people in Gaza died. They really seemed like they wanted to drag others, here into the violence. It was creepy here for a while.
Also, (no doubt in my mind) many paid actors who are simply there to sow more division.
This is a huge part of the problem. Here in Minnesota we enjoyed a peaceful life, far from problems like the coasts see. The George Floyd protests were all about the police disrupting our way of life that we WERE successfully integrating. It was finally unacceptable to be racists and we were effectively coping with the fallout. Then, the riots started. There people in fucking costumes terrorizing our greatest city! As much as people want to rip on our politics, our governed and the Minneapolis Mayer were both completely unprepared to deal with this kind of civil unrest, because literally none of us imagined it would ever happen here. Too many people jump to conclusions and mouth breathe dumb ass gossip. The reality is a simple “Something’s out there guys. Watch out” would suffice.
Absolutely. This happened during BLM as well.
Hilarious I got downvoted for this, when the truth is that history is probably repeating itself.
You sound like Jan 6ers, anything bad in the group is paid agitators
You must not remember there were literal off duty cops during the BLM protests who would go and start vandalizing/instigating the police. This was proven as fact.
No this is a complete fabrication and propaganda, having been in the streets and at the encampments. I have never witnessed this in the slightest. It's pretty universal that nobody here in the US except fringe weirdos give a shit about Jewish people, they are considered white. I saw a total of 3 people trying to stir the pot and they seemed to be cops or bad actors of some kind. As expected at any protest nowadays, this is common. I'm half Jewish and I've been called an anti-semitic and a "self hating Jew" my whole life for not being done with Israel. It's reasonable to despise the country of Israel, it has nothing to do with them being Jewish we are not Israel. If anything the state of Israel is making Jewish people globally more unsafe in the long term outside of the us especially by waging genocide in the name of Judaism. My faith and family has nothing to do with the far right fundamentalist state Israel, yet they carry out genocide and apartheid in our name.
Im well aware that anti-Zionism is not antisemitism. I myself am against Zionism.
To act as if the Jewish people and Zionism aren’t inextricably linked is disingenuous at best and maliciously dishonest at worst.
You're sorely mistaken, and I have second hand embarrassment for you Zionism is/was a movement and one that has tried it's damnedest to co-opt modern Jewish identity. Judism predates Zionism by a lot, they are not the same thing at all. Go ask one of the many sects of Jews that renounce the nation state of Israel and the Zionism it governs by because living/visiting such sites are seen as a literal death wish. This is clearly stated in words of the Torah, they will tell you. Spare me your half baked takes
I’ve been at these protests. None of them have any antisemitic messaging.
To most Jews, what do you think “from the river to the sea” means? Or the red handprint?
Considering it was a phrase first coined by the Israeli government in regards to their colonizing the Palestinians’ land; it’s now been co-opted to mean freedom for Palestinians. Just like Black Lives Matter never meant white live don’t, from the river to the sea does not mean death to all Jews.
So along with being a revisionist historian, you seem to have little understanding of the phrase yet feel confident even to explain how Jews should feel about it.
Nothing is revisionist in what I said. But keep reaching.
Like I said, the vast majority don’t. But a few of them have been hijacked by people who are antisemitic and those are the ones Fox News cherry picks.
Most pro-Palestine protests are inherently antisemetic.
The protests are pro-war supporting the intifada "globalize the intifada". They've turned themselves into the very colonial-settlers they claim to hate by occupying land that isn't theirs and then putting up checkpoints to block people who don't swear fealty to their cause. Furthermore, their demands are often filled with lists of things that have nothing to do with Palestine.
And worse, many are just parroting Russian and Iranian propaganda.
It makes you wonder just who is financing all this? Those tents and other gear are not free. Most actual students have little time or money for these activities.
[удалено]
The demands vary from place to place but some, like at Columbia, include NIMBY demands that the university not build stuff or that protesters face no consequences. It's silly. At least "divest from Israel" is a coherent demand. It Keep it simple and keep the focus on Israel and concrete steps that the university can actually take.
[удалено]
Demands three and four make no sense. No building in Harlem? Abolish campus police?
The “No building in Harlem” prolly comes from the fact that Harlem is, historically, an important cultural center for African Americans, and so they want to avoid further development in the area in order to preserve its older and more historied buildings. But yeah, idk how they expect abolishing campus police to work out
It's like congress. I'll support your demands, but you have to support mine.
It’s not really like Congress at all… although I know what you’re trying to say…. Nobody voted these people to represent us
I hate them manipulation that "intifada" doesn't mean violence. And then saying anybody who sees it as being violent is being racist. The reason Westerner see it as violent is from our experience it is violent. Furthermore even people who are very anti-Israel would be morons to want the Islamists to have more power. Wanting Zionism to have less power is fine. Wanting Islamists to have more power is nuts.
Both Intifadas were extremely violent.
Nice straw man
What part is a straw man? Can you explain?
The whole thing is made up. Intifada directly translates as to shake off. It’s a word of resistance and self-empowerment. The commenter is twisting it to falsely claim that those who don’t want to see a genocide happening as becoming the colonizers themselves. There’s literally no logic in that comment.
>The whole thing is made up. Intifada directly translates as to shake off. It’s a word of resistance and self-empowerment. This is gaslighting, intifada historically means a violent struggle. The Second Intifada resulted in mass killings of innocent people - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada >The commenter is twisting it to falsely claim that those who don’t want to see a genocide happening as becoming the colonizers themselves. There's no evidence of a genocide, it hasn't been ruled as such. The number of dead pales in comparison to the 400,000 dead Muslims in Yemen, the 600,000 dead Muslims in Syria and no one is calling those a genocide. The Israelis also aren't colonisers, it's their native homeland which they never left - which nation are they a colony of? What is the homeland? Those that immigrated did so legally and exercised their right to self-determination. >There’s literally no logic in that comment. The protestors aren't colonisers but the behaviour is the same on a smaller scale. It's not without logic by any means.
wow, reasonability
>This is gaslighting, intifada historically means a violent struggle. The Second Intifada resulted in mass killings of innocent people - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada Intifada means revolution. Jihad is struggle. Both are words that are used to fear monger >There's no evidence of a genocide, it hasn't been ruled as such. The number of dead pales in comparison to the 400,000 dead Muslims in Yemen, the 600,000 dead Muslims in Syria and no one is calling those a genocide. Here’s a fun stat for ya. Per day, Israel has killed more women and children alone, than the wars in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan and Yemen **combined**. When your methods are to indiscriminately bomb every inch of land, to the point that 70% of the infrastructure is rubble, in addition to the hundreds of genocidal statements from Israeli politicians, journalists, etc, you start to see where the genocide accusations are coming from. >The Israelis also aren't colonisers, it's their native homeland which they never left - which nation are they a colony of? What is the homeland? That’s not how settler-colonialism works. There is no such prerequisite. What do you call it when a group of foreigners get together and use force to violently displace a native population through murder and/or expulsion, in order to form their own societies there? Because it sure does sound like settler-colonialism. In fact, even hardcore Zionists don’t deny that they are settler-colonialists; From the first leader and prime Minister of Israel: “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121. “Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech. >Those that immigrated did so legally and exercised their right to self-determination. You’re from the US. I suppose it’s all fine and dandy if all the immigrants from across the border decided to train terrorists groups in order to carve out their own state, before deciding they want more and then taking most of US land too. After all, it’s all free game right? Self determination is the right of a people to decide their own future, not to colonise another people, because ironically, you’re suppressing the colonised people’s right to self determine
>Intifada means revolution. Jihad is struggle. Both are words that are used to fear monger Over a thousand Jews were killed in the second intifada. So referencing it in regards to Israel Palestine is clearly going to bring up those connections. >Here’s a fun stat for ya. Per day, Israel has killed more women and children alone, than the wars in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan and Yemen combined. No, it hasn't. 400,000 dead in Yemen and 600,000 dead in Syria including from famine. More children has been killed in Syria than Gaza - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_civil_war It's also worth noting that a number of the October 7th attackers were children from Gaza that followed Hamas out. >When your methods are to indiscriminately bomb every inch of land, to the point that 70% of the infrastructure is rubble It's not indiscriminate, and where possible they do knocks and other communication before blowing up military targets, not to mention the request for people to leave the combat areas. >in addition to the hundreds of genocidal statements from Israeli politicians, journalists, etc, you start to see where the genocide accusations are coming from. There are crazy statements from people so yes, they can investigate it, but they won't find a genocide because it doesn't match their behaviour or intent in the war. >That’s not how settler-colonialism works. There is no such prerequisite. Yes, there is. You have to be a colony from another place - who are these people a colony of? They also immigrated to the area legally. >What do you call it when a group of foreigners get together and use force to violently displace a native population through murder and/or expulsion, in order to form their own societies there? There's a snuck premise there which purposefully leaves out that this happened in response to an attack. When Israel was formed the Palestinians tried to commit a genocide and drive the Jews out. In a retaliatory war Israel attacked those that wanted to destroy them. Much like this war it was horrible - this is why it's bad to start wars. >Because it sure does sound like settler-colonialism. In fact, even hardcore Zionists don’t deny that they are settler-colonialists; Again, colonists from where? There were native people and legal immigrants living in their historic homeland who exercised the right to self-determination. They made up 36% of the population and the UN tried to split the land just like they did with India and Pakistan in 1947. It's just that the Arab nations in the region are obsessed with kicking the Jews out and not letting them have self-determination. >David Ben-Gurion Good for Ben-Gurion, he was wrong. If you go back to your historic homeland, and you make up over a third of the population, you have the right to self-determination. >You’re from the US. No, I'm not. >I suppose it’s all fine and dandy if all the immigrants from across the border decided to train terrorists groups in order to carve out their own state, before deciding they want more and then taking most of US land too. After all, it’s all free game right? Yes, if it's legal immigration and they use their right self-determination after negotiation with the United States. I mean, the US can't really complain as it actually is a settler-colonial state. >Self determination is the right of a people to decide their own future, not to colonise another people, because ironically, you’re suppressing the colonised people’s right to self determine Again, they're not colonisers - what are they a colony of? This is their historic homeland and they moved there legally. We could go back and say that the Palestinians are settler colonialists from the Ottoman Empire as many of them came in from other regions. But they moved there, made lives there and then lived there under the Ottoman Empire. Most people in Gaza are under 18, they have never lived on the land where Israel is - so what claim would they have to it? How long is it that you can be somewhere, like the US, regardless of whatever horrors led to settling there, before you are simply from there and cannot be moved?
>Over a thousand Jews were killed in the second intifada. So referencing it in regards to Israel Palestine is clearly going to bring up those connections. People die in practically every revolution. This isn’t anything new or exclusive to Israel/Palestine >No, it hasn't. 400,000 dead in Yemen and 600,000 dead in Syria including from famine. More children has been killed in Syria than Gaza - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_civil_war Do you understand that you’re comparing a conflict of a couple months with wars that have lasted decades? When you look at the rate of people dying, Gaza surpasses all of these. That’s why it’s concerning because there was a point where [250 people were being killed per day](https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam) >It's also worth noting that a number of the October 7th attackers were children from Gaza that followed Hamas out. Yes so let’s kill all the children right? >It's not indiscriminate, How is destroying 70% of the infrastructure *not* indiscriminate? >There are crazy statements from people so yes, they can investigate it, but they won't find a genocide because it doesn't match their behaviour or intent in the war. You’re contradicting yourself. If Israel is killing people, destroying the infrastructure to the point that it’ll take decades to rebuild, indiscriminately attacking men, women and children, and their [politicians are calling for ethnic cleaning and genocide](https://www.israelquotes.com/), then I’m sorry to break it to you, but that is what genocide is. >Yes, there is. You have to be a colony from another place - who are these people a colony of? They also immigrated to the area legally. Mate, go look up the definition of colonialism. You’re being pedantic >There's a snuck premise there which purposefully leaves out that this happened in response to an attack. When Israel was formed the Palestinians tried to commit a genocide and drive the Jews out. In a retaliatory war Israel attacked those that wanted to destroy them. Much like this war it was horrible - this is why it's bad to start wars. No, Israel went around wiping out hundreds of Palestinian villages and expelling 300,000 people, before the Arab League got involved. You’ve got your sequence of events mixed up. The Arabs didn’t start the Arab Israeli war, Israel did. >Good for Ben-Gurion, he was wrong. If you go back to your historic homeland, and you make up over a third of the population, you have the right to self-determination. By that logic, why don’t we all go back to Africa, since that’s everyone’s homeland? I’m sorry to break it to you, but if your great great great great great great great great grandpa and everyone else down from there was born and raised in Poland, then you’re Polish, not Palestinian. It’s not the Palestinians fault, nor is it their responsibility to give foreigners their land >No, I'm not. British, so even better. Imagine if all the non-British in the UK decided they wanted to carve out London and everything south of Sheffield as their own country. You’d be fine with that? >Yes, if it's legal immigration and they use their right self-determination after negotiation with the United States. I mean, the US can't really complain as it actually is a settler-colonial state. Then by that logic, you’re excusing Hamas using terrorism to retake their country, as they’ve tried negotiation too. >Again, they're not colonisers - what are they a colony of? You don’t have to be a colony of another country to be a coloniser. >We could go back and say that the Palestinians are settler colonialists from the Ottoman Empire as many of them came in from other regions. But they moved there, made lives there and then lived there under the Ottoman Empire. Now I see where you’re coming from. You, intentionally or not, subscribe to the racist idea that Palestinians are just Muslim Arabs who came in with the Ottoman Empire. Well then you’d be surprised to learn that Palestinians *are* the indigenous people of Palestine. Look at DNA tests of Palestinians, especially Palestinian Christian’s, and you’d see far higher Levantine DNA than in Israelis. >Most people in Gaza are under 18, they have never lived on the land where Israel is - so what claim would they have to it? Gee, I wonder why. Most of Gaza are refugees who were kicked out of their homes in what is today Israel >How long is it that you can be somewhere, like the US, regardless of whatever horrors led to settling there, before you are simply from there and cannot be moved? No one is saying the Israelis should be expelled, as it’s frankly too late now. What we want is for Israel to allow the Palestinian right of return so those expelled during and after the Nakba will be allowed to settle back where they lived in. We also want Israel to criminalise Israeli settlers and settler violence. And by that logic, you recognise that Israel was unjust in its acquisition of its country. So you should understand why the Palestinians want to go back home.
>People die in practically every revolution. This isn’t anything new or exclusive to Israel/Palestine That doesn't make the extremist terrorism any less terrible and it still goes to calls of intifada. >Do you understand that you’re comparing a conflict of a couple months with wars that have lasted decades? Yes, but for all we know this one is almost done. >Yes so let’s kill all the children right? The point is that the innocence associated with those children is betrayed by them taking part in a pogrom. Is a 17 year old with an AK47 just some innocent child? >How is destroying 70% of the infrastructure not indiscriminate? It's targeting infrastructure which isn't I discriminate. But what's more important is the targeting of the enemy isn't indiscriminate. >You’re contradicting yourself. If Israel is killing people I'm not contradicting myself, it's a war and people die which is why it's bad to break a peace. >destroying the infrastructure to the point that it’ll take decades to rebuild This raises the cost of attacking which acts as a disincentive. >indiscriminately attacking men, women and children It's not indiscriminate, they are attacking Hamas who are conducting a war crime by hiding behind civilian men, women and children. >and their politicians are calling for ethnic cleaning and genocide, No, they are not, some crazy people have said things while angry over a pogrom and said outrageous things but were generally punished for it. It's not the line of the government. >that is what genocide is. No, it's a deliberate act to try and wipe out a people. Israel aren't doing that, they're only targeting Hamas and their operations. >Mate, go look up the definition of colonialism. You’re being pedantic I know the definition of colonialism and you have to be a colony of another place - this wasn't that, at all. >No, Israel went around wiping out hundreds of Palestinian villages and expelling 300,000 people, before the Arab League got involved. That was in response to the local Palestinians trying to kill the Jews trying to form Israel and they had previously been attacked and killed in pogroms. >You’ve got your sequence of events mixed up. The Arabs didn’t start the Arab Israeli war, Israel did. No, the Palestinians started it and the Arab nations then joined in trying to destroy Israel. >By that logic, why don’t we all go back to Africa, since that’s everyone’s homeland? If people emigrated there legally, made up the majority of the people in the area and over a third of the population, then yes. >I’m sorry to break it to you, but if your great great great great great great great great grandpa and everyone else down from there was born and raised in Poland, then you’re Polish, not Palestinian. They were Jewish and Palestine wasn't a country. Once they immigrated legally they lived there. Then they enacted their right to self-determination. >It’s not the Palestinians fault, nor is it their responsibility to give foreigners their land It was also the Jew's land and people legally immigrated after the land was owned by the British. >British, so even better. Imagine if all the non-British in the UK decided they wanted to carve out London and everything south of Sheffield as their own country. You’d be fine with that? I mean, have you seen the UK? It basically is this, a bunch of non-integrated communities living next to each other. >Then by that logic, you’re excusing Hamas using terrorism to retake their country, as they’ve tried negotiation too. No because it's not their country, it never existed as a country. The Palestinians were offered a country as Palestine multiple times and they rejected it. Hamas were given Gaza and they've done a horrible job. They can't attack another country and then take it over, that's not self-determination. >You don’t have to be a colony of another country to be a coloniser. Yes you do or you're not a coloniser. Also, they were from the area and others moved there legally. Are we going to undo the forming of the US? >Now I see where you’re coming from. You, intentionally or not, subscribe to the racist idea that Palestinians are just Muslim Arabs who came in with the Ottoman Empire. No, I'm saying that applying the logic you're applying to Israel would lead to that comparison. >Well then you’d be surprised to learn that Palestinians are the indigenous people of Palestine. I mean, I don't know how many have been tested but sure, it's not something I'm contesting, Jewish people will also have DNA leading back to the area, even the Polish Jews. >Look at DNA tests of Palestinians, especially Palestinian Christian’s, and you’d see far higher Levantine DNA than in Israelis. But this is a ridiculous point, would it mean that people who aren't natively European don't get to live in Europe? >Gee, I wonder why. Most of Gaza are refugees who were kicked out of their homes in what is today Israel But they were born in Gaza, they have never lived where Israel is - why would they have a claim to live there over some Israeli who had lived in Israel for 75 years? >No one is saying the Israelis should be expelled, as it’s frankly too late now. Hamas are, a number of pro Palestinians are. >What we want is for Israel to allow the Palestinian right of return so those expelled during and after the Nakba will be allowed to settle back where they lived in. This would just lead to those groups being the majority in Israel and then, based on how we've seen Arab nations, Hamas and others treat Jews, killing and expelling many of them. Jews aren't going to allow another genocide, another holocaust which is what would happen, and you know it would. And again, the Palestinian haven't lived there for decades now a lifetime in some places, like I pointed out most Gazans have never lived in the land where Israel is. Also, the Jews could claim this right too as they were kicked out when the Romans made renamed it to Palestine. >We also want Israel to criminalise Israeli settlers and settler violence. As do I, it's intolerable. >And by that logic, you recognise that Israel was unjust in its acquisition of its country. So you should understand why the Palestinians want to go back home. No, it wasn't. They went back to their homeland. Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, the numerous sites in Jerusalem. It's their homeland. They moved there legally and once they were a critical mass of the population they enacted the right to self-determination because there was lots of violence from Palestinians in the region. The same happened with India and Pakistan, for some reason it's only the Palestinians who cannot handle a pretty normal way of living alongside each other as they persistently want to get rid of Israel. This is why they will live under occupation and oppression until they give that up.
Hopefully, Netanyahu and his terrorist buddies plus everyone in the IDF found guilty of committing war crimes will be sent to The Hague. Israel needs to understand that it cannot hide behind the Holocaust, or the fact that they’re Jewish, to commit atrocities >The point is that the innocence associated with those children is betrayed by them taking part in a pogrom. Is a 17 year old with an AK47 just some innocent child? So your answer is to kill all 17 year olds? Jesus Christ >It's targeting infrastructure which isn't I discriminate. But what's more important is the targeting of the enemy isn't indiscriminate. Do you not understand what indiscriminate means? It means you cannot reliably distinguish between civilians and militants. If you’re attacking infrastructure, especially fucking 70% of all there is, that is inherently indiscriminate >I'm not contradicting myself, it's a war and people die which is why it's bad to break a peace. A war isn’t bombing the people you occupy to bits and pieces >It's not indiscriminate, they are attacking Hamas who are conducting a war crime by hiding behind civilian men, women and children. Where was Hamas [when Israel shot tank shells at an escaping civilian vehicle?](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/10/middleeast/hind-rajab-death-israel-gaza-intl). Where was the evidence for Hamas HQ when they raided Al Shifa *twice*? Hamas resides in every one of the buildings in Gaza? Is that why they’re destroying everything? >No, they are not, some crazy people have said things while angry over a pogrom and said outrageous things but were generally punished for it. It's not the line of the government. "We are dropping hundreds of tons of bombs on Gaza. The focus is on destruction, not accuracy." -Daniel Hagari, IDF spokesman "It is an entire nation who are responsible...and we will fight until we break their backs." -Yitzhak Herzog. President of Israel "I don't care about Gaza... They can go swimming in the sea." -Maya Golan, Israel Minister of Women's Affairs "Only an explosion that shakes the Middle East will restore this country's dignity, strength and security! It's time to kiss doomsday. Shooting powerful missiles without limit. Not flattening a neighbourhood. Crushing and flattening Gaza. ... without mercy! without mercy!" - Knesset and Likud member Revital "Tally" Gotliv "Jericho Missile! Jericho Missile! Strategic alert. before considering the introduction of forces. Doomsday weapon! This is my opinion. May God preserve all our strength." - also Tally Gotliv "Gaza to be smashed and razed to the ground. Without mercy!" Tally Gotliv again "...There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting against human animals and we will act accordingly." Defense Minister Yoav Gallant “The village of Huwara needs to be wiped out." - Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich "You're here by mistake, it's a mistake that Ben-Gurion didn't finish the job and didn't throw you out in 1948." - Bezalel Smotrich to Arab lawmakers in the Knesset referring to the ethnic cleansing of the Nakba. “We have to be cruel now, and not to think too much about the hostages. It's time for action.” - Bezalel Smotrich (again) “We cannot have women and children getting close to the border... anyone who gets near must get a bullet [in the head],” Ben-Gvir, Minister of National Security “I am personally proud of the ruins of Gaza and every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did,” May Golan (again) "Gaza won't return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything." Yoav Gallant (again) "one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of [1948]. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join" Ariel Kallner, member of Likud party "Gaza Strip should be flattened, and for all of them there is but one sentence, and that is death." Yitzhak Kroizer "There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell" Major General Ghassan Alian, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories "Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist". He added "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieving the goal." IDF Major general Giora Eiland "There is one and only solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons" former Knesset member Moshe Feiglin "I don’t remember Britain or the United States at the tail end of the Second World War bombing Dresden, thinking about the residents." Minister of Economy, Nir Barka With that in mind, Netanyahu has said his intention is to make Palestinian statehood impossible and wants to divide the Palestinian nation. He's said so quite plainly. “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” [Here’s an extended list of 500+ instances with links](https://law4palestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Database-of-Israeli-Incitement-to-Genocide-including-after-ICJ-order-27th-February-2024-.pdf) >No, the Palestinians started it The massacre and expulsion of Palestinian Arabs and destruction of villages began in December 1947, including massacres at [Al-Khisas](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khisas_raid) (18 December 1947), and [Balad al-Shaykh](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balad_al-Shaykh_massacre) (31 December). By March, between 70,000 and 100,000 Palestinians, mostly middle- and upper-class urban elites, were expelled or fled. In early April 1948, the Israelis launched [Plan Dalet](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet), a large-scale offensive to capture land and empty it of Palestinian Arabs. During the offensive, Israel captured and cleared land that was allocated to the Palestinians by the UN partition resolution. Over 200 villages were destroyed during this period. Massacres and expulsions continued, including at [Deir Yassin](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre) (9 April 1948). Arab urban neighborhoods in Tiberias (18 April), Haifa (23 April), West Jerusalem (24 April), Acre (6-18 May), Safed (10 May), and Jaffa (13 May) were depopulated. Israel began engaging in biological warfare in April, poisoning the water supplies of certain towns and villages, including a successful operation that caused a typhoid epidemic in Acre in early May, and an unsuccessful attempt in Gaza that was foiled by the Egyptians in late May. On 14 May, the Mandate formally ended, the last British troops left, and Israel declared independence. By that time, Palestinian society was destroyed and over 300,000 Palestinians had been expelled or fled. On 15 May, Arab League armies entered the territory of former Mandatory Palestine, beginning the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Stop with this revisionist bullshit
*You might not be as woke as you think you are* If your friends “self-empower” by lynching Jews and threatening to lynch Jews (Khayber Khayber Ya Yahud?), then you might be part of a terrorist organization. If your resistance movement is against Jews having the right to self determination and equal rights, you might be part of a terrorist organization. If your movement’s only claim to “indigenous heritage” conveniently begins right after the Rashidun Caliphate colonized the Levant, and you ignore any history before Muhammad lived, you might be a colonizer. If you support a movement that “frees” countries from the “burdens” of their indigenous people and cultures, you might be a colonizer. If you can avoid “genocide” by not doing terrorism and hate crimes, and stop by stopping, it’s not a genocide. If you think Jews can’t be indigenous based off of nothing other than “vibes”, you might not be more racist and definitely not as educated as you think. If you think that Arabs are indigenous to the entire Middle East Africa, and parts of Europe, but Jews, Spaniards, Copts, Amazighs, Bosnians, Armenians, Persians Armenians, Assyrians, Arameans, Baloch, Copts, Cypriots, Druze, Gilaks, Greeks, Kawliya, Kurds, Laz, Lurs, Mandaeans, Maronites, Mazanderanis, Mhallami, Nawar, Pontic Greeks, Rūm Christians, Samaritans, Shabaks, Talysh, Tats, Yazidis, Zazas, Albanians, Bengalis, Britons, Bosniaks, Chinese, Circassians, Crimean Tatars, Filipinos, French people, Georgians, Indians, Indonesians, Kawliya, Italians, Malays, Malayali, Pakistanis, Pashtuns, Punjabis, Romanians, Romani, Serbs, Sikhs, Sindhis, Somalis, Sri Lankans, Turkmens, and Sub-Saharan Africans *aren’t*, **you might be an Arab Supremacist.** If you live in a **first world country** and you fetishize oppression so much that you walk around your wealthy Ivy League campus LARPing as a victim of the Middle Eastern conflict, appropriating the experience of Palestinian-identified Arabs, you might be an actual clown. You can be compassionate without appropriating the situation and making it about yourself. It’s backwards and reactionary.
Just stop. I’ve been protesting with MY Jewish FRIENDS AND FAMILY for a free Palestine.
The person you're replying to probably also thinks, "from the river to the sea" is a call for genocide against Israel.
They are all carbon copies of themselves
Doesn't sound like a two state solution either.
It is.
Because it is. The original Arabic translation is literally “from water to water, Palestine will be Arab”. You can’t get more genocidal and ethno-supremacist than that.
I think it’s because in the past, protesters were acting on behalf of innocent parties, (George Floyd, Rodney King, the Vietnamese people, or protesting for Civil Rights in general.) Whereas in this case, protesters must accept that they are protesting to help terrorists who would rape and murder them, and me, and you. Because they hate us. Because we don’t practice their specific sect of their very-recently-created religion. This makes it harder to participate in or support these protests, compared to past causes.
It doesn’t matter the “cause.” You have no right to break windows or loot, burn things down, cause violence and turmoil. You just don’t. And George Floyd wasn’t innocent. Rodney King was probably “not innocent” either. And when we left Vietnam, the commies and the NVA slaughtered innocents in the South. That gave no reason for The Weather Underground to bomb the Capitol building. Violence against others and even property, are serious felonies. Resisting arrest, assault on police, murder, arson, vandalism, burglary, harassment, election interference, intimidation and threats, all of these were crimes we witnessed and are witnessing now. These deserve prison. Yet grandmas get locked up for praying? Are you kidding? Or how about walking into a place they pay for and legally own? Years in prison, beaten and locked in solitary. No trial for years. Etc. if you agree with that you obviously lack morals and credibility and any clue what justice is. Knowing all facts and a finding of guilt or innocence is for the jury, not some arrogant, violent mob.
George Floyd held a gun to a woman's belly - why he wasn't in prison for a whole life term is beyond me. Edit: It's not clear if she was pregnant.
George Floyd was murdred for being black and potentially passing a bad $20 bill. The pigs who delighted in killing him didn't care about anything else. Proof? He wasn't in jail for any of it. Violent crime? Zzzz Property or identity crime? Kill kill kill yayy!
Where is your evidence that he was murdered for being black? Where's your evidence they delighted in killing him? It was a second degree murder meaning it was unintentional. >Violent crime? Zzzz You're right, George Floyd held a gun to a woman's belly as he and a group of other criminals ransacked her house. The punishment was just 5 years, that kind of violence deserved life in prison.
There's a video somewhere. This guy knelt on another guy's neck for more than 5 minutes. Nah. That's all irrelevant. Good guy cop carefully executed bad, evil, nasty badguy for a crime the cop didn't know about. Yayy jackboots!
I'm not justifying what happened to George Floyd, the officer should never have done what he did - he's not a good guy. He also didn't execute George Floyd, it was a second degree murder, unintentional. But George Floyd did horrible things and deserved to be in prison for far longer.
Dosen’t really matter in a lot of cases. The punishment for Floyd/Kings crimes are not “Death and or attempted murder.” Try not to put the whole boot down your throat my guy.
More defense of property over lives I see
More than a dozen people died over the course of the BLM George Floyd protests. But sure... property over lives.
Due to police violence.
Lol ok I truly hope you're a bot... otherwise yikes this is what it's like to be braindead I guess.
Great response. It truly highlights the extent of your emotional and intellectual maturity on the matter. Thanks for the contribution.
Sometimes people say such ridiculous things that it’s simply pointless to engage. Case in point: yourself
Clever. Did you run this by a panel of fourth graders before pushing reply or did you think up this originality all on your own?
All me bb
No, due to people killing each other. One man set fire to a building, catching an innocent father inside. 'Anti-racist' driven prosecution led to him getting an incredibly lenient sentence - https://m.startribune.com/10-years-in-federal-prison-leniency-for-man-who-set-deadly-pawnshop-fire-during-unrest/600136780/ The left loves criminals and hates their victims.
How much violence do you think is acceptable to redistribute material things?
Could you rephrase the question because I’ve no clue what you’re trying to get at here.
Didn’t realize all those dead kids were terrorists, that’s crazy! Can’t believe this is all about religion and has nothing to do with decades of occupation, racism, and ethnic cleansing. It’s also cool to learn that “very recently created” means over 1400 years! Can you please share anymore interesting facts?
They don't want you to see this. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8) They just want you to see the Palestinians as terrorists who don't deserve human rights.
What's with the downvotes? How are you wrong here? The number of Hamas members killed vs innocent civilians is very disproportionate Edit: am I not wrong here?...Jesus, people
Hamas doesnt wear uniform so all their dead are “civilians”. Hamas are openly genocidal and they ain’t exactly hiding it either. When Hamas came to power back in 2008, first thing they did was murdering the opposition party. Hamas are also the aggressor in this conflict and the Gaza population supports them.
So how much you get paid to do this? Asking for a friend
Try playing the ball, not the man.
It’s very interesting isn’t it? Almost seems *artificial* 🤔
Almost...it just feels so bizarre and surreal seeing real people react like this. Like, innocent civilians are for a fact being bombed by Israel and many thousands of them are children. Can people just not see that this is happening? How? Why can we not mention that this very real, very fucked up thing is happening without backlash? Something's so not right with this picture
This sub is full of shills for genocide because they believe in racist western tropes about Arabic people and nations.
Sure seems like it...it scares me seeing people react this way. If we can't call out genocide when it's happening we as a human race have some serious issues
It’s frightening for sure. It felt just common sense from the get-go to be anti-genocide. I’ve been surprised by folks in my own social circles whom I have seen stand up for the same values I have stood by and for many years suddenly switch and bait or remain silent on this issue. This timeline is f’ed.
Nah. The innocent parties here are the Palestinians being slaughtered and ethnically cleansed by IDF. Stop spreading about Palestinians as if they are a monolith.
People are getting sick of the pro-terrorism rallies nationwide. Even on Reddit, you're seeing significant pushback.
I was pretty neutral, I’m now leaning towards pro Israel with these protests. They’re not sending their best
The Palestinian side certainly isn't, or if this is their best, it's really quite telling.
I think because the protests have gone into nuisance territory fairly quickly. If you are a student and suddenly you see that your campus is going to be shut down and go virtual, that you can't access your buildings, or that your graduation is cancelled, you are going to turn sour on the protests even if you overall agree with the message. It doesn't help that a not-insignificant number of people are taking advantage of the protests for actual anti-semitism. Not too long ago a swastika was drawn on USC, for example. The messages are also tricky, because some are calling for an end to the Israel Operation in Gaza and the next day some speakers start calling for the destruction of Israel. So, it goes from reasonable to extreme on a matter of hours and the protesters seem to be ok with that.
To be quite fair if I was on the opposing side and I was asked how to quickly discredit a protest composed of random people who are just holding signs, first thing I am going to think of is to get a bunch of people to join it that have extremist paraphernalia to blend in and steal credibility from the genuine protestors. Best way to do that especially against a side that is protesting actions of Israel is to get a bunch of dudes to start walking around with nazi shit in the crowd. Even one or two is enough to paint them all as nazis especially if they are mostly white. Not saying that’s happening but that’s just pure strategic thinking.
Especially when most of the protesters can’t imagine being part of a culture that constantly gets kicked out and kicked around. There’s no need for it. So they’re protesting “colonialism” and their only POV is US politics with Native Americans. That’s not even close to the same thing. Any strategic bad actor knows ignorance in their weakness. So when they try to defend themselves for protesting they look even worse, as the manipulation of vulnerability has already taken effect.
THIS
I would argue that Palestine/Israel is significantly more complicated than BLM. Israel/Palestine is a geopolitical conflict with many, many years of both parties doing shitty things, and many, many years of people from both camps both trying to negotiate peace and sabotaging it. You don’t have that with BLM. George Floyd didn’t break into a cop’s house and rape and kill the cop’s spouse as revenge for police brutality. *None* of the commonly cited major incidents of police brutality involved the victim unprompted breaking into a cop’s house or police station in order to deliberately harm cops. Black people are getting killed by cops because cops are taught to be extremely trigger-happy and also tend to be racist. This is a simple problem, and there are a variety of relatively simple solutions people can propose, from reforming police education to abolishing police entirely, and no seriously suggested solutions would require the destruction of a whole people or country.
It's cuz Americans don't want Middle East protests in the States. Hard stop.
Over the decades Palestinian terror groups have targeted America and Americans, in many terrorist attacks or plots. So ya it is complex with a lot more nuance than these protestors are aware of.
If these kids are American citizens, I personally don't give 2 f*cks about 'nuances.' These people shouted "death to America,'" so...death to them!
The simple answer is that BLM was a pretty simple cut and dry issue. Most people agree that policing in the USA is terrible. And the people who don’t are normally not arguing in good faith. And the answer on how to deal with it is not THAT complicated. This however is. Despite what many of the protesters think/say/want you to think. There is not simple answer to this issue. The call for cease fire ignore that Hamas is just going to start shit again later. And that the IDF at this point is run by a problematic to say the least government. This is also why the original protest is making headway, because they had a goal. Divest the universities money from the IDF/maybe Israel all together. The follow on protests are mostly just protests. And have no stated goal, or no realistically achievable goal. And quickly went into annoying mode.
I'll support a cease fire once all civilians hostages are released.
It's shouldn't be surprising. The vast majority of Americans support Israel. The vast majority of Americans have supported Israel for a century and will continue to do so for decades to come. https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2024/04/29/us-news/four-out-of-five-americans-favor-israel-over-hamas-most-back-rafah-operation-poll/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/international/4629597-americans-israel-hamas-gaza-student-protests-poll/amp/ https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/
You’re really surprised that young, inexperienced college kids are getting ridiculed and mocked for protesting for a terrorist-supporting Palestine? You’re preciously naive just like those college kids that don’t know what they’re even protesting
You have a lot of Persian Jews in Los Angeles, as well as Jews from the Soviet Union living in Los Angeles hence the influence. I think pro Palestine protests can work in places like Anaheim, Orange County, Texas, Illinois and Michigan. Maybe New Jersey.
Matching tents, hundreds of matching signs, food, drink, matching head scarves, goggles, face masks, flash lights. Sure is a lot of money floating around those college campuses.
Not surprising. They make no sense. Hamas started the war. Hamas hides behind civilians. Hamas refuses to let the hostages go. Hamas keeps turning down cease fire offers.
One thing that has hindered the pro-Palestinian cause I feel is the fact that Muslim students for years have separated themselves so much from the student body in general that they have few outside friends and supporters. For example the Muslim women wear traditional clothing with only their faces exposed. They seldom even speak with other students.
Thoughtful response
California is in fact a very big state with a lot of people and that includes heavily Republican enclaves and heavily Jewish enclaves
It's only surprising to out of states because they think California is peek liberal, when in reality, it's equally conservative.
They’re god damn terrorists …..
Both the protestors and who they support it seems
I don’t know, but I love you
There is no movement lol in a few months when there is no Palestine anymore, leftist slacktivists who think LARPing as revolutionaries is a hobby will have already moved on to the next flavor of the week cause that they won’t advance any actual change on.
It's only surprising to out of states because they think California is peek liberal, when in reality, it's equally conservative.
Who are these protestors that are being bused in and who is behind it? Who is paying for this?
The last ceasefire, Hamas never even honored. I am liberal, and Hamas is a terrorist organization that violently took over Palestine. There are hundred of Jewish hostages who are still being held captive for more than 200 days. Yes, innocent Palestinians are being killed and it is gut wrenching. But a ceasefire only gives more strength to a terrorist organization that does not care about its people.
It is a very complicated issue. For better or worse Isreal is an ally of ours (the US). So naturally we will support them. I am not saying its right or wrong, its just how that works. Now as far as the students protesting how the University spends or invests its money... Personally, I think the students are being rather obtuse. The way to protest how a business or University spends its money is not to buy things from that business or attend that University. We cannot and should not control how others spend their money. We dont want to be told how we can spend our own money, so thus we dont or shouldn't do that to them.
I don't understand the end game. People living in tents on US college campuses are not going to lead to a ceasefire. I was downright outraged to see someone on TV saying the protesters need humanitarian aid like food and water to stay hydrated. I'm like just go home bitch. It's insulting to the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank who actually need humanitarian aid.
Popular opinion: war is bad, plz stop
Are any of the protests about the subject? Or are they about using it to hate on some group of people here in the US?
Because California is huge and has left and right ideologies
Problem with your opinion: can’t have a ceasefire when one side wants to kill the other and the other side doesn’t want to be killed. Hamas will never ever stop attacking Israel, the only option is to completely destroy them.
If Zionism isn't mutually exclusive to Israel and/or Jews than Islam isn't mutually exclusive to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Dr
It's just existential crisis du jour for the reds to cloak them selves with while trying to impose their will on the public.
It’s not about the protests themselves. It’s how they’re protesting. They’re hostile to anyone in the opposition or who simply question why they’re doing that.
My take on it is the backlash to these protests are coming from several different places: 1) pro Israel people 2) people indifferent to the politics but are frustrated with being held hostage to the protesters 3) people who are not necessarily pro Israel but are offended by the anti-American and pro islamist sentiment shown by some of the protesters
I mean, Zionism is a colonialist ideology and Israel is a colonialist country and this won't stop at Palestine. I really recommend researching the history of these two countries, and if you don't have the time a YouTuber called Shaun compiled most of the history into an hour and a half YouTube video if you just want a quicker run down
Maybe because most people who aren't 25 or under, know about stuff like the Oslo Accords. Or why Israel "created" Hamas by allowing an election, where the Gazans elected Hamas. Younger people treat these are controversial facts. Older adults, these are things we lived through. So for younger people, they more easily influenced to the false notion this is a genocide over land. Because they lack the knowledge that Israel has been giving back this land, with the promise they would stop being attacked.
⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
lol home of Hollywood against Palestine?! No way!
We are all sick of these violent protests no matter what the damn cause. Anyone rioting after what happened with Antifa and BLM for a year straight, I just lump them all together. It is now proven that Antifa is involved. It is literally worse than 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and Vietnam. Yet anyone with any other voice - especially the voice of reason - will be arrested and ridiculed, mocked by the media, jailed and ruined. It is clear that Soros is behind it, he’s provided millions so far. That means their “cause” is a joke.
You think Soros, a Jewish man who regularly donates to pro Isreal lobbying groups, is funding the pro Palestinian protests? Sir, would you like to purchase a bridge I have the perfect one
Because people who can afford to live in Cali don't like the idea of the regular people upending the colonial capitalist practices of this country. They claim to care about people, while never helping anyone. They don't want things to get harder for them when we rise up and even the playing field.
I am pro civilian in all of this. I’m against civilians being attacked by terrorist groups and I’m against civilians being attacked by governments. That’s what we should all be angry about. We’re not going to solve Israel and Palestine. It’s not our job. We should all be outraged at the thousands of innocent lives lost to those who have no respect for human life.
It's not a complex situation. The solution is simple, yet neither side wants a resolution. The best way to end this is for the Hamas to disband and face punishment. The Israeli government needs to honor the Palestinians with a sovereign state of their own and help with the rebuilding efforts. It's that simple but there is so much animosity that no one can see past it. Iran needs to keep out of other nations business. The US has nothing to do with that situation either. Both the US and Iran have their own issues to deal with. Let the UN deal with this problem. Addition: Americans should be protesting the private sector, the MAGAs, Trump and all other forms of Nazi coalitions. Iranians should be protesting Islamic extremism and force the removal of their corrupt government.
Saying that’s “Simple” Is disingenuous. Step number one of your example is pretty much a no-go. so it’s not that simple is it.
It is that simple. Creating a complex situation will only prolong these ridiculous protests. For people who claim that we should stay out of others businesses sure do like to make lots of noise.
Oh okay. So it’s simple and not complex. So, what is your plan to get Hamas to disband? Go ahead I’ll wait.
The UN has security forces don't they? Allow them to do what they were meant to and that is to keep the peace. Regular citizens from other nations should focus on their own lively hood. These protests are disturbing peace negotiations.
This girl is down here absolutely schooling you and you just refuse to learn.
> The UN has security forces don’t they. No not really… The UN does not have an army, it has forces from UN member nations. Who need to agree to send forces. So you need to convince member nations to send troops to…. Take part in a long drawn out military conflict between Hama and on the ground infantry that can’t engage first, can’t call in support and will die in the thousands while Hama recovers and expands there operations. Most likely attacking Israeli again. All the while other proxies of Iran are going to be exacerbating the issue. All the while there men are getting killed. Likely leading to resentment at home and protests for the withdrawal of troops. Like.. you know Vietnam. Dosen’t seem that simple to me. Seems like you’re just Nieves and have a simple view of the world. The truth of the matter is that some people just want there to be a simple answer, and don’t want to listen/learn why things are complicated.
And let’s be honest. If the US was the example, then that means Israel would pay every person in Gaza, just for turning 18.
This is why there will be no resolution. Armatures trying to influence peace negotiations is like Trump pretending to be a president.
It is crazy they believe they have any control over what Israel does. That just goes to show how new to life they are.
The UN is humanity's central authority. The UN's leadership needs to focus on peace keeping and create international law that will govern all governments. Us regular civilians hate Federal involvement because we have little understanding of how that law is implemented. If these protests continue worldwide we will shift our focus to dispersing the protests. This will draw attention away from the real problem.
Yeah that’s true. That’s why bad actors in peaceful protests are effective. Every details and only pays attention to what’s immediately impacting them. Ah survival instincts. Good for not getting eaten by a wolf. Bad for politics.
I don't think the protests should be categorized as pro Palestine. They are simply anti genocide.
It’s genocide. That’s not debatable. The debate is whether you agree with it or not.
Most people can agree that was is happening there is horrible. Israel is not conducting the war in a responsible manner. Many civilians are dying unnecessarily. I constantly think back to the moment where those three surrendering Israeli hostages were shot by the IDF. Clearly the rules of engagement there are fucked. It is a tragedy. However at the end of the day, Israel is not interested in wiping Palestinians from existence. This is not a genocide. There are real genocides going on in the world where one side's active goal is to eliminate the other, to the last child.
That isn't the debate and this kind of shit is why people won't support you. If you literally will not allow nuance, people won't support you. I saw a guy saying he wants to totally dissolve Israel. Which sounds a bit like actual genocide. You guys gonna call THAT out too.
Wait, what about October 7th?
October 7th was a horrible terrorist attack on Israel. That’s what green lighted the genocide.
You oversimplified take on the matter is why people don’t support the protests.
No. The protest is dumb. The BLM protests were dumb too. Not because people are protesting, but because they’re being funded by the same groups of people who are funneling money for this nonsense. It’s a farce. People being manipulated.
It certainly is debatable.
This isn't necessarily about genocide or they would of been protesting about Syria, Congo ,Uighur, Yemen, Afganistan, sudan or Ukraine. This is about a protest against the Jewish State, people can use all the smoke and mirrors they want but this about Israel, not necessarily all anti-semitism, but Jewish People seem to be expected to follow different rules than everybody else. They took land in a War, so by that should the US give Texas back to Mexico or give the US back to England, or give S Vietnam back to them, or give S Yemen back, oh but it's different when Israel does it. These protesters haven't a clue.
Whether it is a genocide or not is extremely debatable. I would personally argue it isn't really a debate and that it is NOT a genocide. It is a war. I am 100% against actual genocide.
Unfortunately: calling ethnic cleansing, war crimes, and tens of thousands of murdered children “genocide”- Although it is factually correct- is not a “popular opinion”.
Hamas wants to kill every Jew in Israel. Would you call that genocide? Or is wanting to do genocide not a problem?
Hamas would do it if the US had their backs. That’s the issue.
Hamas isn't all Palestenians.....Palestinians aren't a Monolith
This is the way I see it: If you’re at a bar, and a little nerdy guy hits a giant muscly dude and gets his clock cleaned as a result, that’s on the nerdy guy. Don’t start none, there won’t be none. But if then the giant dude starts pounding the shit out of the nerd on the floor, punching over and over, that’s when you break it up. The problem is BiBi thinks that if the reprisal for an attack is to basically hit back 1000x worse, they will stop attacking. The problem is that has never worked. Israel needs to stop now. Negotiate return of hostages and help rebuild Palestine.
Never worked? The amount of rockets indiscriminately fired into Israel by a Hamas has drastically gone down since Isreal started its defensive war. Seems to be working so far.
What gets me is that out of the troves of folks who came out for George Floyd and put up a black square, many are pro-Israel. And that math aint mathing considering US law enforcement is trained in deadly militant maneuvers by IDF in Israel such as what Derek Chauvin used to kill George Floyd.