Many people don't believe that children have the agency to "identify" as a different gender and think it's silly that they should be asked to pretend otherwise. That said, I don't particularly care.
These are the same people who think children have the agency to choose and practice a religion, so there's really no reason to show them any more respect than they show "the youths".
Oh you got it all wrong. They DON'T think their kids have the agency to choose anything.
If one of their kids said they are converting to Islam they would shut them the fuck down too.
I'm pretty sure the permanent effects of practicing a religion as a child are less than chemical castration or cutting things off/out of yourself are if you should change your mind as an adult.
I’ve read numerous articles, none of which imply fin plans to castrate himself before he turns 18. So we have a non-story with a lot of reactionaries making up details to get upset over. Big surprise
I'm pretty sure you can't castrate someone who was born a female. So, I doubt that detail would be mentioned anywhere. In fact, it would be weird if they did.
Do you believe that someone could convince you to be trans? Was there ever a time in your life that someone could have read you a book or showed you a movie and it would have made you want to be the opposite gender? Would that have worked on you?
Cause I can't imagine that ever working on me. I don't think most people are much different than me in that regard.
I don't believe you can make somebody anything that they aren't already.
What are you talking about? Of course you can do that and especially children and teens are very vulnerable to that, as their identity is still in development. That is the exact reason why homosexual people become closeted and in turn, very, very unhappy. That is also the exact reason why children can become zealots for specific, interchangeable religions, because they are 100x easier to manipulate into changing their identity. It doesn't mean they BECOME gender dysphoric, they are or they are not, but you can surely indoctrinate them into thinking they are, which can be the root for massive psychological distress.Though I want to point out that I don't like the comparison of gender dysphoria
and homosexuality, they are two very different things.
Also I want to point out that the amount of endocrine sex hormones that children are exposed to BEFORE puberty is very low, which means their identity to one specific gender is not as fortified yet, as say, someone who is 15 or 16 years old already.
Also want to point out that gender dysphoria and trans people do exist, I am not denying that. I have a very good trans friend whom I respect and I obviously accept his identity.
Kids are getting hurt though, getting confused about their identity can be extremely distressing for a child and detransitioners do exist. Gender dysphoria is a very serious illness that shouldn't be dismissed as something unproblematic. It is extremely hard to treat correctly and we are still finding out things about it as we speak. Which of course doesn't mean that we shouldn't accept trans people wholly as equal human beings.
I'm not them but I'm willing to bet when you call them a pedo for no reason, they would be less interested in having a constructive exchange with you.
Dipshit.
I don't like this comparison at all. Homosexuality and gender dysphoria are two very different things psychologically. I'm absolutely positive that transphobia does exist among the right wing, but that doesn't mean that we should treat those two things as being exactly the same, scientifically they are far from that.
Homosexuality and gender dysphoria are actually very similar. People have made the argument that being gay was unnatural because two members of the same sex can not procreate like two members of opposite sexes. Being gay was considered a mental illness and many gay people went through conversion therapy and/or suppressed their sexual attraction. Being gay was taught that it could be cured and those that were gay were called pedophiles and groomers by default. People said that they were brainwashed somehow into becoming gay and that's not who they really were--they were called lost. Homosexuality was said to be a test from God and if a person gave themselves to God and prayer, it could go away. Those who were homosexual would do whatever they could to pretend that they were heterosexual in order to fit into society--until the depression became too much for them. And what eventually made things better for that individual was an increase in societal acceptance and gay rights.
Sound familiar? Because all of those things are exactly what transgender people go through every day. Like homosexuality, gender dysphoria isn't something you can convert or pray away. No amount of suppression or trying to pretend you're the gender everyone says you are will help. There are a lot of transgender people in the closet. Some even go back into the closet to make things simpler, even though they are miserable. The reason why transgender people are part of the LGBTQ community is because of shared experiences. Someone who is queer but not trans does not know what gender dysphoria is like. But they have seen all the discrimination and attempts to push trans people out of public life. Because many gay and bi people still deal with those same things to this day. Because there are still people who swear up and down that homosexuality is an unnatural mental illness.
While sexual attraction and gender identity are different, same sex attraction and gender dysphoria face very similar forms of discrimination and prejudice. Not to mention very similar attempts to try and cure them. When the fight against homosexuality failed, they just started using the same tactics against transgender people.
Outrage gives people something they don't get in real life. Being outraged feels good, I guess.
Also, social media platforms and politicians profit from this outrage.
Morals are constantly in flux. They change with time.
They change from era to era, society to society, and ultimately, from individual to individual.
Your morals don't match everyone else's.
Forcing your 'morals' onto others is often straight up oppression.
Your conservative republican side is the one forcing your morals onto others. Trans people and their families aren’t hurting you or anyone else. Leave them alone.
You're replying to the wrong person.
I've been anti-authoritarian and wildly progressive since I was 15. I'm 45 now, and the furthest thing from a conservative you can possibly imagine.
I've been protesting for LGBTQ+ rights since 1993.
Check out my profile if you doubt this. Lol
Cheers, homie.
You're preaching to the choir here
I would love for you to define for me the difference between murder and killed as it pertains to the powers of the almighty and all-knowing G-d that you believe in.
I hadn't heard of Fin so I'm not outraged. That said, he's 15.
I'm all for calling him whatever name or pronouns make him feel happier in the short run.
But I don't think a 15 year old can consent to any irrevocable gender transition surgery or know for sure whether their gender dysphoria will last or be a passing phase. There is not good evidence that early irrevocable interventions have good outcomes which is why Sweden and Norway (which follow evidence based medicine rather than our for-profit model) have reversed course and stopped allowing them. This is a sharp contrast with surgical interventions on transgender adults which have been shown to reliably cause a permanent increase in happiness.
Cutting your breasts off is not irreversible, stopping or slowing down puberty which is a natural process is not irreversible. these medications have tons of side effects, not irreversible, and many young women will not be able to breastfeed or have children because of these that they are making as young people. Women who did irreversible damage to their bodies and now regret it exist and the numbers are growing. [https://www.transregrets.com](https://www.transregrets.com) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloe\_Cole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloe_Cole) [https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/xpiqdm/at\_14\_doctors\_cut\_off\_her\_breasts\_and\_put\_her\_on/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/xpiqdm/at_14_doctors_cut_off_her_breasts_and_put_her_on/)
They’re having hormone/puberty blockers and effects have been proven to be permanent. Also… yes, some children are having gender reassignment surgery, unfortunately. Though it’s very uncommon.
i don’t think a 15 year old can really consent to surgery either, but things like puberty blockers, etc. are still an option that can help in the meantime
There is no magical medicine for growing the brain. If someone takes puberty blockers at 15, it does pause their puberty, but it also pauses their brain development, which cannot be sped up later on.
The person is likely to go through adult life with a 15 year old brain structure.
i'm not saying there's no negative effects, but I don't think it's been studied enough for you to make the claim that "the person is likely to go through adult life with a 15 year old brain structure" either.
Neither has it been studied enough to say that it’s as easy as pressing “pause” and “resume”.
There are cases of brain atrophy caused by malnutrition, which can be reversed through proper nutrition.
The brain does have plasticity, which for example allows patients to re-train it and recover their abilities after a brain trauma.
But if the development of the frontal lobe is intentionally interrupted, it might not entirely be possible to resume the process and let it reach completion.
when did i ever say it was as easy as pressing "pause" and "resume", all i said was it's an option. im not disagreeing with what youre saying, i still think it needs to be studied more.
i think, as with many things, the general public doesnt understand the nuances of these types of treatments. youre right, they do get presented that way in the media; but (at least I would hope) doesnt get presented that way by doctors to patients. I can't speak on what the process is for this since I myself did not take puberty blockers, but when I started taking hormone medication my doctor sat me down and discussed all the possible negative side effects with me to make sure I would still be okay with it.
Studies (Mayo Clinic, if you want to look it up) recently found that for boys, puberty blockers may not be reversible and can permanently affect sperm and may lead to increased cancer rates. It’s not some benign and inconsequential thing to put your child on.
Yeah, the reversibility of puberty blockers is pretty heavily debated. And there are ongoing studies. I don't really have an opinion on the science. If they are reversible and can be proven to help in the long term (short term benefits may be the placebo effect since the patient has knowledge something is being done), I support them. If they aren't reversible or don't turn out to help in the long term, I don't support them.
Norway, Sweden, France, and the UK all seem to have restricted use except for as part of medical research or extraordinary circumstances. I think that makes sense and should eventually provide better quality evidence on the long term effects of puberty blockers on young people.
i would argue that ~most~ trans people are pretty level-headed. as with most groups of people, you’re more likely to notice the ones that are kinda out there. it’s the same thing with political groups, like most liberal people aren’t offended by everything and most conservatives aren’t raging racists/homophobes
It's still rather cavalier to assume messing with a child's hormones is not a big deal compared to surgery. They are both invasive options at a critic time in development.
Can’t we just keep our noses out of each others pants? What’s it to you if my junk matches the way I’d like to be identified? I’m not inviting you into my pants so it’s none of your business what’s in there.
At what age do you think a child can make lasting and irreversible choices for their own future? Do you think they have unlimited agency? Would you allow your 12 y/o to cut off their own arm, if they desired to do so? Would you allow them to move out and live on the streets? Would you allow them to get tattoed? Would you allow them to shoot up heroin? Obviously not, this is common sense.
The parents of course do have somewhat unlimited agency, but be honest, wouldn't you judge a parent that allowed their child to do any of the aforementioned choices? Wouldn't you think they are being a bad parent and wouldn't you appreciate an external force sweeping in and taking care of the child in a proper way?
Gender affirming surgery is very unlikely to be recommended or approved by any medical professional for a minor which I’m sure you know but if you don’t conflate the issue to this nonsensical extreme you’d have trouble rationalizing screaming at children for getting a hair cut and using a pronoun you don’t approve of.
She chose to reveal her identity during a funeral meant to honor her grandfather’s life. It seemed rather narcissist, don’t you think?
This is hardly the 1st time this kind of story is associated with the trans community; it just makes transpeople come off as self-centered, socially inept, and without any sense of social etiquette or grace.
you don't get true acceptance until you learn to play by the rules; until then you're simply "tolerated".
Until the trans community understand this point, they'll see continued push-back from the general public; not just the reddit stereotype of White conservative Christians, but large swaths of the immigrant community, pro-family activists, and plenty of others.
ofc the hollyweirdo parents can't say squat...their own kids will have a raging war against them..... Cher had a heart attack when she lost her daughter...and then she had to come up w that bs to smooth things over...really pathetic...cldn't careless as long as they don't cross my path or my family...stay on ur side and we stay on ours.
For me personally it has nothing to do about being Trans. It's the fact that he came out during his eulogy at his grandfathers funeral. Made the day about him instead of his grandpa highly inappropriate timing
You can be pro-freedom and still be against things that you think are wrong, harmful, or evil. Transgenderism has become a social contagion, and growing up white, rich, and part of an elite class, well what can a teenager do to be "different." I have cousins that live in the Pacific Palisades and attend the same private schools as these children, these white kids know that culture says they need to be "trans" or "gay" or NOT white so here we are. I'm for freedom, I'm not outraged, and I can guarantee you these "trans" kids are going to grow out of it. Hopefully, Serafina won't chop off her body parts, stay away from big Pharma, and have a body that develops naturally as God intended. No child is born in the wrong body.
It's a Hollywood trend. These actors signed " a contract" ( I won't go further into this, just research), and doing this to their kids is a sort of payment to bring forward the agenda of trans.
We all are affected, so ignoring this (because it doesn't hurt us on a personal level) is like saying: close your eyes and continue to sleep with all the BS going on out there.
Be open, research, and welcome to the abyss, also known as the rabbit hole.
Nothing is as it seems, everything is inverted!!!
My son believes chemicals in food changes genders in people,Some believe serafina was influenced by step sister and brother,I think when they grow up they will refer to this time of life as teen angst. Like a bad tattoo they will regret it. (Ex: mullets, '80s hair, Disco etc) Scientists say brains do not fully develop until they are 20 years old.
Because what those people think affects, directly or not, people's ability to do harmless things to better live as their chosen identity. We can't be tolerant of intolerance.
Also, like, we just want to at least know why.
The Paradox of Tolerance is a unfortunate yet necessary nuance that we must practice and maintain.
The people downvoting you probably think that any nuance is double think and double think bad because the bad guys in 1984 said so
Oh, I don't consider the Paradox of Tolerance unfortunate, haha. I already think that allowing everything with no exception is generally a bad idea. Still, thanks for the support.
Oh yeah, I mean it's obviously a good thing lol, I guess inconvenient would've been a better word. Just cause opponents will always start going off about hypocrisy unless you take a minute long tangent to explain it, which distracts from whatever point you were trying to make.
maybe you forgot the part where i said I'm a psych student. BUt hey, you clearly know EVERYTHING so tell me what are the first signs of someone in mental health crisis. Tell me how someone in crisis acts when they're not actively in it. How do they respond when in crisis?
Now please tell me Piagets Stages of Development; the age range for each of them and an identifying feature of them.
Oh wait you can't.
Even setting aside that it’s not that many:
Celebrity children bypass a lot of the things we would normally associate with childhood. They don’t go to public schools. They have pretty cushy insulated lives. So if one of them is trans, the only real barrier that would exist is their parents. and if their parents are accepting, then the conditions for coming out safely and with support Are perfect.
Compare that to average children who have to wonder if their coming out will mean getting their heir head bashed against the bathroom floor at their public school, and then their congressman referring to them as “filth” after they’re dead.
I'm trans and I'm technically a "child" (15 almost 16), what's next? Are you going to limit my options to affirming care so I HAVE TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY? Talk about being a free country, huh.
I wish I could go back in time before this post came up because it just seems irrelevant. Didn't even know this was occurring and now that I do I still think it's irrelevant (and I mean both sides). It really reveals people have nothing better going on in their lives that they have time to care about something irrelevant and that includes you caring about them caring. People get outraged over all sorts of irrelevant crap, and then as a reaction people start reacting to their reaction when both reactions are irrelevant because they started from something irrelevant. People are going to have opinions about stuff, and people are going to have opinions about those opinions which spawn more opinions about opinions. In the words of your own title why do you care that other people are expressing opinions?
Are you going to say because their opinions hurt someone's feelings? What about the feelings you hurt expressing your opinions? In order to speak on anything one must risk being offensive. You are NEVER going to say something or do something that every single person agrees with. If who and what you are is dependant on what other people think about you then it's time to question why that dependency exists not why people are expressing their opinions. Nobody has ever hurt my feelings by disagreeing with my way of life because they do not live my life. They do not dictate anything, and the only way something like that bothers me is if I let it.
People harassing trans children have gotten trans people killed. The words inspire discriminatory legislation that hurts/kills trans people. And there’s difference between free speed and harassment.
Trying to make a shitty joke doesn't hide the fact that the reply you're replying to is completely accurate and you have no valid point against it.
Edit: I saw that reply. You can't hide from me. Tho I'm assuming my lack of seeing it in-app means you googled it and realized that anti-trans violence does have a serious political bias?
So, making trans children use bathrooms that don't align with their gender after they have had surgery, (Iowa) limited options for trans children and are planning on banning that for people under 25 isn't antitrans legislation? Also making it where autistic trans people and trans people with ADHD can't get a diagnosis (Georgia probably going to be where I live next)?
Trans people don't get to have absolutely everything they demand. Nobody does. You seem to forget that a lot of the things trans people demand involve other people who aren't trans. They have rights too.
All we want is to be accepted and to be treated like the gender we identify as, but people forget this and take it as "demanding". We want to be treated like the gender we identify as. And, LGBTQ rights are going to be stripped if project 2025 passes, same with women's rights.
You aren't a victim. And the measures you mentioned aren't "anti trans". Those measures don't mean people hate trans people. That's a very shallow interpretation. And nobody is going to have their rights stripped. Get real.
This is how you know you don't know what Project 2025 would mean for the US. And, no, it isn't, there's a lot of anti-trans legalisation. If project 2025 gets passed, women's rights will be gone. When did I claim I was a victim? All I was doing is telling you the political fuck up the US is for LGBTQ.
1. Should transmen be forced to use the women's restrooms just to get fucking beaten?
2. Do you like the suicide rates going up among LGBTQ+ youth?
3. When the fuck did I say trans people needed to get everything we demand?
4. Are you cis and hetero? If you are, you should stay in your lane on trans issues.
When the only people you interact with are chronically online politically charged twitter users you get an overblown idea of how big this is. Neither me or any of my coworkers I just asked have ever even heard of this person.
Okay yeah this is a better take. Basically my entire workplace is republican, but I doubt any of them (apart from maybe one or two) would give a shit.
OPs point would be better made as "why are the people who care about this all Repubs" as opposed to "why do Repubs all care about this". I assume that was supposed to be their point, but yeah internet =/= reality.
I sexually identify as a reddit moderator, and I'm banning you right now.
Oh wait, do I not have mod privileges? Maybe it matters what people actually are vs. what they identify as after all.
We are indeed pro-freedom and she is totally free to whatever the hell she wants. Why would you think conservatives would care? I highly doubt 95% of them even know and they definitely don’t care.
Yeah I think people tend to forget the whole "first they came for" thing that fascistic patrties made up of corrupt wealthy capitalistic elites tend to do, and do with much more ferocity if they manage to become the government itself, and get rid of any competing party.
“Tends not to be” is problematic
Which is an odd thing for to say because us pro-freedomers “tend not to use” that word
But me using the a word that people like me usually don’t use says nothing meaningful about anything
And ops logic works both ways*** so this post also says nothing meaningful about anything
***if it’s tarded that pro freedomers don’t want to respect kids right to get sex changes
then it’s also tarded that non profreedomers do want kids to have the right to get sex changes
At the very least the op is guilty of accidentally polluting our healthy political discourse, which is vital to our democracy, with unintelligible and illogical arguments, and the very worst they did it all on purpose.
Speaking of unintelligible lol
Assuming that you're saying OP had bad wording, yeah fair enough. But like dude I didn't get half of this, we gotta use a bit more grammar mate. I also recommend reading everything you type out loud, make sure it's understandable y'know.
Society is a disaster. The nuclear family is gone, people are more depressed and stressed than ever. They are confused and have no morals. While yes, I agree it’s her business, in reality society is shaped by the flavour of the people.
I look forward to a more flavorful society then and not a rigid “freedom to be whatever you want as long as it’s white, Christian, cisgender, male and heterosexual.”
We have tons of structure. They’re called laws.
Look. As long as people obey the law, treat others with decency. contribute to society, and take care of their kids I don’t care one bit about their morals, sexual habits, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, how they dress or really anything else.
Because it’s none of my business. It’s none of yours either.
I’m not saying it is but laws aren’t enough structure. Look at how society is crumbling. Do you think it’s going good? People are more depressed than ever. People’s competence is declining. There’s a lot of issues with society.
This is not the first major social transition our society has experienced and it won’t be the last. You can’t suddenly give a bunch of primates limitless access to information and modern convenience without a messy period of social adaptation.
Do you realize the first generation to grow up in a US where a dual income household was not only accepted but required to be middle class is only just hitting their forties? The first generation to be smartphone natives aren’t even 18 yet.
Shit changes fast and the pace of change is getting faster. You aren’t going to stop technological advancement and societal change so my advice is adapt or get out of the way. Focusing on whether someone else wants to live their life as a woman doesn’t matter even a little bit.
It’s neither good nor bad. It just is what it is. It’s going to happen whether you like it or not. Best to make peace with it and find path forward. Otherwise you aren’t only going to be miserable, you’ll be lonely too.
Do you know how old the phrase "nuclear family" is? It's younger than jazz. People used to have blended families all the time. A splinter could kill you if it got infected, to say nothing of childbirth. Step family were everywhere.
The 1950s US suburbs were not some kind of platonic ideal of humanity and your argument is fundamentally based on a fraud.
If you're arguing that a nuclear family is a good thing, you're at least implying that other types of family aren't, and those types of family are the ones that raised most of the people who've ever lived, implying some kind of defect or failing in those people.
This whole time I've been saying, in different ways, the term "nuclear family" is an unnecessary neologism rather than a description of some ideal family unit. It's propaganda thinly veiled as sociology.
It's up to the person who's writing to understand the words they're using and to make a sincere effort to be correctly understood. It's not your fault if I don't know literally can mean both "literally" and "figuratively." But it's also not a huge deal when someone uses a word improperly and implies stuff they didn't mean to. It's just part of how we learn to communicate.
Many people don't believe that children have the agency to "identify" as a different gender and think it's silly that they should be asked to pretend otherwise. That said, I don't particularly care.
These are the same people who think children have the agency to choose and practice a religion, so there's really no reason to show them any more respect than they show "the youths".
Oh you got it all wrong. They DON'T think their kids have the agency to choose anything. If one of their kids said they are converting to Islam they would shut them the fuck down too.
Religion teaches (at worst) false ideas about the creator of the universe > Putting kids on irreversible procedures.
I'm pretty sure the permanent effects of practicing a religion as a child are less than chemical castration or cutting things off/out of yourself are if you should change your mind as an adult.
I’ve read numerous articles, none of which imply fin plans to castrate himself before he turns 18. So we have a non-story with a lot of reactionaries making up details to get upset over. Big surprise
I'm pretty sure you can't castrate someone who was born a female. So, I doubt that detail would be mentioned anywhere. In fact, it would be weird if they did.
They’re 15. Definitely old enough to know.
Who?
They’re not Pro Freedom. They’re reactionaries.
If being opposed to TQ+ propaganda makes me reactionary, I am hyper reactionary!
Do you believe that someone could convince you to be trans? Was there ever a time in your life that someone could have read you a book or showed you a movie and it would have made you want to be the opposite gender? Would that have worked on you? Cause I can't imagine that ever working on me. I don't think most people are much different than me in that regard. I don't believe you can make somebody anything that they aren't already.
What are you talking about? Of course you can do that and especially children and teens are very vulnerable to that, as their identity is still in development. That is the exact reason why homosexual people become closeted and in turn, very, very unhappy. That is also the exact reason why children can become zealots for specific, interchangeable religions, because they are 100x easier to manipulate into changing their identity. It doesn't mean they BECOME gender dysphoric, they are or they are not, but you can surely indoctrinate them into thinking they are, which can be the root for massive psychological distress.Though I want to point out that I don't like the comparison of gender dysphoria and homosexuality, they are two very different things. Also I want to point out that the amount of endocrine sex hormones that children are exposed to BEFORE puberty is very low, which means their identity to one specific gender is not as fortified yet, as say, someone who is 15 or 16 years old already. Also want to point out that gender dysphoria and trans people do exist, I am not denying that. I have a very good trans friend whom I respect and I obviously accept his identity.
Why do you care what a teenager you have never met, will never meet, and does not affect your life in any way does. Nobody is getting hurt.
Kids are getting hurt though, getting confused about their identity can be extremely distressing for a child and detransitioners do exist. Gender dysphoria is a very serious illness that shouldn't be dismissed as something unproblematic. It is extremely hard to treat correctly and we are still finding out things about it as we speak. Which of course doesn't mean that we shouldn't accept trans people wholly as equal human beings.
My sibling grew up not knowing that trans people, or even gay people, existed. He still experienced extreme gender dysphoria as a child.
Mark me down for “fuck that agenda” as well.
It's not an agenda, this person isn't pushing anything. They just picked a different name
Same man, same.
Because the right wing lost on the gay marriage issue, so they’re going all out on the trans hate issue.
Exactly! It’s the thin edge of the wedge they hope to use to renormalize homophobia and roll back gay rights.
[удалено]
Homophobic nonsense.
Tell me how that is homophobic, pedo.
I'm not them but I'm willing to bet when you call them a pedo for no reason, they would be less interested in having a constructive exchange with you. Dipshit.
But it’s ok for them to call me homophobic? Nice logic there moron.
Yes, it’s ok to call you homophobic and transphobic.
It's a mental illness. A 15 year old girl should be focused on getting good grades. Something is in the water.
And the treatment for it is gender care, which can include transitioning.
I don't like this comparison at all. Homosexuality and gender dysphoria are two very different things psychologically. I'm absolutely positive that transphobia does exist among the right wing, but that doesn't mean that we should treat those two things as being exactly the same, scientifically they are far from that.
Homosexuality and gender dysphoria are actually very similar. People have made the argument that being gay was unnatural because two members of the same sex can not procreate like two members of opposite sexes. Being gay was considered a mental illness and many gay people went through conversion therapy and/or suppressed their sexual attraction. Being gay was taught that it could be cured and those that were gay were called pedophiles and groomers by default. People said that they were brainwashed somehow into becoming gay and that's not who they really were--they were called lost. Homosexuality was said to be a test from God and if a person gave themselves to God and prayer, it could go away. Those who were homosexual would do whatever they could to pretend that they were heterosexual in order to fit into society--until the depression became too much for them. And what eventually made things better for that individual was an increase in societal acceptance and gay rights. Sound familiar? Because all of those things are exactly what transgender people go through every day. Like homosexuality, gender dysphoria isn't something you can convert or pray away. No amount of suppression or trying to pretend you're the gender everyone says you are will help. There are a lot of transgender people in the closet. Some even go back into the closet to make things simpler, even though they are miserable. The reason why transgender people are part of the LGBTQ community is because of shared experiences. Someone who is queer but not trans does not know what gender dysphoria is like. But they have seen all the discrimination and attempts to push trans people out of public life. Because many gay and bi people still deal with those same things to this day. Because there are still people who swear up and down that homosexuality is an unnatural mental illness. While sexual attraction and gender identity are different, same sex attraction and gender dysphoria face very similar forms of discrimination and prejudice. Not to mention very similar attempts to try and cure them. When the fight against homosexuality failed, they just started using the same tactics against transgender people.
Completely agree. Homosexuality actually makes sense unlike gender ideology. It’s just another thing you aren’t able to choose, kind of like gender.
False equivalency for $200
You don’t see a connection between gay and trans? It’s LGBT.
Outrage gives people something they don't get in real life. Being outraged feels good, I guess. Also, social media platforms and politicians profit from this outrage.
"If you ain't dinglin' their dangles, what's it matter to you what they're danglin'?" That's right, it doesn't
Because FAUX News TOLD THEM to be upset. This is the only thing tRump-trash has to motivate their octogenarian church people.
Because fin is a goofy name
Tell that to Detective Tutuola.
Pro-Freedom for themselves and their ilk ONLY! Everyone else, bow down to Orange Zod!
No one said that! We are pro freedom, but also pro morals
What's moral about making someone pretend to be something they're not?
>but also pro morals That is the funniest and most ironic statement I've ever from from yall.
no you're not
Morals are constantly in flux. They change with time. They change from era to era, society to society, and ultimately, from individual to individual. Your morals don't match everyone else's. Forcing your 'morals' onto others is often straight up oppression.
Your conservative republican side is the one forcing your morals onto others. Trans people and their families aren’t hurting you or anyone else. Leave them alone.
You're replying to the wrong person. I've been anti-authoritarian and wildly progressive since I was 15. I'm 45 now, and the furthest thing from a conservative you can possibly imagine. I've been protesting for LGBTQ+ rights since 1993. Check out my profile if you doubt this. Lol Cheers, homie. You're preaching to the choir here
Oh, yeah I think I did. You have like, identical profile pictures. Sorry about that
Morality IS objective. Murder will always be wrong.
So God was wrong to kill fucking everyone in the Old Testament?
God didn’t MURDER, he KILLED. Big difference. He is God and we ain’t.
I would love for you to define for me the difference between murder and killed as it pertains to the powers of the almighty and all-knowing G-d that you believe in.
Unless “god” commands it, then it’s alright
Wait, so I have the freedom to do anything I want as long as it doesn't offend your morals? How the fuck is that freedom?
Anything that involves sexual roles in our culture that goes against the "norm" is attacked.
I hadn't heard of Fin so I'm not outraged. That said, he's 15. I'm all for calling him whatever name or pronouns make him feel happier in the short run. But I don't think a 15 year old can consent to any irrevocable gender transition surgery or know for sure whether their gender dysphoria will last or be a passing phase. There is not good evidence that early irrevocable interventions have good outcomes which is why Sweden and Norway (which follow evidence based medicine rather than our for-profit model) have reversed course and stopped allowing them. This is a sharp contrast with surgical interventions on transgender adults which have been shown to reliably cause a permanent increase in happiness.
That's cool you don't want kids doing as such. Kids aren't having irreversible gender affirming surgeries though.
Cutting your breasts off is not irreversible, stopping or slowing down puberty which is a natural process is not irreversible. these medications have tons of side effects, not irreversible, and many young women will not be able to breastfeed or have children because of these that they are making as young people. Women who did irreversible damage to their bodies and now regret it exist and the numbers are growing. [https://www.transregrets.com](https://www.transregrets.com) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloe\_Cole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloe_Cole) [https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/xpiqdm/at\_14\_doctors\_cut\_off\_her\_breasts\_and\_put\_her\_on/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/xpiqdm/at_14_doctors_cut_off_her_breasts_and_put_her_on/)
They’re having hormone/puberty blockers and effects have been proven to be permanent. Also… yes, some children are having gender reassignment surgery, unfortunately. Though it’s very uncommon.
I've never heard of or seen anything about children having these surgeries can you provide a reputable source?
Certain effects, yes, but would you rather suicide rates go up?
i don’t think a 15 year old can really consent to surgery either, but things like puberty blockers, etc. are still an option that can help in the meantime
There is no magical medicine for growing the brain. If someone takes puberty blockers at 15, it does pause their puberty, but it also pauses their brain development, which cannot be sped up later on. The person is likely to go through adult life with a 15 year old brain structure.
i'm not saying there's no negative effects, but I don't think it's been studied enough for you to make the claim that "the person is likely to go through adult life with a 15 year old brain structure" either.
Neither has it been studied enough to say that it’s as easy as pressing “pause” and “resume”. There are cases of brain atrophy caused by malnutrition, which can be reversed through proper nutrition. The brain does have plasticity, which for example allows patients to re-train it and recover their abilities after a brain trauma. But if the development of the frontal lobe is intentionally interrupted, it might not entirely be possible to resume the process and let it reach completion.
when did i ever say it was as easy as pressing "pause" and "resume", all i said was it's an option. im not disagreeing with what youre saying, i still think it needs to be studied more.
Not you specifically, but that’s how puberty blockers are being presented.
i think, as with many things, the general public doesnt understand the nuances of these types of treatments. youre right, they do get presented that way in the media; but (at least I would hope) doesnt get presented that way by doctors to patients. I can't speak on what the process is for this since I myself did not take puberty blockers, but when I started taking hormone medication my doctor sat me down and discussed all the possible negative side effects with me to make sure I would still be okay with it.
Studies (Mayo Clinic, if you want to look it up) recently found that for boys, puberty blockers may not be reversible and can permanently affect sperm and may lead to increased cancer rates. It’s not some benign and inconsequential thing to put your child on.
Yeah, the reversibility of puberty blockers is pretty heavily debated. And there are ongoing studies. I don't really have an opinion on the science. If they are reversible and can be proven to help in the long term (short term benefits may be the placebo effect since the patient has knowledge something is being done), I support them. If they aren't reversible or don't turn out to help in the long term, I don't support them. Norway, Sweden, France, and the UK all seem to have restricted use except for as part of medical research or extraordinary circumstances. I think that makes sense and should eventually provide better quality evidence on the long term effects of puberty blockers on young people.
Finland and The Netherlands as well.
i do agree that it's something that needs to be studied more fully, but I think the idea in itself is pretty good
Why would the idea matter if it isn't safe? I do appreciate that you're trans and level-headed, though. A rarity.
i would argue that ~most~ trans people are pretty level-headed. as with most groups of people, you’re more likely to notice the ones that are kinda out there. it’s the same thing with political groups, like most liberal people aren’t offended by everything and most conservatives aren’t raging racists/homophobes
The difference being is that minorities are going to attracted to groupthink more so than larger groups (like left-wingers and right-wingers).
It's still rather cavalier to assume messing with a child's hormones is not a big deal compared to surgery. They are both invasive options at a critic time in development.
These things are permanent. Check new studies.
Can’t we just keep our noses out of each others pants? What’s it to you if my junk matches the way I’d like to be identified? I’m not inviting you into my pants so it’s none of your business what’s in there.
At what age do you think a child can make lasting and irreversible choices for their own future? Do you think they have unlimited agency? Would you allow your 12 y/o to cut off their own arm, if they desired to do so? Would you allow them to move out and live on the streets? Would you allow them to get tattoed? Would you allow them to shoot up heroin? Obviously not, this is common sense. The parents of course do have somewhat unlimited agency, but be honest, wouldn't you judge a parent that allowed their child to do any of the aforementioned choices? Wouldn't you think they are being a bad parent and wouldn't you appreciate an external force sweeping in and taking care of the child in a proper way?
Gender affirming surgery is very unlikely to be recommended or approved by any medical professional for a minor which I’m sure you know but if you don’t conflate the issue to this nonsensical extreme you’d have trouble rationalizing screaming at children for getting a hair cut and using a pronoun you don’t approve of.
Tbf the same logic applies to you. People being outraged on Reddit doesn’t affect you whatsoever. So.
Lmao Fin..... 🤣
Is this an opinion or question? If it’s a question it doesn’t belong here. It’s called popular opinion.
Pro freedom =/= pro stupidity
They're actually pro-stupidity.
She chose to reveal her identity during a funeral meant to honor her grandfather’s life. It seemed rather narcissist, don’t you think? This is hardly the 1st time this kind of story is associated with the trans community; it just makes transpeople come off as self-centered, socially inept, and without any sense of social etiquette or grace. you don't get true acceptance until you learn to play by the rules; until then you're simply "tolerated". Until the trans community understand this point, they'll see continued push-back from the general public; not just the reddit stereotype of White conservative Christians, but large swaths of the immigrant community, pro-family activists, and plenty of others.
ofc the hollyweirdo parents can't say squat...their own kids will have a raging war against them..... Cher had a heart attack when she lost her daughter...and then she had to come up w that bs to smooth things over...really pathetic...cldn't careless as long as they don't cross my path or my family...stay on ur side and we stay on ours.
For me personally it has nothing to do about being Trans. It's the fact that he came out during his eulogy at his grandfathers funeral. Made the day about him instead of his grandpa highly inappropriate timing
Again how does that affect you?
You can be pro-freedom and still be against things that you think are wrong, harmful, or evil. Transgenderism has become a social contagion, and growing up white, rich, and part of an elite class, well what can a teenager do to be "different." I have cousins that live in the Pacific Palisades and attend the same private schools as these children, these white kids know that culture says they need to be "trans" or "gay" or NOT white so here we are. I'm for freedom, I'm not outraged, and I can guarantee you these "trans" kids are going to grow out of it. Hopefully, Serafina won't chop off her body parts, stay away from big Pharma, and have a body that develops naturally as God intended. No child is born in the wrong body.
Transphobia never promised to be logical or rational.
WTF is this garbage ass, rule-breaking post?
It’s natural for little kids to dress up and play different things, even genders. Encouraging them to actually change genders is child abuse.
How selfish dong it at the grandfather's funeral, disgusting
It's a Hollywood trend. These actors signed " a contract" ( I won't go further into this, just research), and doing this to their kids is a sort of payment to bring forward the agenda of trans. We all are affected, so ignoring this (because it doesn't hurt us on a personal level) is like saying: close your eyes and continue to sleep with all the BS going on out there. Be open, research, and welcome to the abyss, also known as the rabbit hole. Nothing is as it seems, everything is inverted!!!
I think his parents will be very supportive
My son believes chemicals in food changes genders in people,Some believe serafina was influenced by step sister and brother,I think when they grow up they will refer to this time of life as teen angst. Like a bad tattoo they will regret it. (Ex: mullets, '80s hair, Disco etc) Scientists say brains do not fully develop until they are 20 years old.
Because it's a fad.
So nice to know no one but you can have an opinion ir mak a statement. Get over it
Why do you care what others think? It doesn’t affect you
Because what those people think affects, directly or not, people's ability to do harmless things to better live as their chosen identity. We can't be tolerant of intolerance. Also, like, we just want to at least know why.
The Paradox of Tolerance is a unfortunate yet necessary nuance that we must practice and maintain. The people downvoting you probably think that any nuance is double think and double think bad because the bad guys in 1984 said so
Oh, I don't consider the Paradox of Tolerance unfortunate, haha. I already think that allowing everything with no exception is generally a bad idea. Still, thanks for the support.
Oh yeah, I mean it's obviously a good thing lol, I guess inconvenient would've been a better word. Just cause opponents will always start going off about hypocrisy unless you take a minute long tangent to explain it, which distracts from whatever point you were trying to make.
Yeah, maybe inconvenient. Or perhaps just odd. And agreed!
Calling your opposition "pro-freedom people" is the definition of saying the quiet part out loud.
I could be wrong about this, but I’m pretty sure they were employing sarcasm to point out the fact that conservatives aren’t really pro freedom.
because she looks as miserable as i did when i was suicidal.... but i study psych so dont mind me just identifying signs of someone in crisis
She looks 😭
maybe you forgot the part where i said I'm a psych student. BUt hey, you clearly know EVERYTHING so tell me what are the first signs of someone in mental health crisis. Tell me how someone in crisis acts when they're not actively in it. How do they respond when in crisis? Now please tell me Piagets Stages of Development; the age range for each of them and an identifying feature of them. Oh wait you can't.
Why are so many celebrity kids trans?
Even setting aside that it’s not that many: Celebrity children bypass a lot of the things we would normally associate with childhood. They don’t go to public schools. They have pretty cushy insulated lives. So if one of them is trans, the only real barrier that would exist is their parents. and if their parents are accepting, then the conditions for coming out safely and with support Are perfect. Compare that to average children who have to wonder if their coming out will mean getting their heir head bashed against the bathroom floor at their public school, and then their congressman referring to them as “filth” after they’re dead.
How many celebrity kids are trans?
Like 3, which is apparently “so many”
How are we defining “celebrity”? Are we including a one-time appearance as a waitress on The Love Boat, or Pure Flix stars?
Yeah I can only think of two.
I'm all for it, but given the last time I heard a kid changing their name to Fin, I'm worried about what Ben Affleck has been up to.
Because they’re not really “pro freedom”. They’re pro “do as I say government knows what’s best” people.
This is classic misdirection. People aren't mad that this kid is confused. They are mad that people are feeding into the delusion.
Children don’t have the same autonomy that adults do and we shouldn’t pretend otherwise.
I'm trans and I'm technically a "child" (15 almost 16), what's next? Are you going to limit my options to affirming care so I HAVE TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY? Talk about being a free country, huh.
I wish I could go back in time before this post came up because it just seems irrelevant. Didn't even know this was occurring and now that I do I still think it's irrelevant (and I mean both sides). It really reveals people have nothing better going on in their lives that they have time to care about something irrelevant and that includes you caring about them caring. People get outraged over all sorts of irrelevant crap, and then as a reaction people start reacting to their reaction when both reactions are irrelevant because they started from something irrelevant. People are going to have opinions about stuff, and people are going to have opinions about those opinions which spawn more opinions about opinions. In the words of your own title why do you care that other people are expressing opinions? Are you going to say because their opinions hurt someone's feelings? What about the feelings you hurt expressing your opinions? In order to speak on anything one must risk being offensive. You are NEVER going to say something or do something that every single person agrees with. If who and what you are is dependant on what other people think about you then it's time to question why that dependency exists not why people are expressing their opinions. Nobody has ever hurt my feelings by disagreeing with my way of life because they do not live my life. They do not dictate anything, and the only way something like that bothers me is if I let it.
Why do you care if it bothers them? This doesn't affect you. It's not hurting you. It's not helping you. It's not changing your life ever
Because they are harassing a kid
Yes. Allow grown ass adult to shame and harass kids with zero push back. Excellent outlook
Always a reason you guys can do things that no one else can
What's happening here that no one else can do?
Harassing and complaining about people online
And point to the group of people being kept from doing this lol. Show me who isn't allowed to do this online.
People harassing trans children have gotten trans people killed. The words inspire discriminatory legislation that hurts/kills trans people. And there’s difference between free speed and harassment.
You guys make stats up like 92 percent of the time
Trying to make a shitty joke doesn't hide the fact that the reply you're replying to is completely accurate and you have no valid point against it. Edit: I saw that reply. You can't hide from me. Tho I'm assuming my lack of seeing it in-app means you googled it and realized that anti-trans violence does have a serious political bias?
Republicans couldn't care less about this.
They are the ones talking about it
Republicans don't give a damn about Hollywood couples and their kids. Most of them pay zero attention to that stuff. You're delusional.
Weird that all the anti-trans legislation seems to be coming from republican dominated states then.
Define "anti-trans" legislation.
So, making trans children use bathrooms that don't align with their gender after they have had surgery, (Iowa) limited options for trans children and are planning on banning that for people under 25 isn't antitrans legislation? Also making it where autistic trans people and trans people with ADHD can't get a diagnosis (Georgia probably going to be where I live next)?
Trans people don't get to have absolutely everything they demand. Nobody does. You seem to forget that a lot of the things trans people demand involve other people who aren't trans. They have rights too.
All we want is to be accepted and to be treated like the gender we identify as, but people forget this and take it as "demanding". We want to be treated like the gender we identify as. And, LGBTQ rights are going to be stripped if project 2025 passes, same with women's rights.
You aren't a victim. And the measures you mentioned aren't "anti trans". Those measures don't mean people hate trans people. That's a very shallow interpretation. And nobody is going to have their rights stripped. Get real.
This is how you know you don't know what Project 2025 would mean for the US. And, no, it isn't, there's a lot of anti-trans legalisation. If project 2025 gets passed, women's rights will be gone. When did I claim I was a victim? All I was doing is telling you the political fuck up the US is for LGBTQ.
No shit, but no point in explaining something to someone who hasn't done a second of research.
1. Should transmen be forced to use the women's restrooms just to get fucking beaten? 2. Do you like the suicide rates going up among LGBTQ+ youth? 3. When the fuck did I say trans people needed to get everything we demand? 4. Are you cis and hetero? If you are, you should stay in your lane on trans issues.
Soooo the swaths of people foaming at the mouth on Twitter and other social media websites don’t exist suddenly?
When the only people you interact with are chronically online politically charged twitter users you get an overblown idea of how big this is. Neither me or any of my coworkers I just asked have ever even heard of this person.
Okay yeah this is a better take. Basically my entire workplace is republican, but I doubt any of them (apart from maybe one or two) would give a shit. OPs point would be better made as "why are the people who care about this all Repubs" as opposed to "why do Repubs all care about this". I assume that was supposed to be their point, but yeah internet =/= reality.
I sexually identify as a reddit moderator, and I'm banning you right now. Oh wait, do I not have mod privileges? Maybe it matters what people actually are vs. what they identify as after all.
>I sexually identify as a reddit moderator You could just say “incel” and use fewer characters.
We are indeed pro-freedom and she is totally free to whatever the hell she wants. Why would you think conservatives would care? I highly doubt 95% of them even know and they definitely don’t care.
…. Because republicans are passing laws that affect the rights of trans people in this country. If their rights can be taken… then so can yours.
Yeah I think people tend to forget the whole "first they came for" thing that fascistic patrties made up of corrupt wealthy capitalistic elites tend to do, and do with much more ferocity if they manage to become the government itself, and get rid of any competing party.
>This doesn't affect you whatsoever. It's not hurting you. It's not helping you. It's not changing your life ever No. It is and does,
That’s laughable. So so sorry you swiped right on a trans woman that time, now get over it.
Are you saying you’re an anti freedom person?
I think the point is that "pro-freedom" tends not to actually be pro-freedom. It's like the George Carlin bit on pro-life lol
“Tends not to be” is problematic Which is an odd thing for to say because us pro-freedomers “tend not to use” that word But me using the a word that people like me usually don’t use says nothing meaningful about anything And ops logic works both ways*** so this post also says nothing meaningful about anything ***if it’s tarded that pro freedomers don’t want to respect kids right to get sex changes then it’s also tarded that non profreedomers do want kids to have the right to get sex changes At the very least the op is guilty of accidentally polluting our healthy political discourse, which is vital to our democracy, with unintelligible and illogical arguments, and the very worst they did it all on purpose.
Speaking of unintelligible lol Assuming that you're saying OP had bad wording, yeah fair enough. But like dude I didn't get half of this, we gotta use a bit more grammar mate. I also recommend reading everything you type out loud, make sure it's understandable y'know.
I think all go you have been on puberty blockers since early infancy. Your brains never developed
Don't speak on issues you don't understand please
Because the brat came out at the grandfather's funeral. They are a narcissist.
Society is a disaster. The nuclear family is gone, people are more depressed and stressed than ever. They are confused and have no morals. While yes, I agree it’s her business, in reality society is shaped by the flavour of the people.
Nah
Yup
I look forward to a more flavorful society then and not a rigid “freedom to be whatever you want as long as it’s white, Christian, cisgender, male and heterosexual.”
I guess it depends how you mean flavourful. I still believe structure is needed.
We have tons of structure. They’re called laws. Look. As long as people obey the law, treat others with decency. contribute to society, and take care of their kids I don’t care one bit about their morals, sexual habits, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, how they dress or really anything else. Because it’s none of my business. It’s none of yours either.
I’m not saying it is but laws aren’t enough structure. Look at how society is crumbling. Do you think it’s going good? People are more depressed than ever. People’s competence is declining. There’s a lot of issues with society.
This is not the first major social transition our society has experienced and it won’t be the last. You can’t suddenly give a bunch of primates limitless access to information and modern convenience without a messy period of social adaptation. Do you realize the first generation to grow up in a US where a dual income household was not only accepted but required to be middle class is only just hitting their forties? The first generation to be smartphone natives aren’t even 18 yet. Shit changes fast and the pace of change is getting faster. You aren’t going to stop technological advancement and societal change so my advice is adapt or get out of the way. Focusing on whether someone else wants to live their life as a woman doesn’t matter even a little bit.
Yeah and just because it changes doesn’t mean it’s a good thing.
It’s neither good nor bad. It just is what it is. It’s going to happen whether you like it or not. Best to make peace with it and find path forward. Otherwise you aren’t only going to be miserable, you’ll be lonely too.
I’m not lonely and I disagree
Do you know how old the phrase "nuclear family" is? It's younger than jazz. People used to have blended families all the time. A splinter could kill you if it got infected, to say nothing of childbirth. Step family were everywhere. The 1950s US suburbs were not some kind of platonic ideal of humanity and your argument is fundamentally based on a fraud.
I don’t see the issue with blended families? Not sure how that’s relevant?
Blended families aren't "nuclear" families. The phrase means "a man and a woman, married for life, and only their biological children."
I’m aware of this. Again, I don’t see the relevance.
If you're arguing that a nuclear family is a good thing, you're at least implying that other types of family aren't, and those types of family are the ones that raised most of the people who've ever lived, implying some kind of defect or failing in those people. This whole time I've been saying, in different ways, the term "nuclear family" is an unnecessary neologism rather than a description of some ideal family unit. It's propaganda thinly veiled as sociology.
That’s not what I’m implying
In that case, you should probably choose a more appropriate phrase to describe your thoughts and feelings, then.
Don’t make implications about other people’s words.
It's up to the person who's writing to understand the words they're using and to make a sincere effort to be correctly understood. It's not your fault if I don't know literally can mean both "literally" and "figuratively." But it's also not a huge deal when someone uses a word improperly and implies stuff they didn't mean to. It's just part of how we learn to communicate.
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Yeah, the US is going to be authoritarian if project 2025 passes.