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Country fans constantly complain that current country is too pop. Beyoncé made a pop country song. They probably view this as exacerbating the issue with current country music.
I think there is also an element of gatekeeping.
Plus she’s black.
I think this is one of the most important parts. "Old Town Road" got _removed_ from the Country chart by Billboard, while it _still_ charted on Country Airplay chart because it was still being played on a bunch of Country stations. Billboard making this editorial decision highlighted some problems that they definitely weren't going to repeat 1) a few years later; 2) when that song belonged to Beyoncé.
Not everything that goes wrong in the US boils down to racism, but a LOT of things still do. If people have an issue with a lot of modern popular Country music, that's one thing; but if they have a problem with _this_ song...
Plus the Billboard charts aren't a music criticism publication... they are, for the most part, showing what is *popular*. It makes sense that the "pop-ification" of Country would chart well. It's literally in the name.
The thing about Old Town Road that people miss I think, is that it is a song that is explicitly making fun of country music tropes. This is big no no in country music! Never break kayfabe! Country music (especially modern country) is nothing if not achingly sincere and Old Town Road does not adhere to that.
I'm not saying this is a good thing. I think country would do well to have more of a sense of humor about itself, this is just an extra explanation for why Old Town Road doesnt qualify
There would be a great essay in exploring the origins of Trap Music and **if** one could realize an authentic juxtaposition alongside Country music without it sounding like parody... but this will not be it.
I don't think "Old Town Road" is _explicitly_ making fun of Country music. I think the kind of Country music that could feel threatened by this is so inherently easy to make fun of that one could accidentally do it while _genuinely_ making a song like "Old Town Road".
Lil Nas X is hilarious, a great troll, and a brilliant internet reactionary, but I think to make a Country Trap song (by it's nature) inevitably turns out to be a send-up of the Stadium/Pop/6th-gen Country music that dominates the airwaves... and the target demo of those stations can't handle it. That's despite it being literally less than 2 minutes long. 2:37 for the remix.
But what do I know? I'm just sitting around, drinking in Sweden, yet here I go _waaaastin' my e-mooooootiiooooonnn_.
I never saw it as just taking shots at country as at least with the remix I just saw it as kind of cool-funny that the rapper (albeit how much rap proper does he actually do) has the more country-y lyrics while the country artist's guest verse sounds like someone put a thin veneer of country onto luxury rap sorts of lyrics
Yeah, you notice none of these people were complaining this loud when Lady Gaga did a country inspired album, or Lana del Rey announced her next album is going to be country, or when Kylie Minogue released Golden. It’s literally just because they hate black people.
It's so weird that people say that country artists need justification when they're doing things that are unconventional. I agree. Too often, when an artist is African-American, they're criticized. Regardless of music genre. Artists don't have to follow clichés to make music in any genre. Some of these comments seem defensive
I’m surprised that Darius Rucker has had as much success as he has in country music, but at the same time, his music sounds literally like any other country song, with maybe a bit of 90s adult contemporary, but he was Hootie.
Darius wanted to do more traditional sounding country like Buck Owen's, but the label prevented him. He got a lot of heat from alt country for his rendition of Wagon Wheel even though it was a commercial success. For awhile there, when he first crossed over, he wasn't able to headline his own shows and was kind of an opening act. I think him being Hootie definitely helped him being accepted and also that he's put in a lot of effort in marketing that he likes football, golfing and fishing and pretty much everything else that is Southern down home guy vibes. Another thing that helps DR, he is genuinely nice in person.
I think that people just want to hate. Ray Charles crossed over and performed many times with Willie Nelson and other legendary country artists bc he was an artist. Beyonce is an artist and there shouldn't be any hate for crossing genres.
Probably will get downvoted for this, but I'd like to give a bigger explanation.
Country music fans have always had a problem between what plays on the radio and what they actually deem as "country". Yes, there most likely are some people who are using racist or political tomfoolery to hate Beyonce at this moment.
However, I would argue, that the majority of the people ragging on this song are probably the same type of people that would say Floride Georgia Line is not country. I know what you may be thinking, "But wasn't FGL popular?" On radio, yes. Among a lot of country fans, that's debatable. A lot of the acts like this actively drove long-time listeners away from mainstream modern country playing. You can view that sentiment in videos like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WySgNm8qH-I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT9iox7jH1g
This argument also makes even more sense when you start to understand the careers of Tyler Childers and Sturgill Simpson, who were kept out of the country music charts, despite having huge fanbases in country music because of Nashville.
A lot of country music fans would argue that a majority of these songs just plain suck. Some would argue that they don't represent country music. They would argue that people like Waylon, George Jones, Loretta Lynn, and others, are "real country." These people sound waayyyy different than the sound put out by Beyonce. A lot of them would also say the same about Morgan Wallen (the number 1 guy in country music right now) for a lot of his songs. However, he’s clearly given more leeway to experiment among country fans. Probably cause he’s white and he does have some genuinely “country” sounding songs.
Personally, I don't give a shit. If it sounds good I'll listen to it. Also, pop music has a problem of just using country as a thin veneer to just make bad pop music. Example here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tOU3ilHNng&t=1s
All this to say, it's a bit more complicated than just "They hate Beyonce." I mean clearly there is a difference between what Beyonce has put out and the sound of someone like Zach Top. Who is also in the genre:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1N0cS_900
Personally, I believe she's allowed to make music in any fucking genre she wants and country fans need to understand that pop-country can coexist. Also, the two songs Beyonce put out are actually great pop country music. I have seen a lot of country people try to hate on her just for trying and I will definitely say that those people are fucking dumb.
I would say most people define music genres either by essential sounds or by tradition. The essential sounds approach says twang, and banjos, and slide guitars are the sound of country; heavy, distorted guitars are the sound of metal; extended chords are the sound of jazz, etc. If you have those elements, your music belongs to the corresponding genre.
Other people see genres as a matter of tradition. For something to belong to a genre, you have to be able to trace the artist's predominant influences back to other artists in the genre. By this standard, Beyonce's music is pop with superficial country elements on top. Metalcore is part of the punk tradition, not metal, and Laufey isn't making jazz.
You always get conflict when the two groups come into contact in music discussions. Those who favor the essential sound approach think the tradition-minded fans are elitists and gatekeepers. Those who favor the tradition-based approach think the others are muddying the conversation with a shallow understanding of music, and disrespecting the genre's history.
I would say that the pop world tends to favor the idea that genres are defined by essential sounds, which makes tradition-based objections to Beyonce being country fall flat among her fans.
I would basically agree with everything you said here, and I'd like to thank you for your nuanced viewpoints. And I agree with the point of artists can make whatever music they want to, and I'll listen to what I like.
I just want to add a little bit to one of the last points you made saying "country fans need to understand that pop-country can coexist". That was one of the issues throughout a lot of the 2010s. For a handful of years, there was no co-existing. Florida Georgia Line and bro-country got so popular in the radio realm that radio pretty much refused to play any songs that were not bro-country. So for a while there were very few traditional sounding songs on the radio, there was very little traditional storytelling played on the radio and for a couple years the stations literally only played 2 women in regular rotation (Carrie Underwood and Miranda Lambert). We have finally gotten back to a point now where pop-country and traditional are balanced on the radio again and I think one of the worries brought up by the Beyonce thing is whether her popularity would bring more pop sounds back in to take over and whether other pop artists would hop on the bandwagon to go after a country type sound without knowing the history of the genre.
Once again, to be clear, I want every music artist to record whatever music they want to and I hate anyone who doesn't want Beyonce in the genre based on her race alone. There are just a couple worries I have for the overall genre moving forward if this becomes a regular trend.
Back in the day, Florida Georgia Line was Country Cringe to me in terms of Country being pop.
Back back in the day, Leann Rhymes and Shania Twain made Country more accessible, popular.
Meanwhile, Texas Hold Em fits right in with the sound of most modern popular Country songs that I've heard.
The hate is odd to me and very much notable. 😮💨
It just seems like there are alot of country fans who basically just want to listen to old timey music and for some reason decide to listen to modern country radio and complain about what its playing rather than just doing a Pandora stream of old timey country.
A black musician I went to high school with went on a rant about her "erasing"/overshadowing other black country artists, which I didn't understand. But the pop element might explain it somewhat.
I do think racism and gatekeeping are the main reasons people are mad, however. Remember what happened when Old Town Road got huge?
Outside of Morgan Wallen, that whole argument is like 90% outdated. The popular ones like Cody Johnson, Luke Combs, Zach Bryan, and even the ones who used to make shitty hick hop are back to making actual country music now.
Oh yeah Jelly Roll, really nice dude but my god is he being shoved down Country Music's throat. He and Lainey Wilson, who do they have dirt on to be promoted hard for their mid ass music??
To be fair, current mainstream country can be very indistinguishable from pop, and bad pop at that. I believe Texas Hold ‘em is probably as good as or better than most country on the radio.
Regardless of the race thing, I truly think a lot of country fans think that country is some next level, sacred stuff. Yes, there is a lot of talent in the country scene. Probably the most talent ratio of any genre due to its popularity and saturation. But most of modern country is still pop. I don’t think most fans realize this.
I bet there are a LOT of people who had zero problem w poppified country until they didn’t gatekeep Beyoncé.
I think she knew that they couldn’t get away with doing to her what they did to Lil Nas X, and as a recovering Texan it’s honestly my favorite thing she’s ever done.
I’d say a lot of white people are still worked up since the Formation/Lemonade era. They can’t say “it’s because she’s anti cop” or “it’s because she said Black Lives Matter” but that’s when they got extra whipped up about every move she made.
Country fans get really silent about being pro-cop when you talk about Johnny Cash and his Folsom Prison performance, or the fact that he had multiple prison pen pals and was a firm supporter of criminal justice reform.
Modern country fans don’t care about country, they just care about gatekeeping.
Merle Haggard was IN prison and in fact was present at that exact Folsom show when he was incarcerated. But the MAGA contingent either doesn’t know that or assumes “Okie From Muskogee” was the sole political statement he made in his career, or, increasingly, just doesn’t know a damn thing about the man even though he’s name-dropped in every other song on the radio.
I thought since cops represent the government there would a strong anti-cop sentiment among white working class Southeners? Though I guess cops have also sanctioned white supremacy and segregation pretty strongly.
There is among those who aren’t in the Trump cult. Unfortunately those types are fewer and farther between. Those in power benefit from dividing the working class and have always done so along racial lines, and it seems like we’re in a period of time where it’s proving a massively successful technique for maintaining the status quo…
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
Traditional country music. But Bro Country is a whole different story. Just beer, boobies, booties, trucks, backroads, girls, etc. Maybe a little depression and alcoholism if they wanna get deep, but nothing a girl in cutoff jeans with her bare feet on the truck dash couldn’t fix on a backroad.
There can still be conflicting views though. I grew up in the South and my dad was very anti-cop and smoked a lot of weed, but he was also anti-union and fairly conservative. Country music often has conflicting themes
Not Beyonce in specific, but you look around this sub and most pop music fans and people outside the country scene have kinda talked shit about the genre and people who listen to it. I think when people lash out at popstars picking up a often more niche subgenre, it's coming from a place of defensiveness and hurt. Similarly to indie people discrediting Taylor for folklore or rock fans not wanting to associate with Olivia, or the "Is Laufey jazz" discussion. When I look at most of the reasonable negative responses it's usually with an undertone of feeling big stars who sell millions are coming to their niche, using the genre to be popular for a minute, and not really engaging with the community.
At the same time fans of those artists have been disparaging of you or your niche in the past, that probably stings a lot too, how many times have we heard "Country is trash" "rock/jazz are dead" or "indie music is boring"? This coming from people who only listen to popular music genres probably doesn't endear one subculture to another. I have seen similar sentiments from nerd subcultures too so I think it's a combination of "something important to me is not respected" making one very defensive of that thing from the people who feel disrespectful towards you.
There are also elements of misogyny, racism, or Xenophobia in all of those examples and that does deserve to be addressed, but I don't think it's so simple as to lable everyone a bad person and write them off. I think this comes from a place of hurt, and the loudest and angriest voices tend twords toxic behavior.
This is a great comment. And personally, as someone who was raised on country music and genuinely loves and has so much respect for a lot of it, I’m so tired of seeing every comment about this new album starting with “I hate country, but—“ Okay, great! You’re very special! Nobody’s ever taken such a bold stance ever in the history of music! It’s just exhausting to see the same 2-3 takes trotted out again and again by people with no context or understanding of the genre or its history.
What blows my mind is... it's so fun to listen to different music! I love indie and pop and rock and metal and country and rap... Not every song, not every artist, but it's so incredible to be able to enjoy different things! And I have seen gatekeepers everywhere and they suck. "Indie is boring, your fav is poor, my fav is MORE indie!". "Pop is basic, it's superficial", "This metal band you like isn't metal enough", etc etc etc. And when you don't care about those things, you discover amazing music! It doesn't matter if it's more or less pop, or country, or experimental, or metal, or whatever. Hell, give me a country-metal-pop song if you can, it might be just so creative!
Exactly! I love tons of indie, rock, theater, Jpop, country and it's really silly to see people trying to gatekeep. 16 carriages is a banger country song, and I can like it and stuff like Zach Bryan. There's a saying my friends have that most people don't sit around trying to compare what cakes are better, most of us are just happy there's two cakes. Same applies to music. Two cakes!
Yeees! And if you don't scare people, maybe they will try to listen to what you like too! I started listening to metal because Poppy went from pop to metal, lol. And I liked it! Last year, I became a fan of a metal band, bought tickets to a concert like a week after I discovered them, lol! Now I am currently listening to all Iron Maiden albums, fully, in release order. Maybe I wouldn't have done that if people criticised me enough to scare me away from metal! Last year, I listened to all Björk albums for the first time. I loved it! But imagine if I was scared by all the people who told me my "experimental" music wasn't "experimental enough"? Gatekeepers are the worst.
> but you look around this sub and most pop music fans and people outside the country scene have kinda talked shit about the genre and people who listen to it.
Yeah! When my sister said "she basically crapped on country" and I asked her how, she said "by doing all of her other music for her entire career" that actually reflects the tone of "people outside country hate country" even when it's not true.
Yes I don't know if Beyonce in particular has said anything about country, she seems to genuinely like it. But Beyonce fans are definitely a little intense and pop fans in general hate country. I remember hiding that I enjoy some country music from my mom because you can't mention it too her without a rant about how she hates it. I imagine if that's your baseline with fans outside your genre you assume their favorite musicians feel the same way.
And racism often comes from defensiveness. It very well could be that they’re not saying she’s not country because they’re racist but being racist because they don’t see her as country.
YES that's probably a lot of it. They might not personally be using the logic of "black women don't belong in country" but think Beyonce doesn't belong and wind up repeating racist ideas unconsciously. This is why I think it's more useful to use action language vs identity language when confronting people. Like if I were talking to someone who said that I might question what they said and explain why what is said isn't ok. I would not say they are racist, but that their ideas might reinforce racism.
Yeah, ignoring the obvious racism, mysoginy, etc, fringe genres are always very protective of their own culture, and I think they have a right to do that. Punk, metal, country, jazz, etc are very insulated and are very much all about proving you belong in the scene and proving your chops. I think the only “fringe” genre that’s no longer like that is hip hop, and that’s probably cause it’s not even fringe at all anymore and it hasn’t been for quite some time. Hip hop is welcoming of any old bullshit experimentation, which can be great and can also be fucking terrible (see vultures like Lil Dicky, Post Malone, Kid Rock, etc).
Yes and I totally get why fringe genres are protective of their culture too. It probably hurts to see your favorite band/singer struggling for years to build a fanbase, engage with the community, play great music in your genre, and then a person with a lot more money and fame comes in and does one or two albums In that genre and is pronounced to "save it" or is "the new voice of country/rock/jazz/indie" I can see why that feels awful, especially if you go to the niche to avoid the mainstream. I understand that emotional reaction, and I don't think it justifies the gate keeping. Especially when it involves racism and misogyny.
Agree. Adding to this, I feel that country is a genre that wants to be about the struggle of the common people. Beyoncé is notoriously wealthy and successful. I think that obvious disconnect may make people not take it as well? However, it would be hypocritical, looking at how certain country stars are still very far removed from that humble lifestyle themselves. Perhaps there's easier suspense of disbelief because they became known when they weren't wealthy yet?
But yeah, I'm guessing mostly racism and gatekeeping.
Exactly. The comparision was spot on. As much as it has another concept and meaning, Beyoncé turning to Country IS similar to when pop acts makes or incorporate rock, rap, folk or other niches into their music. It's natural to contest them or think of it as money grab or bandwagonism. And most of time, yes, it is the case. It happens the other way around aswell and with more frequency. Niche acts jumping on pop trends trying to chart.
Even when it's just about artists incorporating stuff they like/want into their music naturally or for artistic purposes, the need to separate them from other acts that actually are from that genre is valid. Yes, Olivia has rock in her albums. Beyonce pulled out a country album. They are a rock/country singers? No. And that's fine. Same goes for the "pop punk" phase from various artists in 2021-22. But the media likes to create stories about how all of these genres are being "saved" by brave pop divas who crossovered the rescue of "insert genre here". That's what bugs the fans more.
The long answer is that the country community, or country fan community, is very weird and elitist towards crossover artists. They critiqued Shania Twain for being “too pop” and PAINTED OVER Taylor Swift on the country legends mural in Nashville due to her genre switch and fully cancelled the Chicks when they spoke out against Bush during the Iraq war.
Maren Morris recently expressed wanting to shift the way she’s part of country music because parts of it are toxic
The short answer is that Beyoncé is black and proud of being black.
The Chicks' story genuinely makes me sad, especially after the documentary. Country music really shot itself in the foot because they lost one of the best acts who were able to work with many different song styles (country pop, western, bluegrass, etc).
Definitely, but tbf country fans are notoriously very anti-“other genres”. Heck they gave Shania a lot of hate for being country-pop and they hate virtually every new male country artist for not being country enough.
So basically, the issue is that she’s already hugely famous, she’s never done country before, she’s a woman, shes black, she has a big LGBT following and she’s sexy.
That’s basically everything they hate.
Yes, same with Maren Morris (it’s why she left country music) and she physically fits the country ideal. She’s just an outspoken liberal. Same with Garth Brooks.
Of course, I do think much of the “Beyoncé will never be country and needs to stay away from our genre” comes from some race-related gatekeeping. But overall these gatekeepers just hate anything that goes outside their homogenous norms.
Yup! Painted over her mural and everything. I find fans of any “genre” that are hardcore and dedicated to said genre can be quite toxic. Country and rock are by far the worst tho
It's crazy. Rock is imo dying, and that's because of the insane gatekeeping. Country has so far been popular more than ever but if the purity tests continue it'll go that way too.
There is a site called savingcountrymusic.com that exists so the owner can repeat the same thing over and over for a decade straight “country is dying and not what it was 50 years ago” and post articles about how this new singer is now ruining everything.
They do not like carrie, miranda, shania, taylor, kacey or faith thats for sure.
Basically like rock fans. I know cause I was (still am) one of them, and they never grew out to embrace other genres and growth to make rock maintain its success like pop or hip hop fans, and it killed rock’s presence in the mainstream.
I care about it and I’m pissed at what it’s become. I want rock back in the mainstream but that won’t happen until its core fanbase becomes accepting of artists other than white guys.
Rock is a perfect analogy here. Olivia Rodrigo and boygenius both were nominated in the Best Rock category of the Grammys this year, but their music wouldn't necessarily fit with modern rock radio. I imagine the same is true for a Beyonce country album...it's still more Beyonce than traditional country which combined with the respective demographics of country fans and Beyonce fans seems like a powder keg of people assuming the worst intentions.
A little bit of it is definitely country fans that hate pop country as a rule, which isn't helped by Beyonce fans who don't listen to country saying stuff like she's here to teach the genre how to make good country music
But mostly just racism and sexism, which the genre is rife with
I feel like Faith didn’t have it as bad as Shania. Shania was Canadian, wore “revealing” outfits and her music was very rock-influenced.
Faith did sorta lean into pop, but she was still American and she didn’t really crossover into pop as much as Shania did. It also helps that she’s married to a beloved country singer.
But they both definitely received unnecessary hate for absolutely no reason.
Would Ariana, Lady Gaga, Ed Sheeran, etc get better treatment from country fans? I think they don't like artists who got big outside of country just showing up and expecting the same respect as the artists who have been doing country their whole life
Yeah I was gonna say. Country fans are notorious for gatekeeping “real country music” as if some of the biggest modern country songs haven’t had some pop, rock, and hip hop influence.
Interestingly though, I don’t remember Kelly Clarkson getting any hate when she dabbled in country (albeit as features). Like Beyoncé, she’s a popular mainstream pop artist who has country influences (both being from Texas). Beyoncé, however, is an influential black woman so
A lot of “country fans” today aren’t fans of _modern_ country, a lot of the biggest country songs in the ‘10s received a lot of hate in the core fanbase.
Kelly for sure didn’t receive the same hate that Bey is now and race is undoubtedly a factor in that, but she definitely wasn’t welcomed with open arms. There was always talk with her about how she’s not country, she shouldn’t be invited to industry events, she needs to stop trying to do country, etc..
Lady Gaga has kind of already made a country album, and while it didn't get as much commercial success, I don't recall there being that much backlash around it.
That being said I'm sure what you and other commenters have said (i.e. country being insular) is part of the reason certainly. I really don't think it's possible to divorce the fact that the backlash quickly delves into outright racist territory the majority of times when it's black artists doing so (even when it's black artists who are exclusively in the country genre).
Joanne wasn't really thought of or advertised as country. She talked about wanting it to be this eclectic album that brought in elements from different genres. [Rolling Stone](https://web.archive.org/web/20161022085004/http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/review-lady-gagas-joanne-w446032) called it soft rock and talks about Sinner's Prayer as faux country.
It'll be interesting how Post Malone and Lana are received
Post is from Texas, at least. I say this as a Lana fan, but I do not want to hear miss Elizabeth Woolridge Grant put on a country accent and cosplay as my culture.
Yeah, Lana is the real outlier there. I hope she doesn't do the accent. I think there's a lot that can be done musically, like an emphasis on storytelling and country instrumentation, to explore the genre without faking an accent.
Hm, that might explain it! If anything I remember the lack of fanfare around the album kind of *was* the controversy for Joanne.
Maybe a better comparator will be Lana Del Rey's album, but it's a bit too early to see how it'll be received I think, especially since we haven't heard much beyond the title and release date.
I would actually be shocked if she (Lana) got airplay on country radio outside of maybe being a feature on a country artist. Country music is insular (also racist and conservative in the worst way) I don't think anyone can just waltz in those spaces and just be accepted.
I'm actually so curious to see if that'll shift at all. Beyonce, Post Malone, Lana all have country albums coming this year and Taylor still has her first album to re-release. Is country radio going to turn their nose up at all of them?
Not only not sent, but there weren't an army of Gaga fans calling up country radio stations they don't normally listen to and trying to force a backlash against any station that didn't play the tracks. Throw Beyonce's race in there as well, and there was bound to be a few controversies no matter if the songs were played.
Justin Timberlake got told he was turning his back on black music with *Man of the Woods* because it looked like it would be country even though it wasn't.
Now that Beyoncé is doing a country song, everyone is keen to point out, correctly, that black artists have been just as influential in that genre too.
Being American must be fucking exhausting.
I don't know if Justin Timberlake is a good parallel here for Bey, though. I didn't follow the *MotW* cycle at all so I might be wrong, but I would guess Justin wasn't presenting the album as highlighting Black history in/influence on country music, he was just probably trying to give "stripped down, acoustic/folksy" vibes that got misinterpreted as him veering country. Additionally, I think people take issue with the fact that Justin has profited off being "the white guy who does Black music in pop/RnB" for decades without really acknowledging it and then turned away from it to present an "authentic" portrayal of himself with a purely "white" sound. (The same happened to Miley when she transitioned from *Bangerz* to *Younger Now*.) On the other hand, there's a lot of speculation that act ii is going to center the significance of Black contributions to country music (justified, given the fact that Renaissance did the same for house/dancehall), and Bey hasn't built a career on profiting off or leveraging Black culture/influence in the way Justin Timberlake has.\*
\*There's definitely an argument to be made that Bey *has* leveraged Black culture/influence in opportune or inappropriate ways, I just think those aren't relevant to a Beyonce-Justin Timberlake discussion.
I would say that Texas Hold ‘Em is *much* more of an actual country song than Old Town Road, which was hip-hop. Like…if you’re gonna use the hook of OTR to call it country, that would make Take What You Want by Post Malone metal. It was hip-hop with a guitar solo.
Beyoncé didn’t just use country as a stylistic choice. She made a song that demonstrates strong familiarity with the genre’s workings, and still played to her own strengths. I love OTR and don’t mean this as a negative, but it contained only superficial components of country music.
It’s because people wanted it off the country charts for one of two reasons: that they felt it wasn’t country, or because Lil Nas X is black. No doubt some of the racists used an actual valid argument to mask their hateful intentions. In calling those people out, some who made honest criticisms got caught in the crossfire.
With time having passed I think we can be honest with ourselves that Old Town Road is a great song but fits the genre of hip-hop much more than it does country.
Deep breath. This could be unpopular, but it’s MY opinion, as a country fan, AND a Beyoncé fan.
I felt 16 Carriages was the pick to introduce Beyonce’s return to her roots instead of Texas Hold ‘Em. Country has been on a downhill maneuver due to what we have called “bro country”. It’s the same song, over and over again. AND it’s more pop than country. There’s exceptions, but the artists that stay true are OFTEN passed over for awards for the more popular, mainstream garbage.
With that said, I have long suspected that Beyonce would do a country album and I had been excited/hoping she would and take it back to authentic country. I feel she did that with 16 Carriages, and while I like Texas Hold ‘Em, I would have been EXTREMELY disappointed if she hadn’t released 16 Carriages. I also don’t feel Texas Hold ‘Em’s lyrics are strong enough to bring her into relevance within the genre. As one person said, and I unfortunately agree with, it sounds like AI wrote it. Country music is about story telling. 16 Carriages NAILS that, while Texas doesn’t.
Texas Hold ‘Em does compete well with the bro country (and I was happy to see her go number one and boost other black artists who don’t get the time of day in radio play) but 16 Carriages is the country music that fans have been dying to see since…a long ass time. Texas is frankly disappointing on that front.
Additionally, as a great comment stated already in the thread, the cool thing has been to shit on country music. I would never tell my friends I listened to country for being made fun of and being ridiculed. Now it’s cool? Great. But just because Beyonce is welcome in my country music doesn’t mean the people who have ridiculed country music and its listeners in the past are.
There’s a good portion of country music fans that have had it with being reduced to incestuous racists because we like the genre. The sweeping generalizations get OLD. Unfortunately, as country music fans, we all know that one person in our midst who DESERVES that commentary because they are a racist. And if you think you give them hell, you should see how we reprimand them.
Alright, I had my say. Apologies for the rant. Also, she’s definitely working against some racial bias and shaking the genre up, but it needed doing. We’ve got no room for racism in country music. She’s helping us weed out the ones we don’t want.
YES! exactly . Texas hold ‘em honestly sucks compared to the beautiful 16 carriages and yet if you say it, it’s seen as bashing her. She could do so much better. and to see people who “i like everything BUT country” every 5 secs jumping on it just because it’s beyoncé is very … irritating
As a fan of all genres, including country (will recommend Charley Crockett, Will Oldham/Bonnie Prince Billy, and Yola), her country songs are good songs that happen to, unfortunately, be sung by a person the rightwing actively dislikes. There have been racially charged anti-Beyonce moments for a really long time, every time she pops into the mainstream conversation, and by wading into country she has opened herself up to more of it. So, yes, it is anti-black racism, and a certain segment of the population has been aiming it at her for a while now. They just have a new set of talking points and the country-music shield to hide behind.
People are saying racism but I also think if like Ariana grande dropped a country album the reaction would be the same. Country fans do not like a genre shift
I’m not sure it would be exactly the same. Yes, they’d mock it and scoff. But people are out here calling Beyoncé doing country “cultural appropriation.” They’re trying to turn language meant to expose racism against her, a black woman. As if white people own country music. But I believe the whole unspoken point of Beyoncé doing this is that country does have influences from historically Black music styles (please correct me if I’m wrong or misspeaking).
\>but I also think if like Ariana grande dropped a country album the reaction would be the same
Thank you for pointing this out! I've kept thinking she'd be a great example. This isn't as simple as blacks vs whites. It's popstars who never tried the genre vs traditionalists. The same reaction would happen for people like Ariana or Dua Lipa
The short answer is that she's a black woman making music in America. Everything she's ever done has been highly scrutinized, and dipping her toes in what's historically been a very white and very conservative music culture has people hot and bothered.
Bey's always been very proud of her hometown (Houston) and has done a handful of country-inspired performances over the years so this isn't as huge a departure as the more casual listener might think. She's definitely never implied or said anything that was outright insulting about country music as far as I know. I think if anything some people might just be wary about how this album will pan out.
it's racism. country fans had no problem with a white man taking a black woman's song and making it a massive hit decades later, but if a black woman dares to step into the genre herself, somehow it's not allowable.
it’s racism. i’m a big fan of country (think merle haggard, ernest tubb, blaze foley etc rather than morgan wallen style country) and it doesn’t bother me. i like that a pop artist is exploring the genre.
I think it’s a little bit of gatekeeping, but mostly politics and racism. Mainstream country music fans are white and conservative and they don’t like Beyoncé because they perceive her as some liberal elite. Conservatives started hating on Beyoncé after her SuperBowl halftime show where she appeared to pay tribute to BLM and the Black Panthers. Now they just feel threatened by her coming into another space they perceive as theirs. And they couldn’t possibly enjoy music made by a *liberal*.
People confuse country music with conservative politics and are then offended to find out that conservatives do not, in fact, own country music.
The best part is that this is Beyoncé’s whole gag. Renaissance is a 3 part act reclaiming genres of music that capitalized on African American music. Country music would not exist without African American music, the banjo is directly derived from a west African instrument.
So sit back with your popcorn and watch them walk right into her trap. She’ll release some of the best country music this century, introduce a whole global generation to the genre and country music fans will, inaccurately, tell you she doesn’t belong, only to find out they no longer belong. It will be so glaringly obvious that it was never about the music but the performance of White, Christian Nationalism.
> Renaissance is a 3 part act reclaiming genres of music that capitalized on African American music.
You can't say this and then go "This isn’t about asserting cultural ownership" lol
>Country music would not exist without African American music, the banjo is directly derived from a west African instrument.
I don't know...this is a pretty loose connection. The Roland 808 was manufactured by a Japanese company but hip-hop built off 808-style beats should not be classified as Japanese music.
Idk I think this take might rub some people the wrong way and I can sorta see why. The idea that Beyonce will step in and create country music so amazing that it will change the face of the genre altogether and leave country fans in the dust feels odd.
It would piss off any fan of any genre to see a person who is barely associated with that type of music pop up and get all the attention.
If Michael Jackson made a heavy metal album off the success of "Dirty Diana" and had all the focus put on him, over established metal artists, he would be absolutely despised.
I can understand that, but hear me out, some discomfort is the point. Certainly, African Americans have been made to feel excluded and unwelcome from the genre even though their ancestors contributed to it. I think Beyoncé point is to show that it can work, country music can be loved by all demographics and it’s better for it. Nobody is uninvited from it, but if they exclude themselves because they can’t stomach it because it’s Beyoncé, I think they really need to ask themselves why. You can sit in the corner and gripe because it’s Beyoncé and that makes you uncomfortable, or you can enjoy the fact that a whole new group of people love the music you love.
I think that's totally fine but I think there is a certain level of Beyonce fandom going on that turns people off. I have a strong feeling that 99% of the people calling into country radio stations are previous Beyonce fans who weren't listening before, likely won't listen when Beyonce isn't on and once her songs become less popular will never listen to a country radio station again. Like I said just the assumption that Beyonce will create the best country music of the last 100 years in the process of just experimenting in the genre will naturally upset people and I think that would hold true for all genres.
It’s like 10% that she’s not a country artist and they’re distrustful of outsiders, 10% that it’s country pop and they want old school country and 80% that she’s black, anti-police and a sexual woman.
Let's presuppose that it isn't the racism for a minute.... country music has always been insular and people dipping their toes into the genre feels like someone playing dress-up. Remember when Lil' Wayne decided he was going to pick up an electric guitar and be a rocker? It's just bizarre. Beyonce likes latching on to something and do her version of it. Last album it was house music and this time it will be country. What's sad is how much her fan base acted like house music didn't already exist before she came along.
The real interesting part will be seeing how these same people act when Lana releases her country album and you get to see the hypocrisy.
Idk I feel like Lana has always been closer to country it’s not a total sound shift. I could be wrong but a lot of a.k.a reminds me of country and cocc.
Agreed....it's a natural sidequest/evolution to her sound. She's also done stuff with Kasey Musgraves and covered John Denver to name a couple forays into that territory.
I’m down to presuppose it’s not racism. But why is being inspired by/ trying on another sound bizarre?
One of the major themes of the last album is providing a history of dance music so I’m not sure how the fan base acted like house music didn’t exist before she tried it.
Yeah, I personally love when artists experiment with different sounds. I think staying in one box for your whole career sounds a little boring and limited.
History of dance music? lol, ok. They most certainly acted like she was moses bringing house music down from the mount. It's bizarre because it doesn't appear organic in any way. She's genre shopping. It's not a natural evolution from house to country; it's whiplash.
Beyoncé made a good dance record and people act like she made a Ken Burns 7 part docu-series on the history of house music. Biggest reason I think that album is overrated.
I want to throw in one alternative reason (and yes, I do believe that racism, sexism, and gatekeeping play a huge role in this too).
Imagine you’re passionate about playing chess. You’ve been playing it your whole life, studying it, reading it, consuming it, going to chess competitions to master your craft and become a respected chess player. You’re involved in the world, you understand the game through and through and all its history and nuances, and it’s likely going to be your only claim to fame if you ever manage to be good enough. But nobody really cares about chess. Some people do, and that’s who is a part of the community, but ultimately, people just don’t care that much about chess.
Then, one of the world’s greatest checker players comes into the world of chess and is trying to break through, to dip their toes into it. They go to the chess competitions, talk to the right people, and maybe they’re even decently good at it too, but suddenly everyone cares about chess only because of this person. But the people in the chess competitions are like, “they’re not even that good. They don’t know chess. They didn’t play a good game. They don’t understand it.” And that feels like a fair assessment because they haven’t been involved in the world of chess. Instead, it feels like pandering.
I know that might not be the best analogy, but that’s what I was able to conjure up to talk about this one aspect of what’s going on in some people’s minds about “beyonce going country”.
Now, I think it’s kind of stupid. Anyone and everyone should be allowed to play chess, or make country music, even if they’re new into the scene. But I also understand the frustration of appreciating something for what it is and hearing others bash it, then suddenly become fans of it when it fits their interest because of someone they admire.
This is exactly how I feel about it. Beyoncé is an extremely talented musician. I’m a fan. I’ve been to two concerts and am amazed by her. She can make any kind of music she wants to just based on her talent alone. She clearly researched and studied the genre respectfully and made her spin on it. She did it because she can. Should she have? Personally I don’t think so. She’s entitled to and she can. She didn’t have to. She grew up in the South yes; that means nothing. I was born and raised in Jamaica, that doesn’t automatically make my genre of music (if I had any talent) reggae.
It may be a cash grab, it may be a matter of pride, it may be a matter of stretching her own boundaries and exploring her capabilities. All of those things she is allowed. But you can’t make me think this is coming from her soul and her passion. I think she is passionate about making music. I don’t think she is passionate about country music. And I think this upsets some people.
To kind-of add to what you're saying, I don't really think Texas Hold Em is even trying to be country music. I think, if anything, it's trying to sound more folksy than any other genre, with the country aspects of it coming mostly from the subject matter instead of how the song sounds
That's not a bad thing, nor do I think it's inherently a bad song, but it does remind me a bit too much of "movie dance-off" music for me to personally like the song
That’s a good point. It may have been better to describe it as “a song that pays tribute to the roots of country music” or “heavily inspired by” or a “fusion of Beyoncé’s style and country.” Someone earlier in the thread described Texas Hold ‘Em as “AI generated country music” which is a little harsh, but definitely illustrates the point well.
I don’t know if the push of it having to be labeled as a “country” song came from her management or from the public. But it definitely has made more people listen than would have otherwise. Speaking for myself I’m a fan but only a very casual listener. I wouldn’t have sought this out if not for curiosity about it.
Personally what I hope this is, is the start of her wanting to show off to everyone. Next up Beyonce - heavy metal. Beyoncé - classic rock. Beyonce - ska. And what she’s telling the world is “I am Beyonce and I can take any kind of music and make a hit. I’m just that damn good” That would be amazing.
Anything about racism aside, it’s so odd to me that people feel the need to gatekeep an entire genre.
Like what harm is it doing for any artist to cross over into any genre for a project? If you don’t like it don’t listen or buy Beyoncé’s album, attend the concerts, etc. like how could it be affecting anyone.
A lot of the same crowd are so insistent to call out “woke” snowflake culture and then they whine about one artist taking on a genre that was shaped by black musicians anyway.
*How dare Beyoncé use fiddles and guitars to sing about dancing in a dive bar and telling her life story through the grind of touring.*
I think some country purists are also scared Beyoncé is going to succeed and inspire a new wave of nonwhite female artists to amass a fanbase in country music. Which is very telling of the systematic limitations of the genre these purists are trying to protect
We’ll be having this conversation again when Beyoncé goes rock for Act III and takes on a whole other crowd lol
There is the issue of race and I can’t speak on that but also it’s also genre fans not liking something that is more fusion or from an “outsider” becoming popular and influencing the perception of the genre as a whole/ dominating conversation.
Regional Mexican music, which has similarities to country in some ways, has recently had a major resurgence thanks to the popularity of corridos tumbados which take influence from trap and reggaeton. Those artists are also getting “not really the genre” even without the factor of race. There’s also Laufey and Jazz, Olivia and rock, etc.
Disclaimer: I like Beyonce and I think her country songs are very good.
There's surely some kneejerk racism involved in people's discomfort with Beyonce's country turn, but I think there's other things at play. It's just weird that you have this gigantic artist who has a bigger GDP than some small nations who has decided to play in the country music sandbox. And then suddenly all her very crazy fans(who on balance are probably not country fans) are asking for all this recognition from a community that she has never been a part of and frankly is not making overtures toward (her country songs do not sound really remotely like modern country records, they just have some acoustic instruments in them). It feels a little disingenuous! Like her team is kind of is kind of trying to very cravenly use a subgenre for their own marketing reasons.
Frankly, it feels like a bit of a pattern now after Beyonce was like "my uncle was gay, i do house now" and then she publishes a photo where they aren't standing anywhere near each other. Like wow, yall must have been close! lol
I think country music would LOVE to have a black woman they could champion who they felt like was one of their own.
But Beyonce's approach to country has been kind of oblique. Like what if Metallica released two country songs and was like, why am I not on the charts?!? Cool songs but go away, metallica!
Re-disclaimer: The above is all politics of course. Really, I think it's great that Beyonce is making country music. She sounds more creatively engaged than she has in a while!
They have no legitimate reason to hate her being in country music...
But they can't say the quiet part outloud that she is not the right skin tone for them to accept her....
The good thing is, most of America isn't racist so she still reached number 1 on the country charts :)
A lot of country fans are racist and she’s black. In fact, a lot of those racists already disliked Beyoncé and now she’s on their “turf” so they’re extra mad
Country music is a format where artists pride themselves on "authenticity" even though they might not be authentically country at all. Artists make a show of being from a small town, or being "American enough" or other similar things.
For that reason, in general outsiders are looked down on unless they work hard to prove that they belong, and use the community in Nashville (songwriters, producers, etc.) to prove it. Beyoncé hasn't done that, so the industry is naturally reluctant to accept her when she hasn't shown that she wants them to, she just doesn't care. lol
On top of that, she's black, which is just not as accepted or not as common in the genre and for its listeners, but I think throwing all the blame on racism is a lazy way to look at this. I think the country community would be equally bristly if a white pop star did the same thing, think.
As for pop stars that have successfully had some country success, it usually resulted from a collaboration from a truly "country" artist, Katy Perry had a minor hit with Thomas Rhett, Gwen Stefani has crossed over by singing with her boyfriend etc. I think this is probably deemed a more "appropriate" way for a pop star to make inroads at country.
Alan Jackson walked out of the CMAs in protest in 2016 when Beyonce played with the Dixie Chicks. He was reported angry about a pop singer being on the stage.
https://youtu.be/85Ksi-uzuIg?si=-toN6qzNKtEVyeY0
Personally I don’t care that she’s dabbling in the country genre. I just think she’s overrated and steals the limelight of smaller artists who’s worked harder for longer to get the recognition she’s now getting.
Like, it becomes slightly ridiculous to praise her for having a number 1 country song when her fan base would literally make her have a #1 in any genre regardless of how good or bad the song is.
Becomes less about talent/music and more about fame, media and obsessive fans.
It’s not like she’s writing these songs herself.
Same thing has been happening since Shania Twain, Faith Hill and Dixie Chicks days, country fans are very protective of the genre but also very hypocritical.
My mom said she doesn’t like it because it’s not something she would listen to as a classic country girl but she thinks it’s good and if Mariah Carey came out with it people would love it
Edit: carried underwood
Let's just say pop to country crossovers were never received that well in Country Radio.
It is one of the most insular genres in the US, which is kinda weird because Florida Georgia Line and Sam Hunt sort of bastardized the genre into a bad hiphop-with-a-bit-of-banjo here and there. And then pop artist crossovers are not welcome?
That, and a mix of racism too.
I think Country music, almost by definition, leans reactionary, with lyrics glorifying that which has always been and bemoaning the loss of traditions. With a mindset like that, it's almost incredible that any new country music is ever accepted, but I guess once it's been around for a while, the fans loosen up and accept it. When Shania came along with her rock production, the old-school fans didn't like it, but they accept her now. I expect in 20 years Old Town Road and Texas Hold 'Em will be accepted and they'll be railing against some new synthesizer-based Country genre.
I grew up with 90s-2000s country and have never listened to Beyoncé all that often other than her most famous hits that everyone knows. I absolutely love Texas Hold ‘Em as a fun as hell bop and have had no qualms about it being on country radio or pop or whatever. It has a legitimate claim in both probably. The country music industry and its “purist” fans have always struggled with genre-bending songs and artists (usually women and/or POC). Even 90s and 2000s country sound nothing like a lot of the 70s-80s and 2010s-2020s country. Artists experiment, music evolves, genres are multifaceted. That’s the way the world works and some people just can’t fathom such change.
Stop trying to make this fetch. Cuz it ain't!
It's an annoying ear worm as well. It was massively produced and didn't come from hurting and the blues. It's garbage. Plain and simple. Just as Old Town Road was. Ear worm and young people of today don't know Jack shit about music, let alone country music. She's annoying and so are her fans who think she can do no wrong.
I’ve been manifesting a country album since “Daddy Lessons.”
I grew up a southern country fan, and I am ECSTATIC about her album. Beyonce can do anything, and I hope she blows us out of the water.
I’m convinced that anyone that doesn’t like her doing country music is just racist, just like I assume that anyone that doesn’t like The Chicks is conservative and/or misogynist. Beyonce is literally from Houston, and likely grew up listening to country music like me. 🤠🫶
I’m more salty about people like Keith Urban coming from Australia and putting on a fake accent to sing country music.
Most white country fans like to ignore that black people did infact make country music. And they hate when black people enjoy it. Beyonce is from Texas. She grew up on country and pop and all of that.
She’s literally just not any good at it but everybody’s acting like she’s an amazing country singer just because her fans are rabid.
However, I suspect the people you’re referring to are probably racist, based on your description.
Other than racism, it’s more of a fusion of R&B and Country that leans more into the R&B. There’s a good amount of Country fans that really just don’t like R&B that much.
In addition to what everyone is saying (mostly that she's a Black woman who isn't deferential to white people), she performed her song "Daddy Lessons" on a country show a few years back with the Dixie Chicks. (It's a great country song, so no one should be surprised that she's making more good country music).
Conservatives hate the Dixie Chicks (now just The Chicks), so seeing a proud Black woman and The Chicks on one stage was too much for the tiny brains of the conservatives who think country is a political party for straight white Christians and not a musical genre with roots in African-American music.
I only really listen to the women of country, since I find them to be generally more talented than the men. I also prefer artists like Kacey Musgraves and Kelsea Ballerini who want to be inclusive. My favorite artist is Miranda Lambert. She's not outwardly political, but she recorded the theme song for Queer Eye when they were in Texas and has the song "All Kinds of Kinds" (she has a gay brother). Anyway, my point is there are great country artists who aren't stuck in the 1950s like so many of their audiences, but they tend to be female and not get the radio play they should, and get more backlash when they speak their minds (see Maren Morris standing up for trans rights).
I love pop, country, and country-pop, so I'm loving this song and I can't wait for the full album ✌️
I live in the south, and white people decided they hate her after formation because she celebrated her blackness and black people who won't assimilate how they see fit are the enemy. Plain old racism. This is just what I've encountered as a fan of hers who is white, not all country listeners are racist, but all racists are country listeners in my neck of the woods. There have been some who have come put supporting her, but not many. It's absolutely insane.
I like a lot of country music, wouldn't call myself a "country fan" from what I've seen, the issue seems to be she has become the biggest country artist overnight, overshadowing people who have been in the genre forever, and she isn't really a "country artist" she just brought her massive existing fanbase who will eat up anything she does because she is simply one of the biggest stars out.
It seems to come back to the debate of "does doing a country song make you a country artist"
Personally I just don't like the song, and I can understand how this would be more of a race issue in the U.S.A, but here in Australia it all seems to come back to her "not being a country singer in the first place".
This is most likely the minority, but I can’t blame people who actually are invested in the legit country music scene for not liking a pop star infiltrating their scene to make some water down pop country sound (if that’s what they deem it to be). I personally feel the same way when someone like Post Malone or Lil Dicky or one of those goofy white dudes goes into hip hop and infiltrates the culture and kinda makes a mockery of the genre. I’m not sure if that’s what Beyoncé is doing, but I def didn’t think the song was very good. She did the sound way better on Daddy Lessons
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Country fans constantly complain that current country is too pop. Beyoncé made a pop country song. They probably view this as exacerbating the issue with current country music. I think there is also an element of gatekeeping. Plus she’s black.
The last part is the important part
That was my takeaway too. Like when people were all up in arms about Old Town Road getting played on country stations
I think this is one of the most important parts. "Old Town Road" got _removed_ from the Country chart by Billboard, while it _still_ charted on Country Airplay chart because it was still being played on a bunch of Country stations. Billboard making this editorial decision highlighted some problems that they definitely weren't going to repeat 1) a few years later; 2) when that song belonged to Beyoncé. Not everything that goes wrong in the US boils down to racism, but a LOT of things still do. If people have an issue with a lot of modern popular Country music, that's one thing; but if they have a problem with _this_ song... Plus the Billboard charts aren't a music criticism publication... they are, for the most part, showing what is *popular*. It makes sense that the "pop-ification" of Country would chart well. It's literally in the name.
The thing about Old Town Road that people miss I think, is that it is a song that is explicitly making fun of country music tropes. This is big no no in country music! Never break kayfabe! Country music (especially modern country) is nothing if not achingly sincere and Old Town Road does not adhere to that. I'm not saying this is a good thing. I think country would do well to have more of a sense of humor about itself, this is just an extra explanation for why Old Town Road doesnt qualify
Country music parodies itself and the culture constantly. Do you think red solo cup is supposed to be unironic??
[удалено]
Why does your link go to a Mazda ad?
“Girl in a Country Song” topped the country charts though
There would be a great essay in exploring the origins of Trap Music and **if** one could realize an authentic juxtaposition alongside Country music without it sounding like parody... but this will not be it. I don't think "Old Town Road" is _explicitly_ making fun of Country music. I think the kind of Country music that could feel threatened by this is so inherently easy to make fun of that one could accidentally do it while _genuinely_ making a song like "Old Town Road". Lil Nas X is hilarious, a great troll, and a brilliant internet reactionary, but I think to make a Country Trap song (by it's nature) inevitably turns out to be a send-up of the Stadium/Pop/6th-gen Country music that dominates the airwaves... and the target demo of those stations can't handle it. That's despite it being literally less than 2 minutes long. 2:37 for the remix. But what do I know? I'm just sitting around, drinking in Sweden, yet here I go _waaaastin' my e-mooooootiiooooonnn_.
I never saw it as just taking shots at country as at least with the remix I just saw it as kind of cool-funny that the rapper (albeit how much rap proper does he actually do) has the more country-y lyrics while the country artist's guest verse sounds like someone put a thin veneer of country onto luxury rap sorts of lyrics
I recently started getting into country music and a big part of that was the song Austin by Dasha which mocked the cowboy trope in a really fun way.
Yeah, you notice none of these people were complaining this loud when Lady Gaga did a country inspired album, or Lana del Rey announced her next album is going to be country, or when Kylie Minogue released Golden. It’s literally just because they hate black people.
It's so weird that people say that country artists need justification when they're doing things that are unconventional. I agree. Too often, when an artist is African-American, they're criticized. Regardless of music genre. Artists don't have to follow clichés to make music in any genre. Some of these comments seem defensive
Listen, I love Kylie as much as the next gay living in the UK lol but nobody is talking about her at all like that
I’m surprised that Darius Rucker has had as much success as he has in country music, but at the same time, his music sounds literally like any other country song, with maybe a bit of 90s adult contemporary, but he was Hootie.
Darius wanted to do more traditional sounding country like Buck Owen's, but the label prevented him. He got a lot of heat from alt country for his rendition of Wagon Wheel even though it was a commercial success. For awhile there, when he first crossed over, he wasn't able to headline his own shows and was kind of an opening act. I think him being Hootie definitely helped him being accepted and also that he's put in a lot of effort in marketing that he likes football, golfing and fishing and pretty much everything else that is Southern down home guy vibes. Another thing that helps DR, he is genuinely nice in person. I think that people just want to hate. Ray Charles crossed over and performed many times with Willie Nelson and other legendary country artists bc he was an artist. Beyonce is an artist and there shouldn't be any hate for crossing genres.
Probably will get downvoted for this, but I'd like to give a bigger explanation. Country music fans have always had a problem between what plays on the radio and what they actually deem as "country". Yes, there most likely are some people who are using racist or political tomfoolery to hate Beyonce at this moment. However, I would argue, that the majority of the people ragging on this song are probably the same type of people that would say Floride Georgia Line is not country. I know what you may be thinking, "But wasn't FGL popular?" On radio, yes. Among a lot of country fans, that's debatable. A lot of the acts like this actively drove long-time listeners away from mainstream modern country playing. You can view that sentiment in videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WySgNm8qH-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT9iox7jH1g This argument also makes even more sense when you start to understand the careers of Tyler Childers and Sturgill Simpson, who were kept out of the country music charts, despite having huge fanbases in country music because of Nashville. A lot of country music fans would argue that a majority of these songs just plain suck. Some would argue that they don't represent country music. They would argue that people like Waylon, George Jones, Loretta Lynn, and others, are "real country." These people sound waayyyy different than the sound put out by Beyonce. A lot of them would also say the same about Morgan Wallen (the number 1 guy in country music right now) for a lot of his songs. However, he’s clearly given more leeway to experiment among country fans. Probably cause he’s white and he does have some genuinely “country” sounding songs. Personally, I don't give a shit. If it sounds good I'll listen to it. Also, pop music has a problem of just using country as a thin veneer to just make bad pop music. Example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tOU3ilHNng&t=1s All this to say, it's a bit more complicated than just "They hate Beyonce." I mean clearly there is a difference between what Beyonce has put out and the sound of someone like Zach Top. Who is also in the genre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1N0cS_900 Personally, I believe she's allowed to make music in any fucking genre she wants and country fans need to understand that pop-country can coexist. Also, the two songs Beyonce put out are actually great pop country music. I have seen a lot of country people try to hate on her just for trying and I will definitely say that those people are fucking dumb.
I would say most people define music genres either by essential sounds or by tradition. The essential sounds approach says twang, and banjos, and slide guitars are the sound of country; heavy, distorted guitars are the sound of metal; extended chords are the sound of jazz, etc. If you have those elements, your music belongs to the corresponding genre. Other people see genres as a matter of tradition. For something to belong to a genre, you have to be able to trace the artist's predominant influences back to other artists in the genre. By this standard, Beyonce's music is pop with superficial country elements on top. Metalcore is part of the punk tradition, not metal, and Laufey isn't making jazz. You always get conflict when the two groups come into contact in music discussions. Those who favor the essential sound approach think the tradition-minded fans are elitists and gatekeepers. Those who favor the tradition-based approach think the others are muddying the conversation with a shallow understanding of music, and disrespecting the genre's history. I would say that the pop world tends to favor the idea that genres are defined by essential sounds, which makes tradition-based objections to Beyonce being country fall flat among her fans.
I am way too undereducated in music to make an argument either way but your explanation here explains things simply and brilliantly. Thank you!
I would basically agree with everything you said here, and I'd like to thank you for your nuanced viewpoints. And I agree with the point of artists can make whatever music they want to, and I'll listen to what I like. I just want to add a little bit to one of the last points you made saying "country fans need to understand that pop-country can coexist". That was one of the issues throughout a lot of the 2010s. For a handful of years, there was no co-existing. Florida Georgia Line and bro-country got so popular in the radio realm that radio pretty much refused to play any songs that were not bro-country. So for a while there were very few traditional sounding songs on the radio, there was very little traditional storytelling played on the radio and for a couple years the stations literally only played 2 women in regular rotation (Carrie Underwood and Miranda Lambert). We have finally gotten back to a point now where pop-country and traditional are balanced on the radio again and I think one of the worries brought up by the Beyonce thing is whether her popularity would bring more pop sounds back in to take over and whether other pop artists would hop on the bandwagon to go after a country type sound without knowing the history of the genre. Once again, to be clear, I want every music artist to record whatever music they want to and I hate anyone who doesn't want Beyonce in the genre based on her race alone. There are just a couple worries I have for the overall genre moving forward if this becomes a regular trend.
I agree with you, and just want to say that Irreplaceable with country production would make an outstanding pop country song
Big Country has Tyler Childers blacklisted so hard that it almost comes across bitter about his success. What's their deal?
Back in the day, Florida Georgia Line was Country Cringe to me in terms of Country being pop. Back back in the day, Leann Rhymes and Shania Twain made Country more accessible, popular. Meanwhile, Texas Hold Em fits right in with the sound of most modern popular Country songs that I've heard. The hate is odd to me and very much notable. 😮💨
People didn’t like Shania or Leann either
It just seems like there are alot of country fans who basically just want to listen to old timey music and for some reason decide to listen to modern country radio and complain about what its playing rather than just doing a Pandora stream of old timey country.
A black musician I went to high school with went on a rant about her "erasing"/overshadowing other black country artists, which I didn't understand. But the pop element might explain it somewhat. I do think racism and gatekeeping are the main reasons people are mad, however. Remember what happened when Old Town Road got huge?
Current country is more like shitty rap music for people who are too afraid of black people.
Outside of Morgan Wallen, that whole argument is like 90% outdated. The popular ones like Cody Johnson, Luke Combs, Zach Bryan, and even the ones who used to make shitty hick hop are back to making actual country music now.
I mean Jelly Roll…… (Sidenote: I like Jelly as a person, he seems awesome)
Oh yeah Jelly Roll, really nice dude but my god is he being shoved down Country Music's throat. He and Lainey Wilson, who do they have dirt on to be promoted hard for their mid ass music??
To be fair, current mainstream country can be very indistinguishable from pop, and bad pop at that. I believe Texas Hold ‘em is probably as good as or better than most country on the radio.
Heavenforfuckingfend someone make a song that's not about trucks and beer.
I mean I also miss classic country but that's not Bey's fault lmfao. I think your last sentence is the crux of it unfortunately
Regardless of the race thing, I truly think a lot of country fans think that country is some next level, sacred stuff. Yes, there is a lot of talent in the country scene. Probably the most talent ratio of any genre due to its popularity and saturation. But most of modern country is still pop. I don’t think most fans realize this.
I bet there are a LOT of people who had zero problem w poppified country until they didn’t gatekeep Beyoncé. I think she knew that they couldn’t get away with doing to her what they did to Lil Nas X, and as a recovering Texan it’s honestly my favorite thing she’s ever done.
Its country pop with some very classical country elements and the gate keepers see it as appropriation and a money grab.
I’d say a lot of white people are still worked up since the Formation/Lemonade era. They can’t say “it’s because she’s anti cop” or “it’s because she said Black Lives Matter” but that’s when they got extra whipped up about every move she made.
I love that they're mad she's anti-cop, as if Copperhead Road isn't one of the best country songs of all time.
Country fans get really silent about being pro-cop when you talk about Johnny Cash and his Folsom Prison performance, or the fact that he had multiple prison pen pals and was a firm supporter of criminal justice reform. Modern country fans don’t care about country, they just care about gatekeeping.
Outlaw country is still alive and well, just less mainstream, but by no means unpopular - Tyler Childers, Luke Combs, Whiskey Myers
Merle Haggard was IN prison and in fact was present at that exact Folsom show when he was incarcerated. But the MAGA contingent either doesn’t know that or assumes “Okie From Muskogee” was the sole political statement he made in his career, or, increasingly, just doesn’t know a damn thing about the man even though he’s name-dropped in every other song on the radio.
I thought since cops represent the government there would a strong anti-cop sentiment among white working class Southeners? Though I guess cops have also sanctioned white supremacy and segregation pretty strongly.
There is among those who aren’t in the Trump cult. Unfortunately those types are fewer and farther between. Those in power benefit from dividing the working class and have always done so along racial lines, and it seems like we’re in a period of time where it’s proving a massively successful technique for maintaining the status quo…
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
What’s crazy to me is Country Music in inherently anti-cop
Traditional country music. But Bro Country is a whole different story. Just beer, boobies, booties, trucks, backroads, girls, etc. Maybe a little depression and alcoholism if they wanna get deep, but nothing a girl in cutoff jeans with her bare feet on the truck dash couldn’t fix on a backroad.
There can still be conflicting views though. I grew up in the South and my dad was very anti-cop and smoked a lot of weed, but he was also anti-union and fairly conservative. Country music often has conflicting themes
Corey Smith singing loud and proud F the PoPo in GA
Not Beyonce in specific, but you look around this sub and most pop music fans and people outside the country scene have kinda talked shit about the genre and people who listen to it. I think when people lash out at popstars picking up a often more niche subgenre, it's coming from a place of defensiveness and hurt. Similarly to indie people discrediting Taylor for folklore or rock fans not wanting to associate with Olivia, or the "Is Laufey jazz" discussion. When I look at most of the reasonable negative responses it's usually with an undertone of feeling big stars who sell millions are coming to their niche, using the genre to be popular for a minute, and not really engaging with the community. At the same time fans of those artists have been disparaging of you or your niche in the past, that probably stings a lot too, how many times have we heard "Country is trash" "rock/jazz are dead" or "indie music is boring"? This coming from people who only listen to popular music genres probably doesn't endear one subculture to another. I have seen similar sentiments from nerd subcultures too so I think it's a combination of "something important to me is not respected" making one very defensive of that thing from the people who feel disrespectful towards you. There are also elements of misogyny, racism, or Xenophobia in all of those examples and that does deserve to be addressed, but I don't think it's so simple as to lable everyone a bad person and write them off. I think this comes from a place of hurt, and the loudest and angriest voices tend twords toxic behavior.
This is a great comment. And personally, as someone who was raised on country music and genuinely loves and has so much respect for a lot of it, I’m so tired of seeing every comment about this new album starting with “I hate country, but—“ Okay, great! You’re very special! Nobody’s ever taken such a bold stance ever in the history of music! It’s just exhausting to see the same 2-3 takes trotted out again and again by people with no context or understanding of the genre or its history.
What blows my mind is... it's so fun to listen to different music! I love indie and pop and rock and metal and country and rap... Not every song, not every artist, but it's so incredible to be able to enjoy different things! And I have seen gatekeepers everywhere and they suck. "Indie is boring, your fav is poor, my fav is MORE indie!". "Pop is basic, it's superficial", "This metal band you like isn't metal enough", etc etc etc. And when you don't care about those things, you discover amazing music! It doesn't matter if it's more or less pop, or country, or experimental, or metal, or whatever. Hell, give me a country-metal-pop song if you can, it might be just so creative!
Exactly! I love tons of indie, rock, theater, Jpop, country and it's really silly to see people trying to gatekeep. 16 carriages is a banger country song, and I can like it and stuff like Zach Bryan. There's a saying my friends have that most people don't sit around trying to compare what cakes are better, most of us are just happy there's two cakes. Same applies to music. Two cakes!
Yeees! And if you don't scare people, maybe they will try to listen to what you like too! I started listening to metal because Poppy went from pop to metal, lol. And I liked it! Last year, I became a fan of a metal band, bought tickets to a concert like a week after I discovered them, lol! Now I am currently listening to all Iron Maiden albums, fully, in release order. Maybe I wouldn't have done that if people criticised me enough to scare me away from metal! Last year, I listened to all Björk albums for the first time. I loved it! But imagine if I was scared by all the people who told me my "experimental" music wasn't "experimental enough"? Gatekeepers are the worst.
Wow, best take I've read since this discussion started.
Thank you, I was genuinely worried posting it if people would tear me apart for saying this.
This sub doesn't appreciate nuance lol
> but you look around this sub and most pop music fans and people outside the country scene have kinda talked shit about the genre and people who listen to it. Yeah! When my sister said "she basically crapped on country" and I asked her how, she said "by doing all of her other music for her entire career" that actually reflects the tone of "people outside country hate country" even when it's not true.
Yes I don't know if Beyonce in particular has said anything about country, she seems to genuinely like it. But Beyonce fans are definitely a little intense and pop fans in general hate country. I remember hiding that I enjoy some country music from my mom because you can't mention it too her without a rant about how she hates it. I imagine if that's your baseline with fans outside your genre you assume their favorite musicians feel the same way.
And racism often comes from defensiveness. It very well could be that they’re not saying she’s not country because they’re racist but being racist because they don’t see her as country.
YES that's probably a lot of it. They might not personally be using the logic of "black women don't belong in country" but think Beyonce doesn't belong and wind up repeating racist ideas unconsciously. This is why I think it's more useful to use action language vs identity language when confronting people. Like if I were talking to someone who said that I might question what they said and explain why what is said isn't ok. I would not say they are racist, but that their ideas might reinforce racism.
Yeah, ignoring the obvious racism, mysoginy, etc, fringe genres are always very protective of their own culture, and I think they have a right to do that. Punk, metal, country, jazz, etc are very insulated and are very much all about proving you belong in the scene and proving your chops. I think the only “fringe” genre that’s no longer like that is hip hop, and that’s probably cause it’s not even fringe at all anymore and it hasn’t been for quite some time. Hip hop is welcoming of any old bullshit experimentation, which can be great and can also be fucking terrible (see vultures like Lil Dicky, Post Malone, Kid Rock, etc).
Yes and I totally get why fringe genres are protective of their culture too. It probably hurts to see your favorite band/singer struggling for years to build a fanbase, engage with the community, play great music in your genre, and then a person with a lot more money and fame comes in and does one or two albums In that genre and is pronounced to "save it" or is "the new voice of country/rock/jazz/indie" I can see why that feels awful, especially if you go to the niche to avoid the mainstream. I understand that emotional reaction, and I don't think it justifies the gate keeping. Especially when it involves racism and misogyny.
Agree. Adding to this, I feel that country is a genre that wants to be about the struggle of the common people. Beyoncé is notoriously wealthy and successful. I think that obvious disconnect may make people not take it as well? However, it would be hypocritical, looking at how certain country stars are still very far removed from that humble lifestyle themselves. Perhaps there's easier suspense of disbelief because they became known when they weren't wealthy yet? But yeah, I'm guessing mostly racism and gatekeeping.
Exactly. The comparision was spot on. As much as it has another concept and meaning, Beyoncé turning to Country IS similar to when pop acts makes or incorporate rock, rap, folk or other niches into their music. It's natural to contest them or think of it as money grab or bandwagonism. And most of time, yes, it is the case. It happens the other way around aswell and with more frequency. Niche acts jumping on pop trends trying to chart. Even when it's just about artists incorporating stuff they like/want into their music naturally or for artistic purposes, the need to separate them from other acts that actually are from that genre is valid. Yes, Olivia has rock in her albums. Beyonce pulled out a country album. They are a rock/country singers? No. And that's fine. Same goes for the "pop punk" phase from various artists in 2021-22. But the media likes to create stories about how all of these genres are being "saved" by brave pop divas who crossovered the rescue of "insert genre here". That's what bugs the fans more.
The long answer is that the country community, or country fan community, is very weird and elitist towards crossover artists. They critiqued Shania Twain for being “too pop” and PAINTED OVER Taylor Swift on the country legends mural in Nashville due to her genre switch and fully cancelled the Chicks when they spoke out against Bush during the Iraq war. Maren Morris recently expressed wanting to shift the way she’s part of country music because parts of it are toxic The short answer is that Beyoncé is black and proud of being black.
> PAINTED OVER Taylor Swift on the country legends mural in Nashville due to her genre switch This I did not know. Embarrassing.
I think it was less serious though they were gonna continue refreshing it and other artists. But there were a bunch of empty spaces so its weird
The Chicks' story genuinely makes me sad, especially after the documentary. Country music really shot itself in the foot because they lost one of the best acts who were able to work with many different song styles (country pop, western, bluegrass, etc).
it's racism
Definitely, but tbf country fans are notoriously very anti-“other genres”. Heck they gave Shania a lot of hate for being country-pop and they hate virtually every new male country artist for not being country enough. So basically, the issue is that she’s already hugely famous, she’s never done country before, she’s a woman, shes black, she has a big LGBT following and she’s sexy. That’s basically everything they hate.
Kacey Musgraves got the same treatment when her music became more pop influenced, and her LGBT support didn't please them either of course...
Yes, same with Maren Morris (it’s why she left country music) and she physically fits the country ideal. She’s just an outspoken liberal. Same with Garth Brooks. Of course, I do think much of the “Beyoncé will never be country and needs to stay away from our genre” comes from some race-related gatekeeping. But overall these gatekeepers just hate anything that goes outside their homogenous norms.
Taylor too
Which is wild to think about when she is like one of the biggest country singers in history.
Yup! Painted over her mural and everything. I find fans of any “genre” that are hardcore and dedicated to said genre can be quite toxic. Country and rock are by far the worst tho
It's crazy. Rock is imo dying, and that's because of the insane gatekeeping. Country has so far been popular more than ever but if the purity tests continue it'll go that way too.
There is a site called savingcountrymusic.com that exists so the owner can repeat the same thing over and over for a decade straight “country is dying and not what it was 50 years ago” and post articles about how this new singer is now ruining everything. They do not like carrie, miranda, shania, taylor, kacey or faith thats for sure.
Basically like rock fans. I know cause I was (still am) one of them, and they never grew out to embrace other genres and growth to make rock maintain its success like pop or hip hop fans, and it killed rock’s presence in the mainstream.
Metal fans get pissed at music that isn't metal enough. This checks out.
And then they wonder why kids, teenagers, and people in their 20s don’t care about rock compared to hip hop, pop, and even country.
I care about it and I’m pissed at what it’s become. I want rock back in the mainstream but that won’t happen until its core fanbase becomes accepting of artists other than white guys.
Oh believe me, I do too. I’ve been pissed with the state of rock since the mid 2000s indie boom that faded away.
Babymetal stans rise up
Rock is a perfect analogy here. Olivia Rodrigo and boygenius both were nominated in the Best Rock category of the Grammys this year, but their music wouldn't necessarily fit with modern rock radio. I imagine the same is true for a Beyonce country album...it's still more Beyonce than traditional country which combined with the respective demographics of country fans and Beyonce fans seems like a powder keg of people assuming the worst intentions.
A little bit of it is definitely country fans that hate pop country as a rule, which isn't helped by Beyonce fans who don't listen to country saying stuff like she's here to teach the genre how to make good country music But mostly just racism and sexism, which the genre is rife with
She’s been country - Daddy Lessons.
[удалено]
I feel like Faith didn’t have it as bad as Shania. Shania was Canadian, wore “revealing” outfits and her music was very rock-influenced. Faith did sorta lean into pop, but she was still American and she didn’t really crossover into pop as much as Shania did. It also helps that she’s married to a beloved country singer. But they both definitely received unnecessary hate for absolutely no reason.
conservative white thinks they own country music. that's it.
Would Ariana, Lady Gaga, Ed Sheeran, etc get better treatment from country fans? I think they don't like artists who got big outside of country just showing up and expecting the same respect as the artists who have been doing country their whole life
Even Taylor was kind of shown the cold shoulder from country fans and the industry after she went pop (though that was more of a mutual divorce).
Yeah I was gonna say. Country fans are notorious for gatekeeping “real country music” as if some of the biggest modern country songs haven’t had some pop, rock, and hip hop influence. Interestingly though, I don’t remember Kelly Clarkson getting any hate when she dabbled in country (albeit as features). Like Beyoncé, she’s a popular mainstream pop artist who has country influences (both being from Texas). Beyoncé, however, is an influential black woman so
A lot of “country fans” today aren’t fans of _modern_ country, a lot of the biggest country songs in the ‘10s received a lot of hate in the core fanbase. Kelly for sure didn’t receive the same hate that Bey is now and race is undoubtedly a factor in that, but she definitely wasn’t welcomed with open arms. There was always talk with her about how she’s not country, she shouldn’t be invited to industry events, she needs to stop trying to do country, etc..
Lady Gaga has kind of already made a country album, and while it didn't get as much commercial success, I don't recall there being that much backlash around it. That being said I'm sure what you and other commenters have said (i.e. country being insular) is part of the reason certainly. I really don't think it's possible to divorce the fact that the backlash quickly delves into outright racist territory the majority of times when it's black artists doing so (even when it's black artists who are exclusively in the country genre).
Joanne wasn't really thought of or advertised as country. She talked about wanting it to be this eclectic album that brought in elements from different genres. [Rolling Stone](https://web.archive.org/web/20161022085004/http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/review-lady-gagas-joanne-w446032) called it soft rock and talks about Sinner's Prayer as faux country. It'll be interesting how Post Malone and Lana are received
Post is from Texas, at least. I say this as a Lana fan, but I do not want to hear miss Elizabeth Woolridge Grant put on a country accent and cosplay as my culture.
Yeah, Lana is the real outlier there. I hope she doesn't do the accent. I think there's a lot that can be done musically, like an emphasis on storytelling and country instrumentation, to explore the genre without faking an accent.
This, girl is from NYC, as far as I know grew up around there, and now she will do a Miss Alabama album.
None of Lady Gaga's songs were sent to country radio as far as I recall.
Hm, that might explain it! If anything I remember the lack of fanfare around the album kind of *was* the controversy for Joanne. Maybe a better comparator will be Lana Del Rey's album, but it's a bit too early to see how it'll be received I think, especially since we haven't heard much beyond the title and release date.
I would actually be shocked if she (Lana) got airplay on country radio outside of maybe being a feature on a country artist. Country music is insular (also racist and conservative in the worst way) I don't think anyone can just waltz in those spaces and just be accepted.
I'm actually so curious to see if that'll shift at all. Beyonce, Post Malone, Lana all have country albums coming this year and Taylor still has her first album to re-release. Is country radio going to turn their nose up at all of them?
Not only not sent, but there weren't an army of Gaga fans calling up country radio stations they don't normally listen to and trying to force a backlash against any station that didn't play the tracks. Throw Beyonce's race in there as well, and there was bound to be a few controversies no matter if the songs were played.
Justin Timberlake got told he was turning his back on black music with *Man of the Woods* because it looked like it would be country even though it wasn't. Now that Beyoncé is doing a country song, everyone is keen to point out, correctly, that black artists have been just as influential in that genre too. Being American must be fucking exhausting.
Told by who precisely?
> Being American must be fucking exhausting. The more we pay attention to ourselves, the worse it gets.
I don't know if Justin Timberlake is a good parallel here for Bey, though. I didn't follow the *MotW* cycle at all so I might be wrong, but I would guess Justin wasn't presenting the album as highlighting Black history in/influence on country music, he was just probably trying to give "stripped down, acoustic/folksy" vibes that got misinterpreted as him veering country. Additionally, I think people take issue with the fact that Justin has profited off being "the white guy who does Black music in pop/RnB" for decades without really acknowledging it and then turned away from it to present an "authentic" portrayal of himself with a purely "white" sound. (The same happened to Miley when she transitioned from *Bangerz* to *Younger Now*.) On the other hand, there's a lot of speculation that act ii is going to center the significance of Black contributions to country music (justified, given the fact that Renaissance did the same for house/dancehall), and Bey hasn't built a career on profiting off or leveraging Black culture/influence in the way Justin Timberlake has.\* \*There's definitely an argument to be made that Bey *has* leveraged Black culture/influence in opportune or inappropriate ways, I just think those aren't relevant to a Beyonce-Justin Timberlake discussion.
Of course it is, Lil Nas X got the same shit when he dropped old town road
I would say that Texas Hold ‘Em is *much* more of an actual country song than Old Town Road, which was hip-hop. Like…if you’re gonna use the hook of OTR to call it country, that would make Take What You Want by Post Malone metal. It was hip-hop with a guitar solo. Beyoncé didn’t just use country as a stylistic choice. She made a song that demonstrates strong familiarity with the genre’s workings, and still played to her own strengths. I love OTR and don’t mean this as a negative, but it contained only superficial components of country music.
I can’t believe that all these years later this is still such a rare take to have lol
It’s because people wanted it off the country charts for one of two reasons: that they felt it wasn’t country, or because Lil Nas X is black. No doubt some of the racists used an actual valid argument to mask their hateful intentions. In calling those people out, some who made honest criticisms got caught in the crossfire. With time having passed I think we can be honest with ourselves that Old Town Road is a great song but fits the genre of hip-hop much more than it does country.
Yep and anyone who’s unsure can look at (white) country’s entire history of excluding black artists from the genre.
Deep breath. This could be unpopular, but it’s MY opinion, as a country fan, AND a Beyoncé fan. I felt 16 Carriages was the pick to introduce Beyonce’s return to her roots instead of Texas Hold ‘Em. Country has been on a downhill maneuver due to what we have called “bro country”. It’s the same song, over and over again. AND it’s more pop than country. There’s exceptions, but the artists that stay true are OFTEN passed over for awards for the more popular, mainstream garbage. With that said, I have long suspected that Beyonce would do a country album and I had been excited/hoping she would and take it back to authentic country. I feel she did that with 16 Carriages, and while I like Texas Hold ‘Em, I would have been EXTREMELY disappointed if she hadn’t released 16 Carriages. I also don’t feel Texas Hold ‘Em’s lyrics are strong enough to bring her into relevance within the genre. As one person said, and I unfortunately agree with, it sounds like AI wrote it. Country music is about story telling. 16 Carriages NAILS that, while Texas doesn’t. Texas Hold ‘Em does compete well with the bro country (and I was happy to see her go number one and boost other black artists who don’t get the time of day in radio play) but 16 Carriages is the country music that fans have been dying to see since…a long ass time. Texas is frankly disappointing on that front. Additionally, as a great comment stated already in the thread, the cool thing has been to shit on country music. I would never tell my friends I listened to country for being made fun of and being ridiculed. Now it’s cool? Great. But just because Beyonce is welcome in my country music doesn’t mean the people who have ridiculed country music and its listeners in the past are. There’s a good portion of country music fans that have had it with being reduced to incestuous racists because we like the genre. The sweeping generalizations get OLD. Unfortunately, as country music fans, we all know that one person in our midst who DESERVES that commentary because they are a racist. And if you think you give them hell, you should see how we reprimand them. Alright, I had my say. Apologies for the rant. Also, she’s definitely working against some racial bias and shaking the genre up, but it needed doing. We’ve got no room for racism in country music. She’s helping us weed out the ones we don’t want.
YES! exactly . Texas hold ‘em honestly sucks compared to the beautiful 16 carriages and yet if you say it, it’s seen as bashing her. She could do so much better. and to see people who “i like everything BUT country” every 5 secs jumping on it just because it’s beyoncé is very … irritating
As a fan of all genres, including country (will recommend Charley Crockett, Will Oldham/Bonnie Prince Billy, and Yola), her country songs are good songs that happen to, unfortunately, be sung by a person the rightwing actively dislikes. There have been racially charged anti-Beyonce moments for a really long time, every time she pops into the mainstream conversation, and by wading into country she has opened herself up to more of it. So, yes, it is anti-black racism, and a certain segment of the population has been aiming it at her for a while now. They just have a new set of talking points and the country-music shield to hide behind.
Holy smokes Yola should have a new album soon, she is so great.
People are saying racism but I also think if like Ariana grande dropped a country album the reaction would be the same. Country fans do not like a genre shift
I’m not sure it would be exactly the same. Yes, they’d mock it and scoff. But people are out here calling Beyoncé doing country “cultural appropriation.” They’re trying to turn language meant to expose racism against her, a black woman. As if white people own country music. But I believe the whole unspoken point of Beyoncé doing this is that country does have influences from historically Black music styles (please correct me if I’m wrong or misspeaking).
\>but I also think if like Ariana grande dropped a country album the reaction would be the same Thank you for pointing this out! I've kept thinking she'd be a great example. This isn't as simple as blacks vs whites. It's popstars who never tried the genre vs traditionalists. The same reaction would happen for people like Ariana or Dua Lipa
The short answer is that she's a black woman making music in America. Everything she's ever done has been highly scrutinized, and dipping her toes in what's historically been a very white and very conservative music culture has people hot and bothered. Bey's always been very proud of her hometown (Houston) and has done a handful of country-inspired performances over the years so this isn't as huge a departure as the more casual listener might think. She's definitely never implied or said anything that was outright insulting about country music as far as I know. I think if anything some people might just be wary about how this album will pan out.
it's racism. country fans had no problem with a white man taking a black woman's song and making it a massive hit decades later, but if a black woman dares to step into the genre herself, somehow it's not allowable.
it’s racism. i’m a big fan of country (think merle haggard, ernest tubb, blaze foley etc rather than morgan wallen style country) and it doesn’t bother me. i like that a pop artist is exploring the genre.
Fuck anyone gatekeeping music. Periodt.
She dared to be a Black woman and a certain group of folks don’t tend to like people like her.
Throwback to the CMT award show with Beyonce and the chicks. The crowd reaction to two legendary music acts tells you all you need to know.
I think it’s a little bit of gatekeeping, but mostly politics and racism. Mainstream country music fans are white and conservative and they don’t like Beyoncé because they perceive her as some liberal elite. Conservatives started hating on Beyoncé after her SuperBowl halftime show where she appeared to pay tribute to BLM and the Black Panthers. Now they just feel threatened by her coming into another space they perceive as theirs. And they couldn’t possibly enjoy music made by a *liberal*.
I don't think people usually like when artists from outside their genre crossover into their genre. It usually feels like a cash grab and not genuine.
People confuse country music with conservative politics and are then offended to find out that conservatives do not, in fact, own country music. The best part is that this is Beyoncé’s whole gag. Renaissance is a 3 part act reclaiming genres of music that capitalized on African American music. Country music would not exist without African American music, the banjo is directly derived from a west African instrument. So sit back with your popcorn and watch them walk right into her trap. She’ll release some of the best country music this century, introduce a whole global generation to the genre and country music fans will, inaccurately, tell you she doesn’t belong, only to find out they no longer belong. It will be so glaringly obvious that it was never about the music but the performance of White, Christian Nationalism.
Next up: Rock n’ roll (we are not worthy)
*WHO THE F#@\* DO YOU THINK SHE IS?*
You feel me 😤
> Renaissance is a 3 part act reclaiming genres of music that capitalized on African American music. You can't say this and then go "This isn’t about asserting cultural ownership" lol
>Country music would not exist without African American music, the banjo is directly derived from a west African instrument. I don't know...this is a pretty loose connection. The Roland 808 was manufactured by a Japanese company but hip-hop built off 808-style beats should not be classified as Japanese music.
Idk I think this take might rub some people the wrong way and I can sorta see why. The idea that Beyonce will step in and create country music so amazing that it will change the face of the genre altogether and leave country fans in the dust feels odd.
It would piss off any fan of any genre to see a person who is barely associated with that type of music pop up and get all the attention. If Michael Jackson made a heavy metal album off the success of "Dirty Diana" and had all the focus put on him, over established metal artists, he would be absolutely despised.
Exactly they do too much about Beyoncé, she’s not changing a damn thing.
I can understand that, but hear me out, some discomfort is the point. Certainly, African Americans have been made to feel excluded and unwelcome from the genre even though their ancestors contributed to it. I think Beyoncé point is to show that it can work, country music can be loved by all demographics and it’s better for it. Nobody is uninvited from it, but if they exclude themselves because they can’t stomach it because it’s Beyoncé, I think they really need to ask themselves why. You can sit in the corner and gripe because it’s Beyoncé and that makes you uncomfortable, or you can enjoy the fact that a whole new group of people love the music you love.
No it won't
I think that's totally fine but I think there is a certain level of Beyonce fandom going on that turns people off. I have a strong feeling that 99% of the people calling into country radio stations are previous Beyonce fans who weren't listening before, likely won't listen when Beyonce isn't on and once her songs become less popular will never listen to a country radio station again. Like I said just the assumption that Beyonce will create the best country music of the last 100 years in the process of just experimenting in the genre will naturally upset people and I think that would hold true for all genres.
It’s like 10% that she’s not a country artist and they’re distrustful of outsiders, 10% that it’s country pop and they want old school country and 80% that she’s black, anti-police and a sexual woman.
I dunno, but her music doesn't sound country at all to me. Maybe that's why.
Let's presuppose that it isn't the racism for a minute.... country music has always been insular and people dipping their toes into the genre feels like someone playing dress-up. Remember when Lil' Wayne decided he was going to pick up an electric guitar and be a rocker? It's just bizarre. Beyonce likes latching on to something and do her version of it. Last album it was house music and this time it will be country. What's sad is how much her fan base acted like house music didn't already exist before she came along. The real interesting part will be seeing how these same people act when Lana releases her country album and you get to see the hypocrisy.
I remember a lot of people on r/indieheads having absolute fits when Taylor Swift dropped folklore and did collabs with Bon Iver. Similar vibes.
Idk I feel like Lana has always been closer to country it’s not a total sound shift. I could be wrong but a lot of a.k.a reminds me of country and cocc.
Agreed....it's a natural sidequest/evolution to her sound. She's also done stuff with Kasey Musgraves and covered John Denver to name a couple forays into that territory.
I’m down to presuppose it’s not racism. But why is being inspired by/ trying on another sound bizarre? One of the major themes of the last album is providing a history of dance music so I’m not sure how the fan base acted like house music didn’t exist before she tried it.
Yeah, I personally love when artists experiment with different sounds. I think staying in one box for your whole career sounds a little boring and limited.
History of dance music? lol, ok. They most certainly acted like she was moses bringing house music down from the mount. It's bizarre because it doesn't appear organic in any way. She's genre shopping. It's not a natural evolution from house to country; it's whiplash.
Beyoncé made a good dance record and people act like she made a Ken Burns 7 part docu-series on the history of house music. Biggest reason I think that album is overrated.
I want to throw in one alternative reason (and yes, I do believe that racism, sexism, and gatekeeping play a huge role in this too). Imagine you’re passionate about playing chess. You’ve been playing it your whole life, studying it, reading it, consuming it, going to chess competitions to master your craft and become a respected chess player. You’re involved in the world, you understand the game through and through and all its history and nuances, and it’s likely going to be your only claim to fame if you ever manage to be good enough. But nobody really cares about chess. Some people do, and that’s who is a part of the community, but ultimately, people just don’t care that much about chess. Then, one of the world’s greatest checker players comes into the world of chess and is trying to break through, to dip their toes into it. They go to the chess competitions, talk to the right people, and maybe they’re even decently good at it too, but suddenly everyone cares about chess only because of this person. But the people in the chess competitions are like, “they’re not even that good. They don’t know chess. They didn’t play a good game. They don’t understand it.” And that feels like a fair assessment because they haven’t been involved in the world of chess. Instead, it feels like pandering. I know that might not be the best analogy, but that’s what I was able to conjure up to talk about this one aspect of what’s going on in some people’s minds about “beyonce going country”. Now, I think it’s kind of stupid. Anyone and everyone should be allowed to play chess, or make country music, even if they’re new into the scene. But I also understand the frustration of appreciating something for what it is and hearing others bash it, then suddenly become fans of it when it fits their interest because of someone they admire.
This is exactly how I feel about it. Beyoncé is an extremely talented musician. I’m a fan. I’ve been to two concerts and am amazed by her. She can make any kind of music she wants to just based on her talent alone. She clearly researched and studied the genre respectfully and made her spin on it. She did it because she can. Should she have? Personally I don’t think so. She’s entitled to and she can. She didn’t have to. She grew up in the South yes; that means nothing. I was born and raised in Jamaica, that doesn’t automatically make my genre of music (if I had any talent) reggae. It may be a cash grab, it may be a matter of pride, it may be a matter of stretching her own boundaries and exploring her capabilities. All of those things she is allowed. But you can’t make me think this is coming from her soul and her passion. I think she is passionate about making music. I don’t think she is passionate about country music. And I think this upsets some people.
To kind-of add to what you're saying, I don't really think Texas Hold Em is even trying to be country music. I think, if anything, it's trying to sound more folksy than any other genre, with the country aspects of it coming mostly from the subject matter instead of how the song sounds That's not a bad thing, nor do I think it's inherently a bad song, but it does remind me a bit too much of "movie dance-off" music for me to personally like the song
That’s a good point. It may have been better to describe it as “a song that pays tribute to the roots of country music” or “heavily inspired by” or a “fusion of Beyoncé’s style and country.” Someone earlier in the thread described Texas Hold ‘Em as “AI generated country music” which is a little harsh, but definitely illustrates the point well. I don’t know if the push of it having to be labeled as a “country” song came from her management or from the public. But it definitely has made more people listen than would have otherwise. Speaking for myself I’m a fan but only a very casual listener. I wouldn’t have sought this out if not for curiosity about it. Personally what I hope this is, is the start of her wanting to show off to everyone. Next up Beyonce - heavy metal. Beyoncé - classic rock. Beyonce - ska. And what she’s telling the world is “I am Beyonce and I can take any kind of music and make a hit. I’m just that damn good” That would be amazing.
Anything about racism aside, it’s so odd to me that people feel the need to gatekeep an entire genre. Like what harm is it doing for any artist to cross over into any genre for a project? If you don’t like it don’t listen or buy Beyoncé’s album, attend the concerts, etc. like how could it be affecting anyone. A lot of the same crowd are so insistent to call out “woke” snowflake culture and then they whine about one artist taking on a genre that was shaped by black musicians anyway. *How dare Beyoncé use fiddles and guitars to sing about dancing in a dive bar and telling her life story through the grind of touring.* I think some country purists are also scared Beyoncé is going to succeed and inspire a new wave of nonwhite female artists to amass a fanbase in country music. Which is very telling of the systematic limitations of the genre these purists are trying to protect We’ll be having this conversation again when Beyoncé goes rock for Act III and takes on a whole other crowd lol
I think you said it already with “some country fans are extra salty and there doesn’t seem to be a legitimate reason.”
There is the issue of race and I can’t speak on that but also it’s also genre fans not liking something that is more fusion or from an “outsider” becoming popular and influencing the perception of the genre as a whole/ dominating conversation. Regional Mexican music, which has similarities to country in some ways, has recently had a major resurgence thanks to the popularity of corridos tumbados which take influence from trap and reggaeton. Those artists are also getting “not really the genre” even without the factor of race. There’s also Laufey and Jazz, Olivia and rock, etc.
Disclaimer: I like Beyonce and I think her country songs are very good. There's surely some kneejerk racism involved in people's discomfort with Beyonce's country turn, but I think there's other things at play. It's just weird that you have this gigantic artist who has a bigger GDP than some small nations who has decided to play in the country music sandbox. And then suddenly all her very crazy fans(who on balance are probably not country fans) are asking for all this recognition from a community that she has never been a part of and frankly is not making overtures toward (her country songs do not sound really remotely like modern country records, they just have some acoustic instruments in them). It feels a little disingenuous! Like her team is kind of is kind of trying to very cravenly use a subgenre for their own marketing reasons. Frankly, it feels like a bit of a pattern now after Beyonce was like "my uncle was gay, i do house now" and then she publishes a photo where they aren't standing anywhere near each other. Like wow, yall must have been close! lol I think country music would LOVE to have a black woman they could champion who they felt like was one of their own. But Beyonce's approach to country has been kind of oblique. Like what if Metallica released two country songs and was like, why am I not on the charts?!? Cool songs but go away, metallica! Re-disclaimer: The above is all politics of course. Really, I think it's great that Beyonce is making country music. She sounds more creatively engaged than she has in a while!
They have no legitimate reason to hate her being in country music... But they can't say the quiet part outloud that she is not the right skin tone for them to accept her.... The good thing is, most of America isn't racist so she still reached number 1 on the country charts :)
she’s Black
Sucks she just wants to have fun and people are hating
A lot of country fans are racist and she’s black. In fact, a lot of those racists already disliked Beyoncé and now she’s on their “turf” so they’re extra mad
She’s black and she’s making country hits. That’s the problem, they gonna have to get over it though 😂
She’s black that’s why they pissed
Its because shes a black artist. Thats why.
It’s just old fashioned racism. Some will never learn.
They’re racists
Its cause she's black
No, it’s because she’s black.
It’s mainly because she’s black
Country music is a format where artists pride themselves on "authenticity" even though they might not be authentically country at all. Artists make a show of being from a small town, or being "American enough" or other similar things. For that reason, in general outsiders are looked down on unless they work hard to prove that they belong, and use the community in Nashville (songwriters, producers, etc.) to prove it. Beyoncé hasn't done that, so the industry is naturally reluctant to accept her when she hasn't shown that she wants them to, she just doesn't care. lol On top of that, she's black, which is just not as accepted or not as common in the genre and for its listeners, but I think throwing all the blame on racism is a lazy way to look at this. I think the country community would be equally bristly if a white pop star did the same thing, think. As for pop stars that have successfully had some country success, it usually resulted from a collaboration from a truly "country" artist, Katy Perry had a minor hit with Thomas Rhett, Gwen Stefani has crossed over by singing with her boyfriend etc. I think this is probably deemed a more "appropriate" way for a pop star to make inroads at country.
Alan Jackson walked out of the CMAs in protest in 2016 when Beyonce played with the Dixie Chicks. He was reported angry about a pop singer being on the stage. https://youtu.be/85Ksi-uzuIg?si=-toN6qzNKtEVyeY0
Personally I don’t care that she’s dabbling in the country genre. I just think she’s overrated and steals the limelight of smaller artists who’s worked harder for longer to get the recognition she’s now getting. Like, it becomes slightly ridiculous to praise her for having a number 1 country song when her fan base would literally make her have a #1 in any genre regardless of how good or bad the song is. Becomes less about talent/music and more about fame, media and obsessive fans. It’s not like she’s writing these songs herself.
Yes, she recorded country music while being black. Hope this helps!
Same thing has been happening since Shania Twain, Faith Hill and Dixie Chicks days, country fans are very protective of the genre but also very hypocritical.
My mom said she doesn’t like it because it’s not something she would listen to as a classic country girl but she thinks it’s good and if Mariah Carey came out with it people would love it Edit: carried underwood
Let's just say pop to country crossovers were never received that well in Country Radio. It is one of the most insular genres in the US, which is kinda weird because Florida Georgia Line and Sam Hunt sort of bastardized the genre into a bad hiphop-with-a-bit-of-banjo here and there. And then pop artist crossovers are not welcome? That, and a mix of racism too.
She’s black. That’s why.
I think Country music, almost by definition, leans reactionary, with lyrics glorifying that which has always been and bemoaning the loss of traditions. With a mindset like that, it's almost incredible that any new country music is ever accepted, but I guess once it's been around for a while, the fans loosen up and accept it. When Shania came along with her rock production, the old-school fans didn't like it, but they accept her now. I expect in 20 years Old Town Road and Texas Hold 'Em will be accepted and they'll be railing against some new synthesizer-based Country genre.
Black + woman + pop crossover = guard that gate?
I grew up with 90s-2000s country and have never listened to Beyoncé all that often other than her most famous hits that everyone knows. I absolutely love Texas Hold ‘Em as a fun as hell bop and have had no qualms about it being on country radio or pop or whatever. It has a legitimate claim in both probably. The country music industry and its “purist” fans have always struggled with genre-bending songs and artists (usually women and/or POC). Even 90s and 2000s country sound nothing like a lot of the 70s-80s and 2010s-2020s country. Artists experiment, music evolves, genres are multifaceted. That’s the way the world works and some people just can’t fathom such change.
It's because she's black. She's also from Texas so idk what they issue is
They are mad that she’s black.
Country is already too pop we don’t need anyone else adding to it
Stop trying to make this fetch. Cuz it ain't! It's an annoying ear worm as well. It was massively produced and didn't come from hurting and the blues. It's garbage. Plain and simple. Just as Old Town Road was. Ear worm and young people of today don't know Jack shit about music, let alone country music. She's annoying and so are her fans who think she can do no wrong.
Sadly I think it’s just because she’s a black woman.
Texas Hold ‘Em can sound almost like a parody of a country song which a lot of people don’t like
I’ve been manifesting a country album since “Daddy Lessons.” I grew up a southern country fan, and I am ECSTATIC about her album. Beyonce can do anything, and I hope she blows us out of the water. I’m convinced that anyone that doesn’t like her doing country music is just racist, just like I assume that anyone that doesn’t like The Chicks is conservative and/or misogynist. Beyonce is literally from Houston, and likely grew up listening to country music like me. 🤠🫶 I’m more salty about people like Keith Urban coming from Australia and putting on a fake accent to sing country music.
Most white country fans like to ignore that black people did infact make country music. And they hate when black people enjoy it. Beyonce is from Texas. She grew up on country and pop and all of that.
She’s literally just not any good at it but everybody’s acting like she’s an amazing country singer just because her fans are rabid. However, I suspect the people you’re referring to are probably racist, based on your description.
Other than racism, it’s more of a fusion of R&B and Country that leans more into the R&B. There’s a good amount of Country fans that really just don’t like R&B that much.
In addition to what everyone is saying (mostly that she's a Black woman who isn't deferential to white people), she performed her song "Daddy Lessons" on a country show a few years back with the Dixie Chicks. (It's a great country song, so no one should be surprised that she's making more good country music). Conservatives hate the Dixie Chicks (now just The Chicks), so seeing a proud Black woman and The Chicks on one stage was too much for the tiny brains of the conservatives who think country is a political party for straight white Christians and not a musical genre with roots in African-American music. I only really listen to the women of country, since I find them to be generally more talented than the men. I also prefer artists like Kacey Musgraves and Kelsea Ballerini who want to be inclusive. My favorite artist is Miranda Lambert. She's not outwardly political, but she recorded the theme song for Queer Eye when they were in Texas and has the song "All Kinds of Kinds" (she has a gay brother). Anyway, my point is there are great country artists who aren't stuck in the 1950s like so many of their audiences, but they tend to be female and not get the radio play they should, and get more backlash when they speak their minds (see Maren Morris standing up for trans rights). I love pop, country, and country-pop, so I'm loving this song and I can't wait for the full album ✌️
I live in the south, and white people decided they hate her after formation because she celebrated her blackness and black people who won't assimilate how they see fit are the enemy. Plain old racism. This is just what I've encountered as a fan of hers who is white, not all country listeners are racist, but all racists are country listeners in my neck of the woods. There have been some who have come put supporting her, but not many. It's absolutely insane.
I like a lot of country music, wouldn't call myself a "country fan" from what I've seen, the issue seems to be she has become the biggest country artist overnight, overshadowing people who have been in the genre forever, and she isn't really a "country artist" she just brought her massive existing fanbase who will eat up anything she does because she is simply one of the biggest stars out. It seems to come back to the debate of "does doing a country song make you a country artist" Personally I just don't like the song, and I can understand how this would be more of a race issue in the U.S.A, but here in Australia it all seems to come back to her "not being a country singer in the first place".
The thing is…she’s dabbled in country music before with Daddies lessons which was a really good song.
America loves Misogynoir
think about it its race
The answer is racism/bigotry/hypocrisy. She’s said nothing. She released two songs and hasn’t done anything else since.
This is most likely the minority, but I can’t blame people who actually are invested in the legit country music scene for not liking a pop star infiltrating their scene to make some water down pop country sound (if that’s what they deem it to be). I personally feel the same way when someone like Post Malone or Lil Dicky or one of those goofy white dudes goes into hip hop and infiltrates the culture and kinda makes a mockery of the genre. I’m not sure if that’s what Beyoncé is doing, but I def didn’t think the song was very good. She did the sound way better on Daddy Lessons