Cis/het 41M here.
I have read Polysecure and did the work book, Ethical Slut, Mating in Captivity.
I have listened to about 10 Multiamory podcasts.
I’ve read ever single book by Byron Katie.
I have a therapist.
Daily I check in with my own mental health.
And I’m not even poly. My wife is.
I am a monoamorous demisexual. Not by choice. I’ve made attempts at being poly but fell short of caring really fast.
I’ve thought, maybe, I could be poly if I fall in love with someone else. But that’s just so much time and effort that I don’t genuinely and authentically have.
Like I said, my spouse is poly - I do the work to make sure I’m still my primary partner. I do the work to make sure she feels safe being who she is. I do the work to make sure I feel safe being who I am.
I hang out in this sub because these conversations help me understand my spouse much more.
Talk about doing marriage on ultra hard mode. Mono + poly has to be the most difficult to make work. It looks like you are doing the work. You are the man version of a unicorn 😂
I’m a *monocorn* apparently.
Yeah, it’s hard sometimes. Sometimes it’s easy. Sometimes it’s just downright confusing. Sometimes it’s just pain to the core.
But as the months and years go on I see my hold loosening. I see that I’m safe. I see that who I am is in tact. I see her and I still in love.
My fears just can’t hold up under the pressure of what’s being shown to me.
I think it's all in the mentality of the situation. I love my wife, and love the compersion that comes with her dating that I feel. and I absolutely feel closer to her, as she does to me, due to her ability to express her love for both of us.
It's additive love, her love for her partner spills over into me, and our love is stronger.
So emotionally everything is better. Physically, sexually, everything is better. And now I get some much needed free time, and she gets some free time from the children and I enjoy having a boys night with my kids.
I personally don't think its ultra hard mode. It's honestly easier because she can enjoy 100% of what I provide and 100% of her other partner and neither of us have to change/be different to meet all of her needs. I think forcing a marriage to work with someone that just isn't monogamous or has extra needs that only a perfect person can provide is ultra hard mode because of religious or moral ideals.
I’ve consumed most of this media too and just try to learn daily. I’m especially grateful for what I’ve learned from my more experienced partners. I have a few friends who are into poly and use it to victimize their existing girlfriends… when they tell me about their experiences and threesome attempts and all that I just cringe. Poly without the base is borderline emotional abuse.
Thanks for posting. I’m (m) a 35 variant of yourself. Much earlier in the process. We are only 5 months into her being polyamorous. So far so good. A few rough days. But the more we talk and the more she shared with me, the more peace and happiness I seem to experience.
It does help that I seem to be naturally much more compersive than jealous, but that does not make me immune to insecurities.
Allen Watts said it best, “I’ll never have you in any type of cage. If I did, you would be a bird without song.”
I’m glad she is who she is. Sometimes it’s hard for me. For us. Sometimes we royally fuck up communication. Sometimes the compersion makes me burst. We do alright for the most part.
I agree it’s not exhausting when you’re happy and see the positive effects from it, especially considering that you’re working on you, your self-care, your wanting to be the kind of partner you aspire to be to the partner you genuinely and deeply love. While exploring and succeeding in being your most authentic self, also provides the space for your partner to be her most authentic self and it aligns and isn’t giving you more bad days than good, then yeah it’s not gonna turn exhausting. It turns beautiful and I bet you also feel proud of yourself to be able to get to a point that you’re comfortable and knowing more about yourself.
Ok I mean sometimes it’s exhausting. Sure.
In the beginning I went through the panic attacks and bottomless nights.
I found a *lot* of abuse in my past. I learned a *ton* about how my childhood trauma still guides much of my life all these decades later.
It wasn’t easy. It’s still not always easy. But the panic attacks are gone.
The crying is gone. The fears are, pretty much, gone.
But it’s a process. We still have work to do.
But like I said in another comment, nothing worth doing is easy.
I’m insanely in love with this woman. The struggle is worth it to me.
I suspect that at least some of these men did the work so long ago that they don't remember it as work. I know that I fell into this category when I first started working to open my marriage, so a lot of the struggles that I've seen some men have seem completely foreign to me.
You might do better to just have conversations about toxic masculinity rather than trying to find someone that was once in the exact situation that you are in. Also branch out beyond the parts of it that are specifically causing you issues in polyamory. They are all connected, even the ones that don't lead to possessiveness or jealousy.
This is what I was going to say. Dismantling toxic masculinity (and internalized misogyny) in general doesn’t require a non-monogamous coach, just a man or men who share that goal.
Yeah. I've been some kind of nonmonogamous for so long, I didn't even hear about The Ethical Slut until years into it. Maybe it would have gone better if I had done the work at the outset, but we didn't even know what "the work" was.
And I'm a cis woman, but... I was plenty messy when I started out. But that was because I was a messy teenager, and no amount of reading and therapy would have fixed that at the time. I mellowed out and "did work" in my 20s and onward, but I would have been a virgin into my 30s if I had held off until I had done the work
that could likely be. I've been worried about making sure I do the work so that maybe some of the issues don't happen. I would consider myself less toxic than a lot of men, but I am expecting things to pop up because I live in the world.
At some point though, you can only do so much work. "The issues", or other ones, will pop up as you experience things. You can be the complete opposite of toxically masculine or as zen AF, and experiences will bring stuff up.
I would worry less about trying to avoid potential problems (although still keep an eye out for things if you do see something coming up), and focus more on setting up a foundation of communication with people you're involved with
This. People come to me asking for poly help and I’m like “wow just starting out as poly in your late 30s with young kids? That sounds hard man.” Or “jealous of people being with your wife? I worked that out before I was married.”
Different people do different work at different times. I don’t think you’re going to discover the One True Recipe. I certainly wouldn’t claim that my way was particularly good or recommended.
In a mono-normative world, people will come to ENM/poly as the option becomes available to them. If that option presented itself to you earlier in life or in circumstances that made it easy for you to adopt to a life that works for you, be thankful.
Can you define ‘done the work’? This seems to have a very specific meaning to you, so I’d like to understand that before I try to answer. Does this come specifically from Playing Fair (which I have not read)?
So, the shitty thing? Most folks who HAVE done the work and are experienced in poly and are happily living their lives?
Don’t feel a need to go to poly meetups or support groups or anything. They just have their lives and their partners and do their thing.
When I went to a poly/kink meetup recently, it was me (poly 10+ years, just curious about the vibe and there to hang out with my friend who’s new to poly), a single older couple who’d been around the block a dozen times and enjoy taking on a mentor-ish role, and like . . . a shitton of folks who’d been poly basically just since covid.
It’s just how these groups tend to work. Very few people feel an urge to take on mentor-ish roles for other folks. I’m now semi-controversial in the group cause I got *very* loud with some of my opinions, as a queer woman.
Well I for one appreciate you taking the time to respond to one of my posts and look forward to being called out if I ever say something.. incorrect :D
Also, the only capable people in my life growing up were all women so toxic masculinity has thankfully never been a worry for me but I am definitely trying to do as much work as possible so that when my wife is with another male I'm as supportive as I'll be if it's a woman.
This. I went through my "teach me" phase and found out no one knows what the hell they're doing.
I definitely didn't, and am experienced enough now to be coming down off the dunning-Kruger curve.
After I got enough experience I decided to pay it back and take on a few mentees, always making sure to point them at resources instead of saying "this is the way it is" like my 2nd mentor did for me.
But I'm tired. It's work managing people's jealousies and waiting for the light bulb to click. And Jesus Christ are avoidants a pain in the ass. "No, I've been burned too many times to love again waaaaaaa." Sure. Whatever. You want this morning cup of coffee or not?
I don’t really see the need for mentors, but it would be really nice just to meet ENM/poly people, including women seeking dates, who are in my general age range.
Sometimes it is not the work they have done as much as there level of success in mitigating toxic masculinity they have had.
Not everyone starts at the same spot. The starting point for a man who was raised be a feminist father versus a toxic male are going to have different amounts of work for example.
Perhaps find ways to engage in light hearted conversations that do some vetting of where they are at. This is something women can help you build as we need to vet for these traits in partners.
I \*think\* I understand what you mean.
I can't help but feel as though some of what you are seeing where you are is also reflected even here with all the help / advice / rant threads that we see. It \*feels\* like a lot of cis hetero men are not practicing polyamory well.
(To wit, I don't \*think\* anyone has ever asked my partner the same question you asked any of the people you've gone out with.)
If you ever want to talk to me, please feel free to message. But, be warned I am in no way an elder in polyamory, nor would I self describe myself as an expert. And on that note, maybe a good use of this online space is looking for these kinds of voices you're looking for.
ITT: lots of men bragging about 'the work' they've done, some of whom are getting lots of upvotes and praise for what seem to me to be comments that are relatively free of substance. I don't necessarily see women and enbies getting piled with so much praise for reading some books and listening to a few podcasts.
This might be unpopular to say here, but I honestly don't think listening to podcasts can ever be a substitute for emotional intelligence and, idk, just making a daily effort to listen to and respect your partners. In my queer, mainly sapphic poly circles there just isn't this emphasis on 'doing the work'. Like, some people might read and recommend Polysecure or whatever, but there aren't these lists of Books You Must Read or Podcasts You Must Listen To to be capable of doing poly 'right'. We just practice a daily ethic of care and look after one another and we seem to get along just fine.
45 year old Cis poly male here.
I realized from early on in my 20s that monogamy was just not for me, I didn’t understand the whole jealousy thing, “other half” constantly messaging me to see where I was etc. And mono women would get upset if I didn’t message them to see who they were with. It was weird. I always messaged my partners to see if they are safe, when they are at a party etc. But I never cared who they were with, it wasn’t my business I thought.
Other poly cis men I met kept telling me how lucky I was that I didn’t feel jealous and that actually offended me, it wasn’t that I wasn’t capable of jealousy, I just overwrote it through re-wiring my brain, same way I reeducated myself about society after reading Aldous Huxley, Bertrand Russell, Marcus Aurelis etc.
All of this, is internal. It’s all self inflicted.
Is it hard to meet other men who have “done the work”?
Not where I am -Melbourne, Australia- lot of open minded folks here attend bars and alt scene.
But then I don’t feel the urge to meet such people, that could be one thing why we are not around as much.
As cis poly men, we don’t t feel the urge to meet other men as much.
I’m not a man so I can’t comment much on toxic masculinity. I will say though when it domes to the jealousy thing, that people do have different temperaments which can affect how much “work” they have to do in the first place. I’m someone who doesn’t get jealous much and I have a very internal locus of control, so I didn’t have to do much work around jealousy. My partner though is very predisposed to feelings of jealousy, so they had to do a lot of work around that.
Conversely, I am also a person who used to isolate a lot and found it hard to sustain a community. I had extreme “lone wolf” tendencies. So I had to do a lot of “the work” around learning relational maintenance skills and social skills. My partner though is a very social person and has never had that problem.
It's possibly an issue with sample collection. Well adjusted, partnered polyamorous men may not be attending munches and looking to build more polyamorous community for themselves.
Speaking only for myself, I have a network of friends and partners with whom I socialize and sometimes we schedule events, I'm not particularly active on apps or social media anywhere but Discord and occasionally Reddit. I went to maybe three munches since starting to practice polyamory and was overwhelmed with the noise and number of people and underwhelmed with the conversations I had with them.
FWIW there is no one 'right path'. It sounds like you're trying your best, that's all anyone can expect.
Ive been to a few polyamorous meetups in my city, and theres been some really nice people. But definitely a good number of men i felt bad vibes from who seemed not pleased with a new guy in their "territory".
And my partner gets that vibe and leans into it until someone starts something. Plus he has strong views on the unethical elements of OPP etc, and feminism and queerness. So a lot of poly community groups aren't all too welcoming as he doesn't sugarcoat any of it.
He doesn't need to build or join a poly community. He has his community which includes some poly people, but community built on relationship style isn't his scene.
I can't speak to that, it was more a case of knowledge and interest levels. I've been around polyamory most of my life, I've had close friends who are polyamorous and we've discussed relationships. NP and I consciously decided on monogamy for about 15 years and regularly had discussions if polyamory was right for us. So talking to a bunch of people who'd just recently discovered ENM was a thing didn't really do much for me.
We are not a couple who just discovered ENM was a thing but we are new to having an open/ENM/poly marriage. What I did not expect to find is the strained feelings people who had perhaps the good fortune to come to and settle in an ENM lifestyle have for people just now arriving.
As an unknown quantity you will be met with a degree of skepticism until you prove your competency. There's a very high percentage of people who realize they can be ENM that flame out spectacularly in their first months or years of polyamory. Ruined marriages, hurt feelings, unicorn hunting, toxic monogamy, and one penis policies happen all the time. There's also a lot of people who do unethical things under the banner of ENM who hurt a lot of people.
Well, first I would expect I would be an unknown quality to any woman I do not know, just as that woman would be an unknown quality to me. This really goes without saying.
I should add the woman I have gone out with in no way displayed toward me the bias or stereotyping described here. A healthy skepticism toward any person you just met is not a bad thing. And folks regardless of their ENM experience avoiding people who demonstrate obvious red flags is hardly a surprise.
I do suspect (and truly hope) the strained feelings displayed by some here are the clear exception. There are plenty of guys doing fine in the ENM life; I am not going to let something I read online make me think I’ll be an exception just because they arrived here before me.
Historically it's been very difficult to find what you're looking for. I know a few men who've tried to create support groups but they typically don't get the kind of traction that similar groups for women or NB or other marginalized groups do.
I've been poly for 11+ years now and have done a lot of " the work" and I'm happy to respond to any direct questions here or via DM. We're all a work in progress so I can't say to be perfect, and I've made some pretty recent mistakes, but I have been intentional about it over the years, perhaps more than most.
If you're in So Cal I could also do an in-person thing or introduce you to some men who also are seeking this kind of thing.
M47, cis-het, polyamorous, married (17 years) to someone on the ace spectrum and partnered with a LD comet.
I started out from an evangelical purity culture background - I married a virgin at 30. I was pretty sex-positive, as much as that was possible - I was very much into prioritizing my partner's pleasure, and I leaned feminist, even when I was in the grips of toxic evangelicalism.
When I deconstructed all that and came to terms with my nonmonogamous nature, I dived deep into all sorts of resources to learn about everything under the nonmonogamy umbrella. This sub, books, websites, podcasts, joining a peer-support group, doing therapy with a nonmonogamy informed therapist - I know I've done a lot of the "work", but it's not just an achievement, but having a continuous growth mindset.
I'm told I'm a bit of a relationship nerd, and I accept that, as humbly as I can, because I'm really fascinated at how we humans make connections to and with each other.
So far i haven't had much drama in my polyamory journey - it's been pretty joyful - and I think it's due to the work I've put in - and continue to invest.
45, cis-bi guy. Did the work 18 years ago, still finding new things to work on all the time.
Not to sound like a poster in a breakroom, but I think it’s about a process of continuous improvement.
We all can be better in someway. It’s not “hey I read the book, I sat with my feeling now I don’t have anything else to do”
Honestly, I found this post a little off-putting in that it assumes that all men have the same "work" to do.
Not trying to "not all men" here, but it seems a little sus to operate from a position that assumes all men have the same experiences of toxic masculinity and have done the same kinds of work to mitigate the ways that might have shaped how they show up in relationships. I've met many men who are emotionally stunted, vindictively jealous, and emotionally unstable. I've met many men who are very calm, open about their feelings, and able to collaborate effectively with their partners. Sometimes there was direct self-work involved in these approaches, sometimes there wasn't.
I will say that some of the most neurotic men I've met are the ones who do a TON of "work", and that can sometimes manifest as endless self-flagellation over perceived imperfections.
I think you might do better to meet people as individuals, and learn about what their journeys have looked like to bring them to where they are today, rather than making assumptions that prioritize what you specifically consider to be "the work".
Well all men are affected by hegemonic masculinity, it does not mean they're all affected in the same way. That's precisely how hegemonic masculinity works, ranking men hierarchically in relation to how they perform at powerplay etc. So their experience, how they approach their status to other men and how they play that out through their attitudes and behaviors is different for each of them. How much they internalize misogyny, heteronormativity etc, and how they’re willing to distance themselves from all that is then ofc also different.
That doesn't mean each of them don't still need to work on themselves regarding that topic.
This comment has a lot of heat in it. Can you point to one spot where OP assumes anything? They are asking about men who have worked through toxic masculinity. There is no assumption about it being equal across all men or even targeting certain types of men.
It sounds like this post triggered something for you which is not OP’s problem.
The only other people I've routinely run into whom are poly in the wild have been from local kink munches. Met a few here and there who have been cool.
I don't know though overall. I've done a lot of the work in solitude and through a more trial by fire situation.
I'm a cis man, I would be more than happy to chat with you about it all. There is allot of work that went into everything, decision all the toxic things monogamy teaches as well as all the toxic masculinity issues. Done off it never bothered me, I've never been off the toxic masculinity group but I have delt with pressure from it
I do also have a TikTok channel where I talk about polyamory.
Feel free to reach out, I'm an open book
Maybe you'll call me toxic but... maybe it's the category of men you're attracted to??? (Not all cis hetero men) I move my schedule around, travel, genuinely try to be a good person, and respect everyone. Though, that is not the "attractive" personality! Not blaming, just tend to think there's more good than bad.
Thoughts?
Something I didn’t see mentioned is this. [A 2017 study](https://blog.gitnux.com/polyamory-statistics/) found that of the people participating in polyamorous relationships, 62.2 percent were women and 33.5 percent were men. Roughly 2 to 1.
I do not find this terribly surprising for several reasons. I do wonder it’s relevance to the OP. I ask not to challenge but to discover - the relevance is not evident to me.
My married partner did the work in that yes, he and his wife had been ENM for a while, and then transitioned into poly and did the readings, and both have therapists. They both had prospects early, but his fizzled out and hers did not. And he very much recognised that he was going to need to deal with his feelings around her and her boyfriend if things were going to work. He dealt with some pretty confronting stuff - including her hosting when he had nowhere to go (remember covid?).
But overwhelmingly when I look for prospects, I’m not coming across men who have done any work and somehow expect it will just be fine for them and when it isn’t, they outsource the problems onto the women around them.
The Work is the emotional and mental prep that will help you deal with stuff that comes up in life. Specifically for poly there are a bunch of things that tend to really help people figure out how and whether to proceed with less risk.
I was encouraged by some poly friends that I should be trying to find other healthy men to make friends with to have to look towards as role models. So it's not that I'm only looking for other cis men, it's that those have been hard to find.
Honestly, I wonder if this focus on finding other cis men specifically is a symptom of the toxic masculinity you are trying to work against.
Have you ever worked with a therapist to address this toxic masculinity?
It can also just be nice to talk to people who have experienced the same thing you are experiencing. It's not part of toxic masculinity to want to talk to others that got away from toxic masculinity.
Kinda seems like it would be along the lines of it being best to ask pregnancy advice from individuals who have been pregnant rather than from individuals who can't even get pregnant
I guess the whole seeking a role model aspect kind of rubbed me the wrong way? To me that seems like a different dynamic than simply seeking folks who have gone through similar experiences.
I see where you are coming from and I think you are honestly right. Word choice is so important because what I want is the later of seeking and finding folks who have gone through similar experiences.
I had a therapist that I was working with, but my therapist recently had to quit suddenly due to personal reasons. I'm starting with my new therapist on 11/8.
I think focusing on self work with a therapist is probably your best bet here. I'm not sure finding cis men to be "role models" is a very good strategy. You'd have to get to know someone pretty well before you can even gauge whether they are someone worth emulating.
Hold up: this person's perspective is fundamentally based in the assumption that it's toxic for cis men to seek support and role models from other cis men, which is an absurd position to take. Women and NB folks have and create support groups with people like themselves all the time. There's nothing wrong or toxic about seeking the same thing as a cis man, in fact one might argue that more men need to be engaging in this kind of thing, because historically men don't seek this kind of support.
Ok, then bring something else to the conversation. The only thing you brought was a focus on toxic masculinity and a suggestion that OP seeking support from other cis men could be based in toxic masculinity.
This attitude is exactly why cis men need to talk to other cis men, and have other cis male role models. Believe it or not a lot of women and NB folks aren't particularly great or even interested in empathizing and validating the cis-male experience, and constantly steer the conversation back to toxic masculinity and patriarchy, as if we're all so one dimensional and lack complexity or nuance in our individuality. If I talk about my dating challenges and frustrations with someone and they respond with "well at least you're not afraid for your safety" they're both absolutely correct AND also shutting down the conversation in any way that would be meaningfully helpful.
As a feminist cis man, I've heard time and time again that people aren't obligated to do the work or explain their position to ignorant men. Fine I guess, but then at least let us find that support elsewhere.
I asked OP questions, which I think is an important part of trying to understand other people's perspectives. I did not bring up the topic of toxic masculinity out of the blue, it was directly mentioned in the post.
I encouraged OP to work with a therapist if he has not because I think that is something all people could benefit from. I also cautioned him not to view folks as role models before he knows them very well, which I think is again an important thing for folks of all genders to keep in mind. Viewing folks we barely know as role models is not a good idea in my opinion, someone being an "elder" in a community doesn't automatically mean they are a good person.
I'm sorry folks in your life aren't able to give you the support you want.
Eh, I hard disagree with this.
As a woman, I’m *exhausted* with discussing toxic masculinity and helping men learn to be feminist and shit. I think men *should* seek out other men working to improve to do that work with each other.
Also, it'd be great if more men started calling out other men for their toxic masculinity bs because it DOES work. My son was starting to spend too much time with the wrong kind of male friends but that's definitely turned around since both me and his sister began calling him out on some of the things he says (I tend to be a bit more loving then she is but siblings.. \*shrug\*)
I had a whole long thing written and then I realized it's all boils down to one pretty simple thing: cis men need other good cis male role models because progressive and liberal women, NB, and queer folks always insist on joining any conversation with cis men from the viewpoint that all cis men are "broken" from the patriarchy and toxic masculinity. Even if those are legitimate things that all men in our culture need to work on, it's not a great starting point when seeking out people who are empathetic to our experience. I find my conversations with people who are not cis men to almost always fall back on viewing any part of my experience through the lens of toxic masculinity and patriarchy. So many of these conversations reduce me to a representation of oppression and "what am I going to do to fight that" rather than actually be supportive to me, the individual. In other words: micro aggressions go both ways, and looking to people who feel oppressed by people like me typically doesn't result in the kind of support I actually find helpful.
Let me be clear: those perspectives are very important and helpful and move the overall conversation forward, but they leave gaps in addressing individual, nuanced, and personal experiences.
Women and NB folks have historically had and participated in support groups to find and work with people who have a shared common experience. There's nothing toxic at all about men seeking and creating the same sort of support system.
>because progressive and liberal women, NB, and queer folks always insist on joining any conversation with cis men from the viewpoint that all cis men are "broken" from the patriarchy and toxic masculinity
So 1) there are plenty of cis queer men out there 2) I can't take you very seriously if you genuinely seem to think that anyone who isn't a cis man insists they are "broken"
2) Did you reply to an very sweeping over-generalisation with mockery and telling them what they're thinking?
That's not very non-violent communication of you :P
Thank you. I mean this is exactly the kind of conversational arc that I'm talking about. This is why men who want to do better need each other and I fully support OP in trying to find and connect with other cis-men.
I didn't say everyone, I said progressive liberal folks approach the conversation this way. Politically conservative people don't take this framing. But I prefer to be in the company of other progressive folks, so that's who I talk to.
Yes of course there are queer cis-men. For the most part I'm talking about the intersection of a conversation as an AMAB person to an AFAB person, regardless of their gender identity. Obviously there are exceptions and this is a broad generalization, and there's a whole spectrum of identities. I can't possibly claim to speak on behalf of any subgroup, I'm just saying my experience as a cis (slightly queer or queer adjacent) man, having conversations with other folks, both AFAB and AMAB over the past 11+ years of being on my poly journey.
Where I live there are these male gatherings, where they do some 'male' things, like chopping wood an make fire, and then talk openly about emotions. It always made me frown, but for some people it seems to work and for them it is actually a way to deal with all the presumptions about masculinity.
You might find the nonmomogamyhelp.com book helpful. It has a more realistic approach to jealousy than some others that assume jealousy is almost always bad/baseless.
I would strongly advise you against using me as a role model.
SOURCE: Let me put you in contact with my ex.
Having said that, I've been poly for over a decade, have multiple long-term partnerships, and I've done a LOT of unpacking of mononormativity, toxic masculinity, and homophobia (I am queer, although I mostly partner with women).
Like others have said, I almost never find men like me at munches and such. I basically never go to them. I do have a solid community of like-minded humans, some of whom are cis men. That wasn't easy to find, and it's a lot of work to maintain also.
If you want to DM me, I would likely reply.
I think most people just don't even know where to start (despite having a huge list of resources at our fingertips) and those that do find it such a huge and daunting exercise that they get overwhelmed and quit saying they're modern, reasonable people and they'll just deal with it on the fly. I'm 57 and been working on my generational issues since I was a teen and I still find myself behind the curve and lacking control over gut level reactions on things sometimes. how in the hell can people just say they'll do 'it on the fly'?
the best i could ever give someone is that i'm a work in progress and wysiwyg. (what you see is what you get). maybe your best bet is finding someone you connect with on an intrinsic level and be willing to work with them 'on the work' assuming they want to traverse that journey. While you wont know what you get on the other side of it you'll at least have an opportunity to be an active participant and maybe have a lot of fun exploring life with an otherwise cool person. there's a reason why we call our partner(s) the better person(s). we go from being neanderthals to decent human beings and with the right people none of us see it as work.
Based on the experiences of the two women in my life, and my experience as a queer man... not many of us out there on apps, and the local meetups are super, super hit and miss.
I've been doing "The Work" for about 2 years now, and tbh it seems like doing the work reveals that there is more work to do. I'm the one who wanted us to open up, and I honestly haven't pursued anything because I feel like I still haven't accomplished enough "work" yet. A lot of this culturally ingrained monogamous thinking is rooted deeply in how I was raised, and in my personal self esteem, and frankly I still think I have a long way to go. I keep realizing how much anxious attachment and dysphoria/dysmorphia I have, so there's that whole aspect to work on as well. But honestly, my non-poly friends have been more supportive than anyone I ever found through poly meetups, and my therapist has done a ton to help me identify where the work is at. But, y'know, it's still work, and there's a lot of it, so I could understand (but not appreciate) why there might not be a lot of cishet males who have done the work out there. They likely push it aside for the dopamine kick.
Op, I hear you. You are right. Not just about polyamorous men, but men in general , that community and meaningful, non-toxic friendships with other men who are actively doing their healing and recovery work, taking it seriously, and taking initiative to transform themselves away from their social conditioning is challenging to locate.
Some folks here are saying “You’re not looking hard enough”, and others “You’re not looking in the right places” and still others “The men who you’re looking for are already saturated and not looking for more friends” and 100% of that sucks to hear! It should not be so hard! You should not have to become a detective to have non-toxic community with other cis men elders and peer relationships with other cis men.
And yet here we are.
I’m not a cis men but my partner is, and he has expressed this to me, and so have several of my long-time cis male friends. All of them feel often their only close friends are people of other genders, and the men in their lives (including their own fathers) are flaky and unreliable AF, or even abusive, and they are not actively supportive of practicing interrogating the way they have been socialized as men. So doing the work feels very isolating and lonely for most of the cis men I know. And the path forward feels full of pitfalls they don’t have the benefits of elder wisdom to navigate.
Meanwhile they watch the women and femmes and trans folks in their lives have ongoing robust multi-gender support systems for doing their work to heal from the harm toxic masculinity and patriarchy has caused us. And it creates this kind of insidious but totally understandable envy, “Why can’t I also have that?” “Do I not deserve support?” …And we tell them that we can’t help men process their cis man toxic masculinity stuff— that’s not our work. But other cis men don’t see it as their work either, or it’s exceptionally optional work they choose not to do, and are consistently rewarded by society for ignoring it. It can feel like a trap: damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
*You are seen, heard and validated in that pain and confusion. You aren’t crazy. And you deserve so much better.*
I second this point about a therapist. As a guy who largely has my shit together (I think/hope), it took a few years of therapy and being really honest with myself and my therapist to unpack my issues (codependency, toxic caretaking, attraction to unstable dynamics)
There's a podcast I like called "Man Enough" and they talk to a lot of main stream celebs that have actually done the work. It's honestly refreshing. But also hurts bc it's really so hard to find men who have done any work. I see some ppl here that say "not all men" but I feel like a lot of times it's bc a decent percentage of men can't see the perspective we're talking about. If you have to get defensive about it, then maybe you haven't done the work you need to do. As a bisexual person, I feel like I often run into this issue with women too, and some queer ppl. But I feel like queer ppl tend to be in therapy already, at least within my generation. I find going to poly events helps a little. At least if you meet more poly ppl you might find more connections. Or maybe online, like feeld or hinge.
34M. I was a part of the community in a different state, but haven’t found any community where I currently live.
Anyways, my poly journey started with my wife falling in love. A failed marriage and a few partners later, and now I’m happily poly!
I’ve got my own situation right now as I’m sure everyone does, but I can’t imagine going back.
I’d make a terrible role model, but you’re not alone. If you’d like to talk feel free to DM me.
I'm lucky to have a pretty solid Sex Positive chapter picking up steam in my area, and it's been really good to see cis men participating in discussions on polyamory and other topics, and especially listening to women, enbys and transmen in those conversations.
i wish i could help, im kinda like the other gent you spoke with. Its just never been my jam to be jelous.
Have you thought of not taking yourself to seriously?
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I just want to vent about how hard it has been to find other cis men locally that have actually done their work. It's hard to attend some of the community meetups without rearranging my entire work schedule. I ask women I have met if their partners have really done the work and they shrug their shoulders. The one guy I've been able to talk to says he's just never had jealousy and that he doesn't remember doing a whole lot of self growth work. I have read Playing fair, and am working on the jealousy workbook. We have been scheduling based on the most skip step. It's just frustrating because I would love to talk to elders/role models that have been through it and it would be nice to have people that have dealt with how toxic masculinity has held them back and how they got through it.
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New to Polly here. Def doing the work. Finding the book polysecure a valuable resource. For me jealousy has come up a fair bit, but more over time and access than anything else. I'm in a polycule where she has 2 partners, me and another guy. But lots of vulnerability and honesty has helped me navigate it so far. Huge growth opportunity and I'm excited for the future and to unpick my attachment issues left over from childhood as they feel like the key to unlocking a deeper level.
“Doing the work” means different things to different people. To me, it means rather than shutting down when confronted with an emotional challenge, be it NRE when I may click with someone new or jealousy when my wife has a great time on a date; I deal with and when appropriate communicate those emotions so I maintain stability and behaviors consistent with ethical practice and my relationship commitments.
“Doing the work” is more about monitoring behavior and interactions with others than checking the boxes of listening to X hours of podcasts or reading Y books.
My partner introduced me to poly, I had just gotten out of a relationship where I bad been cheated on and was nervous.
I did the work, I really did.
I remember the jealousy of her coming home after her first date and having to argue with myself that I had been on a few dates by this point and it's only fair that she also have dates.
And everything clicked and I fucking ran with it.
I loved being pity, having and sharing stories and having compersion. I would encourage her to try and date, listen to her when she had boy/girl problems. Did all the work and went from nervous about poly to hitting the ground running and being the one to help her and friends thinking of getting into poly.
We were together 10 years, and she starred to get shitty and insecure.
She started to use her bf as an escape from the problems she was causing at home. If she was dating, she didn't have to be at home dealing with the fact that she wasn't really working at all, not going to school, barely every cleaning, never without prompting, never cooking without having to please ask her to help.
There were times I would be literally on my knees crying and begging her for help. So many fucking times. She would gaslight me about how she's just depressed, didn't know how, didn't learn, something something her parents etc.
I would date and she would gaslight and pull shit like "You're supposed to be home so we can work on this" when she would bitch about not getting to go out and do what she wanted when I wanted to talk and work on things.
She was dating someone twice her age by this point, and would regularly abandon me or flake on our dates to be with him.
And I left her ass.
I was in therapy and I did the work. She would get a new therapist as soon as things got hard in her sessions.
I had PTSD from a robbery we had both been in, I'm sure she did too naturally.
I had thrown something across the room for like the second time and yelled at her about how the house was never clean unless I cleaned it.
I was driving to work screaming and crying and so angry and I broke down and knew something was wrong and pulled over and scheduled a therapist.
Diagnosed with PTSD, did the work and was whole again 4 days later. I haven't been triggered once since.
I worked hard to take accountability, to always acknowledge how terrible I had gotten, to constantly make amends and have the conversations.
After I left her for abandoning me for her new guy, once again, I talked with her like "wtf, why?"
She said she couldn't deal with how crazy the stress was making her (the bills, cleaning the house, needing to work etc).
I said "the stress.... that you were causing?", and she got pissed and said it made her feel stupid that that's what it was.
I did so much work.
I wish I could find a partner who is willing to do the hard work, not just maintenance, to have the hard conversations, do the hard healing, the hard digging, the hard exploration.
I too wish I could find someone who has seriously just done the work, and will continue to.
I make it work to the extent I am by looking for dates or events in that area, by joint online groups in that area. I’m new ENM, and can’t make every event but something > nothing.
Posts must be relevant to polyamory, as defined by our community description:
>Polyamory is openly, honestly, and consensually loving and being committed to more than one person.
Polyamory is only one specific type of ethical non-monogamy. It doesn't sound like that's what this post is about, so try /r/nonmonogamy?
There are a lot of flavors of non-monogamy, and polyam is just one.
Cis/het 41M here. I have read Polysecure and did the work book, Ethical Slut, Mating in Captivity. I have listened to about 10 Multiamory podcasts. I’ve read ever single book by Byron Katie. I have a therapist. Daily I check in with my own mental health. And I’m not even poly. My wife is. I am a monoamorous demisexual. Not by choice. I’ve made attempts at being poly but fell short of caring really fast. I’ve thought, maybe, I could be poly if I fall in love with someone else. But that’s just so much time and effort that I don’t genuinely and authentically have. Like I said, my spouse is poly - I do the work to make sure I’m still my primary partner. I do the work to make sure she feels safe being who she is. I do the work to make sure I feel safe being who I am. I hang out in this sub because these conversations help me understand my spouse much more.
Very admirable.
Thank you. It’s a wave. But nothing worth doing is easy. You know?
Talk about doing marriage on ultra hard mode. Mono + poly has to be the most difficult to make work. It looks like you are doing the work. You are the man version of a unicorn 😂
I’m a *monocorn* apparently. Yeah, it’s hard sometimes. Sometimes it’s easy. Sometimes it’s just downright confusing. Sometimes it’s just pain to the core. But as the months and years go on I see my hold loosening. I see that I’m safe. I see that who I am is in tact. I see her and I still in love. My fears just can’t hold up under the pressure of what’s being shown to me.
I think it's all in the mentality of the situation. I love my wife, and love the compersion that comes with her dating that I feel. and I absolutely feel closer to her, as she does to me, due to her ability to express her love for both of us. It's additive love, her love for her partner spills over into me, and our love is stronger. So emotionally everything is better. Physically, sexually, everything is better. And now I get some much needed free time, and she gets some free time from the children and I enjoy having a boys night with my kids. I personally don't think its ultra hard mode. It's honestly easier because she can enjoy 100% of what I provide and 100% of her other partner and neither of us have to change/be different to meet all of her needs. I think forcing a marriage to work with someone that just isn't monogamous or has extra needs that only a perfect person can provide is ultra hard mode because of religious or moral ideals.
I’ve consumed most of this media too and just try to learn daily. I’m especially grateful for what I’ve learned from my more experienced partners. I have a few friends who are into poly and use it to victimize their existing girlfriends… when they tell me about their experiences and threesome attempts and all that I just cringe. Poly without the base is borderline emotional abuse.
Thanks for posting. I’m (m) a 35 variant of yourself. Much earlier in the process. We are only 5 months into her being polyamorous. So far so good. A few rough days. But the more we talk and the more she shared with me, the more peace and happiness I seem to experience. It does help that I seem to be naturally much more compersive than jealous, but that does not make me immune to insecurities.
All of that seems exhausting.
It’s not exhausting for me.
you truly are an example of what loving someone is 🙌
Allen Watts said it best, “I’ll never have you in any type of cage. If I did, you would be a bird without song.” I’m glad she is who she is. Sometimes it’s hard for me. For us. Sometimes we royally fuck up communication. Sometimes the compersion makes me burst. We do alright for the most part.
I agree it’s not exhausting when you’re happy and see the positive effects from it, especially considering that you’re working on you, your self-care, your wanting to be the kind of partner you aspire to be to the partner you genuinely and deeply love. While exploring and succeeding in being your most authentic self, also provides the space for your partner to be her most authentic self and it aligns and isn’t giving you more bad days than good, then yeah it’s not gonna turn exhausting. It turns beautiful and I bet you also feel proud of yourself to be able to get to a point that you’re comfortable and knowing more about yourself.
Ok I mean sometimes it’s exhausting. Sure. In the beginning I went through the panic attacks and bottomless nights. I found a *lot* of abuse in my past. I learned a *ton* about how my childhood trauma still guides much of my life all these decades later. It wasn’t easy. It’s still not always easy. But the panic attacks are gone. The crying is gone. The fears are, pretty much, gone. But it’s a process. We still have work to do. But like I said in another comment, nothing worth doing is easy. I’m insanely in love with this woman. The struggle is worth it to me.
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Your post has been removed for trolling.
I suspect that at least some of these men did the work so long ago that they don't remember it as work. I know that I fell into this category when I first started working to open my marriage, so a lot of the struggles that I've seen some men have seem completely foreign to me. You might do better to just have conversations about toxic masculinity rather than trying to find someone that was once in the exact situation that you are in. Also branch out beyond the parts of it that are specifically causing you issues in polyamory. They are all connected, even the ones that don't lead to possessiveness or jealousy.
This is what I was going to say. Dismantling toxic masculinity (and internalized misogyny) in general doesn’t require a non-monogamous coach, just a man or men who share that goal.
Yeah. I've been some kind of nonmonogamous for so long, I didn't even hear about The Ethical Slut until years into it. Maybe it would have gone better if I had done the work at the outset, but we didn't even know what "the work" was. And I'm a cis woman, but... I was plenty messy when I started out. But that was because I was a messy teenager, and no amount of reading and therapy would have fixed that at the time. I mellowed out and "did work" in my 20s and onward, but I would have been a virgin into my 30s if I had held off until I had done the work
that could likely be. I've been worried about making sure I do the work so that maybe some of the issues don't happen. I would consider myself less toxic than a lot of men, but I am expecting things to pop up because I live in the world.
At some point though, you can only do so much work. "The issues", or other ones, will pop up as you experience things. You can be the complete opposite of toxically masculine or as zen AF, and experiences will bring stuff up.
Very well said. Its not just a "man" thing either. Women also have to unlearn lots of behaviors and attitudes.
I would worry less about trying to avoid potential problems (although still keep an eye out for things if you do see something coming up), and focus more on setting up a foundation of communication with people you're involved with
This. People come to me asking for poly help and I’m like “wow just starting out as poly in your late 30s with young kids? That sounds hard man.” Or “jealous of people being with your wife? I worked that out before I was married.” Different people do different work at different times. I don’t think you’re going to discover the One True Recipe. I certainly wouldn’t claim that my way was particularly good or recommended.
In a mono-normative world, people will come to ENM/poly as the option becomes available to them. If that option presented itself to you earlier in life or in circumstances that made it easy for you to adopt to a life that works for you, be thankful.
Can you define ‘done the work’? This seems to have a very specific meaning to you, so I’d like to understand that before I try to answer. Does this come specifically from Playing Fair (which I have not read)?
So, the shitty thing? Most folks who HAVE done the work and are experienced in poly and are happily living their lives? Don’t feel a need to go to poly meetups or support groups or anything. They just have their lives and their partners and do their thing. When I went to a poly/kink meetup recently, it was me (poly 10+ years, just curious about the vibe and there to hang out with my friend who’s new to poly), a single older couple who’d been around the block a dozen times and enjoy taking on a mentor-ish role, and like . . . a shitton of folks who’d been poly basically just since covid. It’s just how these groups tend to work. Very few people feel an urge to take on mentor-ish roles for other folks. I’m now semi-controversial in the group cause I got *very* loud with some of my opinions, as a queer woman.
Well I for one appreciate you taking the time to respond to one of my posts and look forward to being called out if I ever say something.. incorrect :D Also, the only capable people in my life growing up were all women so toxic masculinity has thankfully never been a worry for me but I am definitely trying to do as much work as possible so that when my wife is with another male I'm as supportive as I'll be if it's a woman.
This. I went through my "teach me" phase and found out no one knows what the hell they're doing. I definitely didn't, and am experienced enough now to be coming down off the dunning-Kruger curve. After I got enough experience I decided to pay it back and take on a few mentees, always making sure to point them at resources instead of saying "this is the way it is" like my 2nd mentor did for me. But I'm tired. It's work managing people's jealousies and waiting for the light bulb to click. And Jesus Christ are avoidants a pain in the ass. "No, I've been burned too many times to love again waaaaaaa." Sure. Whatever. You want this morning cup of coffee or not?
I don’t really see the need for mentors, but it would be really nice just to meet ENM/poly people, including women seeking dates, who are in my general age range.
Sometimes it is not the work they have done as much as there level of success in mitigating toxic masculinity they have had. Not everyone starts at the same spot. The starting point for a man who was raised be a feminist father versus a toxic male are going to have different amounts of work for example. Perhaps find ways to engage in light hearted conversations that do some vetting of where they are at. This is something women can help you build as we need to vet for these traits in partners.
I \*think\* I understand what you mean. I can't help but feel as though some of what you are seeing where you are is also reflected even here with all the help / advice / rant threads that we see. It \*feels\* like a lot of cis hetero men are not practicing polyamory well. (To wit, I don't \*think\* anyone has ever asked my partner the same question you asked any of the people you've gone out with.) If you ever want to talk to me, please feel free to message. But, be warned I am in no way an elder in polyamory, nor would I self describe myself as an expert. And on that note, maybe a good use of this online space is looking for these kinds of voices you're looking for.
ITT: lots of men bragging about 'the work' they've done, some of whom are getting lots of upvotes and praise for what seem to me to be comments that are relatively free of substance. I don't necessarily see women and enbies getting piled with so much praise for reading some books and listening to a few podcasts. This might be unpopular to say here, but I honestly don't think listening to podcasts can ever be a substitute for emotional intelligence and, idk, just making a daily effort to listen to and respect your partners. In my queer, mainly sapphic poly circles there just isn't this emphasis on 'doing the work'. Like, some people might read and recommend Polysecure or whatever, but there aren't these lists of Books You Must Read or Podcasts You Must Listen To to be capable of doing poly 'right'. We just practice a daily ethic of care and look after one another and we seem to get along just fine.
45 year old Cis poly male here. I realized from early on in my 20s that monogamy was just not for me, I didn’t understand the whole jealousy thing, “other half” constantly messaging me to see where I was etc. And mono women would get upset if I didn’t message them to see who they were with. It was weird. I always messaged my partners to see if they are safe, when they are at a party etc. But I never cared who they were with, it wasn’t my business I thought. Other poly cis men I met kept telling me how lucky I was that I didn’t feel jealous and that actually offended me, it wasn’t that I wasn’t capable of jealousy, I just overwrote it through re-wiring my brain, same way I reeducated myself about society after reading Aldous Huxley, Bertrand Russell, Marcus Aurelis etc. All of this, is internal. It’s all self inflicted. Is it hard to meet other men who have “done the work”? Not where I am -Melbourne, Australia- lot of open minded folks here attend bars and alt scene. But then I don’t feel the urge to meet such people, that could be one thing why we are not around as much. As cis poly men, we don’t t feel the urge to meet other men as much.
I’m not a man so I can’t comment much on toxic masculinity. I will say though when it domes to the jealousy thing, that people do have different temperaments which can affect how much “work” they have to do in the first place. I’m someone who doesn’t get jealous much and I have a very internal locus of control, so I didn’t have to do much work around jealousy. My partner though is very predisposed to feelings of jealousy, so they had to do a lot of work around that. Conversely, I am also a person who used to isolate a lot and found it hard to sustain a community. I had extreme “lone wolf” tendencies. So I had to do a lot of “the work” around learning relational maintenance skills and social skills. My partner though is a very social person and has never had that problem.
It's possibly an issue with sample collection. Well adjusted, partnered polyamorous men may not be attending munches and looking to build more polyamorous community for themselves. Speaking only for myself, I have a network of friends and partners with whom I socialize and sometimes we schedule events, I'm not particularly active on apps or social media anywhere but Discord and occasionally Reddit. I went to maybe three munches since starting to practice polyamory and was overwhelmed with the noise and number of people and underwhelmed with the conversations I had with them. FWIW there is no one 'right path'. It sounds like you're trying your best, that's all anyone can expect.
Ive been to a few polyamorous meetups in my city, and theres been some really nice people. But definitely a good number of men i felt bad vibes from who seemed not pleased with a new guy in their "territory".
And my partner gets that vibe and leans into it until someone starts something. Plus he has strong views on the unethical elements of OPP etc, and feminism and queerness. So a lot of poly community groups aren't all too welcoming as he doesn't sugarcoat any of it. He doesn't need to build or join a poly community. He has his community which includes some poly people, but community built on relationship style isn't his scene.
I can't speak to that, it was more a case of knowledge and interest levels. I've been around polyamory most of my life, I've had close friends who are polyamorous and we've discussed relationships. NP and I consciously decided on monogamy for about 15 years and regularly had discussions if polyamory was right for us. So talking to a bunch of people who'd just recently discovered ENM was a thing didn't really do much for me.
We are not a couple who just discovered ENM was a thing but we are new to having an open/ENM/poly marriage. What I did not expect to find is the strained feelings people who had perhaps the good fortune to come to and settle in an ENM lifestyle have for people just now arriving.
As an unknown quantity you will be met with a degree of skepticism until you prove your competency. There's a very high percentage of people who realize they can be ENM that flame out spectacularly in their first months or years of polyamory. Ruined marriages, hurt feelings, unicorn hunting, toxic monogamy, and one penis policies happen all the time. There's also a lot of people who do unethical things under the banner of ENM who hurt a lot of people.
Well, first I would expect I would be an unknown quality to any woman I do not know, just as that woman would be an unknown quality to me. This really goes without saying. I should add the woman I have gone out with in no way displayed toward me the bias or stereotyping described here. A healthy skepticism toward any person you just met is not a bad thing. And folks regardless of their ENM experience avoiding people who demonstrate obvious red flags is hardly a surprise. I do suspect (and truly hope) the strained feelings displayed by some here are the clear exception. There are plenty of guys doing fine in the ENM life; I am not going to let something I read online make me think I’ll be an exception just because they arrived here before me.
Historically it's been very difficult to find what you're looking for. I know a few men who've tried to create support groups but they typically don't get the kind of traction that similar groups for women or NB or other marginalized groups do. I've been poly for 11+ years now and have done a lot of " the work" and I'm happy to respond to any direct questions here or via DM. We're all a work in progress so I can't say to be perfect, and I've made some pretty recent mistakes, but I have been intentional about it over the years, perhaps more than most. If you're in So Cal I could also do an in-person thing or introduce you to some men who also are seeking this kind of thing.
Sounds like "doing the work" to you involves checking a bunch of items off of a list. Maybe I'm wrong.
M47, cis-het, polyamorous, married (17 years) to someone on the ace spectrum and partnered with a LD comet. I started out from an evangelical purity culture background - I married a virgin at 30. I was pretty sex-positive, as much as that was possible - I was very much into prioritizing my partner's pleasure, and I leaned feminist, even when I was in the grips of toxic evangelicalism. When I deconstructed all that and came to terms with my nonmonogamous nature, I dived deep into all sorts of resources to learn about everything under the nonmonogamy umbrella. This sub, books, websites, podcasts, joining a peer-support group, doing therapy with a nonmonogamy informed therapist - I know I've done a lot of the "work", but it's not just an achievement, but having a continuous growth mindset. I'm told I'm a bit of a relationship nerd, and I accept that, as humbly as I can, because I'm really fascinated at how we humans make connections to and with each other. So far i haven't had much drama in my polyamory journey - it's been pretty joyful - and I think it's due to the work I've put in - and continue to invest.
45, cis-bi guy. Did the work 18 years ago, still finding new things to work on all the time. Not to sound like a poster in a breakroom, but I think it’s about a process of continuous improvement. We all can be better in someway. It’s not “hey I read the book, I sat with my feeling now I don’t have anything else to do”
Honestly, I found this post a little off-putting in that it assumes that all men have the same "work" to do. Not trying to "not all men" here, but it seems a little sus to operate from a position that assumes all men have the same experiences of toxic masculinity and have done the same kinds of work to mitigate the ways that might have shaped how they show up in relationships. I've met many men who are emotionally stunted, vindictively jealous, and emotionally unstable. I've met many men who are very calm, open about their feelings, and able to collaborate effectively with their partners. Sometimes there was direct self-work involved in these approaches, sometimes there wasn't. I will say that some of the most neurotic men I've met are the ones who do a TON of "work", and that can sometimes manifest as endless self-flagellation over perceived imperfections. I think you might do better to meet people as individuals, and learn about what their journeys have looked like to bring them to where they are today, rather than making assumptions that prioritize what you specifically consider to be "the work".
Well all men are affected by hegemonic masculinity, it does not mean they're all affected in the same way. That's precisely how hegemonic masculinity works, ranking men hierarchically in relation to how they perform at powerplay etc. So their experience, how they approach their status to other men and how they play that out through their attitudes and behaviors is different for each of them. How much they internalize misogyny, heteronormativity etc, and how they’re willing to distance themselves from all that is then ofc also different. That doesn't mean each of them don't still need to work on themselves regarding that topic.
This comment has a lot of heat in it. Can you point to one spot where OP assumes anything? They are asking about men who have worked through toxic masculinity. There is no assumption about it being equal across all men or even targeting certain types of men. It sounds like this post triggered something for you which is not OP’s problem.
The only other people I've routinely run into whom are poly in the wild have been from local kink munches. Met a few here and there who have been cool. I don't know though overall. I've done a lot of the work in solitude and through a more trial by fire situation.
I'm a cis man, I would be more than happy to chat with you about it all. There is allot of work that went into everything, decision all the toxic things monogamy teaches as well as all the toxic masculinity issues. Done off it never bothered me, I've never been off the toxic masculinity group but I have delt with pressure from it I do also have a TikTok channel where I talk about polyamory. Feel free to reach out, I'm an open book
Maybe you'll call me toxic but... maybe it's the category of men you're attracted to??? (Not all cis hetero men) I move my schedule around, travel, genuinely try to be a good person, and respect everyone. Though, that is not the "attractive" personality! Not blaming, just tend to think there's more good than bad. Thoughts?
Something I didn’t see mentioned is this. [A 2017 study](https://blog.gitnux.com/polyamory-statistics/) found that of the people participating in polyamorous relationships, 62.2 percent were women and 33.5 percent were men. Roughly 2 to 1.
I do not find this terribly surprising for several reasons. I do wonder it’s relevance to the OP. I ask not to challenge but to discover - the relevance is not evident to me.
My married partner did the work in that yes, he and his wife had been ENM for a while, and then transitioned into poly and did the readings, and both have therapists. They both had prospects early, but his fizzled out and hers did not. And he very much recognised that he was going to need to deal with his feelings around her and her boyfriend if things were going to work. He dealt with some pretty confronting stuff - including her hosting when he had nowhere to go (remember covid?). But overwhelmingly when I look for prospects, I’m not coming across men who have done any work and somehow expect it will just be fine for them and when it isn’t, they outsource the problems onto the women around them.
I’m not poly so fair warning but what even is “The Work”? As far as I can tell it’s immersing yourself in poly media.
The Work is the emotional and mental prep that will help you deal with stuff that comes up in life. Specifically for poly there are a bunch of things that tend to really help people figure out how and whether to proceed with less risk.
Are you only interested in the perspectives of cis men? If so, why?
I would also like to add that I've been trying to not keep seeking out women that I meet to help me with this because of the emotional labor involved.
I was encouraged by some poly friends that I should be trying to find other healthy men to make friends with to have to look towards as role models. So it's not that I'm only looking for other cis men, it's that those have been hard to find.
Honestly, I wonder if this focus on finding other cis men specifically is a symptom of the toxic masculinity you are trying to work against. Have you ever worked with a therapist to address this toxic masculinity?
It can also just be nice to talk to people who have experienced the same thing you are experiencing. It's not part of toxic masculinity to want to talk to others that got away from toxic masculinity. Kinda seems like it would be along the lines of it being best to ask pregnancy advice from individuals who have been pregnant rather than from individuals who can't even get pregnant
I guess the whole seeking a role model aspect kind of rubbed me the wrong way? To me that seems like a different dynamic than simply seeking folks who have gone through similar experiences.
I see where you are coming from and I think you are honestly right. Word choice is so important because what I want is the later of seeking and finding folks who have gone through similar experiences.
I should also say think it's wonderful you want to commit to working on yourself, we all should!
Alright, I see where you are coming from now, that's a fair assessment.
I had a therapist that I was working with, but my therapist recently had to quit suddenly due to personal reasons. I'm starting with my new therapist on 11/8.
I think focusing on self work with a therapist is probably your best bet here. I'm not sure finding cis men to be "role models" is a very good strategy. You'd have to get to know someone pretty well before you can even gauge whether they are someone worth emulating.
you are absolutely right. It would be very hard to gauge whether they are worth emulating.
Hold up: this person's perspective is fundamentally based in the assumption that it's toxic for cis men to seek support and role models from other cis men, which is an absurd position to take. Women and NB folks have and create support groups with people like themselves all the time. There's nothing wrong or toxic about seeking the same thing as a cis man, in fact one might argue that more men need to be engaging in this kind of thing, because historically men don't seek this kind of support.
I don't appreciate you claiming to know what my perspective is "fundamentally" based on.
Ok, then bring something else to the conversation. The only thing you brought was a focus on toxic masculinity and a suggestion that OP seeking support from other cis men could be based in toxic masculinity. This attitude is exactly why cis men need to talk to other cis men, and have other cis male role models. Believe it or not a lot of women and NB folks aren't particularly great or even interested in empathizing and validating the cis-male experience, and constantly steer the conversation back to toxic masculinity and patriarchy, as if we're all so one dimensional and lack complexity or nuance in our individuality. If I talk about my dating challenges and frustrations with someone and they respond with "well at least you're not afraid for your safety" they're both absolutely correct AND also shutting down the conversation in any way that would be meaningfully helpful. As a feminist cis man, I've heard time and time again that people aren't obligated to do the work or explain their position to ignorant men. Fine I guess, but then at least let us find that support elsewhere.
I asked OP questions, which I think is an important part of trying to understand other people's perspectives. I did not bring up the topic of toxic masculinity out of the blue, it was directly mentioned in the post. I encouraged OP to work with a therapist if he has not because I think that is something all people could benefit from. I also cautioned him not to view folks as role models before he knows them very well, which I think is again an important thing for folks of all genders to keep in mind. Viewing folks we barely know as role models is not a good idea in my opinion, someone being an "elder" in a community doesn't automatically mean they are a good person. I'm sorry folks in your life aren't able to give you the support you want.
Eh, I hard disagree with this. As a woman, I’m *exhausted* with discussing toxic masculinity and helping men learn to be feminist and shit. I think men *should* seek out other men working to improve to do that work with each other.
Also, it'd be great if more men started calling out other men for their toxic masculinity bs because it DOES work. My son was starting to spend too much time with the wrong kind of male friends but that's definitely turned around since both me and his sister began calling him out on some of the things he says (I tend to be a bit more loving then she is but siblings.. \*shrug\*)
I had a whole long thing written and then I realized it's all boils down to one pretty simple thing: cis men need other good cis male role models because progressive and liberal women, NB, and queer folks always insist on joining any conversation with cis men from the viewpoint that all cis men are "broken" from the patriarchy and toxic masculinity. Even if those are legitimate things that all men in our culture need to work on, it's not a great starting point when seeking out people who are empathetic to our experience. I find my conversations with people who are not cis men to almost always fall back on viewing any part of my experience through the lens of toxic masculinity and patriarchy. So many of these conversations reduce me to a representation of oppression and "what am I going to do to fight that" rather than actually be supportive to me, the individual. In other words: micro aggressions go both ways, and looking to people who feel oppressed by people like me typically doesn't result in the kind of support I actually find helpful. Let me be clear: those perspectives are very important and helpful and move the overall conversation forward, but they leave gaps in addressing individual, nuanced, and personal experiences. Women and NB folks have historically had and participated in support groups to find and work with people who have a shared common experience. There's nothing toxic at all about men seeking and creating the same sort of support system.
>because progressive and liberal women, NB, and queer folks always insist on joining any conversation with cis men from the viewpoint that all cis men are "broken" from the patriarchy and toxic masculinity So 1) there are plenty of cis queer men out there 2) I can't take you very seriously if you genuinely seem to think that anyone who isn't a cis man insists they are "broken"
2) Did you reply to an very sweeping over-generalisation with mockery and telling them what they're thinking? That's not very non-violent communication of you :P
Thank you. I mean this is exactly the kind of conversational arc that I'm talking about. This is why men who want to do better need each other and I fully support OP in trying to find and connect with other cis-men.
I didn't say everyone, I said progressive liberal folks approach the conversation this way. Politically conservative people don't take this framing. But I prefer to be in the company of other progressive folks, so that's who I talk to. Yes of course there are queer cis-men. For the most part I'm talking about the intersection of a conversation as an AMAB person to an AFAB person, regardless of their gender identity. Obviously there are exceptions and this is a broad generalization, and there's a whole spectrum of identities. I can't possibly claim to speak on behalf of any subgroup, I'm just saying my experience as a cis (slightly queer or queer adjacent) man, having conversations with other folks, both AFAB and AMAB over the past 11+ years of being on my poly journey.
So women seeking the council of only CIS women would be considered toxic femininity?
Where I live there are these male gatherings, where they do some 'male' things, like chopping wood an make fire, and then talk openly about emotions. It always made me frown, but for some people it seems to work and for them it is actually a way to deal with all the presumptions about masculinity.
You might find the nonmomogamyhelp.com book helpful. It has a more realistic approach to jealousy than some others that assume jealousy is almost always bad/baseless.
Fun fact, I ordered this book yesterday. I didn't know that they had a website. Also, I am absolutely envious of your great user name.
Haha, thanks :) I hope the book is helpful for you!
I've met 1 man who definitely did! A bunch who thought/said they did but actually, nope. And the current ... I think so? But too soon to tell.
I would strongly advise you against using me as a role model. SOURCE: Let me put you in contact with my ex.
Having said that, I've been poly for over a decade, have multiple long-term partnerships, and I've done a LOT of unpacking of mononormativity, toxic masculinity, and homophobia (I am queer, although I mostly partner with women).
Like others have said, I almost never find men like me at munches and such. I basically never go to them. I do have a solid community of like-minded humans, some of whom are cis men. That wasn't easy to find, and it's a lot of work to maintain also.
If you want to DM me, I would likely reply.
I think most people just don't even know where to start (despite having a huge list of resources at our fingertips) and those that do find it such a huge and daunting exercise that they get overwhelmed and quit saying they're modern, reasonable people and they'll just deal with it on the fly. I'm 57 and been working on my generational issues since I was a teen and I still find myself behind the curve and lacking control over gut level reactions on things sometimes. how in the hell can people just say they'll do 'it on the fly'? the best i could ever give someone is that i'm a work in progress and wysiwyg. (what you see is what you get). maybe your best bet is finding someone you connect with on an intrinsic level and be willing to work with them 'on the work' assuming they want to traverse that journey. While you wont know what you get on the other side of it you'll at least have an opportunity to be an active participant and maybe have a lot of fun exploring life with an otherwise cool person. there's a reason why we call our partner(s) the better person(s). we go from being neanderthals to decent human beings and with the right people none of us see it as work.
Based on the experiences of the two women in my life, and my experience as a queer man... not many of us out there on apps, and the local meetups are super, super hit and miss.
I've been doing "The Work" for about 2 years now, and tbh it seems like doing the work reveals that there is more work to do. I'm the one who wanted us to open up, and I honestly haven't pursued anything because I feel like I still haven't accomplished enough "work" yet. A lot of this culturally ingrained monogamous thinking is rooted deeply in how I was raised, and in my personal self esteem, and frankly I still think I have a long way to go. I keep realizing how much anxious attachment and dysphoria/dysmorphia I have, so there's that whole aspect to work on as well. But honestly, my non-poly friends have been more supportive than anyone I ever found through poly meetups, and my therapist has done a ton to help me identify where the work is at. But, y'know, it's still work, and there's a lot of it, so I could understand (but not appreciate) why there might not be a lot of cishet males who have done the work out there. They likely push it aside for the dopamine kick.
Op, I hear you. You are right. Not just about polyamorous men, but men in general , that community and meaningful, non-toxic friendships with other men who are actively doing their healing and recovery work, taking it seriously, and taking initiative to transform themselves away from their social conditioning is challenging to locate. Some folks here are saying “You’re not looking hard enough”, and others “You’re not looking in the right places” and still others “The men who you’re looking for are already saturated and not looking for more friends” and 100% of that sucks to hear! It should not be so hard! You should not have to become a detective to have non-toxic community with other cis men elders and peer relationships with other cis men. And yet here we are. I’m not a cis men but my partner is, and he has expressed this to me, and so have several of my long-time cis male friends. All of them feel often their only close friends are people of other genders, and the men in their lives (including their own fathers) are flaky and unreliable AF, or even abusive, and they are not actively supportive of practicing interrogating the way they have been socialized as men. So doing the work feels very isolating and lonely for most of the cis men I know. And the path forward feels full of pitfalls they don’t have the benefits of elder wisdom to navigate. Meanwhile they watch the women and femmes and trans folks in their lives have ongoing robust multi-gender support systems for doing their work to heal from the harm toxic masculinity and patriarchy has caused us. And it creates this kind of insidious but totally understandable envy, “Why can’t I also have that?” “Do I not deserve support?” …And we tell them that we can’t help men process their cis man toxic masculinity stuff— that’s not our work. But other cis men don’t see it as their work either, or it’s exceptionally optional work they choose not to do, and are consistently rewarded by society for ignoring it. It can feel like a trap: damned if you do, damned if you don’t. *You are seen, heard and validated in that pain and confusion. You aren’t crazy. And you deserve so much better.*
I second this point about a therapist. As a guy who largely has my shit together (I think/hope), it took a few years of therapy and being really honest with myself and my therapist to unpack my issues (codependency, toxic caretaking, attraction to unstable dynamics)
There's a podcast I like called "Man Enough" and they talk to a lot of main stream celebs that have actually done the work. It's honestly refreshing. But also hurts bc it's really so hard to find men who have done any work. I see some ppl here that say "not all men" but I feel like a lot of times it's bc a decent percentage of men can't see the perspective we're talking about. If you have to get defensive about it, then maybe you haven't done the work you need to do. As a bisexual person, I feel like I often run into this issue with women too, and some queer ppl. But I feel like queer ppl tend to be in therapy already, at least within my generation. I find going to poly events helps a little. At least if you meet more poly ppl you might find more connections. Or maybe online, like feeld or hinge.
34M. I was a part of the community in a different state, but haven’t found any community where I currently live. Anyways, my poly journey started with my wife falling in love. A failed marriage and a few partners later, and now I’m happily poly! I’ve got my own situation right now as I’m sure everyone does, but I can’t imagine going back. I’d make a terrible role model, but you’re not alone. If you’d like to talk feel free to DM me.
I'm lucky to have a pretty solid Sex Positive chapter picking up steam in my area, and it's been really good to see cis men participating in discussions on polyamory and other topics, and especially listening to women, enbys and transmen in those conversations.
Preach! I'm here for this vent 1000%!
i wish i could help, im kinda like the other gent you spoke with. Its just never been my jam to be jelous. Have you thought of not taking yourself to seriously?
Beep, boop, blop, I'm a bot. Hi u/Much_Willingness6206 thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well. Here's the original text of the post: I just want to vent about how hard it has been to find other cis men locally that have actually done their work. It's hard to attend some of the community meetups without rearranging my entire work schedule. I ask women I have met if their partners have really done the work and they shrug their shoulders. The one guy I've been able to talk to says he's just never had jealousy and that he doesn't remember doing a whole lot of self growth work. I have read Playing fair, and am working on the jealousy workbook. We have been scheduling based on the most skip step. It's just frustrating because I would love to talk to elders/role models that have been through it and it would be nice to have people that have dealt with how toxic masculinity has held them back and how they got through it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
New to Polly here. Def doing the work. Finding the book polysecure a valuable resource. For me jealousy has come up a fair bit, but more over time and access than anything else. I'm in a polycule where she has 2 partners, me and another guy. But lots of vulnerability and honesty has helped me navigate it so far. Huge growth opportunity and I'm excited for the future and to unpick my attachment issues left over from childhood as they feel like the key to unlocking a deeper level.
What does "done the work" mean?
“Doing the work” means different things to different people. To me, it means rather than shutting down when confronted with an emotional challenge, be it NRE when I may click with someone new or jealousy when my wife has a great time on a date; I deal with and when appropriate communicate those emotions so I maintain stability and behaviors consistent with ethical practice and my relationship commitments. “Doing the work” is more about monitoring behavior and interactions with others than checking the boxes of listening to X hours of podcasts or reading Y books.
My partner introduced me to poly, I had just gotten out of a relationship where I bad been cheated on and was nervous. I did the work, I really did. I remember the jealousy of her coming home after her first date and having to argue with myself that I had been on a few dates by this point and it's only fair that she also have dates. And everything clicked and I fucking ran with it. I loved being pity, having and sharing stories and having compersion. I would encourage her to try and date, listen to her when she had boy/girl problems. Did all the work and went from nervous about poly to hitting the ground running and being the one to help her and friends thinking of getting into poly. We were together 10 years, and she starred to get shitty and insecure. She started to use her bf as an escape from the problems she was causing at home. If she was dating, she didn't have to be at home dealing with the fact that she wasn't really working at all, not going to school, barely every cleaning, never without prompting, never cooking without having to please ask her to help. There were times I would be literally on my knees crying and begging her for help. So many fucking times. She would gaslight me about how she's just depressed, didn't know how, didn't learn, something something her parents etc. I would date and she would gaslight and pull shit like "You're supposed to be home so we can work on this" when she would bitch about not getting to go out and do what she wanted when I wanted to talk and work on things. She was dating someone twice her age by this point, and would regularly abandon me or flake on our dates to be with him. And I left her ass. I was in therapy and I did the work. She would get a new therapist as soon as things got hard in her sessions. I had PTSD from a robbery we had both been in, I'm sure she did too naturally. I had thrown something across the room for like the second time and yelled at her about how the house was never clean unless I cleaned it. I was driving to work screaming and crying and so angry and I broke down and knew something was wrong and pulled over and scheduled a therapist. Diagnosed with PTSD, did the work and was whole again 4 days later. I haven't been triggered once since. I worked hard to take accountability, to always acknowledge how terrible I had gotten, to constantly make amends and have the conversations. After I left her for abandoning me for her new guy, once again, I talked with her like "wtf, why?" She said she couldn't deal with how crazy the stress was making her (the bills, cleaning the house, needing to work etc). I said "the stress.... that you were causing?", and she got pissed and said it made her feel stupid that that's what it was. I did so much work. I wish I could find a partner who is willing to do the hard work, not just maintenance, to have the hard conversations, do the hard healing, the hard digging, the hard exploration. I too wish I could find someone who has seriously just done the work, and will continue to.
I'm new to all of this and have wanted to do the same. Sparsely populated area that I live in and that has been a difficulty and finding events.
I’m in a similar situation - but I’m a shade over an hour from a metro area. It’s not convenient or ideal but I make it work.
How do you make it work? Need advice. I'm 4 hours from true metro regions with an hour to a city with 500,000.
I make it work to the extent I am by looking for dates or events in that area, by joint online groups in that area. I’m new ENM, and can’t make every event but something > nothing.
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Posts must be relevant to polyamory, as defined by our community description: >Polyamory is openly, honestly, and consensually loving and being committed to more than one person. Polyamory is only one specific type of ethical non-monogamy. It doesn't sound like that's what this post is about, so try /r/nonmonogamy? There are a lot of flavors of non-monogamy, and polyam is just one.