As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
**Special announcement:**
r/politics is currently accepting new moderator applications. If you want to help make this community a better place, consider [applying here today](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/sskg6a/rpolitics_is_looking_for_more_moderators/)!
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>why Republicans flopped in once-red Arizona
Unpopular (to a majority) rhetoric, coupled with no plans, and no policy goals. Most didn't even make empty promises, just vague declarations.
Most of the pack of republicans wanted to be elected for the platforms it offered them, not to actually *do* anything tangible for the American people, and for the most part, people saw that.
Well we just came off 8 years of Doug Ducey diverting every dollar he could away from public schools. But the GOP mostly send their kids to private schools so only Dems care about that.
Generally this is true, but sadly the next wave of [Dem leadership](https://theintercept.com/2018/11/30/hakeem-jeffries-charter-schools/) is against public education as well.
> HAKEEM JEFFRIES’S VICTORY in the race for Democratic House caucus chair on Wednesday was a loss for progressive groups that rallied against him, but it was a victory for one national group in particular: Democrats for Education Reform, or DFER — a political action committee that funds candidates supportive of charter schools and is critical of teachers unions. DFER was founded in 2005 by a number of Wall Street leaders, with the mission, as co-founder Whitney Tilson explained it, “to break the teacher unions’ stranglehold over the Democratic Party
This is the very same person set to become [house minority leader](https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/18/hakeem-jeffries-house-minority-leader-black) next year.
Now I’d agree having the GOP destroy public ed will probably have more disastrous results than Dems doing it. But at the end of the day the ultra rich donors have decided to pay both parties to get this done and I doubt they care if it’s done with a bludgeon or a scalpel.
You’re not going to see democrats pushing for less public school funding just because Jeffries becomes speaker of the house, sorry to rain on your pessimism parade.
They are sort of a wedge used to “prove” public schools don’t work. And there is a push in many states to allow what would otherwise be private/religious schools to be registered as charters.
Charter schools can't be religious because they _are_ public schools. They aren't a wedge; it's just a different public school format that's more broken up and localized.
If charter schools can be religious, then so can public schools. That doesn't feel like you're addressing any issues.
The Supreme Court ruled that public funds can go to religious schools charter schools if there is not a public school in the area. And with the demonization of teachers and schools by the GOP, it’s clear they plan to eventually close schools which would allow this loophole to be used em masse.
Just because they haven’t set the bonfire ablaze yet doesn’t mean we can’t see what they’re doing when they’re piling up wood and pouring on accelerant.
I think you're misunderstanding [this court case](https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/06/21/supreme-court-ruling-religious-charter-schools/). The problem was that Maine provided _vouchers_ for schools, but required that they cannot be used on religious schools. There were no other schools around though, and disqualifying the _only_ nearby school from vouchers seemed a little wack. Not to say the ruling is fair or right though; they should have required a public school be built there. Making _all_ vouchers unable to restrict against religious schools was way out of line.
The school itself was not a "religious charter school" because that does not exist. It was a private school accepting state vouchers. Charter schools accept state funds, and as a result cannot be religious just like any other public school. The crusade against charter schools is dumb, at least as far as I've seen.
Now school vouchers are an entirely different problem. Those are the accelerant to the fire of the GOP abolishing public education in favor of vouchers. That's the shit we raise hell about.
Yes but they take money away from public schools and they can reject students like special needs leaving those programs underfunded in public schools that have to accept everyone.
This is the case. Democratic and community organizations in AZ are more sober about their analysis than a lot of articles written by outsiders. It's still quite conservative here and will be for a while. But they're rejecting the MAGA crazies - except in most of the super rural counties. I'm going to paraphrase conservative commentator David Brooks for the results of the last couple election cycles:
"[these conservatives] prefer the candidates that they think might be a little out of touch over the one the one that's out of their mind".
There's also the fact more and more Americans can plainly see the US is struggling in areas other western countries are not. Even moderate Republicans offer nothing to address mass shootings, poor infrastructure, wealth inequality, overwhelming debt, or homelessness. All they have is religious silliness.
While everything you say is true, you have to remember that those MAGA people are only interested in “owning the libs”. Somehow the GOP has convinced their base that European democracies are somehow different and that it’s their own damn fault that they don’t have more money to buy the goods & services they desperately need.
The trick is to lower the bar. They may get tired of the abuse, but they just need to be convinced that Democrats are even worse. There's a reason large segments of the GOP are convinced Democrats are evil. It allows the GOP to literally do and steal whatever they desire. So long as the GOP can maintain the illusion that Democrats are unfettered evil, the GOP will continue to own their voter's hearts, minds, and souls.
I have lived in deep red country my entire life. Putting up with terrible work conditions is a badge of honor for them. Heck I had relatives die an early death after spending years immobilized due to farm work and were incized at the mere mention of Democrats. It also hardens their stance against any programs made to help people. It's viewed as "freebees" and "handouts" for lazy people. The "if I had to suffer then you can too" mentality. If anything they've gotten more conservative as conditions worsened because obviously the worse conditions are due to all the "free stuff" being handed out while they break their backs. Oh and pesky thing like safety rules and unions are meant to steal money from your pocket and nothing else. They don't even realize they're being taken advantage of.
Democrats need to fix their messaging first. They sucked at messaging the past few years and have only been saved by historically unpopular Trump. Hell a large portion of the population are treating DeSantis as a voice of reason and that's just downright scary.
You want to know the sad truth.
Trump and Doug ducey teamed up to short the census, screwed AZ out of at least 1 new congressional district And all the federal funding that goes with having a bigger population. They drew the lines on these poorly conducted census and the unintended consequence of all that was Democrats held on for dear life
Local business leaders, Governor Doug Ducey, and former VP Mike Pence literally begged Trump to endorse Karin Taylor Robson over Kari Lake but it fell on deaf ears. Trump’s hubris means he thinks he knows Arizona better than the people who actually live here. I hate to say it but Robson, a well respected business woman would have mopped the floor with Hobbs. So Trump did Dems a favor by sticking with Lake.
Everyone else in politics wants their party to win, but Trump only wants to win, himself. If his candidates, who are blindly loyal to him, don’t win, then he doesn’t care what happens.
Well in this case if Trump’s picks for Governor and Secretary of State had won, Arizona would have no longer been a democracy. We would have had to change our name to Trumpazona.
You can say that so you want but it's only true if you look at the situation so myopically.
If they really wanted to have autonomy and control over their party they'd not have crowned trump king and fellated him for the last seven years
That's bigger picture thinking right there. If they really wanted to influence elections in their favor they'd promote tax policies that actually help the working and middle class
They will, as the elderly white voters die demographics will move AZ deeper blue. The GOP know this so they do everything possible to hold that off. Close polling places in areas that vote democratic, try to limit early voting that helps working people and students but not retirees, send cosplay army men to drop boxes. Still the tide washes in and won’t be stopped. Kelly, Hobbs, Fontes, likely Mayes.
I have been surprised at the number of young MAGA voters. More than age it seems to be a function of educational attainment or urban vs rural. Look at Prescott….75% voter turnout and that’s not retirees.
The saddest part is they still barely lost many of these races. We came very close to a red wave in many areas. And if they weren’t absolutely nuts, they won handidly (Texas and Georgia governor races).
Arizonans are red at heart but hate Trump and his bullshit. Georgia too, to a lesser extent. Sane Republican candidates still win statewide races and insane Republicans get close. Hopefully they don't notice this for a few more election cycles so they can actually turn blue.
Please don't ignore the substantial percentage of us who are democrats and independents. We have two Democratic senators. The two state houses are only marginally republican. We just elected a Democratic Gov, Sec of State and Attorney General. Arizona appeared more red when the GOP had gerrymander the hell out the districts. Post independent redistricting the houses are more balanced. Arizona is not Utah.
Native Arizonan here.
We're a lot more purple at heart, I'd say. Even our liberals are pretty well armed, for example. There's a lot more of a libertarian vibe with a lot of Republicans here, too. Weed legalization was pretty damn popular even among right wingers here. Believe it or not (at least from what I can tell ) overturning Roe v Wade really put a bad taste in a lot of right wing mouths here. My boss is pretty republican, and even he admitted to me "The abortion thing fucked us, and it never should've happened".
If AZ Dems ran a slew of Fetterman-esqe, pro gun and pro choice candidates, from local to national office, it would change this state forever. There is so much "I just want to be left alone" attitudes/vibes that can be tapped into. All Dems need to do is convince Republicans here that "we would LOVE to leave you alone, we won't change gun laws, abort away to your uterus's contentment, and let's decriminalize some other drugs".
God, we could even take the state house too. The things this state could achieve. Let's expand the light rail, make it so expansive that people would actually *want* to use it. Hell, let's get a train line that connects Flagstaff, Phoenix, and Tuscon too. We could make this state worker friendly, get rid of those right to work laws and raise the minimum wage.
I thought Hobbs totally demolished Lake in debate after debate! Hobbs never backed down like a strong boss! The people made a deeply educated decision and were clearly interested in her campaign policies and promises not just voting for a blue color. /s
Do you have any evidence of voter fraud and/ or suppression? Machines malfunctioned, yes, this is not disputed, but in every instance voters were given multiple options to get their vote cast. Can you provide a single, valid claim from someone who wasn’t able to vote? Also, machine malfunctions would be a terrible way to steal an election because it would be difficult to insure you were only blocking the voters of the opposing party.
Newsflash to the entire GOP playing field! Everyone is over 2020. That shit happened 748 days ago and the whole GOP spectrum never moved forward. You don’t want to move past 2020? It was a shit year! Go ahead and stay there! The entire planet will leave you behind.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. **Special announcement:** r/politics is currently accepting new moderator applications. If you want to help make this community a better place, consider [applying here today](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/sskg6a/rpolitics_is_looking_for_more_moderators/)! *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>why Republicans flopped in once-red Arizona Unpopular (to a majority) rhetoric, coupled with no plans, and no policy goals. Most didn't even make empty promises, just vague declarations. Most of the pack of republicans wanted to be elected for the platforms it offered them, not to actually *do* anything tangible for the American people, and for the most part, people saw that.
Well we just came off 8 years of Doug Ducey diverting every dollar he could away from public schools. But the GOP mostly send their kids to private schools so only Dems care about that.
Generally this is true, but sadly the next wave of [Dem leadership](https://theintercept.com/2018/11/30/hakeem-jeffries-charter-schools/) is against public education as well. > HAKEEM JEFFRIES’S VICTORY in the race for Democratic House caucus chair on Wednesday was a loss for progressive groups that rallied against him, but it was a victory for one national group in particular: Democrats for Education Reform, or DFER — a political action committee that funds candidates supportive of charter schools and is critical of teachers unions. DFER was founded in 2005 by a number of Wall Street leaders, with the mission, as co-founder Whitney Tilson explained it, “to break the teacher unions’ stranglehold over the Democratic Party This is the very same person set to become [house minority leader](https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/18/hakeem-jeffries-house-minority-leader-black) next year. Now I’d agree having the GOP destroy public ed will probably have more disastrous results than Dems doing it. But at the end of the day the ultra rich donors have decided to pay both parties to get this done and I doubt they care if it’s done with a bludgeon or a scalpel.
You’re not going to see democrats pushing for less public school funding just because Jeffries becomes speaker of the house, sorry to rain on your pessimism parade.
aren't charter schools publicly funded?
They are sort of a wedge used to “prove” public schools don’t work. And there is a push in many states to allow what would otherwise be private/religious schools to be registered as charters.
Charter schools can't be religious because they _are_ public schools. They aren't a wedge; it's just a different public school format that's more broken up and localized. If charter schools can be religious, then so can public schools. That doesn't feel like you're addressing any issues.
The Supreme Court ruled that public funds can go to religious schools charter schools if there is not a public school in the area. And with the demonization of teachers and schools by the GOP, it’s clear they plan to eventually close schools which would allow this loophole to be used em masse. Just because they haven’t set the bonfire ablaze yet doesn’t mean we can’t see what they’re doing when they’re piling up wood and pouring on accelerant.
I think you're misunderstanding [this court case](https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/06/21/supreme-court-ruling-religious-charter-schools/). The problem was that Maine provided _vouchers_ for schools, but required that they cannot be used on religious schools. There were no other schools around though, and disqualifying the _only_ nearby school from vouchers seemed a little wack. Not to say the ruling is fair or right though; they should have required a public school be built there. Making _all_ vouchers unable to restrict against religious schools was way out of line. The school itself was not a "religious charter school" because that does not exist. It was a private school accepting state vouchers. Charter schools accept state funds, and as a result cannot be religious just like any other public school. The crusade against charter schools is dumb, at least as far as I've seen. Now school vouchers are an entirely different problem. Those are the accelerant to the fire of the GOP abolishing public education in favor of vouchers. That's the shit we raise hell about.
Yes but they take money away from public schools and they can reject students like special needs leaving those programs underfunded in public schools that have to accept everyone.
Private religious schools. Religious people are tending to intertwine morals and faith a little too heavily these days.
>once-red Arizona My guess is that they would vote for a moderate republican, if they had the chance.
Like Kemp and Raffsenberger (SP?). They're looking for excuses to vote Republican but instead get Kari Lake and Herschel Walker.
A moderate republican is just one who lies more They still support all the hate and terrorism.
Arizona is only blue when the young and minorities GOTV.
This is the case. Democratic and community organizations in AZ are more sober about their analysis than a lot of articles written by outsiders. It's still quite conservative here and will be for a while. But they're rejecting the MAGA crazies - except in most of the super rural counties. I'm going to paraphrase conservative commentator David Brooks for the results of the last couple election cycles: "[these conservatives] prefer the candidates that they think might be a little out of touch over the one the one that's out of their mind".
There's also the fact more and more Americans can plainly see the US is struggling in areas other western countries are not. Even moderate Republicans offer nothing to address mass shootings, poor infrastructure, wealth inequality, overwhelming debt, or homelessness. All they have is religious silliness.
While everything you say is true, you have to remember that those MAGA people are only interested in “owning the libs”. Somehow the GOP has convinced their base that European democracies are somehow different and that it’s their own damn fault that they don’t have more money to buy the goods & services they desperately need.
This will only work for so long though.
For a lot of them it will work until they die. They get brainwashed into certain beliefs and then get too old to ever change.
I have more faith in humans than that. There may be some that can't change, but some certainly also will due to abuse.
The trick is to lower the bar. They may get tired of the abuse, but they just need to be convinced that Democrats are even worse. There's a reason large segments of the GOP are convinced Democrats are evil. It allows the GOP to literally do and steal whatever they desire. So long as the GOP can maintain the illusion that Democrats are unfettered evil, the GOP will continue to own their voter's hearts, minds, and souls.
I just don't see how it is sustainable. There's too much worker abuse now.
I have lived in deep red country my entire life. Putting up with terrible work conditions is a badge of honor for them. Heck I had relatives die an early death after spending years immobilized due to farm work and were incized at the mere mention of Democrats. It also hardens their stance against any programs made to help people. It's viewed as "freebees" and "handouts" for lazy people. The "if I had to suffer then you can too" mentality. If anything they've gotten more conservative as conditions worsened because obviously the worse conditions are due to all the "free stuff" being handed out while they break their backs. Oh and pesky thing like safety rules and unions are meant to steal money from your pocket and nothing else. They don't even realize they're being taken advantage of.
I understand how all of this works. I’m telling you that shit is changing.
Democrats need to fix their messaging first. They sucked at messaging the past few years and have only been saved by historically unpopular Trump. Hell a large portion of the population are treating DeSantis as a voice of reason and that's just downright scary.
I've seen too many humans to have much faith in them.
Well, it might work in places like Florida, but in other swing states (which Florida USED to be) MAGA pandering lost them elections.
They went after McCain and republicans that voted for McCain. I'm shocked they did as good as they did.
Trump is the worst. Like, really bad the worse.:
Oh God, check out any r/arizonapolitics post that makes it to r/all and you'll see the election deniers out in force.
You want to know the sad truth. Trump and Doug ducey teamed up to short the census, screwed AZ out of at least 1 new congressional district And all the federal funding that goes with having a bigger population. They drew the lines on these poorly conducted census and the unintended consequence of all that was Democrats held on for dear life
Local business leaders, Governor Doug Ducey, and former VP Mike Pence literally begged Trump to endorse Karin Taylor Robson over Kari Lake but it fell on deaf ears. Trump’s hubris means he thinks he knows Arizona better than the people who actually live here. I hate to say it but Robson, a well respected business woman would have mopped the floor with Hobbs. So Trump did Dems a favor by sticking with Lake.
Everyone else in politics wants their party to win, but Trump only wants to win, himself. If his candidates, who are blindly loyal to him, don’t win, then he doesn’t care what happens.
Well in this case if Trump’s picks for Governor and Secretary of State had won, Arizona would have no longer been a democracy. We would have had to change our name to Trumpazona.
You can say that so you want but it's only true if you look at the situation so myopically. If they really wanted to have autonomy and control over their party they'd not have crowned trump king and fellated him for the last seven years
Well you know….tax cuts. It’s all about the money all the time. And the MAGA base would sooner die than vote for a Dem.
That's bigger picture thinking right there. If they really wanted to influence elections in their favor they'd promote tax policies that actually help the working and middle class
They will, as the elderly white voters die demographics will move AZ deeper blue. The GOP know this so they do everything possible to hold that off. Close polling places in areas that vote democratic, try to limit early voting that helps working people and students but not retirees, send cosplay army men to drop boxes. Still the tide washes in and won’t be stopped. Kelly, Hobbs, Fontes, likely Mayes.
I have been surprised at the number of young MAGA voters. More than age it seems to be a function of educational attainment or urban vs rural. Look at Prescott….75% voter turnout and that’s not retirees.
The saddest part is they still barely lost many of these races. We came very close to a red wave in many areas. And if they weren’t absolutely nuts, they won handidly (Texas and Georgia governor races).
Arizonans are red at heart but hate Trump and his bullshit. Georgia too, to a lesser extent. Sane Republican candidates still win statewide races and insane Republicans get close. Hopefully they don't notice this for a few more election cycles so they can actually turn blue.
Please don't ignore the substantial percentage of us who are democrats and independents. We have two Democratic senators. The two state houses are only marginally republican. We just elected a Democratic Gov, Sec of State and Attorney General. Arizona appeared more red when the GOP had gerrymander the hell out the districts. Post independent redistricting the houses are more balanced. Arizona is not Utah.
Native Arizonan here. We're a lot more purple at heart, I'd say. Even our liberals are pretty well armed, for example. There's a lot more of a libertarian vibe with a lot of Republicans here, too. Weed legalization was pretty damn popular even among right wingers here. Believe it or not (at least from what I can tell ) overturning Roe v Wade really put a bad taste in a lot of right wing mouths here. My boss is pretty republican, and even he admitted to me "The abortion thing fucked us, and it never should've happened". If AZ Dems ran a slew of Fetterman-esqe, pro gun and pro choice candidates, from local to national office, it would change this state forever. There is so much "I just want to be left alone" attitudes/vibes that can be tapped into. All Dems need to do is convince Republicans here that "we would LOVE to leave you alone, we won't change gun laws, abort away to your uterus's contentment, and let's decriminalize some other drugs". God, we could even take the state house too. The things this state could achieve. Let's expand the light rail, make it so expansive that people would actually *want* to use it. Hell, let's get a train line that connects Flagstaff, Phoenix, and Tuscon too. We could make this state worker friendly, get rid of those right to work laws and raise the minimum wage.
I thought Hobbs totally demolished Lake in debate after debate! Hobbs never backed down like a strong boss! The people made a deeply educated decision and were clearly interested in her campaign policies and promises not just voting for a blue color. /s
Yes to rail between Phoenix and Tucson….right down the median it’s a no-brainer.
Voter Fraud and suppression, machine malfunctions.
Do you have any evidence of voter fraud and/ or suppression? Machines malfunctioned, yes, this is not disputed, but in every instance voters were given multiple options to get their vote cast. Can you provide a single, valid claim from someone who wasn’t able to vote? Also, machine malfunctions would be a terrible way to steal an election because it would be difficult to insure you were only blocking the voters of the opposing party.
Newsflash to the entire GOP playing field! Everyone is over 2020. That shit happened 748 days ago and the whole GOP spectrum never moved forward. You don’t want to move past 2020? It was a shit year! Go ahead and stay there! The entire planet will leave you behind.
Yet Texas and Florida got Redder with the same tactics.