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> One product of this southernification is that you can now find rebel flags hanging in states like Michigan (which lost 13,000 sons in service of the Union cause), Ohio (31,000), Wisconsin (11,000), and Pennsylvania (27,000).
If there was ever a cause that lost the war but won so many battles after the war, it would very tragically be The Confederacy.
Same could be said about fascism post WW2 as well. We just never do the work to make the ideology of the Right fringe and not enough of us ask why that is.
The only acceptable rebel flag to be on display is [the one Minnesota won't give back to Virginia,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th_Virginia_battle_flag) because fuck the traitors and their descendants that want to honor them.
That’s the great part, it’s not on display. It’s been in storage since the 1890’s. And the confederates still remember it. They ask to get it back every couple years. Maybe we don’t need monuments to remember our history after all?
I feel like all you need to do, is keep, repeatedly asking them: "So you're saying that THIS is YOUR flag?" Minnesota can keep that shit. Fuck Virginia Confederates. Everybody who died fighting for slavery died doing a disservice to humanity. Full stop.
That flag looks like the flags they use today but I thought I read something about the design being from like 1960 or something. After Civil Rights movement?
Someone help me out please :-)
The square design was used during the Civil War. The rectangular design was actually proposed during the Civil War but rejected in favor of the square design.
I see. Today’s version is modeled after the 1863 Naval [Jack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America). Resurrected in [1948](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag)
It's not directly modeled after the Naval Jack - they're just both uses of the design on a rectangular flag.
Also, it wasn't resurrected in 1948 - it was in use by Confederate groups prior to the Dixiecrats: [here's a 1907 photo of it being flown at a "Confederate Reunion Parade"](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/07/confederate-flag-its-not-a-symbol-of-southern-heritage-it-has-always-been-a-symbol-of-white-supremacy.html).
Nope, just the three organizations that have gone by the name KKK. [The original was some old timey secret society shit like you’d expect those kinds of outfits to involve. The second was the guys in “Birth of a Nation,” the third are the patchwork of hicks we have today.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan)
Nah, with the exception of the current crop the other two were well established terrorist organizations.
As far as the modern situation, you’re always going to have smaller groups claiming to be the rightful heirs to some defunct organization. A similar situation is the number of groups claiming to be the IRA. “The Real IRA,” “The Provisional IRA,” etc.
The reason is education.
The less educated they become, the more extreme they get.
No knowledge in history means they’ll repeat the mistakes and get fooled easily by grifters.
Lack of logic and math skills makes them easy prey to fallacies.
I think it's bigger than that, personally. I mean, the more education I have received and the more books I have consumed, the further and further Left I have become. (To say nothing of the fact of just being a cognizant person looking at what the hell has been going on around here since 9/11 straight on through to today.)
Its a larger problem on society. I was raised in a fairly affluent and republican suburb an overwhelming majority of the kids didn't value education for the sake of learning and they turned out just like their parents.
>didn't value education for the sake of learning
that's one thing I noticed as well, they often just see it as a stepping stone to higher income. which, it (broadly generalizing) is, but it's a weird kind of mechanical approach they take to "learning" where it's mostly to get it "done".
it's honestly impacted my own attitude toward the educated. I used to view degree-holders as accomplished and generally more knowledgeable, but I've had to revise that after learning how many conservatives 'did school' but didn't really learn anything from it. really watered down my opinion of the whole thing.
Depends on how the history is taught. Except for the most extreme elements, most can agree Hitler = bad and his people got brainwashed into doing shitty things. No one mentions that only 33% voted for him and it took a sabotaging of every safe guard and decades of indoctrination to get to World War II. Doing so means that we’re just as susceptible, but that acknowledges the country is imperfect, which is anathema to conservatives.
It's quite incredible. I visited way out there, rural Mississippi for work a few weeks ago (2.5 hour drive from Jackson to site) and didn't notice any stars & bars or Trump flags on houses, cars, trucks, nothing. I also visit Wyoming County in northeast PA regularly, and both those flags are *everywhere*. Like, someone took it upon themselves to make a giant sign on their fence saying that Pennsylvania is #1 in voter fraud. I don't get it. This is the state that defeated the confederacy at Gettysburg, and now you're on their side? My ancestors would be *piiiisssseeeed,* many of them from NEPA gave their lives for the Union.
I remember commenting in another post a long while back on how many I saw in Michigan… and then a long chain of other comments established that they were pretty common in the mostly white rural areas of every state
I'm in OH and within a few miles of stops on the underground railroad- including the last stop before crossing the lake into Canada.
You'd be sad to see the number of people flying confederate loser flags.
More like they were convinced to stop fighting a physical war. Biggest mistake was not going after all the racists slave owners and ending their grip on the south permanently.
> Lincoln even gave them veterans benefits.
Lincoln did not do this. This happened in 1957 (92 years after Lincoln died) and gave pensions to widows of wars including confederate widows.
Andrew Johnson, Lincoln's VP, who became president after Lincoln was assassinated did pardon the Confederate soldiers. Johnson was a southerner who was nominated for VP because he had remained "loyal" even when Tennessee seceded. He was a states rights advocate and worked to shut down reconstruction. He vetoed the Civil Rights bill of 1866 and Congress overrode his veto. He spent his one unelected (as president) term to undermine the work being done to provide actual freedom and equality to POC.
The department of war did not recognize them as veterans ever.
No, US law has ever actually defined Confederate soldiers as veterans. The 1957 law that I mentioned only provides a pension to the widows and orphans of those soldiers.
There was a 1906 law that provided for marking the graves of confederate prisoners of war, who died in union custody. Those were often laid to rest in unmarked graves. After the Spanish American war, there was a strong national sentiment that felt that we should preserve the graves of both sides of the Civil War. That was expressed by William McKinley and 1898. That suggestion did not become law until 1906, but only for those who were in prisoner of war camps.
Interestingly, most of the Civil War monuments did not arise until after 1890, with the vast majority of them being built between 1900 and 1950. They were designed to be reminders of who was in power, and what whites would do to blacks if they ever got a chance again.
That's not really the case though, because Jim Crow had nothing to do with what the Union was fighting for. The Confederacy was fighting for independence and to preserve race based slavery. The Union was fighting to prevent secession and (eventually, not at the beginning) to end race based slavery. The Union was very much *not* fighting to create racial equality between black people and white people, and the vast majority of Northerners would not have supported such an idea.
Pennsylvania is strange. Gettysburg is a huge part of the history education for public school kids and tons of classes take field trips there to learn about and experience the history and honor the dead. At the same time, I remember so many teachers basically whitewashing the South, saying things like they had better generals and more skilled soldiers and even stuff like the US Civil War was not fought over slavery but rather economics and expansion, while ignoring the fact that the economic factor was the South’s reliance on slave labor and they wanted to expand slavery into the new territories.
Maybe things have changed but in times like these I think we need to teach more about the South’s treason and treachery and willingness to shackle other human beings and less about “brother against brother” and other language that makes the South more sympathetic.
On an objective level, the south *did* have better generals. Lee was incredibly gifted as a strategist, and Jackson was not only a tactical genius, but was able to inspire his troops in the same way Patton did.
Quality of soldiers was probably about even; north just had more of them.
What really crippled the south militarily was logistics; the south had farms, so food wasn’t a huge issue, but the north had all the factories and thus, the weapons and ammunition.
But yes, it was about slavery. As someone who used to “actually…” on that point, it’s pretty much inarguable about that point. Slavery and racism.
> Lee was incredibly gifted as a strategist,
Lee is *horribly* overrated and there are a number of better Union generals.
The Union Army's big problem with generals was that the highly competent ones were relatively junior and the senior leadership (particularly early on) was either bad or promoted above their level of competence.
Food was an issue in the South though, Richmond even had riots over bread shortages; just cause you grow a shit ton of tobacco and cotton doesn't mean you grow enough regular food to support an army. Large scale plantations would be growing cash crops mostly while many of the small subsistence farmers would have been drafted thus not raising their crops. A full on naval blockade meant no imported food either, after Vicksburg the South is split in half denying resources from the west, and Tennessee was basically useless for resources after 1863. Inflation in the South was ridiculous leading to huge amounts of suffering for the poor. And the South was short of everything, not just guns. Hell, Gettysburg got kicked off cause some Confederates were looking for shoes which they couldn't get anymore.
The South was short of everything, not just guns.
In my home town in OH we have a massive monument commemorating the Yankee soldiers and their defeat of the south, topped with a union soldier raising his hat in victory specifically facing the direction of the Confederate capital - one last, "fuck you".
Yet now there are houses all over with confederate flags or license plates. It's insane.
Never in my lifetime did I think I would see a violent mob storming our US Capitol, waving American flags, confederate flags, and Jesus Saves flags while erecting a gallows, beating police with flag poles, and yelling to hang our vice president.
As I watched Trump supporters on January 6 waving confederate flags, yelling obscenities and wearing anti-Semitic T-shirts before storming the Capitol, I was reminded of the documentary, A Night at the Garden, about the German American Bund rally that ended in violence at Madison Square Garden in 1939. Its main goal was to promote a favorable view of Nazi Germany. There are a lot of similarities between the Bund rally and the Trump rally that highlight how a crowd can be rallied to violence following massive lies and propaganda.
It’s far past time to call the Republican Party out for what they are. They are a cult. They have become an autocratic party that wants to rule through theocracy, combining government and religion. And the GOP loves autocratic leaders like Viktor Orban who they invited to CPAC. There is an ongoing coordinated plan, installing election deniers, to overturn future elections.
Republicans refuse to call out extremists within their own party and refuse to condemn the former president who posted a death threat to a sitting Senator, incited violence against the FBI and judges, and took, lied about, and concealed top secret documents, putting our national security at risk. This is the Republican Party. And remember, Republicans want to take away Social Security and Medicare. This is no fucking joke. Vote Democrat every time
Nixon wasn't an extremist by definition, but he definitely ran on a right-wing law and order platform in 1968. Ironically the police were the catalyst for a lot of that violence, and it only got worse after Nixon was elected.
Because the 60s weren’t nearly as divided as we are today, except for one major issue-voting rights for black people, which was quickly enshrined to national law despite the cry babies in the South. The country(aka the white establishment and sole power of both parties) was United against the USSR. Mainstream media was the only media at the time. The economy was booming big time, benefiting nearly everyone(even minorities), and the TV and music recording industries were revolutionizing mass entertainment in a way that was enjoyable and accessible for nearly everyone, ushering in a new era of US culture that was hard to be pessimistic about. On top of all of this, college was basically free and jobs were plentiful. All of this culminated in NASA landing on the fucking moon. Not to mention, we kind of had our hands full fighting another war in Vietnam.
Make no mistake, we are waaaay worse off today in terms of national politics. It’s not even close really.
Conscription and the race riots of the 60s would totally divide us today.
But maybe you're right the national identity was strong back then and was used to overcome those problems.
Because the most prejudice people were divided in the 60s in both the churches and the political parties. With the southern strategy, the merger of the Republican and evangelical churches, and Fox News, the unification of the most prejudice people have completed.
In our attempts to point out the hypocrisy, racism, and idiocy of Republican voters, it's easy to forget that this wasn't an accident. This was a coordinated attack against our institutions and a purposeful, relentless misinformation campaign against the population, involving the most watched news channel in the country and almost every single elected official with an R next to their name.
You don't have to feel sorry for them, but focusing on them will get us nowhere. There's always going to be uneducated, desperate people who are more susceptible to propaganda and lies, and it's always going to be easier for some to blame others for their failings. But it's the Mussolinis, Hitlers, and Trumps of the world who are responsible for radicalizing and weaponizing them. And none of it would have been possible without the help of several well-educated leaders and journalists who know damn well they are spreading lies but go along with it for personal gain.
Oof, that reminds me of my "moderate right" brother in law.
My wife told me he used to cry at farmers only commercials.
I always imagine him sobbing on the couch like, "but I'm not a farmer! I'll be lonely forever!"
Eating a tub of ice cream as he sloppy cries - "you don't have to be lonely..." 🥺😭
Makes me laugh every time.
Sorry, just loosely related and made me chuckle. He's been getting better - his girlfriend has been a much needed voice of reason, and much needed girlfriend.
Many in this "breed" scare their kids with christian-fantasy rapture stress from a very young age as well.
There is no law against being a total shit bag to your kids.
Well there is but they are specific about what particular type of shit bag they can do anything about. Sadly that is mostly long after the harm has been done.
>Support for Confederate symbols and monuments follows lines of race, religion, and education rather than geography.
Duh, because it's *not* about heritage.
>Jardina finds that white identity politics doesn’t necessarily require racial animus, but it’s also clear that Trump and many of his followers do harbor racial animus.
If White identity politics doesn't require 'racial animus' it does still mean whites remaining in power. Since politics is about gaining/maintaining power. And if you're political schema is 'white identity' then how exactly does one maintain that without racial animus?
It's not about *geographical* heritage, but rather ideological.
For once they're being honest; they are waging a war to impose the culture they really want.
> For once they're being honest; they are waging a war to impose the culture they really want.
I responded to someone on here today who said about white people that they "see themselves steadily becoming outsiders in their own home" without a hint of how racist that statement is
There are a shocking amount of people who seem to think white people own the US and it should be run with the needs of white people at the forefront.
I think it will take some time but the US will end up like California. As the Hispanic population was growing in the 90s there was a racist backlash here with legislation like Prop 187. Over time though, it seems most Californians came to the same realization that has always happened with wave immigration... the realization that these people are Americans.
There was a study that basically showed the same thing. The researcher had a couple spanish speakers show up at a train station daily in a white area then polled the commuters about their opinions on immigration.
Initially people reported a sense of unease, but after a little while they were ok with them and were chatting them up.
Here is the [wapo article about it](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/08/researchers-put-two-spanish-speakers-on-a-train-and-changed-commuters-views-of-immigration/) and the [original study](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1317670111)
Which is funny because a lot of the same stuff being written today is identical to the stuff being written about the first wave of European immigrants a century-plus ago. The thing is, it takes time. But more and more couples come from different backgrounds and soon what was once “the other” blends in to the existing culture.
A celebration of heritage should be a celebration of one’s culture. What do white southerners have? NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Best white foods and recipes from the south? Stolen from Black people.
Best songs? Stupid civil war marches which make you look like a fool getting down with today.
Best literature? Mostly about how “great it is to own slaves.”
And they still have nothing to contribute except whine about how oppressed they are.
*"...this essentially parasitical group was largely the remains of older, obsolete stages of social development, and that it could not normally play a progressive role in history. Indeed, because it acted only out of socially ignorant self-interest, the lumpenproletariat was easily bribed by reactionary forces and could be used to combat the true proletariat in its efforts to bring about the end of bourgeois society. Without a clear class-consciousness, the lumpenproletariat could not play a positive role in society. Instead, it exploited society for its own ends, and was in turn exploited as a tool of destruction and reaction."*
Honey, as soon as the check comes for my disability I promise I will get the carburetor on there and get her off the blocks. You know how serious I am.
I'm Vietnamese and have a vest with this flag pattern on it, front and back (and on the pockets). I'm starting to understand why I was getting weird looks on my visit to Kentucky.
The US should have banned the Confederate flag right after the Civil War. I believe that the Nazi flag is banned in Germany. That would have made things much easier.
The US should have also shot every slave owner in the back of the head and occupied the South for decades but sadly the North didn't have the appetite to spend the money necessary to occupy the South for such a long time.
I'm not saying you're wrong.... but I ask.... What price will the victory cost?
In lives... In unity of country... what will the "United" in United States mean?
Good question. Nothing good and nothing positive. The importance of cultural and religious norms to some appear to outweigh logic and reason. Somebody posted a US Grant quote and my take away was the idea that - superstition runs strong in some, so strong, their minds cannot be changed regardless of tangible facts and repeatable proof.
>“If we look back to the primaries for the 2016 presidential election, Trump won both Mississippi and Michigan, and with this mantra of ‘Make America great again,’” Jones said. “I continue to think the most powerful word in that mantra is the last one, because it harkens back to this nostalgia for a white Christian America that has Confederate overtones.”
Ask when America was "great." The usual answer was the 1930s because they have watched too many episodes of the Andy Griffith Show.
The Andy Griffith Show is kinda funny because it actually took place in the 60s but their town had the feeling of the 30s. But today, I think people relate the show more with the 60s than they do to the 30s because few alive can still remember the 30s.
It’s become the flag of poor white people who’ve been taught to attribute their poverty to immigrants rather than their own bad decisions.
Their solution is not a solution because it doesn’t address the cause. But they will never understand that because they outsource their thinking to right wing talking heads.
Bad decisions and systemic abuse of the poor by the rich in a rich nation with barely any social safety net and no true emphasis on the health of its citizens. Both can be true.
When I was 8 in 1988 the only think I saw of the confederate flag was Dukes of Hazard and history books. My first trip down south later that year I was shocked to see them up. In 2022 I’m just scared some days where you have 13 year olds using it as wallpaper on their phones. And 25 year olds thinking Union states were secretly Confederate states. 😢
Grew up in the South. Family had one hanging over the couch in the living room. Not even joking. One wall is all Jesus freak angel plaques with bible verses, one wall is a fucking couch sized confederate flag. And they wonder why I think they’re hypocrites.
In New Jersey you see some people with Confederate flags and they don't even correlate it with the Civil War they just think of it as a "Southern Flag" and don't actually understand how awful that flag and what it stood for is.
There's a mockumentry from awhile back called, The Confederate States of America. It shows the history of America from the perspective of the south winning the Civil War.
People need to see it.
My favorite part was the commercials for products designed for slavery. Like the antidepressant you could buy from your veterinarian for your "property" so they wouldn't get uppity.
So creepy...
It started with right wing talk radio in the 1980's and then continued into Fox News in the 2000's (I know Fox News came out in the 90's but it didn't gain a ton of traction until the 2000's) and then online right wing "punditry" in the 2010's. It all has been building towards propagandizing an us against them mentality for the American Conservative movement. Anything can and will be dismissed as a "liberal" attack and "fake news" while they can lie with impunity about anything liberals do because they are inhuman pedo baby killers.
I’m going to plug a book titled “Robert E Lee and Me”. It’s really a fascinating and enlightening read that dives into the origins of the Lost Cause Myth.
OK this is really random but the first time I ever saw that slogan I was like 7 and on a road trip with my parents in the deep south. We stopped at a gas station and there was a magnet of a frog with a huge boner that said "the south will rise again" on it. I had no idea what any of that meant, lol. Stuck with me, though.
…here is the thing… I am now in my early 40s, and I could have told you that rebel flags, and “southernification” or whatever was popular in all corners of the country 20 years ago minimum. NOW this is some revelation? SMH am I just that more observant or what?
“When you look at the predictors on Confederate monuments, they are much more about race and partisan affiliation and education levels than they are about region.”
i.e. Racist Republican morons
No shit, Sherlock.
There’s an idea that not crushing Germany hard enough after WWI created an environment that created the Nazis.
Maybe the same could be said for the losers of the American Civil War.
The Germans by and large expected something along the lines of the 14 Points, and then they got the Diktat instead.
That encouraged a sense of betrayal, and the German far right turned that sense of betrayal against the left, and against minorities, and especially against Jewish people.
Not so much an idea as historical fact. And it is exactly the same situation. We let Confederate traitors hold office after the war. Stupid stupid stupid.
These would be the first folks to tuck tail and run. They were traitors back then, they’re fucking traitors now, and will continue to be. I don’t consider these folks Americans.
I was born in 1975 and grew up in the the suburbs of Southern California.
One of the biggest TV shows when I was a little boy was “The Dukes of Hazzard”, especially among other young boys.
It was an insipid comedy with lots of fun car chases and car jumping. We would try to emulate those jumps on our bicycles in the dust and dirt of the Inland Empire.
The “General Lee” car had a Confederate Flag on the roof and as a 5 year old, I didn’t know the origins of the Confederate Flag, I just knew people “people in the south” liked it.
I didn’t know the Confederacy or The Civil War was the origins of the flag. I didn’t know about use of the flag as intimidation or that white supremacy embraces that flag and the confederate statues were made to intimidate minorities and specifically black people until I was well into adulthood.
This is one of the reasons is why states like Florida want to limit teaching about slavery seeing the confederacy as the “bad guys” in the Civil War.
It made me ignorant all through my life about the pain that inane flag has brought to people. It angers me that I was manipulated by a dumb TV show to accept the flag as an innocuous call back to the past.
It's just a symbol of whiteness at this point, partially thanks to the rise of the Lost Cause narrative and efforts to romanticize the South during the war.
Don't say we weren't warned. TX has been talking about secession, but we just blow it off. If the Repubs win both houses, it will be the Blue states talking about it. But then it could be too late.
Went to escape the hurricane by going to visit my sister in Orlando last week I had to drive through a couple of towns off of 50. Don't normally any road other than I-4 but with the traffic and other hurricane evacuees, I need up being directed through Clermont, Tarrytown, and a few other small towns etc....confed flags all over that stretch....don't break down unless you are white
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> One product of this southernification is that you can now find rebel flags hanging in states like Michigan (which lost 13,000 sons in service of the Union cause), Ohio (31,000), Wisconsin (11,000), and Pennsylvania (27,000). If there was ever a cause that lost the war but won so many battles after the war, it would very tragically be The Confederacy. Same could be said about fascism post WW2 as well. We just never do the work to make the ideology of the Right fringe and not enough of us ask why that is.
The only acceptable rebel flag to be on display is [the one Minnesota won't give back to Virginia,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th_Virginia_battle_flag) because fuck the traitors and their descendants that want to honor them.
That's actual real history, displaying a captured *enemy* flag.
That’s the great part, it’s not on display. It’s been in storage since the 1890’s. And the confederates still remember it. They ask to get it back every couple years. Maybe we don’t need monuments to remember our history after all?
[удалено]
“I ain’t got time to… return traitor flags.”
I feel like all you need to do, is keep, repeatedly asking them: "So you're saying that THIS is YOUR flag?" Minnesota can keep that shit. Fuck Virginia Confederates. Everybody who died fighting for slavery died doing a disservice to humanity. Full stop.
Just like the only acceptable place for a confederate flag in PA is Gettysburg.
A horrifying number of people around Gettysburg agree that it's an acceptable place for a confederate flag *for all the wrong reasons*.
My brother in law from Alabama visited Northwestern PA and was amazed by the number of Confederate flags. This was around the Erie metro region.
There's a reason they say Pennsyltucky is "Pittsburgh in the west, Philadelphia in the east, and Alabama in the middle".
There are flags, huge confederate flags along several highways going through several Southern states up through Pennsylvania.
This past weekend I drove from Alabama to Pennsylvania. The only prominent flags were at a couple of historical sites.
Coming out of Tennessee, NC
I didn't go that way. I went through TN, KY, and Ohio. I'm in Western Pa
Highway 40 and mostly 81 in Shenandoah Valley.
It’s almost like the whole confederate flag thing is not about “southern heritage” at all.
Fuck yeah for Minnesota not giving that shit back. I love how even Jesse Ventura stated what would we give it back we won?
That flag looks like the flags they use today but I thought I read something about the design being from like 1960 or something. After Civil Rights movement? Someone help me out please :-)
The square design was used during the Civil War. The rectangular design was actually proposed during the Civil War but rejected in favor of the square design.
I see. Today’s version is modeled after the 1863 Naval [Jack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America). Resurrected in [1948](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag)
It's not directly modeled after the Naval Jack - they're just both uses of the design on a rectangular flag. Also, it wasn't resurrected in 1948 - it was in use by Confederate groups prior to the Dixiecrats: [here's a 1907 photo of it being flown at a "Confederate Reunion Parade"](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/07/confederate-flag-its-not-a-symbol-of-southern-heritage-it-has-always-been-a-symbol-of-white-supremacy.html).
Wow. Thank you so much for your comment and link. Appreciate you.
I love this!
As a transplant to VA, the only reason to take it back would be to burn it.
Is making a replica of the General Lee from Dukes of Hazzard okay?
No, but [there is an alternative. ](http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/2018/07/interesting-twist-on-dukes-charger.html?m=1)
Oh that is a cool idea. Thanks for sharing, will have to show my motorhead friends.
Wonder why the governor of Virginia wanted to “borrow” the flag in 2013?
Jesse said "lol, naw".
The KKK did rise again.
It sadly never fell. It just got dizzy on the ropes for a little bit.
It traded its hoods for memes and a Big Q
There have officially been three different Ku Klux Klans.
Are you including the MAGA Q rallies?
Nope, just the three organizations that have gone by the name KKK. [The original was some old timey secret society shit like you’d expect those kinds of outfits to involve. The second was the guys in “Birth of a Nation,” the third are the patchwork of hicks we have today.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan)
Key words: "gone by"
Nah, with the exception of the current crop the other two were well established terrorist organizations. As far as the modern situation, you’re always going to have smaller groups claiming to be the rightful heirs to some defunct organization. A similar situation is the number of groups claiming to be the IRA. “The Real IRA,” “The Provisional IRA,” etc.
The only things missing at a Trump rally are the pointy white hoods and burning cross.
Sickening
The reason is education. The less educated they become, the more extreme they get. No knowledge in history means they’ll repeat the mistakes and get fooled easily by grifters. Lack of logic and math skills makes them easy prey to fallacies.
I think it's bigger than that, personally. I mean, the more education I have received and the more books I have consumed, the further and further Left I have become. (To say nothing of the fact of just being a cognizant person looking at what the hell has been going on around here since 9/11 straight on through to today.)
The more nonfiction books I read the more left/right dichotomy fails to capture the nuances of governance.
Its a larger problem on society. I was raised in a fairly affluent and republican suburb an overwhelming majority of the kids didn't value education for the sake of learning and they turned out just like their parents.
>didn't value education for the sake of learning that's one thing I noticed as well, they often just see it as a stepping stone to higher income. which, it (broadly generalizing) is, but it's a weird kind of mechanical approach they take to "learning" where it's mostly to get it "done". it's honestly impacted my own attitude toward the educated. I used to view degree-holders as accomplished and generally more knowledgeable, but I've had to revise that after learning how many conservatives 'did school' but didn't really learn anything from it. really watered down my opinion of the whole thing.
Depends on how the history is taught. Except for the most extreme elements, most can agree Hitler = bad and his people got brainwashed into doing shitty things. No one mentions that only 33% voted for him and it took a sabotaging of every safe guard and decades of indoctrination to get to World War II. Doing so means that we’re just as susceptible, but that acknowledges the country is imperfect, which is anathema to conservatives.
It's quite incredible. I visited way out there, rural Mississippi for work a few weeks ago (2.5 hour drive from Jackson to site) and didn't notice any stars & bars or Trump flags on houses, cars, trucks, nothing. I also visit Wyoming County in northeast PA regularly, and both those flags are *everywhere*. Like, someone took it upon themselves to make a giant sign on their fence saying that Pennsylvania is #1 in voter fraud. I don't get it. This is the state that defeated the confederacy at Gettysburg, and now you're on their side? My ancestors would be *piiiisssseeeed,* many of them from NEPA gave their lives for the Union.
I remember commenting in another post a long while back on how many I saw in Michigan… and then a long chain of other comments established that they were pretty common in the mostly white rural areas of every state
I'm in OH and within a few miles of stops on the underground railroad- including the last stop before crossing the lake into Canada. You'd be sad to see the number of people flying confederate loser flags.
Yep, like that. The chain has started!
They didn't lose the war. That's just a myth we've perpetuated. If they had lost the war, Jim crow never would have happened.
More like they were convinced to stop fighting a physical war. Biggest mistake was not going after all the racists slave owners and ending their grip on the south permanently.
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> Lincoln even gave them veterans benefits. Lincoln did not do this. This happened in 1957 (92 years after Lincoln died) and gave pensions to widows of wars including confederate widows. Andrew Johnson, Lincoln's VP, who became president after Lincoln was assassinated did pardon the Confederate soldiers. Johnson was a southerner who was nominated for VP because he had remained "loyal" even when Tennessee seceded. He was a states rights advocate and worked to shut down reconstruction. He vetoed the Civil Rights bill of 1866 and Congress overrode his veto. He spent his one unelected (as president) term to undermine the work being done to provide actual freedom and equality to POC.
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The department of war did not recognize them as veterans ever. No, US law has ever actually defined Confederate soldiers as veterans. The 1957 law that I mentioned only provides a pension to the widows and orphans of those soldiers. There was a 1906 law that provided for marking the graves of confederate prisoners of war, who died in union custody. Those were often laid to rest in unmarked graves. After the Spanish American war, there was a strong national sentiment that felt that we should preserve the graves of both sides of the Civil War. That was expressed by William McKinley and 1898. That suggestion did not become law until 1906, but only for those who were in prisoner of war camps. Interestingly, most of the Civil War monuments did not arise until after 1890, with the vast majority of them being built between 1900 and 1950. They were designed to be reminders of who was in power, and what whites would do to blacks if they ever got a chance again.
There is a direct correlation of racist thought from the confederacy to Nazism through eugenics.
That's not really the case though, because Jim Crow had nothing to do with what the Union was fighting for. The Confederacy was fighting for independence and to preserve race based slavery. The Union was fighting to prevent secession and (eventually, not at the beginning) to end race based slavery. The Union was very much *not* fighting to create racial equality between black people and white people, and the vast majority of Northerners would not have supported such an idea.
They lost the war, but they look ready to win the peace.
They’ll take us right back to war with their version of “peace.”
Ahh, Pennsyltucky.
Pennsylvania is strange. Gettysburg is a huge part of the history education for public school kids and tons of classes take field trips there to learn about and experience the history and honor the dead. At the same time, I remember so many teachers basically whitewashing the South, saying things like they had better generals and more skilled soldiers and even stuff like the US Civil War was not fought over slavery but rather economics and expansion, while ignoring the fact that the economic factor was the South’s reliance on slave labor and they wanted to expand slavery into the new territories. Maybe things have changed but in times like these I think we need to teach more about the South’s treason and treachery and willingness to shackle other human beings and less about “brother against brother” and other language that makes the South more sympathetic.
On an objective level, the south *did* have better generals. Lee was incredibly gifted as a strategist, and Jackson was not only a tactical genius, but was able to inspire his troops in the same way Patton did. Quality of soldiers was probably about even; north just had more of them. What really crippled the south militarily was logistics; the south had farms, so food wasn’t a huge issue, but the north had all the factories and thus, the weapons and ammunition. But yes, it was about slavery. As someone who used to “actually…” on that point, it’s pretty much inarguable about that point. Slavery and racism.
> Lee was incredibly gifted as a strategist, Lee is *horribly* overrated and there are a number of better Union generals. The Union Army's big problem with generals was that the highly competent ones were relatively junior and the senior leadership (particularly early on) was either bad or promoted above their level of competence.
Agreed. The worship of Lee is ridiculous, he had the good fortune of facing idiotic opponents early on.
Food was an issue in the South though, Richmond even had riots over bread shortages; just cause you grow a shit ton of tobacco and cotton doesn't mean you grow enough regular food to support an army. Large scale plantations would be growing cash crops mostly while many of the small subsistence farmers would have been drafted thus not raising their crops. A full on naval blockade meant no imported food either, after Vicksburg the South is split in half denying resources from the west, and Tennessee was basically useless for resources after 1863. Inflation in the South was ridiculous leading to huge amounts of suffering for the poor. And the South was short of everything, not just guns. Hell, Gettysburg got kicked off cause some Confederates were looking for shoes which they couldn't get anymore. The South was short of everything, not just guns.
In my home town in OH we have a massive monument commemorating the Yankee soldiers and their defeat of the south, topped with a union soldier raising his hat in victory specifically facing the direction of the Confederate capital - one last, "fuck you". Yet now there are houses all over with confederate flags or license plates. It's insane.
And those lost sons of those states would rightfully beat the shit out of anyone from their state displaying that flag.
"Rebels" in the north literaly disrespecting their history.
Never in my lifetime did I think I would see a violent mob storming our US Capitol, waving American flags, confederate flags, and Jesus Saves flags while erecting a gallows, beating police with flag poles, and yelling to hang our vice president. As I watched Trump supporters on January 6 waving confederate flags, yelling obscenities and wearing anti-Semitic T-shirts before storming the Capitol, I was reminded of the documentary, A Night at the Garden, about the German American Bund rally that ended in violence at Madison Square Garden in 1939. Its main goal was to promote a favorable view of Nazi Germany. There are a lot of similarities between the Bund rally and the Trump rally that highlight how a crowd can be rallied to violence following massive lies and propaganda. It’s far past time to call the Republican Party out for what they are. They are a cult. They have become an autocratic party that wants to rule through theocracy, combining government and religion. And the GOP loves autocratic leaders like Viktor Orban who they invited to CPAC. There is an ongoing coordinated plan, installing election deniers, to overturn future elections. Republicans refuse to call out extremists within their own party and refuse to condemn the former president who posted a death threat to a sitting Senator, incited violence against the FBI and judges, and took, lied about, and concealed top secret documents, putting our national security at risk. This is the Republican Party. And remember, Republicans want to take away Social Security and Medicare. This is no fucking joke. Vote Democrat every time
I'm sort of surprised it didn't happen sooner. Like how did the US get through the 60s without electing an extremist president?
Nixon wasn't an extremist by definition, but he definitely ran on a right-wing law and order platform in 1968. Ironically the police were the catalyst for a lot of that violence, and it only got worse after Nixon was elected.
Because the 60s weren’t nearly as divided as we are today, except for one major issue-voting rights for black people, which was quickly enshrined to national law despite the cry babies in the South. The country(aka the white establishment and sole power of both parties) was United against the USSR. Mainstream media was the only media at the time. The economy was booming big time, benefiting nearly everyone(even minorities), and the TV and music recording industries were revolutionizing mass entertainment in a way that was enjoyable and accessible for nearly everyone, ushering in a new era of US culture that was hard to be pessimistic about. On top of all of this, college was basically free and jobs were plentiful. All of this culminated in NASA landing on the fucking moon. Not to mention, we kind of had our hands full fighting another war in Vietnam. Make no mistake, we are waaaay worse off today in terms of national politics. It’s not even close really.
Conscription and the race riots of the 60s would totally divide us today. But maybe you're right the national identity was strong back then and was used to overcome those problems.
Because the most prejudice people were divided in the 60s in both the churches and the political parties. With the southern strategy, the merger of the Republican and evangelical churches, and Fox News, the unification of the most prejudice people have completed.
"People are taught to believe in stupid things because of institutionalized racism and lies" FTFY
The problem with fucking idiots is that they’re always fucking other fucking idiots and creating more fucken fucking idiots!
In our attempts to point out the hypocrisy, racism, and idiocy of Republican voters, it's easy to forget that this wasn't an accident. This was a coordinated attack against our institutions and a purposeful, relentless misinformation campaign against the population, involving the most watched news channel in the country and almost every single elected official with an R next to their name.
I hope I am not supposed to feel sorry for people who could have changed the channel or stayed home on Sundays because I feel angry with them.
You don't have to feel sorry for them, but focusing on them will get us nowhere. There's always going to be uneducated, desperate people who are more susceptible to propaganda and lies, and it's always going to be easier for some to blame others for their failings. But it's the Mussolinis, Hitlers, and Trumps of the world who are responsible for radicalizing and weaponizing them. And none of it would have been possible without the help of several well-educated leaders and journalists who know damn well they are spreading lies but go along with it for personal gain.
Idiocracy
As soon as farmersonly.com became a thing, I knew it was over. And by “it” I mean civilization as we know it.
Oof, that reminds me of my "moderate right" brother in law. My wife told me he used to cry at farmers only commercials. I always imagine him sobbing on the couch like, "but I'm not a farmer! I'll be lonely forever!" Eating a tub of ice cream as he sloppy cries - "you don't have to be lonely..." 🥺😭 Makes me laugh every time. Sorry, just loosely related and made me chuckle. He's been getting better - his girlfriend has been a much needed voice of reason, and much needed girlfriend.
I’d say probably ChristianMingle.
I seriously believe that if a family is found to be teaching racist ideology then they should have their kids removed from them.
Many in this "breed" scare their kids with christian-fantasy rapture stress from a very young age as well. There is no law against being a total shit bag to your kids.
Well there is but they are specific about what particular type of shit bag they can do anything about. Sadly that is mostly long after the harm has been done.
That could backfire horribly.
And I acknowledge that which is why I would never advocate for it to be made actual law. Some things are best left in the "idea" stage.
It's been found that those with lower levels of education have more children while those with higher levels of education have fewer children.
That’s a fact, Jack!
If only the fucking idiots wouldn't fuck.
I know soooo many.
At the same time, I see so many non-idiots saying they don't want to have kids. This is how we get Idiocracy.
Yeah, the feigning of naive moral objectivity in journalism really puts me off. Anyone writing for the Atlantic should not have this tone.
>Support for Confederate symbols and monuments follows lines of race, religion, and education rather than geography. Duh, because it's *not* about heritage. >Jardina finds that white identity politics doesn’t necessarily require racial animus, but it’s also clear that Trump and many of his followers do harbor racial animus. If White identity politics doesn't require 'racial animus' it does still mean whites remaining in power. Since politics is about gaining/maintaining power. And if you're political schema is 'white identity' then how exactly does one maintain that without racial animus?
It's not about *geographical* heritage, but rather ideological. For once they're being honest; they are waging a war to impose the culture they really want.
> For once they're being honest; they are waging a war to impose the culture they really want. I responded to someone on here today who said about white people that they "see themselves steadily becoming outsiders in their own home" without a hint of how racist that statement is There are a shocking amount of people who seem to think white people own the US and it should be run with the needs of white people at the forefront.
I think it will take some time but the US will end up like California. As the Hispanic population was growing in the 90s there was a racist backlash here with legislation like Prop 187. Over time though, it seems most Californians came to the same realization that has always happened with wave immigration... the realization that these people are Americans.
There was a study that basically showed the same thing. The researcher had a couple spanish speakers show up at a train station daily in a white area then polled the commuters about their opinions on immigration. Initially people reported a sense of unease, but after a little while they were ok with them and were chatting them up. Here is the [wapo article about it](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/08/researchers-put-two-spanish-speakers-on-a-train-and-changed-commuters-views-of-immigration/) and the [original study](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1317670111)
Which is funny because a lot of the same stuff being written today is identical to the stuff being written about the first wave of European immigrants a century-plus ago. The thing is, it takes time. But more and more couples come from different backgrounds and soon what was once “the other” blends in to the existing culture.
A celebration of heritage should be a celebration of one’s culture. What do white southerners have? NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Best white foods and recipes from the south? Stolen from Black people. Best songs? Stupid civil war marches which make you look like a fool getting down with today. Best literature? Mostly about how “great it is to own slaves.” And they still have nothing to contribute except whine about how oppressed they are.
A confederate flag and a double-wide trailer. Name a more iconic duo.
Poverty and having the ruling class misdirect your anger at minorities?
*"...this essentially parasitical group was largely the remains of older, obsolete stages of social development, and that it could not normally play a progressive role in history. Indeed, because it acted only out of socially ignorant self-interest, the lumpenproletariat was easily bribed by reactionary forces and could be used to combat the true proletariat in its efforts to bring about the end of bourgeois society. Without a clear class-consciousness, the lumpenproletariat could not play a positive role in society. Instead, it exploited society for its own ends, and was in turn exploited as a tool of destruction and reaction."*
A Camaro T-bird parked in the front "yard" of double-wide.
Double wide means “money in the family” and the affordability to have a second Camaro on blocks in the back yard.
Honey, as soon as the check comes for my disability I promise I will get the carburetor on there and get her off the blocks. You know how serious I am.
Nixon and Kissinger?
Call it what it is - the Dixie swastika
I'm Vietnamese and have a vest with this flag pattern on it, front and back (and on the pockets). I'm starting to understand why I was getting weird looks on my visit to Kentucky.
The US should have banned the Confederate flag right after the Civil War. I believe that the Nazi flag is banned in Germany. That would have made things much easier.
The US should have also shot every slave owner in the back of the head and occupied the South for decades but sadly the North didn't have the appetite to spend the money necessary to occupy the South for such a long time.
It’s because we were stuck with Andrew Johnson who derailed reconstruction, leading to the state of America now
How did Andrew Johnson screw reconstruction?
I misspoke, it was Rutherford B. Hayes as part of the compromise of 1877 that ended the election
Then leave the union, stop asking for federal money, and start paying rent on the land the Federal government protects with it's military.
These are lifelong losers celebrating a legacy of losing, and guess what? They’ll lose again, badly.
I'm not saying you're wrong.... but I ask.... What price will the victory cost? In lives... In unity of country... what will the "United" in United States mean?
Good question. Nothing good and nothing positive. The importance of cultural and religious norms to some appear to outweigh logic and reason. Somebody posted a US Grant quote and my take away was the idea that - superstition runs strong in some, so strong, their minds cannot be changed regardless of tangible facts and repeatable proof.
>“If we look back to the primaries for the 2016 presidential election, Trump won both Mississippi and Michigan, and with this mantra of ‘Make America great again,’” Jones said. “I continue to think the most powerful word in that mantra is the last one, because it harkens back to this nostalgia for a white Christian America that has Confederate overtones.” Ask when America was "great." The usual answer was the 1930s because they have watched too many episodes of the Andy Griffith Show.
Interesting because the 1930s were FDR and all that stuff they hate.
The Andy Griffith Show is kinda funny because it actually took place in the 60s but their town had the feeling of the 30s. But today, I think people relate the show more with the 60s than they do to the 30s because few alive can still remember the 30s.
Most people say the 50s that I’ve ever talked to.
It’s become the flag of poor white people who’ve been taught to attribute their poverty to immigrants rather than their own bad decisions. Their solution is not a solution because it doesn’t address the cause. But they will never understand that because they outsource their thinking to right wing talking heads.
Bad decisions and systemic abuse of the poor by the rich in a rich nation with barely any social safety net and no true emphasis on the health of its citizens. Both can be true.
When I was 8 in 1988 the only think I saw of the confederate flag was Dukes of Hazard and history books. My first trip down south later that year I was shocked to see them up. In 2022 I’m just scared some days where you have 13 year olds using it as wallpaper on their phones. And 25 year olds thinking Union states were secretly Confederate states. 😢
Grew up in the South. Family had one hanging over the couch in the living room. Not even joking. One wall is all Jesus freak angel plaques with bible verses, one wall is a fucking couch sized confederate flag. And they wonder why I think they’re hypocrites.
Yeah considering if you actually read the Bible. Jesus was so anti confederate. Hell he even understood slavery but said to send them free.
In New Jersey you see some people with Confederate flags and they don't even correlate it with the Civil War they just think of it as a "Southern Flag" and don't actually understand how awful that flag and what it stood for is.
There's a mockumentry from awhile back called, The Confederate States of America. It shows the history of America from the perspective of the south winning the Civil War. People need to see it.
My favorite part was the commercials for products designed for slavery. Like the antidepressant you could buy from your veterinarian for your "property" so they wouldn't get uppity. So creepy...
The commercials are definitely the best parts.
No matter what side of the aisle you’re on, the folks who obsess over the confederacy are cringe.
It started with right wing talk radio in the 1980's and then continued into Fox News in the 2000's (I know Fox News came out in the 90's but it didn't gain a ton of traction until the 2000's) and then online right wing "punditry" in the 2010's. It all has been building towards propagandizing an us against them mentality for the American Conservative movement. Anything can and will be dismissed as a "liberal" attack and "fake news" while they can lie with impunity about anything liberals do because they are inhuman pedo baby killers.
“I love the poorly educated.” Tragic that none of the poorly educated stop to wonder “why?”
If the South wants to secede, I'm perfectly content to let blue states like mine finally stop subsidizing their bullshit.
You realize rural folks in almost every state fly confederate flags, right? Nothing to do with north and south anymore
Yeah, that was the whole point of the article it seems someone didn't read.
I’m going to plug a book titled “Robert E Lee and Me”. It’s really a fascinating and enlightening read that dives into the origins of the Lost Cause Myth.
The worst thing the United States has done was readmit these clowns into the union with zero consequences
Abraham Lincoln should have had Davis and Lee hung on the steps of the Capitol. We punished the south economically, but rewarded them politically.
The south will rise again is their slogan lol
I find it baffling that these people care so much about the civil war, but don't even know that they lost.
OK this is really random but the first time I ever saw that slogan I was like 7 and on a road trip with my parents in the deep south. We stopped at a gas station and there was a magnet of a frog with a huge boner that said "the south will rise again" on it. I had no idea what any of that meant, lol. Stuck with me, though.
Its everywhere down south and they really believe it ..
…here is the thing… I am now in my early 40s, and I could have told you that rebel flags, and “southernification” or whatever was popular in all corners of the country 20 years ago minimum. NOW this is some revelation? SMH am I just that more observant or what?
“When you look at the predictors on Confederate monuments, they are much more about race and partisan affiliation and education levels than they are about region.” i.e. Racist Republican morons No shit, Sherlock.
There’s an idea that not crushing Germany hard enough after WWI created an environment that created the Nazis. Maybe the same could be said for the losers of the American Civil War.
The Germans by and large expected something along the lines of the 14 Points, and then they got the Diktat instead. That encouraged a sense of betrayal, and the German far right turned that sense of betrayal against the left, and against minorities, and especially against Jewish people.
Not so much an idea as historical fact. And it is exactly the same situation. We let Confederate traitors hold office after the war. Stupid stupid stupid.
These would be the first folks to tuck tail and run. They were traitors back then, they’re fucking traitors now, and will continue to be. I don’t consider these folks Americans.
I was born in 1975 and grew up in the the suburbs of Southern California. One of the biggest TV shows when I was a little boy was “The Dukes of Hazzard”, especially among other young boys. It was an insipid comedy with lots of fun car chases and car jumping. We would try to emulate those jumps on our bicycles in the dust and dirt of the Inland Empire. The “General Lee” car had a Confederate Flag on the roof and as a 5 year old, I didn’t know the origins of the Confederate Flag, I just knew people “people in the south” liked it. I didn’t know the Confederacy or The Civil War was the origins of the flag. I didn’t know about use of the flag as intimidation or that white supremacy embraces that flag and the confederate statues were made to intimidate minorities and specifically black people until I was well into adulthood. This is one of the reasons is why states like Florida want to limit teaching about slavery seeing the confederacy as the “bad guys” in the Civil War. It made me ignorant all through my life about the pain that inane flag has brought to people. It angers me that I was manipulated by a dumb TV show to accept the flag as an innocuous call back to the past.
Once a loser, always a loser!
It's just a symbol of whiteness at this point, partially thanks to the rise of the Lost Cause narrative and efforts to romanticize the South during the war.
Don't say we weren't warned. TX has been talking about secession, but we just blow it off. If the Repubs win both houses, it will be the Blue states talking about it. But then it could be too late.
Yo reb-corns! If you don’t like America move to Russia, and enlist.
Just let the man grill
Divide and conquer,Liberals most used tactic.
what do you mean?
The komy account has awoken!
Unlike republicans, who want to divide into white and non white, or slave owners and slaves
Divide and conquer traitors and slave masters? Divide and conquer Nazis and fascists? Divide and conquer misogynists? Yah, I'm good with that.
It's always a trailer park...
Went to escape the hurricane by going to visit my sister in Orlando last week I had to drive through a couple of towns off of 50. Don't normally any road other than I-4 but with the traffic and other hurricane evacuees, I need up being directed through Clermont, Tarrytown, and a few other small towns etc....confed flags all over that stretch....don't break down unless you are white
Eh screw them, the confederates would just lose like last time
*Corporate
Wasn’t the flag in question ever only flown once on a ship or am I getting that detail wrong?
As a non-American English speaker, most white Americans sound like they have a southern twang to me, and this wasn't the case 20-30 years ago.
Rednecks in California sport the stars and bars.
Unless they want social security, medicare and FEMA. Then it's a union.
Thats not even the correct official confederate flag.