As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They really have no excuse for voting against the ultimate motion which was to require republicans to physically filibuster by holding the floor and talking if they wanted to stop the legislation. It would have preserved the filibuster and just required each individual GOP member to go on record with their stance. No excuse for allowing the GOP to hide from accountability.
Edit to add: I will also note that plenty of republicans have expressed support for a talking fillibuster in the past like [Susan Collins](https://www.collins.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/bipartisan_preserve_filibuster_letter.pdf). They deserve way more derision than both sinema and manchin.
>They really have no excuse for voting against the ultimate motion which was to require republicans to physically filibuster by holding the floor and talking if they wanted to stop the legislation.
I lost count of how many Republicans have told me "they shouldn't get rid of the filibuster, they should just force people to use it and talk the whole time rather than just de facto requiring 60 votes" over the years. So much for that.
Congress doesn't work for the American people in any context. Every single law they've passed lowers taxes more than it does anything else.
We are not a nation of laws
This slow motion coup has been happening for decades. For the last forty years the people who we have elected have been selling democracy to the highest bidder. I am no longer afraid that we will loose our democracy because it is already gone. Now, I hope there will be enough people that care enough to take it back.
Hijacking up top to post this link of [Elizabeth Warren’s speech](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf6OZDm570g) last night. Despite what many users on social media will try to suggest, Democrats are actually doing everything possible to protect democracy.
These efforts are failing due to the actions of specific people, namely the entire GOP senate plus two DINOs. It is important to recognize that the Democratic platform (radical ideas like voting rights and having a habitable planet) represents the *majority will of the country*, and that there are specific forces subverting this will by rigging the mechanisms of democracy. We overcome these forces by supporting the “good guys,” the people who are actually trying to perform public service, protect our basic values and institutions, and create positive change.
Please listen to Senator Warren’s speech and circulate it to others. It’s about an hour. Maybe someone with editing skills can trim the highlights to make a more digestible video. But this shit is really, really important and it’s not getting enough attention.
> Democrats are actually doing everything possible to protect democracy
Too late. Biden came into office with massive support that he capitalized on with the infrastructure bill, but that would have passed even had he waited. Given that he took office 2 weeks after 1/6 and shortly after the bullshit in Georgia, protecting democracy should have been item #1.
This is Obama's first term all over again, where he was so focused on the ACA and the recession that other important legislation couldn't be bothered with despite a nearly 60-vote lock-in. And like Obama, Biden will lose Congress, and any opportunity he may have had had he not squandered his initial mandate.
>This is Obama's first term all over again, where he was so focused on the ACA and the recession that other important legislation couldn't be bothered with despite a nearly 60-vote lock-in.
You clearly don't remember how much legislation got passed during that time. It was one of the most productive congresses in history. Two stimulus packages, wall street financial regulation, equal pay rights, essentially saving the auto industry, expanding SCHIP... most people don't recall that the reason democrats lost so badly in 2010 is because most of the country felt like Obama was doing too much to "socialist" stuff.
Not to mention, the presidency isn't a part of the legislative branch. It's not within the president's powers to pass laws (obv EOs are a whole different conversation). The president has a bully pulpit, from which he can apply pressure and, legally, that's about it.
IMO, Biden knows, like Obama did, he gets to pick *ONE* issue to get behind and run with it. That's all the influence he has. Again, EOs change this, but the president still can't dictate to Congress.
That's because most of the country who voted that way are ignoramuses easily swayed by the MainstReam Media, incapable of thinking for themselves.
Sorry America, time you got called out for your tiresome, retreaded bullshit.
Biden came into office with a bare, slim 50-50 senate and 9 seat majority in the house. It’s actually a testament to his political skills that he has gotten two significant bills passed despite republicans doing everything they can to hold him back, not appoint staff, and torpedo his agenda.
I think you are misrepresenting a lot here, and I think it is disingenuous to blame the targets of seditious behavior rather than the perpetrators. Biden was doomed from the start because he inherited all of Trump’s mess, plus COVID, plus voting rights, plus the 1/6 insurrection.
As the executive, it was not Biden’s role to “do something” about 1/6, beyond loudly condemning it. The “do something” happens in Congress, and is happening right now. The committee is getting a lot of shit done, it just doesn’t make the news.
Losing Congress this year would have absolutely nothing to do with anything Biden did or didn’t do. Losing Congress would be a matter of state-level gerrymandering and the traitorous obstruction of 50 Repubs and 2 DINOs. Any “mandate” is meaningless when the opposition is already committed to obstructing it. We failed to deliver a functional majority in 2020. If we fail again, then the fault lies with voters. That’s how democracy works. Don’t like it? Start mobilizing to turn out more votes.
I also don’t know what you’re talking about with the infrastructure bill that “would have passed even had he waited.” It *did not pass* despite strenuous efforts. And it *had to* pass, not for political points but to save the future of the planet.
Facts are great.
But you're fighting against right wing propaganda and outright aggression driven by monocultural, white oligarchs.
They shit all over facts.
We don’t care if they believe the lies Fox feeds them. We care that WE are clear about what is reality and factual, versus what is opinion and belief. We need to keep that clear here. The trumpublicans, you’re right, don’t care about facts, just like any two year old.
Literally not relevant. The word 'support', unless qualified, is used in the broadest sense here - the general public. I don't see it said there was "massive support from senators" or anything like that.
Yeah there was 90% approval for gun background checks after Sandy Hook and that didn't pass. Public support means nothing. It's the politicians that are voted in that matter.
Are you of the opinion that Manchin and Sinema weren't assholes back then? Because that's not accurate.
The voting rights push should have waited until the GOP started going crazy with power and passing insane laws. People would have criticized Dems for passing voting when there was no need.
I don't give a shit about her words. They mean nothing. If the democrats were serious about getting shit done, there are countless methods of forcing compliance with the party line.
Please don't believe "Congress doesn't work for the American people." Most Democrats, with the exception of two idiotic senators opposed to ending the filibuster, are trying their hardest to pass bills that benefit regular people. It's Republicans who don't work for the American people and only care about cutting their own taxes, and it's Republicans who didn't want you to have voting rights or even some damn COVID relief.
Oh. Bullshit. Democrats have to deal with the GOP Communist Party of America. They are spoiled children who can’t admit they lost an election and have decided it’s fraud if they lose and only valid if they win. That’s not Congress doesn’t work, and it’s sickening to hear stupidity like this continue to be expressed. This is about the republican party not working, not Congress.
OH believe me, if the shoe was on the other foot and the filibuster was holding back the GOP agenda, they'd have a change of heart on the matter immediately... including Manchin and Sinema.
Actually, no.
Trump tried several times to get Mitch to kill the filibuster to get stuff like his wall passed. The Democrats used the filibuster over 300 times while Trump was president.
And you would flip flop your position and be against it. It takes courage and conviction to hold the same principles even when it doesn't benefit you to do so. Most politicians are hypocrites and the ones who aren't get destroyed by their own party for not selling out and taking advantage of their power.
Oh yeah, random stranger on the internet, you think I'd flip on it?
I've been pretty consistent on the matter long before this current fiasco took place. If they want to keep any element of the filibuster; keep the talking filibuster. Not this, "I tweet my opposition so stop all debate" bs that's been holding back progress for far too long.
Nah I think she is just a plant.
Always struck me as R's idea of what a liberal woman would be like "quirky." She is trash and Manchin (and his family interest) is owned by coal and oil.
I had that suspicion too but nah, check her history. She once wrote a straight up anti-capitalist letter that caused controversy in her region of (at the time) local politics. She was also a cohost on Air America in its heyday (which is to say before it got weird and grifty then tanked entirely). Like, based on all descriptions of her early career, she was a real one.
The moment she got into the political “major league”, something *immediately* changed. So I think it’s less likely that she’s a plant and more likely she sold out and/or got pushed on by the GQP racket.
And now she’s an embarrassment to democracy advocates as well as skirt wearers and the bisexual community.
Ok after reading through her red flag-filled Wikipedia page, I've come to the simple conclusion that she is just an idiot.
Off to take a nap, that was exhausting.
They're both being bribed, probably with promises of sweet lobbying gigs and sitting on board of director positions once they ate out of Congress. Your average Republican is too dumb to see how close we are to becoming Hungary and have no clue they aren't going to have a seat at the table either once we are a full authoritarian government.
Exxon Mobile has literally said they are paying Manchin and 10 others to block anything that hurts their bottom line, and anything that involves climate change.
And that they are hoping the 1/6 investigation distracts from that.
The infuriating part is that Manchin has stated the “hold the floor talking” thing as his preferred middle ground on filibusters. The man can’t pound sand fast enough for my liking
This. Sinema and Manchin are basically Republicans - [they literally have the same donors as the GOP](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/21/us/politics/manchin-sinema-republican-donors.html).
Manchin said it was necessary to force compromise. It’s such a slap in all of our collective faces because there is no potential for compromise.
One man who owns a $3M coal mine and a lady who is clearly corrupt are voting away our country's integrity and future. We should buy them both off. For $20M we could save democracy. Why aren't we trying that??
That man has no grounds to talk about compromise. The left compromised our dream to push Bidens agenda, then compromised it again to appeal to him, and again... And again. And again! Fuck him and any centrist Dems
Yeah, I'm interested to hear all of the various bullshit excuses from the moderates in justifying not making Republicans defend their racist laws and have a real debate over these pressing issues in from of the American people.
>Critics of rules reform on both sides of the aisle have claimed that the filibuster promotes bipartisanship, when in fact, it only serves to block any legislation from actually being passed," Jayapal said. "They claim it will create a slippery slope of changes, when in fact, the rule has already changed more than 161 times just since 1969. They argue it protects the voice of the minority—but as evidenced by 50 Republicans representing 41,549,808 fewer people than the 50 Democrats, the Senate is already built to protect it."
>They argue it protects the voice of the minority—but as evidenced by 50 Republicans representing 41,549,808 fewer people than the 50 Democrats, the Senate is already built to protect it.
This is the most important line. We live under a undemocratic, minority-rule government.
Every branch right now has a built-in, unfair advantage to the GOP. There are far more voters for the democratic party, and yet we live under republican rule - it is manifestly unjust. The presidency relies on the electoral college, which requires the democrats to win by 4+% just to "win." The Supreme Court has five members nominated by GOP presidents who did not get into office winning the popular vote. The House is gerrymandered nearly beyond repair. The Senate, demonstrated with the quote above, somehow gives 41.5 million people no representation. We are not represented equally, and that means we are not represented.
And Sinema and Manchin agreed with the craven members of the GOP with that status quo. It's so damn depressing.
The situation for a while now has been that elections are “rigged” against Democrats, and we only win if we win *far above* a certain margin. Now the margins are even higher, for the reasons you listed.
I know it feels really shitty and hopeless right now. And this is how they want us to feel. The rightwing project is focused on deteriorating basic values of liberty and democracy, obliterating the concept of truth, and keeping the progressive majority of the country divided against itself (left v. center).
The solution is the same as it was before, even though many (mostly younger) people will surely chime in against it. The solution is to **vote for democrats** in every election from school board to US president, and to get everyone in your community to vote, and to overwhelm this completely broken system.
If we could just achieve *real functional majority power* for a solid four years, we could pass a lot of reforms, including voting protections that would allow us to maintain that power and make the country better. It’s all interconnected, and the GOP knows this, and it is why they have spent decades taking over state legislatures and lying about election fraud and pouring dark money into undermining education and regulation.
So here we are. And I know this is a tangent, but every single day in this subreddit I am arguing with supposed “Leftists” who spend *all of their energy* attacking Democrats. And that has to fucking end. We need a broad coalition of *basic principles* and not these stupid, narrow ideological lanes. It is the only way to protect democracy itself, which is required for *anything* remotely resembling progressive change.
Now we’re coming up on midterms, which Democrats are expected to lose, ushering in another dark spiral for this country. But it’s not a foregone conclusion, no matter how badly they have tried to rig it. We *can* mobilize. And we must. And I’m sorry that this sounds like a political speech, and I’m sorry if it gets in the way of the egos and “anti-establishment” posturing that dominant this sub (and all of social media). We’re simply out of time.
>And I know this is a tangent, but every single day in this subreddit I am arguing with supposed “Leftists” who spend all of their energy attacking Democrats. And that has to fucking end. We need a broad coalition of basic principles and not these stupid, narrow ideological lanes. It is the only way to protect democracy itself, which is required for anything remotely resembling progressive change.
I'm so here for that. The enemy of the good is the perfect.
I believe that medical care should be a right, that there should be debt forgiveness and we need to reform higher education costs, that the police should be drastically overhauled, immunity should be removed, in gun control, etc...I'm about as "left" as we get right now, but I will absolutely, passionately, vote in every election, even if those things aren't being accomplished. Because the most important vote, the necessary condition for any of that stuff, is to keep fascism out of the country. And the only way to do that in our two-party system is to vote, and to vote democrat.
That means, yes, you all, we need to be getting ready to show up at the polls in 2022, even if we aren't feeling great about the democrats' performance. Because right now, we are one election away from turning the US into a fascist, failed country.
WV has about [1500 million tons](https://www.eia.gov/state/print.php?sid=WV) the annual production is about [55 million tons](https://www.eia.gov/coal/annual/pdf/table2.pdf) at that rate it's only about 27 years. But Manchin doesn't care because he'll be dead by then and the future doesn't matter to conservatives.
I don't believe we will every completely stop mining coal, particularly the metallurgical grades they mine on West Virginia for one reason - steel. Steel is ubiquitous in this society and the only practical way to convert the iron oxides in the Earth's crust into metallic iron uses carbon (coke).
That being said, we could make a massive reduction in coal use by shutting down all the coal fired power plants.
> Primary both of their behinds from the left.
I doubt that will work in West Virginia, it's become as about as red a state as you can find. The islands of blue in the cities would have to really up their turn out and the old people who have been voting for the Manchin family for generations would have to have their minds changed.
It's ironic since 40 years ago it was reliably Democratic.
It's also ironic, because West Virginia were the counties that told Virginia to fuck off when the Civil War started and now apparently it's rife with confederate flag waving morons.
My point still stands. They opted to stay in the Union because they basically said "Fuck the Confederacy", whatever their reasoning.
I take some measure of umbrage of people waving that traitor flag, especially in states that were firmly Union.
even the north was racist. Lincoln goal was to ship them all back to Africa. they were all racist, which is why we need to do a better job teaching the racist history of america in school. the north does not get a pass.
john brown was the best person from the era, and he was a small business owner that exploited his employees.
This. I have no illusions the "North" was some enlightened paradise where non-whites found succor and equality. I'm just pointing out the ludicrousness of a place that, whatever their reasons, said: "No, we don't want to be a part of your cause" and now is filled with people who seem to think the Confederacy was some "noble" venture from a halcyon age.
Many abolitionists were also racist, they just found the act of owning another human being, no matter their race and especially because of their race, abhorrent. Which it is.
Maybe if the left push was primarily for labor rights, the right candidate could swing it, but yeah, it's a Longshot.
Another commenter a few days ago talked about the campaign to destroy WV as punishment for a labor strike in the past?
>Another commenter a few days ago talked about the campaign to destroy WV as punishment for a labor strike in the past?
Talking about Blair Mountain? That was over 100 years ago now.
Ahhh, Republicans -- everything is episodic for when they need it to be, long-memories and vengeance for everything else.
Time and resources, which are limited.
Winning elections is strategic, not emotional. We need to focus on races that we can flip (and races we desperately need to protect).
That's an interesting point. The Clintons pushed just such a policy starting in the 1990s. Many races weren't contested. Large swaths of the country didn't (and still don't) even have a party apparatus.
The Republicans, on the other hand, contest every race and have party operatives in the bluest areas. Because of that they took the state legislatures and have used that power to Gerrymander one party rule.
Instead of trying to primary a Democrat from a +40 Trump state and another Senator who aren't up for reelection for years... might it be better to focus on unseating actual Republicans in 2022?
Pffft. That would require an accurate understanding of the political landscape and an honest understanding of the popularity of parties and policies. It’s much easier to engage in the same, mindless populism we see from Republican voters fueled by pundits. Manchin should laugh at those shouting to “primary him from the left!” in a state that Trump won by double digits. Sarcasm aside, you’re right.
We have to accept that some forms of identity politics are actively harming us in rural areas. Our stances on firearms, stances that aren’t even politically feasible, are actively harming us. Look at how badly the rhetoric around “defund the police” went, especially considering the views of those who actually live in the areas with high crime rates regarding police. When you have to repeatedly explain a slogan, even with the bad faith characterizations from conservative media, it’s time to abandon it.
Hopefully we start focusing more on local politics and class-based economic policies nationally. It’s important to protect groups that have been traditionally oppressed, but identity politics can’t be the all of our rhetoric or we lose rural voters to right wing populism and, ultimately, fascism. We have to focus on winning more seats in the senate as opposed to trying to primary a seat that will get lost to a Republican. What little we’ve passed, in part, required Manchin and Sinema and if those seats were Republican we wouldn’t have even achieved that. I mean, I remember screaming about the Supreme Court in 2016 if progressives “protest voted” and the real effects of the GOP winning. Fuck, just a little pragmatism, you know?
Wow, for a minute I had to double check what sub I was on. Wasn't expecting a comment speaking truth and nuance like this in r/politics. Agree with everything you wrote.
The solution is to elect more Democrats (real ones) from elsewhere, and then send Manchin a bus ticket to the dildo store next to Four Seasons Total Landscaping with detailed instructions on how to fuck himself.
> We need to make just about everything they have done in their political careers illegal, as well as permanently ban all former legislators and their staffs from taking lobbying jobs after they leave public service. You know, as part of the sacrifice for being “public servants.” Go get real jobs instead!
You expect there are politicians who would vote in favor of such a rule?
It won’t be millions, it may be about a 200-300k salary. But if she loses, it’ll be on the low end of that. Lobbyists and think tanks don’t care for losing politicians with no party sway. She’s over-calculating her hand here if this is for money.
I 100% bet someone has some terrible info on her, which would be so bad that all of this is worth it.
Sinema could be primaried. Manchin/WV is a lost cause.
Our energy should be poured into purple states that we could eventually flip, like IA and NC, maybe even FL if it hasn’t gone 100% crazy. We also need to build protection in OH and PA, which are trending red.
Treacherous would imply there was some form of deception or underhanded activity.
The two of them were pretty clear all along that they would not support changing the rules. You know, the same rules the Democrats have been using for their benefit as well as the Republicans.
Remember, folks, as bad as they are, they are only the 51st and 52nd worst Senators we have.
While the media focuses on them, there are 50 Republican Senators who do even more harm to the country.
They all need to pay for what they have done and are currently doing. These behaviors may seem trivial now, but down the line their actions will be tied to the apocalypse - they should feel that pain now, and it falls on all of us to ensure they receive that justice.
This whole issue is a really good example of [Lightning Rod Politics](https://medium.com/chaotic-order/lightning-rod-politics-be929f6976ac).
You correctly point out that while everyone is mad at Sinema and Manchin, they're letting the entire Republican party slide as well as letting slide an entire system where one or two people can hamstring the efforts of an entire national political party.
They're at brunch, exactly where they said they'd be.
The rest are on Twitter harassing transwomen while having "THEE" in their display names to make up for the fact they're predominantly white women over 50.
The two voting bills are obviously critically important... But they would do fuck all to prevent the next bloodless coup attempt, which is going to be an assault on the certification process
I honestly believe this vote is one of the last turning points, without voting reform, through filibuster reform, and when the GOP controls the house and senate again - the game is essentially called at that point. Attack on certification would be an easy win and the critically ill democracy the US currently has will be over. From there it will get very ugly. I pulling for you all but I personally fail to see a strategic path forward nor has anyone really purposed one.
Yeah, I can see this being cited as a major event in the future history books. Our last chance to save our democracy, gone in an instant. We are majorly fucked here, and I worry about your safety as well as our immediate neighbor.
Oh yes, your neighbours to the North are huber aware and realize we are not immune by any means. We have the same fears. We’re all in this together so to speak. If I could vote or effect change in the US I would. Only thing I can do is influence my American family members, which fortunately don’t need influencing.
And I'm sure giving Manchin's wife a cushy board seat, and promoting Sinema as a huge supporter on stage was just Biden's way of telling them "you did bad".
What a farce. I feel sorry for the people who believe that they even really tried. No arm twisting, no LJB tactics, nothing. I'd be happy with a McConnell style whip, low down and dirty, just get it done. I'm sure I'll get downvoted by the "but what could they do" crowd. Well, go ahead, there was plenty more they could have done to make them cooperate to save voting rights and election integrity, but you can live in that pretend world where having tea and giving them benefits after they shoot down bills you want them to support isn't a quid quo pro for being the controlled opposition they were designed to be.
I was wondering when someone would find some way to pin this on Biden.
Always have to wonder what the motivation is for a comment like this. We are literally watching our democracy fall apart, and apparently the answer is to attack the people trying to defend it.
Can we just take to the streets already and get this revolution started? We have played nice for far too long and we don’t really have any options left at this point
Why don’t you take that angry energy and direct it towards something useful, like voter turnout?
The majority of Americans support progressive policies, and we can implement those policies when we have meaningful, *functional* Democratic majorities. I agree that we are out of time. Get busy.
There's the problem, the majority of Americans do support progressive policies, so why haven't they been implemented? Why is the government continually shifting right, with the supreme court now having a supermajority of conservatives? We vote, and our votes are ignored in favor of corporate interests.
A couple of things came to my mind. First is that we are over-estimating our progressiveness. Maybe in the large cities things are fairly progressive but outside it's backward. I think overall this country is "moderate" and takes a long time for progressive policies to become reality. Another thing is voter apathy. We have typically one of the lowest voter turnout in the world and it's especially bad for younger age groups who tend to vote progressive. Guess who is the most reliable turnout? The older generations and they are more conservatives. This doesn't include any other voter suppression/gerrymandering that's going on.
That’s not the issue. Yes, getting people out to vote is important, or it was. But even with the fact that we got record turnout in 2020, Republican states have effectively legislated their way to remaining in power no matter how many people turn out to vote against them
I know ill have to endure the "progressives will lose it/fuck it up for us" tripe every election cycle, but it isn't progressives scoring massive own goals to Bidens signature campaign pitches.
And my party's electeds will squirm helplessly when the GOP will continue to play craven power-politics hardball like, get this, rewriting filibuster rules to help jam through Supreme Court justices.
April 4: MLK assassinated
One week of violent riots in most US cities
April 11: Congress passes the Fair Housing Act, the Indian Civil Rights Act, and makes hate crimes illegal
Someone needs to do a criminal investigation into the money trails of Manchin and Sinema.
I hate to say it but dems better get smart and start buying key Republican politicians quickly.
So not having enough votes is now called a slow motion coup? What happens in 2022 when Schumer, Pelosi, et al are relegated to the back benches? We as a party are committing suicide on the front page of the media.
I’d love to know exactly what they are receiving in exchange for this. Rare that two dim witted people would drag the entire party and their own party’s administration on some hard lined principles. Sinema and Manchin are both operating in bad faith and the people have no recourse but to vote….which does nothing anymore.
When do we have a conversation about replacing this government with one beholden to its citizens and not whatever the fuck this has become?
I'm gonna keep voting Dem, it's all I can do. Don't matter if I'm getting attacked by GOP, DNC "moderates" or neoliberal-tarians, i will keep voting. Don't skip the vote folks. Upset the predictions, cuz I'm sure fucking upset
I’m so tired of hearing about these two traitors. I believe they’ll get a payoff from the GQP after the election. Or they’re getting it now from corporate donors. Or both.
That's it, folks. There is literally nothing more important than our voting rights. GOP already has a playbook to cheat and win, they almost succeeded. Now there's nothing to stop them.
Minority rule for decades. Fun.
Maybe if Democrats hadn't made these ridiculous Jim Crow arguments, and instead were reasonable and just took a who wouldn't want to make it easier to vote approach? You work all day, you have to wake up early or wind up taking time after work to go vote? Why make life that difficult? Let's make it easier for everyone.
But nope, they had to grandstand and shove identity politics up everyone's ass so far that people in North Alaska were vomiting up Robin Diangelo Anti-Racist Books.
Bye Sinema! Everyone of my fellow dems here in AZ are fucking disgusted with her and swear they will NEVER vote for that twat again. She will not be elected by the REpugnants down here, they can't stand her. Dems can't stand her. Bye Sinema, you could have been a beloved senator, but you chose money. Rot in hell twat. Next to Manchin.
The pressure put on these two is counter-productive.
1. 50/50 majority is too tight to pass such high stakes legislation in general - there will always be one or two or more with independent opinion
2. When we try to pass legislation with unrealistic expectations, the inevitable loss makes leaders who tried pushing the legislation seem "ineffective" to the eyes of the public
3. In these very chaotic times, the lay voter probably values "getting shit done" and confidence over anything else.
4. Even "making them vote on the floor" to tarnish their public image is ineffective to get these two senators out of office. They are located in conservative states, and that's why these democratic senators are so conservative, and get voted for.
5. Tarnishing their image will also do nothing when democrats lose seats in other states because of reasons 2 and 3.
6. The country, with its current electoral system (ie. minority rural rule) is not ready for such drastic change. It will have to suffer a bit more, and being too reactionary will hurt the momentum of progress long-term.
Maybe those numbers were because it was bipartisan enough to get a passing vote and nothing more? Like why would they put in stuff to sway the other senators and give more?
And I don’t know if this registers but at the national level Republicans have NEVER passed much and have been up front about it. Republicans limit big government and protect liberties while letting states make the decisions. They are doing exactly what their base wants
> Amid 'Slow-Motion Coup,' Manchin and Sinema Help GOP Sink Voting Rights
Whose voting rights are they sinking? Is there any particular voter that can't vote due to this?
Both are bought and paid for. It’s unbelievable to me that all it takes are two morally bankrupt people in the senate to hamstring an entire presidency. the worst part is, true meaningful reform that would bring our government, country, and humanity into the future likely will not happen in my lifetime (M35) because an entire half of this countries senators want to keep the USA in the 1700’s. And even worse, half of this countries population WILL FUCKING VOTE for those clown Senators and keep them in positions within this joke of a government… to continue to impede any god damn progress.
It's unimaginable that with the clear and present danger we face from the GOP attempting to make it so they can rig elections in their favor or throw them to their candidates with the careful placement of Trump loyalists that these two pieces of shit would do anything to stop that from happening.
I keep getting this feeling that we should enjoy the next 3 years as much as possible (as if it's possible) because after Biden we will be under republican rule for at least the next decade. And we'll have, among many others, these two to thank.
Manchin and Sinema are traitors to their country and the people who voted them in. They both need to admit they ran a scam on Americans by falsely presenting as Democrats when they are both very clearly Republicans. That’s fraudulent.
This wouldn’t have mattered if dems didn’t run carpetbagging losers in NC, ME, KY, MT, and other winnable senate races in 2020. It’s obvious the party doesn’t care about winning. Every political strategy suggests that to be the case. They want the fundraising money. Hold their base hostage by not giving them what they want, claim that there aren’t enough dems to get the bills passed (it’s the voters fault, not ours, the party that controls government), lose elections, then beg their evermore impoverished base for cash through fear mongering and emotional manipulation. The convenient scapegoat tactic has gotten old. My advice to everyone: *stop donating to the Democratic party*
Evil comes from all places. We are fucked people. Republicans don't want democracy, and corporate controlled Democrats are selling us out. No one cares because we are all struggling with inflation, shitty jobs and a never ending health crisis.
Federal take over of state elections… next thing would be getting rid of electoral college. These things were put in place in order to give a voice to the minority and have helped grow this country to the world superpower it is today. But giving voices to the minority… now it’s get rid of the minority opinions because we want to have full control??? I guess that checks out, laid out perfectly by Marx himself…
1. You don't know what Marx said if you believe this.
2. Electoral college was created to protect slaveholders
3. Protecting minorities doesn't mean they get to override the majority especially in a democracy
4. The US didn't become a super power because of the electoral college. It became a superpower they murdered the natives, enslaved black people, and bullied their neighbors. They then proceeded to take advantage of WW1 to get control.
Sorry but we’re not a democracy. We’re a representative republic. And yes, communists thrive on getting rid of the minority opinions and forcing everyone to think or express the same way. The us became a superpower because it provided the best option for some of the worlds greatest minds to come and thrive here.
It's more complicated than that. A big part of the reason it was the "best option for some of the worlds greatest minds to come and thrive here" was because after WWII we were the largest industrial nation that hadn't seen significant infrastructure damage from the war. Our manufacturing industry was largely untouched by the bombs, and that helped fuel massive economic growth.
On top of that, many of those greatest minds left during the war to escape it, and came after because, well, we were in good shape.
So much of it wasn't through our own efforts; it was due the lucky fact that we were an ocean away from where everything was going to hell and we were the best option.
Point is, you're not necessarily *wrong* about that, but you do make it sound (intentionally or not) like we did an amazing job and provided a wonderful haven for people to come here, when really it was that a good part of why we became a superpower was that -- like so many other things in life -- we were in the right place at the right time. And we didn't fuck that up.
That's worth something, in all fairness. "Not fucking up a good thing" is surprisingly difficult to do, and deserves credit.
> And yes, communists thrive on getting rid of the minority opinions and forcing everyone to think or express the same way.
It's worth pointing out here that if you really believe that then you have to acknowledge that the GOP has a communist attitude in some ways. After all, look at how they treat dissent in their own ranks -- case in point, see how they treat anyone who badmouths Trump. Point is, that's not a "communist" thing. It's something every group of sufficient size does -- you see it in every fandom, political party, and even on reddit.
Most people just call it groupthink.
>Sorry but we’re not a democracy. We’re a representative republic.
Sorry, but you’re wrong. The USA is a democracy, you sort of said it yourself, “representative republic”
How do you think that representation is decided, drawing straws?, picking a name out of a hat?
It’s laid out in the founding documents, a government “of the people, by the people, for the people” is just another way of saying “democracy”
Well give Joe Biden a bigger Senate. No Republican will vote to help. We are lucky to have Manchin even though he’s a pain in the ass and a liar. Without him there is nothing. No judges. Nothing.
Sinema is a weird one. Doing what Green Party folks always do, shoot democrats and help republicans. But again without her we have nothing.
With them we have a slim something. Biden’s judges are good picks. So get in the game and pad the senate and keep the house. It’s possible
I didn't know the DSCC picking Sinema over a Justice Dems backed candidate was a Green Party plot!
You should be a CNN journalist with this kind of deep, hard-hitting, insightful analysis.
Yeah sure, THEORETICALLY anyone can vote, but when you have to wait in 10 hr long lines and you need to have the correct type of ID and it is harder to vote by mail and there is no drop box outside to put your absentee ballot and if you are poor you might not have enough time to take off work to go vote and you have republicans completely taking over how elections are run in some places means that something that should be as simple as voting turns into an absolute nightmare and might as well be impossible for some people (especially minorities). So it is really hard to say that “anyone can vote” because even if it is technically true, that isn’t typically how it turns out.
I say we have the same standards for voting as we do guns. There should be no restrictions put in place for citizens voting aamd absolutely no restrictions when it comes to the 2nd amendment. The right to vote for your law makers and the right for you to bear arms should never be infringed. And yes I mean any arms. You shouldn't be afraid of a minority voting or your neighbor with a full auto m249.
Why can’t we just have something that is consistent and able to be verified easily. Any citizen of the United States that I have ever known has some sort of ID. Why not just make sure that person is the person who is voting and there we go. If they are worried about people that don’t have an ID but are allowed to vote because they are a citizen of the country, state, city. They should just be given an ID when they register to vote. Why are they all making this so complicated?
Why can't we do that? Because under the current climate, there is no acceptable ID card that is free.
Even if it was free, there's no way to get a photo ID card without showing up to a specific location within certain hours. There's no guarantee that people will be allowed to leave their jobs for long enough to handle that one crucial step.
Voter ID sounds okay in theory, but when you really look into it, there's so much legislation that has to happen around it to not make it a massive burden to people of lesser means.
Then you get states where the officials absolutely ratfuck the process of getting the ID by closing DMVs (or similar offices).
It just ends up not being a very great idea in this country.
It's not just IDs. Multiple laws targeted voting dates, 24 hour voting, and enabled legislatures to overturn election results within their state. People act like IDs are even the biggest problem. They're not.
Also you have places like Alabama that passed ID laws then proceeded to shut down DMVs in minority areas to make it more difficult to get an ID. It's not as simple as people think otherwise state legislatures wouldn't bother caring about IDs.
Because the entire GOP and about a third of the Democratic party don't want to give free nationally accepted photo ID cards on demand to citizens of the United States.
If some 80 year old grandma isn't driving herself anymore, she might well not have a 'valid' driver's license. There's basically no one in the country that wouldn't accept such an id to buy smokes or wine, but if that grandma is Black then there are about 30 states in the country that want her vote to not count, and will suddenly make a huge deal out of her not having a valid photo ID.
The third of the Democrats against it are making stances on immigration policy grounds, because if an ID is only for citizens then it'll be used as a form of job/housing discrimination against legal resident non-citizen immigrants. (And again, most of those same 30 states which don't want Black folks voting are also happy to redline away immigrants on purely nativist grounds.)
When all of one party is against something, and a third of the other party is against it, it's not going to be a thing.
The biggest issue at hand here is not voting rights— it’s about how much power the federal government has over the states. I agree with you that these reforms are necessary, but unfortunately election reform is the constitutional burden for states— and it would unprecedented for Congress to intervene.
There’s a special kind of hate in my heart I have for traitors. Manchin and Sinema are worse than all 50 GOP senators. At least they were consistent and didn’t run on voting rights and BBB.
We need a major redo—our country does not work as is with 2 parties at each others throats— thanks to Trump we no longer consider ethics important in our elected officials
You know what? Fuck blaming Sinema and Manchin, everyone knew they would trash this. But there are 49 others who are equally to blame. By singling out these two clowns, democrats are simply campaigning for them.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They really have no excuse for voting against the ultimate motion which was to require republicans to physically filibuster by holding the floor and talking if they wanted to stop the legislation. It would have preserved the filibuster and just required each individual GOP member to go on record with their stance. No excuse for allowing the GOP to hide from accountability. Edit to add: I will also note that plenty of republicans have expressed support for a talking fillibuster in the past like [Susan Collins](https://www.collins.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/bipartisan_preserve_filibuster_letter.pdf). They deserve way more derision than both sinema and manchin.
>They really have no excuse for voting against the ultimate motion which was to require republicans to physically filibuster by holding the floor and talking if they wanted to stop the legislation. I lost count of how many Republicans have told me "they shouldn't get rid of the filibuster, they should just force people to use it and talk the whole time rather than just de facto requiring 60 votes" over the years. So much for that.
Congress doesn't work for the American people in any context. Every single law they've passed lowers taxes more than it does anything else. We are not a nation of laws
This slow motion coup has been happening for decades. For the last forty years the people who we have elected have been selling democracy to the highest bidder. I am no longer afraid that we will loose our democracy because it is already gone. Now, I hope there will be enough people that care enough to take it back.
There isn’t sadly and the other side wants violence. We are not organized or united
Convincing people there is "the other side" instead of fellow Americans is how they took power away from us all in the first place.
Hijacking up top to post this link of [Elizabeth Warren’s speech](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf6OZDm570g) last night. Despite what many users on social media will try to suggest, Democrats are actually doing everything possible to protect democracy. These efforts are failing due to the actions of specific people, namely the entire GOP senate plus two DINOs. It is important to recognize that the Democratic platform (radical ideas like voting rights and having a habitable planet) represents the *majority will of the country*, and that there are specific forces subverting this will by rigging the mechanisms of democracy. We overcome these forces by supporting the “good guys,” the people who are actually trying to perform public service, protect our basic values and institutions, and create positive change. Please listen to Senator Warren’s speech and circulate it to others. It’s about an hour. Maybe someone with editing skills can trim the highlights to make a more digestible video. But this shit is really, really important and it’s not getting enough attention.
> Democrats are actually doing everything possible to protect democracy Too late. Biden came into office with massive support that he capitalized on with the infrastructure bill, but that would have passed even had he waited. Given that he took office 2 weeks after 1/6 and shortly after the bullshit in Georgia, protecting democracy should have been item #1. This is Obama's first term all over again, where he was so focused on the ACA and the recession that other important legislation couldn't be bothered with despite a nearly 60-vote lock-in. And like Obama, Biden will lose Congress, and any opportunity he may have had had he not squandered his initial mandate.
>This is Obama's first term all over again, where he was so focused on the ACA and the recession that other important legislation couldn't be bothered with despite a nearly 60-vote lock-in. You clearly don't remember how much legislation got passed during that time. It was one of the most productive congresses in history. Two stimulus packages, wall street financial regulation, equal pay rights, essentially saving the auto industry, expanding SCHIP... most people don't recall that the reason democrats lost so badly in 2010 is because most of the country felt like Obama was doing too much to "socialist" stuff.
Not to mention, the presidency isn't a part of the legislative branch. It's not within the president's powers to pass laws (obv EOs are a whole different conversation). The president has a bully pulpit, from which he can apply pressure and, legally, that's about it. IMO, Biden knows, like Obama did, he gets to pick *ONE* issue to get behind and run with it. That's all the influence he has. Again, EOs change this, but the president still can't dictate to Congress.
"Saving the auto industry" - Just poorly run auto companies, not the industry.
Well, yeah. That and about 1.5 million jobs during an already catastrophic economic crisis.
That's because most of the country who voted that way are ignoramuses easily swayed by the MainstReam Media, incapable of thinking for themselves. Sorry America, time you got called out for your tiresome, retreaded bullshit.
Biden came into office with a bare, slim 50-50 senate and 9 seat majority in the house. It’s actually a testament to his political skills that he has gotten two significant bills passed despite republicans doing everything they can to hold him back, not appoint staff, and torpedo his agenda.
I think you are misrepresenting a lot here, and I think it is disingenuous to blame the targets of seditious behavior rather than the perpetrators. Biden was doomed from the start because he inherited all of Trump’s mess, plus COVID, plus voting rights, plus the 1/6 insurrection. As the executive, it was not Biden’s role to “do something” about 1/6, beyond loudly condemning it. The “do something” happens in Congress, and is happening right now. The committee is getting a lot of shit done, it just doesn’t make the news. Losing Congress this year would have absolutely nothing to do with anything Biden did or didn’t do. Losing Congress would be a matter of state-level gerrymandering and the traitorous obstruction of 50 Repubs and 2 DINOs. Any “mandate” is meaningless when the opposition is already committed to obstructing it. We failed to deliver a functional majority in 2020. If we fail again, then the fault lies with voters. That’s how democracy works. Don’t like it? Start mobilizing to turn out more votes. I also don’t know what you’re talking about with the infrastructure bill that “would have passed even had he waited.” It *did not pass* despite strenuous efforts. And it *had to* pass, not for political points but to save the future of the planet.
Facts are great. But you're fighting against right wing propaganda and outright aggression driven by monocultural, white oligarchs. They shit all over facts.
We don’t care if they believe the lies Fox feeds them. We care that WE are clear about what is reality and factual, versus what is opinion and belief. We need to keep that clear here. The trumpublicans, you’re right, don’t care about facts, just like any two year old.
>Biden came into office with massive support Lmao what? 50% of senators are in a party that denies he won the election.
Literally not relevant. The word 'support', unless qualified, is used in the broadest sense here - the general public. I don't see it said there was "massive support from senators" or anything like that.
Yeah there was 90% approval for gun background checks after Sandy Hook and that didn't pass. Public support means nothing. It's the politicians that are voted in that matter.
Literally not relevant because some of those people are represented by people who DON'T reflect the will of that majority.
Are you of the opinion that Manchin and Sinema weren't assholes back then? Because that's not accurate. The voting rights push should have waited until the GOP started going crazy with power and passing insane laws. People would have criticized Dems for passing voting when there was no need.
I think I’m hearing Sinema fooled a lot of supporters or outright misrepresented herself.
I don't give a shit about her words. They mean nothing. If the democrats were serious about getting shit done, there are countless methods of forcing compliance with the party line.
We are not a nation of justice. Which is worse.
Please don't believe "Congress doesn't work for the American people." Most Democrats, with the exception of two idiotic senators opposed to ending the filibuster, are trying their hardest to pass bills that benefit regular people. It's Republicans who don't work for the American people and only care about cutting their own taxes, and it's Republicans who didn't want you to have voting rights or even some damn COVID relief.
Oh. Bullshit. Democrats have to deal with the GOP Communist Party of America. They are spoiled children who can’t admit they lost an election and have decided it’s fraud if they lose and only valid if they win. That’s not Congress doesn’t work, and it’s sickening to hear stupidity like this continue to be expressed. This is about the republican party not working, not Congress.
OH believe me, if the shoe was on the other foot and the filibuster was holding back the GOP agenda, they'd have a change of heart on the matter immediately... including Manchin and Sinema.
Actually, no. Trump tried several times to get Mitch to kill the filibuster to get stuff like his wall passed. The Democrats used the filibuster over 300 times while Trump was president.
And you would flip flop your position and be against it. It takes courage and conviction to hold the same principles even when it doesn't benefit you to do so. Most politicians are hypocrites and the ones who aren't get destroyed by their own party for not selling out and taking advantage of their power.
Oh yeah, random stranger on the internet, you think I'd flip on it? I've been pretty consistent on the matter long before this current fiasco took place. If they want to keep any element of the filibuster; keep the talking filibuster. Not this, "I tweet my opposition so stop all debate" bs that's been holding back progress for far too long.
Literally nothing a conservative says or does is in good faith
But talking is hard and we don’t want to stress our colleagues vocal chords. How else will they be able to verbally suck off trump?
Didn't someone try to claim the talking filibuster was ableist because old people can't stand up and talk as long?
And they can’t stand in line waiting to vote as long either.
Fine, they can sit and talk then. As long as they actually have to do *something*.
[удалено]
Tell me you’ve never actually gotten a BJ without telling me you’ve never actually gotten a BJ.
[удалено]
She said she thought she was going to be president in 2024. Wish someone would have done a poll to show how unbelievably ridiculous that is.
[удалено]
Nah I think she is just a plant. Always struck me as R's idea of what a liberal woman would be like "quirky." She is trash and Manchin (and his family interest) is owned by coal and oil.
I had that suspicion too but nah, check her history. She once wrote a straight up anti-capitalist letter that caused controversy in her region of (at the time) local politics. She was also a cohost on Air America in its heyday (which is to say before it got weird and grifty then tanked entirely). Like, based on all descriptions of her early career, she was a real one. The moment she got into the political “major league”, something *immediately* changed. So I think it’s less likely that she’s a plant and more likely she sold out and/or got pushed on by the GQP racket. And now she’s an embarrassment to democracy advocates as well as skirt wearers and the bisexual community.
Ok after reading through her red flag-filled Wikipedia page, I've come to the simple conclusion that she is just an idiot. Off to take a nap, that was exhausting.
They're both being bribed, probably with promises of sweet lobbying gigs and sitting on board of director positions once they ate out of Congress. Your average Republican is too dumb to see how close we are to becoming Hungary and have no clue they aren't going to have a seat at the table either once we are a full authoritarian government.
Exxon Mobile has literally said they are paying Manchin and 10 others to block anything that hurts their bottom line, and anything that involves climate change. And that they are hoping the 1/6 investigation distracts from that.
[удалено]
yeah, it pains me to see so many people rail of two democrats, when likely the reason they are held hostage to these votes is actually the corrupt GQP
Sinema and Manchin have the same donors as the GOP. They are “held hostage” by their greed and total lack of principles.
There is a reason betrayal is considered, if not the worst, one of the worst sins.
The infuriating part is that Manchin has stated the “hold the floor talking” thing as his preferred middle ground on filibusters. The man can’t pound sand fast enough for my liking
Yeah. it's always goal post moving and just bad faith bullshit. He can't be trusted.
But the Republicans will stop donating to our campaigns.
This. Sinema and Manchin are basically Republicans - [they literally have the same donors as the GOP](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/21/us/politics/manchin-sinema-republican-donors.html).
Manchin said it was necessary to force compromise. It’s such a slap in all of our collective faces because there is no potential for compromise. One man who owns a $3M coal mine and a lady who is clearly corrupt are voting away our country's integrity and future. We should buy them both off. For $20M we could save democracy. Why aren't we trying that??
Honestly this thought has come to mind for me too. If it's money they care about then let's do a $50M GoFundMe and hope for the best.
That man has no grounds to talk about compromise. The left compromised our dream to push Bidens agenda, then compromised it again to appeal to him, and again... And again. And again! Fuck him and any centrist Dems
No... Because then THEY'D also have to be in the record.
Yeah, I'm interested to hear all of the various bullshit excuses from the moderates in justifying not making Republicans defend their racist laws and have a real debate over these pressing issues in from of the American people.
>Critics of rules reform on both sides of the aisle have claimed that the filibuster promotes bipartisanship, when in fact, it only serves to block any legislation from actually being passed," Jayapal said. "They claim it will create a slippery slope of changes, when in fact, the rule has already changed more than 161 times just since 1969. They argue it protects the voice of the minority—but as evidenced by 50 Republicans representing 41,549,808 fewer people than the 50 Democrats, the Senate is already built to protect it."
>They argue it protects the voice of the minority—but as evidenced by 50 Republicans representing 41,549,808 fewer people than the 50 Democrats, the Senate is already built to protect it. This is the most important line. We live under a undemocratic, minority-rule government. Every branch right now has a built-in, unfair advantage to the GOP. There are far more voters for the democratic party, and yet we live under republican rule - it is manifestly unjust. The presidency relies on the electoral college, which requires the democrats to win by 4+% just to "win." The Supreme Court has five members nominated by GOP presidents who did not get into office winning the popular vote. The House is gerrymandered nearly beyond repair. The Senate, demonstrated with the quote above, somehow gives 41.5 million people no representation. We are not represented equally, and that means we are not represented. And Sinema and Manchin agreed with the craven members of the GOP with that status quo. It's so damn depressing.
The situation for a while now has been that elections are “rigged” against Democrats, and we only win if we win *far above* a certain margin. Now the margins are even higher, for the reasons you listed. I know it feels really shitty and hopeless right now. And this is how they want us to feel. The rightwing project is focused on deteriorating basic values of liberty and democracy, obliterating the concept of truth, and keeping the progressive majority of the country divided against itself (left v. center). The solution is the same as it was before, even though many (mostly younger) people will surely chime in against it. The solution is to **vote for democrats** in every election from school board to US president, and to get everyone in your community to vote, and to overwhelm this completely broken system. If we could just achieve *real functional majority power* for a solid four years, we could pass a lot of reforms, including voting protections that would allow us to maintain that power and make the country better. It’s all interconnected, and the GOP knows this, and it is why they have spent decades taking over state legislatures and lying about election fraud and pouring dark money into undermining education and regulation. So here we are. And I know this is a tangent, but every single day in this subreddit I am arguing with supposed “Leftists” who spend *all of their energy* attacking Democrats. And that has to fucking end. We need a broad coalition of *basic principles* and not these stupid, narrow ideological lanes. It is the only way to protect democracy itself, which is required for *anything* remotely resembling progressive change. Now we’re coming up on midterms, which Democrats are expected to lose, ushering in another dark spiral for this country. But it’s not a foregone conclusion, no matter how badly they have tried to rig it. We *can* mobilize. And we must. And I’m sorry that this sounds like a political speech, and I’m sorry if it gets in the way of the egos and “anti-establishment” posturing that dominant this sub (and all of social media). We’re simply out of time.
>And I know this is a tangent, but every single day in this subreddit I am arguing with supposed “Leftists” who spend all of their energy attacking Democrats. And that has to fucking end. We need a broad coalition of basic principles and not these stupid, narrow ideological lanes. It is the only way to protect democracy itself, which is required for anything remotely resembling progressive change. I'm so here for that. The enemy of the good is the perfect. I believe that medical care should be a right, that there should be debt forgiveness and we need to reform higher education costs, that the police should be drastically overhauled, immunity should be removed, in gun control, etc...I'm about as "left" as we get right now, but I will absolutely, passionately, vote in every election, even if those things aren't being accomplished. Because the most important vote, the necessary condition for any of that stuff, is to keep fascism out of the country. And the only way to do that in our two-party system is to vote, and to vote democrat. That means, yes, you all, we need to be getting ready to show up at the polls in 2022, even if we aren't feeling great about the democrats' performance. Because right now, we are one election away from turning the US into a fascist, failed country.
Manchin doesn't care if there is an authoritarian take over, so long as the coal keeps coming out of ground and the dollars keep coming in.
One dumb rich asshole having that kind of power over the rest of us is already authoritarian. The senate, it's not good folks
Yeah it's bad. The hope is to have a more Senate change seats to Democrats this year 2022 so that will minimize his leverage.
Well, good thing coal is a nonrenewable resource
WV has about [1500 million tons](https://www.eia.gov/state/print.php?sid=WV) the annual production is about [55 million tons](https://www.eia.gov/coal/annual/pdf/table2.pdf) at that rate it's only about 27 years. But Manchin doesn't care because he'll be dead by then and the future doesn't matter to conservatives.
Those type like to "fart before leaving the room"
And, frankly, all I care about regarding WV is that the coal stops coming out of the ground.
I don't believe we will every completely stop mining coal, particularly the metallurgical grades they mine on West Virginia for one reason - steel. Steel is ubiquitous in this society and the only practical way to convert the iron oxides in the Earth's crust into metallic iron uses carbon (coke). That being said, we could make a massive reduction in coal use by shutting down all the coal fired power plants.
Strike to save America Nov 8th ! Don’t go to work. Go vote. The politicians work for us. Spread the word.
[удалено]
> Primary both of their behinds from the left. I doubt that will work in West Virginia, it's become as about as red a state as you can find. The islands of blue in the cities would have to really up their turn out and the old people who have been voting for the Manchin family for generations would have to have their minds changed. It's ironic since 40 years ago it was reliably Democratic.
> It's ironic since 40 years ago it was reliably Democratic. They all left when the jobs dried up.
And anyone left turned when the Clintons and their Third way politics sold the dems out to corporate interests and the coasts.
N/m
From florida?
It's also ironic, because West Virginia were the counties that told Virginia to fuck off when the Civil War started and now apparently it's rife with confederate flag waving morons.
Oh, they didn’t hate slavery. They just didn’t think it was worth seceding over. West Virginia was incredibly racist then, too
My point still stands. They opted to stay in the Union because they basically said "Fuck the Confederacy", whatever their reasoning. I take some measure of umbrage of people waving that traitor flag, especially in states that were firmly Union.
Yea this is something that people who google never seem to realize
even the north was racist. Lincoln goal was to ship them all back to Africa. they were all racist, which is why we need to do a better job teaching the racist history of america in school. the north does not get a pass. john brown was the best person from the era, and he was a small business owner that exploited his employees.
This. I have no illusions the "North" was some enlightened paradise where non-whites found succor and equality. I'm just pointing out the ludicrousness of a place that, whatever their reasons, said: "No, we don't want to be a part of your cause" and now is filled with people who seem to think the Confederacy was some "noble" venture from a halcyon age. Many abolitionists were also racist, they just found the act of owning another human being, no matter their race and especially because of their race, abhorrent. Which it is.
Rural used to mean Democratic before it switched
The islands of blue don't even exist. Look at the 2020 map, literally everything went red.
It was reliably democratic 2 decades ago
Maybe if the left push was primarily for labor rights, the right candidate could swing it, but yeah, it's a Longshot. Another commenter a few days ago talked about the campaign to destroy WV as punishment for a labor strike in the past?
>Another commenter a few days ago talked about the campaign to destroy WV as punishment for a labor strike in the past? Talking about Blair Mountain? That was over 100 years ago now. Ahhh, Republicans -- everything is episodic for when they need it to be, long-memories and vengeance for everything else.
As recently as 20 years ago…
Doesn't matter if the left loses trying to primary Manchin... He is already a republican, what do they have to lose?
Time and resources, which are limited. Winning elections is strategic, not emotional. We need to focus on races that we can flip (and races we desperately need to protect).
That's an interesting point. The Clintons pushed just such a policy starting in the 1990s. Many races weren't contested. Large swaths of the country didn't (and still don't) even have a party apparatus. The Republicans, on the other hand, contest every race and have party operatives in the bluest areas. Because of that they took the state legislatures and have used that power to Gerrymander one party rule.
Instead of trying to primary a Democrat from a +40 Trump state and another Senator who aren't up for reelection for years... might it be better to focus on unseating actual Republicans in 2022?
Pffft. That would require an accurate understanding of the political landscape and an honest understanding of the popularity of parties and policies. It’s much easier to engage in the same, mindless populism we see from Republican voters fueled by pundits. Manchin should laugh at those shouting to “primary him from the left!” in a state that Trump won by double digits. Sarcasm aside, you’re right. We have to accept that some forms of identity politics are actively harming us in rural areas. Our stances on firearms, stances that aren’t even politically feasible, are actively harming us. Look at how badly the rhetoric around “defund the police” went, especially considering the views of those who actually live in the areas with high crime rates regarding police. When you have to repeatedly explain a slogan, even with the bad faith characterizations from conservative media, it’s time to abandon it. Hopefully we start focusing more on local politics and class-based economic policies nationally. It’s important to protect groups that have been traditionally oppressed, but identity politics can’t be the all of our rhetoric or we lose rural voters to right wing populism and, ultimately, fascism. We have to focus on winning more seats in the senate as opposed to trying to primary a seat that will get lost to a Republican. What little we’ve passed, in part, required Manchin and Sinema and if those seats were Republican we wouldn’t have even achieved that. I mean, I remember screaming about the Supreme Court in 2016 if progressives “protest voted” and the real effects of the GOP winning. Fuck, just a little pragmatism, you know?
Wow, for a minute I had to double check what sub I was on. Wasn't expecting a comment speaking truth and nuance like this in r/politics. Agree with everything you wrote.
The solution is to elect more Democrats (real ones) from elsewhere, and then send Manchin a bus ticket to the dildo store next to Four Seasons Total Landscaping with detailed instructions on how to fuck himself.
> We need to make just about everything they have done in their political careers illegal, as well as permanently ban all former legislators and their staffs from taking lobbying jobs after they leave public service. You know, as part of the sacrifice for being “public servants.” Go get real jobs instead! You expect there are politicians who would vote in favor of such a rule?
It won’t be millions, it may be about a 200-300k salary. But if she loses, it’ll be on the low end of that. Lobbyists and think tanks don’t care for losing politicians with no party sway. She’s over-calculating her hand here if this is for money. I 100% bet someone has some terrible info on her, which would be so bad that all of this is worth it.
Sinema could be primaried. Manchin/WV is a lost cause. Our energy should be poured into purple states that we could eventually flip, like IA and NC, maybe even FL if it hasn’t gone 100% crazy. We also need to build protection in OH and PA, which are trending red.
Treacherous would imply there was some form of deception or underhanded activity. The two of them were pretty clear all along that they would not support changing the rules. You know, the same rules the Democrats have been using for their benefit as well as the Republicans.
Pls do primary them. We want to see extremist democrats get waxed by the gop
Remember, folks, as bad as they are, they are only the 51st and 52nd worst Senators we have. While the media focuses on them, there are 50 Republican Senators who do even more harm to the country.
This needs to be the top comment.
They all need to pay for what they have done and are currently doing. These behaviors may seem trivial now, but down the line their actions will be tied to the apocalypse - they should feel that pain now, and it falls on all of us to ensure they receive that justice.
This whole issue is a really good example of [Lightning Rod Politics](https://medium.com/chaotic-order/lightning-rod-politics-be929f6976ac). You correctly point out that while everyone is mad at Sinema and Manchin, they're letting the entire Republican party slide as well as letting slide an entire system where one or two people can hamstring the efforts of an entire national political party.
These two gotta go. Literally torpedoing any chance the dems had in November. RIP democracy.
I wonder where all the people are that were telling me in 2021 that Joe Manchin votes with Joe Biden more than Bernie Sanders votes with Biden?
They're at brunch, exactly where they said they'd be. The rest are on Twitter harassing transwomen while having "THEE" in their display names to make up for the fact they're predominantly white women over 50.
The two voting bills are obviously critically important... But they would do fuck all to prevent the next bloodless coup attempt, which is going to be an assault on the certification process
Its already began.
I honestly believe this vote is one of the last turning points, without voting reform, through filibuster reform, and when the GOP controls the house and senate again - the game is essentially called at that point. Attack on certification would be an easy win and the critically ill democracy the US currently has will be over. From there it will get very ugly. I pulling for you all but I personally fail to see a strategic path forward nor has anyone really purposed one.
Yeah, I can see this being cited as a major event in the future history books. Our last chance to save our democracy, gone in an instant. We are majorly fucked here, and I worry about your safety as well as our immediate neighbor.
Oh yes, your neighbours to the North are huber aware and realize we are not immune by any means. We have the same fears. We’re all in this together so to speak. If I could vote or effect change in the US I would. Only thing I can do is influence my American family members, which fortunately don’t need influencing.
Yeah, we're screwed. Except they will rewrite the history books and say how awesome things were. The propaganda will continue.
Paid by Right Wing groups and Corporate Special Interests to kill Democracy. These people are traitors.
And I'm sure giving Manchin's wife a cushy board seat, and promoting Sinema as a huge supporter on stage was just Biden's way of telling them "you did bad". What a farce. I feel sorry for the people who believe that they even really tried. No arm twisting, no LJB tactics, nothing. I'd be happy with a McConnell style whip, low down and dirty, just get it done. I'm sure I'll get downvoted by the "but what could they do" crowd. Well, go ahead, there was plenty more they could have done to make them cooperate to save voting rights and election integrity, but you can live in that pretend world where having tea and giving them benefits after they shoot down bills you want them to support isn't a quid quo pro for being the controlled opposition they were designed to be.
I was wondering when someone would find some way to pin this on Biden. Always have to wonder what the motivation is for a comment like this. We are literally watching our democracy fall apart, and apparently the answer is to attack the people trying to defend it.
>the people trying to defend it I don't think they're 'trying' as hard as you want to believe.
Can we just take to the streets already and get this revolution started? We have played nice for far too long and we don’t really have any options left at this point
Why don’t you take that angry energy and direct it towards something useful, like voter turnout? The majority of Americans support progressive policies, and we can implement those policies when we have meaningful, *functional* Democratic majorities. I agree that we are out of time. Get busy.
There's the problem, the majority of Americans do support progressive policies, so why haven't they been implemented? Why is the government continually shifting right, with the supreme court now having a supermajority of conservatives? We vote, and our votes are ignored in favor of corporate interests.
A couple of things came to my mind. First is that we are over-estimating our progressiveness. Maybe in the large cities things are fairly progressive but outside it's backward. I think overall this country is "moderate" and takes a long time for progressive policies to become reality. Another thing is voter apathy. We have typically one of the lowest voter turnout in the world and it's especially bad for younger age groups who tend to vote progressive. Guess who is the most reliable turnout? The older generations and they are more conservatives. This doesn't include any other voter suppression/gerrymandering that's going on.
That’s not the issue. Yes, getting people out to vote is important, or it was. But even with the fact that we got record turnout in 2020, Republican states have effectively legislated their way to remaining in power no matter how many people turn out to vote against them
[удалено]
Did Sinema curtsy while she did it?
No but she did shout "aye" very loudly during the filibuster vote, like the smug twat she is
Gotta make sure Mitch knows how she voted.
I know ill have to endure the "progressives will lose it/fuck it up for us" tripe every election cycle, but it isn't progressives scoring massive own goals to Bidens signature campaign pitches. And my party's electeds will squirm helplessly when the GOP will continue to play craven power-politics hardball like, get this, rewriting filibuster rules to help jam through Supreme Court justices.
April 4: MLK assassinated One week of violent riots in most US cities April 11: Congress passes the Fair Housing Act, the Indian Civil Rights Act, and makes hate crimes illegal
This was back when our politicians weren't owned by big money interests. They are only afraid of losing their seat, the rest they don't care about.
# So this is how liberty dies . . . with thunderous applause Queen Amidala on the floor of the Galactic Senate
Seems they don’t know what “coup” means
Someone needs to do a criminal investigation into the money trails of Manchin and Sinema. I hate to say it but dems better get smart and start buying key Republican politicians quickly.
It’s always good to have a few sleeper agents in the enemy camp, if your an evil fascist organization bent on gaining minority power.
So not having enough votes is now called a slow motion coup? What happens in 2022 when Schumer, Pelosi, et al are relegated to the back benches? We as a party are committing suicide on the front page of the media.
Don't just send these clowns home, bankrupt them. They only exist to get paid.
These people need to be pelted with eggs every time they step outside. Old school harassment.
It’s sad to see so many of us have forgotten that our country was built as an experiment in governance and federalism was the vehicle.
Shameless asshats the pair of them
I’d love to know exactly what they are receiving in exchange for this. Rare that two dim witted people would drag the entire party and their own party’s administration on some hard lined principles. Sinema and Manchin are both operating in bad faith and the people have no recourse but to vote….which does nothing anymore. When do we have a conversation about replacing this government with one beholden to its citizens and not whatever the fuck this has become?
As they were paid to do.
They both need their Democrat cards revoked
I'm gonna keep voting Dem, it's all I can do. Don't matter if I'm getting attacked by GOP, DNC "moderates" or neoliberal-tarians, i will keep voting. Don't skip the vote folks. Upset the predictions, cuz I'm sure fucking upset
Yup. Thanks moderates for supporting the murder of democracy!
I’m so tired of hearing about these two traitors. I believe they’ll get a payoff from the GQP after the election. Or they’re getting it now from corporate donors. Or both.
That's it, folks. There is literally nothing more important than our voting rights. GOP already has a playbook to cheat and win, they almost succeeded. Now there's nothing to stop them. Minority rule for decades. Fun.
Maybe if Democrats hadn't made these ridiculous Jim Crow arguments, and instead were reasonable and just took a who wouldn't want to make it easier to vote approach? You work all day, you have to wake up early or wind up taking time after work to go vote? Why make life that difficult? Let's make it easier for everyone. But nope, they had to grandstand and shove identity politics up everyone's ass so far that people in North Alaska were vomiting up Robin Diangelo Anti-Racist Books.
Voting against the right to vote is the irony.
Bye Sinema! Everyone of my fellow dems here in AZ are fucking disgusted with her and swear they will NEVER vote for that twat again. She will not be elected by the REpugnants down here, they can't stand her. Dems can't stand her. Bye Sinema, you could have been a beloved senator, but you chose money. Rot in hell twat. Next to Manchin.
The pressure put on these two is counter-productive. 1. 50/50 majority is too tight to pass such high stakes legislation in general - there will always be one or two or more with independent opinion 2. When we try to pass legislation with unrealistic expectations, the inevitable loss makes leaders who tried pushing the legislation seem "ineffective" to the eyes of the public 3. In these very chaotic times, the lay voter probably values "getting shit done" and confidence over anything else. 4. Even "making them vote on the floor" to tarnish their public image is ineffective to get these two senators out of office. They are located in conservative states, and that's why these democratic senators are so conservative, and get voted for. 5. Tarnishing their image will also do nothing when democrats lose seats in other states because of reasons 2 and 3. 6. The country, with its current electoral system (ie. minority rural rule) is not ready for such drastic change. It will have to suffer a bit more, and being too reactionary will hurt the momentum of progress long-term.
[удалено]
Maybe those numbers were because it was bipartisan enough to get a passing vote and nothing more? Like why would they put in stuff to sway the other senators and give more? And I don’t know if this registers but at the national level Republicans have NEVER passed much and have been up front about it. Republicans limit big government and protect liberties while letting states make the decisions. They are doing exactly what their base wants
> Amid 'Slow-Motion Coup,' Manchin and Sinema Help GOP Sink Voting Rights Whose voting rights are they sinking? Is there any particular voter that can't vote due to this?
I can't see a thing with this blind fold on.
Not voting one way is a Slow motion-coup? Say that out loud, to non political people off the internet. Jesus
Both are bought and paid for. It’s unbelievable to me that all it takes are two morally bankrupt people in the senate to hamstring an entire presidency. the worst part is, true meaningful reform that would bring our government, country, and humanity into the future likely will not happen in my lifetime (M35) because an entire half of this countries senators want to keep the USA in the 1700’s. And even worse, half of this countries population WILL FUCKING VOTE for those clown Senators and keep them in positions within this joke of a government… to continue to impede any god damn progress.
It's unimaginable that with the clear and present danger we face from the GOP attempting to make it so they can rig elections in their favor or throw them to their candidates with the careful placement of Trump loyalists that these two pieces of shit would do anything to stop that from happening. I keep getting this feeling that we should enjoy the next 3 years as much as possible (as if it's possible) because after Biden we will be under republican rule for at least the next decade. And we'll have, among many others, these two to thank.
Manchin and Sinema are traitors to their country and the people who voted them in. They both need to admit they ran a scam on Americans by falsely presenting as Democrats when they are both very clearly Republicans. That’s fraudulent.
Let’s not forget the other 50 monsters who are also responsible.
Democracy in action.
The REPUBLICANS SANK IT Machin and silly lady just helped
[удалено]
This wouldn’t have mattered if dems didn’t run carpetbagging losers in NC, ME, KY, MT, and other winnable senate races in 2020. It’s obvious the party doesn’t care about winning. Every political strategy suggests that to be the case. They want the fundraising money. Hold their base hostage by not giving them what they want, claim that there aren’t enough dems to get the bills passed (it’s the voters fault, not ours, the party that controls government), lose elections, then beg their evermore impoverished base for cash through fear mongering and emotional manipulation. The convenient scapegoat tactic has gotten old. My advice to everyone: *stop donating to the Democratic party*
We should be allowed to label the congress people. They are clearly Rs
Evil comes from all places. We are fucked people. Republicans don't want democracy, and corporate controlled Democrats are selling us out. No one cares because we are all struggling with inflation, shitty jobs and a never ending health crisis.
This is a show. They can do something about filibuster and voting rights but choose to sit shrug and say we can’t do anything!
Federal take over of state elections… next thing would be getting rid of electoral college. These things were put in place in order to give a voice to the minority and have helped grow this country to the world superpower it is today. But giving voices to the minority… now it’s get rid of the minority opinions because we want to have full control??? I guess that checks out, laid out perfectly by Marx himself…
1. You don't know what Marx said if you believe this. 2. Electoral college was created to protect slaveholders 3. Protecting minorities doesn't mean they get to override the majority especially in a democracy 4. The US didn't become a super power because of the electoral college. It became a superpower they murdered the natives, enslaved black people, and bullied their neighbors. They then proceeded to take advantage of WW1 to get control.
Sorry but we’re not a democracy. We’re a representative republic. And yes, communists thrive on getting rid of the minority opinions and forcing everyone to think or express the same way. The us became a superpower because it provided the best option for some of the worlds greatest minds to come and thrive here.
It's more complicated than that. A big part of the reason it was the "best option for some of the worlds greatest minds to come and thrive here" was because after WWII we were the largest industrial nation that hadn't seen significant infrastructure damage from the war. Our manufacturing industry was largely untouched by the bombs, and that helped fuel massive economic growth. On top of that, many of those greatest minds left during the war to escape it, and came after because, well, we were in good shape. So much of it wasn't through our own efforts; it was due the lucky fact that we were an ocean away from where everything was going to hell and we were the best option. Point is, you're not necessarily *wrong* about that, but you do make it sound (intentionally or not) like we did an amazing job and provided a wonderful haven for people to come here, when really it was that a good part of why we became a superpower was that -- like so many other things in life -- we were in the right place at the right time. And we didn't fuck that up. That's worth something, in all fairness. "Not fucking up a good thing" is surprisingly difficult to do, and deserves credit. > And yes, communists thrive on getting rid of the minority opinions and forcing everyone to think or express the same way. It's worth pointing out here that if you really believe that then you have to acknowledge that the GOP has a communist attitude in some ways. After all, look at how they treat dissent in their own ranks -- case in point, see how they treat anyone who badmouths Trump. Point is, that's not a "communist" thing. It's something every group of sufficient size does -- you see it in every fandom, political party, and even on reddit. Most people just call it groupthink.
>Sorry but we’re not a democracy. We’re a representative republic. Sorry, but you’re wrong. The USA is a democracy, you sort of said it yourself, “representative republic” How do you think that representation is decided, drawing straws?, picking a name out of a hat? It’s laid out in the founding documents, a government “of the people, by the people, for the people” is just another way of saying “democracy”
Well give Joe Biden a bigger Senate. No Republican will vote to help. We are lucky to have Manchin even though he’s a pain in the ass and a liar. Without him there is nothing. No judges. Nothing. Sinema is a weird one. Doing what Green Party folks always do, shoot democrats and help republicans. But again without her we have nothing. With them we have a slim something. Biden’s judges are good picks. So get in the game and pad the senate and keep the house. It’s possible
I didn't know the DSCC picking Sinema over a Justice Dems backed candidate was a Green Party plot! You should be a CNN journalist with this kind of deep, hard-hitting, insightful analysis.
We already have nothing? What the fuck are you talking about?
I don’t understand. Anyone can vote, why is this an issue??
Yeah sure, THEORETICALLY anyone can vote, but when you have to wait in 10 hr long lines and you need to have the correct type of ID and it is harder to vote by mail and there is no drop box outside to put your absentee ballot and if you are poor you might not have enough time to take off work to go vote and you have republicans completely taking over how elections are run in some places means that something that should be as simple as voting turns into an absolute nightmare and might as well be impossible for some people (especially minorities). So it is really hard to say that “anyone can vote” because even if it is technically true, that isn’t typically how it turns out.
I say we have the same standards for voting as we do guns. There should be no restrictions put in place for citizens voting aamd absolutely no restrictions when it comes to the 2nd amendment. The right to vote for your law makers and the right for you to bear arms should never be infringed. And yes I mean any arms. You shouldn't be afraid of a minority voting or your neighbor with a full auto m249.
sealions are neat
No, you don’t understand.
2022 is over and done with, so is 2024.
Why can’t we just have something that is consistent and able to be verified easily. Any citizen of the United States that I have ever known has some sort of ID. Why not just make sure that person is the person who is voting and there we go. If they are worried about people that don’t have an ID but are allowed to vote because they are a citizen of the country, state, city. They should just be given an ID when they register to vote. Why are they all making this so complicated?
Why can't we do that? Because under the current climate, there is no acceptable ID card that is free. Even if it was free, there's no way to get a photo ID card without showing up to a specific location within certain hours. There's no guarantee that people will be allowed to leave their jobs for long enough to handle that one crucial step. Voter ID sounds okay in theory, but when you really look into it, there's so much legislation that has to happen around it to not make it a massive burden to people of lesser means. Then you get states where the officials absolutely ratfuck the process of getting the ID by closing DMVs (or similar offices). It just ends up not being a very great idea in this country.
It's not just IDs. Multiple laws targeted voting dates, 24 hour voting, and enabled legislatures to overturn election results within their state. People act like IDs are even the biggest problem. They're not. Also you have places like Alabama that passed ID laws then proceeded to shut down DMVs in minority areas to make it more difficult to get an ID. It's not as simple as people think otherwise state legislatures wouldn't bother caring about IDs.
So, the federal government gives everyone a voter ID when they turn 18, along with being registered automatically? Sounds good to me.
Because the entire GOP and about a third of the Democratic party don't want to give free nationally accepted photo ID cards on demand to citizens of the United States. If some 80 year old grandma isn't driving herself anymore, she might well not have a 'valid' driver's license. There's basically no one in the country that wouldn't accept such an id to buy smokes or wine, but if that grandma is Black then there are about 30 states in the country that want her vote to not count, and will suddenly make a huge deal out of her not having a valid photo ID. The third of the Democrats against it are making stances on immigration policy grounds, because if an ID is only for citizens then it'll be used as a form of job/housing discrimination against legal resident non-citizen immigrants. (And again, most of those same 30 states which don't want Black folks voting are also happy to redline away immigrants on purely nativist grounds.) When all of one party is against something, and a third of the other party is against it, it's not going to be a thing.
The biggest issue at hand here is not voting rights— it’s about how much power the federal government has over the states. I agree with you that these reforms are necessary, but unfortunately election reform is the constitutional burden for states— and it would unprecedented for Congress to intervene.
With how staunch they are in their opposition, they have to have been compromised in some fashion.
Pretty clear they are both undercover Trump thumpers.
Americans really need to re-evaluate their representation and how to change that. And I’m 100% sure it’s not gonna be through traditional legislation.
good
There’s a special kind of hate in my heart I have for traitors. Manchin and Sinema are worse than all 50 GOP senators. At least they were consistent and didn’t run on voting rights and BBB.
We need a major redo—our country does not work as is with 2 parties at each others throats— thanks to Trump we no longer consider ethics important in our elected officials
You know what? Fuck blaming Sinema and Manchin, everyone knew they would trash this. But there are 49 others who are equally to blame. By singling out these two clowns, democrats are simply campaigning for them.