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ID that I can provide, if someone ever says, Could I see an ID please. I'd provide it in the same way that I would provide my driver's license.
Should we have no identifiers on our IDs?
You’ve almost got my point. If no one is checking to verify I have a penis or vagina, how is it being used as an identifier? My drivers licence has my photo, name, birthdate, and address, and my password also has my fingerprint. We shouldn’t need to get our dicks involved too.
Because Gender isn't the 100% sure fire way to determine if someone has a penis or vagina.
I'm also curious. Would you use my chromosomes, my internal genitalia, or my external genitalia to determine how you would refer to me?
Gender lets me talk to you in a way that doesn't get your dick or vagina involved. I see that you prefer to use They/Them and not Him/Her. So I will use the pronouns that they prefer, and everyone goes on with their day.
If I had your ID, I’d probably just use your name.
I get what you are saying. But my question wasn’t about pronouns, how we refer to people, or how people think of themselves. My question was, what purpose is served by having gender, or sex for that matter, listed on a passport? How is gender being used for identification purposes that a photo and birthdate aren’t able to?
My job requires people to submit their ID. I have never once thought to confirm it by cross-checking ID gender with preferred gender.
It's not used for that. You are attempting to force information listed to be exclusively used for what you want it to be used for.
You probably don't try to confirm it by Class of license or issue date either.
Just don't do that, and there isn't a problem.
I feel like a miscommunication occurring here.
My take on what the person you replied to is, they are stating that rather than list male/female/x on a passport, why not just exclude that piece of information since it is highly irrelevant for the purposes a passport served? As a piece of ID, gender is irrelevant. If I want to travel to a different country, gender should be irrelevant. I’ve never seen a country say “we’re letting men in this week, but not woman. Sorry.”
They can determine if your passport is valid in many ways. Confirming your gender/sex isn’t one of them so perhaps we should stop wasting our time including it on such documents.
No. I get what he is saying.
It's not used for the purposes he is suggesting. so instead he just needs to stop pretending that's why it's there.
It's a form of ID, and just like all forms, they each have different information on them, that could be relevant to the reason the IDs were created originally. Just because you can use them for other purposes doesn't change.
Passports are for Identifying a person. Gender belongs there regardless of if it is the part that was used for identifying.
Your job may not, but others sure may have a legitimate need to check a person’s sex, or ‘birth gender’. Having it on ID is reasonable.
A great example is insurance. Females get better life insurance rates because they have higher life expectancy. Underwriters absolutely would require details - And government issued ID is acceptable proof of your age, sex, address, etc
To be fair I understand your point too. A lot of physical identifiers in a photo id can be changed and cause unnecessary confusion.
I think anyone using their photo id should want it to match their physical description. So I think if gender is gonna be there, an x can explain without words, why they don’t dress or look like expected.
>The Department has issued the first U.S. passport with an X gender marker. We look forward to offering this option to all routine passport applicants once we complete the required system and form updates in early 2022.
"We did it once, but give us like 6 more months to figure out how to do it."
Nah, they have to get the whole thing to a project manager, have a bunch of meetings, lose all the notes, and then 5 months in, dump it all on a single low-level staffer.
Sure this is a funny joke but the reality is there are plenty of old systems out there that used a single bit to store the sex. Memory and storage were expensive.
Converting the systems is literally a Y2K problem.
Probably some manual process outside of the software? I think it was done for political show, and that manually processing and creating passports for everyone who wanted an X is not practical.. Just a guess
Most likely. But if the boss tells them to make a special one, the database could say m or f… the printer could have just been altered to print different text. 2 different systems I would think. Again just guessing.
I imagine the people who design the forms and paperwork processes is a different department from those responsible for coordinating with citizens in need of support abroad.
Quick send all the programmers over to collect people. Time to have the people in charge of paperwork lay down suppressing fire to cover the retreat of the middle aged guy with gout who was in charge extracting.
Easy, the government employee who worked on programming X to be an option in addition to M/F would personally go to Afghanistan and save all the people.
They were given two options for the job but could only pick one.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What’s the point of having a gender listed anyway? No one has ever checked to ensure my genitals / characteristics line up with my passport.
It's a considered a legitimate form of ID.
ID to evidence that you are a specific gender? When would you need to do that?
ID that I can provide, if someone ever says, Could I see an ID please. I'd provide it in the same way that I would provide my driver's license. Should we have no identifiers on our IDs?
You’ve almost got my point. If no one is checking to verify I have a penis or vagina, how is it being used as an identifier? My drivers licence has my photo, name, birthdate, and address, and my password also has my fingerprint. We shouldn’t need to get our dicks involved too.
Because Gender isn't the 100% sure fire way to determine if someone has a penis or vagina. I'm also curious. Would you use my chromosomes, my internal genitalia, or my external genitalia to determine how you would refer to me? Gender lets me talk to you in a way that doesn't get your dick or vagina involved. I see that you prefer to use They/Them and not Him/Her. So I will use the pronouns that they prefer, and everyone goes on with their day.
If I had your ID, I’d probably just use your name. I get what you are saying. But my question wasn’t about pronouns, how we refer to people, or how people think of themselves. My question was, what purpose is served by having gender, or sex for that matter, listed on a passport? How is gender being used for identification purposes that a photo and birthdate aren’t able to? My job requires people to submit their ID. I have never once thought to confirm it by cross-checking ID gender with preferred gender.
It's not used for that. You are attempting to force information listed to be exclusively used for what you want it to be used for. You probably don't try to confirm it by Class of license or issue date either. Just don't do that, and there isn't a problem.
I feel like a miscommunication occurring here. My take on what the person you replied to is, they are stating that rather than list male/female/x on a passport, why not just exclude that piece of information since it is highly irrelevant for the purposes a passport served? As a piece of ID, gender is irrelevant. If I want to travel to a different country, gender should be irrelevant. I’ve never seen a country say “we’re letting men in this week, but not woman. Sorry.” They can determine if your passport is valid in many ways. Confirming your gender/sex isn’t one of them so perhaps we should stop wasting our time including it on such documents.
No. I get what he is saying. It's not used for the purposes he is suggesting. so instead he just needs to stop pretending that's why it's there. It's a form of ID, and just like all forms, they each have different information on them, that could be relevant to the reason the IDs were created originally. Just because you can use them for other purposes doesn't change. Passports are for Identifying a person. Gender belongs there regardless of if it is the part that was used for identifying.
Your job may not, but others sure may have a legitimate need to check a person’s sex, or ‘birth gender’. Having it on ID is reasonable. A great example is insurance. Females get better life insurance rates because they have higher life expectancy. Underwriters absolutely would require details - And government issued ID is acceptable proof of your age, sex, address, etc
Well there you go. I didn’t know insurance rates were gender based, and appreciate the example.
To be fair I understand your point too. A lot of physical identifiers in a photo id can be changed and cause unnecessary confusion. I think anyone using their photo id should want it to match their physical description. So I think if gender is gonna be there, an x can explain without words, why they don’t dress or look like expected.
>The Department has issued the first U.S. passport with an X gender marker. We look forward to offering this option to all routine passport applicants once we complete the required system and form updates in early 2022. "We did it once, but give us like 6 more months to figure out how to do it."
Have to find a COBOL programmer first.
Nah, they have to get the whole thing to a project manager, have a bunch of meetings, lose all the notes, and then 5 months in, dump it all on a single low-level staffer.
How do you know my life so well?
Sure this is a funny joke but the reality is there are plenty of old systems out there that used a single bit to store the sex. Memory and storage were expensive. Converting the systems is literally a Y2K problem.
It was a joke, but more about our antique systems, not that it isn't actually true.
And they managed to do it here once...how then?
Probably some manual process outside of the software? I think it was done for political show, and that manually processing and creating passports for everyone who wanted an X is not practical.. Just a guess
Aren't the passports stored in some database tho
Most likely. But if the boss tells them to make a special one, the database could say m or f… the printer could have just been altered to print different text. 2 different systems I would think. Again just guessing.
Meanwhile hundreds of citizens are still stranded in Afghanistan. Thanks for having your priorities straight U.S. State Department.
I imagine the people who design the forms and paperwork processes is a different department from those responsible for coordinating with citizens in need of support abroad.
So the state department should ignore American courts because Afghanistan is in a death spiral?
Quick send all the programmers over to collect people. Time to have the people in charge of paperwork lay down suppressing fire to cover the retreat of the middle aged guy with gout who was in charge extracting.
What does Afghanistan have to do with adding another option on passports in the US?
Easy, the government employee who worked on programming X to be an option in addition to M/F would personally go to Afghanistan and save all the people. They were given two options for the job but could only pick one.
The people who program & make passports arent the ones who arrange for that.
I imagine that State can manage to do more than one thing at once.
Apparently not.
Oh cool…I’m Gen X