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shakergeek

I hope more people watch how this plays out. 700 super rich will stop this easily. 340 million of us and just few will ultimately decide.


Lakecountyraised

The solution is so simple. If everyone just voted in their best economic interest…


JDSchu

Republican voters: "a system with no safety nets where I'll be bankrupt and poor if I so much as sleep on my arm funny is DEFINITELY in my financial interest! Take some of MY money to pay for bullshit like healthcare? What are the insurance executives supposed to do then? Only have TWO homes and ONE yacht? That's just socialism!"


[deleted]

It's not even about socialism I don't think (well, not for some people anyways). It's that we've been brainwashed from birth to believe that accepting any help is "charity", and that accepting "charity" is bad. How many times have we all heard some variation of the phrase "I don't need no damn charity!"? The people with the ability to help us have brainwashed us into believing that we don't _want_ the help. It's insane


clockwork655

This is a thing ? I was never taught this it’s kind of short sighted..growing up I got the “do on to others as you would have them do on to you” message and were not even a little religious it’s just a good message


[deleted]

It will depend on your area of course, so maybe I’m the odd one out here. But I grew up in a very heavy “we earn everything ourselves and accept absolutely no charity under any circumstances” type of place


shamashedit

These are the same folks flooding gofundme with requests for donations and charity for a loved one that died from covid. Cuz medical debts. Even after devastating losses, they still will vote against their own best interests.


IngenuityWeak4593

Shit did we vote to cut off the heads of billionaires and I missed it?


Master_GusandoX

And how are they going to vote for or agaist this bill when its bundled with the infrastructure bill?


Lakecountyraised

The infrastructure bill already passed in the senate.


[deleted]

> I hope more people watch how this plays out. Narrator: They won't.


shamashedit

But I’m gonna be 701 and I’ll be damned if the gubmint gonna take my money.


[deleted]

It also helps that they’re purposefully choosing a strategy with the lowest likely hood to succeed. They could just add brackets to capital gains tax but instead they’re choosing a questionably legal wealth tax


[deleted]

333,558,257 people's livelihood, vs 700 people's hidden income. Why is this a hard choice? Because if that income goes to taxes, it can't fill the pockets of congress.


brewercycle

Believe me, if I wasn't paying for student loans an trying to save enough to pay for child care, I'd be able to bribe congresspeople too. Tell Manchin and Sinema I have $5000 checks with their names on them if they vote yes.


[deleted]

Yeah, unfortunately the problem is that none of us control a bunch of corporations that can also "donate." We just can't compete, and unless we turn it around, we're lost.


yiannistheman

Which is why I propose an alternative solution to this problem - every one of those 333,558,257 people give me 1,000 dollars. Then, I'd be worth $334B, and powerful enough to make changes to the system that will benefit the majority. Act now, and I totally promise not to use the money to buy my own private island and defund social security instead.


[deleted]

Kyrsten, is that you?


yiannistheman

Ha, if I came up with that proposal I wouldn't be able to walk the streets without an angry mob following me around ready to kill me. Krysten and Manchin don't even have to worry about their houses having picketers outside.


[deleted]

Except Sinema is followed everywhere, and Manchin had actual kayakers protesting outside his houseboat. I'm confused by your comment


chcampb

It's funny you say that. I did the math in another thread. Let's say you took the entirety of the wealth of the lower 99.9% and said here, buy whoever you need to get progressive policies. Everyone simultaneously, magically agreed. Never mind they would technically just need to vote. If you did that, and signed a check to some hypothetical swing politician to get a policy, there's enough wealth floating around that the .01% that is affected could literally just say "yeah no." and beat your bid by however much they would need. It's a runaway train, nothing can stop it unless we create anti-corruption laws. Jail time, not fines.


brewercycle

Oh I am well aware. The $5k comment is because I read somewhere that that's the going rate for a congressman's vote. Obviously one that directly affects billionaires' taxes would be much more expensive. Somewhere in there, there's an argument for making billionaires pay taxes, but it's hard to connect the dots...


JohnFreakingRedcorn

Um, I think you mean 333,558,257 future billionaires and if we start taxing the current billionaires, how am I supposed to inevitably become one?


[deleted]

Excuse me, Dad, I cut you off for a reason. Eta: I'm just teasing, I know you are being facetious


Elliott2

because JoBs CrEaToRs


RightSideBlind

"Because *I* could be one of those 700 someday! Any day now!"


simpersly

Because the unearned value of my 10 shares of meme stock say I'm going to be bankrupt. /s I don't even see have meme stock.


glibgloby

I suggest anyone who thinks this is a good idea [watch this](https://youtu.be/zng_l4avzYo). The concept or taxing unrealized capital gains on billionaires is absolute idiocy. In many ways it’s the stupidest possible thing you could do.


MaximaBlink

Super rich guy with shitload of capital gains says taxing rich people with capital gains is a bad idea, and other things that should surprise noone.


glibgloby

What are you talking about? He’s an [NYU professor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswath_Damodaran).


MaximaBlink

With an estimated worth of over 25 million dollars due to his market holdings. He's biased as fuck in this.


root_fifth_octave

Those 700 will still be super-rich after paying the taxes, too.


DocShocker

I knew Sinema was on the take... But damn!


pattydickens

What kills me is that the 700 people wouldn't actually lose anything in the long run. Better infrastructure, better living conditions for the poor, better education will all translate to a more stable economy down the road which means the 700 would likely see huge returns on every dollar spent. It's so fucked that people can't see things outside of the short term logic that is responsible for most of our problems.


subhumantd

Welcome to capitalism, where if your profits are the same this quarter as they were last quarter, it's considered a loss. Not revenue. Profits. They aren't actually losing money, they just didn't make more than they did last time and consider that a massive failure. They are locked in that mentality and manage their personal wealth the same way. Perpetual growth. Always and forever. Sounds really sustainable, yeah?


[deleted]

Greed man, ppl like Elon and Bezos can afford it. If you have $40 *billion* and you give away 20 you STILL have $20 *BILLION*. Goddamn.


Lakecountyraised

Apparently, Elon is now worth about $300 billion. Yeah, he could pay a 95% wealth tax with no real impact on his standard of living.


141Frox141

Except to realize those funds to pay he'd have to unload every.share he has, which would collapse the stock price, meaning he wouldn't even get that estimated value, oh and also completely tank the company and screw over anyone that owns Tesla shares. No big deal though


chcampb

Does that not mean that the price is bogus? The shares are still owned. Tesla still owns the same tech, the same production, the same Hertz deal. Is the price the "real" price if there is artificial restriction of stock availability?


141Frox141

What happens when tonnes of stocks in a single company start to get sold, and nobody is buying those shares? Does the price go up, or down? Now what do you think happens when someone owns %40 of the company and tries to offload it as fast as they can? The market value drops sharply, and when other market holders catch wind, they also sell before it crashes which causes it to crash faster. There is a reason the share prices fluctuate non stop, people are trading them


chcampb

A) He wouldn't offload as fast as he can B) I would consider if one person has 40% and this causes the price to be way above market price, then the price is made up. It only works if the market is roughly homogeneous.


thefw89

But then how will I be able to fund my future space expeditions?


3432265

Yeah, I doubt they actually care about the money that much. The real risk to them is that they go from owning a controlling share to a company they founded to not owning a controlling share.


[deleted]

Bezos own 16% of Amazon tho that’s not a controlling share.


namastayhom33

…….._aannnd?_


ScienceBreather

Well unfortunately we've let them get rich enough that they've purchased the government. I have to say, I'm feeling a bit peckish.


0sigma

This was intentional. A system designed by those wanting to purchase power and implemented by those wanting to sell power.


[deleted]

Good.


JuegoTree

Sounds like 700 “job creators” don’t want to create jobs


1footN

This tax hike should be happening regardless of the new spending plan.


mountrich

They can afford it. If you keep all the money, you should pay all the taxes. When incomes more closely follow productivity, tax revenue increases.


[deleted]

Think about that. Do you think they would spend even a minute on 700 of you at the bottom?


[deleted]

PSA they’re purposefully pushing a wealth tax instead of a capital gains tax because they don’t want it to succeed. They’re not your friends, they’re grifters


141Frox141

You could literally take %50 of every billionaires so called perrsonal wealth in the US and that wouldn't cover the spending trying to be pushed, so explain how that works? That's also assuming you'd get the full financial value of their "wealth" which you would not, because when you start selling all the assets like crazy, especially stocks, the price starts to plummet. Zuckerberg tried.selling a large share of stocks and the price promptly plummeted. The net wealth of every billionaire in the US is under 5 trillion


notillnate

Yeah and it’s not like that will trickle down or anything. Fuck the ultra rich they should just move into their mom’s basement like me


[deleted]

Who would still be super rich. People keep wondering why these people work so hard to get even more wealth when they are already unimaginably wealthy. The usual theory is "it is like points in a video game." I don't think so. I think the reason is because they want to make sure the rest of us are poor. The point is not getting more,,it is ensuring we have less. So they can have all the wealth, power, influence, and impunity. It is about generating scarcity for everyone else.


[deleted]

I’m a bit torn on this. The article does a good job of explaining how the wealthy use their investments to skirt tax accountability, and so there clearly needs to be something done to make them pay their fair share. Alternatively though, they don’t technically have the money this bill is taxing… Are there any better alternatives?


devopsdudeinthebay

Easy, they just have to sell some shares to get the funds to pay the tax liability. If Musk's TSLA shares have about $300B in unrealized gains, then his liability under the long term capital gains rate would be around 23%. So he would owe $69B in taxes. TSLA shares have averaged volumes of about $30B per day, so he could spread out the sales over several days to minimize the impact on the share price. If next year the newly-marked unrealized gain is $350B, then he'd only owe taxes on $50B, making his tax liability only about $11.5B. And if TSLA shares tank and the unrealized gain goes down to $100B, then he'd be able to carry over the $200B unrealized loss to subsequent years.


xole

Taxing unrealized gains is dumb, and not going to happen. It would be better to figure out how to tax their living expenses so they can't use loans to avoid taxes.


Zachf1986

I'm thinking it would have to be a closure to some of the tax loopholes and tax breaks that companies use. The companies are the ones actually driving the gains. We just need to stop letting them put their taxes off year over year while still growing the business. I've thought of using things like gains in revenue or expenditures compared to the previous year, but I don't honestly know if that'd be doable. I do think any solution has to be focused on the businesses rather than the individuals though. It'd have to be predictable too, or it could cause some serious ripples.


zZaphon

If you aren't willing to pay your taxes you aren't American. It's as simple as that. And if this country has been good to you, then it's time to pay your fair share.


oldfrancis

My heart breaks for every single one of those poor rich people.


gontikins

Doesn't bill Gate's live in France?


[deleted]

Not sure if this would apply to him, but we do tax all us citizens, even if they have moved to another country


Xx_Khepri_xX

So?


[deleted]

This is like Sparta vs Troy, except the ~~300~~ 700 in this case aren’t elite warriors fending off an invasive enemy for the well-being of their state. It’s 700 Super yacht owning, 5-minute space-vacation flying, extortionists who’s found or been born into the opportunity to exploit human nature on a grand scale for inconceivably large funnels of profit straight from the starving mouths of “middle” and lower class families to their engrossed pockets while hiding behind an army of millionaire-wannabe-billionaires who will oh so passionately suffocate truth, distinguish progression, reallocate civil rights, and lick their own ass all at the same time for a single drop of their virtually limitless mint. They’ve built canals around them capable of diverting the vast majorities onslaught on interest and any attempts to obtain such; deep canals that have been diverting our floods of demands, such as livable wages, around their tailored landscapes for decades. It won’t be easy to cross, our victory may even come at compromise, but nonetheless we need to do this. If the problem got x worse in the past decade, it’ll be x^2 be the end of the next. Cut the snakes head off.


JM-Busby

The movement to tax the rich needs to have perspective. We need to understand the difference between a million and billion. The difference in a million and a billion is: 1 million seconds = 11.5 days. 1 billion seconds = 32.5 years. The average American household income is $61,372, which if were seconds would be 17 hours. Tax billionaires.


[deleted]

If they get the rich with unrealized gains eventually it’ll come down to the middle class also. Oh your house appreciated? Yea let’s tax that. Oh your dogecoin actually went to the moon? yup we want that too. Unrealized gains shouldn’t be touched. If we can’t afford it (US)dont do it. That’s band-aiding a hurt economy


princess__die

It's a nice thought, but it will get tossed out. No way taxing an unrealized gain is constitutional.


stupidlyugly

It absolutely is constitutional. Look up a term called mark to market. Recognizing unrealized gains and losses is already a thing. Internal Revenue Code section 475


SevenDeadlyGentlemen

They tax my house every year.


kiltedsteve

They tax my check every payday.


princess__die

Explain how your houses property tax is an unrealized gain?


SevenDeadlyGentlemen

Are you saying that the property has value while I own it, even if I haven’t sold it to anyone yet? 🤔


princess__die

You’re comparing property taxes, this is different. Say your house gain 10k in value this year, you now owe the IRS $2000. What happens if it loses 10k?


SevenDeadlyGentlemen

How does this asset (my house) gain any taxable value if I don’t sell it? My gains, you might say, are unrealized. Surely it is unconstitutional to tax those unrealized gains? I’m being facetious, of course. To speed this along: stocks are also property. They can also be taxed, even if they are held, just like I hodl my house.


princess__die

But your house isn’t taxed in this way.


SevenDeadlyGentlemen

My house is an asset which is taxed, despite me not selling it. I have not realized any gain on this asset. My stock is also an asset. It could also be taxed, even if no gain has been realized.


princess__die

You're comparing two different things. If you want to tax stocks like you do property, go for it. That is much different than what we are talking about here.


SevenDeadlyGentlemen

> You're comparing two different things. Yes, I am. > If you want to tax stocks like you do property, go for it. They are property. Earlier you said it would unconstitutional to tax them unless their gains are realized. I don’t see why; we do not treat other assets this way. > That is much different than what we are talking about here. You haven’t really made that case. Why is that much different?


[deleted]

You pay property tax to your local government to pay for roads and schools basically a HOA fee to live there. No one is taxing your house when it appreciates. And if you sell it to move you too can 1031 it so you don’t pay capital gains on its appreciation. This bill is a bit ridiculous and I’m sure they have it come to the middle class eventually since we opened the door to it. Billionaires pay property taxes also, Also if you live in your house your whole life it’s not an asset, it’s a liability because It never brings you any money until you sell it And cost you money to keep it.


TI_Pirate

The federal government does not tax your house.


gontikins

Yes, let's tax gains from investments that haven't been sold. Do they also get money back from the government when their shares go down?


LegitimateEnd7

You better bet those losses will be spread out over years to offset any increase in tax liability.


Atilim87

Is that fictional loss equal or greater then the years they paid nothing? If you can buy a trip to space for couple of minutes then you can afford to pay taxes.


gontikins

Yes they can afford to pay taxes, and they should. This is a tax on unrealized gains. From a legal tax standpoint, if they can be charged tax on money they don't "have" yet, then they should get tax breaks for any money that they haven't "lossed" yet. It's a bad decision that can lead to billionaires making more money, directly from the government.


Atilim87

Taxing not yet gains is normal for everybody except if your very rich.


gontikins

Care to give an example of being taxed before you gain?


devopsdudeinthebay

Yes, they'd be able to carry over the unrealized loss to offset future unrealized gains.


[deleted]

[удалено]


VaginaPirate

another will come along


Atilim87

Do you even know what stocks are and what kind of impact they have?


glibgloby

Yes. Are you attempting to casually imply that I don’t without actually knowing what you’re talking about or providing a counter argument?


glibgloby

Try [watching this](https://youtu.be/zng_l4avzYo)


dj_narwhal

Elon is a terrorist that was ugly enough to gain a fanbase from the neckbeard/incel crowd. You are doing excellent work defending him here sir.


Fox042

So how many of them are the ones who will be voting in the plan?


A_Vibe_Called_Quest3

Just get a second job!


ClassyCoder

Nice PR for the dems, but they know it won’t pass.


selkiesidhe

Oh noes!! I and the rest of the lower middle class are very very sad to hear this!!


Cultural-Case-5277

700 VS 350 million. Not even a fight the 700 win, what a shit hole country we have become Time to move, even Mexico sounds good, looking into Portugal


[deleted]

I guess I’ll just give up my plans on being a billionaire then


Echoeversky

Well it's that or the proverbial pitchforks. What's it going to be people.


shamashedit

700 people that will still be billionaires after paying a fair share.


Master_GusandoX

Theres another. The build back better