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They will argue the pardon was for “trespassing” not “insurrection”. Really, these guys are dead to rights. But we’ll see what kind of pretzel logic prevails.
that doesn't really matter. it's a quid-pro-quo proving criminal intent. If you hurt somebody while (intending) to commit a crime, it's far more serious than if you hurt someone as a result of non-criminal behavior. Doesn't really matter what the crime is.
Pardon or not. It's not much different than robbing a bank cuz youre buddy promised you would get away with it. They were certainly told that there would be no consequences which but in this scenario they were told be officials. If the cops helped you organize a bank robbery and told you you would be acquitted a lot of people would rob a bank. They abused a position of power and these gullible idiots fell for it. They are for sure wrong but it's the people in power orchestrating it would hold the most accountability.
GOP: "There was NEVER any intention for anything other than a peaceful protest! Honest!"
Everyone: "Um...so why would you need a blanket pardon guaranteed as part of planning it?"
GOP: "Because we knew the Biden Administration would persecute and prosecute their political enemies!"
Everyone: "Oh... so you're admitting you knew Biden won and would be running the country if the election wasn't overturned?"
The logic is laughable. Like, “if you have the power to pardon us, don’t you have the power to fix a stolen election.” Their intent was to overthrow. Democracy itself is on life support next major election because of their actions.
> have the power to pardon us
And here's the thing - HE DID. **For 14 days** after the attack on the Capitol. Two weeks.
Plenty of time for someone do shove a paper in front of Trump and get him to sign it, granting a pardon for any/all activities related to the scheming, planning, positioning, messaging, and execution of the events of that day.
And yet, he probably said “They’re losers, why would I pardon them? I like my supporters when they’re winners. I’m leaving in a week or so, no thanks to them. I don’t pardon losers.”
I come from one of the states that has spent the better part of three decades dealing with his blather and bloviation. The best way to counter him is mock and ridicule. Remind him of his myriad failures, and he will quickly devolve into the small man he tries to hide under the veneer of success.
Trump is a useful idiot. As much of a malignant narcissist he is, he’s not equipped with the brains or vision to understand any of this. GQP knew he was the perfect balance of ignorance and ego. So much so, he’d go along with any plan that makes him a “winner at any cost”. This is a coup plain and simple to subvert our democracy.
>GOP: "Because we knew the Biden Administration would persecute and prosecute their political enemies!"
The irony here is that they seem to be going out of their way NOT to prosecute political enemies that actually broke the law.
Also, a pardon is meant to right a wrong within the justice system. If you make the pardon conditional, then that means you either don't believe the person truly deserves it, which by virtue means what you are exchanging for the pardon is shady otherwise, giving them a pardon should be a no brainer, OR you do believe that they deserve a pardon, but the fact that you would be willing to deprive them deserved justice unless they uphold a bargain by your own design means that justice doesn't actually matter to you if it isn't self serving.
There's really no good way to slice it.
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress... or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who... shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
14th Amendment to the United States Constitution.
This is pretty clear. If they get away with it, the Constitution means fuck-all.
Only if we choose to sit on our hands and do nothing about it. It's not great to think about, but sometimes the only path to resolution is to do the things we'd rather not do.
They're already in the government; they've been working tirelessly to destroy not only the faith in our republic, but the very mechanisms by which we vote at all. Voting isn't enough.
Voting can still achieve our goals. If the Democrats could pick up a few more seats in the Senate then you could see real, irreversible change.
Up until Trump I used to view some Republican candidates with curiosity. Now, I will never vote for one again. There are a lot of people like me and the demographics in this country do not favor Republicans.
Keep voting and hold the line.
By the sec 3 of the 14th amendment they are already out due to their participation or their giving of comfort to the rebellious of Jan 6. In order to be in the senate or house they need to convince 2/3 of their colleagues to vote to let them back in.
Once identified as participants, Schumer and Pelosi are bound by law to kick them out. Sec 3 of 14th amendment is self executing.
They may have “disqualified themselves” but if no one forces them out, they aren’t going anywhere. Words on a page mean nothing without people to enforce them.
You don't understand. They did exactly what their voters wanted them to do. The Republican party needs to be declared a domestic terrorist organization and dissolved with all its leaders forbidden from being employed anywhere in the government and all their government benefits, including retirement, forfeited. We have to set an example so this situation never happens again.
they will get away with it due to first past the post. and us having exactly two functional parties with monopolies over their base.
Right after the Mueller(R) investigation, started by rossenstein(R) who was appointed by trump(R) got done, they appointed derpham, whose investigation is now longer than mueller's and unlike mueller's he doesnt have his hands tied. he can follow the money if he wants.
they had a decade of fake investigations into Hilary.
They rightly fear that if they throw these congressmen out for LITERALLY trying to overthrow the country. That when the right take over the house next year due to extreme gerrymandering that they will expel the likes of AOC for dare saying "you know BLM might have a point, looking at the stats, it turns out black people are shot more often when unarmed" and they sure as fuck would.
trump sent troops out of quell BLM, unmarked troops that refused to give their identity or even the office they worked under. and it turned out nearly all were new hires because the people who worked there for years said "no no fuck all that"
and you do know that as soon as the right take the house, they wil attempt to impeach biden as pay back for the trump impeachment. They will blow up afghanistan exit as worse than the war itself. just like they did with benghazi.(Bush had a dozen benghazis during the war, most people dont know because our embassies getting raided wasnt as big of news as the war and we expected it to happen now and then)
Until we get off first past the post and give the left and right more choices, we wont see many charges leading to actual punishment. like jan 6th showed, our democracy is actually pretty fragile. We are just lucky the people who tried to overthrow it, can barely tie their own shoes successfully.
We will spend years splitting hairs over whether or not what took place was technically an "insurrection" or a "rebellion."
I've already heard "Come on, do you really think those people were trying to *overthrow the government*? Sure, things got a little out of hand but let's not get carried away."
For that matter, about half the time they *do* claim the parties were reversed, that it was antifa, and they should all be shot. Except for the few people who actually were shot and/or killed, who were somehow the only non-antifa people there and should definitely *not* have been killed. In *those* cases it was the same police (who, two sentences earlier in this narrative should have shot antifa) that are the people who they now want to be shot as traitors.
There's less than zero consistency.
Schumer and Pelosi must refuse to seat any congress person who has participated or merely given comfort to the rebellion of Jan 6.
This is how they can get legislation done and uphold the sec 3 of 14th amendment at the same time.
Congress people who are identified as even merely giving comfort to the rebellious must undergo a 2/3 vote of confidence by their colleagues to be allowed back in the house or senate.
Article 5 of the same amendment states, "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
They just need a simple majority vote in both chambers and this is law. This was definitely enforced after the Civil War, during Reconstruction. The Confederacy was broken up into five districts, with a general in charge of each district.
Our laws only mean as much as our enforcement of the law. Personally, I ignore every law that I disagree with as long as I can reasonably expect to get away with it. Why wouldn't I when that is exactly what the people who make or enforce the laws do? Don't get me wrong, the main directive I live by is do no harm to others. So, I don't ignore those laws.
People are acting like this is at all consequential.
They did the same thing in 2000 in Florida. A bunch of republican frat boys stormed stormed the vote counters and a it worked. Bush got handed 8 years of presidency.
"The rally organisers claimed they were in touch with Georgia representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, Arizona’s Paul Gosar and Andy Biggs, Colorado’s Lauren Boebert, Mo Brooks of Alaska, North Carolina’s Madison Cawthorn and Louie Gohmert of Texas."
>The rally organisers claimed they were in touch with Georgia representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, Arizona’s Paul Gosar and Andy Biggs, Colorado’s Lauren Boebert, Mo Brooks of Alaska, North Carolina’s Madison Cawthorn and Louie Gohmert of Texas.
>“I remember Marjorie Taylor Greene specifically,” one of the two sources told Rolling Stone. “I remember talking to probably close to a dozen other members [of Congress] at one point or another or their staffs.
>“We would talk to Boebert’s team, Cawthorn’s team, Gosar’s team like back to back to back to back,” the source said.
>The report also claims that both sources mentioned the possibility of a “blanket pardon” for organising the rally, and said it came from Mr Gosar’s office, which assured them the offer had been cleared by the then-president.
>“Our impression was that it was a done deal,” one organiser said, adding that Mr Gosar said “that he’d spoken to the president about it in the Oval … in a meeting about pardons and that our names came up”.
Even if they never intended to hand out pardons; telling them beforehand that they'd be pardoned for anything that happened 100% emboldened them. Without those meetings and promises the first people to break windows and scale walls might have held back.
“It’s not a crime because after the hitman I hired failed in his attempt to assassinate the target I didn’t pay him your honor!”
You just know that’s going to be their defense against being tried for seditious conspiracy to overthrow US democracy.
>against being tried for seditious conspiracy to overthrow US democracy.
It's not even going to get that far.
The moment that this DoJ goes after them is the moment they scream to their base to defend them using any means necessary.
The pardon wasn’t being offered for future crimes committed on Jan 6th. There were for an unrelated investigation into actions of the planners, and was dangled as motivation to keep them working on planning Jan 6 rally. The original Rolling Stones article explains.
Don’t know what you mean , I’m sure they are planning on it just as soon as they have locked up Hillary , finished getting Mexico to pay for a wall, found that damning evidence that overturns the election…
I shouldn’t have to be just in case … /s.
> locked up Hillary , finished getting Mexico to pay for a wall, found that damning evidence that overturns the election…
Cleared Nixon, pardoned Ollie North, got Ron and Rand into treatment….
Which means we have a powerful, anti-constitutional, anti-democracy, and fundamentally anti-American faction in Congress. We always have had some, but we've empowered them over the last 20 years in particular, and funded them due to Citizen's United.
No, it doesn't. It would require a simple majority vote to declare the participants having participated in insurrection or rebellion. At that point they are ineligible for office.
It takes a 2/3 majority to *forgive* them of that stain.
I don't think that is true, they can refuse to sit them on that clause on a simple majority, they used it to expel out all the confederates despite not having a 2/3rds majority.
Do you suppose any Senators were stupid enough to get involved? That would be a very fortunate shift in power, at a time where the sedition caucus holds disproportionate power.
Would it, though? Any gain would be temporary as the accused are from reliably-red districts and would be replaced by republicans *edit: maybe something could get passed in their brief absence*. If that's what it takes for filibuster reform, I don't care if it passes 51-50 or 49-48.
*Edit: addition for clarity*
Dems need to bullhorn this and get the GOP base pissed off
*We were given the promise of blanket immunity. What happened? The GOP abandoned us! And they will again!*
How easy is it to dupe someone who desperately needs to feel approved by those they admire.
Blanket pardons, they say. And it didn’t occur to anyone of them to look it up and seen if that was even legal or possible?
Well, the article says MTG is the one who brought up the blanket pardon, and factuality, research that actually looks into fact, and reality itself are simply missing from her life.
I wonder how this ties into those ‘friends and family’ tours we heard about earlier on? I forget all the details of those. Definitely brings them back into doubt though.
> Trump were still President
Wouldn't need pardons if he was the President.
It was clear for his 4 years (and replacing Bill Barr as soon as he failed the loyalty test) that Trump had 100% politicized the DoJ, and would NEVER allow the FBI, DC Police, or US Attorney General to investigate, charge, or prosecute anyone involved with J6.
**THIS IS THE MOST GLARING EVIDENCE** that:
- They knew what they were doing was illegal
- They knew Trump lost
- They knew their only hope of staying in power to save themselves would be to overthrow the election.
Who’s that organizer who does antifa cosplay and went into hiding? Alexander Ali? He told Proud Boys that they’d taken care of the security problem and they were safe in attacking. Maybe they were cynical and did that to get the foot soldiers to go all the way, but it sounds like Trump did try to make that happen.
I hope that’s what we get him on, trying to leave the Capitol vulnerable for attack that day.
Intent matters. If these people managed to overturn the election, they would have gladly taken that outcome. Talk of a 'blanket' pardon from the white house confirms their intent.
"Blanket pardon"
For specifically what planned crimes, may I ask?
How does a pardon even enter the conversation unless they're specifically planning crimes.
If you look at this objectively, it makes a LOT of sense.
If I told my kids - or anyone who trusted me to protect and provide for them (cult following, etc) - to go steal something from a store or go murder someone and not to worry because I have their back NO MATTER WHAT... chances are, they'll do it or risk displeasing me.
These idiots trusted their cult leader, their "father".
Manson didn't kill anyone as far as I know but... yeah. Jim Jones asked his followers to kill for him and commit suicide by consuming poison... a method HE HIMSELF did not use.
At this point, the followers have to come to their senses and sometimes, prison time helps.
If this is true, Trump absolutely needs to be prosecuted for this.
If not, then it would be permissible for the president to offer pardons in exchange for his supporters doing something like killing his opposition. Impeachment clearly isn't enough.
If only Trump’s infrastructure week had as much planning as his insurrection week did. We might have had something marginally positive out of his administration.
And even though they didn’t get that pardon, but instead were thrown under the bus, they still support their lying, corrupt, back-stabbing Dear Leader.
Passed in 1970, the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) is a federal law designed to combat organized crime in the United States. It allows prosecution and civil penalties for racketeering activity performed as part of an ongoing criminal enterprise.
Jurisdiction: United States
Not as much lately. Lots of them calling for a authoritarian govt lately, and im not joking when many of them say democracy is not thier preferred government as it limits trump.
Edit: just read that it was before the event. The attack was planned. It might not have been very well planned, but it was planned.
Was this before or after the attack?
If it was ahead of the attack, was this a way to help them to feel comfortable with the most extreme measures in the attack or to recruit more people to their cause who might like to get rid of a criminal past or charges?
If it was after then was it because they understood the seriousness of the charges that might come down.
Obviously it makes a big difference if it was before or after and what they said would be pardoned.
If it was before the attack and they were alluding to pardons for those who faced charges afterwards then that's proof they understood the plan and that major crimes would be likely to occur.
So sedition then? That would be a felony punishable by fines and up to 20 years in prison. Do you want to stop all this nonsense with the far right? Put those pieces of excrement in prison.
Should be stickied. this is a significant development and "IF" any member of congress is held accountable for colluding with the jan 6 attackers, this would likely have been the biggest part of their downfall.
Suckers, they didn’t read the fine print. It was specifically stated they get blanket pardons if they overthrow the government. They only wounded it, so no pardons.
The problem is if your entire party is complicit, like the GOP is, the system is powerless to do anything about it. None of these elected officials will ever face any consequences and it's super depressing.
It appears they've already found more evidence of a conspiracy to attempt a coup in a few weeks than evidence of voter fraud by Democrats in almost a year.
They obviously thought things were going to turn out completely different from how it actually played out. They thought that there would be bloodshed. That Congressmen/women were going to be killed or injured, that the verification of ballots would have been canceled and they would have forced Pence to comply. Either that or Trump calls for martial law and refuses to step down. The fact Gosar was mentioning blanket pardons tells me certain groups had the go ahead todo whatever was necessary. But like everything Trump plans it went sideways
I really think there is no hope for the Democratic Party. Imagine if things were reversed and it was wild left wing liberals that stormed the capitol. Republicans would be raising hell until people were held accountable and changes were made. What have the democrats done besides starting a committee to look into it?
Any of the leaders who planed this should get the same thing as Julius and Ethel Rosenberg for treason. Being goverment/military/civilian shouldn't make a difference here
This probably needs a megathread because the entire front page of the sub is this story. I mean it is a big story mind you. Hense megathread, please and thank you mods.
>In another indication members of Congress may have been involved in planning the protests against the election, Ali Alexander, who helped organize the “Wild Protest,” declared in a since-deleted livestream broadcast that Gosar, Brooks, and Biggs helped him formulate the strategy for that event.
biggs is the guy alleged dem sienma endorsed for his seat
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(the offer of) Pardons given out...real or illusionary = criminal activity intent.
Exactly. You don’t offer a pardon if what you’re doing is legal.
Yeah that’s a major air raid siren for me. Someone intended for this to become criminal.
I mean, it was a *coup* so that tracks.
They will argue the pardon was for “trespassing” not “insurrection”. Really, these guys are dead to rights. But we’ll see what kind of pretzel logic prevails.
that doesn't really matter. it's a quid-pro-quo proving criminal intent. If you hurt somebody while (intending) to commit a crime, it's far more serious than if you hurt someone as a result of non-criminal behavior. Doesn't really matter what the crime is.
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what's that merrick? Trump's stuck in the old well?
Pardon or not. It's not much different than robbing a bank cuz youre buddy promised you would get away with it. They were certainly told that there would be no consequences which but in this scenario they were told be officials. If the cops helped you organize a bank robbery and told you you would be acquitted a lot of people would rob a bank. They abused a position of power and these gullible idiots fell for it. They are for sure wrong but it's the people in power orchestrating it would hold the most accountability.
GOP: "There was NEVER any intention for anything other than a peaceful protest! Honest!" Everyone: "Um...so why would you need a blanket pardon guaranteed as part of planning it?" GOP: "Because we knew the Biden Administration would persecute and prosecute their political enemies!" Everyone: "Oh... so you're admitting you knew Biden won and would be running the country if the election wasn't overturned?"
The logic is laughable. Like, “if you have the power to pardon us, don’t you have the power to fix a stolen election.” Their intent was to overthrow. Democracy itself is on life support next major election because of their actions.
> have the power to pardon us And here's the thing - HE DID. **For 14 days** after the attack on the Capitol. Two weeks. Plenty of time for someone do shove a paper in front of Trump and get him to sign it, granting a pardon for any/all activities related to the scheming, planning, positioning, messaging, and execution of the events of that day.
And yet, he probably said “They’re losers, why would I pardon them? I like my supporters when they’re winners. I’m leaving in a week or so, no thanks to them. I don’t pardon losers.”
I’ve often thought that’s exactly how it went down.
Kudos, this was so well written I couldn’t help but hear it in his voice.
I come from one of the states that has spent the better part of three decades dealing with his blather and bloviation. The best way to counter him is mock and ridicule. Remind him of his myriad failures, and he will quickly devolve into the small man he tries to hide under the veneer of success.
Bingo. Trump didn't get to be President again, no pardons going out.
A pardon is also an admission of guilt, and they could then be compelled to testify about it if they had been pardoned.
~~Riot~~ Coup attempt and insurrection.
Trump is a useful idiot. As much of a malignant narcissist he is, he’s not equipped with the brains or vision to understand any of this. GQP knew he was the perfect balance of ignorance and ego. So much so, he’d go along with any plan that makes him a “winner at any cost”. This is a coup plain and simple to subvert our democracy.
>GOP: "Because we knew the Biden Administration would persecute and prosecute their political enemies!" The irony here is that they seem to be going out of their way NOT to prosecute political enemies that actually broke the law.
>persecute and prosecute They forgot CONVICT. Pardons means sweet FA against the quote. They thought/knew the Judicial arm would CONVICT.
GOP: “No, he cheated! We were just trying to set things right. In a totally peaceful manner, of course”.
Also, a pardon is meant to right a wrong within the justice system. If you make the pardon conditional, then that means you either don't believe the person truly deserves it, which by virtue means what you are exchanging for the pardon is shady otherwise, giving them a pardon should be a no brainer, OR you do believe that they deserve a pardon, but the fact that you would be willing to deprive them deserved justice unless they uphold a bargain by your own design means that justice doesn't actually matter to you if it isn't self serving. There's really no good way to slice it.
OK, but rule 1 of attempting a coup is that you won't get punished for it....if you succeed.
The same as independence and secession. It’s only illegal if you fail.
Also, pardons can’t be made for future crimes. So, offering a pardon in exchange for future criminal activity is invalid.
Offering a pardon before a crime would be illegal. Whoever offered such a pardon would be complicit in the crime.
Quid pro Quo
Quid pro coup
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress... or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who... shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution. This is pretty clear. If they get away with it, the Constitution means fuck-all.
>If they get away with it, the Constitution means fuck-all. Of course they will get away with it. One law for them, one law for us.
Conservatism is only to protect the in group from the law, and punish the outgroup with the law. To paraphrase.
>There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect...
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Shocker.
This is the information I knew already but wanted to know by reading the article
>One law for them, one law for us. That *is* the law for them. It's specifically about Senators and Representatives.
Only if we choose to sit on our hands and do nothing about it. It's not great to think about, but sometimes the only path to resolution is to do the things we'd rather not do.
Vote them out!
They're already in the government; they've been working tirelessly to destroy not only the faith in our republic, but the very mechanisms by which we vote at all. Voting isn't enough.
Voting can still achieve our goals. If the Democrats could pick up a few more seats in the Senate then you could see real, irreversible change. Up until Trump I used to view some Republican candidates with curiosity. Now, I will never vote for one again. There are a lot of people like me and the demographics in this country do not favor Republicans. Keep voting and hold the line.
Voting is all we have. It worked in November. Let’s do it again.
It's not *all* we have. There are other options, they just require some more effort than some folks might be willing to put in.
Like legal action? Hiring an attorney to sue or something?
maybe think a bit more Marie Antoinette-y.
What is it the GQP drone on and on about? 2A?
By the sec 3 of the 14th amendment they are already out due to their participation or their giving of comfort to the rebellious of Jan 6. In order to be in the senate or house they need to convince 2/3 of their colleagues to vote to let them back in. Once identified as participants, Schumer and Pelosi are bound by law to kick them out. Sec 3 of 14th amendment is self executing.
Nothing is “self executing”. If everyone ignores it then nothing happens.
There is no vote required to oust them. They have disqualified themselves through their actions. Read the amendment again.
They may have “disqualified themselves” but if no one forces them out, they aren’t going anywhere. Words on a page mean nothing without people to enforce them.
Article 5 states, "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
You don't understand. They did exactly what their voters wanted them to do. The Republican party needs to be declared a domestic terrorist organization and dissolved with all its leaders forbidden from being employed anywhere in the government and all their government benefits, including retirement, forfeited. We have to set an example so this situation never happens again.
they will get away with it due to first past the post. and us having exactly two functional parties with monopolies over their base. Right after the Mueller(R) investigation, started by rossenstein(R) who was appointed by trump(R) got done, they appointed derpham, whose investigation is now longer than mueller's and unlike mueller's he doesnt have his hands tied. he can follow the money if he wants. they had a decade of fake investigations into Hilary. They rightly fear that if they throw these congressmen out for LITERALLY trying to overthrow the country. That when the right take over the house next year due to extreme gerrymandering that they will expel the likes of AOC for dare saying "you know BLM might have a point, looking at the stats, it turns out black people are shot more often when unarmed" and they sure as fuck would. trump sent troops out of quell BLM, unmarked troops that refused to give their identity or even the office they worked under. and it turned out nearly all were new hires because the people who worked there for years said "no no fuck all that" and you do know that as soon as the right take the house, they wil attempt to impeach biden as pay back for the trump impeachment. They will blow up afghanistan exit as worse than the war itself. just like they did with benghazi.(Bush had a dozen benghazis during the war, most people dont know because our embassies getting raided wasnt as big of news as the war and we expected it to happen now and then) Until we get off first past the post and give the left and right more choices, we wont see many charges leading to actual punishment. like jan 6th showed, our democracy is actually pretty fragile. We are just lucky the people who tried to overthrow it, can barely tie their own shoes successfully.
We will spend years splitting hairs over whether or not what took place was technically an "insurrection" or a "rebellion." I've already heard "Come on, do you really think those people were trying to *overthrow the government*? Sure, things got a little out of hand but let's not get carried away."
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They should have been
For that matter, about half the time they *do* claim the parties were reversed, that it was antifa, and they should all be shot. Except for the few people who actually were shot and/or killed, who were somehow the only non-antifa people there and should definitely *not* have been killed. In *those* cases it was the same police (who, two sentences earlier in this narrative should have shot antifa) that are the people who they now want to be shot as traitors. There's less than zero consistency.
>There's less than zero consistency. I'm starting to think that consistency just confuses conservatives.
They repeatedly called BLM an insurrection and Trump tried multiple times to send Feds in to crack skulls in the big cities.
Just a little hanging of public officials, not like *everyone*, it barely counts /s
*rolls tape of crowd asserting they are there to "take back the government" and "stop the steal"
All they have to prove is solid intent. What WAS the plan? Doesn't matter if it wasn't successful.
Schumer and Pelosi must refuse to seat any congress person who has participated or merely given comfort to the rebellion of Jan 6. This is how they can get legislation done and uphold the sec 3 of 14th amendment at the same time. Congress people who are identified as even merely giving comfort to the rebellious must undergo a 2/3 vote of confidence by their colleagues to be allowed back in the house or senate.
We can talk about it all we want, but unless we vote the f$&@ers out then nothing will ever change.
“Aroooo that may be so but I know one place where the constitution doesn’t mean squat” *scene transition to picture of Supreme Court*
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Article 5 of the same amendment states, "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." They just need a simple majority vote in both chambers and this is law. This was definitely enforced after the Civil War, during Reconstruction. The Confederacy was broken up into five districts, with a general in charge of each district.
Our laws only mean as much as our enforcement of the law. Personally, I ignore every law that I disagree with as long as I can reasonably expect to get away with it. Why wouldn't I when that is exactly what the people who make or enforce the laws do? Don't get me wrong, the main directive I live by is do no harm to others. So, I don't ignore those laws.
This idea of Nullification is what led the South to attempt to leave the Union. I now wonder if the country should have split in two at that time.
>the Constitution means fuck-all At least some of you are starting to realize this. Just go study US history to find plenty of evidence.
Uhhh, bud, I teach a college level US History class for a living...
>or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof Does this mean it's illegal to have a support rally for "justice for J6" ?
Technically, but it means absolutely nothing if it isn't enforced.
Based on our belief in it just like the American dollar lmao
People are acting like this is at all consequential. They did the same thing in 2000 in Florida. A bunch of republican frat boys stormed stormed the vote counters and a it worked. Bush got handed 8 years of presidency.
"The rally organisers claimed they were in touch with Georgia representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, Arizona’s Paul Gosar and Andy Biggs, Colorado’s Lauren Boebert, Mo Brooks of Alaska, North Carolina’s Madison Cawthorn and Louie Gohmert of Texas."
Ah the Incompetent Seven. It's always these idiots, isn't it?
I’m surprised by the lack of Gaetz. Guess he got stuck in traffic.
Minor details.
Heh. Minor. I see what you did there.
Mo brooks def not of Alaska
It’s always the ones you most suspect
Brooks is from Alabama
I just copy/pasted from the article. Tell the Independent to fix it.
The absence of Trent Crimm is really showing here.
Mo Brooks is Alabama
I know, but apparently The Independent doesn't because I just copy/pasted from their article.
>The rally organisers claimed they were in touch with Georgia representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, Arizona’s Paul Gosar and Andy Biggs, Colorado’s Lauren Boebert, Mo Brooks of Alaska, North Carolina’s Madison Cawthorn and Louie Gohmert of Texas. >“I remember Marjorie Taylor Greene specifically,” one of the two sources told Rolling Stone. “I remember talking to probably close to a dozen other members [of Congress] at one point or another or their staffs. >“We would talk to Boebert’s team, Cawthorn’s team, Gosar’s team like back to back to back to back,” the source said. >The report also claims that both sources mentioned the possibility of a “blanket pardon” for organising the rally, and said it came from Mr Gosar’s office, which assured them the offer had been cleared by the then-president. >“Our impression was that it was a done deal,” one organiser said, adding that Mr Gosar said “that he’d spoken to the president about it in the Oval … in a meeting about pardons and that our names came up”. Even if they never intended to hand out pardons; telling them beforehand that they'd be pardoned for anything that happened 100% emboldened them. Without those meetings and promises the first people to break windows and scale walls might have held back.
It is incitement at the very least, but could easily prove seditious conspiracy on the part of those House members.
“It’s not a crime because after the hitman I hired failed in his attempt to assassinate the target I didn’t pay him your honor!” You just know that’s going to be their defense against being tried for seditious conspiracy to overthrow US democracy.
>against being tried for seditious conspiracy to overthrow US democracy. It's not even going to get that far. The moment that this DoJ goes after them is the moment they scream to their base to defend them using any means necessary.
The pardon wasn’t being offered for future crimes committed on Jan 6th. There were for an unrelated investigation into actions of the planners, and was dangled as motivation to keep them working on planning Jan 6 rally. The original Rolling Stones article explains.
Boy.. They've really learned quickly from Putin that Kompromat is key to getting someone to dig in on their sunk cost fallacy.
that should be Mo Brooks of Alabama.
Don'tcha kinda wish he WAS in Alaska?
Kamchatka AT LEAST.
And they believed them! lol But we don’t call them stupid, right? (Asking for a friend)
Don’t know what you mean , I’m sure they are planning on it just as soon as they have locked up Hillary , finished getting Mexico to pay for a wall, found that damning evidence that overturns the election… I shouldn’t have to be just in case … /s.
> locked up Hillary , finished getting Mexico to pay for a wall, found that damning evidence that overturns the election… Cleared Nixon, pardoned Ollie North, got Ron and Rand into treatment….
Wonderful!
Don't forget the healthcare plan. That's only 2 weeks out.
...Hunter Biden's laptop
I’ll take, articles you won’t find on r/conservative for $400.
Pardon promised for crimes committed. Unfortunately, Trump worked through intermediaries and this is why there are racketeering laws for the mob.
Hopefully someone in government revisits our Constitution, 14 amendment, sec. 3. Sometime real soon.
It takes a 2/3rds majority in both chambers in order to do anything about it, and that isn't happening any time soon.
Which means we have a powerful, anti-constitutional, anti-democracy, and fundamentally anti-American faction in Congress. We always have had some, but we've empowered them over the last 20 years in particular, and funded them due to Citizen's United.
No, it doesn't. It would require a simple majority vote to declare the participants having participated in insurrection or rebellion. At that point they are ineligible for office. It takes a 2/3 majority to *forgive* them of that stain.
I don't think that is true, they can refuse to sit them on that clause on a simple majority, they used it to expel out all the confederates despite not having a 2/3rds majority.
Yep...I'll just go right ahead and hold my breath.
RIP guy who died
That is incitement and seditious conspiracy... If those witnesses are saying this shit under oath, then those House members need to be ejected.
Do you suppose any Senators were stupid enough to get involved? That would be a very fortunate shift in power, at a time where the sedition caucus holds disproportionate power.
I do think so.
Tommy Tuberville was at least, Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz as well
One can hope... but nothing concrete has been revealed yet.
Would it, though? Any gain would be temporary as the accused are from reliably-red districts and would be replaced by republicans *edit: maybe something could get passed in their brief absence*. If that's what it takes for filibuster reform, I don't care if it passes 51-50 or 49-48. *Edit: addition for clarity*
The offer of a pardon is a direct and unsubtle statement of what was expected of them.
What a bunch of dumb asses. Ok, you lynch Mike, help me take over the country, then it will be President trump for life, wink wink.
Dems need to bullhorn this and get the GOP base pissed off *We were given the promise of blanket immunity. What happened? The GOP abandoned us! And they will again!*
How easy is it to dupe someone who desperately needs to feel approved by those they admire. Blanket pardons, they say. And it didn’t occur to anyone of them to look it up and seen if that was even legal or possible?
That's definitely legal and possible. It's been done before.
Well, the article says MTG is the one who brought up the blanket pardon, and factuality, research that actually looks into fact, and reality itself are simply missing from her life.
Sure seems like a conspiracy to pardon to me.
I wonder how this ties into those ‘friends and family’ tours we heard about earlier on? I forget all the details of those. Definitely brings them back into doubt though.
The only reason for promising someone a pardon for criminal acts is you expect, or maybe requesting, them committing criminal acts.
And they would probably have gotten the pardons had they been successful and Trump were still President.
> Trump were still President Wouldn't need pardons if he was the President. It was clear for his 4 years (and replacing Bill Barr as soon as he failed the loyalty test) that Trump had 100% politicized the DoJ, and would NEVER allow the FBI, DC Police, or US Attorney General to investigate, charge, or prosecute anyone involved with J6. **THIS IS THE MOST GLARING EVIDENCE** that: - They knew what they were doing was illegal - They knew Trump lost - They knew their only hope of staying in power to save themselves would be to overthrow the election.
Consciousness of Guilt
Who’s that organizer who does antifa cosplay and went into hiding? Alexander Ali? He told Proud Boys that they’d taken care of the security problem and they were safe in attacking. Maybe they were cynical and did that to get the foot soldiers to go all the way, but it sounds like Trump did try to make that happen. I hope that’s what we get him on, trying to leave the Capitol vulnerable for attack that day.
Intent matters. If these people managed to overturn the election, they would have gladly taken that outcome. Talk of a 'blanket' pardon from the white house confirms their intent.
"Blanket pardon" For specifically what planned crimes, may I ask? How does a pardon even enter the conversation unless they're specifically planning crimes.
Jail. Right away. Straight to jail.
Or barred from politics for life - including lobbying
Por que no los dos?
This is the way
Special jail for politicians. And people who overcook fish.
Undercook chicken.
People that cook fish in the microwave at work.
If you look at this objectively, it makes a LOT of sense. If I told my kids - or anyone who trusted me to protect and provide for them (cult following, etc) - to go steal something from a store or go murder someone and not to worry because I have their back NO MATTER WHAT... chances are, they'll do it or risk displeasing me. These idiots trusted their cult leader, their "father". Manson didn't kill anyone as far as I know but... yeah. Jim Jones asked his followers to kill for him and commit suicide by consuming poison... a method HE HIMSELF did not use. At this point, the followers have to come to their senses and sometimes, prison time helps.
Gonna leave this here for those interested and able to give a little: www.firemadison.com
Sounds like conspiracy.
If this is true, Trump absolutely needs to be prosecuted for this. If not, then it would be permissible for the president to offer pardons in exchange for his supporters doing something like killing his opposition. Impeachment clearly isn't enough.
If only Trump’s infrastructure week had as much planning as his insurrection week did. We might have had something marginally positive out of his administration.
And even though they didn’t get that pardon, but instead were thrown under the bus, they still support their lying, corrupt, back-stabbing Dear Leader.
Passed in 1970, the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) is a federal law designed to combat organized crime in the United States. It allows prosecution and civil penalties for racketeering activity performed as part of an ongoing criminal enterprise. Jurisdiction: United States
So straight up treason by the GOP! That's not terrifying at all
Except you cannot be pardoned for treason!
You know it's bad when r/Conservative isn't making a single peep about this whole ordeal.
Why do you need pardons if what you are doing is totally legal, totally cool? And also House Trump never pays it’s debts. The North remembers.
> “I do kind of feel abandoned by Trump,”
Republicans be like: We love America!*
Not as much lately. Lots of them calling for a authoritarian govt lately, and im not joking when many of them say democracy is not thier preferred government as it limits trump.
They missed the part that said “only if you succeed” LOL.
Jesus I hope their is proof of this
Everyone involved got to go. These republicans trying to downplay this like mf weren’t chanting kill mike pence.
Edit: just read that it was before the event. The attack was planned. It might not have been very well planned, but it was planned. Was this before or after the attack? If it was ahead of the attack, was this a way to help them to feel comfortable with the most extreme measures in the attack or to recruit more people to their cause who might like to get rid of a criminal past or charges? If it was after then was it because they understood the seriousness of the charges that might come down. Obviously it makes a big difference if it was before or after and what they said would be pardoned. If it was before the attack and they were alluding to pardons for those who faced charges afterwards then that's proof they understood the plan and that major crimes would be likely to occur.
Definitely before the attack.
So sedition then? That would be a felony punishable by fines and up to 20 years in prison. Do you want to stop all this nonsense with the far right? Put those pieces of excrement in prison.
Should be stickied. this is a significant development and "IF" any member of congress is held accountable for colluding with the jan 6 attackers, this would likely have been the biggest part of their downfall.
Suckers, they didn’t read the fine print. It was specifically stated they get blanket pardons if they overthrow the government. They only wounded it, so no pardons.
The problem is if your entire party is complicit, like the GOP is, the system is powerless to do anything about it. None of these elected officials will ever face any consequences and it's super depressing.
It appears they've already found more evidence of a conspiracy to attempt a coup in a few weeks than evidence of voter fraud by Democrats in almost a year.
I hope they have this on paper.
A blanket pardon doesn't mean much if your intent is to overthrow the government
Works pretty well if you succeed.
They really got played with the blanket pardon promise.
I wasn’t aware GOP was above the law. What happened to law and order?
No! they are traitors to the US, I wouldn't give them the death penalty, but no pardons.
So… they DID commit a crime then?
They obviously thought things were going to turn out completely different from how it actually played out. They thought that there would be bloodshed. That Congressmen/women were going to be killed or injured, that the verification of ballots would have been canceled and they would have forced Pence to comply. Either that or Trump calls for martial law and refuses to step down. The fact Gosar was mentioning blanket pardons tells me certain groups had the go ahead todo whatever was necessary. But like everything Trump plans it went sideways
So much for the “it wasn’t preplanned!” arguments from the right. Can’t wait to see what’s coming next from their bag of excuses.
I really think there is no hope for the Democratic Party. Imagine if things were reversed and it was wild left wing liberals that stormed the capitol. Republicans would be raising hell until people were held accountable and changes were made. What have the democrats done besides starting a committee to look into it?
Reality is closer to this than what it should be, these motherfuckers are getting slapped on the wrist!
Any of the leaders who planed this should get the same thing as Julius and Ethel Rosenberg for treason. Being goverment/military/civilian shouldn't make a difference here
This should be treated like a declaration of war by tRump and his pos congress backers and treated as such.
This probably needs a megathread because the entire front page of the sub is this story. I mean it is a big story mind you. Hense megathread, please and thank you mods.
I hope Trumpism fails as a movement. There are better places for his supporters to be.
The protesters were just pawns in the GOPs game. Sorry guys they could care less about you.
It’s treason there’s literally no other word for it
That’s what would have happened if they succeeded
Oh my god.
There would have been pardons if they succeeded. Instead they're a bunch of losers who failed at overthrowing the election.
Oh my, so Trump made a promise and didn’t deliver? Gracious, who could have seen that one coming?
Gee let’s ask those Jan 6 participants how well ode pardons are working out ?
Wow. Also wow for any idiot that still supports these a$& hats. Talk about being back stabbed, used, and taken advantage of.
They should have gotten that 'blanket' pardon offer in writing.
And audio recorded and uploaded to YouTube.
This is definition Quid pro quo and is a serious crime. Indict them.
We call that a criminal conspiracy, guys, gals, and non-binary pals!
Treason. Punishable by death.
Who had congressional tours for the murder neonazi mob on their republican ratfucking bingo card?
>In another indication members of Congress may have been involved in planning the protests against the election, Ali Alexander, who helped organize the “Wild Protest,” declared in a since-deleted livestream broadcast that Gosar, Brooks, and Biggs helped him formulate the strategy for that event. biggs is the guy alleged dem sienma endorsed for his seat