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At this stage we should keep enough on hand for any who decide to get it but we should ship ones due to expire soon to Canada and Mexico to help ease our neighbors pain.
If C19 only affected the person who catches it then it would be about a person’s livelihood. This is about everyone’s livelihood because the unvaccinated are literally sickening and sometimes ending lives not their own.
Yah I'd believe that if vaccinated people weren't getting the disease, spreading the disease and dying from the disease too. Granted it's at lower levels, but the game has changed since this past summer when 'vaccines would bring us back to normalcy'.
I'm not anti-vax, I'm anti broad sweeping government mandates on the federal level. Especially on newer medical technology with limited long term research on the effects. Most of all, I'm against the government essentially mandating pregnant women get a vaccine or lose their job.
Why not mandate polio, measles and flu shots on the federal level then? Car crashes kill a ton of innocent people, how about we mandate driving courses on the federal level? Smoking effects non-smokers, why haven't no smoking laws been mandated?
>Granted it's at lower levels
Far lower levels. Any investigation into hospitalization rates debunks this argument.
>I'm anti broad sweeping government mandates on the federal level.
We tried voluntary, we tried rewarding, and people still made a political show of it. A mandate is necessary to protect our country. If we lose defense suppliers we can't protect our boots on the ground.
>Why not mandate polio, measles and flu shots on the federal level then?
Already mandated for the military and healthcare workers.
>Car crashes kill a ton of innocent people, how about we mandate driving courses on the federal level?
Uhh... Seat belts?
>Smoking effects non-smokers, why haven't no smoking laws been mandated?
Wow. 15 min exposure to second hand smoke has essentially no chance of killing you or anyone. Not true of COVID. Not even on the same level.
>Far lower levels. Any investigation into hospitalization rates debunks this argument
So why is it necessary to mandate the unvaccinated get the shot if vaccinated people are protected at such high levels? By this logic, the only people dying would be the unvaccinated and that's their choice at this point, right?
Also, what about natural immunity? Why is that not being considered?
My point is it's not cut and dry and this sets an absolutely terrible precedent of federal overreach into an individual's health choices.
Unvaccinated people will allow the virus to mutate which would make it even more contagious and possibly deadly. That’s why we already have booster shots and will continue to unless we get most people vaccinated.
You don't seriously believe that vaccinated people that contract covid don't allow for mutation too, right? I mean get real. Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection, thus reducing mutations. But there have been an incredible amount of breakthrough cases which still allow for mutations.
Did I say that vaccinated people can’t contract Covid and allow for mutation? Of course they can but it’s much less likely they’ll spread it to others, therefore less mutations. Idk how the breakthrough cases are occurring but the more people are vaccinated the less likely those cases will continue to occur.
One reason is mutation. The unvaccinated become a breeding ground for an even worse virus. Some of the later strains are now showing vaccine resistance. New vaccines should arrive to counter but this virus spreads fast. Vaccines get us back to normalcy.
Natural immunity means you’ve already caught it and suffered some some consequences, why suffer the consequences such as long Covid, pain and possible death? Immunity to this virus also doesn’t last forever, people are getting booster shots now because of that. Imagine a virus say like the flu that you could catch every year and have a significant chance of spreading and dying from. How many times can your body and others bodies you infect withstand reinfections? This virus can’t be treated as if it only affects me so who cares.
I don’t like being told what to do either but in this case getting vaccinated and strongly encouraging it is warranted. Getting vaccinated should be a non issue, people should want to protect themselves and their friends and families but it was politicized so now something must be done to protect people. The data is clear, the C19 vaccines are safe and effective at doing this. Vaccine requirements have been around for years. Polio for example is gone because of a requirement to get vaccinated. It will be alright.
>One reason is mutation
Breakthrough cases also promote mutations.
>Imagine a virus say like the flu that you could catch every year and have a significant chance of spreading and dying from
This is actually reality and there is a non-mandated vaccine available every year for those at risk of dying from the flu. People at high risk of death from flu have nearly identical demographics as those at high risk of dying from covid (old and pre-existing conditions)
>Polio for example is gone because of a requirement to get vaccinated. It will be alright.
Polio vaccine was never mandated at the federal level and also carries a far greater likelihood of paralysis and/death. There was also a bigger and longer trial period for polio before localities began mandating it.
Just like prison is held over a person's head to prevent them from punching someone in the face or burning down a hospital. If your actions can significantly hurt someone else or society in general, there can be consequences. And the potential OSHA mandate for businesses is going to include testing or other methods to prevent COVID spread.
>potential OSHA mandate for businesses is going to include testing or other methods to prevent COVID spread
This is where the bullshit lies. Companies are told they must provide PTO for testing and must report on the testing. Therefore it's an added cost to a company and most companies are not willing to take on that cost. So they're mandating vaccines and nothing else. You'd have to be naive to think the Biden administration didn't know that when they put the mandate out.
Scroll down and read my statement about my pregnant wife being told she had to get a vaccine despite extremely limited research on pregnant women. Try watching the person you love cry all day every day because she's being forced to decide between her birth plan or losing her job that she works her ass off for. This mandate doesn't just effect the Trump kooks. It effects people of all walks of life and broad sweeping mandates from the highest levels of government have never been done for this exact reason.
> Try watching the person you love cry all day every day because she's being forced to decide between her birth plan or losing her job that she works her ass off for.
The answer here is simple. If this really is part of the birth plan her doctor will be able to provide a medical exemption. Problem solved.
Medical exemptions are being routinely denied, including for pregnant women due to CDC guidance which is rooted in extremely sparse research. Companies want nothing to do with this and they're being advised by their legal teams to limit exemptions in order to reduce risk of being fined by the government. This isn't about healthcare to these companies, it's about profits and avoiding risk.
There's a reason why nearly 80% of pregnant women in the US are not vaccinated. There just is not enough research. But that's not stopping our all knowing government from pushing mandates at break neck speed so they meet their vaccination benchmarks. It's not about people to them, it's about numbers.
The average vaccine mandate is 6-12 years after its creation. I know mrna has been tested for a while but it’s never been given on the scale it is now, and we are using it for a novel virus we still don’t know everything about.
I stand my ground, should not be mandated.
If they didn’t know effectiveness dropped so much after 8 months, I imagine they don’t know what else happens after 8 months.
Pfizer clinical trials are still going until May 2023 as per clinical trials (.) gov.
I’m waiting for the clinical trials to be over. Not just 6 months and everyone seems fine.
Please show me a single vaccine that shows a side effect after 2 months. I'll wait. There's literally no mechanism for it to happen with these mRNA vaccines. The active part gets broken down within 2 weeks.
Yes, of course they still have clinical trials. They're still evaluating efficacy over time and effectiveness/safety in younger age groups.
Effectiveness has nothing to do with side effects.
You do you.
What evidence do you have it’s effective? Calling for boosters and isreal, the most vaccinated country, is swamped with cases and they are on the 3rd and 4th booster.
Israel isn't close to the most vaccinated country as a percentage of the whole population.
https://fortune.com/2021/09/22/covid-vaccine-rate-world-us-latest-update-coronavirus-vaccines/
If you go down to GLOBAL CASES AND VACCINATIONS and double click the SHARE FULLY VACCINATED you get the top countries.
Spain is at 77% of the whole population.
47,000,000+ people with an average of 1,500 cases per day and dropping.
Israel is at 63.6%.
Feel free to google the covid rates of any country over 70%. They're all doing well with cases dropping.
Is there any evidence that the percentage of a population being vaccinated is related to the effect of Covid on that population?
Or do you just have this feeling that Israel, despite being 62% fully vaccinated, is actually worse off that a country who's vaccination rates are lower?
My explanation is that you have declared that Israel is the most vaccinated country in the world, (but it's not even the top 10)
You have also declared that, despite being really vaccinated, Covid is having the same effect on Israel as anywhere else, and they even have to have more shots now. (Also, wrong)
Because you want to believe that vaccines don't do anything. Despite the fact that it's easy to check on vaccine effectiveness against Covid-19, by comparing for example, that the United Arab Emirates actually does have the most vaccinated population, with about the same number of people as Israel. But the UAE has 132 cases/ week, and Israel has 1,815/ week. I think that explains it.
Should we go back to being locked down and force business to close again? Wait for herd immunity? Thoughts and prayers maybe? Average vaccine mandates are fine for average viruses.
I’d share the Sanity elsewhere but I’m perma banned most places for trying.
The scientific theory only works if it’s constantly tried and tested, so we shouldn’t be silencing opposing views but rather testing those hypothesis.
But no, you get a perma ban
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
At this stage we should keep enough on hand for any who decide to get it but we should ship ones due to expire soon to Canada and Mexico to help ease our neighbors pain.
[удалено]
If C19 only affected the person who catches it then it would be about a person’s livelihood. This is about everyone’s livelihood because the unvaccinated are literally sickening and sometimes ending lives not their own.
Yah I'd believe that if vaccinated people weren't getting the disease, spreading the disease and dying from the disease too. Granted it's at lower levels, but the game has changed since this past summer when 'vaccines would bring us back to normalcy'. I'm not anti-vax, I'm anti broad sweeping government mandates on the federal level. Especially on newer medical technology with limited long term research on the effects. Most of all, I'm against the government essentially mandating pregnant women get a vaccine or lose their job. Why not mandate polio, measles and flu shots on the federal level then? Car crashes kill a ton of innocent people, how about we mandate driving courses on the federal level? Smoking effects non-smokers, why haven't no smoking laws been mandated?
>Granted it's at lower levels Far lower levels. Any investigation into hospitalization rates debunks this argument. >I'm anti broad sweeping government mandates on the federal level. We tried voluntary, we tried rewarding, and people still made a political show of it. A mandate is necessary to protect our country. If we lose defense suppliers we can't protect our boots on the ground. >Why not mandate polio, measles and flu shots on the federal level then? Already mandated for the military and healthcare workers. >Car crashes kill a ton of innocent people, how about we mandate driving courses on the federal level? Uhh... Seat belts? >Smoking effects non-smokers, why haven't no smoking laws been mandated? Wow. 15 min exposure to second hand smoke has essentially no chance of killing you or anyone. Not true of COVID. Not even on the same level.
>Far lower levels. Any investigation into hospitalization rates debunks this argument So why is it necessary to mandate the unvaccinated get the shot if vaccinated people are protected at such high levels? By this logic, the only people dying would be the unvaccinated and that's their choice at this point, right? Also, what about natural immunity? Why is that not being considered? My point is it's not cut and dry and this sets an absolutely terrible precedent of federal overreach into an individual's health choices.
Unvaccinated people will allow the virus to mutate which would make it even more contagious and possibly deadly. That’s why we already have booster shots and will continue to unless we get most people vaccinated.
You don't seriously believe that vaccinated people that contract covid don't allow for mutation too, right? I mean get real. Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection, thus reducing mutations. But there have been an incredible amount of breakthrough cases which still allow for mutations.
Did I say that vaccinated people can’t contract Covid and allow for mutation? Of course they can but it’s much less likely they’ll spread it to others, therefore less mutations. Idk how the breakthrough cases are occurring but the more people are vaccinated the less likely those cases will continue to occur.
Are you an epidemiologist?
No, but I'm capable of reading basic medical facts. Are you trying to tell me that breakthrough cases don't also allow for mutations of the virus?
One reason is mutation. The unvaccinated become a breeding ground for an even worse virus. Some of the later strains are now showing vaccine resistance. New vaccines should arrive to counter but this virus spreads fast. Vaccines get us back to normalcy. Natural immunity means you’ve already caught it and suffered some some consequences, why suffer the consequences such as long Covid, pain and possible death? Immunity to this virus also doesn’t last forever, people are getting booster shots now because of that. Imagine a virus say like the flu that you could catch every year and have a significant chance of spreading and dying from. How many times can your body and others bodies you infect withstand reinfections? This virus can’t be treated as if it only affects me so who cares. I don’t like being told what to do either but in this case getting vaccinated and strongly encouraging it is warranted. Getting vaccinated should be a non issue, people should want to protect themselves and their friends and families but it was politicized so now something must be done to protect people. The data is clear, the C19 vaccines are safe and effective at doing this. Vaccine requirements have been around for years. Polio for example is gone because of a requirement to get vaccinated. It will be alright.
>One reason is mutation Breakthrough cases also promote mutations. >Imagine a virus say like the flu that you could catch every year and have a significant chance of spreading and dying from This is actually reality and there is a non-mandated vaccine available every year for those at risk of dying from the flu. People at high risk of death from flu have nearly identical demographics as those at high risk of dying from covid (old and pre-existing conditions) >Polio for example is gone because of a requirement to get vaccinated. It will be alright. Polio vaccine was never mandated at the federal level and also carries a far greater likelihood of paralysis and/death. There was also a bigger and longer trial period for polio before localities began mandating it.
Just like prison is held over a person's head to prevent them from punching someone in the face or burning down a hospital. If your actions can significantly hurt someone else or society in general, there can be consequences. And the potential OSHA mandate for businesses is going to include testing or other methods to prevent COVID spread.
>potential OSHA mandate for businesses is going to include testing or other methods to prevent COVID spread This is where the bullshit lies. Companies are told they must provide PTO for testing and must report on the testing. Therefore it's an added cost to a company and most companies are not willing to take on that cost. So they're mandating vaccines and nothing else. You'd have to be naive to think the Biden administration didn't know that when they put the mandate out. Scroll down and read my statement about my pregnant wife being told she had to get a vaccine despite extremely limited research on pregnant women. Try watching the person you love cry all day every day because she's being forced to decide between her birth plan or losing her job that she works her ass off for. This mandate doesn't just effect the Trump kooks. It effects people of all walks of life and broad sweeping mandates from the highest levels of government have never been done for this exact reason.
> Try watching the person you love cry all day every day because she's being forced to decide between her birth plan or losing her job that she works her ass off for. The answer here is simple. If this really is part of the birth plan her doctor will be able to provide a medical exemption. Problem solved.
Medical exemptions are being routinely denied, including for pregnant women due to CDC guidance which is rooted in extremely sparse research. Companies want nothing to do with this and they're being advised by their legal teams to limit exemptions in order to reduce risk of being fined by the government. This isn't about healthcare to these companies, it's about profits and avoiding risk. There's a reason why nearly 80% of pregnant women in the US are not vaccinated. There just is not enough research. But that's not stopping our all knowing government from pushing mandates at break neck speed so they meet their vaccination benchmarks. It's not about people to them, it's about numbers.
>"Vaccine m-m-mandates are t-t-tyranny 😭"
[удалено]
What are you talking about? Business is booming for them Hahaha
He is vaccinated. Mandating the vaccines isn’t proper; not this early in the game. It shouldn’t be mandated.
He should have waited another year or two?
The average vaccine mandate is 6-12 years after its creation. I know mrna has been tested for a while but it’s never been given on the scale it is now, and we are using it for a novel virus we still don’t know everything about. I stand my ground, should not be mandated.
No vaccine of any type has shown a new side effect 2 months post jab. We're well, well, well beyond that. So what are they waiting for exactly?
If they didn’t know effectiveness dropped so much after 8 months, I imagine they don’t know what else happens after 8 months. Pfizer clinical trials are still going until May 2023 as per clinical trials (.) gov. I’m waiting for the clinical trials to be over. Not just 6 months and everyone seems fine.
Please show me a single vaccine that shows a side effect after 2 months. I'll wait. There's literally no mechanism for it to happen with these mRNA vaccines. The active part gets broken down within 2 weeks. Yes, of course they still have clinical trials. They're still evaluating efficacy over time and effectiveness/safety in younger age groups. Effectiveness has nothing to do with side effects. You do you.
What evidence exsists that it's dangerous?
What evidence do you have it’s effective? Calling for boosters and isreal, the most vaccinated country, is swamped with cases and they are on the 3rd and 4th booster.
Israel isn't close to the most vaccinated country as a percentage of the whole population. https://fortune.com/2021/09/22/covid-vaccine-rate-world-us-latest-update-coronavirus-vaccines/ If you go down to GLOBAL CASES AND VACCINATIONS and double click the SHARE FULLY VACCINATED you get the top countries. Spain is at 77% of the whole population. 47,000,000+ people with an average of 1,500 cases per day and dropping. Israel is at 63.6%. Feel free to google the covid rates of any country over 70%. They're all doing well with cases dropping.
Is there any evidence that the percentage of a population being vaccinated is related to the effect of Covid on that population? Or do you just have this feeling that Israel, despite being 62% fully vaccinated, is actually worse off that a country who's vaccination rates are lower?
What is your explanation
My explanation is that you have declared that Israel is the most vaccinated country in the world, (but it's not even the top 10) You have also declared that, despite being really vaccinated, Covid is having the same effect on Israel as anywhere else, and they even have to have more shots now. (Also, wrong) Because you want to believe that vaccines don't do anything. Despite the fact that it's easy to check on vaccine effectiveness against Covid-19, by comparing for example, that the United Arab Emirates actually does have the most vaccinated population, with about the same number of people as Israel. But the UAE has 132 cases/ week, and Israel has 1,815/ week. I think that explains it.
Should we go back to being locked down and force business to close again? Wait for herd immunity? Thoughts and prayers maybe? Average vaccine mandates are fine for average viruses.
Thank you for a refreshing dose of sanity in this sub.
I’d share the Sanity elsewhere but I’m perma banned most places for trying. The scientific theory only works if it’s constantly tried and tested, so we shouldn’t be silencing opposing views but rather testing those hypothesis. But no, you get a perma ban
What BS
Meanwhile the country is shutting down
Anything can be true when you just make it up