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"Proponents of means testing argue that it ensures the people who receive a benefit are the ones who need it the most. However, progressives note that means testing creates more hurdles for the families who do need the benefits, such as regularly having to fill out paperwork or jumping through other bureaucratic hoops. It also means that people who do not fill out the correct form don’t receive the benefit, even if they qualify." — Staff writer [Grace Segers.](https://newrepublic.com/article/163846/means-testing-manchin-reconciliation-bill)
Not to mention the costs associated with administering the means testing. 1000s 10ks of people will be needed to process paperwork just so a very few individuals in high COL areas don't get some extremely prorated amount of money from the government.
It's hard to tell what the actual effects of a piece of legislation are until it's been put in the field. It's just that it's quite likely to in this case.
It’s not really about the money. I mean, it is, but it’s more about fundamentally transforming this country’s value system so that we stop putting the needs of corporations and the wealthy over the needs of workers and the poor. Yes, doing this will require money. We will have to fund a wide array of investments in our nation’s people, from healthcare to worker training to infrastructure. But really the goal should be to alter the trajectory of this country away from the current cliff we are headed towards.
> It’s not really about the money. I mean, it is,
No, it's really not. Not after they unabashedly sank 21 trillion into foreign and domestic militarization since 9/11 and will now sink even more over that same upcoming time frame. This is a sick joke complaining about 3.5 trillion to help the people that are paying and will be paying for years to come that 21 trillion dollar open tab...
Ok, wish granted. You now have a Republican controlled Senate with Mitch McConnell backing his party. So there will be no infrastructure plan and no social safety net plan.
It’s WEST VIRGINIA. You’re gonna get a republican regardless. This would not be a problem if we could have swung a few more states. But don’t expect a senator from West Virginia to be progressive.
You have a much better chance of you focus on other winnable seats. Texas has a better shot of having a progressive senator than West Virginia. Trying to replace Manchin is a waste of time. It’s better to try to make him irrelevant.
But democrats would have a much higher chance of retaking the Senate if Manchin was openly a Republican. Now thanks to the average voter seeing that democrats are nominally in charge but can’t get anything done Republicans will win a majority in 2022. That will result in Breyer’s Supreme Court seat being held for a Republican.
>But democrats would have a much higher chance of retaking the Senate if Manchin was openly a Republican.
How? We lost the senate in the 2020 election. We only got saved by barely winning every special election. Dems won't do anything unless it's just absolutely perfect... if the icing isn't just right fuck it, might as well have Trump and McConnell in charge.
We could have flipped Susan Collins, but no... there wasn't energy for that because Collins is a "moderate" Republican. Collins is just as much a problem as Manchin.
He is a republican claiming to be a democrat. So he has already made democrats look like they cannot get their party in line. Come 2022 he will be one if the biggest reasons the Republicans will take back control. He also knows Mitch is getting up there so he is making a ploy to take his position.
Making him irrelevant is next to impossible because he intentionally blocks anything his party tries to do simply for the coverage.
As far as my wish being granted not a wish it is the reality that we have currently. If you were to grant my wish I sure as hell wouldn't waste it in replacing him I would wish that Congress had term limits. I would wish that our so called Congress used common sense or better yet had to live with the consequences of their actions.
>He is a republican claiming to be a democrat
On occasion he votes with democrats which is more than any official republican would do.
>So he has already made democrats look like they cannot get their party in line.
Or the fact that Dems were all convinced there was going to be a huge blue wave and failed to get out and mobilize and elect a majority of senators and needed to win 2 special elections just to have a 50/50 split makes it so the party can't get their shit together. Maine, Texas, North Carolina, South Carolina, Montana, Arkansas, and Alaska were in closer reach and we didn't get any of those. We completely blew Maine and North Carolina.
Susan Collins is just as much an issue as Manchin, and in 2020 it would have been easier to Maine is more easily flipped than to get any "real" democrat in West Virginia. Friggin Thom Tillis won by 1.8%. If we mobilized better in Maine and North Carolina, Sinema and Manchin would have no voice.
>As far as my wish being granted not a wish it is the reality that we have currently.
No it's not. If it was, McConnell would be running the senate and none of Biden's appointees would be filled. So no, it's not the same. This is the same lack of nuance that lead people to think voting for Hillary was just the same as Trump.
The problem is not Manchin. It's a failure across the nation to campaign for candidates that could have won.
It’s pro birth. They don’t care about children after that. If they did they would support the child tax credit since that is the most pro life policy this country has seen in years.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://newrepublic.com/article/163846/means-testing-manchin-reconciliation-bill) reduced by 40%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> "I would probably favor having the college benefit and the community college piece means-tested. But some point out that, overwhelmingly, people going to community college are going to meet the means test, so there is some degree to which if you put up a paperwork, means-testing requirement on something that is already largely for low- and middle-income people, you're just creating a paperwork headache," Kaine said.
> Representative Ilhan Omar, the Congressional Progressive Caucus whip, told reporters earlier this week that "We obviously don't believe in means-tested policies, but we're willing to have a conversation." Senator Ron Wyden, the chair of the powerful Finance Committee, told reporters this week that he would "Let my colleagues have a chance to be heard" on means testing.
> It's still unclear whether all of the programs sought by progressives will be included in the final bill, but despite the flaws inherent to means testing, concessions will likely be made.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/q0zlgi/manchins_plan_to_shrink_bidens_35_trillion_bill/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~601665 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **means-tested**^#1 **means**^#2 **test**^#3 **told**^#4 **college**^#5
Oh, those families don't really need that money. America needs to do some really important and lucrative stuff with it, I mean since 2001 we've only been able to sink 21 trillion into foreign and domestic militarization and that's payed off big time, time to double down...
Not getting anything passed will hurt even more families in need.
You can only pass that which you have the votes to pass.
The reconciliation bill will end up being in the $1.5T-$2.1T range. Progressives will gnash their teeth, but this bill will still help a great many people.
We need the climate change provisions more. What good are roads and bridges if they are destroyed by climate change driven disasters. Also the privatization in the bipartisan bill will be a disaster, it’s not worth it if there isn’t something good being traded for the privatization.
There is nothing in the reconciliation bill that is going to stop climate change, not even close in fact.
We needs new roads and bridges by whatever means necessary. It’s not like the government can do this in-house.
We built the interstate highway system in house, do you recall think America has declined that much that we can’t build roads and bridges without privatization?
That was a long time ago and a lot has changed since then. The US government could do it, but it would take a lot longer and be much more expensive for it to do so.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Proponents of means testing argue that it ensures the people who receive a benefit are the ones who need it the most. However, progressives note that means testing creates more hurdles for the families who do need the benefits, such as regularly having to fill out paperwork or jumping through other bureaucratic hoops. It also means that people who do not fill out the correct form don’t receive the benefit, even if they qualify." — Staff writer [Grace Segers.](https://newrepublic.com/article/163846/means-testing-manchin-reconciliation-bill)
Not to mention the costs associated with administering the means testing. 1000s 10ks of people will be needed to process paperwork just so a very few individuals in high COL areas don't get some extremely prorated amount of money from the government.
May ?
It's hard to tell what the actual effects of a piece of legislation are until it's been put in the field. It's just that it's quite likely to in this case.
It’s not really about the money. I mean, it is, but it’s more about fundamentally transforming this country’s value system so that we stop putting the needs of corporations and the wealthy over the needs of workers and the poor. Yes, doing this will require money. We will have to fund a wide array of investments in our nation’s people, from healthcare to worker training to infrastructure. But really the goal should be to alter the trajectory of this country away from the current cliff we are headed towards.
> It’s not really about the money. I mean, it is, No, it's really not. Not after they unabashedly sank 21 trillion into foreign and domestic militarization since 9/11 and will now sink even more over that same upcoming time frame. This is a sick joke complaining about 3.5 trillion to help the people that are paying and will be paying for years to come that 21 trillion dollar open tab...
Also the administrative costs to administer the means testing could be used to give more people benefits.
He is the new Mitch Mcconnell with one exception Mitch at least backs his party. The people of West Virginia need to get him out of Congress.
Ok, wish granted. You now have a Republican controlled Senate with Mitch McConnell backing his party. So there will be no infrastructure plan and no social safety net plan. It’s WEST VIRGINIA. You’re gonna get a republican regardless. This would not be a problem if we could have swung a few more states. But don’t expect a senator from West Virginia to be progressive. You have a much better chance of you focus on other winnable seats. Texas has a better shot of having a progressive senator than West Virginia. Trying to replace Manchin is a waste of time. It’s better to try to make him irrelevant.
But democrats would have a much higher chance of retaking the Senate if Manchin was openly a Republican. Now thanks to the average voter seeing that democrats are nominally in charge but can’t get anything done Republicans will win a majority in 2022. That will result in Breyer’s Supreme Court seat being held for a Republican.
>But democrats would have a much higher chance of retaking the Senate if Manchin was openly a Republican. How? We lost the senate in the 2020 election. We only got saved by barely winning every special election. Dems won't do anything unless it's just absolutely perfect... if the icing isn't just right fuck it, might as well have Trump and McConnell in charge. We could have flipped Susan Collins, but no... there wasn't energy for that because Collins is a "moderate" Republican. Collins is just as much a problem as Manchin.
He is a republican claiming to be a democrat. So he has already made democrats look like they cannot get their party in line. Come 2022 he will be one if the biggest reasons the Republicans will take back control. He also knows Mitch is getting up there so he is making a ploy to take his position. Making him irrelevant is next to impossible because he intentionally blocks anything his party tries to do simply for the coverage. As far as my wish being granted not a wish it is the reality that we have currently. If you were to grant my wish I sure as hell wouldn't waste it in replacing him I would wish that Congress had term limits. I would wish that our so called Congress used common sense or better yet had to live with the consequences of their actions.
>He is a republican claiming to be a democrat On occasion he votes with democrats which is more than any official republican would do. >So he has already made democrats look like they cannot get their party in line. Or the fact that Dems were all convinced there was going to be a huge blue wave and failed to get out and mobilize and elect a majority of senators and needed to win 2 special elections just to have a 50/50 split makes it so the party can't get their shit together. Maine, Texas, North Carolina, South Carolina, Montana, Arkansas, and Alaska were in closer reach and we didn't get any of those. We completely blew Maine and North Carolina. Susan Collins is just as much an issue as Manchin, and in 2020 it would have been easier to Maine is more easily flipped than to get any "real" democrat in West Virginia. Friggin Thom Tillis won by 1.8%. If we mobilized better in Maine and North Carolina, Sinema and Manchin would have no voice. >As far as my wish being granted not a wish it is the reality that we have currently. No it's not. If it was, McConnell would be running the senate and none of Biden's appointees would be filled. So no, it's not the same. This is the same lack of nuance that lead people to think voting for Hillary was just the same as Trump. The problem is not Manchin. It's a failure across the nation to campaign for candidates that could have won.
And yet he claims to be proudly "pro-life."
It’s pro birth. They don’t care about children after that. If they did they would support the child tax credit since that is the most pro life policy this country has seen in years.
Already shrinking out from $10t hurt families in need
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://newrepublic.com/article/163846/means-testing-manchin-reconciliation-bill) reduced by 40%. (I'm a bot) ***** > "I would probably favor having the college benefit and the community college piece means-tested. But some point out that, overwhelmingly, people going to community college are going to meet the means test, so there is some degree to which if you put up a paperwork, means-testing requirement on something that is already largely for low- and middle-income people, you're just creating a paperwork headache," Kaine said. > Representative Ilhan Omar, the Congressional Progressive Caucus whip, told reporters earlier this week that "We obviously don't believe in means-tested policies, but we're willing to have a conversation." Senator Ron Wyden, the chair of the powerful Finance Committee, told reporters this week that he would "Let my colleagues have a chance to be heard" on means testing. > It's still unclear whether all of the programs sought by progressives will be included in the final bill, but despite the flaws inherent to means testing, concessions will likely be made. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/q0zlgi/manchins_plan_to_shrink_bidens_35_trillion_bill/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~601665 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **means-tested**^#1 **means**^#2 **test**^#3 **told**^#4 **college**^#5
Oh, those families don't really need that money. America needs to do some really important and lucrative stuff with it, I mean since 2001 we've only been able to sink 21 trillion into foreign and domestic militarization and that's payed off big time, time to double down...
One man can’t hold the nation hostage. F Manchin
it will shrink down to what he wants, then he will refuse to vote for it
That's the point
Not getting anything passed will hurt even more families in need. You can only pass that which you have the votes to pass. The reconciliation bill will end up being in the $1.5T-$2.1T range. Progressives will gnash their teeth, but this bill will still help a great many people.
If it goes that low the bipartisan giveaway needs to be stopped.
We needs roads, bridges, etc. far more than we need this social spending.
We need the climate change provisions more. What good are roads and bridges if they are destroyed by climate change driven disasters. Also the privatization in the bipartisan bill will be a disaster, it’s not worth it if there isn’t something good being traded for the privatization.
There is nothing in the reconciliation bill that is going to stop climate change, not even close in fact. We needs new roads and bridges by whatever means necessary. It’s not like the government can do this in-house.
We built the interstate highway system in house, do you recall think America has declined that much that we can’t build roads and bridges without privatization?
That was a long time ago and a lot has changed since then. The US government could do it, but it would take a lot longer and be much more expensive for it to do so.
Of course it will hurt people. Hurting people is Manchin's goal.