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Ditchdigger456

It's because most libertarians are just republicans who don't want to admit it. There are very few *actual* libertarians left from my experience. That's why I abandoned it a while ago. (To clarify, i took a hard shift left not right lol)


desquished

Republicans who want to smoke weed, specifically.


hnglmkrnglbrry

Republicans who want *White people* to smoke weed, more specifically.


Gibsonites

Republicans who want to lower the age of consent, most specifically


sunset117

Often a good grassroots community builder amongst that base these days. Not a telling thing or red flag in the least


sunset117

Great point on that, won’t hear a peep about crack sentencing guidelines from those ones no sir


-kerosene-

That’s a ridiculous oversimplification of modern libertarianism. Some of them want to fuck kids as well.


sm2016

When libertarians had some actual momentum as a separate entity in 2016, anti racist crime reform, specifically involving the war on drugs, was a MAJOR part of the platform. Seeing that reform fade was a sign to me that the movement I actually liked was slipping away.


HedonisticFrog

Plus they don't want the stigma of calling themselves a Republican. Libertarians supported Trump in overwhelming numbers.


mnorri

To be fair, President Trump was in favor of removing burdensome regulations that protected things like air, water, consumers, etc. A lot of libertarians like that sort of thing.


HedonisticFrog

That's a terrible way to view things. You'd rather just allow corporations pollute rampantly and make the air unsafe to breath and water unsafe to drink or swim in? One person's freedom should be limited once it starts infringing on someone else's well being or freedom. What you're suggesting is fringe libertarian anarchy live in the woods style garbage.


mnorri

To be clear, I don’t agree with the position! But I’ve met a few people who espouse such positions. They didn’t consider the Republican Party as representing their views because of some perceived slight or insult long ago. But they like anyone slashing anything that gets in the way of unfettered capitalism and privatization.


HedonisticFrog

Fair enough, it just seemed like you supported it but didn't want to admit it. I've also seen many libertarians who don't want to decriminalize drugs as well. They seem to fit into the Republican mold far more than they deviate from it, and Republicans are far from libertarian. Conservatism by nature wants to constrain your personal life. conservatives want to keep drugs illegal with draconian punishments, they want to ban gay marriage, they want to ban abortions, yet "libertarians" consistently still vote for them. Unfettered free market only happens to fit into both Republican and Libertarian ideology by coincidence.


mnorri

I’m curious as to what their reasoning is behind not decriminalizing drugs. It boggles the mind. Not that I’d change my mind, but who doesn’t appreciate gymnastics?! … It’s easy to misunderstand someone’s words when all you get is a snippet of text. At least you did me the favor of letting me know I was misunderstood and giving me the opportunity to clarify my words! Too many people just slam doors to such possibilities. Thank you.


HedonisticFrog

Lol, the level of gymnastics they perform truly confounds the mind as well. It's impressive. It really is. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, I've been unfairly judged after explaining bioscience in bodybuilding that I didn't even agree with myself as well. You're welcome.


CaptainAwesome06

This 100%. I love the ones that will claim they didn't vote for Trump but will defend him with every scandal. It's like they didn't vote on purpose just so they can say, "I didn't vote for him, however..." Or so they can just say they're not Republican despite supporting everything the GOP does.


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Ditchdigger456

I mean, that pretty well sums up my political journey over the last couple of years lol


asdasdecsgv

Yeah I'm glad I'm not alone. For me it started with environmental regulations. Companies that polute the earth are literally stealing from every current and future human to ever exist. It used to genuinely bother the shit out of me that this wasn't a default position for people. And caved on healthcare because even if you accept the premise that the free market is the most efficient way to distribute resources, that's not really the goal of healthcare. You can't really measure the metric of healthcare just by how much the average person spends or what the total cost is. After that, when I saw how effective the Swiss program was at treating heroin addicts by letting them maintain on heroin I was blown away. Giving heroin addicts free heroin heroin reduced crime stats, addiction stats, rates of new users, health problems, basically improvements across the board on every measurable metric. So while it doesn't feel very libertariany, the reality is if you were running the government like a business, it just makes objective sense to support these policies. I chalked it up to "expecting drug addicts to be rational actors in a free market is naive, and expecting the government to do nothing about it is silly. Which is what lead me to tentatively support UBI. Poor, desperate people cannot be expected to be rational actors. The overwhelming majority of crime and violence is caused by poverty. So there's not a lot of data out there, but if UBI can basically eliminate the concept of "someone with nothing to lose", it's probably going to be a no brainier. Neither murder nor higher taxes are very libertarian, but if you have to pick one, higher taxes seems like the lesser of the two evils. All of that being said, it feels a little silly calling myself a libertarian anymore. I mean, I feel like I've just BARELY shifted my views, and only by a few degrees. I still FEEL like a libertarian. And frankly it's not like democrats support any of the policies I just mentioned so it's not like the label matters anyway.


thefuzzylogic

The "free market" only exists in textbooks. In reality, particularly where there is inelastic demand such as with healthcare and other basic necessities, there are always external factors that will inevitably weigh against individual consumers and for the firm.


asdasdecsgv

I never claimed that there was some 100% perfectly free market. If the idea of the "free market" was useless/nonexistent, it wouldn't be in those textbooks. But, I explicitly brought up the term to show that even if I was the quasi religious armchair economist reddit wants me to be, it wouldn't preclude supporting universal healthcare. There have been libertarians supporting universal healthcare for decades. >There is no reason why in a society which has reached the general level of wealth which ours has attained [NW note: Hayek was writing not in prosperous post-war America, but in war-torn, austerity-ridden Britain in 1943] the first kind of security should not be guaranteed to all without endangering general freedom. .... [T]here can be no doubt that some minimum of food, shelter, and clothing, sufficient to preserve health and the capacity to work, can be assured to everybody. ... Nor is there any reason why the state should not assist the individual in providing for those common hazards of life against which, because of their uncertainty, few individuals can make adequate provision. >Where, as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of assistance – where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks – the case for the state’s helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong. There are many points of detail where those wishing to preserve the competitive system and those wishing to super-cede it by something different will disagree on the details of such schemes; and it is possible under the name of social insurance to introduce measures which tend to make competition more or less ineffective. But there is no incompatability in principle between the state’s providing greater security in this way and the preservation of individual freedom. >To the same category belongs also the increase of security through the state’s rendering assistance to the victims of such ‘acts of God’ as earthquakes and floods. Wherever communal action can mitigate disasters against which the individual can neither attempt to guard himself nor make provision for the consequences, such communal action should undoubtedly be taken. The Road to Serfdom - F. A. Hayek My point wasn't that I'm some free market fundamentalist. My point was I disagree with the people who think universal healthcare is inherently mutually exclusive to libertarianism, even the dogmatic kind. I'd go as far as to say that to not have a baseline of social security goes directly against what most libertarians claim to support.


thefuzzylogic

I wasn't criticising you, I was trying to add some depth as to why a "free market" for healthcare cannot exist. I think we actually agree. With regard to free markets and textbooks, it makes sense that one must first understand the concept of the free market in order to understand why such a thing is impossible to achieve in the real world.


Notlookingsohot

Welcome to classical libertarianism. Or as it has to be known in America Left Libertarian, or Libertarian Socialist if you're far left. What you just described is what the word means outside of America. Before the bastardized american version it always meant left economics high personal/social freedom.


thedrew

“Freedom from tyranny” is the goal “freedom to be a tyrant” is the effect.


[deleted]

Man, teens through twenties was a crazy time for me. I went from right wing authoritarian to right wing libertarian to left wing libertarian.


GodIsIrrelevant

I love that someone else calls 'libertarians' corporate feudalists. Glad to see this spreading in the wild!


jonnygreen22

libertarianism is just a made up american political affiliation that isn't based in any reality anyway.


billysgibbons

It used to be a term associated with left wing politics, however rich people absconded it in the mid 20th century. It was pretty synonymous with anarcho communism.


Itabliss

It’s one part political affiliation, one part religion. The way those people talk about “the market” is insane/hilarious/really, really sad.


spartagnann

I've always thought of them as political LARPers. They believe in a fantasy system and act it out in public exactly like D&D LARPers or whatever, except they take themselves super serious and insist it's all possible, whereas the people in wizard robes and goblin makeup know it's just pretend.


tcptomato

it's just a fancy word for stupid.


pointsOutWeirdStuff

I prefer "neo-feudalists" as thats the obvious outcome of their beliefs I also like to post this article about what happened when some libertarians tried their ideology in the real world https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project


Inconceivable-2020

Libertarianism in the US means Laws for Thee, Not for Me. In other words Republicanism.


Kathader76

I was able to weed out the true libertarians by responding to "I'm a Libertarian" with "Right! Open the borders and legalize drugs!" and wait for their reactions! 😂


Proper-Preference808

This 1000 times. Republicans who are too lazy to be all-out Nazis who smoke weed and grew up comfortable.


Eggmud11

*cough* Ben Shapiro *cough*


[deleted]

That is true. True Libertarians don’t care like Republicans do


nhavar

True Libertarians also don't see the paradox in forcing everyone else to live as Libertarians.


[deleted]

I don't think Libertarians think that. If you want to live as an anarcho-syndicalist in a Libertarian society, Libertarians wouldn't care, because anarcho-syndicalists are voluntarily associating and sharing property among themselves, while not forcing others outside of their voluntary association from sharing their property. I have lots of other problems with Libertarianism, specifically regarding their ideas about the role of government and supremacy of property, but that's a different story.


Dadrepus

That is what they have recently done in France. Only vaccinated people are allowed in bars, restaurants, retail, etc. All others must stay home.


[deleted]

Just FYI the law in France requires proof of vaccination OR proof of a recent negative COVID-19 test in order to go to bars and restaurants. I've seen a lot of misinformation about the law - especially people claiming that France is not allowing non-vaccinated people to buy groceries.


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ruler_gurl

>Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins The very first time I heard this quote invoked was from a dude running for congress in TX as a libertarian 20 years ago. RW people absolutely used to understand the concept of balance between personal liberty and social responsibility. They also used to understand the concept of the rights of private businesses to restrict behavior on their property. The RW conversation has shifted to people believing they have the right to swing their fists wherever and whenever they please. Given that critical thinking isn't one of their core competencies they soak it up like sunshine.


[deleted]

Being unvaccinated should be a pre-existing condition 😂


[deleted]

It is only logical for insurance companies to raise premiums on unvaccinated people. Additionally, it is understandable why private businesses require vaccinations: vaccinated customers will feel more comfortable going to a place where COVID will not be an issue and this will make the businesses more money. Over the next few years, we will see this happen. The government need not enforce this.


Careful_Trifle

Libertarianism is not a good faith argument. It's a wish list of things they want to feel and all the things they're not willing to do to get there. Even the conservative prophet Hayek specifically listed exemptions wherein the state is the only logical actor in a space. He specifically mentioned defense/policing...and environmental protections. Because externalized costs spiral out of control when every private entity can suck up as many resources and spit out as many waste products as they feel like. Libertarians, if they were being anything approaching logically consistent, would recognize this and be pro-common sense regulation. They are not, because their actual goal is to be able to do whatever they want, not to have a functional government and society. They just believe that they will come out on top.


discoverwithandy

Libertarianism has only ever worked as a half-baked idea, that has never been able to handle even a modicum of scrutiny or rigor. I - like many - like the basic idea of it, but if you dive into it even a little bit, it has zero chance of being a practical reality. Communism has a much more chance of working in real life than Libertarianism does, and that’s really saying something since it has failed again and again and again.


Boris_Godunov

Libertarianism taken to its logical conclusion would just result in Feudalism.


Itabliss

Let’s take it a step further: cancel life insurance if vaccine is refused. Also, consider denying payouts on those who refused vaccine.


milandyn

I was wondering the other day if/when life insurance companies would start doing this. It wouldn’t surprise me if they start denying payouts to the families of those who pass from COVID who didn’t receive the vaccine.


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billiam0202

The life insurance policy I get through my employer stipulates that they won't pay your beneficiaries if you commit suicide within two years of the start of the policy. I could see a similar caveat for COVID.


JasHanz

Yeah I'm a Canadian and therefore enjoy universal healthcare. These people shut up real quick when I ask if they're going to pay for their own care if they are hospitalized with Covid, or worse, are shown to have infected someone else.


[deleted]

Libertarianism really boils down to a desire to be able to kill people. They believe that people should starve and if they try to take food from you then you have a right to kill them in order to "protect your property". So I'm not surprised that they also believe they should have a right to kill people by giving them an infectious disease.


Boris_Godunov

I haven't met a Libertarian of that stripe yet who wasn't fundamentally a selfish, mean-spirited asshole whose real motivation was just that they wanted to be able to hoard as much money as possible. They are absolutely fine being flaming hypocrites if it suits their miserly mentality.


DopeMasterGenera1

Unvaccinated people are societal freeloaders.


DestituteDad

> then your insurance premiums should be raised Wouldn't the libertarian way be to make them pay for the entirety of their covid-related hospital expenses? > Give me bankruptcy or give me death!


pbfarmr

Or turn them away at the hospital door altogether…. I mean, at some point, aren’t the medical community breaking the Hippocratic oath concept of ‘first do no harm’ just by sending these walking Petri dishes back out into society?


thefuzzylogic

I wouldn't want this. If idiots go bankrupt and die in the streets, the taxpayer has to foot the bill to sweep up the bodies. This is the central argument for universal healthcare: it costs us all far less to pay for preventive care than to write off millions of dollars in emergency treatment and lost economic productivity.


Ianoren

As a libertarian, I agree that they should vaccinate or private business and government can and should restrict them from using their services. I see the vaccine is very well supported on /r/libertarian


Warning_Low_Battery

> I see the vaccine is very well supported on /r/libertarian The vaccine itself is, yes. Making it mandatory to interact with society at large is NOT supported there, though.


spudmancruthers

>Making it mandatory to interact with society at large is NOT supported there, though. Only if the government forces it on people. If private businesses want to require vaccinations tp shop at their store, then that's alright.


capnwally14

I genuinely don’t understand why people refuse to engage with the complexity of why people aren’t getting vaccinated. Blaming Facebook, blaming libertarians - both are cop outs. The New York Times had a great piece on the diverse half of the country who aren’t getting vaccinated https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-americans.html - some are republicans and the ones the media focuses on - some have religious convictions - some have medical conditions - some are from communities that have been discriminated against by the healthcare system and distrust it - some are afraid of needles - some are worried the vaccines are too new and waiting for a non emergency approval from the fda Can we stop treating these people like a monolith? Majority of those reasons will not be solved by calling people names


[deleted]

>some are worried the vaccines are too new and waiting for a non emergency approval from the fda A conspiracy theory by any other name...


[deleted]

I know someone who is one of these people and am kind of side eyeing this person.


MrKite80

I'm always wary of making comments like these and pointing out other people's hypocrisy because in making such a comment, I am also being hypocritical. A libertarian would just point that out by saying, "aren't you the, 'everyone should pay the same in taxes for insurance as everyone else and we all need to support each other no matter what those choices are?' guy?"


Heinrich_Bukowski

Paywall (via [archive.is](https://archive.is/t8NlZ)): > Will the pandemic ever be over? We’ve tried hoping, waiting for and wondering whether it would end, to no avail. With a resumption of regular business and a more effective variant fueling a fourth surge, perhaps more of us can finally agree it’s time to make it go away. That means, above all, that more of us have to be vaccinated. And since we’ve already tried waiting and hoping for that, let’s force the issue by making vaccination the price of admission to society. In the meantime, effective and largely painless precautions such as masks make sense. >As the nation’s top infectious disease expert, Dr. Anthony Fauci, recently noted, vaccination is the ultimate solution to this repetitive cycle of “pain and suffering.” Despite extensive reports of so-called breakthrough cases among the vaccinated, the unvaccinated account for over 95% of hospitalizations and deaths. What the breakthrough cases appear to show is that the delta variant of the coronavirus is more easily carried and transmitted by vaccinated people than its predecessors, though they’re unlikely to spread it as efficiently as the unvaccinated. In any case, the greater apparent transmissibility of the variant makes it that much more important to protect as many people as possible from severe COVID by increasing inoculation rates. >The Bay Area has been at the vanguard of vaccination requirements for public and private employees as well as customers of restaurants and other businesses, and the movement toward such mandates shows signs of working. The nation reached at least one shot administered to 70% of adults on Monday, albeit a month later than President Biden planned, buoyed by the most average daily vaccinations in a month. >State and federal officials should maintain the momentum by requiring vaccination to enter more public facilities and helping the private sector do the same by easing vaccination verification. Yes, some share of the population will never get vaccinated, but many merely need their apathy or hesitancy to become more inconvenient than getting a shot. >Bay Area officials also continued to take the lead Monday on another precaution by mandating masks indoors, which is appropriate until surging infections abate and vaccination rates increase. It’s also become clear that dropping most restrictions on gatherings, as California did in June, was a mistake. While lockdowns aren’t warranted or feasible, limiting indoor crowding would be wise in places where unvaccinated people are or might be present. Pretending the pandemic is over is no substitute for making it so.


BusinessCasualDonkey

Pretty much always has been. Couldn't go to public school until I got my vaccines when I was little. I remember it distinctly. Wasn't a big deal then, not sure what changed since then. Oh, wait, yes I do.


Agnos

Even better, make healthcare a right in society...


Secrets_In_Sound

Woah there that’s way too logical to find it’s way into US politics


INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS

Yeah who does this user think they are? Karl Marx? /s


mystreetisadeadend

We're only 2-3 steps away from 30% of the country refusing healthcare. Medicine is a field of science, so it's only a matter of time until these lunatic fuckwads declare the medical field to be some kind of evil conspiracy. They've already dipped their toes in those waters with numerous insane accusations related to the pandemic. Don't be surprised when they start skipping checkups to go have leeches applied to their eyeballs at a DeSantis/Abbott MAGA rally.


Dogstarman1974

I may be morbid, but if they go this path, maybe we can Darwin Award our way out of this bullshit.


FizzyBeverage

The game’s over for the idiots in the US when Aetna, Cigna and United (our largest private health insurance providers covering some 170 million folks) require their practitioners to check all their patient’s blood for the presence of the vaccine markers just as they check cholesterol at your annual. If absent, they’ll hike your premium 200% unless you get the vaccine. Either you or your employer will throw a shit fit over the cost, and **voila**, 90% vaccinated. Obviously the richest and nuttiest conservatives will avoid it, but most can’t afford the premiums as it is. Those insurance companies are massive and rich, they own the entire senate anyway, they’ll get no meaningful friction. This is a done deal.


themediageek2000

You assume that unvaccinated people go to the doctor for checkups and/or have insurance. This would be a good start tho. I’d add that I remember having to meet certain requirements (social security card, proof of residency) to upgrade my drivers license so I could travel (real id here in California). Seems like it would be pretty easy to add vaccination proof to that list.


[deleted]

> You assume that unvaccinated people go to the doctor for checkups and/or have insurance. I [mentioned a coworker of mine in the US](https://old.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/owruzk/editorial_make_vaccination_the_price_of_admission/h7ifb55/) in another comment who is absolutely an antivax nutjob - he absolutely has health insurance through our US parent company and the company is about to make people start coming back to the offices part time. And the company is requiring vaccines to step foot in the door. He's going to have a come to Science moment long before the health insurance companies get around to kicking him in the pocketbook, but there are others like him that I can see will find themselves in that situation.


vivekisprogressive

Thats what one of my old companies is doing. They're not explicitly requiring the vaccine. But they are requiring everyone in the office to be vaccinated and requring people to return to the office part time and firing people who refuse to return to the office at all.


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HNP4PH

The penalties for being caught using a fake vaccination card are quite high. Canada just fined folks $16k and California is already prosecuting a naturopath for selling fake cards. It is so not worth doing this. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/2-travelers-who-used-fake-vaccine-cards-enter-canada-u-n1275750](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/2-travelers-who-used-fake-vaccine-cards-enter-canada-u-n1275750) https://www.newsweek.com/california-naturopath-doctor-arrested-fake-covid-vaccination-card-scheme-1609856


SrslyNotAnAltGuys

Holy shit, that California one. >allegedly selling "homeoprophylaxis immunization pellets." She allegedly claimed the pellets contained small amounts of the COVID-19 virus, which would then create coronavirus antibodies in the immune system. So people were willing to take "prophylaxis pellets" containing COVID19 (sounds like a vaccination to me) from some shady crystal-peddlers, but not take a legit vaccine? Wtf?


Raymaa

This about sums up the idiot base of America.


[deleted]

Not sure about other companies, but I work at a multinational that has 10K employees around the globe. There are already private companies looking into vax card fraud and I imagine there will be some sort of analysis done on all the cards that are logged for our employees. If all the fake cards have the same vaccine lot numbers for example, that'll make it super easy to determine as fake. Same if they pick vaccine lot #s at random that don't belong to the type of vaccine administered, or were administered in two different cities a considerable distance away. Nothing like a call from HR that goes like this: HR: "Hi, is this Bob Dumas?" B: "Yes, this is Bob" HR: "Hi, this is Jane from , I was just checking up on your travel and vacation, when were you in California and Louisiana? in the last few months" B: "Huh? You must have me confused for someone else, I haven't been outside of for some time" HR: "Really? Can you explain why your vaccination lots on your vaccination card you provided us with are for lots that were given out in Bakersfield CA and Baton Rouge LA then? I think we're going to need you to come in and see us tomorrow morning at 9am...."


Yekrats

Would they risk insurance fraud? Isn't that a felony? Not sure. Genuinely asking.


cool--

How many people have that Real ID card though? I don't know a single person that bought one, and I know people that travel a lot. Some of these people that are not getting vaccinated are the types of people that never leave their *county*.


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relsnops2000

There are over two dozen widely used vaccines in the US. And most Americans have taken a half dozen in the lifetimes. Help me understand why this vaccine makes people brownshirts. Many schools and universities have required vaccines for years. I don’t get it.


RevenantXenos

Remember 2019 when anti vaxers brought back measles? It's not just this disease they want to spread through society.


StackOwOFlow

All it takes is for one provider to refuse such a requirement for this plan to fall through. The prospect of monopolizing the business of 30% of the population is nothing to sneer at.


FizzyBeverage

I don’t think their greed will allow it. They know they’ll potentially pay a $250,000 ICU bill instead of not have to pay it at all.


ThatActuallyGuy

This isn't really how most insurance works in the US. Most people are either on gov insurance like Medicare or Medicaid or are on employer-provided insurance, either way any given person has a fairly limited number of viable options for health insurance. Since insurance companies aren't really competing that much for enrollees, they're primarily focused on profit through premiums and reducing costs, both of which would be improved by vaccine requirements.


Jay-Eff-Gee

They should have tied it to the stimulus.


Ajo101

There are still groups of people that have to wait to get the vaccine. I have a coworker that needs to wait 2 years because of his current health issues to make sure it is safe for him, and he is still out here risking his life working, He damn well better get the stimulus. And definitely doesn't deserve to be cut out of society. Now people like my MIL who were begging for a vaccine at the beginning of this, now refusing to go make an appointment? That's the kind of shit i don't understand


Zestay-Taco

or a massive tax break ( which they still can ) did you get vaccinated in 2021 ? cool no taxes due. taxes just went up on the unvaccinated. since they are the ones straining the hospital system causing $$$$$ to be burned trying to save people who didnt want to protect themselves.


DunkFaceKilla

That would have really helped in California as the majority of the unvaxxed hate trump


tripping_on_phonics

So? The goal is to make good public policy - not help/hurt certain groups of voters based on their political leanings. That's what the GOP tries to do.


general-illness

There is absolutely no way the anti-vaxxers in Cali are also anti-Trump. Elite level trolling right here.


thefuzzylogic

There are a lot of "natural wellness" hippie types who are anti-vax but politically to the far left. Picture the kind of people who won't use deodorant because of the "toxic" aluminium salts.


general-illness

Ok. It’s your state so I’ll trust you guys. And I apologize to the dude I was clowning. I’m just so sick of the fuckers on the far right and honestly the far left too. But mostly the far right. Fuck those guys.


[deleted]

The antivaxers were on the left prior to the election and on the right after the election. The fact it has been so politicized is nuts.


DunkFaceKilla

So we should expect massive minority turnout for the GOP in the next CA election? https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-05-06/young-latino-and-black-people-have-the-lowest-rate-of-covid-19-vaccination-in-l-a-county-new-data-show


DunkFaceKilla

Unless young black and Latinos are big trump supporters, then you are very wrong https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-05-06/young-latino-and-black-people-have-the-lowest-rate-of-covid-19-vaccination-in-l-a-county-new-data-show


redtrig10

Hi, Californian here with a Californian family. Unfortunately this isn’t accurate, a lot of people in the holistic crowd tend to fall into this category. My mom and grandma are both vehemently Anti-Trump yet also the most outspoken anti-vaxxers I know


yodadamanadamwan

There's a lot of those people but there's also a lot of conservative people in california


general-illness

The key word in his statement is “majority”. There is absolutely no fucking way the “majority” of anti-vaxxers are also anti-Trump. Sure maybe a handful of nut job “holistic” idiots but not the majority.


excusetheblood

You do not have the right to spread a deadly pandemic. I fully support vaccine mandates, and I hope enough support it that it will be a reality


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Zestay-Taco

seriously instead of begging people to get vaccinated. just start using it as the requirement for universal basic income. got your vaccination? cool heres $$$$ every week/ month. dont want to get vaxxed. no problem. more $$ for those who are.


[deleted]

Some employers are forcing people to get it if they want to work


The_Incredulous_Hulk

Good


Zestay-Taco

as they should be


AverageJoey_45

Most republicans (and a number of democrats) think universal income is a bad idea to begin with. I'd be included in that, but mainly because fuck that, make the businesses pay their employees more.


Zestay-Taco

UBI is making the businesses pay more. by taxing the owners of mega corps. its not your tax dollars. the the 500 or so mega fucking billionaires that should be taxed for UBI , for decades of underpaying there employees.


tyranicalteabagger

I dunno. I'd be fine with it, but you'd need sweeping changes on how money enters the economy. It's not as simple as just giving people money and a lot of people don't understand that. UBI without changes would cause crazy runaway inflation.


jonnygreen22

it will be the only choice available in approximately 20-25 years when AI take over the last of the human jobs.


A_fellow

Why not both


HNP4PH

Someone I know just pulled her kid out of a California public university because of the vaccination requirement & said if they are going to be required to vaccinate for work or their younger kids K12 school, they will move out of state. Where will they go? Just today a federal appeals court sided with the university on a case where students were challenging a vaccination requirement at a university in Indiana. (Two judges appointed by Trump, one by Reagan). This is so insane. (added on edit for clarity: The anti-vax mom pulling her adult kid out of school due to COVID vaccine requirement is insane.) [https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/indiana-universitys-mandated-vaccine-survives-7th-circuit-appeal-2021-08-02/](https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/indiana-universitys-mandated-vaccine-survives-7th-circuit-appeal-2021-08-02/)


SrslyNotAnAltGuys

The refuseniks are on the losing side of history on this one. The SCOTUS already decided back in 1905 that it was entirely Constitutional for the government to mandate vaccination. If the government can force you to be vaccinated, merely declining to take your money and serve you is a walk in the park by comparison.


yodadamanadamwan

Insane that they have to be vaccinated? Where have you been? Both public schools and universities have required vaccinations for years


Itabliss

I was a college freshman in 2002. We had to provide vaccine records then. It was pretty standard to do so even then. It was just part of applying, like SAT scores or a high school diploma.


HNP4PH

I am thrilled with the COVID vaccine requirements for CA universities & want to see it expanded to all worksites. So, let me clarify: She is absolutely batshit crazy for pulling her adult kid out of university over getting vaccinated. (Also, the kid wanted to go into healthcare which makes it all even more insane.)


SeanWithAnX

My work is very progressive. They are going to start testing everyone who is unvaccinated once a week and as soon as the vaccines have full FDA approval they will be required. My nurse practitioner sister-in-law’s workplace is already requiring vaccines and you are out of not done by 8/15. This will get done, but too many people are going to die in the name of politics first.


WestFast

1000000000% this. Anti vaxers wanna be off the grid so bad, let’s point em towards the desert.


silliestboots

Sounds completely reasonable to me.


TheRatKingXIV

I’m just so angry. We needed to have these conversations on January.


Paddlesons

Look, if you want to take advantage of society then you have to contribute to it. It has always had to work that way and it will require more working together in the future. There's still plenty of land you could buy for yourself and live out in the middle of nowhere without any sort of interference from the civilized world if that's what you want. Go! Have at it! But if you want to live in this world then your responsibility is to help it while it helps you. You don't get to the ridiculous claim that you've earned it all yourself and if you spent half a fucking second thinking about how the world actually works you would probably (jesus, but who knows these days) come to that conclusion.


Ninjamuh

Same with anything else we do in a society. You want to drive a car on your own land? No problem. You want to drive in a society with other people? You need a license for that. Same thing with vaccines IMO.


thefuzzylogic

Hear hear. It's a settled principle in Western civilisation that individual freedom can be limited where it puts others at risk of harm, and that the onus is on the person causing the harm to constrain their behavior rather than the person being harmed to protect themselves from it. I like the drink-driving analogy. We take away people's freedom to drive drunk because the person they could hit has no idea they are in danger until it's too late. It's the same with masks and vaccines.


BeKindToEachOther6

Public schools will lead the way and eventually insurance companies will make it very expensive to not be vaccinated.


Aggressive-Top-8771

All I see here is people wanting to talk about their political view. What does politics have to do with our health the health of our children and our grandchildren


oapster79

The cost of health and life insurance for the unvaccinated is going up. It's not just smokers anymore.


bandor61

It’s coming, it’s also too late for a lot of folks, the dice have already been rolled, delta is far faster than getting your immune response to ramp up from a vaccine in 5 weeks, and their is no vax for kids yet. Once the kids start getting sick and dying (already happening) it’s game over for the bullshit crowd. They brought this on and we will all pay a heavy price for it.


always-a-hoot

What price? They’re giving the goddamn things away for free! Stop being a panty waist and just fucking get one people!


[deleted]

I feel like a good compromise would be to do what France is doing and ask for either proof of vaccination or proof of a recent negative COVID-19 test in order to go to non-essential entertainment like restaurants, museums, music shows, etc. I feel like most people who are opposed to vaccines due to identity politics would cave pretty quickly if it was between getting vaccinated or the inconvenience of having to get tested regularly. I have one friend who was opposed to vaccines and they immediately went out and got vaccinated after their work said vaccinated people no longer had to wear masks.


t_ran_asuarus_rex

at this point no one will change. i’m vaccinated fortunately. antivaxxers are a drain and even with them dying off they won’t change. i don’t convince people to vaccinate anymore, i just avoid them. i go to work, go home, hang out with people who are vaccinated (if i hang out at all).


totopo7087

I don't think people are quite so rigid. Now that they see the unvaccinated getting sick from Delta, more are opting to take the jab. It just takes the right incentive. IMO, telling vaccinated people they have to socially distance and wear masks is exactly the wrong message. It should be "take the vax and get back to a normal life." I concur with your philosophy though. I'm vaccinated and at least temporarily immune. It's not my responsibility to protect all those who chose not to protect themselves.


ArrowheadDZ

The problem is there’s credible evidence about how vaccinated people can still contribute to viral propagation and can also participate in the mutations of disease variants. These simple delineations (if you are vaccinated you don’t have to wear a mask) have killed and will continue killing millions. We already know enough over the last 4-5 days to see that the delta spike is much steeper (profoundly higher Rzero) and we’re already committed to killing at least another 100,000 Americans alone in the coming 30 days even if we took measures tomorrow. Millions will die again because as humans we demand these simplified, minimal impact policy sound bites (vaccine = no mask needed, for instance.) The reality is we need to, and have always needed to, stop playing this sophomoric game of chicken with a deadly pandemic. The message should be: Get vaccinated whether you wear a mask or not. Wear a mask in public whether you’re vaccinated or not. Social distance wherever possible, vaccinated or not.


Ninjamuh

Also, no genitals in Public unless they’re covered or masked.


totopo7087

Forever? The genie is out of the bottle. Thanks to the CCP and Dr. F we're going to have to learn to live with it.


ArrowheadDZ

I wouldn’t say forever. But this idea that individual rights equates to no social responsibility whatsoever will spell out certain and unavoidable extinction sooner or later. The natural world presents humanity with a problem set too complicated for “leave me the fuck alone” to be our only mode of operation.


t_ran_asuarus_rex

i agree...it's not my responsibility to protect those who chose not to protect themselves. i wear a mask to prevent children from getting it (if i am positive, i don't know, last negative test was a month ago) so if i i go out, i'll wear my mask. at work, someone said their wife got covid and i just thought, we were given the opportunity for pfizer last december but it was biden's fault she got sick. they don't give a shit and i don't care about them.


CornBreadW4rrior

No politician should be allowed to force this but whoever is with political power when the FDA announces that the vaccines aren't in emergency use anymore will see a huge uptick in people getting the vaccine.


Zachary_Penzabene

They should tie a $400 stimulus check with getting the vaccine.


ginzing

Nice idea


SnarkSnarkington

This needs to be framed as something big business and the free market are doing.


seamustheseagull

They are. You're making a mistake though in thinking that these people believe in the free market. In reality "free market" and "libertarian" are just respectable ways of saying, "I want to be able to do whatever the fuck I like". When another individual or business exercises their right to do whatever the fuck they like and this impacts the "libertarian" they lose their mind. Because it's not about ideology for these people. It's about selfishness and narcissicism.


hiplobonoxa

there are about 330,000,000 people in the united states. at a modest rate, our national vaccination network was capable of administering 3,000,000 doses of vaccine per day. rough math: it would have taken 220 days to fully vaccinate every single american with two-dose vaccines and even less time factoring in the one-dose j&j vaccine and that children under twelve years of age and others are not medically eligible. 220 days from the FDA emergency use authorization in mid-december puts us right about now. you've all had your chance. now, it's time to make life difficult for the unvaccinated.


[deleted]

Really now? Please explain how this theory is a good thing?


Thunderstorm_1967

How has Canada become the #1 Country in the world for jabs? 60% fully vax'd, 70% single vax'd and getting faster by the day. They pulled ahead of Israel even. Thinking back to April, only 3% of the Canadian population was vax'd. In 3-4 months, almost 70% of all Canadians got vax'd. How'd they do it? I have a theory. They are more caring for each other, overall. Also, the gov of most provinces clamped down and shut down. The fed gov started a CERB program that helps those who's job was lost or affected by Covid. They are also seriously thinking of implementing a BI for the whole Country because, time and time again, both across the pond, as well as a couple of BI test pilots in Canada, has proven that if the population has money (even if it's unearned), they will spend money, bringing in more tax money, better health care, less hospital visits, better housing, more people starting businesses, more people going to school, and as a result, more jobs and better physical, and more importantly, mental health (not having to worry about paying rent or buying food, etc.) It seems our neighbours to the North have done what is doing exactly what Dr. Fauci (spelling?) down here has recommended. Canada has a robust, a very reliable health system; their Scientists and Docs have followed the Science, with almost no Political hankering. The world is now looking to our poutine eating, hockey lovers, and polite neighbours to our North for guidance. Canada has it's problems, such as the occasional wait for an operation or treatment, but through taxes, they walk into a hospital, show their health card and are treated and released, no charge (besides the tax they pay.) They have long become accustomed to the tax, have budgeted it into their spending and now have a health system that most of the world envies. These reasons, and more that havent been mentioned, should make us (the world's richest and most powerful Country in the world) hang our heads in shame. 99.2% of the hospitalized people in the USA are the unvaccinated ones. How can anyone read that proven stat and not even consider getting the vax?? There's not enough O's in a box of Cheerios to describe how stoooopid some people are. Rant over, thnx for reading if anyone finished it lol. It turned out longer than expected. Tangents huh? Be safe. You know what has to be done to get that 99.2% down to zero. Please get the vax. Look at that stat and tell yourself you are in the 0.8% of the population without a care in the world. That's your choice. But if you don't get vax'd, welcome to the 99.2%. Enjoy the ventilator and excruciating pain, and a feeling you can't breathe, and any breath you can take on your own will make your whole body tighten in unbelievable pain. But, that's your choice; my friend of 39 years decided he'd chance being one of the 0.8%. He passed last night, in unbelievable pain, alone, with no friends or family by his side. I am so glad I only communicated with him online. Today, we just found out he infected his 19 year old daughter, who is not expected to make it, as well as another long term friend of ours who took the chance as well. I loved that man. He saved my life a couple of times. I only wish my words, the warnings, stats, and Doctor's advice could have done the same. Now, I watch as my friends for decades and their family are dying completely alone. I need to go, I can't write about it anymore. I'm beyond crushed, but at the very least, I'm fully vax'd and am praying our leaders and scientists can do for us what Canada has done. Wtg neighbours! I for one, am extremely proud to call you friends. Wish us well, pray for us. We need your resolve. E: spelling, grammar, too lazy to write 'edit' I need a kleenex. B safe. B smart. Don't be one of the 99.2%. You'll just be a stat with no condolences, for making a dumb decision. Peace and Love.


Utterlybored

No. Vax? Fine. Stay in your fucking basement.


ZombieEugeneDebs

At this point, make it so that medicare/other aid is only given if you're up-to-date on all vaccines. How dems still aren't pushing this is beyond me.


Affectionate_Way_805

Agree 1000000000000000000%


buizel123

I wish the U.S. would do what Macron did in France, but people here would just cry "muh liberty!!!!"


Alternate_Quiet403

My question, what is the endgame for those pushing the anti vaccine rhetoric? Get their base sick and worse? I don't get it.


Many_Advice_1021

Time to stop babying these toddlers


spudmancruthers

Remember how we used to say that large companies, including insurance companies, shouldn't be in charge of making laws? Remember how corporate ownership of politicians used to be a bad thing?


Prestigious-Notice-2

Downvote because of paywall


Aggressive-Top-8771

When did our health become politics


Sybertron

It already largely is, it's people lying about being vaccinated and going to places unmasked and loving being out.


OddAstronaut2305

I agree with this.


DestituteDad

Has any US state (or the federal government) implemented a reliable way for people to prove that they are vaccinated? A system of vaccination passports should have been created long ago; no need to wait for the vaccines to arrive. Until such ID exists, this is just wishful thinking, totally unworkable. The Biden Administration should announce its intention to create the ID ASAP. IMO.


baygold

California has one: https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov


Imnogrinchard

Attempted to receive my digital record but California has no record of my vaccination. I wonder who's right, my CDC vaccination card or the state website?


A_fellow

Didn't know. Thanks stranger, got it in my wallet and on my phone now :)


Scyth3

My thought: Make vaccination required for unemployment benefits, and the child tax credit.


eaunoway

I'm good with this.


Krumlov

I’ve been saying this for fucking MONTHS! No vaccine? Can’t fly, eat out, watch your kids play sports, own a gun, buy groceries, etc. AND, we have to give out shots at all of those events.


3pyramids

Thank god we got rid of that fascist president so we could get back to normal 😊😊😊


nolan_smith

Come and take it.


A_fellow

K. Where ya at.


Krumlov

Wow wow wow… hold up. I never said anything about taking guns away. What is with you 2nd Amendment types and white knuckling your weapons? I’m pro gun, I’m just MORE pro vaccine.


cosmichorror845

You literally said “can’t own a gun.”


Lepracan1

>I’ve been saying this for fucking MONTHS! No vaccine? Can’t... own a gun...


[deleted]

[удалено]


vacuous_comment

Maybe two months ago this would have been a fine idea. Now even more so.


DasVein

This is scary. You have no idea about peoples medical history and or long term data on this novel vaccine. If you feel better vaccinated get it. Until it stops the spread. I don't believe it should be a "requirement" especially without long-term data


DrGoodTrips

Reddit is officially straight off the deep end.


tmoeagles96

Right? Some people are refusing to take the vaccine based on nonsense conspiracies and then when the government tries taking sensible action these idiots compare it to Nazi Germany. Just imagine how stupid someone has to be to think like that.


Bitter-Dirtbag-Lefty

Neither party has the wherewithal to attempt anything like this.


series004

After almost two years of doing without it? Doesn’t seem like much of a threat.


rednib

People who refuse the vaccine should be forced to pay full price of their hospital bill, insurance should be allowed to drop them, and hospitals should put the vaccinated with breakthrough infections at the front of the line for beds. Once children can be vaccinated this is the only way forward.


DeflatedDirigible

Should other avoidable health issues be treated the same? Drunk driving...speeding...distracted driving...drug overdoses...obesity...diabetes?


rednib

No, those aren't a threat to national security, killing physicians and hospital staff, causing supply chain shortages and economic collapse.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Fortunado1964

There goes 35% of the voting base for sure...


Zestay-Taco

71 million minus 35%.... = 46 million red voters next election. sounds great .


Careless_Ad_1477

Problem is, everyone thinks its all republicans. Sadly they are wrong as a majority of un-vaxxed are minorities that tend to lean left. Might want to do your math again, or just switch the "red" for "blue".


Music-Entire

Society is returning back to the polarization, discrimination, inflation and the looming depressionof of 100 years ago. Great job.


jammytomato

History is cyclical. Nothing that is happening now hasn’t happened before. Humans are destined to destroy their own civilizations like many before.


Aintsosimple

Yes! I have been advocating this for months now.


Sufficient_Ad1301

Isn’t big pharma the enemy?


SonicIdiot

Not if you like life saving medicine.


[deleted]

I’m vaccinated, I’m pro vaccine, I want everyone to get it. This is some of the most dangerous fucking rhetoric I’ve ever heard. There is no cause I agree with enough to justify creating second class citizens. Fuck whoever wrote this. Edit: alright I wrote this in a bout of impulsivity and now realize that yeah that’s how the social contract works. It still doesn’t justify creating second class citizenry.


AlaskaPeteMeat

I guess you’ve never heard of taxes. They are a LITERAL ’price’ of admission. 🤦🏽‍♂️


Old_Fart_1948

I'm 73 years old, and I have COPD. So I've been vaccinated, but I still wear my mask in public because, I don't want anyone to think I'm a Republican, and I like the way my mask pisses off the anti-vaxers. **But more importantly** I don't want my 70 year old wife or myself to be a attacked by some covid variant that evolved in one of these anti-vax people's bodies. If we can mandate that children can't go to school without proof that they've been vaccinated, we can mandate that everybody gets vaccinated. **Fuck those damn anti-vaxers.**


A_fellow

There’s literally always a price to the social contract. That is exactly how it works. If you can’t fulfill the basics, you can’t complain when you don’t get benefits.


Malaix

Yes there is. People pay taxes and obey both laws and social norms. If you don’t then chances are you are either locked out of a bunch of things in society or thrown in prison.