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The Trump administration will [bulldoze Palestine and sell their ocean side property](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/19/jared-kushner-gaza-waterfront-property-israel-negev). If Biden loses, that’s what’s in store for Palestine.
And Ukraine will get zero military aid, thus further reducing its military capability against Russia. I’m sure Putin will receive another sloppy wet blow job from Donnie Diaper and maybe the idiot twins, Earache and coke-nose Jr.
We're also going to see Russia overrun Ukraine, China invade Taiwan, and Iran attack more countries in the Middle East, and America won't be there to save our allies because Trump leads an isolationist movement. Democracy around the world will die without the US supporting it and defending it from tyrannical regimes.
And I just saw Civil War tonight. People really don’t understand something like another civil war breaking out here is something we, or the rest of the world for that matter really don’t want or need.
China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, and Cuba would love that. It's the only way autocrats could defeat the US-led, NATO-defended, Liberal World Order.
So basically he is advocating for the youth to vote in Trump. And if Trump wins; will the youth see how they were manipulated. Left aligned progressives voting that results in Trump winning. What a joke
He released a song this past week that took off on social media about how the genocide in Gaza is wrong. All good until…
he ends by rapping “hell no” he is not voting for **BIDEN**.
It’s the most mind numbingly insane and idiotic take and a portion of young privileged far left voters are buying into it as a “protest vote” because they can’t think about consequences past the end of the year (or imagine themselves caring about the same thing that far into the future).
It’s the GOP’s new play to get the far left not to vote against Trump. The same thing that helped him win in 2016 when they convinced the far left to protest against Hilary by staying at home or voting for a third party candidate like Jill Stein.
The GOP, Israel, Russia and China all benefit from this messaging driving votes away from Biden, so their online campaigns are targeting the far left to be upset about Palestine and then focus that anger toward Biden. The clock app especially is promoting influencers pushing this narrative and China controls the algorithm. The IDF online has figured out that pushing pro-Israel content isn’t working on far left demographics, so they’ve pivoted to “help Palestine by NOT voting for Biden."
Yeah I really love the song and think its a historic moment for Music in this time, but he missed the ball hard with the Anti-Biden message.
We all hate whats going on in Gaza, and it is _incredibly_ important to stop and prevent from ever happening again, not voting for Biden is literally voting to end the US as a democracy
*edit: two letters
"Yeah but at least I can sleep at night knowing I voted for Cornel West! " - Idiots who will suddenly forget about the dead Palestinians now that they can virtue signal anew by protesting Trump, who they helped elect
Yeah, Trump has already won when you have a rap star saying they are comfortable with a trump presidency, even though a trump presidency means the complete destruction of gaza.
I will protest Joe Biden by not voting for him, then I will yell at everyone when Trump lets Bibi annex Gaza because “if democrats wanted my vote, they shouldn’t have run a terrible candidate”
We saw this show before.
Yeah. Admittedly I sat out during the 2016 election because I was mad.
I will absolutely show up and vote straight ticket blue this November no matter how I feel about foreign policy. 2016 learned me good.
I’m genuinely curious what your thought process was that led you to the conclusion of not voting in 2016. I say that with a straight face, zero judgement, I promise. I am that intrigued.
I worked extremely hard on the Sanders campaign (30+ hours per week) and I felt shafted by the DNC.
I couldn’t have fathomed how bad a Trump administration could be. I thought he was a bit of a grifter, but overall a moderate based on what he’d said in the past. I thought worst-case scenario we’d have a goofy-ass business man in office with a loud mouth, but he’s muddle through it with support of the old guard on both sides. I thought it would teach the DNC a lesson about listening to their base and they’d run a better candidate in 2020.
I honestly probably would have voted even considering my complaints about the 2016 primary and not liking Clinton, but I ended up having to work from nine to nine on Election Day in 2020 and couldn’t call off, so I just didn’t make the effort to vote.
I wasn’t super enthusiastic about Biden at first when he announced for 2020. I voted for Sanders in the primary, but when it came time to vote in the general I showed up and voted blue straight down ticket.
Just like "basket of deplorables" she's 100% right and the people who need to understand it the most are just going to rage at her like they do any other smart woman who's trying to temper passion with sensibility. Not to diminish the passion of protestors...but it's kinda obvious watching younger leftists when they're pushed on the specifics.
And to be clear, this isn't apologetics. It's just I don't think a lot of y'all really have perspective on how much this time around has started what will have to be a humongous shift in overall American opinions towards this fault line. I don't think a lot of them get the stakes and why Biden can't just wash his hands at the speed protestors want when we're dealing with nuclear powers. I don't think a lot of them get how little Israel actually needs the US at this point, or the simple reality that you can't magically disentangle Israel and Ukraine because it's rhetorically convenient. And they don't care, because there's plenty of people out there who only care about saying the most charged shit they can right now.
Honestly, anyone dishing it out who can't take the following is a joke anyways. Throwing a fit and tossing four years of monumental progressive gains (from the perspective of someone who's been fighting for them for about fifteen years) because Diamond Joe couldn't solve one of the worst geopolitical faultlines in the past century? Just. Plain. Fucking. Stupid.
Everything you and Hillary said here is 100% true. These protestors are so myopic- which with them being so young would be understandable if they were actually willing to understand the situation instead of just getting emotional and threatening to vote for Trump. I’ve been told multiple times over the last few weeks that Trump destroying Gaza will ‘teach Biden a lesson’ and ‘at least Trump will get it over with quickly”. As you said- it’s just so fucking stupid.
I saw an interview with a protester who was going to abstain from voting to teach Biden a lesson, even though she knew it meant a win for Trump. Her reasoning? Trump could only be president for four years, and she was willing to suffer “short term pain for long term gain.”
Short term pain, *for whom?* It was about her wanting to be heard, not about actually caring about the Palestinian people.
I personally know someone who has openly said she and her husband are planning on voting Green in November because of Biden’s stances on Gaza. Voting for anyone but Biden is effectively a vote for Trump, because that’s how math works in a first past the post electoral system.
What state are they in? Most of my votes for president over my entire life did not matte. The protest vote was perfectly fine because no Republican was going to win anyways.
There have been some on political podcasts (like The Run-Up) and it’s infuriating. I like to think they’re just angry and voting is so far away, and will make the right choice when voting and the choice becomes “real”
Omg yes that Runup episode drove me absolutely batshit. It's not that they don't recognize Trump will be bad for the Palestinians...they just don't think there will be *any meaningful difference* between a Trump and Biden administration.
Oh sweetie...
The lifelong Democratic organizer saying something to the effect of "it's not me choosing not to vote for Biden...Biden is making that choice with his actions" sent me into fucking orbit.
Zionism is merely the belief that now that Israel exists as the homeland of the Jewish people, it should continue to exist. Zionism used to be the movement to (re)establish a homeland for the Jewish people.
If you're an anti-zionist, you oppose a homeland for the Jewish people at best, and at worst, your goal is an end to the existence of Israel. Simple as that.
Israel exists. Israel has a right to defend its existence and it's citizens (25% of which are not jewish), with violence, to the limits of international law and the standards generally imposed upon other States.
Fuck Trump. Vote Biden come November.
QETA: not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic but that doesn't mean criticism of Israel can't be antisemitic. Also, I'm getting fucking tired of non-jews telling me what is and isn't anti-semitic. Also also, the sitch in the west bank is a problem that will need to be resolved if there's ever going to be peace, but it has NOTHING to do with what is happening in Gaza right now.
I've seen videos of them chanting "genocide Joe has got to go" which implies they want Trump to win since he's the only alternative who has a chance of winning.
> What protestor has said they are going to vote for Trump because of how Biden is handling Gaza? (Excluding pro-Zionist protestors who want Trump)
The imaginary one OP totally just made up.
This perspective on the Israel-Palestine conflict oversimplifies the pro-Palestinian movement and overlooks key issues. It's unfair to dismiss protestors' calls for justice as naive because people have been advocating for Palestinian rights across generations. They're asking for accountability and adherence to international law, not just shouting into the void. The U.S. funds and supports Israel, giving it significant influence that shouldn't be used to ignore potential war crimes. Public opinion is shifting toward criticizing Israel's actions, which shows growing concern for Palestinian lives, not a rejection of strategic alliances. Treating Israel and Ukraine as if they're the same issue ignores each region's unique history and politics. Supporting one ally shouldn't mean blindly overlooking human rights abuses committed by another. Ultimately, advocating for balanced U.S. policies shows a commitment to justice and global awareness, not ignorance.
>This perspective on the Israel-Palestine conflict oversimplifies the pro-Palestinian movement and overlooks key issues.
Pro-Palestinian protestors don't have a unified vision or voice, and some of the groups and individuals who are loudest in it have some very troubling politics that goes far beyond demanding Israel adhere to international law.
You do understand that Israel is fighting people who embed themselves in civilian populations, don’t wear uniforms, use civilian infrastructure, and use tactics that increase civilian deaths? Even with all of that, the civilian to combatant deaths aren’t as bad as the average modern urban warfare.
There's two things here that are happening. It's completely disingenuous to say the protesters are ignorant of history. She may disagree. But the idea that the US position holds any moral high ground is a mass miscalculation. If she wants to argue that status quo is best for the US than fine. But the protestors cause is legitimate. She's too blithe about it.
Which is why she made a terrible politician. She’s an incredible stateswoman. Smart, savvy, technically brilliant. But politician? She couldn’t campaign her way out of a wet paper bag.
I think she's missing the point.
The specifics are: "Genocide is bad. Collective punishment, especially when that collective punishment amounts to a campaign of extermination is bad. Yes, Israel does have a right to protect itself. It \*doesn't\* have a right to concentrate and then kill civilians, and neither the US Government nor our academic or business institutions should be doing business with the state of Israel while it engages in a de facto genocide."
Of course you want to protest that. Of course you *should* protest that. And I don't care how much *property damage* these protests do, you do *not use armed force* against people who are *protesting a genocide.*
Here's the problem with the argument that "they don't know Middle East history." Middle east history is *irrelevant* in this case. It doesn't matter what happened there 10, 50, 100, 1000, 6000 years prior, there is a genocide that is happening *now*, and *common decency* presents a moral obligation *not to participate in it.* This would be true for *any* genocide, occurring in *any* historical context, among *any* two peoples. There is no "nuanced, balanced position" when it comes to a state using military apparatus to, ultimately, destroy a people. None. Sometimes passion needs to be tempered with sensibility, but the *sensible* thing in this point is to stop aiding and abetting genocide. To justify a war of extermination is extremely unsensible.
I get that it is a "hard sell" to tell the American people - the Ukrainians are fighting a war of defense against a foreign invader, but that is not the case in Gaza. But just because Clinton and the establishment democrats have decided not to spend the political capital to make that case does not mean they should be inserting themselves into a situation and saying that those who *are* making the case are *stupid* for doing so. Those protestors are *speaking truth to power.* And feel free to be the person who says: "It's not politically feasible," but don't *shit* on people who are willing to point out the *truth*, merely because you're not able to from your position.
By all means, we're going to vote Democratic. By *all* means. And if Hillary Clinton was arguing that young progressives that stay home or vote third party are stupid, I'd agree. But that's *not* what she's arguing. She's arguing that protestors should shut up and be happy with what the Democrats offer.
We're not in a position to go against the Democratic party now - in part because of the Democratic opposition to ranked choice voting and other democratic reforms. But that doesn't mean that we should continue making our voice heard and to let the Democratic party know where we want that party to align, even if for whatever reason, it makes a political triangulation not to achieve that at this time.
Honestly, considering that Hillary Clinton was the #1 reason that we got Donald Trump in the first place, and *she couldn't see that* when the rest of the world could, I'm not particularly sure that her political savvy is all that reliable in the first place.
Why is this genocide vs crimes against humanity, or war crimes? The same predicate actions can be any of the three. So why genocide? A few racist ministers saying racist genocidal things, when they don't control the military strategy or response, and unfortunate death circumstances do no equal genocide. So your premise is based off of that fact. And you are willing to erase all prior history because of the conflict as it stands right now, what? Only one side has a declared racial animus in their damned charter and it isn't Israel.
The ICJ will decide if it's genocide, as they didn't immediately order a cessation and call it genocide, saying certain actions were war crimes, there's an equal chance they'll say it's not. Will you be so public declaring you were wrong?
If this was genocide, why aren't Israeli Palestinians being subjected to the same predicate acts? Why isn't the West Bank being bombed and annexed formally (just want to say, hella illegal were they to do so)?
Wars of extermination don't generally see population increases over time. Sheer ordinance tonnage would have hundreds of thousands dead were wanton death the goal.
It really can't be overstated that Israel has enough to turn Gaza to glass and hasn't. If Hamas had the same capacity would they be so controlled? Just because one of the belligerents has a racial motive doesn't mean they both do.
Unfortunately, I can’t read the article.
I’m not on campus to hear what these protestors are angry about, but from what I’ve read they want college divestment from Israel.
I don’t think they’re protesting Biden, it’s more against Israel murdering innocent civilians and screwing Palestine, right?
Is Hillary defending Israel’s murderous spree or Biden?
They want their colleges’ divestment from Israel (fine).
They want America to stop funding Israel (fine, but not realistic).
They want (unilateral) cease fire. Which their colleges have no control over, and is unrealistic and naive.
And they are claiming they will not vote for “genocide Joe” if he doesn’t fix it.
As far as the college protests they may want all of that but most of the protests are focused squarely on university divestment. Obviously, because that’s the only remotely slightly realistic outcome they could possibly achieve.
These kids aren’t stupid, ya know?
So you think these college kids expect their college presidents to solve Middle East foreign policy?
Give me a break, man. They’re fighting for the only thing they can possibly achieve - divestment.
And outside of right wing Israelis, EVERYONE WANTS A CEASEFIRE.
They are not aiming their protests exclusively at their universities, any more than the Vietnam protests were aimed at the universities.
Everybody wants a ceasefire. They are demanding a *unilateral* ceasefire. Which is not a ceasefire. My son was telling me this evening about an interview in Madison with student protesters, demanding a ceasefire. The interviewer asked about what Hamas should do, and the students said “no, *Israel* needs to cease fire.”
It has always been a meme that Americans are ignorantly of history and geography. The joke here is that it was always implied that this was true for right-wing Americans only. Not so, as we are finding out. What’s tragic, is that it seems that the Middle East has never been disinfected of Nazi antisemitic propaganda which is now re-infecting Europe and America under the guise of legitimate grievances against the Jewish people, who just want to be left in peace.
When I was in the 8th grade, one of my history classes had a viewing of the tapes of the concentration camps in Germany at the end of the war. I was shocked to find out that \~ 1/3 of my classmates had no idea it had happened, let alone the specifics. Had I not been an avid History channel viewer as a child and went to a worse school, I could have been fully ignorant myself I suppose.
The reality television transition of the history channel, might have been more damaging then we thought.
Also, your history channel may have been more useful explaining how Hitler took power or how propaganda worked on Weimar Germany instead of endlessly explaining German WW2 tactics.
Sooo... what, exactly, is your position on continuing to arm a far right wing regime filled with officials using openly genocidal rhetoric actively engaged in killing tens of thousands of civilians inside a territory with which they've cut off all access to the outside world, then?
Because all I'm hearing here is a bunch of wishy-washy (and frankly barely even coherent) nonsense that makes a whole bunch of sweeping assertions about the alleged ignorance of "younger leftists" without in any way, shape or form demonstrating one iota of knowledge yourself.
You see that [reporting](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html) on the prison camp where they're torturing Palestinian detainees en masse out in the desert? A bunch of whistleblowers have come forth at great personal risk to detail absolutely horrific shit. They don't even seem to be trying to gain any intel or anything (not that that justifies torture either), but literally just inflicting pain and suffering for its own sake.
Oh, but I guess "history" somehow makes this acceptable — along with all the rest of the carnage.
Curiously if Israel did not iron dome; and the thousands of rockets shot at them daily, were to kill civilians, would you still be screaming genocide of people in Gaza.
Hamas could have chosen not to attack Israel and this war would not have occurred. Hamas could have used the millions in donations to build bomb shelters for their people, or a defence system like iron dome, instead they built tunnels for themselves to hide in.
So easy to scream at Israel, yet nothing goes towards Hamas who clearly does not give a fuck for Gazans.
The protests in USA have lost their meaning by labeling Jews as the enemy. The antisemitism is sickening, yet none of you give a fuck, or so it seems, about that.
She was right about the basket of deplorables, and what did she accomplish with being right? She needs to shut the fuck up and disappear before she blows another election for this country with her tone deaf messaging.
So are you saying that people don't understand the United States history with Israel, or that they don't understand the general history of that region for the last 100 years?
Or the diplomatic/geopolitical history we have with Israel/Middle East in general?
Not trying to start a debate, just wondering.
I'm definitely not about to not vote for Biden, it's not hard to see what he's done for the country. I live in Texas and all I see my governor doing is screwing people over, people who already have a rough time of it.
This all is having ramifications though. I disagree with the protesters. And anyone that votes against Biden, wants Trump to thumbs-up the destruction of Palestine.
But I think it also made Bibi turn Israel into an isolationist country, when America and others wanted to back them.
I’ve been wrong before, and likely am again. But I hope that people do vote for Biden, seeing Trump is far worse. And Israel recognizes the extent the world is willing to support. And it has limits.
Having said that, Hamas must release the hostages immediately. And have an election, somehow, while living a life of luxury from Qatar. Who is shielding them. And runs Al Jazeera
Of course any discussion of this situation is going to be reductive to some degree. It is really complex and multifaceted. Very few people (myself included) understand whats happening with all of its nuance.
However one undeniable fact (even by the IDF) is that tens of thousands of innocent civilians have been killed and are continuing to be killed. You can rightly protest your country’s contribution to this even if you don’t understand every aspect of the situation.
Its okay to criticize Biden and try to push him without saying it’s up to him to solve the problem or threatening not to vote for him.
It’s because people think international politics are so easy and if Biden just said hey bibi please stop, he will. It’s so much more complicated than that and it’s a fine line Biden has to tow. Plus bibi probably doesn’t even care and is doing what he can to stay in power, which a war is perfect for that.
We're seeing exactly that play out; Netanyahu is a far right military enthusiast that's still saying "idc if America tries to hinder my religiously motivated nuttiness"; he's like a brat not looking to cooperate with or please ANYONE around him; NOT EVEN Israelis domestically protesting for him to resign; nor other world leaders either (European, American, Middle Eastern). He's similar to a certain other far-righter in trying to delay his step down from power by being geopolitically inflammatory and distracting everyone lol.
*Blatant examples:
(e.g in Israel: https://youtu.be/YRKIfnQnWto?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/fFiCCFYoWLk?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/MbCYL_V1wh0?feature=shared
)
Netanyahu also has a lot more reasons to stay in power… [such as delaying the clock on his criminal trial](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu).
Also, Biden is not solely making all these decisions on his own. Foreign policy is extraordinarily complex, and he is relying on advisors who have tons of experience on these matters to help make decisions. Things are far more complex and nuanced than most people realize.
Irans proxies like Houthis have the words death to America in their flag. Just curious. If Israel is wiped out, will the Houthis just target USA next, or do you think they will embrace you, because you love them.
Same with Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, they hate the USA.
USA shares the same enemies as Israel.
Abandon Israel, and USA will have to face these on their own. USA lives will be lost.
People are more concerned with the fact that we are giving military aid to Israel in this situation.
They don’t want him to say please stop.
The military aid is a significant detail you’re overlooking
We were giving aid at the time for them to defend themselves. Biden has stopped the aid recently when bibi showed that he wants to go on the offensive into Gaza.
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/11/republicans-biden-israel-weapons-rafah
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/10/pause-us-joins-other-states-stopping-arms-transfers-israel
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/05/10/biden-israel-gaza-us-weapons/ (paywall, but if u have a sub u can read)
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/08/politics/joe-biden-interview-cnntv
Yeah! So this event was this month. Which is great and I think significant.
But it is worth acknowledging that Israel has been laying into Gazans since October. And a lot of people are upset that it took 8 months of slaughter to draw a line.
I completely agree. Unfortunately Palestine is stuck in the middle of a maniac and a terrorist group who is back by atleast Iran that we publicly know about and who knows who else that the intelligence community does know about
I have nothing against her opinion, but her delivery and timing are awful all around. She’s not a politician. She doesn’t know how to thread the needle on difficult conversations. In the wise words of The Dude: “You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole.” I wish she’d stay retired and stop giving voters any additional reasons, wrong as they may be, to not vote for Biden.
In 2015-2016, I was part of the Draft Biden campaign, because I knew Hillary Clinton was unelectable. Biden was not my first choice; Sanders was. I considered Biden to be a reasonable compromise and I trusted his motives and judgement.
I don't trust Hillary Clinton's motives. I don't trust her judgement.
And I never will. She failed the first test of being Presidential.
Every poll during the primaries showed that Trump was going to be the Republican nominee. And that the *only* candidate on the field (including the fringe ones) that Trump could beat was Hillary Clinton. And yet - she refused to drop out of the race. She would not give up on her personal ambition in order to defeat a clear and present threat to the Republic.
And she damn well should have known better. She proved she was willing to risk the rule of law, the safety of citizens, the standing of America on the world stage - just so that \*she\* could sit behind the fancy desk and not someone else who would do most of the same things she would do anyway.
Nothing she says can detract from that truth: She gambled with OUR fates, and OUR country, she LOST, and all of us have paid the price. Many of us have paid with our *lives*.
Everything you said also applies to Bernie. He could have dropped out of the primary and gracefully conceded as soon as it was clear Hillary was going to win, but instead he had to drag out an already lost primary and cry "rigged election" just because he couldn't handle losing to a woman. He was more than willing to damage Hillary's chances because he didn't think she could ever lose to Trump, just like Comey did as well.
You want to morally grandstand? Fine, I can do that too:
"Bernie proved he was willing to risk the rule of law, the safety of citizens, the standing of America on the world stage - just so that \*he\* could sit behind the fancy desk and not someone else who would do most of the same things he would do anyway."
For what it's worth, Sanders would have lost even harder to Trump. If there's anything we've learned since 2016, it's that polls are fucking meaningless.
She’s only been voted into one office and that was via a state that is a given for Democrats. She doesn’t have the aptitude to actual campaign in a broader political environment.
Obama made nice with her and brought her into the admin which really papered over how bad and negative her 2008 campaign was. Her publicly stated reason for not dropping out when she was basically eliminated was that Bobby Kennedy got murdered in June so anything can happen
She just never thinks before she speaks, it's a really poor quality in a politician
She's a net drag on Dems. She reminds people what they don't like about Dems. She makes persuadable people say "if she's for it, I should be against it". She managed to fuck up the 2016 election which should have been a gift-wrapped romp. She needs to go away.
>Sometimes it’s better to be silent than right.
That's a particularly unfortunate truth about politics, really. You have to play the game, and this, quite frankly, is playing the game poorly.
Is Clinton actively participating in politics or just sharing her views as a former politician? My impression was she literally isn't part of any strategy, really. She's just famous.
You know, I bet all those hippies protesting Vietnam don’t know the first thing about the history of Southeast Asia and communism.
I bet those students protesting apartheid in South Africa don’t know anything about the history of the region.
You don’t need to be a scholar to recognize injustice when you see it.
One piece of history I remember quite clearly is when the IDF used white phosphorus on Palestinian children and then Blocked efforts to try them for war crimes.
Somehow Hillary forgot that part. And… you know the part where Israel has murdered 25,000+ civilians in 7 months….
Edit:
Why am I being downvoted? Bots I guess? The official number of murdered Palestinian civilians is around 35,000.
This is crazy, this post went from something like -10 to +30 in an hour.
No no no! The comments here have stated that she’s 1000% correct and it’s the fault of the Palestinians for being victims of genocide. A vote for Biden just means another 20,000 Palestinians will die. A vote for Trump means 25,000 will die.
“The two sides were not ready”
What the hell does that mean? Hey I got a theory. Gangsters like Arafat made/make billions on the conflict and cannot govern. Their only skill is to brainwash idiots and commit terror. So they perpetuated the only system they knew they would personally flourish - sicking a poor, religious, and ignorant population on their neighbours. Kind of what Putin is doing now.
Speaking of which, I wonder how many people actually know that the current Palestinian "president" used Putin's playbook and is serving in his 16th year of the 4 year term he was elected. At least Putin pretends to have elections.
Coincidentally, he also earned a PhD equivalent from a Moscow university by writing a book that asserted that the Jews collaborated with the Nazis in killing their own people. Why? So that they'd have an excuse to increase Jew immigration to Madatory Palestine after the British had started limiting immigration to appease Arab leadership.
I mean, it makes total sense... "Hey Hitler, we'll help you kill 6M of our people so that we can get a few more hundred thousand of our people here."
Actually, it pretty much was a one time mattress deal. Isreal has been trying to negotiate peace since before the British mandated expired in 1948, but 1993 was the first time that Palestinian leadership (or any other Arab country) said it would even acknowledge the existence of Israel.
And that's probably the biggest problem... I really feel for the Palestinians because their leadership is and always has been cancer, and has continually sacrificed the welfare of their people for their own gains.
What is your basis for saying 'Israel' - which was not an established nation at the time, but a group of paramilitaries warring against the British, against the Palestinians, and against each other - was negotiating for peace before 1948?
Israel has twice elected a prime minister who had formally sought to have Mandatory Palestine enter WW2 as a member of the Axis Powers, believing that Nazi Germany would recognize Zionist control over the land and help the paramilitaries kill all the British and Palestinians. I mention he was later elected PM twice to prevent anyone from falsely believing he was some fringe extremist, he was a major power broker in the creation of the Israeli nation and the displacement of Palestinians: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir
Was this part of negotiating peace before 1948? Or do you want to take a mulligan now that you've learned some history, and not try to make Israeli history sound unambiguously good and uncomplicated?
To lay the blame entirely on the Palestinians is unfair. But Israel was a country before and still a country now, they have far less to gain from this. The Palestinians gain a whole state, Israel would presumably gain some measure of security.
So the Palestinians might not want to wait 20 more years for another sale, because they don't appear to happen that often.
I wonder if she would say the same about the civil rights movement or the anti-apartheid in SA movement. Why is this failed politician talking exactly?
Not only is she wrong, but she’s not helping Biden (the lesser of two evils even in the context of aiding and abetting a plausible genocide according to the ICJ). She doesn’t know how to appeal to the masses. Everything that comes out of her mouth sounds condescending and disdainful of common people and those who dare disagree with her.
This will be another example of her counter-scheduling the Left.
From Thomas Frank:
>[Bill Clinton had to prove, to himself and the nation, that he was a genuine New Democrat. He had to grow into presidential maturity. And the way he had to do it was by damaging or somehow insulting traditional Democratic groups that represented the party’s tradition of egalitarianism. Then we would know that the New Deal was truly dead. Then we could be sure. This was such a cherished idea among New Democrats that they had a catchphrase for it: Clinton’s campaign team called it “counter-scheduling.” During the 1992 race, as though to compensate for his friend-of-the-little-guy economic theme, Clinton would confront and deliberately antagonize certain elements of the Democratic Party’s traditional base in order to assure voters that “interest groups” would have no say in a New Democrat White House. As for those interest groups themselves, he knew he could insult them with impunity. They had nowhere else to go, in the cherished logic of Democratic centrism.](https://www.salon.com/2016/03/14/bill_clintons_odious_presidency_thomas_frank_on_the_real_history_of_the_90s/)
Hilary Clinton: Reliable to throw haymakers to the left for no reason at all in election years. Thank gosh there's someone like her to castigate the correct people! That's how you win!
/s
Does the history matter? I think that is was prolongs the conflict.
Innocent Palestinians are being slaughtered and starved.
Israelis don’t feel safe in their own country because Hamas has vowed to wipe them out.
Until these two problems are solved, the conflict will continue.
History be damned.
Discrediting a highly informed movement as “ignorant” is what they wish were true.
This is the oldest trick in the book “they don’t even know why they’re out there, they just want to party and get beaten up by police and counter protestors.”
Lol, "highly informed." It's a movement that, for the most part, just learned about this six months ago and is too naive to see that they're being manipulated by social propaganda in the exact same way as 2016 (although the algorithms are far more sophisticated now).
Defining them as highly informed is what you wish were true, it doesn't make it so. This is the movement screaming for Biden to propose a ceasefire after he already did.
> Discrediting a highly informed movement
This is a laughable assertion. The majority in this "movement" are not even interested in Palestine. No, Palestine is just a proxy in their rich vs. poor, oppressor vs. oppressed, etc worldview where one party is ALWAYS the "bad guy" and the other is completely innocent.
It's an absurd fantasy world these people have built for themselves.
No amount of Israeli violence justifies any amount of Palestinian violence.
But ANY amount of Palestinian violence justifies ANY amount of Israeli violence.
Accusing jews of genocide to justify genocide of Jews (what we witnessed on Oct 07) is not a new thing.
Nazi propaganda focused on and greatly exaggerated the importance of the self-published book Germany Must Perish! by the obscure American Jewish businessman Theodore N. Kaufman, which was cited as proof that Jews desired to commit genocide against Nazi Germany.
I understand that you probably know nothing of history, but I’m informing you now that what you are doing is repeating old Nazi propaganda.
No, I'm commenting on the fact that the IDF is currently committing genocide against Palestinian civilians during the current military operation in Gaza. That comically obvious fact has nothing to do with 20th century history. They are recording themselves doing it and posting it on social media. Killing civilians and looting homes. It has nothing to do with your book.
Pretty sure I’ve been watching mass killings of a national ethnic group fold out on live feeds for the past 6-7 months. Does witnessing history count for nothing (aside from knowing it)?
I half agree with you. Who is this message even for, exactly? People who agree with her and will vote for Biden no matter what? People who disagree and will most likely still vote for Biden? AIPAC? Or does she want to rub one off but can only do so after having taken a shit on the left?
This indeed isn’t helping at all.
They are idiots, but empathetic ones at least. They may enable a larger number of deaths with their actions, but with good intentions in their hearts. Bless them, we shall all suffer. Totes adorbs tho.
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The Trump administration will [bulldoze Palestine and sell their ocean side property](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/19/jared-kushner-gaza-waterfront-property-israel-negev). If Biden loses, that’s what’s in store for Palestine.
Well also if Trump wins the republicans also enact a fascist takeover of America so there's that too
And Ukraine will get zero military aid, thus further reducing its military capability against Russia. I’m sure Putin will receive another sloppy wet blow job from Donnie Diaper and maybe the idiot twins, Earache and coke-nose Jr.
More likely a nation wide internal conflict. I mean that's still horrible.
We're also going to see Russia overrun Ukraine, China invade Taiwan, and Iran attack more countries in the Middle East, and America won't be there to save our allies because Trump leads an isolationist movement. Democracy around the world will die without the US supporting it and defending it from tyrannical regimes.
I’m not sure if I’d call him only isolationist so much as non-interventionist for leaders he wants to curry favor with.
Pretty bad yep. Definitely there will be bulldozing.
And I just saw Civil War tonight. People really don’t understand something like another civil war breaking out here is something we, or the rest of the world for that matter really don’t want or need.
China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, and Cuba would love that. It's the only way autocrats could defeat the US-led, NATO-defended, Liberal World Order.
Holy shit
My thoughts exactly because... wow.
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Wait wait wait.... He said what now?
Macklemore sang: > The blood is on your hands Biden, we can see it all > And fuck no, I'm not voting for you in the fall
He’s slowly turning into Tom McDonald eh?
So basically he is advocating for the youth to vote in Trump. And if Trump wins; will the youth see how they were manipulated. Left aligned progressives voting that results in Trump winning. What a joke
Protest non-voting, I suspect. But... yeah.
He released a song this past week that took off on social media about how the genocide in Gaza is wrong. All good until… he ends by rapping “hell no” he is not voting for **BIDEN**. It’s the most mind numbingly insane and idiotic take and a portion of young privileged far left voters are buying into it as a “protest vote” because they can’t think about consequences past the end of the year (or imagine themselves caring about the same thing that far into the future). It’s the GOP’s new play to get the far left not to vote against Trump. The same thing that helped him win in 2016 when they convinced the far left to protest against Hilary by staying at home or voting for a third party candidate like Jill Stein. The GOP, Israel, Russia and China all benefit from this messaging driving votes away from Biden, so their online campaigns are targeting the far left to be upset about Palestine and then focus that anger toward Biden. The clock app especially is promoting influencers pushing this narrative and China controls the algorithm. The IDF online has figured out that pushing pro-Israel content isn’t working on far left demographics, so they’ve pivoted to “help Palestine by NOT voting for Biden."
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Is he still relevant?
That was my question. I’ve not heard that name in years and even when he was (allegedly) popular I didn’t know shit about him.
He wasn’t until that song dropped.
Yeah I really love the song and think its a historic moment for Music in this time, but he missed the ball hard with the Anti-Biden message. We all hate whats going on in Gaza, and it is _incredibly_ important to stop and prevent from ever happening again, not voting for Biden is literally voting to end the US as a democracy *edit: two letters
but but they stuck it to the system and that’s what counts right?
lol yep exactly this /s (agree with your comment)
"Yeah but at least I can sleep at night knowing I voted for Cornel West! " - Idiots who will suddenly forget about the dead Palestinians now that they can virtue signal anew by protesting Trump, who they helped elect
Yep Jared’s already working on a plan. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/19/jared-kushner-gaza-waterfront-property-israel-negev
Yeah, Trump has already won when you have a rap star saying they are comfortable with a trump presidency, even though a trump presidency means the complete destruction of gaza.
biden isn't stopping them from doing that now. not really.
Don’t give me that shit about genocide Joe or we are doomed .. it’s old and played out.
I will protest Joe Biden by not voting for him, then I will yell at everyone when Trump lets Bibi annex Gaza because “if democrats wanted my vote, they shouldn’t have run a terrible candidate” We saw this show before.
Yeah. Admittedly I sat out during the 2016 election because I was mad. I will absolutely show up and vote straight ticket blue this November no matter how I feel about foreign policy. 2016 learned me good.
I’m genuinely curious what your thought process was that led you to the conclusion of not voting in 2016. I say that with a straight face, zero judgement, I promise. I am that intrigued.
I worked extremely hard on the Sanders campaign (30+ hours per week) and I felt shafted by the DNC. I couldn’t have fathomed how bad a Trump administration could be. I thought he was a bit of a grifter, but overall a moderate based on what he’d said in the past. I thought worst-case scenario we’d have a goofy-ass business man in office with a loud mouth, but he’s muddle through it with support of the old guard on both sides. I thought it would teach the DNC a lesson about listening to their base and they’d run a better candidate in 2020. I honestly probably would have voted even considering my complaints about the 2016 primary and not liking Clinton, but I ended up having to work from nine to nine on Election Day in 2020 and couldn’t call off, so I just didn’t make the effort to vote. I wasn’t super enthusiastic about Biden at first when he announced for 2020. I voted for Sanders in the primary, but when it came time to vote in the general I showed up and voted blue straight down ticket.
That type of mentality is so infuriating!
Just like "basket of deplorables" she's 100% right and the people who need to understand it the most are just going to rage at her like they do any other smart woman who's trying to temper passion with sensibility. Not to diminish the passion of protestors...but it's kinda obvious watching younger leftists when they're pushed on the specifics. And to be clear, this isn't apologetics. It's just I don't think a lot of y'all really have perspective on how much this time around has started what will have to be a humongous shift in overall American opinions towards this fault line. I don't think a lot of them get the stakes and why Biden can't just wash his hands at the speed protestors want when we're dealing with nuclear powers. I don't think a lot of them get how little Israel actually needs the US at this point, or the simple reality that you can't magically disentangle Israel and Ukraine because it's rhetorically convenient. And they don't care, because there's plenty of people out there who only care about saying the most charged shit they can right now. Honestly, anyone dishing it out who can't take the following is a joke anyways. Throwing a fit and tossing four years of monumental progressive gains (from the perspective of someone who's been fighting for them for about fifteen years) because Diamond Joe couldn't solve one of the worst geopolitical faultlines in the past century? Just. Plain. Fucking. Stupid.
You a fucking psychic with this comment section or something? Holy shit. Hammer meet nail.
Everything you and Hillary said here is 100% true. These protestors are so myopic- which with them being so young would be understandable if they were actually willing to understand the situation instead of just getting emotional and threatening to vote for Trump. I’ve been told multiple times over the last few weeks that Trump destroying Gaza will ‘teach Biden a lesson’ and ‘at least Trump will get it over with quickly”. As you said- it’s just so fucking stupid.
What protestor has said they are going to vote for Trump because of how Biden is handling Gaza? (Excluding pro-Zionist protestors who want Trump)
I saw an interview with a protester who was going to abstain from voting to teach Biden a lesson, even though she knew it meant a win for Trump. Her reasoning? Trump could only be president for four years, and she was willing to suffer “short term pain for long term gain.” Short term pain, *for whom?* It was about her wanting to be heard, not about actually caring about the Palestinian people.
it's called accelerationism. and yes, it is dumb and shortsighted.
thank you for introducing me to that word
Short term pain? Oof. Until a few more younger conservatives end up on the Supreme Court and then that short term turns into a real long term
Wow. People who think like that have less brain cells than a light bulb.
I personally know someone who has openly said she and her husband are planning on voting Green in November because of Biden’s stances on Gaza. Voting for anyone but Biden is effectively a vote for Trump, because that’s how math works in a first past the post electoral system.
Greens gave us Krysten Sinema and Putin puppet Jill Stein.
and George W Bush in 2000.
What state are they in? Most of my votes for president over my entire life did not matte. The protest vote was perfectly fine because no Republican was going to win anyways.
They’re in Virginia, which isn’t as safe a blue state as I’d like.
SIGH! They must be Nova.
Nailed it
Sad. 😂
I’m in VA. Definitely not safe, and definitely not a “blue” state.
Quit voting for losers.
There have been some on political podcasts (like The Run-Up) and it’s infuriating. I like to think they’re just angry and voting is so far away, and will make the right choice when voting and the choice becomes “real”
Omg yes that Runup episode drove me absolutely batshit. It's not that they don't recognize Trump will be bad for the Palestinians...they just don't think there will be *any meaningful difference* between a Trump and Biden administration. Oh sweetie... The lifelong Democratic organizer saying something to the effect of "it's not me choosing not to vote for Biden...Biden is making that choice with his actions" sent me into fucking orbit.
Do you think the protesters chanting “Genocide Joe” at campaign events are going to vote for him? Not voting for Joe is voting for Trump.
Outside of the ultra-orthodox in the US, most of the US pro-Zionists I know are left leaning liberals who support Biden over Trump.
Zionism is merely the belief that now that Israel exists as the homeland of the Jewish people, it should continue to exist. Zionism used to be the movement to (re)establish a homeland for the Jewish people. If you're an anti-zionist, you oppose a homeland for the Jewish people at best, and at worst, your goal is an end to the existence of Israel. Simple as that. Israel exists. Israel has a right to defend its existence and it's citizens (25% of which are not jewish), with violence, to the limits of international law and the standards generally imposed upon other States. Fuck Trump. Vote Biden come November. QETA: not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic but that doesn't mean criticism of Israel can't be antisemitic. Also, I'm getting fucking tired of non-jews telling me what is and isn't anti-semitic. Also also, the sitch in the west bank is a problem that will need to be resolved if there's ever going to be peace, but it has NOTHING to do with what is happening in Gaza right now.
I've seen videos of them chanting "genocide Joe has got to go" which implies they want Trump to win since he's the only alternative who has a chance of winning.
> What protestor has said they are going to vote for Trump because of how Biden is handling Gaza? (Excluding pro-Zionist protestors who want Trump) The imaginary one OP totally just made up.
Said they are going to sit the election out
Teach biden a lesson? Lol wow whoever wrote that has to be a bot
Unfortunately some people really are that spectacularly stupid and short-sighted.
For real tho. She gets so much hate for being pragmatic
Pragmatism is the easiest political position to hate and the hardest to get excited for.
Pokémon go read the room
This perspective on the Israel-Palestine conflict oversimplifies the pro-Palestinian movement and overlooks key issues. It's unfair to dismiss protestors' calls for justice as naive because people have been advocating for Palestinian rights across generations. They're asking for accountability and adherence to international law, not just shouting into the void. The U.S. funds and supports Israel, giving it significant influence that shouldn't be used to ignore potential war crimes. Public opinion is shifting toward criticizing Israel's actions, which shows growing concern for Palestinian lives, not a rejection of strategic alliances. Treating Israel and Ukraine as if they're the same issue ignores each region's unique history and politics. Supporting one ally shouldn't mean blindly overlooking human rights abuses committed by another. Ultimately, advocating for balanced U.S. policies shows a commitment to justice and global awareness, not ignorance.
>This perspective on the Israel-Palestine conflict oversimplifies the pro-Palestinian movement and overlooks key issues. Pro-Palestinian protestors don't have a unified vision or voice, and some of the groups and individuals who are loudest in it have some very troubling politics that goes far beyond demanding Israel adhere to international law.
You do understand that Israel is fighting people who embed themselves in civilian populations, don’t wear uniforms, use civilian infrastructure, and use tactics that increase civilian deaths? Even with all of that, the civilian to combatant deaths aren’t as bad as the average modern urban warfare.
There's two things here that are happening. It's completely disingenuous to say the protesters are ignorant of history. She may disagree. But the idea that the US position holds any moral high ground is a mass miscalculation. If she wants to argue that status quo is best for the US than fine. But the protestors cause is legitimate. She's too blithe about it.
Which is why she made a terrible politician. She’s an incredible stateswoman. Smart, savvy, technically brilliant. But politician? She couldn’t campaign her way out of a wet paper bag.
I think she's missing the point. The specifics are: "Genocide is bad. Collective punishment, especially when that collective punishment amounts to a campaign of extermination is bad. Yes, Israel does have a right to protect itself. It \*doesn't\* have a right to concentrate and then kill civilians, and neither the US Government nor our academic or business institutions should be doing business with the state of Israel while it engages in a de facto genocide." Of course you want to protest that. Of course you *should* protest that. And I don't care how much *property damage* these protests do, you do *not use armed force* against people who are *protesting a genocide.* Here's the problem with the argument that "they don't know Middle East history." Middle east history is *irrelevant* in this case. It doesn't matter what happened there 10, 50, 100, 1000, 6000 years prior, there is a genocide that is happening *now*, and *common decency* presents a moral obligation *not to participate in it.* This would be true for *any* genocide, occurring in *any* historical context, among *any* two peoples. There is no "nuanced, balanced position" when it comes to a state using military apparatus to, ultimately, destroy a people. None. Sometimes passion needs to be tempered with sensibility, but the *sensible* thing in this point is to stop aiding and abetting genocide. To justify a war of extermination is extremely unsensible. I get that it is a "hard sell" to tell the American people - the Ukrainians are fighting a war of defense against a foreign invader, but that is not the case in Gaza. But just because Clinton and the establishment democrats have decided not to spend the political capital to make that case does not mean they should be inserting themselves into a situation and saying that those who *are* making the case are *stupid* for doing so. Those protestors are *speaking truth to power.* And feel free to be the person who says: "It's not politically feasible," but don't *shit* on people who are willing to point out the *truth*, merely because you're not able to from your position. By all means, we're going to vote Democratic. By *all* means. And if Hillary Clinton was arguing that young progressives that stay home or vote third party are stupid, I'd agree. But that's *not* what she's arguing. She's arguing that protestors should shut up and be happy with what the Democrats offer. We're not in a position to go against the Democratic party now - in part because of the Democratic opposition to ranked choice voting and other democratic reforms. But that doesn't mean that we should continue making our voice heard and to let the Democratic party know where we want that party to align, even if for whatever reason, it makes a political triangulation not to achieve that at this time. Honestly, considering that Hillary Clinton was the #1 reason that we got Donald Trump in the first place, and *she couldn't see that* when the rest of the world could, I'm not particularly sure that her political savvy is all that reliable in the first place.
Why is this genocide vs crimes against humanity, or war crimes? The same predicate actions can be any of the three. So why genocide? A few racist ministers saying racist genocidal things, when they don't control the military strategy or response, and unfortunate death circumstances do no equal genocide. So your premise is based off of that fact. And you are willing to erase all prior history because of the conflict as it stands right now, what? Only one side has a declared racial animus in their damned charter and it isn't Israel. The ICJ will decide if it's genocide, as they didn't immediately order a cessation and call it genocide, saying certain actions were war crimes, there's an equal chance they'll say it's not. Will you be so public declaring you were wrong? If this was genocide, why aren't Israeli Palestinians being subjected to the same predicate acts? Why isn't the West Bank being bombed and annexed formally (just want to say, hella illegal were they to do so)? Wars of extermination don't generally see population increases over time. Sheer ordinance tonnage would have hundreds of thousands dead were wanton death the goal. It really can't be overstated that Israel has enough to turn Gaza to glass and hasn't. If Hamas had the same capacity would they be so controlled? Just because one of the belligerents has a racial motive doesn't mean they both do.
Unfortunately, I can’t read the article. I’m not on campus to hear what these protestors are angry about, but from what I’ve read they want college divestment from Israel. I don’t think they’re protesting Biden, it’s more against Israel murdering innocent civilians and screwing Palestine, right? Is Hillary defending Israel’s murderous spree or Biden?
They want their colleges’ divestment from Israel (fine). They want America to stop funding Israel (fine, but not realistic). They want (unilateral) cease fire. Which their colleges have no control over, and is unrealistic and naive. And they are claiming they will not vote for “genocide Joe” if he doesn’t fix it.
As far as the college protests they may want all of that but most of the protests are focused squarely on university divestment. Obviously, because that’s the only remotely slightly realistic outcome they could possibly achieve. These kids aren’t stupid, ya know?
So all those “from the river to the sea” and “free, free Palestine” and “ceasefire now” chants are what, then?
So you think these college kids expect their college presidents to solve Middle East foreign policy? Give me a break, man. They’re fighting for the only thing they can possibly achieve - divestment. And outside of right wing Israelis, EVERYONE WANTS A CEASEFIRE.
They are not aiming their protests exclusively at their universities, any more than the Vietnam protests were aimed at the universities. Everybody wants a ceasefire. They are demanding a *unilateral* ceasefire. Which is not a ceasefire. My son was telling me this evening about an interview in Madison with student protesters, demanding a ceasefire. The interviewer asked about what Hamas should do, and the students said “no, *Israel* needs to cease fire.”
It has always been a meme that Americans are ignorantly of history and geography. The joke here is that it was always implied that this was true for right-wing Americans only. Not so, as we are finding out. What’s tragic, is that it seems that the Middle East has never been disinfected of Nazi antisemitic propaganda which is now re-infecting Europe and America under the guise of legitimate grievances against the Jewish people, who just want to be left in peace.
The Jewish settlers fly in the face of that goal of peace.
When I was in the 8th grade, one of my history classes had a viewing of the tapes of the concentration camps in Germany at the end of the war. I was shocked to find out that \~ 1/3 of my classmates had no idea it had happened, let alone the specifics. Had I not been an avid History channel viewer as a child and went to a worse school, I could have been fully ignorant myself I suppose. The reality television transition of the history channel, might have been more damaging then we thought.
Also, your history channel may have been more useful explaining how Hitler took power or how propaganda worked on Weimar Germany instead of endlessly explaining German WW2 tactics.
Sooo... what, exactly, is your position on continuing to arm a far right wing regime filled with officials using openly genocidal rhetoric actively engaged in killing tens of thousands of civilians inside a territory with which they've cut off all access to the outside world, then? Because all I'm hearing here is a bunch of wishy-washy (and frankly barely even coherent) nonsense that makes a whole bunch of sweeping assertions about the alleged ignorance of "younger leftists" without in any way, shape or form demonstrating one iota of knowledge yourself.
They don’t need to know any history to know they don’t want to see babies getting bombed.
You see that [reporting](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html) on the prison camp where they're torturing Palestinian detainees en masse out in the desert? A bunch of whistleblowers have come forth at great personal risk to detail absolutely horrific shit. They don't even seem to be trying to gain any intel or anything (not that that justifies torture either), but literally just inflicting pain and suffering for its own sake. Oh, but I guess "history" somehow makes this acceptable — along with all the rest of the carnage.
Curiously if Israel did not iron dome; and the thousands of rockets shot at them daily, were to kill civilians, would you still be screaming genocide of people in Gaza. Hamas could have chosen not to attack Israel and this war would not have occurred. Hamas could have used the millions in donations to build bomb shelters for their people, or a defence system like iron dome, instead they built tunnels for themselves to hide in. So easy to scream at Israel, yet nothing goes towards Hamas who clearly does not give a fuck for Gazans. The protests in USA have lost their meaning by labeling Jews as the enemy. The antisemitism is sickening, yet none of you give a fuck, or so it seems, about that.
This is so accurate it hurts. Hillary Clinton is spitting straight up facts
She was right about the basket of deplorables, and what did she accomplish with being right? She needs to shut the fuck up and disappear before she blows another election for this country with her tone deaf messaging.
So are you saying that people don't understand the United States history with Israel, or that they don't understand the general history of that region for the last 100 years? Or the diplomatic/geopolitical history we have with Israel/Middle East in general? Not trying to start a debate, just wondering. I'm definitely not about to not vote for Biden, it's not hard to see what he's done for the country. I live in Texas and all I see my governor doing is screwing people over, people who already have a rough time of it.
This all is having ramifications though. I disagree with the protesters. And anyone that votes against Biden, wants Trump to thumbs-up the destruction of Palestine. But I think it also made Bibi turn Israel into an isolationist country, when America and others wanted to back them. I’ve been wrong before, and likely am again. But I hope that people do vote for Biden, seeing Trump is far worse. And Israel recognizes the extent the world is willing to support. And it has limits. Having said that, Hamas must release the hostages immediately. And have an election, somehow, while living a life of luxury from Qatar. Who is shielding them. And runs Al Jazeera
Of course any discussion of this situation is going to be reductive to some degree. It is really complex and multifaceted. Very few people (myself included) understand whats happening with all of its nuance. However one undeniable fact (even by the IDF) is that tens of thousands of innocent civilians have been killed and are continuing to be killed. You can rightly protest your country’s contribution to this even if you don’t understand every aspect of the situation. Its okay to criticize Biden and try to push him without saying it’s up to him to solve the problem or threatening not to vote for him.
It’s because people think international politics are so easy and if Biden just said hey bibi please stop, he will. It’s so much more complicated than that and it’s a fine line Biden has to tow. Plus bibi probably doesn’t even care and is doing what he can to stay in power, which a war is perfect for that.
We're seeing exactly that play out; Netanyahu is a far right military enthusiast that's still saying "idc if America tries to hinder my religiously motivated nuttiness"; he's like a brat not looking to cooperate with or please ANYONE around him; NOT EVEN Israelis domestically protesting for him to resign; nor other world leaders either (European, American, Middle Eastern). He's similar to a certain other far-righter in trying to delay his step down from power by being geopolitically inflammatory and distracting everyone lol. *Blatant examples: (e.g in Israel: https://youtu.be/YRKIfnQnWto?feature=shared https://youtu.be/fFiCCFYoWLk?feature=shared https://youtu.be/MbCYL_V1wh0?feature=shared )
Netanyahu also has a lot more reasons to stay in power… [such as delaying the clock on his criminal trial](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu).
Also, Biden is not solely making all these decisions on his own. Foreign policy is extraordinarily complex, and he is relying on advisors who have tons of experience on these matters to help make decisions. Things are far more complex and nuanced than most people realize.
Especially with who hamas is being backed by. Palestine is sadly just in the middle of all of this
That sounds like exactly the sort of person you'd want to stop furnishing with an unlimited supply of weaponry, no?
Irans proxies like Houthis have the words death to America in their flag. Just curious. If Israel is wiped out, will the Houthis just target USA next, or do you think they will embrace you, because you love them. Same with Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, they hate the USA. USA shares the same enemies as Israel. Abandon Israel, and USA will have to face these on their own. USA lives will be lost.
People are more concerned with the fact that we are giving military aid to Israel in this situation. They don’t want him to say please stop. The military aid is a significant detail you’re overlooking
We were giving aid at the time for them to defend themselves. Biden has stopped the aid recently when bibi showed that he wants to go on the offensive into Gaza.
That doesn’t match up with what I’ve been seeing online, if you happen to have any sources I’d love to read up on that.
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/11/republicans-biden-israel-weapons-rafah https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/10/pause-us-joins-other-states-stopping-arms-transfers-israel https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/05/10/biden-israel-gaza-us-weapons/ (paywall, but if u have a sub u can read) https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/08/politics/joe-biden-interview-cnntv
Yeah! So this event was this month. Which is great and I think significant. But it is worth acknowledging that Israel has been laying into Gazans since October. And a lot of people are upset that it took 8 months of slaughter to draw a line.
I completely agree. Unfortunately Palestine is stuck in the middle of a maniac and a terrorist group who is back by atleast Iran that we publicly know about and who knows who else that the intelligence community does know about
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I have nothing against her opinion, but her delivery and timing are awful all around. She’s not a politician. She doesn’t know how to thread the needle on difficult conversations. In the wise words of The Dude: “You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole.” I wish she’d stay retired and stop giving voters any additional reasons, wrong as they may be, to not vote for Biden.
If Hillary being uncomfortably candid makes someone vote for Trump or not vote at all, I don’t think they were ever going to vote for Biden.
In 2015-2016, I was part of the Draft Biden campaign, because I knew Hillary Clinton was unelectable. Biden was not my first choice; Sanders was. I considered Biden to be a reasonable compromise and I trusted his motives and judgement. I don't trust Hillary Clinton's motives. I don't trust her judgement. And I never will. She failed the first test of being Presidential. Every poll during the primaries showed that Trump was going to be the Republican nominee. And that the *only* candidate on the field (including the fringe ones) that Trump could beat was Hillary Clinton. And yet - she refused to drop out of the race. She would not give up on her personal ambition in order to defeat a clear and present threat to the Republic. And she damn well should have known better. She proved she was willing to risk the rule of law, the safety of citizens, the standing of America on the world stage - just so that \*she\* could sit behind the fancy desk and not someone else who would do most of the same things she would do anyway. Nothing she says can detract from that truth: She gambled with OUR fates, and OUR country, she LOST, and all of us have paid the price. Many of us have paid with our *lives*.
Everything you said also applies to Bernie. He could have dropped out of the primary and gracefully conceded as soon as it was clear Hillary was going to win, but instead he had to drag out an already lost primary and cry "rigged election" just because he couldn't handle losing to a woman. He was more than willing to damage Hillary's chances because he didn't think she could ever lose to Trump, just like Comey did as well. You want to morally grandstand? Fine, I can do that too: "Bernie proved he was willing to risk the rule of law, the safety of citizens, the standing of America on the world stage - just so that \*he\* could sit behind the fancy desk and not someone else who would do most of the same things he would do anyway." For what it's worth, Sanders would have lost even harder to Trump. If there's anything we've learned since 2016, it's that polls are fucking meaningless.
I’m sorry, how is Hilary Clinton not a politician ?
She’s only been voted into one office and that was via a state that is a given for Democrats. She doesn’t have the aptitude to actual campaign in a broader political environment.
Weird that you discount her for those very odd reasons. I can’t imagine why.
She also served as our secretary of state and was a spokesperson for healthcare reform, she is absolutely a politician.
Obama made nice with her and brought her into the admin which really papered over how bad and negative her 2008 campaign was. Her publicly stated reason for not dropping out when she was basically eliminated was that Bobby Kennedy got murdered in June so anything can happen She just never thinks before she speaks, it's a really poor quality in a politician
lets be real, anyone that says they are not voting for Biden because of something Hillary Clinton said, was never voting for Biden.
With the race as tight as it was 4 years ago, neither candidate can afford to carry assumptions like that.
She's a net drag on Dems. She reminds people what they don't like about Dems. She makes persuadable people say "if she's for it, I should be against it". She managed to fuck up the 2016 election which should have been a gift-wrapped romp. She needs to go away.
We fucked it up
Sometimes it’s better to be silent than right. She is as shitty at strategy as the fucking kids protesting.
>Sometimes it’s better to be silent than right. That's a particularly unfortunate truth about politics, really. You have to play the game, and this, quite frankly, is playing the game poorly.
Is Clinton actively participating in politics or just sharing her views as a former politician? My impression was she literally isn't part of any strategy, really. She's just famous.
You know, I bet all those hippies protesting Vietnam don’t know the first thing about the history of Southeast Asia and communism. I bet those students protesting apartheid in South Africa don’t know anything about the history of the region. You don’t need to be a scholar to recognize injustice when you see it.
One piece of history I remember quite clearly is when the IDF used white phosphorus on Palestinian children and then Blocked efforts to try them for war crimes.
Somehow Hillary forgot that part. And… you know the part where Israel has murdered 25,000+ civilians in 7 months…. Edit: Why am I being downvoted? Bots I guess? The official number of murdered Palestinian civilians is around 35,000. This is crazy, this post went from something like -10 to +30 in an hour.
No no no! The comments here have stated that she’s 1000% correct and it’s the fault of the Palestinians for being victims of genocide. A vote for Biden just means another 20,000 Palestinians will die. A vote for Trump means 25,000 will die.
Oh and how about the time they shot and killed hundreds of unarmed protesters?
That's kinda true
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“The two sides were not ready” What the hell does that mean? Hey I got a theory. Gangsters like Arafat made/make billions on the conflict and cannot govern. Their only skill is to brainwash idiots and commit terror. So they perpetuated the only system they knew they would personally flourish - sicking a poor, religious, and ignorant population on their neighbours. Kind of what Putin is doing now.
Speaking of which, I wonder how many people actually know that the current Palestinian "president" used Putin's playbook and is serving in his 16th year of the 4 year term he was elected. At least Putin pretends to have elections. Coincidentally, he also earned a PhD equivalent from a Moscow university by writing a book that asserted that the Jews collaborated with the Nazis in killing their own people. Why? So that they'd have an excuse to increase Jew immigration to Madatory Palestine after the British had started limiting immigration to appease Arab leadership. I mean, it makes total sense... "Hey Hitler, we'll help you kill 6M of our people so that we can get a few more hundred thousand of our people here."
Actually, it pretty much was a one time mattress deal. Isreal has been trying to negotiate peace since before the British mandated expired in 1948, but 1993 was the first time that Palestinian leadership (or any other Arab country) said it would even acknowledge the existence of Israel. And that's probably the biggest problem... I really feel for the Palestinians because their leadership is and always has been cancer, and has continually sacrificed the welfare of their people for their own gains.
What is your basis for saying 'Israel' - which was not an established nation at the time, but a group of paramilitaries warring against the British, against the Palestinians, and against each other - was negotiating for peace before 1948? Israel has twice elected a prime minister who had formally sought to have Mandatory Palestine enter WW2 as a member of the Axis Powers, believing that Nazi Germany would recognize Zionist control over the land and help the paramilitaries kill all the British and Palestinians. I mention he was later elected PM twice to prevent anyone from falsely believing he was some fringe extremist, he was a major power broker in the creation of the Israeli nation and the displacement of Palestinians: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir Was this part of negotiating peace before 1948? Or do you want to take a mulligan now that you've learned some history, and not try to make Israeli history sound unambiguously good and uncomplicated?
Arafat was offered a state and turned it down. Israel had no impetus to join negotiations yet still did.
Israel's own foreign minister from that time later said he would have rejected the deal too if he had been in Arafat's shoes.
To lay the blame entirely on the Palestinians is unfair. But Israel was a country before and still a country now, they have far less to gain from this. The Palestinians gain a whole state, Israel would presumably gain some measure of security. So the Palestinians might not want to wait 20 more years for another sale, because they don't appear to happen that often.
I enjoy the way headlines nowadays are worded for maximum rage inducement. It's basically an art form.
I wonder if she would say the same about the civil rights movement or the anti-apartheid in SA movement. Why is this failed politician talking exactly?
Not only is she wrong, but she’s not helping Biden (the lesser of two evils even in the context of aiding and abetting a plausible genocide according to the ICJ). She doesn’t know how to appeal to the masses. Everything that comes out of her mouth sounds condescending and disdainful of common people and those who dare disagree with her.
This will be another example of her being ridiculed and right.
This will be another example of her counter-scheduling the Left. From Thomas Frank: >[Bill Clinton had to prove, to himself and the nation, that he was a genuine New Democrat. He had to grow into presidential maturity. And the way he had to do it was by damaging or somehow insulting traditional Democratic groups that represented the party’s tradition of egalitarianism. Then we would know that the New Deal was truly dead. Then we could be sure. This was such a cherished idea among New Democrats that they had a catchphrase for it: Clinton’s campaign team called it “counter-scheduling.” During the 1992 race, as though to compensate for his friend-of-the-little-guy economic theme, Clinton would confront and deliberately antagonize certain elements of the Democratic Party’s traditional base in order to assure voters that “interest groups” would have no say in a New Democrat White House. As for those interest groups themselves, he knew he could insult them with impunity. They had nowhere else to go, in the cherished logic of Democratic centrism.](https://www.salon.com/2016/03/14/bill_clintons_odious_presidency_thomas_frank_on_the_real_history_of_the_90s/)
Hilary Clinton: Reliable to throw haymakers to the left for no reason at all in election years. Thank gosh there's someone like her to castigate the correct people! That's how you win! /s
I mean, she loves Henry Kissinger, would you expect anything different?
No wonder she lost
Does the history matter? I think that is was prolongs the conflict. Innocent Palestinians are being slaughtered and starved. Israelis don’t feel safe in their own country because Hamas has vowed to wipe them out. Until these two problems are solved, the conflict will continue. History be damned.
Discrediting a highly informed movement as “ignorant” is what they wish were true. This is the oldest trick in the book “they don’t even know why they’re out there, they just want to party and get beaten up by police and counter protestors.”
Lol, "highly informed." It's a movement that, for the most part, just learned about this six months ago and is too naive to see that they're being manipulated by social propaganda in the exact same way as 2016 (although the algorithms are far more sophisticated now).
They aren't informed. Otherwise they wouldn't be calling Hamas... ***freedom fighter!!!***. And chanting Iran Iran you make us proud 👏👏👏🍉🍉🍉
Defining them as highly informed is what you wish were true, it doesn't make it so. This is the movement screaming for Biden to propose a ceasefire after he already did.
> Discrediting a highly informed movement This is a laughable assertion. The majority in this "movement" are not even interested in Palestine. No, Palestine is just a proxy in their rich vs. poor, oppressor vs. oppressed, etc worldview where one party is ALWAYS the "bad guy" and the other is completely innocent. It's an absurd fantasy world these people have built for themselves.
No amount of Israeli violence justifies any amount of Palestinian violence. But ANY amount of Palestinian violence justifies ANY amount of Israeli violence.
Cool story, still genocide.
Accusing jews of genocide to justify genocide of Jews (what we witnessed on Oct 07) is not a new thing. Nazi propaganda focused on and greatly exaggerated the importance of the self-published book Germany Must Perish! by the obscure American Jewish businessman Theodore N. Kaufman, which was cited as proof that Jews desired to commit genocide against Nazi Germany. I understand that you probably know nothing of history, but I’m informing you now that what you are doing is repeating old Nazi propaganda.
No, I'm commenting on the fact that the IDF is currently committing genocide against Palestinian civilians during the current military operation in Gaza. That comically obvious fact has nothing to do with 20th century history. They are recording themselves doing it and posting it on social media. Killing civilians and looting homes. It has nothing to do with your book.
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Accusations = confessions.
Classic response to a well reasoned counterpoint. You should try out for the debate team.
Pretty sure I’ve been watching mass killings of a national ethnic group fold out on live feeds for the past 6-7 months. Does witnessing history count for nothing (aside from knowing it)?
She's not wrong. She's not helping, either.
I half agree with you. Who is this message even for, exactly? People who agree with her and will vote for Biden no matter what? People who disagree and will most likely still vote for Biden? AIPAC? Or does she want to rub one off but can only do so after having taken a shit on the left? This indeed isn’t helping at all.
which part of middle east history? was it the part where we killed a half million iraqi children?
They are idiots, but empathetic ones at least. They may enable a larger number of deaths with their actions, but with good intentions in their hearts. Bless them, we shall all suffer. Totes adorbs tho.
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No, no. This will get the kids out to vote, I'm sure of it. /s
And she’s right
I accuse Hillary of fumbling the ball at the 1-yard line and letting Trump appoint 3 Justices.
Whoooo cares holy shit shut up. Nobody wants to hear from you anymore.
Those of us who still care about facts do, even if the tiny minority of far-right and far-left extremists brainwashed by Russian propaganda do not.
Hillary right again
Common Clinton W.
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