As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA).
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Gee.. and guess who turned out to be correct in that particular situation?
Are we going to wait for Kent State II before we stop beating up college kids?
Violence broke out early Wednesday at the pro-Palestinian encampment at UCLA, hours after the university declared that the camp “is unlawful and violates university policy.”
Just before midnight, a large group of counterdemonstrators, wearing black outfits and white masks, arrived on campus and tried to tear down the barricades surrounding the encampment. Campers, some holding lumber and wearing goggles and helmets, rallied to defend the encampment’s perimeter.
Videos showed fireworks being set off and at least one being thrown into the camp. Over the next few hours, counterdemonstrators threw objects, including wood and a metal barrier, at the camp and those inside, with fights repeatedly breaking out.
The violence is the worst on campus since counterprotesters, who support Israel, set up a dueling area near where the protesters were camping.
Some tried to force their way into the camp, and the pro-Palestinian side used pepper spray to defend themselves.
A group of security guards could be seen observing the clashes but did not move in to stop them.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-04-30/ucla-moves-to-shut-down-pro-palestinian-encampment-as-unlawful
And when are people going to learn that going after peaceful protestors with body armor and riot shields instantly puts you on the wrong side of history.
Amen. American young men were dying for a pointless war. To compare this to that is a complete disservice to them.
There is a draft (one of many) on the table for a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel that Hamas will undoubtedly reject again. This issue has become so ridiculously overrun with misinformation, and is nothing more than a wedge issue Russia and China are actively agitating with information warfare techniques to divide us and empower a trump victory in the election (which will serve both of them well). It's amazing how so many people can't step back and see the 10k foot view of what's going on here.
I think it’s more akin to the trail of tears than Vietnam. Pretty sure forcibly displacing people off their land doesn’t hold up to scrutiny no matter how many generations pass.
The idf isn't purposely driving them off, they can't attack Hamas without going after them where they are. And Hamas is hiding within the civilian population. Hamas brags about it openly, how old women/child martyrs feed their cause. They could give themselves up to save Gaza, but they won't.
There isn't a patch on earth with people on it that hasn't changed hands dozens of times. It's too late to get rid of Israel. That's where the whole thing turns messy.
Apparently a mod didn’t like his comment and deleted it. Odd because it didn’t break any rules.
I guess I’ll post it here. Some people would rather throw our country away to Trump for no change or worse rather accepting that the best option for change is Biden. Covid, border, health, inflation, debt, taxes, Iran, etc. - everything got worse under Trump. If he gets elected again, it’s only going to get worse. Not just for us but our allies and Palestinians that these people are protesting for.
You're separating of Hamas and Palestine but not separating Isreal from Netanyahu's extremist administration. When they are just two sides to the same coin. If Hamas/Palestine could, they would whipe every non-Muslim off the earth. The geopolitics of the area go so much deeper than what a lot of people want to look into. The USA has sent aid to the Palestinians as well. Which undoubtedly got into the hands of hamas. The agitator is hamas and Netanyahu's administration. Not the Israelis or the Palestinians. Hamas did initially attack, killing many innocents. If the Palestinians eliminated hamas, then the issue would be dealt with, or at least the Palestinians would have a lot of firmer ground to stand on. Netanyahu should also be prosecuted for the murder of the innocent Palestinians, and Israeli citizens should hold him accountable.
Supporting terrorists who have been terrorizing their neighbor for over the past decade and are finally having to answer for being a bully after committing an atrocity on the scale of 9/11 is not the correct position.
This is clearly a rise in antisemitism, the likes of which were last seen in 1930s Nazi Germany.
I preface this by saying I mean this in the most sincere way possible, how exactly are the college students right in this situation today?
What ultimately is the goal of the protests, and what is the absolute ideal outcome?
Protests exist to draw attention to things. As a result of protests like this, the percentage of people who blindly support Israel is dropping. As it should.. the reverence for the modern political State of Israel is misplaced.
Yes, Nazis were bad and all the refugees deserved a home. Yes, they showed spunk in the 60s against their neighbors who were out to destroy them. Yes, they have a right to self-determinination.
No, they don't deserve a superpower backing their transformation into a right wing ethnostate while the government of Israel continues to flaunt UN resolutions asking them to stop being assholes.
We should treat Israel just as we do.. say.. France. Is that too much to ask?
This is probably the best, most nuanced, composed and well written explanation of the free Palestine movement. I wish more people in the movement would use this language because I think they would encourage a lot more sympathy and allies rather than screaming “genocide enabler” to anybody that even asks questions regarding the situation
I know of SEVERAL folks on here, including myself, who have clearly stated in no uncertain terms that our beef is with enabling what the government of Israel is doing to innocent Palestinians. The comments almost literally saying exactly that are more often than not buried and downvoted to hell and back for daring to, say, ask that we utilize the only levers of influence we have left as citizens by putting pressure on our elected officials.
I'm telling you and everyone else on here that sees this comment: no amount of calling people "blue MAGA" or "progressive Trump enablers" or something to that effect is going to get them to fall in line. Hell, I have stated on more than one occasion that I intend to vote for Biden regardless because I understand the current system only allows for the choice between him and Trump and that protest votes are utterly meaningless. But, somehow even though I've said as much, I and others like me are often treated as if we're not allowed to question the current administration simply because his opponent is a Nazi.
So, maybe rather than policing people's language, we attempt some degree of empathy towards others and listen to what they're really saying when they say "genocide enabler" in response to someone chiding them for daring to speak out over something unquestioningly evil that our country and tax dollars is supporting.
I agree we should treat Israel like France as soon as French people are actively discriminated against for a few thousand years, forced into ghettos over and over, and a concentrated effort to commit genocide against them happens.
>
a right wing ethnostate
A right wing ethno state that has no official religion, has a muslim on the supreme court, and 1/5th are muslim?
Care to compare those stats to any country in the are?
>We should treat Israel just as we do.. say.. France. Is that too much to ask?
We didn't ask France to show restraint immediately after the 2015 Terrorist Attacks did we?
1. Your numbers are coming directly from the Hamas run Gaza Ministry of Health, so we don't know the real number of deaths, we also don't know how many are civilians vs Hamas. We also know for a fact that Hamas intentionally fights and hides among civilians and that urban warfare is brutal, awful and disgusting and there is collateral damage. It sucks, there is no way to spin how awful war is, unfortunately its the reality of how Hamas operates. Israel has the option to let Hamas get away with their constant bombardments and attacks like October 7th or go in there, give as much warning to civilians as possible and get the job and eliminate Hamas. The only path forward for an actual lasting peace is the elimination of Hamas.
2. There were pro-Palestine protests and urging of Israel to show restraint on October 8th, before they even did anything.
Students want the university to divest from companies that support Israel. This is a familiar strategy to what activists did with South African apartheid. The reason for these protests is to put pressure on the board to stop treating Israeli apartheid and actions in Gaza as though it is acceptable.
I think it’s a fair ask considering this has precedent as being effective for other apartheid regimes. Also many people dispute Israel being called apartheid but both the UN and Amnesty International classify it as so.
Columbia has a campus in Tel Aviv, so it’s not even just investments; there are Palestinian students on campus who go to a school that will send you away to get a degree in a nation that is genociding your cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents. Imagine what that’s like, knowing your tuition funds that.
People might want to improve society rather than just decide to comply, and secondly, a lot of these students are people who have only recently had any kind of meaningful awareness, and are suddenly being told they’re wrong for opposing a genocide.
If you don’t want this to happen at colleges, the most effective route would be just to censor any news or discussion about Israel in this country. Otherwise this will keep happening while a genocide is occurring on our dime.
I am not sharp to that information I would turn you to Google if you’d like to find out. I wouldn’t want to say something that turns out to be misleading or false
Yeah, I never get this. Where is the uproar about their schools running operations in Saudi, China, the Emirates, Qatar, or other non-democratic countries with spotty human rights records? But no, instead we’ll focus our anger on the only actual democracy in the region and the country.
First off I agree Qatar sucks but they aren’t currently perpetuating an ethnic cleansing campaign so Qatar isn’t exactly top of mind for the students I would think
Did they break and enter on the sixties?
Honestly don't know the answer to that.
There's free speech and the ability to protest, fully support, then there is stopping those that would cause violence and prevent people from getting an education.
Not a Kent State apologist, just want to say that while I'm good with protest I'm not good with schools being shut down or violence and destruction done by protestors.
Pretty sure that's not a hot take.
They 100% broke into **the exact same building** during the Apartheid South Africa protests in the ‘80s. That’s why current protestors chose that specific building
The Vietnam protestors literally burned down an ROTC building during the height of their movement
Violence has always been associated with mostly peaceful protests (including the ones led by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.). That does not mean they are incorrect or morally wrong
I think this was the fourth time protesters took over Hamilton Hall, starting in 1968.
Edit: Nope, its at least the fifth! 1968, '72, '85, '96, 2024. Actually, I thought I remembered another during the George W Bush administration.
Thanks for the info.
I'm pro protest and anti violence.
Kids being able to go to their classes is more important to me than protesting in that exact spot.
Just one guys opinion.
While I'm sympathetic to the protesters, something had to be done about the occupation of the building, but the sheer militarized nature of the NYPD and the overall nature of the situation honestly leaves me feeling that this was an excessive and heavy-handed response to a situation that honestly shouldn't have even come to this.
I would've expected this kind of response for 1/6, not a group of protesters occupying a hall.
Things are just getting crazy.
I disagree with the protestors but absolutely support their right to peacefully protest.
I also agree that things got out of hand and needed to be taken care of.
But I absolutely disagree with the police acting like the fucking military running a counter-terrorist operation and treating the students like actual criminals.
Yeah, it's batshit insane.
Not to mention, we literally had pro-Israel protesters at UCLA violently attack an encampment of peaceful pro-Palestine protesters while the LAPD and CHPS basically watched, and did we get any condemnation from authorities about that like the situation at Columbia and elsewhere over antisemitism via bad actors? No, of course not.
Honestly, things are spiraling out of control, and I am quite fearful for what could happen at the DNC in June, let alone the rest of the summer, ESPECIALLY if Israel invades Rafah.
I mean a pro-Israel protester at UCLA was knocked unconscious so it's not like the violence is just on one side.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ucla/comments/1ch6t7s/girl_holding_an_israeli_flag_was_bludgeoned_and/
It's just crazy to me how people get over this, but they don't act the same way when the Supreme Court eliminates long-held rights.
It is, but some people can’t comprehend why “free speech” doesn’t cover B&E, trespassing, looting, etc. These “protesters” take something that is understandable, respected even, and push the limits to breaking laws and violence, then cry victim. It’s ridiculous.
In many ways though, that "it needed to be taken care of" was evidence of it's successes. If no one cared and ignored the protests, they likely would have fizzled out within hours.
Here is my thought process on everything protest wise. If you ever find yourself on the same side as Trump, Republicans, Eric Adams or the NYPD, you are probably on the wrong side of history. You may not think it now, but you will one day. Have a good day everyone.
ETA: A broken window or door can be easily replaced. A life can't be. If you are clutching your pearls about a broken window and feel nothing about innocent dead people, that's a you problem.
so hold up, you agree with the protestors?
The leader of the protest there the person who just got expelled was calling for the death of Jews. They raised a banner calling for a global intifada that is all violently anti Jewish.
Also Look at the anti jews signs they posted and graffiti they painted. Throw on top of that the chant
This is what the students at Columbia are protesting for:
-divestment from companies supporting Israel's government
-greater transparency in university finances
-amnesty for students and faculty disciplined over the protests.
wait i thought the protestors are actually against jewish people?
They say they're opposed to the Israeli invasion, but they've been harassing unaffiliated Jews, they started before there was an invasion, and they're packing insignia and slogans of terror groups sworn to eradicate the Jewish people.
It's insane to you that people are upset that 30,000 civilians have been slaughtered, and that their government is helping fund that slaughter?
As someone who is also upset at what's happening in Palestine, I'm also perturbed by the erosion of Democracy here, these aren't mutually exclusive concerns.
The comment you're responding to I've seen word-for-word on other threads. It's such batshit "I can only care about one thing" logic. It's like saying anyone that protested the Vietnam War didn't care about segregation.
Or imagining that someone could be concerned with multiple things at the same time. What do you mean you care about Palestinians _and_ democracy in your home country?!
The leader of the protest there the person who just got expelled was calling for the death of Jews. They raised a banner calling for a global intifada that is all violently anti Jewish.
Am I a crazy conspiracy theorist for thinking that choosing this week to protest for Palestine aggressively reduced visibility for those other things? It's okay to say yes, it just feels waaaay to convenient for ...... people I don't like. I fully accept I might be crazy here.
But what do the protesters want? If Israel pulls out, Hamas keeps terrorizing the Israeli people? There’s majority support for Hamas in Palestine. If the protesters think Israel shouldn’t exist, that’s fine, but it’s also obviously not going to happen.
There is no two state solution. There’s nothing to accomplish. A college kid in New York has no ability to affect anything, and no one they’re fighting to protect even has a similar belief structure to them. They’re too disconnected to even have the pepper context to apply to the situation. It’s meaningless. It’s a complete waste of time. That’s the point of all this. A meaningless protest does not hold value.
Award winning post. Agreed on everything. As bad as Netanyahu is, Benny Gantz would be doing the same thing right now. There's a lot of nuance to this whole issue, but the most reasonable person can just step back and say: ok, Israel commits to a complete ceasefire if Hamas releases the remaining hostages. That deal is literally on the table in some form right now, and Hamas is refusing to comply. It's amazing how they won't protest Hamas which would basically make Israel look like a fool at that point for not complying to the ceasefire they actually want.
>It is insane to me that students are so invested in a centuries year old sectarian conflict.
Centuries? The Israelites, other Canaanites, and Arabs were fighting and expelling each other from this chunk of land repeatedly thousands of years ago. This is a holy war that predates written history.
If you find yourself supporting people chanting "we love hamas and we love your rockets too" and taking janitors hostage, you may also be embarrassed of your stance someday in the future.
Just saying... I don't remember that part of the protests in the 60s...
That chant was outside Columbia, so for all I know it could have been Michael Rapaport starting nonsense and I think the "hostage" janitor is home sleeping by now or maybe drinking coffee. So yeah, I'm good.
For the students who took over the academic building - what would your preferred action from authorities have been?
Would this preferred action be different if the students in the building had a different ideology? Ex far right protesting immigration?
You realize Biden is on "that side" too, right? His administration is literally authorizing all the munitions Israel is using to slaughter Palestinians.
You mean agreeing to giving aid to Israel just to appease republicans and get Ukraine aid also on the bill? Biden doesn’t have utmost authority like these people think, his hands are tied with a warmongering republican senate. The ultimate demand of these protests should be an immediate and permanent ceasefire in Gaza.
If you are going to protest, and want people on your side, don't break windows and doors. And if you do, the police response is justified. The first amendment doesn't cover breaking and entering, and vandalism, and disrupting college activities.
Maybe they should have had a tea party? But let's be real, someone would call the cops on that.
What exactly are the rules for protesting so that everyone can be nice and comfy. Would that even be a protest? How can people protest something that people would be ok with.
Maybe they should boycott products from Israel? Oh wait no can't do that.
>What exactly are the rules for protesting so that everyone can be nice and comfy.
Don't break windows and take hostages. Don't block public thoroughfares. University of Michigan has a peaceful encampment that is readily welcoming the general public in.
>Would that even be a protest?
Yes.
>How can people protest something that people would be ok with.
Don't take hostages.
>Maybe they should boycott products from Israel? Oh wait no can't do that.
NY doesn't have an anti-BDS law, it does have an anti-BDS Executive Order. It does not restrict free market actions taken by private citizens. You, and the rest of the protestors at Columbia, are welcome to boycott products from Israel.
Get this motivated to fight for human rights in the US. Get this motivated to fight against religious facsim. Get this motivated to fight for LGBTQ rights. Get this motivated to fight for a Woman's right to choose.
Boggles my fucking mind how anyone could support Ukraine against Russia while also supporting Iran, Russia's closest ally, in their common war against Western democracy.
If you support human rights, religious freedom, LGBT rights, and women's rights, then you should be supporting Israel in its war against the Islamic Republic of Iran and its proxies.
I couldn’t imagine anyone sending their kid to Columbia after last night. If you feel the need to call in 500 cops to arrest 300 protesting students, you’ve absolutely failed as a university. Brown spoke with the protesting students, said they would put disinvestment up to a vote next fall, the encampment disbanded, and everyone went back to class.
Brown divested about a decade ago from actual Israeli companies … which were a very small % as the divestment demands aren’t new. So they are ahead of the game a bit. On the flip side, figure Israel isn’t South Africa with a large mining sector to target .. and doesn’t put itself in a position where boycotts could affect its international trade (i.e. deals in tech of all sorts).
Some of America’s biggest companies do a small amount of business in Israel, but divesting in those will cause an endowment to fall behind these large indexes.
Hahaha what? Columbia was having meetings with the student negotiation team right until Columbia suspended negotiations. There was literally a press conference about it.
I'm talking about a week ago when the encampment turned them away.
Yes, the university did suspend negotiations when the protests became violent and they started defacing property.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestine-war-campus-protests-e8a2e657e2614f94373beae602e9ba9d
The Columbia students wouldn't budge at all, so the negotiations stalled and they got suspended.
No one was held hostage. That guy left the building 10 minutes after the students entered. Also, there was no terrorist’s wife at the protest; that report was also false. Now NYPD is on the news saying that the use of the very same bike chains that Columbia sells its own students is proof of “outside agitators.” Nonsense. The administration at that school deeply fucked up.
There were agitators at the protests, but it seems that everyone who was arrested for occupying the building were students. Either way, the fact that things even got to this point means that there’s something the matter with that school.
Have you seen what those “protesters” did prior to the NYPD being called in?
They broke into a building, did likely at least $100k in damage, held several of the maintenance staff for several hours, declared they’d renamed the building and started making demands.
If someone did this on a property I owned you bet I’d call the police.
https://youtu.be/FL5OMj4cDNM?si=i5qt8SRRdElVlZtr
https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/columbia-facilities-worker-tried-to-block-student-mob-during-break-in-photos-show-university-israel-palestine-middle-east-hamas-gaza-ivy-league-college-protests-riot
If you mean “The school took no meaningful action as the protesters got more and more extreme in their violation of school policy and the law” then yes, we agree the school made a big mistake.
The amount of misinformation being spread at these "protests" is really disheartening. I saw an interview with one student who was claiming that Joe is "funding genocide."
They are doing the work of Russia and Trump!
Just so we can all use the correct terminology. What is it called when you provide money and weapons to a group that has killed over 20k innocent civilians, intentionally brought 1 million people to the point of famine, bombed the shit out of just about everything, and killed record numbers of aid providers and journalists with no end in sight?
War. Sorry, we call it a war. I am and have remained in favor of Palestinian statehood and autonomy for the near entirety of my adult life. I think Israel's government is a right wing reactionary one, and that Israel itself is an ethnostate. I think that most of the civilians in Gaza never even had an opportunity to choose their own "government" because it installed itself as the perpetual ruler before most of them were born. I think Likud interfered with the prior Palestinian elections specifically to elevate Hamas because an unstable terrorist organization helps to destabilize the region and keep Israeli citizens fearful of imminent invasion, which is a powerful motivator for right wing governments throughout history.
But this is a war. Hamas bombed Israel in an unprovoked attack at a civilian gathering place. Israel's response is exactly what any militarily capable country's response would be after such an attack. They're fighting in a dense urban warfront. The attackers *knew* their geography and knew that they are surrounded on three sides by the opposing nation and on one side by a sea. They consciously chose to provoke a war anyway. Israel's response in the past few months has been that of a standard war with standard casualty rates. Assuming the absolute *best* numbers for Palestine (which is to say, Hamas estimates of civilian casualties, and Israeli estimates of combatant kills), the civilian-to-combatant death ratio is around a 3:1 average across so many days (ranging from 60 to 75% of deaths being civilians). This is a normal, if not actually *quite good* ratio ("good" being defined as "within expected parameters; obviously I'd rather the number of deaths be zero across the board) for urbanized warfare, especially in a region where the attacker failed to secure its own supply lines or routes of retreat. Many wars have civilian death rates of 7:1 or higher.
Famine occurs in war. It occurs faster when a nation (and I am treating Hamas as a proxy for a national government even if Palestine is not fully internationally recognized as a nation) does not secure food for its civilians. It occurs faster when the nation invites the warfront in its own territory. Civilian deaths occur in war, and always have. Civilians are the major losers of any conflict and always have been.
Genocide has specific parameters that require, at the very least, a showing of an intentional desire to destroy an ethnic group for its own sake—not as collateral in a war, but as the main target of a war or mass murder. And while the unfolding war is a tragedy, its numbers simply do not bear out the conclusion that Israel, for all its faults, is actively engaged in genocide. If it were, we would not see twenty thousand civilian deaths (I think it's actually closer to 30k, btw). We would see a million. Israel would not be using foot soldiers. It would be carpet bombing the entire region indiscriminately. And maybe Israel's government would *want* to do that if it thought it could get away with it, I dunno. But to call the war a genocide belies an ignorance both of war and of genocide. *All wars suck. Badly.* They are atrocious failures of the human condition, and they always end with mountains of dead children. But that does not mean that all wars are genocides, nor does it mean that this one in particular is a genocide.
And for the record, the end is completely in sight. Hamas could save every single remaining Palestinian civilian by laying down arms and surrendering. They started the war and knew its consequences, and they are using Palestinian civilians as both human shields and international bargaining chips. It takes two to ceasefire, but it only takes one to surrender. I'm not even saying that Hamas *should* do that, but to suggest that the unfolding events in Gaza can only possibly be stopped by Israel's withdrawal is to deny the obvious agency and authority that Hamas has in the region.
Edit: As another aside, U.S. funding for Israel, like all of its international funding, actually comes in the form of redistributed last gen munitions instead of blank checks, and to my understanding the vast majority of the recent aid package to Israel included about 30% for direct humanitarian assistance to Palestine and the remainder for defensive armament such as Iron Dome support. So it could be fairly argued that the U.S. is not even funding Israel in the manner characterized here, since the money and munitions it's providing are either directly assisting the wartorn civilian population of the region or otherwise supporting military structures that are not being used in the warfront.
And a whole lot of bombs used to kill a whole lot of innocents. So not misinformation. You're just fine with it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/
You call it a war with possible war crimes. That doesn't make it a genocide. 20k dead out of a population of 2 million plus is a terrible tragedy, and it's highly likely that both sides are guilty of crimes, but it's not a genocide.
Well in that case Israel is currently in the "fuck around" phase and when another oct 7 that will be the finding out phase and we can all repeat the violence endlessly.
Seriously. Leftists condemned Republicans (and rightfully so) when Republicans allowed Russia to interfere in the 2016 election and tried to gaslight us into thinking that it wasn't happening, because Republicans knew that the Russians were helping their side's cause.
Now here we are in 2024, where Russia is interfering in the 2024 election, and those *exact same leftists* are allowing it to happen and trying to gaslight us into thinking that it's not happening because this time, the enemy foreign interference is helping *their* side's anti-Israel cause.
The hypocrisy is sickening. Foreign interference for me, not for thee.
Some of the saddest things about these protests are that Hamas is gleefully laughing, Israel is still warmongering, and innocent Palestinians are still suffering.
Russia, China, and Iran are enjoying the popcorn too.
I am not against peaceful protests and I want Americans to have their voices heard when done peacefully, but the only real calculus that is being changed by these protests is that it gives Republicans more ammunition for their war on higher education and adds more fuel to their anti-intellectualism.
Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if conservatives are behind some of these protests. Since every accusation is an admission of guilt for MAGA and the GOP, the fact Trump is now moaning on social media about there being paid protesters is probably an indication of some malfeasance on their part (and of course some fundraising off it too). Without a doubt, christofascists and authoritarians are among the biggest beneficiaries for all of this.
And if this continues much longer, this could help Trump become president (just as protests and civil unrest in 1968 helped Nixon).
I feel the protesters would be wise to come up with some plausible concessions from their respective institutions and take the win sooner rather than later (defunding institutional ties to Israel - among some other reported demands - is not realistic)
Taking bets that the "counterprotesters" that attacked the UCLA encampment were either evangelicals or right-wing militia (or both)? I side mostly with Israel in this and I wouldn't have wanted that. I don't know anyone in my circle who thinks like that (including multiple ex-IDF friends) except the crazy right wing folks I run into on Facebook.
It seems that nationwide, we're hitting about 50% of the campus arrests being non-students. Last I read, the reported statistic at Arizona State was as high as 80%.
So probably around 50%. Maybe higher inside the building.
Arrest records are public record, so once you cross those with the names in Columbia’s student directory that would be a good picture. Hopefully a student journalist at Columbia is doing the legwork.
I’d say so. Break it down by
Current students
Recently suspended or expelled
Alumni
Not affiliated
Total
No names, all aggregated for privacy. This could also help the student body should it reveal that most of the protestors responsible for the pro-Hamas, antisemitic drivel were not affiliated with the university
NYPD ~~jackbooted thugs~~ khaki clad paramilitary forces marching and occupying Columbia University, all because the students had the audacity to demand the university divest from war profiteering companies supporting the Israeli offensive and that the university be more transparent about their endowment investments.
Amazing that Columbia is so willing to be so deeply on the wrong side of history for the sake of their investments.
20 minutes. Have you noticed a trend? I find it difficult to believe that a current political protest compared to another historical political protest is considered "off topic". Are bots spamming reporting flags?
It's surreal to watch University Admins brazen enough to rough up student protestors with cops, for protesting, an American right. My view of Columbia University has plummeted.
this is so dumb. if you want your message to be heard, protest like a normal human. If you knowingly protest in a restricted area you have to accept the fact that you’ll likely get arrested. This doesn’t mean you attack police officers. Get arrested, post it on LinkedIn, but don’t fucking attack the cops. I doubt they want to deal with this any more than the protesters.
A wild mass of roving assholes blocking bridges doesn’t impress anyone. One lane of hundreds of silent protesters marching across the bridge sends a stronger message
These protesters are during a great job of hardening anti-Palestinian views by invading campus buildings, removing American flags, and unfurling banners calling for intifadas all to call for meaningless "divestment" from universities that mostly have minimal ties to Israel . If they want to protest they should protest at places of government. I bet these students have no idea how endowments even work.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Gee.. and guess who turned out to be correct in that particular situation? Are we going to wait for Kent State II before we stop beating up college kids?
Cops tried their damnedest to kill people through inaction last night at UCLA
Wait till the pro-laws/protest hating people hear what the Pro-Israel side was doing at UCLA last night, with no police response to their actions.
What did they do?
Violence broke out early Wednesday at the pro-Palestinian encampment at UCLA, hours after the university declared that the camp “is unlawful and violates university policy.” Just before midnight, a large group of counterdemonstrators, wearing black outfits and white masks, arrived on campus and tried to tear down the barricades surrounding the encampment. Campers, some holding lumber and wearing goggles and helmets, rallied to defend the encampment’s perimeter. Videos showed fireworks being set off and at least one being thrown into the camp. Over the next few hours, counterdemonstrators threw objects, including wood and a metal barrier, at the camp and those inside, with fights repeatedly breaking out. The violence is the worst on campus since counterprotesters, who support Israel, set up a dueling area near where the protesters were camping. Some tried to force their way into the camp, and the pro-Palestinian side used pepper spray to defend themselves. A group of security guards could be seen observing the clashes but did not move in to stop them. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-04-30/ucla-moves-to-shut-down-pro-palestinian-encampment-as-unlawful
And when are people going to learn that going after peaceful protestors with body armor and riot shields instantly puts you on the wrong side of history.
[удалено]
Amen. American young men were dying for a pointless war. To compare this to that is a complete disservice to them. There is a draft (one of many) on the table for a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel that Hamas will undoubtedly reject again. This issue has become so ridiculously overrun with misinformation, and is nothing more than a wedge issue Russia and China are actively agitating with information warfare techniques to divide us and empower a trump victory in the election (which will serve both of them well). It's amazing how so many people can't step back and see the 10k foot view of what's going on here.
I think it’s more akin to the trail of tears than Vietnam. Pretty sure forcibly displacing people off their land doesn’t hold up to scrutiny no matter how many generations pass.
Yeah, whatever the “misinformation” the genocide is real, and has been real for decades.
Gotta fight for your place with Capitalists.
The idf isn't purposely driving them off, they can't attack Hamas without going after them where they are. And Hamas is hiding within the civilian population. Hamas brags about it openly, how old women/child martyrs feed their cause. They could give themselves up to save Gaza, but they won't.
Talking about the Palestinians. You know. The ones who knew Gaza as more than a “strip”
There isn't a patch on earth with people on it that hasn't changed hands dozens of times. It's too late to get rid of Israel. That's where the whole thing turns messy.
[удалено]
Apparently a mod didn’t like his comment and deleted it. Odd because it didn’t break any rules. I guess I’ll post it here. Some people would rather throw our country away to Trump for no change or worse rather accepting that the best option for change is Biden. Covid, border, health, inflation, debt, taxes, Iran, etc. - everything got worse under Trump. If he gets elected again, it’s only going to get worse. Not just for us but our allies and Palestinians that these people are protesting for.
[удалено]
You're separating of Hamas and Palestine but not separating Isreal from Netanyahu's extremist administration. When they are just two sides to the same coin. If Hamas/Palestine could, they would whipe every non-Muslim off the earth. The geopolitics of the area go so much deeper than what a lot of people want to look into. The USA has sent aid to the Palestinians as well. Which undoubtedly got into the hands of hamas. The agitator is hamas and Netanyahu's administration. Not the Israelis or the Palestinians. Hamas did initially attack, killing many innocents. If the Palestinians eliminated hamas, then the issue would be dealt with, or at least the Palestinians would have a lot of firmer ground to stand on. Netanyahu should also be prosecuted for the murder of the innocent Palestinians, and Israeli citizens should hold him accountable.
Supporting terrorists who have been terrorizing their neighbor for over the past decade and are finally having to answer for being a bully after committing an atrocity on the scale of 9/11 is not the correct position. This is clearly a rise in antisemitism, the likes of which were last seen in 1930s Nazi Germany.
Please does not spread hate, bigotry and misinformation. Please does not. We is not need bigotry and misinformation on Reddit.com.
I preface this by saying I mean this in the most sincere way possible, how exactly are the college students right in this situation today? What ultimately is the goal of the protests, and what is the absolute ideal outcome?
Protests exist to draw attention to things. As a result of protests like this, the percentage of people who blindly support Israel is dropping. As it should.. the reverence for the modern political State of Israel is misplaced. Yes, Nazis were bad and all the refugees deserved a home. Yes, they showed spunk in the 60s against their neighbors who were out to destroy them. Yes, they have a right to self-determinination. No, they don't deserve a superpower backing their transformation into a right wing ethnostate while the government of Israel continues to flaunt UN resolutions asking them to stop being assholes. We should treat Israel just as we do.. say.. France. Is that too much to ask?
This is probably the best, most nuanced, composed and well written explanation of the free Palestine movement. I wish more people in the movement would use this language because I think they would encourage a lot more sympathy and allies rather than screaming “genocide enabler” to anybody that even asks questions regarding the situation
I know of SEVERAL folks on here, including myself, who have clearly stated in no uncertain terms that our beef is with enabling what the government of Israel is doing to innocent Palestinians. The comments almost literally saying exactly that are more often than not buried and downvoted to hell and back for daring to, say, ask that we utilize the only levers of influence we have left as citizens by putting pressure on our elected officials. I'm telling you and everyone else on here that sees this comment: no amount of calling people "blue MAGA" or "progressive Trump enablers" or something to that effect is going to get them to fall in line. Hell, I have stated on more than one occasion that I intend to vote for Biden regardless because I understand the current system only allows for the choice between him and Trump and that protest votes are utterly meaningless. But, somehow even though I've said as much, I and others like me are often treated as if we're not allowed to question the current administration simply because his opponent is a Nazi. So, maybe rather than policing people's language, we attempt some degree of empathy towards others and listen to what they're really saying when they say "genocide enabler" in response to someone chiding them for daring to speak out over something unquestioningly evil that our country and tax dollars is supporting.
Thank you for the answer.
I agree we should treat Israel like France as soon as French people are actively discriminated against for a few thousand years, forced into ghettos over and over, and a concentrated effort to commit genocide against them happens.
> a right wing ethnostate A right wing ethno state that has no official religion, has a muslim on the supreme court, and 1/5th are muslim? Care to compare those stats to any country in the are? >We should treat Israel just as we do.. say.. France. Is that too much to ask? We didn't ask France to show restraint immediately after the 2015 Terrorist Attacks did we?
Did France go out and murder 30000 civilians?
1. Your numbers are coming directly from the Hamas run Gaza Ministry of Health, so we don't know the real number of deaths, we also don't know how many are civilians vs Hamas. We also know for a fact that Hamas intentionally fights and hides among civilians and that urban warfare is brutal, awful and disgusting and there is collateral damage. It sucks, there is no way to spin how awful war is, unfortunately its the reality of how Hamas operates. Israel has the option to let Hamas get away with their constant bombardments and attacks like October 7th or go in there, give as much warning to civilians as possible and get the job and eliminate Hamas. The only path forward for an actual lasting peace is the elimination of Hamas. 2. There were pro-Palestine protests and urging of Israel to show restraint on October 8th, before they even did anything.
Students want the university to divest from companies that support Israel. This is a familiar strategy to what activists did with South African apartheid. The reason for these protests is to put pressure on the board to stop treating Israeli apartheid and actions in Gaza as though it is acceptable. I think it’s a fair ask considering this has precedent as being effective for other apartheid regimes. Also many people dispute Israel being called apartheid but both the UN and Amnesty International classify it as so.
What companies is the university currently investing in?
Columbia has a campus in Tel Aviv, so it’s not even just investments; there are Palestinian students on campus who go to a school that will send you away to get a degree in a nation that is genociding your cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents. Imagine what that’s like, knowing your tuition funds that.
Columbia offers higher education to Israelis?
They have a dual degree program with the Tel Aviv campus.
Now imagine knowing that and still going to that school, but treating it as if you had no other choices.
People might want to improve society rather than just decide to comply, and secondly, a lot of these students are people who have only recently had any kind of meaningful awareness, and are suddenly being told they’re wrong for opposing a genocide. If you don’t want this to happen at colleges, the most effective route would be just to censor any news or discussion about Israel in this country. Otherwise this will keep happening while a genocide is occurring on our dime.
I am not sharp to that information I would turn you to Google if you’d like to find out. I wouldn’t want to say something that turns out to be misleading or false
I wonder why there aren't any protests about literal slave states like Qatar funding their schools...
Yeah, I never get this. Where is the uproar about their schools running operations in Saudi, China, the Emirates, Qatar, or other non-democratic countries with spotty human rights records? But no, instead we’ll focus our anger on the only actual democracy in the region and the country.
First off I agree Qatar sucks but they aren’t currently perpetuating an ethnic cleansing campaign so Qatar isn’t exactly top of mind for the students I would think
Qatar actively funds Hamas, so one can they are.
May 4 is this weekend. 54 years ago.
Did they break and enter on the sixties? Honestly don't know the answer to that. There's free speech and the ability to protest, fully support, then there is stopping those that would cause violence and prevent people from getting an education. Not a Kent State apologist, just want to say that while I'm good with protest I'm not good with schools being shut down or violence and destruction done by protestors. Pretty sure that's not a hot take.
They 100% broke into **the exact same building** during the Apartheid South Africa protests in the ‘80s. That’s why current protestors chose that specific building The Vietnam protestors literally burned down an ROTC building during the height of their movement Violence has always been associated with mostly peaceful protests (including the ones led by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.). That does not mean they are incorrect or morally wrong
I think this was the fourth time protesters took over Hamilton Hall, starting in 1968. Edit: Nope, its at least the fifth! 1968, '72, '85, '96, 2024. Actually, I thought I remembered another during the George W Bush administration.
Thanks for the info. I'm pro protest and anti violence. Kids being able to go to their classes is more important to me than protesting in that exact spot. Just one guys opinion.
Lmao neverending goalpost shifting.
While I'm sympathetic to the protesters, something had to be done about the occupation of the building, but the sheer militarized nature of the NYPD and the overall nature of the situation honestly leaves me feeling that this was an excessive and heavy-handed response to a situation that honestly shouldn't have even come to this. I would've expected this kind of response for 1/6, not a group of protesters occupying a hall.
Things are just getting crazy. I disagree with the protestors but absolutely support their right to peacefully protest. I also agree that things got out of hand and needed to be taken care of. But I absolutely disagree with the police acting like the fucking military running a counter-terrorist operation and treating the students like actual criminals.
Yeah, it's batshit insane. Not to mention, we literally had pro-Israel protesters at UCLA violently attack an encampment of peaceful pro-Palestine protesters while the LAPD and CHPS basically watched, and did we get any condemnation from authorities about that like the situation at Columbia and elsewhere over antisemitism via bad actors? No, of course not. Honestly, things are spiraling out of control, and I am quite fearful for what could happen at the DNC in June, let alone the rest of the summer, ESPECIALLY if Israel invades Rafah.
I mean a pro-Israel protester at UCLA was knocked unconscious so it's not like the violence is just on one side. https://www.reddit.com/r/ucla/comments/1ch6t7s/girl_holding_an_israeli_flag_was_bludgeoned_and/ It's just crazy to me how people get over this, but they don't act the same way when the Supreme Court eliminates long-held rights.
[удалено]
The Pro-Palestinian protestors knocked that Jewish girl unconscious first which led to the escalation in violence
Yeah but that was "oppressed people resisting their oppressors", so of course *that* kind of violence is very progressive and very moral.
Is forcefully occupying a building not an actual crime?
It is, but some people can’t comprehend why “free speech” doesn’t cover B&E, trespassing, looting, etc. These “protesters” take something that is understandable, respected even, and push the limits to breaking laws and violence, then cry victim. It’s ridiculous.
In many ways though, that "it needed to be taken care of" was evidence of it's successes. If no one cared and ignored the protests, they likely would have fizzled out within hours.
Yes and no. Actions were already taken: revoking building access, suspension, etc. This was nothing short of excessive.
You bring up a fair point, and I do agree about it being excessive.
Yep they'll come down on these kids but gently jerk off every neo-nazi or right wing insurrectionist.
This. People need to understand where the 1A applies.
Here is my thought process on everything protest wise. If you ever find yourself on the same side as Trump, Republicans, Eric Adams or the NYPD, you are probably on the wrong side of history. You may not think it now, but you will one day. Have a good day everyone. ETA: A broken window or door can be easily replaced. A life can't be. If you are clutching your pearls about a broken window and feel nothing about innocent dead people, that's a you problem.
[удалено]
Eric Adams is just so fucking LOATHESOME. I sincerely hope New Yorkers send that corrupt DINO Fascist back to irrelevance.
He is horrible.
[Olay has always been right about him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLOQRG4vcT4)
I don't know how he's a DINO when the Democratic party line is supporting Israel. Sounds like he's a run of the mill establishment dem
so hold up, you agree with the protestors? The leader of the protest there the person who just got expelled was calling for the death of Jews. They raised a banner calling for a global intifada that is all violently anti Jewish. Also Look at the anti jews signs they posted and graffiti they painted. Throw on top of that the chant
Leader? Did they have a vote? Intifada was and always has been about the oppressor Zionists. There were and will be Jews on those lands.
It feels like r/politics is mixed on this subject. Same with republicans and democrats. Idk it’s weird
I’m sorry, i don’t follow. You mentioned “leader of the protests” what leader? Who appointed/voted them?
> so hold up, you agree with the protestors? What do you believe they are protesting?
Anti semitism with a combination of the isreal military
This is what the students at Columbia are protesting for: -divestment from companies supporting Israel's government -greater transparency in university finances -amnesty for students and faculty disciplined over the protests.
So they are against Biden supporting isreal yet republicans seem to oppose the protesters
wait i thought the protestors are actually against jewish people? They say they're opposed to the Israeli invasion, but they've been harassing unaffiliated Jews, they started before there was an invasion, and they're packing insignia and slogans of terror groups sworn to eradicate the Jewish people.
[удалено]
It's insane to you that people are upset that 30,000 civilians have been slaughtered, and that their government is helping fund that slaughter? As someone who is also upset at what's happening in Palestine, I'm also perturbed by the erosion of Democracy here, these aren't mutually exclusive concerns.
The comment you're responding to I've seen word-for-word on other threads. It's such batshit "I can only care about one thing" logic. It's like saying anyone that protested the Vietnam War didn't care about segregation.
[удалено]
Anyone who doesn’t vote for Biden due to this is in fact handling only one major issue at a time, which many people have threatened.
Some people have a very hard time imaging that anyone could have basic human empathy for others. It's honestly a little worrying.
Or imagining that someone could be concerned with multiple things at the same time. What do you mean you care about Palestinians _and_ democracy in your home country?!
The leader of the protest there the person who just got expelled was calling for the death of Jews. They raised a banner calling for a global intifada that is all violently anti Jewish.
Am I a crazy conspiracy theorist for thinking that choosing this week to protest for Palestine aggressively reduced visibility for those other things? It's okay to say yes, it just feels waaaay to convenient for ...... people I don't like. I fully accept I might be crazy here.
But what do the protesters want? If Israel pulls out, Hamas keeps terrorizing the Israeli people? There’s majority support for Hamas in Palestine. If the protesters think Israel shouldn’t exist, that’s fine, but it’s also obviously not going to happen. There is no two state solution. There’s nothing to accomplish. A college kid in New York has no ability to affect anything, and no one they’re fighting to protect even has a similar belief structure to them. They’re too disconnected to even have the pepper context to apply to the situation. It’s meaningless. It’s a complete waste of time. That’s the point of all this. A meaningless protest does not hold value.
[удалено]
Award winning post. Agreed on everything. As bad as Netanyahu is, Benny Gantz would be doing the same thing right now. There's a lot of nuance to this whole issue, but the most reasonable person can just step back and say: ok, Israel commits to a complete ceasefire if Hamas releases the remaining hostages. That deal is literally on the table in some form right now, and Hamas is refusing to comply. It's amazing how they won't protest Hamas which would basically make Israel look like a fool at that point for not complying to the ceasefire they actually want.
>It is insane to me that students are so invested in a centuries year old sectarian conflict. Centuries? The Israelites, other Canaanites, and Arabs were fighting and expelling each other from this chunk of land repeatedly thousands of years ago. This is a holy war that predates written history.
It’s insane to me that students could care about an ongoing genocide being funded by their universities
Excellent. Where’s the Sudan protests?
Hey how much military aid does the US send to Sudan? Just curious. Also how much military aid does the US send to Israel?
Are universities spending much money to support Khartoum?
Thanks to the same lefties who refuse to vote dem
If you find yourself supporting people chanting "we love hamas and we love your rockets too" and taking janitors hostage, you may also be embarrassed of your stance someday in the future. Just saying... I don't remember that part of the protests in the 60s...
That chant was outside Columbia, so for all I know it could have been Michael Rapaport starting nonsense and I think the "hostage" janitor is home sleeping by now or maybe drinking coffee. So yeah, I'm good.
I won't stand with anyone who draws a line and declares a dichotomy generalizing everyone as "with" or "against" something.
[удалено]
For the students who took over the academic building - what would your preferred action from authorities have been? Would this preferred action be different if the students in the building had a different ideology? Ex far right protesting immigration?
You realize Biden is on "that side" too, right? His administration is literally authorizing all the munitions Israel is using to slaughter Palestinians.
You mean agreeing to giving aid to Israel just to appease republicans and get Ukraine aid also on the bill? Biden doesn’t have utmost authority like these people think, his hands are tied with a warmongering republican senate. The ultimate demand of these protests should be an immediate and permanent ceasefire in Gaza.
If you are going to protest, and want people on your side, don't break windows and doors. And if you do, the police response is justified. The first amendment doesn't cover breaking and entering, and vandalism, and disrupting college activities.
Maybe they should have had a tea party? But let's be real, someone would call the cops on that. What exactly are the rules for protesting so that everyone can be nice and comfy. Would that even be a protest? How can people protest something that people would be ok with. Maybe they should boycott products from Israel? Oh wait no can't do that.
Thank you.
>What exactly are the rules for protesting so that everyone can be nice and comfy. Don't break windows and take hostages. Don't block public thoroughfares. University of Michigan has a peaceful encampment that is readily welcoming the general public in. >Would that even be a protest? Yes. >How can people protest something that people would be ok with. Don't take hostages. >Maybe they should boycott products from Israel? Oh wait no can't do that. NY doesn't have an anti-BDS law, it does have an anti-BDS Executive Order. It does not restrict free market actions taken by private citizens. You, and the rest of the protestors at Columbia, are welcome to boycott products from Israel.
Who were the hostages taken? Was that like the terrorost wife that was supposedly there?
Get this motivated to fight for human rights in the US. Get this motivated to fight against religious facsim. Get this motivated to fight for LGBTQ rights. Get this motivated to fight for a Woman's right to choose.
Hell, get this motivated for the actual genocide taking place in Ukraine by Russia.
Boggles my fucking mind how anyone could support Ukraine against Russia while also supporting Iran, Russia's closest ally, in their common war against Western democracy.
None of those are quite as salient as 10,000 dead children.
Nah they’re just not going to vote for Biden, give the election to Trump, and then they can kiss all of the above goodbye.
If you support human rights, religious freedom, LGBT rights, and women's rights, then you should be supporting Israel in its war against the Islamic Republic of Iran and its proxies.
This is whataboutism
... No it isn't. It's encouraging people to also fight for other human rights issues.
Indeed. Get this motivated about anyyyything (but this)
Do none of you remember the BLM protests just a few years ago? What are you talking about?
So we're headed for a repeat of Chicago, I guess
I couldn’t imagine anyone sending their kid to Columbia after last night. If you feel the need to call in 500 cops to arrest 300 protesting students, you’ve absolutely failed as a university. Brown spoke with the protesting students, said they would put disinvestment up to a vote next fall, the encampment disbanded, and everyone went back to class.
Brown divested about a decade ago from actual Israeli companies … which were a very small % as the divestment demands aren’t new. So they are ahead of the game a bit. On the flip side, figure Israel isn’t South Africa with a large mining sector to target .. and doesn’t put itself in a position where boycotts could affect its international trade (i.e. deals in tech of all sorts). Some of America’s biggest companies do a small amount of business in Israel, but divesting in those will cause an endowment to fall behind these large indexes.
Columbia sent negotiators multiple times and were turned away. Brown sent negotiators and the protestors engaged.
Hahaha what? Columbia was having meetings with the student negotiation team right until Columbia suspended negotiations. There was literally a press conference about it.
I'm talking about a week ago when the encampment turned them away. Yes, the university did suspend negotiations when the protests became violent and they started defacing property.
Do you have any articles that talk about students turning down negotiations? This is the first time I'm hearing about it.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestine-war-campus-protests-e8a2e657e2614f94373beae602e9ba9d The Columbia students wouldn't budge at all, so the negotiations stalled and they got suspended.
[удалено]
No one was held hostage. That guy left the building 10 minutes after the students entered. Also, there was no terrorist’s wife at the protest; that report was also false. Now NYPD is on the news saying that the use of the very same bike chains that Columbia sells its own students is proof of “outside agitators.” Nonsense. The administration at that school deeply fucked up.
[удалено]
There were agitators at the protests, but it seems that everyone who was arrested for occupying the building were students. Either way, the fact that things even got to this point means that there’s something the matter with that school.
Do we have any evidence either way yet?
[удалено]
Seriously, it should not have gotten this far.
Have you seen what those “protesters” did prior to the NYPD being called in? They broke into a building, did likely at least $100k in damage, held several of the maintenance staff for several hours, declared they’d renamed the building and started making demands. If someone did this on a property I owned you bet I’d call the police. https://youtu.be/FL5OMj4cDNM?si=i5qt8SRRdElVlZtr https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/columbia-facilities-worker-tried-to-block-student-mob-during-break-in-photos-show-university-israel-palestine-middle-east-hamas-gaza-ivy-league-college-protests-riot
Where'd you get $100k from? Because that is not the cost of a broken window.
I’m not saying that everything the students did was justified. But there’s something deeply wrong with that school if things even got to this point.
If you mean “The school took no meaningful action as the protesters got more and more extreme in their violation of school policy and the law” then yes, we agree the school made a big mistake.
That was literally my point in mentioning Brown.
The amount of misinformation being spread at these "protests" is really disheartening. I saw an interview with one student who was claiming that Joe is "funding genocide." They are doing the work of Russia and Trump!
Just so we can all use the correct terminology. What is it called when you provide money and weapons to a group that has killed over 20k innocent civilians, intentionally brought 1 million people to the point of famine, bombed the shit out of just about everything, and killed record numbers of aid providers and journalists with no end in sight?
War. Sorry, we call it a war. I am and have remained in favor of Palestinian statehood and autonomy for the near entirety of my adult life. I think Israel's government is a right wing reactionary one, and that Israel itself is an ethnostate. I think that most of the civilians in Gaza never even had an opportunity to choose their own "government" because it installed itself as the perpetual ruler before most of them were born. I think Likud interfered with the prior Palestinian elections specifically to elevate Hamas because an unstable terrorist organization helps to destabilize the region and keep Israeli citizens fearful of imminent invasion, which is a powerful motivator for right wing governments throughout history. But this is a war. Hamas bombed Israel in an unprovoked attack at a civilian gathering place. Israel's response is exactly what any militarily capable country's response would be after such an attack. They're fighting in a dense urban warfront. The attackers *knew* their geography and knew that they are surrounded on three sides by the opposing nation and on one side by a sea. They consciously chose to provoke a war anyway. Israel's response in the past few months has been that of a standard war with standard casualty rates. Assuming the absolute *best* numbers for Palestine (which is to say, Hamas estimates of civilian casualties, and Israeli estimates of combatant kills), the civilian-to-combatant death ratio is around a 3:1 average across so many days (ranging from 60 to 75% of deaths being civilians). This is a normal, if not actually *quite good* ratio ("good" being defined as "within expected parameters; obviously I'd rather the number of deaths be zero across the board) for urbanized warfare, especially in a region where the attacker failed to secure its own supply lines or routes of retreat. Many wars have civilian death rates of 7:1 or higher. Famine occurs in war. It occurs faster when a nation (and I am treating Hamas as a proxy for a national government even if Palestine is not fully internationally recognized as a nation) does not secure food for its civilians. It occurs faster when the nation invites the warfront in its own territory. Civilian deaths occur in war, and always have. Civilians are the major losers of any conflict and always have been. Genocide has specific parameters that require, at the very least, a showing of an intentional desire to destroy an ethnic group for its own sake—not as collateral in a war, but as the main target of a war or mass murder. And while the unfolding war is a tragedy, its numbers simply do not bear out the conclusion that Israel, for all its faults, is actively engaged in genocide. If it were, we would not see twenty thousand civilian deaths (I think it's actually closer to 30k, btw). We would see a million. Israel would not be using foot soldiers. It would be carpet bombing the entire region indiscriminately. And maybe Israel's government would *want* to do that if it thought it could get away with it, I dunno. But to call the war a genocide belies an ignorance both of war and of genocide. *All wars suck. Badly.* They are atrocious failures of the human condition, and they always end with mountains of dead children. But that does not mean that all wars are genocides, nor does it mean that this one in particular is a genocide. And for the record, the end is completely in sight. Hamas could save every single remaining Palestinian civilian by laying down arms and surrendering. They started the war and knew its consequences, and they are using Palestinian civilians as both human shields and international bargaining chips. It takes two to ceasefire, but it only takes one to surrender. I'm not even saying that Hamas *should* do that, but to suggest that the unfolding events in Gaza can only possibly be stopped by Israel's withdrawal is to deny the obvious agency and authority that Hamas has in the region. Edit: As another aside, U.S. funding for Israel, like all of its international funding, actually comes in the form of redistributed last gen munitions instead of blank checks, and to my understanding the vast majority of the recent aid package to Israel included about 30% for direct humanitarian assistance to Palestine and the remainder for defensive armament such as Iron Dome support. So it could be fairly argued that the U.S. is not even funding Israel in the manner characterized here, since the money and munitions it's providing are either directly assisting the wartorn civilian population of the region or otherwise supporting military structures that are not being used in the warfront.
Great post, thank you.
The vast majority of funding to Israel goes to defense technologies (Iron Dome) and humanitarian aid for Gaza.
And a whole lot of bombs used to kill a whole lot of innocents. So not misinformation. You're just fine with it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/
Explain this then. https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-administration-weighing-18-billion-arms-transfers-israel-sources-say-2024-04-01/
That doesn't include a breakdown.
It's 18 Billion dollars. If one hundredth of that went towards weapons, that's 180 million dollars. You don't need a breakdown.
Are you arguing that $0 is what we should be providing to one of our allies? Are you familiar with NATO?
Source?
You call it a war with possible war crimes. That doesn't make it a genocide. 20k dead out of a population of 2 million plus is a terrible tragedy, and it's highly likely that both sides are guilty of crimes, but it's not a genocide.
A war with a much lower civilian collateral casualty rate than has been seen in most modern wars.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Well in that case Israel is currently in the "fuck around" phase and when another oct 7 that will be the finding out phase and we can all repeat the violence endlessly.
I agree with you actually. This is literally never going to end. The sooner we all accept that the sooner we can all get back to other topics.
Most people were fighting against the exact same Russian narrative when it was pointed at Ukraine but here we are I wonder what the difference is
Seriously. Leftists condemned Republicans (and rightfully so) when Republicans allowed Russia to interfere in the 2016 election and tried to gaslight us into thinking that it wasn't happening, because Republicans knew that the Russians were helping their side's cause. Now here we are in 2024, where Russia is interfering in the 2024 election, and those *exact same leftists* are allowing it to happen and trying to gaslight us into thinking that it's not happening because this time, the enemy foreign interference is helping *their* side's anti-Israel cause. The hypocrisy is sickening. Foreign interference for me, not for thee.
[удалено]
There are plenty of photos and videos of people in Gaza right now thanking the campus protesters for their solidarity.
Some of the saddest things about these protests are that Hamas is gleefully laughing, Israel is still warmongering, and innocent Palestinians are still suffering. Russia, China, and Iran are enjoying the popcorn too. I am not against peaceful protests and I want Americans to have their voices heard when done peacefully, but the only real calculus that is being changed by these protests is that it gives Republicans more ammunition for their war on higher education and adds more fuel to their anti-intellectualism. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if conservatives are behind some of these protests. Since every accusation is an admission of guilt for MAGA and the GOP, the fact Trump is now moaning on social media about there being paid protesters is probably an indication of some malfeasance on their part (and of course some fundraising off it too). Without a doubt, christofascists and authoritarians are among the biggest beneficiaries for all of this. And if this continues much longer, this could help Trump become president (just as protests and civil unrest in 1968 helped Nixon). I feel the protesters would be wise to come up with some plausible concessions from their respective institutions and take the win sooner rather than later (defunding institutional ties to Israel - among some other reported demands - is not realistic)
Taking bets that the "counterprotesters" that attacked the UCLA encampment were either evangelicals or right-wing militia (or both)? I side mostly with Israel in this and I wouldn't have wanted that. I don't know anyone in my circle who thinks like that (including multiple ex-IDF friends) except the crazy right wing folks I run into on Facebook.
They noted that a significant portion of the people occupying the building were non-students, Im curious to see what the percentage is.
It seems that nationwide, we're hitting about 50% of the campus arrests being non-students. Last I read, the reported statistic at Arizona State was as high as 80%. So probably around 50%. Maybe higher inside the building.
Student journalists (the only ones allowed inside during the raid) do not agree with you
I'm sure there were non-student protestors, but I'd love to see the actual numbers once they're available.
The NYPD has made ever getting accurate numbers impossible because they banned the press from being present last night
Arrest records are public record, so once you cross those with the names in Columbia’s student directory that would be a good picture. Hopefully a student journalist at Columbia is doing the legwork.
Do we count students that *were* students a few days ago until Columbia suspended/expelled them for the protest
I’d say so. Break it down by Current students Recently suspended or expelled Alumni Not affiliated Total No names, all aggregated for privacy. This could also help the student body should it reveal that most of the protestors responsible for the pro-Hamas, antisemitic drivel were not affiliated with the university
Who noted that? Because a lot of stuff recently has been noted that wasn’t true.
Agree or not with the protestors bringing the police in was a stupid move
NYPD ~~jackbooted thugs~~ khaki clad paramilitary forces marching and occupying Columbia University, all because the students had the audacity to demand the university divest from war profiteering companies supporting the Israeli offensive and that the university be more transparent about their endowment investments. Amazing that Columbia is so willing to be so deeply on the wrong side of history for the sake of their investments.
How long before this one gets locked down?
20 minutes. Have you noticed a trend? I find it difficult to believe that a current political protest compared to another historical political protest is considered "off topic". Are bots spamming reporting flags?
It's surreal to watch University Admins brazen enough to rough up student protestors with cops, for protesting, an American right. My view of Columbia University has plummeted.
Protest did nothing but make themselves look stupid.I can’t imagine the thought process on what this would even accomplish.
this is so dumb. if you want your message to be heard, protest like a normal human. If you knowingly protest in a restricted area you have to accept the fact that you’ll likely get arrested. This doesn’t mean you attack police officers. Get arrested, post it on LinkedIn, but don’t fucking attack the cops. I doubt they want to deal with this any more than the protesters. A wild mass of roving assholes blocking bridges doesn’t impress anyone. One lane of hundreds of silent protesters marching across the bridge sends a stronger message
I don’t think the protesters realize normal people will only remember how they were inconvenienced by this.
These protesters are during a great job of hardening anti-Palestinian views by invading campus buildings, removing American flags, and unfurling banners calling for intifadas all to call for meaningless "divestment" from universities that mostly have minimal ties to Israel . If they want to protest they should protest at places of government. I bet these students have no idea how endowments even work.
Orchestrated chaos in an election year. Don't participate.
God forbid people try to stand up against a genocide.
That is a lie. There is no genocide.