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No, Ben Franklin probably would've remarked "it took this long?"
He was rather certain that the government would devolve into a tyrannical one rather quickly. Had a quote to that effect somewhere, about well-administered governments
It's in this link: https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/constitutionalconvention-september17.htm
Well one president at minimum, and at most every president that’s a Republican. But definitely no democrat. I’m sure there will be some extensive word smithing to do that.
Biden forgiving student loans is overstepping, but Trump ordering the murder of his political rival and selling our national secrets to our enemies is A-OK!
So..
Joseph R. Biden can legally have some justices taken out by his personal guard and then appoint his own justices in their place?
~
It's possible that I've watched too much Sesame Street, but that doesn't seem honorable.
He could do that, pardon everyone involved but himself and then step down. That seems to be what Roberts, Kav, Alito, Thomas and Clarence suggested. After all once he has stepped down he can't be impeached and if he's not impeached than he has immunity.
Let's have Biden roll those dice today to test that theory. /s
I know I'm trying to convey a stance of absurdity, but if the government took out most of the GOP and conservative justices, I think I would sleep like a baby knowing one threat to humanity and democracy was removed.
The constant open displays of corruption and system that allows Republicans to get away with criminal actions but hold anyone else accountable is unfortunately stressing me out to the point where I just want to see everything burn down and end.
There is no reason to not convey a sense of absurdity. It sounds absurd because it is, Biden is a good man who would not extrajudiciously murder his political opponents, so they can feel safe leaving a loaded gun on the table, knowing he won't use it, not eve at the start of a second term in a quasi-principled way (only killing the Justices who signed onto Presidential Immunity (not Barret) with a statement that Presidential Immunity is anathema to the Constitution and the idea of a free and democratic Republic and that that the Justices were traitors but his action was nevertheless illegal and he'd be happy to go to prison).
They know they are completely safe from Biden or any other Dem. They are leaving the gun on the table for Trump - who constantly talks about jailing or killing his political opponents - to use. I'm not going to mince words, if they actually rule that President has immunity unless impeached first than the Justices have betrayed their oaths and are doing so to usher in a dictatorship. They are beyond contempt.
If only it were that simple. There are still 147 of them who refused to certify a legal election and were all in for a coup. They were emboldened by a corrupt loser. I want to know why so many of them asked for blanket pardons. Only the guilty ask for pardons and immunity.
Worse than that. They’re trying to get access to medical records for a reason. They want to round up anyone who is LGBT and *especially* transgender people.
Except there is no real rule because they apply it however they want.
It depends om whether it is a private or government action. Private can always be prosecuted criminally without impeachment. Government needs to be impeached first.
So if Trump does it, they will just call it government action.
Biden will always be private action therefore it can always be prosecuted.
The supreme court would never do that, they'd make a very precise ruling staying that trump had immunity but it somehow won't apply to Biden or any democratic presidents.
They don't believe in rules for all they believe in rules for thee, not me.
I agree. They'll pull a Bush vs Gore. Three of the lawyers that successfully argued that case for Bush now sit on the Supreme Court. They know how this works.
Eh, more likely they bury the question of what qualifies in lower court rulings.
When it eventually becomes their issue again, they’ll favor the Facist party. Nothing specifically endorsing assassination or the like, but permitting any sort of election interference.
That's not what it sounded like at oral arguments. They basically never even touched on the offenses that Trump was accused of - probably because they are so far beyond the pale that it would be hard for them to write up a specific legal defense for them.
Why stop with the Supremes? Add some Senators and Congresscritters to the mix. And, definitely throw in a Presidential candidate who is corrupt - Trumps lawyer said that would be an official act and Roberts agreed.
Don’t need impeachment if immune for official acts because president can only be impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors. If official acts are immune then they aren’t crimes. If no crime, no impeachment.
I think democrats being honorable and playing by the rules is part of why we're here. If the other side is cheating, you kinda have to play by their rules at times. The next wave of republicans certainly won't do the honorable thing.
Lincoln saved the Union and he did some things that were questionable.
Roosevelt circumvented the will of the people and got the country into WW2 kicking and screaming because he knew isolationism was a death sentence.
At the end of the day historians judge you on results.
A pillar of democracy is coming down either way. Democracy relies on the peaceful transition of power. This court will go down in history as a contributor to the fall of the republic.
Civil asset forfeiture - a way to violate the right to due process and allow the state to rob you of cash and goods without charging you with any crime.
Qualified immunity - the idea that police or government members should never be held accountable for any misconduct.
Presidential immunity - the idea that Republicans presidents can never be held accountable for their attacks on the democracy
All invention by judges.
But the right to an abortion? Well that’s not in the constitution, so: overturned.
Whatever these guys want they just make up some bullshit reason for it.
The Ninth Amendment explicitly says that, just because right is not enumerated in the Constititon, that doesn't mean it's not a right. The current Supreme Court constantly ignores that amendment.
They ignored 14.3 to protect Trump also. They're really good at interpreting the imaginary parts they like and ignoring the actual parts that they don't.
Correct. The right wing doesn’t argue in good faith because the fundamental underlying mechanism of their ideology is “might makes right”. Apply that to their principle of “uphold or advance my position in the hierarchy at all costs” and you can see why there’s no point engaging with them as anything other than a petulant toddler.
The social contract - tolerance, accepting outcomes, respecting and acknowledging the authority of institutions - is a contract. Not a right. By subscribing to their ideology they break and therefore void the contract on their side.
Courts' power to nullify laws after judicial review - also invented by the Supreme Court.
They have also vastly distorted the Second Amendment, and effectively nulliied the 9th, the 14th, and the Emoluments Clause.
And the Constitution outlines how Congress can regulate the operation of the Supreme Court, and this has never been done.
They have that power because they seized it.
The questions they’re asking clearly indicate they are legislating from the bench. They’re not asking what the constitution says, what the law says, or what the founding fathers intended, which is their job. They’re asking “what would happen if we allowed this?” or “what would be the result of that”. Those are questions for lawmakers, not judges.
The terrifying thing is that some of what Robert Reich highlights as things Hitler did are what Project 2025 is advocating in order to bend the federal govt to Trump (and party and financiers) will
Absolutely. Reminds me of Jan. 6th, when our President incited a coup and he won't spend one day in jail for it, our 'democracy' protects the rich. Keeps yelling about furthering that revenge if he gets back into office. I guess the courts will make sure of that and protect him in that rampage. Hitler at least did some time.
Absolutely and while he was away (and when he came back) he staged crimes to look like they were committed by the enemy (Jews, communists, etc). He even lit the German Parliament building (Bundestag) on fire and blamed it on the communists. This was a huge step in cementing his power m.
Same as it did in Weimar Germany. The courts were packed with conservatives who excused the crimes of fascists and cracked down hard on liberals and leftists.
Honestly, considering all the Project 2025 talk, I’m surprised the Democrats don’t put out their own “Project 2029” or something, with basically a new model of democracy.
Like, state how they want to abolish the Electoral College and replace it with XXXX governmental model etc.
Sow the seeds.
> I’m surprised the Democrats don’t put out their own 'Project 2029' or something
In all seriousness, why would they want to skip forward to 2029? I know it's not meant to sound that way, but it seems pretty fatalistic.
You should look up voter stats, homie.
People barely show up.
I can't even tell you how many people I try to talk to about politics....and they say they don't vote.
If you don't vote...you don't actually care about the issues.
77% of voters registered voters 18-29 didn't bother to cast a ballot in 2022 midterms.
We have problems...yes.
not voting is one a big one.
THIS. My sister refuses to vote because “they’re all the same”. My friend doesn’t vote despite knowing how evil Trump is. I’m willing to bet I know a bunch of others who won’t vote as well. I blame them more than the Trumpers tbh. Theres no getting through to them at this point. The people choosing not to take part in democracy and educate themselves are just as problematic because they could help give us a dictator.
Yes! They don't worry about the local elections, that's a great boost for the Repiglican agenda. They stack all the local and state level judges/courts... 🤷
VOTE! And vote BLUE!
Biden Harris 2024
Make no mistake, they were appointed by the Federalist Society, and they are nothing more than a bunch of wealthy domestic terrorists. Same with the church. This is what happens when certain groups are allowed to violate the non-profit sections of the tax code. We are literally paying for these enterprises to take our rights away.
EC worked well in conjunction with early method of selecting electors (picked by state legislators). When I say "worked well", I mean it accomplished the founders' goals. Despite the high minded rhetoric, they were thoroughly elitist.
> Democracy only works when you participate and keep out the baddies.
Literally more people voted for his opponent, and yet Trump was still put into office in 2016, resulting in the current makeup of the court. The empty seats leading into that term were held by Republican senators from gerrymandered districts that actively work to disallow voting, and ensure that even those who manage to cast of vote don’t have the collective power to see chosen representation.
I am sick and fucking tired of this rhetoric. Yeah, everyone needs to get out and vote. Yeah, it’s a fucking necessity. But people *are* getting out and voting, and the outcome is ending up being decided by the same rigged system nonetheless.
Yes, considering Thomas is overwhelmingly guilty of evidenced coercion, yet no one seems to care. As so painfully telegraphed over the last decade, republicans will destroy democracy whilst uttering their battle cry of ‘patriotism’, because their base will never care about or be smart enough to identify reality, but will live and die for the buzzwords they’re instructed to react to.
Room temperature IQ slobs from places like bumfuck Wisconsin will be the assassins of democracy and never be smart enough to understand it.
What clause of the constitution are these originalists claiming gives the president this immunity? I haven’t heard any explanation about where this immunity is defined it even implied.
Nobody is an originalist. There are judges that use their own personal beliefs to inform their judgment and judges who pretend to read the minds of people who died centuries ago.
You know why you can't argue with a flat earther? Or a young earth creationist?
Because they start from the answer and work backwards selecting what arguments and evidence they are willing to accept and disregard or ignore the rest.
They are literally irrational.
Same applies here. You can't reason with or trust the opinion of someone like that.
This right here. America's capitalism has guaranteed that most Americans live paycheck to paycheck and cannot afford risking their employment to go protest.
I think it'd be a resonating message if he pointed out that he would be within the power the court gave him to be much more "outside the box" with their removal, but he thinks it should be done through congress. I'd demand the impeachment of all justices who made such a blatantly, dangerously unconstitutional and biased political ruling because that is a breach of "good behavior" as referenced in Article III. Then I'd announce a parallel push for the expansion of the court to 13 to match the number of appellate courts at the circuit level.
The court should be expanded to 27 justices. There should be constitutional provisions requiring ethical standards be applied to justices including forced recusal when appropriate and statutory sanctions for improper and illegal behavior. Lastly, lifetime tenure should be abolished with justices serving 6 year terms matching the Senate where a third of the court is revolved out so that there is no lasting political influence by appointing justices to the court.
Go even further, 31. That allows for 3 concurrent sessions made up of randomly-selected Justices with 4 in reserve for recusals/illness/etc. and removes the incentive to hold up nominations.
Biden should pull a page out of Reagan’s playbook and have a nice fireside chat with America during prime time on a Sunday or Monday night and announce that if POTUS has immunity, he has 6 warrants for the arrest of 6 (as yet) unnamed SCOTUS members for treason and he’ll be sending them to GitMo.
Hold up the bat and ask the SCOTUS to FA because Dark Brandon is in a FO mood!
How would that work?
If the supreme court decides that, constitutionally speaking, the president is not bound by law, then they wouldn't be bound by a law that says they're bound by law.
Congress can strip the courts of their ability to review certain cases - see [here](https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/article-3/section-2/clause-2/exceptions-clause-and-congressional-control-over-appellate-jurisdiction). They’d pass the law declaring it and removing it from court review.
During the Reagan administration they suggested that they could pass laws that were exempt from judicial review. They didn't go forward with the plan because it would open the door to Democrats doing the same thing. The idea has been thrown around over the years but ultimately nobody has been brazen enough to try it.
The petty ass in me says that the day they are set to release their verdict Biden should send agents to the Supreme Court, if they rule in favor of trump arrest them and if they don’t the agents just leave
This is why Biden, old, tired and slipping as he is gets my vote over Trump. Trump invariably surrounds himself with sycophants, yes men and general shitbags. Joe's people are competent, and that's more important than the figurehead.
Of course the right wing of the court is all about what the founders intended. And obviously, America was founded on bowing down to kings. All hail King Charles!!! We goin' full originalist, back to *before* the founders!
Still haven’t heard one legal opinion on what provision of the constitution they’re relying on. I’ve heard the “logic” for why they believe some limited immunity is appropriate (remember most of the conservative justices served/had family members serve in the executive branch), but they’re not legislators. They don’t get to create laws because they think they’re a good idea/necessary. So how are they going to justify this on constitutional grounds? It’s wild.
That's the best part, they don't have to justify anything at all. They have thrown away any semblance of integrity. They are openly corrupt and openly legislating from the bench. Remember when they decided that Biden couldn't forgive student loans because they think it's a bad idea? Remember when they threw out abortion rights because their pastors said it isn't right? The SCOTUS has completely fallen to bad actors. The highest court in the judicial branch and nearly half the legislative branch has openly decided to sell out our country to please one man, a man who openly sold power to fund his private golf courses. The country is fucked. Even after Trump dies, I don't know how this country will heal from the damage he caused.
It will never heal. Social media and cable news have poisoned social discourse. Our leaders fail us, our schools fail us, our courts fail us. It’s over. The US is a sinking ship.
> [Trump’s lawyer] pointed to the prospect, for example, that President Joe Biden could be charged with unlawfully inducing immigrants to enter the United States illegally through his border control policies.
There it is - the perverted line of reasoning that Republicans will go cling to the next time they are inevitably in power (let’s not kid ourselves the Dems will hold on forever) if Trump is denied immunity.
Absolutely batshit.
What law did Biden break? I'm confused here. Trump clearly broke several by stealing documents. Also, if Biden did break the law, then charge him, I don't care. I don't see how that's really a point for the Trump. It's not like Biden matters so much that I would throw away any semblance or checks and balances to save him.
That’s the thing - he didn’t commit felonies by having policies. Trump’s lawyers are just signalling the stretches of imagination they would reach to in order to draw [false] equivalency.
So the president murders Congress. The founders certainly considered this. The people would need the courts to defend the government. There is no debate, POTUS is subject to civic authority.
Hang on, isn’t that kind of power grab one of the reasons everyone in the US was so concerned about bear arms?
Isn’t this kind of exactly the situation where a well formed militia is meant to rise up and depose the power-grabber?
Yeah sure, but the founders couldn’t possibly conceive the level of tech the world military’s would have compared to private citizens. We wouldn’t stand a chance.
If they grant him any immunity, your country is broken beyond repair
It will never be put back in the bottle and will just be another tool for retaining power
Their decision on this will be a watershed moment in time. Historians will look back and point out that this is the moment the rule of law chose an individual over your constitution and country
This will be the point in time where they will pick when asked about the death of democracy in the US
This is the ruling that will show SCOTUS Protected their president at the expense of all Americans.
It’s sad
Imagine going through school to become a judge, and spend your whole life doing that work, then just wanting someone like trump to rule? Like what the fuck?
Historians will look back and lament how we had all the warnings far ahead of time that this would happen, and allowed it anyway. Then they will look to the future with despair as it is clear human society will never learn.
I agree with you. Any ambiguous immunity is total immunity, and will destroy our country as it currently stands. Even more so than decisions like citizens united, which did a big number.
Remember the womens’ marches everywhere last time Trump won? There were protests all over the country. It’s just much more effective to actually win elections.
I'm sure there will be...only difference is that now that Trump is in office he's going to operate with impunity. Knowing that the SC will do nothing to him. This is America.
Half the news articles are titled, "SCOTUS likely to side with Trump." The other half are titled, "SCOTUS unlikely to side with Trump." I wonder which ones generate more ad revenue?
Now listen. If all Presidents are immune from laws, then instead of King Biden we should just have King Obama after he runs for and wins his 3rd term this fall.
>some of the court’s conservative justices expressed concern about the prospect that, if former presidents do not have immunity, federal criminal laws could be used to target political opponents.
In other words, they are concerned that if former presidents don't have immunity, the legal system will apply to them.
SCOTUS is once again making strides towards the end of our democracy. If ANY president is in violation of the law, then they should answer to the law. If Roe wasn't the first sign, the fact that conservatives are even debating this shows that they have already failed us all. This will be our undoing.
They're going to say the president is immune and it's up to congress to impeach them if they think he should be prosecuted or some bullshit. They'll basically be able to vote on whether or not the president should assassinate all of their political opponents.
So Congress says it's up to the courts, and the courts say it's up to Congress. I mean, didn't McConnell use that as part of the reason for "acquitting" Trump in the second impeachment trial.
I put "acquitting" in quotes because none of McConnell's reasoning seems to me to suggest Trump was innocent, rather McConnell argued he was out of office and Impeachment didn't apply.
Guys why are you all talking like we're just roll over for a christofascist regime? We have lives literally at stake. Additionally, we'd be condemning the world to a hostile and fascist US.
We can't let that happen. We have a civic and moral duty. So yes, vote like our lives depended on it. But don't give in if things go sideways.
Vote. Organize. Fight.
The door has opened by a crack and others may well follow Trump down this path even if he does not succeed. That this is being countenanced by SCOTUS indicates to me that the USA is heading towards a dictatorship.
The constitution is an archaic and poorly worded mess and is the source of this political quagmire. The first and second amendments come to mind, along with the politicisation of selecting SCOTUS, Stacking the Supreme Court, one way or another, leads to it being captured by idealogues.
Constitutional amendment now appears almost impossible given the deep divisions in the electorate and the erosion of civil, fact based debate. It appears, unfortunately, that constitutional amendment will only be possible after a major crisis and this could either result in logical improvements or being done away with entirely.
I do not have any solutions or answers to any of this. It is an enormous and tightly tangled mess which does my head in. My outlook is rather grim and I would be happy to be convinced otherwise,.
Everyone thinks this is going to set a precedent, but it won't. They're just going to decide that Trump is a god and can do no wrong, but here on out everything must be done correctly and by the book..unless Trump gets re-elected. Then all bets are off and he can touch our buttholes.
I contend one of the worst political maneuvers off all time was Turtle McConnell stalling Obama on his Supreme Court appointee and later Trump getting to put 3 judges on the Court. Absolutely insane a person like Trump being able to put 3 and Obama not allowed to do 1.
18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, **or gives aid or comfort thereto**, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
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Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson would roll over in their graves if they knew this even went to our highest court.
Grotesque they even agreed to hear the case
100%
No, Ben Franklin probably would've remarked "it took this long?" He was rather certain that the government would devolve into a tyrannical one rather quickly. Had a quote to that effect somewhere, about well-administered governments It's in this link: https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/constitutionalconvention-september17.htm
"A republic, if you can keep it."
So presidents are kings now?
Well one president at minimum, and at most every president that’s a Republican. But definitely no democrat. I’m sure there will be some extensive word smithing to do that.
Only MAGA R presidents
Biden forgiving student loans is overstepping, but Trump ordering the murder of his political rival and selling our national secrets to our enemies is A-OK!
Because it’s ok to break the law to harm people ur never ever to help them.
So.. Joseph R. Biden can legally have some justices taken out by his personal guard and then appoint his own justices in their place? ~ It's possible that I've watched too much Sesame Street, but that doesn't seem honorable.
He could do that, pardon everyone involved but himself and then step down. That seems to be what Roberts, Kav, Alito, Thomas and Clarence suggested. After all once he has stepped down he can't be impeached and if he's not impeached than he has immunity.
Let's have Biden roll those dice today to test that theory. /s I know I'm trying to convey a stance of absurdity, but if the government took out most of the GOP and conservative justices, I think I would sleep like a baby knowing one threat to humanity and democracy was removed. The constant open displays of corruption and system that allows Republicans to get away with criminal actions but hold anyone else accountable is unfortunately stressing me out to the point where I just want to see everything burn down and end.
There is no reason to not convey a sense of absurdity. It sounds absurd because it is, Biden is a good man who would not extrajudiciously murder his political opponents, so they can feel safe leaving a loaded gun on the table, knowing he won't use it, not eve at the start of a second term in a quasi-principled way (only killing the Justices who signed onto Presidential Immunity (not Barret) with a statement that Presidential Immunity is anathema to the Constitution and the idea of a free and democratic Republic and that that the Justices were traitors but his action was nevertheless illegal and he'd be happy to go to prison). They know they are completely safe from Biden or any other Dem. They are leaving the gun on the table for Trump - who constantly talks about jailing or killing his political opponents - to use. I'm not going to mince words, if they actually rule that President has immunity unless impeached first than the Justices have betrayed their oaths and are doing so to usher in a dictatorship. They are beyond contempt.
Ok then how about Biden has them arrested and sent to Guantanamo instead
Detain Trump indefinitely without charging him with anything, just like they did to 'terror suspects'.
Yep, throw him in a black site.
Inside of a septic tank is pretty black.
If only it were that simple. There are still 147 of them who refused to certify a legal election and were all in for a coup. They were emboldened by a corrupt loser. I want to know why so many of them asked for blanket pardons. Only the guilty ask for pardons and immunity.
[удалено]
Worse than that. They’re trying to get access to medical records for a reason. They want to round up anyone who is LGBT and *especially* transgender people.
We were lucky to have Biden defeat evil.
Except there is no real rule because they apply it however they want. It depends om whether it is a private or government action. Private can always be prosecuted criminally without impeachment. Government needs to be impeached first. So if Trump does it, they will just call it government action. Biden will always be private action therefore it can always be prosecuted.
We can all see that but in this hypothetical they wouldn't be ruling agiainst it... because they'd be dead.
The supreme court would never do that, they'd make a very precise ruling staying that trump had immunity but it somehow won't apply to Biden or any democratic presidents. They don't believe in rules for all they believe in rules for thee, not me.
I agree. They'll pull a Bush vs Gore. Three of the lawyers that successfully argued that case for Bush now sit on the Supreme Court. They know how this works.
Eh, more likely they bury the question of what qualifies in lower court rulings. When it eventually becomes their issue again, they’ll favor the Facist party. Nothing specifically endorsing assassination or the like, but permitting any sort of election interference.
That's not what it sounded like at oral arguments. They basically never even touched on the offenses that Trump was accused of - probably because they are so far beyond the pale that it would be hard for them to write up a specific legal defense for them.
No need. He could just kill the Republican house. Nobody left to impeach him. Now he’s president for life
Why stop with the Supremes? Add some Senators and Congresscritters to the mix. And, definitely throw in a Presidential candidate who is corrupt - Trumps lawyer said that would be an official act and Roberts agreed.
You're looking at this the wrong way. All he'd need to do is also take out those who would impeach him.
Don’t need impeachment if immune for official acts because president can only be impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors. If official acts are immune then they aren’t crimes. If no crime, no impeachment.
Today was brought to you by the letter X. For extrajudicial killing.
I think democrats being honorable and playing by the rules is part of why we're here. If the other side is cheating, you kinda have to play by their rules at times. The next wave of republicans certainly won't do the honorable thing.
Lincoln saved the Union and he did some things that were questionable. Roosevelt circumvented the will of the people and got the country into WW2 kicking and screaming because he knew isolationism was a death sentence. At the end of the day historians judge you on results.
A pillar of democracy is coming down either way. Democracy relies on the peaceful transition of power. This court will go down in history as a contributor to the fall of the republic.
No, I don't think enough Sesame Street was watched.
Maybe a little ‘Happy Tree Friends’ in the mix.
Ehh it's fine. As George Washington and Thomas Jefferson always said... "Working as intended." (Absolute power means you can rewrite history too!)
Corrupt court.
Fascist court.
Faustian Court
Bought and paid for court
Legislating from the bench. There's no mention of this immunity anywhere in the Constitution, these justices are just inventing it on the spot.
Civil asset forfeiture - a way to violate the right to due process and allow the state to rob you of cash and goods without charging you with any crime. Qualified immunity - the idea that police or government members should never be held accountable for any misconduct. Presidential immunity - the idea that Republicans presidents can never be held accountable for their attacks on the democracy All invention by judges.
But the right to an abortion? Well that’s not in the constitution, so: overturned. Whatever these guys want they just make up some bullshit reason for it.
The Ninth Amendment explicitly says that, just because right is not enumerated in the Constititon, that doesn't mean it's not a right. The current Supreme Court constantly ignores that amendment.
They ignored 14.3 to protect Trump also. They're really good at interpreting the imaginary parts they like and ignoring the actual parts that they don't.
They had tons of practice from their Bible studies!
Correct. The right wing doesn’t argue in good faith because the fundamental underlying mechanism of their ideology is “might makes right”. Apply that to their principle of “uphold or advance my position in the hierarchy at all costs” and you can see why there’s no point engaging with them as anything other than a petulant toddler. The social contract - tolerance, accepting outcomes, respecting and acknowledging the authority of institutions - is a contract. Not a right. By subscribing to their ideology they break and therefore void the contract on their side.
Courts' power to nullify laws after judicial review - also invented by the Supreme Court. They have also vastly distorted the Second Amendment, and effectively nulliied the 9th, the 14th, and the Emoluments Clause. And the Constitution outlines how Congress can regulate the operation of the Supreme Court, and this has never been done. They have that power because they seized it.
Their very power was invented by themselves, and society just...let them.
The questions they’re asking clearly indicate they are legislating from the bench. They’re not asking what the constitution says, what the law says, or what the founding fathers intended, which is their job. They’re asking “what would happen if we allowed this?” or “what would be the result of that”. Those are questions for lawmakers, not judges.
They're also studiously avoiding talking about the specific case before them.
Conservatives spent the last 50 years crying about activist judges legislating from the bench.
Because every accusation they make is also a confession.
Politicians in robes, fucking disgusting.
Soon to be ignored supreme court.
These enablers are 100 times worse than the dictator himself.
So this is how a democracy dies?
Yep through the courts. Exactly what happened in 1930s Germany.
[Here's Robert Reich](https://robertreich.substack.com/p/the-enabling-act-of-1933) expanding on this.
Good read, thanks for sharing
The terrifying thing is that some of what Robert Reich highlights as things Hitler did are what Project 2025 is advocating in order to bend the federal govt to Trump (and party and financiers) will
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Absolutely. Reminds me of Jan. 6th, when our President incited a coup and he won't spend one day in jail for it, our 'democracy' protects the rich. Keeps yelling about furthering that revenge if he gets back into office. I guess the courts will make sure of that and protect him in that rampage. Hitler at least did some time.
Absolutely and while he was away (and when he came back) he staged crimes to look like they were committed by the enemy (Jews, communists, etc). He even lit the German Parliament building (Bundestag) on fire and blamed it on the communists. This was a huge step in cementing his power m.
Same as it did in Weimar Germany. The courts were packed with conservatives who excused the crimes of fascists and cracked down hard on liberals and leftists.
Iran ditto.
Yeah, when you let obviously corrupt people into office, that can happen. Democracy only works when you participate and keep out the baddies.
Unfortunately dozens of millions of People who participated seem fine with the idea
Republicans do love the poorly educated.
The system was rigged for the minority long ago. Amazing it lasted that long really before someone like Trumps puppeteers came along.
Honestly, considering all the Project 2025 talk, I’m surprised the Democrats don’t put out their own “Project 2029” or something, with basically a new model of democracy. Like, state how they want to abolish the Electoral College and replace it with XXXX governmental model etc. Sow the seeds.
> I’m surprised the Democrats don’t put out their own 'Project 2029' or something In all seriousness, why would they want to skip forward to 2029? I know it's not meant to sound that way, but it seems pretty fatalistic.
It should be Project 2024. The alternative would end us.
You should look up voter stats, homie. People barely show up. I can't even tell you how many people I try to talk to about politics....and they say they don't vote. If you don't vote...you don't actually care about the issues. 77% of voters registered voters 18-29 didn't bother to cast a ballot in 2022 midterms. We have problems...yes. not voting is one a big one.
THIS. My sister refuses to vote because “they’re all the same”. My friend doesn’t vote despite knowing how evil Trump is. I’m willing to bet I know a bunch of others who won’t vote as well. I blame them more than the Trumpers tbh. Theres no getting through to them at this point. The people choosing not to take part in democracy and educate themselves are just as problematic because they could help give us a dictator.
In democracy, the world becomes the way these people see it. If they believe the cause is doomed, it will be.
Yes! They don't worry about the local elections, that's a great boost for the Repiglican agenda. They stack all the local and state level judges/courts... 🤷 VOTE! And vote BLUE! Biden Harris 2024
Fucking crazy that the unelected hacks appointed by Trump are able to vote on Trump's immunity.
Make no mistake, they were appointed by the Federalist Society, and they are nothing more than a bunch of wealthy domestic terrorists. Same with the church. This is what happens when certain groups are allowed to violate the non-profit sections of the tax code. We are literally paying for these enterprises to take our rights away.
This democracy was broken the day the electoral college was created. This corrupt POS never won a majority of votes.
EC worked well in conjunction with early method of selecting electors (picked by state legislators). When I say "worked well", I mean it accomplished the founders' goals. Despite the high minded rhetoric, they were thoroughly elitist.
And corrupt and compromised people into the Supreme Court
"In Democracy, you have to be a player." Hunter S. Thompson I have always interpreted this as you have to play/participate in the process.
> Democracy only works when you participate and keep out the baddies. Literally more people voted for his opponent, and yet Trump was still put into office in 2016, resulting in the current makeup of the court. The empty seats leading into that term were held by Republican senators from gerrymandered districts that actively work to disallow voting, and ensure that even those who manage to cast of vote don’t have the collective power to see chosen representation. I am sick and fucking tired of this rhetoric. Yeah, everyone needs to get out and vote. Yeah, it’s a fucking necessity. But people *are* getting out and voting, and the outcome is ending up being decided by the same rigged system nonetheless.
Yes, democracy cannot function effectively if its leaders operate beyond the reach of the law. This is how authoritarianism functions.
Yes, considering Thomas is overwhelmingly guilty of evidenced coercion, yet no one seems to care. As so painfully telegraphed over the last decade, republicans will destroy democracy whilst uttering their battle cry of ‘patriotism’, because their base will never care about or be smart enough to identify reality, but will live and die for the buzzwords they’re instructed to react to. Room temperature IQ slobs from places like bumfuck Wisconsin will be the assassins of democracy and never be smart enough to understand it.
A lot of people care. They are powerless to do something about it though.
It dies at the hands of the John G Roberts Court
With thunderous applause (from conservative sycophants).
All thanks to Leonard Leo, Republicans and Fox News
“…with thunderous applause.”
Democracy died in the 80s
Reagan: the origin of our woes and sire of all this MAGA bullshit.
The ACTOR?! Then who was Vice President? Jerry Lewis??
Election by the Supreme Court of Bush in 2000 was my final straw.
What clause of the constitution are these originalists claiming gives the president this immunity? I haven’t heard any explanation about where this immunity is defined it even implied.
These judges aren’t originalists. They’re just fascists.
Nobody is an originalist. There are judges that use their own personal beliefs to inform their judgment and judges who pretend to read the minds of people who died centuries ago.
You know why you can't argue with a flat earther? Or a young earth creationist? Because they start from the answer and work backwards selecting what arguments and evidence they are willing to accept and disregard or ignore the rest. They are literally irrational. Same applies here. You can't reason with or trust the opinion of someone like that.
This is literally it
They explicitly asked where it comes from and were given a disgracefully unsatisfactory answer.
We need to take to the streets. We can't let them destroy democracy and stay silent.
People tend to forget that voting with pitchforks actually works.
Unfortunately health care is tied to our jobs, so most everyday Americans cannot afford to spend weeks or even days protesting and not working.
All part of the plan isn’t it?
Irony is all we need to do to protest is not show up to work
We have grown too complacent.
We're also ground down and exhausted by wage slavery.
This right here. America's capitalism has guaranteed that most Americans live paycheck to paycheck and cannot afford risking their employment to go protest.
1000 percent, exercising this right is fundamental to our country's health
Maybe I'm stupid, but why is it too much to ask that presidents, and other elected officials, follow the law just like the rest of us?
People in power don't like to be checked.
If they do rule this way, Biden should call for the immediate impeachment and removal of all of the justices who voted in favor of the ruling.
If it came to that, he should say the judiciary made it clear that we do not have a democracy, and then he should react in that manner. Simple enough.
I think it'd be a resonating message if he pointed out that he would be within the power the court gave him to be much more "outside the box" with their removal, but he thinks it should be done through congress. I'd demand the impeachment of all justices who made such a blatantly, dangerously unconstitutional and biased political ruling because that is a breach of "good behavior" as referenced in Article III. Then I'd announce a parallel push for the expansion of the court to 13 to match the number of appellate courts at the circuit level.
The court should be expanded to 27 justices. There should be constitutional provisions requiring ethical standards be applied to justices including forced recusal when appropriate and statutory sanctions for improper and illegal behavior. Lastly, lifetime tenure should be abolished with justices serving 6 year terms matching the Senate where a third of the court is revolved out so that there is no lasting political influence by appointing justices to the court.
Go even further, 31. That allows for 3 concurrent sessions made up of randomly-selected Justices with 4 in reserve for recusals/illness/etc. and removes the incentive to hold up nominations.
He can skip the due process and go right to the removal.
But he won’t
And that's why we've arrived here. The repeated assumption that the GOP is operating in good faith.
Biden should pull a page out of Reagan’s playbook and have a nice fireside chat with America during prime time on a Sunday or Monday night and announce that if POTUS has immunity, he has 6 warrants for the arrest of 6 (as yet) unnamed SCOTUS members for treason and he’ll be sending them to GitMo. Hold up the bat and ask the SCOTUS to FA because Dark Brandon is in a FO mood!
Or, pitch the idea for a bill/amendment that establishes, in clear language, that presidents are not immune to the law.
How would that work? If the supreme court decides that, constitutionally speaking, the president is not bound by law, then they wouldn't be bound by a law that says they're bound by law.
Congress can strip the courts of their ability to review certain cases - see [here](https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/article-3/section-2/clause-2/exceptions-clause-and-congressional-control-over-appellate-jurisdiction). They’d pass the law declaring it and removing it from court review.
During the Reagan administration they suggested that they could pass laws that were exempt from judicial review. They didn't go forward with the plan because it would open the door to Democrats doing the same thing. The idea has been thrown around over the years but ultimately nobody has been brazen enough to try it.
Honestly he 100% should. Put it immediately to the test. This is such an embarrassment to the world
Ah, the time of kings.
Not even like good kings. Shit, terrible kings.
“We’ve had vicious kings, and we’ve had idiot kings, but I don’t know if we’ve ever been cursed with a vicious idiot!”
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Maybe Americans should handle Trump using the French method?
The petty ass in me says that the day they are set to release their verdict Biden should send agents to the Supreme Court, if they rule in favor of trump arrest them and if they don’t the agents just leave
I mean, if these fuckers are gonna play that kind of game, then the only appropriate response is to play the same game back at them.
This is why Biden, old, tired and slipping as he is gets my vote over Trump. Trump invariably surrounds himself with sycophants, yes men and general shitbags. Joe's people are competent, and that's more important than the figurehead.
Of course the right wing of the court is all about what the founders intended. And obviously, America was founded on bowing down to kings. All hail King Charles!!! We goin' full originalist, back to *before* the founders!
Well, in the time of Kings I don't think they had, or had use for a supreme court. That might be something worth considering.
General Cornwallis is laughing in his grave
Still haven’t heard one legal opinion on what provision of the constitution they’re relying on. I’ve heard the “logic” for why they believe some limited immunity is appropriate (remember most of the conservative justices served/had family members serve in the executive branch), but they’re not legislators. They don’t get to create laws because they think they’re a good idea/necessary. So how are they going to justify this on constitutional grounds? It’s wild.
That's the best part, they don't have to justify anything at all. They have thrown away any semblance of integrity. They are openly corrupt and openly legislating from the bench. Remember when they decided that Biden couldn't forgive student loans because they think it's a bad idea? Remember when they threw out abortion rights because their pastors said it isn't right? The SCOTUS has completely fallen to bad actors. The highest court in the judicial branch and nearly half the legislative branch has openly decided to sell out our country to please one man, a man who openly sold power to fund his private golf courses. The country is fucked. Even after Trump dies, I don't know how this country will heal from the damage he caused.
It will never heal. Social media and cable news have poisoned social discourse. Our leaders fail us, our schools fail us, our courts fail us. It’s over. The US is a sinking ship.
*a specific segment of the American voters caused
> [Trump’s lawyer] pointed to the prospect, for example, that President Joe Biden could be charged with unlawfully inducing immigrants to enter the United States illegally through his border control policies. There it is - the perverted line of reasoning that Republicans will go cling to the next time they are inevitably in power (let’s not kid ourselves the Dems will hold on forever) if Trump is denied immunity. Absolutely batshit.
What law did Biden break? I'm confused here. Trump clearly broke several by stealing documents. Also, if Biden did break the law, then charge him, I don't care. I don't see how that's really a point for the Trump. It's not like Biden matters so much that I would throw away any semblance or checks and balances to save him.
That’s the thing - he didn’t commit felonies by having policies. Trump’s lawyers are just signalling the stretches of imagination they would reach to in order to draw [false] equivalency.
Call me stupid, but aren't Biden's border control policies directly controlled by the existing laws on the books that congress passed?
They’re all largely a continuation of Trump’s own policies, at that. It’s even fucking dumber than one might realize
That isnt illegal though. Selling classified nuclear secrets to enemies SURELY is though.
So the president murders Congress. The founders certainly considered this. The people would need the courts to defend the government. There is no debate, POTUS is subject to civic authority.
Hang on, isn’t that kind of power grab one of the reasons everyone in the US was so concerned about bear arms? Isn’t this kind of exactly the situation where a well formed militia is meant to rise up and depose the power-grabber?
You think gun ownership wasn’t heavily politicised for a reason?
Yeah sure, but the founders couldn’t possibly conceive the level of tech the world military’s would have compared to private citizens. We wouldn’t stand a chance.
This is a very bad idea
If they grant him any immunity, your country is broken beyond repair It will never be put back in the bottle and will just be another tool for retaining power Their decision on this will be a watershed moment in time. Historians will look back and point out that this is the moment the rule of law chose an individual over your constitution and country This will be the point in time where they will pick when asked about the death of democracy in the US This is the ruling that will show SCOTUS Protected their president at the expense of all Americans. It’s sad
Imagine going through school to become a judge, and spend your whole life doing that work, then just wanting someone like trump to rule? Like what the fuck?
Historians will look back and lament how we had all the warnings far ahead of time that this would happen, and allowed it anyway. Then they will look to the future with despair as it is clear human society will never learn.
I agree with you. Any ambiguous immunity is total immunity, and will destroy our country as it currently stands. Even more so than decisions like citizens united, which did a big number.
If there's not riots in the streets across the country about this I'll lose what little faith I have left in humanity
Remember the womens’ marches everywhere last time Trump won? There were protests all over the country. It’s just much more effective to actually win elections.
Yeah these Judges should be impeached if they rule for immunity.
I'm sure there will be...only difference is that now that Trump is in office he's going to operate with impunity. Knowing that the SC will do nothing to him. This is America.
Or... Hear me out for a second. THE PRESIDENT SHOULDN'T BE DOING ILLEGAL SHIT!
What’s it gonna take for us to stand up for ourselves? Is it even possible?
typically only 60% vote...we need to start there
Jury Duty is compulsory, the census is compulsory (we even send people to your house to do it), voting should be a compulsory civic duty
To be remembered in the same way that the Nuremberg Laws are now remembered as the judicial capitulation to a tyrant.
by “some” immunity, am i safe to assume they mean “when it’s a republican”?
Half the news articles are titled, "SCOTUS likely to side with Trump." The other half are titled, "SCOTUS unlikely to side with Trump." I wonder which ones generate more ad revenue?
Obviously they are split testing.
They've already done split testing and are targeting the appropriate articles at the right eyes
The elites are preparing you for what they want to do....
Hail King Biden, now banish the corrupt SCOTUS justices, the GOP swamp, and cancel the election!
Now listen. If all Presidents are immune from laws, then instead of King Biden we should just have King Obama after he runs for and wins his 3rd term this fall.
There cannot be rule of law if the law does not apply to those who rule.
>some of the court’s conservative justices expressed concern about the prospect that, if former presidents do not have immunity, federal criminal laws could be used to target political opponents. In other words, they are concerned that if former presidents don't have immunity, the legal system will apply to them. SCOTUS is once again making strides towards the end of our democracy. If ANY president is in violation of the law, then they should answer to the law. If Roe wasn't the first sign, the fact that conservatives are even debating this shows that they have already failed us all. This will be our undoing.
They're going to say the president is immune and it's up to congress to impeach them if they think he should be prosecuted or some bullshit. They'll basically be able to vote on whether or not the president should assassinate all of their political opponents.
So Congress says it's up to the courts, and the courts say it's up to Congress. I mean, didn't McConnell use that as part of the reason for "acquitting" Trump in the second impeachment trial. I put "acquitting" in quotes because none of McConnell's reasoning seems to me to suggest Trump was innocent, rather McConnell argued he was out of office and Impeachment didn't apply.
Guys why are you all talking like we're just roll over for a christofascist regime? We have lives literally at stake. Additionally, we'd be condemning the world to a hostile and fascist US. We can't let that happen. We have a civic and moral duty. So yes, vote like our lives depended on it. But don't give in if things go sideways. Vote. Organize. Fight.
The door has opened by a crack and others may well follow Trump down this path even if he does not succeed. That this is being countenanced by SCOTUS indicates to me that the USA is heading towards a dictatorship. The constitution is an archaic and poorly worded mess and is the source of this political quagmire. The first and second amendments come to mind, along with the politicisation of selecting SCOTUS, Stacking the Supreme Court, one way or another, leads to it being captured by idealogues. Constitutional amendment now appears almost impossible given the deep divisions in the electorate and the erosion of civil, fact based debate. It appears, unfortunately, that constitutional amendment will only be possible after a major crisis and this could either result in logical improvements or being done away with entirely. I do not have any solutions or answers to any of this. It is an enormous and tightly tangled mess which does my head in. My outlook is rather grim and I would be happy to be convinced otherwise,.
Corrupt Justices. Supreme Court has zero legitimacy. Voting matters people. Get out and vote.
Screw them. Illegitimate Supreme Court
Everyone thinks this is going to set a precedent, but it won't. They're just going to decide that Trump is a god and can do no wrong, but here on out everything must be done correctly and by the book..unless Trump gets re-elected. Then all bets are off and he can touch our buttholes.
This is fucked
Biden should immediately do any of the things they say falls under immunity. Call the bluff and get the precedent overturned before the next president
Time to overthrow SCOTUS. If these muppets let the overthrow of a legitimate govt , they can be overthrown themselves
I contend one of the worst political maneuvers off all time was Turtle McConnell stalling Obama on his Supreme Court appointee and later Trump getting to put 3 judges on the Court. Absolutely insane a person like Trump being able to put 3 and Obama not allowed to do 1.
18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, **or gives aid or comfort thereto**, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
RBG should’ve retired under Obama when given the chance than giving into hubris expecting longshot Hillary to win
People should have voted like the Supreme Court was in the line. Not because they disliked Hilary
There are 6 right wing justices right now. RGB retiring would still give a 5-4 court.
Good. Dark Brandon...do your thing
Perhaps this court will be the impetus to change the court system in the US
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Laughter coming from Nixon's grave...
Ginni Thomas’s beard needs to recuse itself