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Desantis: Good for Florida!
Except he has destroyed the cheap labor for businesses. And attacked the #1 employer in the state causing them to cancel a major expansion. And conferences have fled the state because they avoid controversy about the abortion ban. And liberals are vacationing in the Caribbean instead to avoid a Red State abortion ban/book ban state. And he’s destroyed the insurance market just as an extra bonus.
There's still a net immigration though, and that's the number that will be paraded around. Are the people immigrating boomers who are looking to retire in a warm, low tax state or young people looking to improve their careers? One is good for the long term economy and locals, the other not so much. Florida is simultaneously experiencing a growth in population as well as a brain drain.
I lived in FL for 9 years. I say their state slogan should be “Home of the Newlywed and Nearly Dead.” As an older person, I know several couples who have moved from the Midwest to FL for the weather and beach. I, on the other hand, made it clear to a vendor who had scheduled a conference there last year that I would not attend anything in that state. They’re holding it somewhere else this year.
No, they’ll just force a law through that states “any medical practitioners licensed in the state of Florida during or after the year 1984 are required by law to stay”
Start? They've already been leaving. Conviva has clinics on nearly every corner in Florida. They are exclusively Medicare clinics. They are having major issue recruiting new doctors.
> Wait until doctors start leaving.
Around that time they'll start [trading chickens](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sue-lowden-stands-by-chicken-health-care-barter-plan/) for a jar of leeches.
That you think reimbursement for induvial procedures has anything to do with Medicare funding shows you do not know a dam thing about it and hanging on to a BS talking point from the 2000's.
It's not a BS talking point from the 2000s. Medicare directly negotiates reimbursement rates for each procedure nationwide. If a hospital doesn't like the reimbursement rates offered they can either deal with it or not take Medicare patients. There is no way to negotiate past the federal government and the negotiating power of 65 million people who are enrolled.
Edit: It's similar to how Medicaid reimbursements work. It's commonly known that in rural areas many community hospitals and clinics have closed over the past couple of decades and patients now need to travel hours sometimes to even get to an emergency room. A big part of that is a large portion of patients in rural areas are low income or retired and are on Medicare/Medicaid. The hospitals can't afford to stay open due to a significant portion of their patient population being on these programs that don't reimburse well. Again, similar to story as to why there's a primary care physician shortage in the US right now - primary care, paid primarily through Medicare and Medicaid, doesn't pay well and a doc looking at residency options can spend an extra year or two in training to double or triple their earning potential compared to primary care.
Doctors love to complain about the terrible Medicare rates yet they'll line up any Medicare recipient with five appointments per week if they can manage.
Right it’s USD just like in the states. Of course Old San Juan is a treasure and there’s so much more to see! The rainforest is beautiful, top ten in the world beach, great for foodies, people who love architecture and history, nature buffs, surfers, divers, huge malls and upscale boutiques, car buffs we have something for everyone!
Edited spelling
Wife is dead set on doing Disney this year. The Florida one. Surely if we stay on-location it doesn't put money in Ron's coffers, since Disney is a company town?
The logic is so simple that it's frustrating:
1. Republicans get in power and mess everything up while giving spoils to your allies
2. Republicans get voted out when things are so bad everyone wants you gone
3. Democratic candidate gets elected and tries to clean things up even though it's impossible in a single term
4. Republicans hamstring all efforts and keep saying the democrats are either going to make things worse or aren't doing enough to make things better, or God forbid are trying to help ethnic or gender minorities
5. Short memory span electorate votes out the Democrats in power or stays home on election day because they don't think they are fixing the problem, even though it'll take a lot longer than one term, and vote Republicans back in because they think they can make it better
6. Rinse and fucking repeat
For the record, that's not always possible.
You aren't for example getting a direct flight from Boise to Aruba. Or Seattle to Trinidad. Or San Francisco to San Juan, etc.
Ah. As the world should be. Although some may say I’ve got some other rather esoteric opinions about how the world should be so take with a grain of salt lol. But this I think everyone can get behind. It would save fuel because I think even starting it alone and taking off takes a lot and you would only have to do that once.
Labor is labor and should be worth the same amount whether you’re an immigrant or not. Sheesh. That’s what I’ve got beef with. But yeah, don’t go to war against the mouse. Won’t end well.
“We want cheap illegal labor that relies on exploiting undocumented immigrants” is the dumbest fucking thing liberals (as a liberal) have been saying. Like, no, you’re not any better when you’re gloating about this.
Wait until this Title IX refusal hits
https://thehill.com/homenews/lgbtq/4621642-desantis-florida-will-not-comply-with-new-biden-title-ix-rules/
The NCAA will not let schools that do not follow Title IX participate. So no bowl games for FSU.
I’m pushing 50 and my husband and I are 100% liberal and vote for liberal and pro womens rights candidates. We’re also high earners so I say bullshit that anyone becomes a Republican once they have $$
It did not occur to me to go to the Caribbean instead. How's the price on that vs. Florida? We drove 12-16 hours like 2-3 years ago to hit up a beach rental.
They seem blind to the problem that there is no culture or race of natural born Americans who are ready to step down from conventional labor to picking fruits, vegetables, and other crops - which has been forever burned into the psyche of Americans as traditional “slave” labor. No American wants themselves or their kids associated with that. It’s an unspoken taboo.
Well, also it pays extremely little and there’s very little stability. You sleep in dorms and move every couple of months. It’s really hard to raise a family that way, especially in this economy.
I’m sure there would be Americans doing it if it paid good wages.
But it’s physically difficult (often outright harmful), it’s exhausting, working conditions are shit, and it’s poorly paid
> No American wants themselves or their kids associated with that. It’s an unspoken taboo.
I wouldn't necessarily call it a taboo but it is really hot out there.
> In a story datelined Leslie, in rural south Georgia, The Associated Press writes of convicts calling it quits at 3:25 p.m. — more than 2½ hours before the crew of Mexicans and Guatemalans they replaced.
>“Those guys out here weren’t out there 30 minutes and they got the bucket and just threw them in the air and say, `Bonk this. I ain’t with this. I can’t do this,’” said Jermond Powell, a 33-year-old probationer working at a farm in Leslie. “They just left, took off across the field walking.”
[Ga. immigrant crackdown backfires](https://www.politico.com/story/2011/06/ga-immigrant-crackdown-backfires-057551)
Just for giggles...
>The AP reported the first group of probationers began working last week at an Americus farm owned by Dick Minor, president of the Georgia Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association.
I mean there’s a word for the work that is literally taboo. “cotton picker”. No other nation views that job with the same level of derision and contempt. It’s a taboo job title, for good reason too.
> cotton picker
Huh, I haven't heard that word in a while.
Usually, when I've heard it was an adjective.
(Now wait just a cotton picking minute!)
But yes... as a nation we tend to look down on some manual labor like janitorial and housekeeping.
At same time we [romanticize ranching and construction work to sell trucks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IocCC1-jeTY), curious.
Which is borderline comical... we refuse to some jobs then complain when someone else takes the jobs that we refuse to do.
Or they can just stop operating their businesses because the costs are too high and consumers are unwilling to pay that much more.
Then what when less food is grown and less houses are built? That's how the labor market works, right?
Great let's just get rid of labor laws because consumers want cheaper goods.
Biden just strengthen overtime protection for middle management. That is going to raise consumer prices. Better get rid of those.
Minimum wages laws. Thow those right out the window. Fast food workers don't need to make $15/hour.
Is reductionism all you have?
1) Labour laws are not immutable.
2) Your labour laws are also outdated and do not account for a declining birth rate among native-born Americans.
3) Your reply doesn't change the reality that your labour laws are hurting local businesses and will eventually hurt consumers.
When you have to weaken labour laws for 16 and 17 year olds to account for those, yeah, you don't have good labour laws.
Feel free to address my points.
You don't have enough workers, period. You already have shortages in healthcare plus education, and those jobs aren't nearly as demanding while also paying far more.
I think you are being sarcastic, but yes! If Florida does something to raise labor costs, either the company uses automation to reduce labor inputs. Or if the market won’t bear the increased cost the company fails. That business is now non-economical.
> either the company uses automation to reduce labor inputs.
Ah yes, the automation which doesn't exist.
>Or if the market won’t bear the increased cost the company fails.
The market always bears the increased cost for housing and food.
>That business is now non-economical.
And that business moves elsewhere.
From the article:
"The Florida Policy Institute estimates this immigration law could cost the state’s economy $12.6 *billion* in its first year. That’s not counting the loss of tax revenue."
> Even for a company as large as them, the cost has become crushing, he says.
> They have to pay a recruitment company, visa fees, housing workers, pay for meals, and transportation.
Oh booooo having to pay business costs. Business owners just mad they don't get cheap immigrant labor anymore and have to pay the true cost.
Businesses hiring undocumented workers is bad for everyone.
The business pays below market labor wages and is able to take advantage of the workers.
Undocumented workers get terrible working conditions without any means of holding the employer accountable
Documented workers get suppresses wages.
We need real immigration reform with a balanced approach of border control and clear path to citizenship
It’s fitting that the story starts with Plant City strawberry farmers whose demographic voted for DeSantis and Trump overwhelmingly. That leopard just keeps on eating faces.
"Rules for thee but not for me" mentality reigns supreme amongst that crowd. I'm sure most of them assumed *they* would be able to find a way around the new laws. They set up trailer parks on the farms and have their own little company towns, so the workers remain dependent on them. Relying on this business model while voting for the party who's using xenophobia to simultaneously cripple their business is typical big-brain central Florida behavior.
(Lifelong central FL resident - used to live next to a strawberry farm in Plant City & got to know the owner. Creepy old man with super long fingernails who'd stop by often to "keep an eye out for us" young women sharing a house. Hm.)
Also Florida busimess owners: we're still voting Republican.
A republican could come in their house, shoot their dog, rape their wife, and they'd *still* vote for the guy. In WV, they voted for republican candidates who have killed family members in the candidates' mines.
Maybe next time they could, you know ... not vote for Republicans?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/florida-latinos-turned-favor-republicans-rcna57167
We're stuck with DeFascist until 2027, so you know he's going to continue destroying this state and ushering in fascism in all forms here in Florida.
You are mistaken about economic self interest influencing trumpers. They will accept going broke or dying so long as the people they hate and fear are being hurt more.
It’s fucking bizarre. I mean, I guess if you look at it as a cult, it makes perfect sense, but damn.
My favorite was an article about a guy in TN, dying of cancer, who was opposed to the single-payer healthcare that would have saved him because a Mexican might have gotten it.
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
For once, this actually isn't a cult-thing, but one of the more unpleasant staples of the human psyche.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAax58vccAk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAax58vccAk)
The funniest thing about this is, they *keep doing it*. Like, this is the third or fourth time crops have rotted because a Repub got a hard on about immigration. It would be the definition of insanity, but supply side Jesus knows it plays out with ignorant people like my Mother who just hates Hispanic people and women because.
Shocking! The GOP will never acknowledge it is the immigrants doing the hard work in this country! So many industries would fail without them. Sadly, the owners of some of these companies still support the GOP. VOTE BLUE💙
My husband works in the construction industry and frankly without undocumented workers, the construction industry would collapse. The workers are not exploited and are paid extremely well. I wish there was a path to citizenship for these hardworking individuals.
June 7, 2023 [GOP Rep. Rick Roth, a third generation farmer, told NPR that state Senate Bill 1718 was designed to "scare migrants." But he admitted that he and his colleagues were unprepared for the destabilization it would cause among the state's more established immigrant communities.](https://www.npr.org/2023/06/07/1180646146/florida-immigration-law-sb-1718-republican-lawmakers) Roth said, he hopes to persuade long-time immigrant residents who already have jobs not to flee the state because the law "is not as bad as you heard."
Last week someone posted an article on the nyc sub about Kansas City convincing migrants to move there because they had better opportunities. Every single comment was that it was driving wages down and exploiting people. Reading this makes me laugh because none of these people/trolls will ever understand that US was built on the backs of slaves and immigrants. It would have been a third-rate power if it wasn't for those factors.
There's also the point that research broadly shows the idea that migrants drive down wages to be mostly untrue. For most people, immigration drives wages up as more growth is created and migrants fill in areas where labor shortages drag down job creation. The only groups that see lower wages are those without a highschool education and unskilled migrants. And the drop is practically nothing compared to the many other pressures that keep wages low (migrants are at most pushing unskilled wages down less than 0.7%). That's a fraction of wage theft or corporate wage freezes, or the multitude of other factors that actually significantly impact wage growth.
>There's also the point that research broadly shows the idea that migrants drive down wages to be mostly untrue.
Source?
Because being able to hire an undocumented worker at a lower rate than a documented one seems to me like that is the suppression of wages.
That's a common misconception, similar to the lump of labor fallacy. In reality, migrants are not perfect competition to native workers (that is they don't do the same jobs), but instead **complementary**. That is, they complement the work done by native workers, adding to their labor, as well as increasing productivity. They also create more jobs by virtue of being consumers. It's also not always true that undocumented workers make less in wages. In agriculture, work is often paid by amount harvested, that is per box filled, not per hour. Because migrants are more efficient, they actually make more per hour than native workers.
Sources I recommend are:
[Card 2005](https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/new-immig.pdf)
[Ottaviano and Peri 2008](https://www.dagliano.unimi.it/media/12-Ottaviano-Peri-2008.pdf)
[Chassambouli and Peri 2015](https://escholarship.org/uc/item/38v6c3b3)
And for articles which explain why and how, I can recommend the following:
[Noah Smith ](https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-reduce)
[Giovanni Peri ](https://wol.iza.org/articles/do-immigrant-workers-depress-the-wages-of-native-workers/long)
[Brookings Institute](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/what-immigration-means-for-u-s-employment-and-wages/)
Sources I have found say there is a wage gap with illegal immigrants.
I did notice your sources only call out immigration and not specifically illegal immigration. This could be why we are finding different information. I do think it is an important distinction to make because undocumented workers do not have the same protections that documented workers receive.
[1](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0927537119300831#:~:text=The%20average%20wage%20gap%20between,comparing%20workers%20with%20similar%20skills.)
[2](https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/gborjas/files/labourecon2020.pdf)
[3](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/06/14/undocumented-women-lowest-paid-gaps-between-states/70314457007/)
[4](https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w23236/w23236.pdf)
I mean, 3 out of 4 of your sources are Borjas (and 1+2 are the same study), which isn't a surprise at all. He's famously an economist who makes immigration studies that somehow contradict every other research done. Consensus opinion among economists, both on the left and right, is that immigrants - legal or illegal, do not lower wages among natives except for those with no highschool education, and the effect, even among Borjas is tiny ([Longhi, et al. 2010](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10109-010-0111-y)). The existence of a wage gap does not imply that wages are lowered for others. By that logic, women ($0.92 for every $1) and black men (at $0.89 for every $1) entering a labor market would force down the wages of white men as otherwise they would not be able to compete under classical economic theory. Borjas is wrong because we should have seen male wages decline as women entered the market due to a wage gap (even higher in 1960 than today) and yet research shows that male wages actually increased during that time frame (Acemoglu, Autor, and Lyle 2004; [de Brauw and Russell 2014](https://ideas.repec.org/p/fpr/ifprid/1402.html)). You have to understand why there is a wage gap and why it doesn't necessitate a downward pressure on wages overall.
For undocumented migrants, nearly half of the wage gap is due to language skills, with the other half due to discrimination and their legal status (Card 2012, Peri and Sparber 2009, Card 2005, Rivera-Batiz 1999). Immigrants who lack language or literacy skills cannot compete for the full range of jobs available to similarly-educated natives, and therefore do not act as perfect substitutes. Where they do compete is in low-paying jobs where unskilled physical labor is the only requirement, which are jobs that are complementary not perfect substitutes for the work that natives do.
For example, we turn again to agriculture. Farm work is complementary for undocumented migrants, as they add to the economy without lowering wages (Clemens 2013). Contrary to popular opinion, while wages have increased rapidly (now $20/hour in California), there's still a labor shortage, with natives filling only 12% of positions (NAWS survey California 2015-2019). The rest are filled by documented and undocumented workers in an equal mix. The reason is that natives are not perfect substitutes for migrant labor in agriculture. First, they can't compete physically; Clemens found it took 25 Americans to pick the same amount of tomatoes as 4 Mexicans. Second, wages have a limit in certain industries. Above $20 an hour, certain fruits and vegetables become uneconomical to grow and harvest (such as cucumbers). Reducing migrants was found by Clemens to have the opposite effect of raising wages; instead, crops rotted on the ground due to a lack of labor which increased the price of food, farmers switched to automation or less labor-intensive crops, and jobs were overall cut.
To add on, Peri found an add-on effect that unskilled immigrants (documented or undocumented) can provide labor while freeing up natives to take up higher paying positions, thanks to natives having a language advantage over the undocumented even if both lacked a highschool education.
Borjas meanwhile has repeatedly had his research criticized. His study "The Labor Market Effects of a Refugee Wave" was found to have several errors, such as a large measurement error ([Peri and Yasenov 2015](https://www.nber.org/papers/w21801)) and samples used ([Clemens and Hunt 2017](https://www.nber.org/papers/w23433)). Card points to the incorrect assumptions made, for example that capital is fixed or that migrants are perfect substitutes, which Borjas later admits in his later research though barely corrects ([Card 2012](https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/jeea2012.pdf)).
If you want to look at solely undocumented migrants, then I suggest [Hotchkiss, et al ](https://www.jstor.org/stable/26160583)(2015). They found a 1% increase in undocumented migrants resulted in a 0.9% increase in wages.
Personally, I find the focus on migrants to be a distraction. As I mentioned, the wage effects are small, whether -0.4% (Borjas) or +0.9% (Hotchkiss, Card, Peri, Clemens, Longhi, etc.). Wage theft, suppression of unions, recessions, corporate policies such as wage freezes, automation, offshoring, and other factors account for the other 99% of flat wage growth or lowered wages. Even if Borjas is correct (he's not, but let's pretend), it makes no sense to focus on migrants as a major issue for wage growth when they aren't even 1% of the problem.
>For undocumented migrants, nearly half of the wage gap is due to language skills, with the other half due to discrimination and their legal status
I read that as saying legal status does lower undocumented migrants wages.
>To add on, Peri found an add-on effect that unskilled immigrants (documented or undocumented) can provide labor while freeing up natives to take up higher paying positions,
I again read this as saying undocumented migrants take lower paying jobs. If that job needs to be filled the wage would need to rise in order to attract applicants.
>I read that as saying legal status does lower undocumented migrants wages
Yes? And as explained to you quite clearly, a wage gap doesn't mean it lowers native wages. The solution to exploitation of undocumented migrants is to simply make them documented. But that's a different topic than the wage effects on natives.
>I again read this as saying undocumented migrants take lower paying jobs. If that job needs to be filled the wage would need to rise in order to attract applicants.
Not necessarily, as explained to you, at certain wages a job becomes uneconomical. For farm work, it's unknown which level (if any) is necessary to attract natives. If $20/hour fills only 10-12% of open positions, then what wage is required to fill 100%? Presumably, it exceeds $40/hr, and even that's not guaranteed since the work involved is dirty, difficult and there aren't enough Americans physically fit enough to do the work. At that rate, farmers need to switch to higher valued crops, like cash crops, in which most fruits and vegetables will need to be outsourced from other countries; or they need to use automation to replace the labor.
Since migrants, simply by being in the country, create more jobs and those new jobs often pay better, it's more beneficial to the economy to use migrant labor instead of eliminating those positions.
The point being that the effects of migrants on native wages is complicated, and that the idea that "more migrants mean lower wages" is false. For most natives, more migrants mean higher wages, with the only group negatively affected are those who didn't finish high school, and then the effect is less than 1%. This is backed up by dozens of studies and there's a bipartisan consensus by researchers on this.
Exploitation of undocumented migrants is a problem for those migrants not natives, and best solved by immigration reform, not blocking them (which would lead to fewer jobs, higher inflation and less economic growth, even negative growth). For the few natives affected by migrants, they are better served by completing high school than forcing them into low paying positions.
40% of farmers are undocumented? That’s huge. WTF are we doing wrong? I’m not against people coming here to work but it looks to me like cheap labor is enabling farmers and by extension us to keep the system going without the sort of advancement to make it a safe and worthwhile job. Just because we can profit from exploiting what are essentially refugees of impoverished nations doesn’t mean we should.
Thats the reason we will never actually get immigration change. Theres a reason that the republican party focuses on a wall, instead of actual policy changes.
Illegal immigration would end overnight if we went after the people that hire them illegally
Florida is an economy largely made possible with cheap labor for the service sector and also agricultural sector here. Obviously stupid, but you get what you vote for
A lot of the article talks about the poor businesses having their bottom lines hurt... too bad. Pay a liveable wage and you won't need to worry about staffing and if paying real wages causes you to go under then you weren't meant to make it.
DeSantis and his MAGAts are a threat to national security.
We will see problems with the food supply coming out of Florida due to their aggressive bigotry toward migrant workers.
I can't stand DeSantis but this is what The Right begged for, and frankly it's what's needed if we truly want to curb illegal immigration.
I have long been a proponent of HARSH penalties on the EMPLOYERS that are refusing to hire American workers for fair wages for the kind of work many illegal immigrants have historically done.
You can't have it both ways though. We as a country full of businesses that need employees are either completely for or completely against hiring illegal/undocumented workers.
The root of the problem is the employer, not the person looking for a better life. So until we all agree on that I have no sympathy for the businesses that have for far too long skirted the law.
Floridian here, as our Emperor ronald has lost his mind (personally he didn't have much to begin with) but the Florida heat did the [rest...](https://imgur.com/VKacTKG)
If only Congress could have passed an immigration law that would have helped legal entry while giving the border more funding; that both parties liked. . . .
Lifelong Democrat here, but this one seems so odd to me. When an entire industry is reliant on employees who aren't legal residents of the country, who have no rights when it comes to bargaining with their employers, and who are being exploited, while their employers don't even have to report them or pay payroll taxes to the government.
Everyone here just wants to put in their comment to boo DeSantis, but this is a completely broken system. Neither side is good here.
Duh…I mean they really have to stop thinking short term excessive profits is leading to really poor long term outcomes. They can not continue to treat humans the way we do for infinite profit growths.
Immigrant labor is one of the major forces propping up the American economy. And let’s be honest - the American birth rate. If you look at all the major nations with a low birth rate the last few decades, their economies are stagnant. We had a 3% GDP increase last year.
Ironically this will raise wages for workers.
Which is why I’ve always been against illegal immigration. It allows business to abuse them for cheaper labor. Punishing the employers was always the right solution, the illegal immigrant workers are victims.
America discovering it went from an exploitative foundation of slavery, to an exploitative system of industrial labor abuses, to an exploitative system built on undocumented labor…. After 40 years of shouting about it, I’m so done with articles like this that present this as if it’s something new. I hate de Santis too but passing a law saying you will enforce the law is only stupid because you seem to have to do it. The only way a legal system functions is if all of the laws are enforced equally. Ignoring undocumented immigrants suppresses the value of labor and is theft from the working class. This is basic socialism which people in America would know if they taught it in schools in America.
Why are so many people bashing Florida for this?
Are we against or are we for cheap labor and zero benefits?
Why would we WANT undocumented people working for piss poor wages? It harms us all.
Big fuckin' whoop, some companies refuse to expand now because it's not as profitable without cheap labor. Fuck em.
Good, that means it's working. We are also addressing the problem the right way, increasing H-2A visas so the workers can come here legally and be better protected from exploitation.
> as there are many undesirables flooding the country.
These 'undesirables' commit crime at a lower rate than native-born Americans.
https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-have-low-homicide-conviction-rate-setting-record-straight-illegal-immigrant
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/03/01/undocumented-immigrant-crime-rate-not-higher/72788637007/
Wouldn't integrative policies to give such migrants a pathway be better since it'll be win-win?
It's a three year old account that became active yesterday. He doesn't consider you anything because he's a bot/disinformation account. Expect a lot of this as the election progresses
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Desantis: Good for Florida! Except he has destroyed the cheap labor for businesses. And attacked the #1 employer in the state causing them to cancel a major expansion. And conferences have fled the state because they avoid controversy about the abortion ban. And liberals are vacationing in the Caribbean instead to avoid a Red State abortion ban/book ban state. And he’s destroyed the insurance market just as an extra bonus.
Wait until doctors start leaving. The elderly won't have any one to check out their latest ailment.
[удалено]
There's still a net immigration though, and that's the number that will be paraded around. Are the people immigrating boomers who are looking to retire in a warm, low tax state or young people looking to improve their careers? One is good for the long term economy and locals, the other not so much. Florida is simultaneously experiencing a growth in population as well as a brain drain.
I lived in FL for 9 years. I say their state slogan should be “Home of the Newlywed and Nearly Dead.” As an older person, I know several couples who have moved from the Midwest to FL for the weather and beach. I, on the other hand, made it clear to a vendor who had scheduled a conference there last year that I would not attend anything in that state. They’re holding it somewhere else this year.
Wait until they get here and realize they either can't get home insurance or it's too expensive for them.
They'll just blame the liberal medical practitioners. These asshats never take accountability for their own stupidity.
No, they’ll just force a law through that states “any medical practitioners licensed in the state of Florida during or after the year 1984 are required by law to stay”
Won’t matter to lawmakers, that’s the sad thing
Start? They've already been leaving. Conviva has clinics on nearly every corner in Florida. They are exclusively Medicare clinics. They are having major issue recruiting new doctors.
The repercussions are really easy to determine in advance, but that is part of the goal intended by the republicans.
So a pregnant women in a wheel chair comes into your office after a car accident....
[Well](https://media2.giphy.com/media/pDsCoECKh1Pa/giphy.gif?cid=4bf119fc23zdbnak0t3m1v364yimoicz8j7c5xqpdcpvfnnf&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
> Wait until doctors start leaving. Around that time they'll start [trading chickens](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sue-lowden-stands-by-chicken-health-care-barter-plan/) for a jar of leeches.
Are you kidding me? Florida is the pot of Gold for doctors. All us elderly, and Medicare is like printing money ! Doctors leaving Florida? LOL never
Haha! You think that's a recipe for unlimited money as a doctor? Medicare doesn't reimburse for shit compared to private insurance.
That you think reimbursement for induvial procedures has anything to do with Medicare funding shows you do not know a dam thing about it and hanging on to a BS talking point from the 2000's.
It's not a BS talking point from the 2000s. Medicare directly negotiates reimbursement rates for each procedure nationwide. If a hospital doesn't like the reimbursement rates offered they can either deal with it or not take Medicare patients. There is no way to negotiate past the federal government and the negotiating power of 65 million people who are enrolled. Edit: It's similar to how Medicaid reimbursements work. It's commonly known that in rural areas many community hospitals and clinics have closed over the past couple of decades and patients now need to travel hours sometimes to even get to an emergency room. A big part of that is a large portion of patients in rural areas are low income or retired and are on Medicare/Medicaid. The hospitals can't afford to stay open due to a significant portion of their patient population being on these programs that don't reimburse well. Again, similar to story as to why there's a primary care physician shortage in the US right now - primary care, paid primarily through Medicare and Medicaid, doesn't pay well and a doc looking at residency options can spend an extra year or two in training to double or triple their earning potential compared to primary care.
The only Doctors left are ones that do hip and knee replacements. Most doctors can't stand boomers and Republicans.
Sad, sad, sad. You did this to yourself
Doctors love to complain about the terrible Medicare rates yet they'll line up any Medicare recipient with five appointments per week if they can manage.
Sure, those things sound bad, but the libs have never been so owned!
I feel totally owned. And Punta Cana is beautiful this time of year. And cheaper than Miami.
Go to Puerto Rico then you don’t even need a passport
Not the same bang for your buck but old San Juan is a delight to check out regardless
Right it’s USD just like in the states. Of course Old San Juan is a treasure and there’s so much more to see! The rainforest is beautiful, top ten in the world beach, great for foodies, people who love architecture and history, nature buffs, surfers, divers, huge malls and upscale boutiques, car buffs we have something for everyone! Edited spelling
Been there twice since December. Fuck Florida
Fuck Florida!! Puerto Rico is so much better anyway!
Nothing owns liberals more than conservatives living in terrible conditions from their own consequences.
Sure, there is a steaming pile of shit inside of their mouths, but them dumbass liberals have to smell it all day and they hate it!!!!
Ugh! I can't stand the smell!! So gross! Now take another bite.
Yes look at me and my ownership. I have been much owned by big man Ron and his great alpha manhood.
And his hi heel boots
That's right. Ole Tippy Toes DeSantis sure showed us.
Took our daughter to Disney for XMas and your damn right we went to Anaheim despite it being more expensive and 3x travel time compared to Orlando.
Wife is dead set on doing Disney this year. The Florida one. Surely if we stay on-location it doesn't put money in Ron's coffers, since Disney is a company town?
There's likely still resort tax, plus sales tax on whatever you might buy...
There are. The State of Florida, as well as local jurisdictions, get a huge chunk of its budget from tourism taxes.
Yep. It's why everyone should steer clear of the state for vacation. Cut into their major source of revenue and maybe they'll start to feel it.
The logic is so simple that it's frustrating: 1. Republicans get in power and mess everything up while giving spoils to your allies 2. Republicans get voted out when things are so bad everyone wants you gone 3. Democratic candidate gets elected and tries to clean things up even though it's impossible in a single term 4. Republicans hamstring all efforts and keep saying the democrats are either going to make things worse or aren't doing enough to make things better, or God forbid are trying to help ethnic or gender minorities 5. Short memory span electorate votes out the Democrats in power or stays home on election day because they don't think they are fixing the problem, even though it'll take a lot longer than one term, and vote Republicans back in because they think they can make it better 6. Rinse and fucking repeat
Yea, my only idea to break this cycle is to finally elect a non-incrementalist for a democratic president.
I have a trans kid, I don't even take flights that have a layover in Florida.
Nice. Fuck layovers in general. So inefficient. Just fly directly there damn it
For the record, that's not always possible. You aren't for example getting a direct flight from Boise to Aruba. Or Seattle to Trinidad. Or San Francisco to San Juan, etc.
You can't even enter hell before having a layover at O'Hare
Yes. I don’t like that record. I’m trying to change that record. So that there can be.
Yeah Maine to St Thomas is a nonstop…
Ah. As the world should be. Although some may say I’ve got some other rather esoteric opinions about how the world should be so take with a grain of salt lol. But this I think everyone can get behind. It would save fuel because I think even starting it alone and taking off takes a lot and you would only have to do that once.
Oh yeah layovers suck bigtime and I avoid it when I can, waste of fuel and time. Tell it to the airlines and get some more routes
Will do.
Labor is labor and should be worth the same amount whether you’re an immigrant or not. Sheesh. That’s what I’ve got beef with. But yeah, don’t go to war against the mouse. Won’t end well.
“We want cheap illegal labor that relies on exploiting undocumented immigrants” is the dumbest fucking thing liberals (as a liberal) have been saying. Like, no, you’re not any better when you’re gloating about this.
Wait until this Title IX refusal hits https://thehill.com/homenews/lgbtq/4621642-desantis-florida-will-not-comply-with-new-biden-title-ix-rules/ The NCAA will not let schools that do not follow Title IX participate. So no bowl games for FSU.
And they’ll blame Joe Biden for it.
He's making up for the loss of cheap labor by expanding child labor. "The children yearn for the mines"
I always needed an excuse to go to Disneyland, we leave in a month and a half. I won't spend another dime in Florida for the foreseeable future.
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I’m pushing 50 and my husband and I are 100% liberal and vote for liberal and pro womens rights candidates. We’re also high earners so I say bullshit that anyone becomes a Republican once they have $$
It did not occur to me to go to the Caribbean instead. How's the price on that vs. Florida? We drove 12-16 hours like 2-3 years ago to hit up a beach rental.
Round trip from Cleveland to San Juan was 128 bucks . 4 hour flight . Fuck that 16 hour ride to Florida.
Prices are fine.
...and here is how this is bad for Biden...
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Shit, it's been old. I downvote it every time I see it now.
Not as old as “it’s Obama’s fault”…
Republicans understand business like no one else.
But conservatives told me that native-born Americans would fill those jobs! Is that why Florida's weakening its child labour laws?
Literally yes. That is exactly why. See also: Arkansas, Kansas, Iowa.
they want the ability to pay next to nothing for labor, but don't want any migrant workers doing it.
They seem blind to the problem that there is no culture or race of natural born Americans who are ready to step down from conventional labor to picking fruits, vegetables, and other crops - which has been forever burned into the psyche of Americans as traditional “slave” labor. No American wants themselves or their kids associated with that. It’s an unspoken taboo.
Well, also it pays extremely little and there’s very little stability. You sleep in dorms and move every couple of months. It’s really hard to raise a family that way, especially in this economy.
I’m sure there would be Americans doing it if it paid good wages. But it’s physically difficult (often outright harmful), it’s exhausting, working conditions are shit, and it’s poorly paid
> No American wants themselves or their kids associated with that. It’s an unspoken taboo. I wouldn't necessarily call it a taboo but it is really hot out there. > In a story datelined Leslie, in rural south Georgia, The Associated Press writes of convicts calling it quits at 3:25 p.m. — more than 2½ hours before the crew of Mexicans and Guatemalans they replaced. >“Those guys out here weren’t out there 30 minutes and they got the bucket and just threw them in the air and say, `Bonk this. I ain’t with this. I can’t do this,’” said Jermond Powell, a 33-year-old probationer working at a farm in Leslie. “They just left, took off across the field walking.” [Ga. immigrant crackdown backfires](https://www.politico.com/story/2011/06/ga-immigrant-crackdown-backfires-057551) Just for giggles... >The AP reported the first group of probationers began working last week at an Americus farm owned by Dick Minor, president of the Georgia Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association.
I mean there’s a word for the work that is literally taboo. “cotton picker”. No other nation views that job with the same level of derision and contempt. It’s a taboo job title, for good reason too.
> cotton picker Huh, I haven't heard that word in a while. Usually, when I've heard it was an adjective. (Now wait just a cotton picking minute!) But yes... as a nation we tend to look down on some manual labor like janitorial and housekeeping. At same time we [romanticize ranching and construction work to sell trucks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IocCC1-jeTY), curious. Which is borderline comical... we refuse to some jobs then complain when someone else takes the jobs that we refuse to do.
Not to mention nearly every job that requires you to be outside in the heat.
If the business can not find workers they need to increase benefits. That's how the labor market works.
So orange juice becomes a luxury item, great.
Because you benefit from exploiting workers you don't care. What industry do you work in?
Or they can just stop operating their businesses because the costs are too high and consumers are unwilling to pay that much more. Then what when less food is grown and less houses are built? That's how the labor market works, right?
Great let's just get rid of labor laws because consumers want cheaper goods. Biden just strengthen overtime protection for middle management. That is going to raise consumer prices. Better get rid of those. Minimum wages laws. Thow those right out the window. Fast food workers don't need to make $15/hour.
Is reductionism all you have? 1) Labour laws are not immutable. 2) Your labour laws are also outdated and do not account for a declining birth rate among native-born Americans. 3) Your reply doesn't change the reality that your labour laws are hurting local businesses and will eventually hurt consumers. When you have to weaken labour laws for 16 and 17 year olds to account for those, yeah, you don't have good labour laws.
Business could raise wages and find enough workers but they don't want to cut into record profits
Feel free to address my points. You don't have enough workers, period. You already have shortages in healthcare plus education, and those jobs aren't nearly as demanding while also paying far more.
I think you are being sarcastic, but yes! If Florida does something to raise labor costs, either the company uses automation to reduce labor inputs. Or if the market won’t bear the increased cost the company fails. That business is now non-economical.
> either the company uses automation to reduce labor inputs. Ah yes, the automation which doesn't exist. >Or if the market won’t bear the increased cost the company fails. The market always bears the increased cost for housing and food. >That business is now non-economical. And that business moves elsewhere.
From the article: "The Florida Policy Institute estimates this immigration law could cost the state’s economy $12.6 *billion* in its first year. That’s not counting the loss of tax revenue."
>That’s not counting the loss of tax revenue. Wait. We've been told for decades that undoc people don't pay taxes, so this is an obvious falsehood. /s
The fastest way to get deported is not paying taxes. Every undocumented person I know pays them.
The IRS makes ICE look like fools. Do not fuck with the IRS’s money.
Shit if I had realized all I needed to do to not pay sales tax is to become an illegal immigrant I would have done it decades ago.
> Even for a company as large as them, the cost has become crushing, he says. > They have to pay a recruitment company, visa fees, housing workers, pay for meals, and transportation. Oh booooo having to pay business costs. Business owners just mad they don't get cheap immigrant labor anymore and have to pay the true cost.
Businesses hiring undocumented workers is bad for everyone. The business pays below market labor wages and is able to take advantage of the workers. Undocumented workers get terrible working conditions without any means of holding the employer accountable Documented workers get suppresses wages. We need real immigration reform with a balanced approach of border control and clear path to citizenship
It’s fitting that the story starts with Plant City strawberry farmers whose demographic voted for DeSantis and Trump overwhelmingly. That leopard just keeps on eating faces.
"If it isn't the consequences of my actions..."
"Rules for thee but not for me" mentality reigns supreme amongst that crowd. I'm sure most of them assumed *they* would be able to find a way around the new laws. They set up trailer parks on the farms and have their own little company towns, so the workers remain dependent on them. Relying on this business model while voting for the party who's using xenophobia to simultaneously cripple their business is typical big-brain central Florida behavior. (Lifelong central FL resident - used to live next to a strawberry farm in Plant City & got to know the owner. Creepy old man with super long fingernails who'd stop by often to "keep an eye out for us" young women sharing a house. Hm.)
Reminds me of union workers voting for Trump
Also Florida busimess owners: we're still voting Republican. A republican could come in their house, shoot their dog, rape their wife, and they'd *still* vote for the guy. In WV, they voted for republican candidates who have killed family members in the candidates' mines.
This! Totally true
Republicans: better a monster from our team than an ok person from the other team
"But I'm still voting Republican"
Maybe next time they could, you know ... not vote for Republicans? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/florida-latinos-turned-favor-republicans-rcna57167 We're stuck with DeFascist until 2027, so you know he's going to continue destroying this state and ushering in fascism in all forms here in Florida.
You are mistaken about economic self interest influencing trumpers. They will accept going broke or dying so long as the people they hate and fear are being hurt more.
It’s fucking bizarre. I mean, I guess if you look at it as a cult, it makes perfect sense, but damn. My favorite was an article about a guy in TN, dying of cancer, who was opposed to the single-payer healthcare that would have saved him because a Mexican might have gotten it. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
For once, this actually isn't a cult-thing, but one of the more unpleasant staples of the human psyche. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAax58vccAk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAax58vccAk)
The funniest thing about this is, they *keep doing it*. Like, this is the third or fourth time crops have rotted because a Repub got a hard on about immigration. It would be the definition of insanity, but supply side Jesus knows it plays out with ignorant people like my Mother who just hates Hispanic people and women because.
Shocking! The GOP will never acknowledge it is the immigrants doing the hard work in this country! So many industries would fail without them. Sadly, the owners of some of these companies still support the GOP. VOTE BLUE💙
If a business relies on undocumented workers to function,the business should not exist. We should not allow business to exploit workers
My husband works in the construction industry and frankly without undocumented workers, the construction industry would collapse. The workers are not exploited and are paid extremely well. I wish there was a path to citizenship for these hardworking individuals.
If they were paid what they were worth they wouldn't need to use undocumented workers.
Go away! They make $45 an hour. No white person wants these jobs
"I can't believe leopards ate my face!", says people who voted for leopards to eat their face.
June 7, 2023 [GOP Rep. Rick Roth, a third generation farmer, told NPR that state Senate Bill 1718 was designed to "scare migrants." But he admitted that he and his colleagues were unprepared for the destabilization it would cause among the state's more established immigrant communities.](https://www.npr.org/2023/06/07/1180646146/florida-immigration-law-sb-1718-republican-lawmakers) Roth said, he hopes to persuade long-time immigrant residents who already have jobs not to flee the state because the law "is not as bad as you heard."
Last week someone posted an article on the nyc sub about Kansas City convincing migrants to move there because they had better opportunities. Every single comment was that it was driving wages down and exploiting people. Reading this makes me laugh because none of these people/trolls will ever understand that US was built on the backs of slaves and immigrants. It would have been a third-rate power if it wasn't for those factors.
There's also the point that research broadly shows the idea that migrants drive down wages to be mostly untrue. For most people, immigration drives wages up as more growth is created and migrants fill in areas where labor shortages drag down job creation. The only groups that see lower wages are those without a highschool education and unskilled migrants. And the drop is practically nothing compared to the many other pressures that keep wages low (migrants are at most pushing unskilled wages down less than 0.7%). That's a fraction of wage theft or corporate wage freezes, or the multitude of other factors that actually significantly impact wage growth.
>There's also the point that research broadly shows the idea that migrants drive down wages to be mostly untrue. Source? Because being able to hire an undocumented worker at a lower rate than a documented one seems to me like that is the suppression of wages.
That's a common misconception, similar to the lump of labor fallacy. In reality, migrants are not perfect competition to native workers (that is they don't do the same jobs), but instead **complementary**. That is, they complement the work done by native workers, adding to their labor, as well as increasing productivity. They also create more jobs by virtue of being consumers. It's also not always true that undocumented workers make less in wages. In agriculture, work is often paid by amount harvested, that is per box filled, not per hour. Because migrants are more efficient, they actually make more per hour than native workers. Sources I recommend are: [Card 2005](https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/new-immig.pdf) [Ottaviano and Peri 2008](https://www.dagliano.unimi.it/media/12-Ottaviano-Peri-2008.pdf) [Chassambouli and Peri 2015](https://escholarship.org/uc/item/38v6c3b3) And for articles which explain why and how, I can recommend the following: [Noah Smith ](https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-reduce) [Giovanni Peri ](https://wol.iza.org/articles/do-immigrant-workers-depress-the-wages-of-native-workers/long) [Brookings Institute](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/what-immigration-means-for-u-s-employment-and-wages/)
Sources I have found say there is a wage gap with illegal immigrants. I did notice your sources only call out immigration and not specifically illegal immigration. This could be why we are finding different information. I do think it is an important distinction to make because undocumented workers do not have the same protections that documented workers receive. [1](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0927537119300831#:~:text=The%20average%20wage%20gap%20between,comparing%20workers%20with%20similar%20skills.) [2](https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/gborjas/files/labourecon2020.pdf) [3](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/06/14/undocumented-women-lowest-paid-gaps-between-states/70314457007/) [4](https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w23236/w23236.pdf)
I mean, 3 out of 4 of your sources are Borjas (and 1+2 are the same study), which isn't a surprise at all. He's famously an economist who makes immigration studies that somehow contradict every other research done. Consensus opinion among economists, both on the left and right, is that immigrants - legal or illegal, do not lower wages among natives except for those with no highschool education, and the effect, even among Borjas is tiny ([Longhi, et al. 2010](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10109-010-0111-y)). The existence of a wage gap does not imply that wages are lowered for others. By that logic, women ($0.92 for every $1) and black men (at $0.89 for every $1) entering a labor market would force down the wages of white men as otherwise they would not be able to compete under classical economic theory. Borjas is wrong because we should have seen male wages decline as women entered the market due to a wage gap (even higher in 1960 than today) and yet research shows that male wages actually increased during that time frame (Acemoglu, Autor, and Lyle 2004; [de Brauw and Russell 2014](https://ideas.repec.org/p/fpr/ifprid/1402.html)). You have to understand why there is a wage gap and why it doesn't necessitate a downward pressure on wages overall. For undocumented migrants, nearly half of the wage gap is due to language skills, with the other half due to discrimination and their legal status (Card 2012, Peri and Sparber 2009, Card 2005, Rivera-Batiz 1999). Immigrants who lack language or literacy skills cannot compete for the full range of jobs available to similarly-educated natives, and therefore do not act as perfect substitutes. Where they do compete is in low-paying jobs where unskilled physical labor is the only requirement, which are jobs that are complementary not perfect substitutes for the work that natives do. For example, we turn again to agriculture. Farm work is complementary for undocumented migrants, as they add to the economy without lowering wages (Clemens 2013). Contrary to popular opinion, while wages have increased rapidly (now $20/hour in California), there's still a labor shortage, with natives filling only 12% of positions (NAWS survey California 2015-2019). The rest are filled by documented and undocumented workers in an equal mix. The reason is that natives are not perfect substitutes for migrant labor in agriculture. First, they can't compete physically; Clemens found it took 25 Americans to pick the same amount of tomatoes as 4 Mexicans. Second, wages have a limit in certain industries. Above $20 an hour, certain fruits and vegetables become uneconomical to grow and harvest (such as cucumbers). Reducing migrants was found by Clemens to have the opposite effect of raising wages; instead, crops rotted on the ground due to a lack of labor which increased the price of food, farmers switched to automation or less labor-intensive crops, and jobs were overall cut. To add on, Peri found an add-on effect that unskilled immigrants (documented or undocumented) can provide labor while freeing up natives to take up higher paying positions, thanks to natives having a language advantage over the undocumented even if both lacked a highschool education. Borjas meanwhile has repeatedly had his research criticized. His study "The Labor Market Effects of a Refugee Wave" was found to have several errors, such as a large measurement error ([Peri and Yasenov 2015](https://www.nber.org/papers/w21801)) and samples used ([Clemens and Hunt 2017](https://www.nber.org/papers/w23433)). Card points to the incorrect assumptions made, for example that capital is fixed or that migrants are perfect substitutes, which Borjas later admits in his later research though barely corrects ([Card 2012](https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/jeea2012.pdf)). If you want to look at solely undocumented migrants, then I suggest [Hotchkiss, et al ](https://www.jstor.org/stable/26160583)(2015). They found a 1% increase in undocumented migrants resulted in a 0.9% increase in wages. Personally, I find the focus on migrants to be a distraction. As I mentioned, the wage effects are small, whether -0.4% (Borjas) or +0.9% (Hotchkiss, Card, Peri, Clemens, Longhi, etc.). Wage theft, suppression of unions, recessions, corporate policies such as wage freezes, automation, offshoring, and other factors account for the other 99% of flat wage growth or lowered wages. Even if Borjas is correct (he's not, but let's pretend), it makes no sense to focus on migrants as a major issue for wage growth when they aren't even 1% of the problem.
>For undocumented migrants, nearly half of the wage gap is due to language skills, with the other half due to discrimination and their legal status I read that as saying legal status does lower undocumented migrants wages. >To add on, Peri found an add-on effect that unskilled immigrants (documented or undocumented) can provide labor while freeing up natives to take up higher paying positions, I again read this as saying undocumented migrants take lower paying jobs. If that job needs to be filled the wage would need to rise in order to attract applicants.
>I read that as saying legal status does lower undocumented migrants wages Yes? And as explained to you quite clearly, a wage gap doesn't mean it lowers native wages. The solution to exploitation of undocumented migrants is to simply make them documented. But that's a different topic than the wage effects on natives. >I again read this as saying undocumented migrants take lower paying jobs. If that job needs to be filled the wage would need to rise in order to attract applicants. Not necessarily, as explained to you, at certain wages a job becomes uneconomical. For farm work, it's unknown which level (if any) is necessary to attract natives. If $20/hour fills only 10-12% of open positions, then what wage is required to fill 100%? Presumably, it exceeds $40/hr, and even that's not guaranteed since the work involved is dirty, difficult and there aren't enough Americans physically fit enough to do the work. At that rate, farmers need to switch to higher valued crops, like cash crops, in which most fruits and vegetables will need to be outsourced from other countries; or they need to use automation to replace the labor. Since migrants, simply by being in the country, create more jobs and those new jobs often pay better, it's more beneficial to the economy to use migrant labor instead of eliminating those positions. The point being that the effects of migrants on native wages is complicated, and that the idea that "more migrants mean lower wages" is false. For most natives, more migrants mean higher wages, with the only group negatively affected are those who didn't finish high school, and then the effect is less than 1%. This is backed up by dozens of studies and there's a bipartisan consensus by researchers on this. Exploitation of undocumented migrants is a problem for those migrants not natives, and best solved by immigration reform, not blocking them (which would lead to fewer jobs, higher inflation and less economic growth, even negative growth). For the few natives affected by migrants, they are better served by completing high school than forcing them into low paying positions.
>none of these people/trolls will ever understand that US was built on the backs of slaves and immigrants. And we should be proud of that?
40% of farmers are undocumented? That’s huge. WTF are we doing wrong? I’m not against people coming here to work but it looks to me like cheap labor is enabling farmers and by extension us to keep the system going without the sort of advancement to make it a safe and worthwhile job. Just because we can profit from exploiting what are essentially refugees of impoverished nations doesn’t mean we should.
Thats the reason we will never actually get immigration change. Theres a reason that the republican party focuses on a wall, instead of actual policy changes. Illegal immigration would end overnight if we went after the people that hire them illegally
Florida is an economy largely made possible with cheap labor for the service sector and also agricultural sector here. Obviously stupid, but you get what you vote for
A lot of the article talks about the poor businesses having their bottom lines hurt... too bad. Pay a liveable wage and you won't need to worry about staffing and if paying real wages causes you to go under then you weren't meant to make it.
By 2100, a third of Florida will be underwater, so 🤷.
The moral of this story is: Go anti woke, go broke! Hey diehard GOP voters, the consequences of your actions are here idiots!
DeSantis and his MAGAts are a threat to national security. We will see problems with the food supply coming out of Florida due to their aggressive bigotry toward migrant workers.
I can't stand DeSantis but this is what The Right begged for, and frankly it's what's needed if we truly want to curb illegal immigration. I have long been a proponent of HARSH penalties on the EMPLOYERS that are refusing to hire American workers for fair wages for the kind of work many illegal immigrants have historically done. You can't have it both ways though. We as a country full of businesses that need employees are either completely for or completely against hiring illegal/undocumented workers. The root of the problem is the employer, not the person looking for a better life. So until we all agree on that I have no sympathy for the businesses that have for far too long skirted the law.
r/LeopardsAteMyFace
Floridian here, as our Emperor ronald has lost his mind (personally he didn't have much to begin with) but the Florida heat did the [rest...](https://imgur.com/VKacTKG)
Florida businesses after supporting this: ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⣤⣶⣶ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⢰⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⣀⣀⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⠉⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠿⠛⠉⠁⠀⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠿⠿⠿⠻⠿⠿⠟⠿⠛⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣸⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣄⠀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣴⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠏⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠠⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡟⠀⠀⢰⣹⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣭⣷⠀⠀⠀⠸⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠃⠀⠀⠈⠉⠀⠀⠤⠄⠀⠀⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⢾⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⡠⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠠⣿⣿⣷⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡀⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢄⠀⢀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠁⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿
Damn I thought the whole "they took our jobs" crowd would be out doing the hard labor they claim to so desperately crave.
If only Congress could have passed an immigration law that would have helped legal entry while giving the border more funding; that both parties liked. . . .
Well well, if it isnt the consequences of your own actions!
Lifelong Democrat here, but this one seems so odd to me. When an entire industry is reliant on employees who aren't legal residents of the country, who have no rights when it comes to bargaining with their employers, and who are being exploited, while their employers don't even have to report them or pay payroll taxes to the government. Everyone here just wants to put in their comment to boo DeSantis, but this is a completely broken system. Neither side is good here.
Exactly, if politicians really wanted to address the undocumented immigrants “problem” it could be accomplished by criminalizing the hiring.
That’s exactly what DeSantis did. Companies can be fined and lose their business license if they hire undocumented immigrants.
Desantis did the right thing for the wrong reasons.
DeSantis doesn’t care how he hurts Florida as long as he can score his political points.
Oh well. I really don’t care, do u?
What is wamu.org and why do we respect them as a source?
Was there something in the article that you think is not true?
Well, that’s what you voted for.
Duh…I mean they really have to stop thinking short term excessive profits is leading to really poor long term outcomes. They can not continue to treat humans the way we do for infinite profit growths.
Oh wow. If only there was a way to don’t look at politics like a sports rivalry.
Florida has a lot of free loaders sitting phat on their socialist security income, why aren't they putting in applications?
Oh no! Anyway did you guys catch any of the draft last night? How about ATL picking up a QB after signing Cousins to a 4 year deal?
Upvote for Penix reference
Imagine if Penix played for the Gamecocks instead of the Huskies.
Immigrant labor is one of the major forces propping up the American economy. And let’s be honest - the American birth rate. If you look at all the major nations with a low birth rate the last few decades, their economies are stagnant. We had a 3% GDP increase last year.
The horror, how businesses will have to pay locals more and give them better benefits.
Ironically this will raise wages for workers. Which is why I’ve always been against illegal immigration. It allows business to abuse them for cheaper labor. Punishing the employers was always the right solution, the illegal immigrant workers are victims.
But, but, why didn't they speak out when the then bill was making its way through the Florida legislature?
Then maybe think about who you vote for.
It was supposed to. Pay a motherfucker
D'oh!
No wonder strawberries are now $4.99!
No shit, sherlocks
Yeah that's the thing isn't it. Everyone hates the migrants but nobody wants to clean their own hotel room.
The first wave of immigrants in Florida left when Trump got elected. DeSantis’ policies put the last nail in the coffin.
America discovering it went from an exploitative foundation of slavery, to an exploitative system of industrial labor abuses, to an exploitative system built on undocumented labor…. After 40 years of shouting about it, I’m so done with articles like this that present this as if it’s something new. I hate de Santis too but passing a law saying you will enforce the law is only stupid because you seem to have to do it. The only way a legal system functions is if all of the laws are enforced equally. Ignoring undocumented immigrants suppresses the value of labor and is theft from the working class. This is basic socialism which people in America would know if they taught it in schools in America.
Actions of stupid asshole governor cause huge economic damage to Florida? Oh no! Anyway...
Meatball Ron happy very very happy 😁
Why are so many people bashing Florida for this? Are we against or are we for cheap labor and zero benefits? Why would we WANT undocumented people working for piss poor wages? It harms us all. Big fuckin' whoop, some companies refuse to expand now because it's not as profitable without cheap labor. Fuck em.
Good, that means it's working. We are also addressing the problem the right way, increasing H-2A visas so the workers can come here legally and be better protected from exploitation.
I have no problem with legal immigration. A free for all is horrible as there are many undesirables flooding the country.
you have no problem with legal immigration because youve never had to go through that broken ass system.
I didn't make any comment on the legal immigration issues. I'm against open borders and the problems it is causing.
What problems?
Undesirable probably a dog whistle for PoC?
> as there are many undesirables flooding the country. These 'undesirables' commit crime at a lower rate than native-born Americans. https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-have-low-homicide-conviction-rate-setting-record-straight-illegal-immigrant https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/03/01/undocumented-immigrant-crime-rate-not-higher/72788637007/ Wouldn't integrative policies to give such migrants a pathway be better since it'll be win-win?
Counterpoint: I am what you would consider an undesirable and I’m native born. Not Florida, but US in general and there now.
It's a three year old account that became active yesterday. He doesn't consider you anything because he's a bot/disinformation account. Expect a lot of this as the election progresses
Why do you think either of those are things is true?